--- Log opened Tue Feb 18 00:00:43 2014
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20140218 00:13:39< happygrue> is anyone a replay guru these days?  
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20140218 00:25:58< happygrue> Related:  does anyone know how hard it might be to have a checkbox for replays of current games on the server to be shrouded over (or blanked in some way) from displaying any info about units or sides until after the replay is over?  https://gna.org/bugs/?21405
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20140218 00:41:15< iceiceice> oh 
20140218 00:41:39< iceiceice> yeah i mean you would think we could make some kind of display lock that prevents any hexes from being drawn
20140218 00:43:31< iceiceice> if we had something like that i bet it would also be useful for this FR: https://gna.org/bugs/?func=detailitem&item_id=16733
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20140218 01:14:02< happygrue> ah, yes
20140218 01:14:07< happygrue> it would
20140218 01:27:11-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.11.10 (start of string+feature freeze) planned for February 22nd | asheviere (old server) will be shut down on 16th Feb 2014, migrate all stuff, cf dev mailinglist | 223 bugs, 350 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20140218 01:57:07< iceiceice> hi: i think i may have possible identified a bug in config.cpp , in the "merge_with" function
20140218 01:57:27< iceiceice> i am finding from debugging output that it seems to be creating a bunch of "__remove='' " keys in anything i apply it to
20140218 01:57:42< iceiceice> which is apparently harmless but seems unintended
20140218 01:58:08< shadowm> !log 67bb876ffaee4b995ab5ec82de954bc00adfb3a0
20140218 01:59:01< shikadibot> shadowm: Revision 67bb876ffaee (fendrin) on Mon Sep 30 04:56:20 2013:
20140218 01:59:01< shikadibot> shadowm: __remove= attribute. Deletes tags when merged.
20140218 01:59:01< shikadibot> shadowm:  
20140218 01:59:01< shikadibot> shadowm: A wml tag with the attribute set to yes will not be merged into but
20140218 01:59:01< shikadibot> shadowm: (+1 discarded lines)
20140218 01:59:01< shikadibot> shadowm: Web interface URL: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/commit/67bb876ffaee
20140218 01:59:01< shadowm> fendrin: ^ See iceiceice's question above.
20140218 01:59:28< iceiceice> i think these are being created right here: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/blob/master/src/config.cpp#L1261
20140218 02:01:01< iceiceice> based on looking at the header: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/blob/master/src/config.hpp#L405
20140218 02:02:13< iceiceice> so it seems that operator [] on configs has two overloads, one which returns const and one which doesn't,
20140218 02:02:24< iceiceice> the one which is not const creates an empty key if the key is found missing
20140218 02:02:24< iceiceice> and the const one doesnt
20140218 02:02:24< iceiceice> so i suggest maybe to use the other form in merge_with
20140218 02:02:40< fendrin> iceiceice: Good catch.
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20140218 03:02:57< mattsc> iceiceice: I am going to be a pedantic pita, but since there is a bug report on the ls:empty thingy, the changelog entry should cite the bug number ...  :P
20140218 03:03:34< iceiceice> ah ok 
20140218 03:03:36< iceiceice> sure
20140218 03:04:32< mattsc> Also, I can add the era proxy entry to the changelog, if you want me to.
20140218 03:05:08< mattsc> Btw, I assume you added that to the LuaWML wiki page?  (the site's still down so I cannot check it myself)
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20140218 03:12:02< iceiceice> yeah i did
20140218 03:13:16< iceiceice> sure i mean, you can do the changelog for that or work it out with AI0867
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20140218 03:16:00< mattsc> Which section would you like that in?
20140218 03:19:59< iceiceice> hmm i am looking at line 73...
20140218 03:20:04< iceiceice> maybe make a new section Lua API
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20140218 03:23:55< irker900> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 7428db5c245f / changelog: Update changelog with MP era config access in Lua by iceiceice/cbeck88 http://git.io/EsmqKQ
20140218 03:26:18< irker900> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth-old:master 9fb47d7f1f6f / data/lua/location_set.lua: negate the output of location_set:empty, fixing logic error and http://git.io/VLdF0w
20140218 03:26:20< irker900> wesnoth: cbeck88 wesnoth-old:master acbe949e0935 / changelog: Update changelog http://git.io/Yl7wbQ
20140218 03:26:22< irker900> wesnoth: cbeck88 wesnoth-old:master 7bcd9cb1af0e / changelog: Update changelog http://git.io/GVdv4Q
20140218 03:26:24< irker900> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 521f449c2b17 / changelog data/lua/location_set.lua: Merge pull request #97 from cbeck88/location_set_empty http://git.io/ZPms4w
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20140218 03:26:36< mattsc> iceiceice: ^
20140218 03:27:41< iceiceice> cool
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20140218 03:32:09< mattsc> iceiceice: I also marked the bug as fixed.
20140218 03:33:03< iceiceice> mattsc: ok thanks for that also :)
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20140218 04:15:12< shadowm> iceiceice: Hi, around?
20140218 04:15:17-!- happygrue [~happygrue@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20140218 04:16:01< iceiceice> shadowm: yup
20140218 04:16:06< iceiceice> shadowm: whats up?
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20140218 04:18:29< shadowm> iceiceice: I've seen a lot of patches from you as of late! I wonder if you'd like to join us as a red-name developer with commit access to the main repository?
20140218 04:19:39< iceiceice> shadowm: sure that would be great!
20140218 04:21:30< shadowm> iceiceice: Are you well familiarized with our guidelines for pushing to the repository? (That is, be on IRC to discuss your changes if needed, write good commit messages keeping the first (summary) line descriptive enough within 80 characters, don't ever ever ever use git push -f, and so on) :)
20140218 04:21:55< shadowm> Also, I presume you are subscribed to the developers ML since I've seen a few messages from you. If you aren't, that's also a thing to do.
20140218 04:22:36< iceiceice> shadowm: are there multiple dev mailing lists? i'm pretty sure i'm on one dev-talk but i dont know if theres another
20140218 04:22:59< shadowm> That's the only one.
20140218 04:23:43< iceiceice> ok good. regarding pushing guidelines, i'm not sure if i've read anything in print, so if there's anything besides what you just said i'm not sure if i'm familiar. but i've been paying attention to what others do
20140218 04:24:10< shadowm> That's pretty much it since we are horrible at deciding on this kind of thing.
20140218 04:24:29< shadowm> cbeck88, involution, and iceiceice are your github, gna.org, and forums account names respectively, right?
20140218 04:24:55< iceiceice> yes thats correct
20140218 04:27:06< shadowm> iceiceice: You are in! You'll also be given a welcome PM in the forums along with your Developers group membership... Eventually™.
20140218 04:27:22< shadowm> (Because wesnoth.org is dead, long live wesnoth.org.)
20140218 04:27:26< iceiceice> lol
20140218 04:27:38< iceiceice> wow thats great, i'm very happy to be a part of the community :)
20140218 04:27:52< shadowm> Don't forget to check the IRC logs for your name every morning/whenever you log into IRC as well.
20140218 04:28:19< shadowm> If you have a nickserv account on freenode you can also ask Ivanovic for a developer cloak (`/Whois shadowm` for an example).
20140218 04:28:50< iceiceice> the logs are maintained by the bot(s) right?
20140218 04:29:00< shadowm> By lobby, yes, and wesbot.
20140218 04:29:25-!- shadowm changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Wesnoth.org is dead | Alternate IRC logs on wesnoth.debian.net | 1.11.10 (start of string+feature freeze) planned for February 22nd | 223 bugs, 350 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20140218 04:29:45< shadowm> I have addded wesbot's to the channel topic in the meantime because irclogs.wesnoth.org is unavailable for the time being.
20140218 04:30:12< iceiceice> ah ok
20140218 04:31:52< _8680_> For guidelines in “print”, there’s <http://git-scm.com/book/ch5-2.html#Commit-Guidelines>, from the Git book.
20140218 04:35:16< iceiceice> _8680_: thanks
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20140218 07:22:19-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: Wesnoth.org is dead | Alternate IRC logs on wesnoth.debian.net | 1.11.10 (start of string+feature freeze) planned for February 22nd | 223 bugs, 350 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20140218 07:22:19-!- Topic set by shadowm [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] [Tue Feb 18 04:29:25 2014]
20140218 07:22:19[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20140218 07:22:19[ _8680_         ] [ DDR      ] [ fendrin  ] [ justinzane  ] [ noy            ] [ Smar    ] 
20140218 07:22:19[ AI0867         ] [ DHost    ] [ Fortescue] [ knotwork    ] [ nurupo         ] [ Soliton ] 
20140218 07:22:19[ alcedine_      ] [ ejls     ] [ Gallaecio] [ lobby       ] [ Octalot        ] [ timotei_] 
20140218 07:22:19[ ChrisOelmueller] [ elias    ] [ iceiceice] [ loonycyborg ] [ Rhonda         ] [ ToBeFree] 
20140218 07:22:19[ cjhopman_      ] [ EliDupree] [ irker900 ] [ MaraJade    ] [ sachith500     ] [ Upth    ] 
20140218 07:22:19[ Coffee_irc     ] [ enchilado] [ Ivanovic ] [ matthiaskrgr] [ Samual         ] [ vultraz ] 
20140218 07:22:19[ Crab_          ] [ Espreon  ] [ iwaim___ ] [ mattsc      ] [ shadowm        ] [ wesbot  ] 
20140218 07:22:19[ Crendgrim      ] [ esr      ] [ janebot_ ] [ melinath    ] [ shadowm_desktop] [ yann    ] 
20140218 07:22:19[ crimson_penguin] [ exciton  ] [ Jetrel_  ] [ molgrum_    ] [ shikadibot     ] [ {V}     ] 
20140218 07:22:19-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 54 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 54 normal]
20140218 07:23:05-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 05:28:41 2009
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20140218 07:27:11-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Wesnoth.org is dead | Alternate IRC logs on wesnoth.debian.net | 1.11.10 (start of string+feature freeze) planned for February 22nd | 222 bugs, 350 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20140218 08:12:51< zookeeper> mattsc, oh damn those ogres are fast :p
20140218 08:14:54< zookeeper> maybe i should make sure that they can never be quick, since it's pretty difficult to balance for that
20140218 08:15:17< zookeeper> and obviously the map needs some heavy work
20140218 08:18:44< shadowm> "What I don’t like is the fact that Lich-Lord Jevyan, after whom our very capital is named, betrayed my people." <- yes, but it didn't use to have "Haven" in its name IIRC?
20140218 08:19:17< zookeeper> i think it's always been called "jevyan's haven"
20140218 08:19:29< zookeeper> at least i didn't come up with that
20140218 08:21:27< vultraz> Still don't get how they named their capital after a lich
20140218 08:21:27< zookeeper> ok, in 1.0 it's just called "jevyan" on the map
20140218 08:21:27< shadowm> Well, didn't people name cities after people somewhere in East Europe?
20140218 08:21:59< vultraz> My point is once they reached the GC they went all batshit about necromancy
20140218 08:21:59< vultraz> So why on the Green Isle they named their capital after a Lich
20140218 08:21:59< shadowm> I'm not following you. That happens _after_ the city is founded.
20140218 08:21:59< shadowm> Back then they hadn't been betrayed by their own lichdom-embracing overlords.
20140218 08:22:57< vultraz> I don't remember the entirely of TRoW, but did ALL the lich lords betray them?
20140218 08:23:00< shadowm> "On January 26, 1924, five days after Lenin's death, Petrograd was renamed Leningrad."
20140218 08:24:01< zookeeper> <vultraz> My point is once they reached the GC they went all batshit about necromancy
20140218 08:24:03< zookeeper> no they didn't
20140218 08:25:48< vultraz> Why, if they had such close relations and tolerance of necromancy and the undead on the Green Isle, did they develop such an aversion to it on the Great Continent 
20140218 08:25:48< zookeeper> that happened on the GI
20140218 08:25:48< vultraz> Necromancy is the big NO NO of the civilizations there during the mainline epoch 
20140218 08:25:48< shadowm> vultraz: I don't know, might it be because their lich lords betrayed them?! Plus I imagine the legal system in early Wesnoth was structured around the customs of the Islefolk, not the Wesfolk.
20140218 08:26:22< shadowm> Since Haldric became the first King of Wesnoth by default and all.
20140218 08:26:22< vultraz> Hm
20140218 08:26:22< vultraz> I guess that's good enough
20140218 08:27:14< vultraz> Even though a Wesfolk was the first Queen of wesnoth (why do we never talk about the Queens)
20140218 08:27:35< vultraz> (we always go on about king king king but the only queen is whatsherface)
20140218 08:27:57< shadowm> Was she?
20140218 08:28:36< zookeeper> the game was made by white dudes, that's why there's little else than white dudes in it
20140218 08:28:49< zookeeper> like, you know, queens except for the one evil one :p
20140218 08:29:02< shadowm> The timeline doesn't really specify, nor do the closest mainline campaigns in the timeline (AOI, LoW, SoF). I always assumed Jessene didn't become queen.
20140218 08:29:27< shadowm> Even though that would actually be the most logical course of action from a political perspective.
20140218 08:29:51< zookeeper> i believe it wasn't explicit before esr made it so
20140218 08:30:48< shadowm> Hm, wait, was it?
20140218 08:30:48< vultraz> I thought she did become queen?
20140218 08:30:48< zookeeper> now we know that "she bore him strong children" and... yeah
20140218 08:30:48< shadowm> Let me go check the timeline of Wesnoth-- oh hahahaha no I can't do that.
20140218 08:31:08< shadowm> Oh, the prose.
20140218 08:32:21< _8680_> Wayback Machine?
20140218 08:32:21< shadowm> Of course he is allergic to open-ended stories, I had forgotten that.
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20140218 08:32:40< shadowm> I utterly regret looking at git log -p further than that. It brings me bad memories.
20140218 08:33:13< shadowm> vultraz: Fun fact: you first played Wesnoth _after_ that and other changes.
20140218 08:33:38< shadowm> I first played TRoW to completion years before that.
20140218 08:34:11< shadowm> So of course I tend to call several of these characters by the names I remember from back then too... Oh well.
20140218 08:40:50< zookeeper> i think we should somehow bring him back just to participate in the discussions of a particular new faction :>
20140218 08:41:47< zookeeper> also, i should just go ahead and change arne back to arne
20140218 08:42:51< zookeeper> shadowm, btw, any ETA for when forums etc might be back?
20140218 08:44:37< shadowm> I _can_ bring them back any time you want, but you all would be headbutting into the server and seeing random timeout errors between the httpd and you, or the httpd and the mysqld, and lag everything further down as a result.
20140218 08:45:38< shadowm> Plus I can't vouch for the integrity and consistency of the forums and MW databases.
20140218 08:46:02< zookeeper> i take that as a "no"
20140218 08:46:11< shadowm> So you'll have to wait until we figure out what to do with the crashed HDD.
20140218 08:46:30< zookeeper> crashed HDD? oh dear.
20140218 08:46:55< shadowm> Brings back memories, doesn't it?
20140218 08:47:26< zookeeper> might do
20140218 08:52:59< zookeeper> Ivanovic, you're still the person to ask for pofixes? i'd like to commit Arvith back to good old Arne and it's all done on my end, but naturally the rename ought to be pofixed as well.
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20140218 08:53:49< shadowm> Any particular reason you chose to restore that name in particular?
20140218 08:54:16< zookeeper> well, sure, it's an established name, it's a pretty good name, and the new name sucks
20140218 08:54:56< zookeeper> i'd rather take it back to the original than come up with a third version
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20140218 10:54:27< zookeeper> mattsc, it doesn't seem like the ogres take impassable terrain into account; i'm tweaking the map and making pretty much the whole north edge consist of impassable mountains
20140218 10:55:04< zookeeper> ...and it seems that some ogres just run for the north edge and get semi-stuck in small passable valleys, because they don't want to come closer to my units
20140218 10:55:34< zookeeper> it's not a big problem because i can tweak the map accordingly, but i thought i'd mention
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20140218 14:29:40< AI0867> iceiceice: if I'm looking at this correctly, you've had 4 PRs merged by now?
20140218 14:31:30< AI0867> oh, I now see that shadowm's already offered you commit access
20140218 14:32:48< AI0867> something that is not shown in the wiki (and the wiki is down anyway) is the commits mailinglist (which is also down)
20140218 14:33:08-!- mattsc [~mattsc@207.230.251.234] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140218 14:39:35< AI0867> okay, the mailinglist isn't down, it's just very slow (like the rest of the server)
20140218 14:40:02< mattsc> zookeeper: yeah, that's right.  The ogres currently use a straight distance-to-edge rating.  To take impassable terrain into account, I'd have to do path finding from each hex each ogre can reach to each map hex.  My guess is that that's too expensive, but I can try.
20140218 14:40:48< mattsc> But since this only has to work on one map, there are tricks one could use to work around that.  Do you have a map ready that you could send me yet?
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20140218 14:41:52< zookeeper> mattsc, soon enough, i got the map done and am currently just cleaning up some of the code
20140218 14:43:19< mattsc> zookeeper: okay - in the meantime I'll just put in a wall of imapassable terrain in the north and play a little with some ideas.
20140218 14:43:22< AI0867> to sign up for commit mails (you probably shouldn't do this until the server is fixed): http://wesnoth.org:1580/listinfo/commits
20140218 14:43:48< zookeeper> mattsc, eh, if you want i can just pastebin it for you while i sort out some remaining message bugs
20140218 14:44:21< mattsc> zookeeper: sure, that would be easiest for me.
20140218 14:45:40< zookeeper> mattsc, here you go: http://pastebin.com/TDtURX8P (embedded map data)
20140218 14:45:46< mattsc> zookeeper: thanks - I'm thinking about setting up a semi-manually created rating layer that simply adds penalties to the hexes south of the impassable terrain.
20140218 14:47:08< mattsc> That way it is possible to "herd" the ogres into that area, but they will try to avoid it is they can.
20140218 14:47:38< mattsc> Since this only has to work on this map, I think it should work ...
20140218 14:50:03< zookeeper> i know i didn't originally mention impassable terrains since i didn't think i'd be using any, but without it there's really only one way for the ogres to go: directly north
20140218 14:50:27< zookeeper> ...and that's kinda boring
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20140218 14:51:30< mattsc> yeah - agreed.  I didn't expect this either before I saw what happens.  I guess that's why actual play testing is important.  :P
20140218 14:51:46< zookeeper> anyway, perhaps something simple like just dropping dist_top would do the trick? just thinking out loud here
20140218 14:52:50< mattsc> Oh, I saw what you did (just loaded the map into my test scenario).
20140218 14:52:57< mattsc> s/saw/see
20140218 14:53:49< mattsc> zookeeper: that is slightly different from what I imagine, but yeah, that should work.
20140218 14:54:36< mattsc> I don't even need to drop all the northern edge, just the part that is impassable.
20140218 14:54:47< mattsc> Cool, that should be pretty easy.
20140218 14:55:16< zookeeper> i think it's gonna be a reasonably fun breather scenario now; it's still easy, you can't really "lose" (unless you're _really_ careless), and you have to think a bit. it's probably possible to come up with some kind of an optimal mechanical strategy but that's not much of a problem.
20140218 14:55:57< zookeeper> for one you have to figure out that you need cavalry to flank both sides and then some units in the middle
20140218 14:56:36< zookeeper> however, i don't know if currently the ogres could, for example, try to run across the map to escape to the other side if you have no one there
20140218 14:57:27< mattsc> yeah - and I see that you gave the player some gold now so that you can actually recruit some cavalry.
20140218 14:57:28< zookeeper> not that it's necessary
20140218 14:58:00< mattsc> Sure - but it's fun.
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20140218 14:59:20< zookeeper> i got rid of almost all villages to make it less likely to abuse the scenario
20140218 14:59:45< zookeeper> s/likely/easy
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20140218 15:03:50< mattsc> zookeeper: I don't have time to test things right now, but I think this will be a decent simple solution:  http://pastebin.com/uBGMaws8
20140218 15:04:22< zookeeper> got it
20140218 15:06:22< zookeeper> i can commit that along with the scenario after i check that it works, if you want
20140218 15:07:01< mattsc> Yes, please, go ahead.  And let me know if it's not what you.
20140218 15:07:13< mattsc> I'll be back in 30 min or so...
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20140218 15:07:47< zookeeper> sure
20140218 15:08:06< zookeeper> well at least i can immediately tell that they're scattering to left and right a lot more, which is good
20140218 15:08:16< mattsc> cool
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20140218 15:26:38< irker900> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth-old:master 5ef69805070f / data/campaigns/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Further rework of 'Capturing the Ogres'. http://git.io/ZBTdKg
20140218 15:27:32-!- mattsc [~mattsc@fw.hia.nrc.ca] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140218 15:27:57< zookeeper> mattsc, committed a minute ago, in case you want to test
20140218 15:28:04< zookeeper> it seems pretty good to me now
20140218 15:28:57< mattsc> zookeeper: great, I'll check it out in a little
20140218 15:39:45< mattsc> zookeeper: that commit also included two portraits in TB.  Did you want to commit those (obviously not in this commit, but in general)?
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20140218 15:52:55< zookeeper> gah, screw github
20140218 15:54:05< zookeeper> i dunno how to revert, so i guess i'll just rename it back
20140218 15:54:37< mattsc> I think you can only revert the entire commit, not parts of it.
20140218 15:55:51< irker900> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth-old:master 34181ce220b6 / data/campaigns/Two_Brothers/images/portraits/ (arne.png arvith.png): Fixed screwup in previous commit. http://git.io/QMqfdw
20140218 15:58:30< zookeeper> ok wtf is this; if i want a profile picture on github, i have to register on some other site (gravatar)?
20140218 15:58:34< AI0867> you can revert with --no-commit, remove the parts you didn't want to revert, and then commit
20140218 15:58:47< AI0867> zookeeper: globally recognized avatar
20140218 15:58:58< AI0867> the idea is that you only ever have to set one avatar
20140218 15:59:14< zookeeper> i wasn't asking what gravatar is
20140218 16:01:14< AI0867> there's no actual difference between an git-revert generated revert and a manual one anyway
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20140218 16:12:20< mattsc> zookeeper: just did a quick run through the scenario.  I agree, I think it's good.  It would be nice to make it last a little longer, but I don't see a good (and easy enough) way to do that.
20140218 16:20:53< mattsc> zookeeper: if you are looking for something else to do ;) ... I noticed that the AI_CONTROLLER macro does not clear all its variables at the end of the scenario.
20140218 16:25:50-!- Dugi [93fbd156@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.251.209.86] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140218 16:26:01< Dugi> Hello.
20140218 16:30:21< Dugi> Anybody here?
20140218 16:33:08< AI0867> yes
20140218 16:34:40< zookeeper> mattsc, oh. you wouldn't also know which ones? :p
20140218 16:36:25< zookeeper> nevermind, i'll just check with :inspect
20140218 16:36:36< mattsc> zookeeper: no, I don't.  I noticed it was a bunch of them, but haven't looked into which ones exactly yet (also because all of this is in SotBE and some appear left-over from the no-leader scenario)
20140218 16:37:08< mattsc> I was going to get back to this, but figured I should finish the rebalancing first.
20140218 16:37:59< mattsc> It also might depend on which objectives one sets, idk
20140218 16:39:21< zookeeper> i'm delighted to see that in siege of barag gor, the wolf rider no longer treks around half the map in the intro :]
20140218 16:40:31< vultraz> mattsc: I never played SotBE, but I just might after you're finished with it :)
20140218 16:40:41-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140218 16:40:49< Dugi> Well, I wanted to discuss something. Almost a year ago, I suggested a change in the add-on system, because the download count is some kind of ranking itself. Nobody really disagreed, but the only change the developers had time for was preventing the updates from increasing the download count. I have later learned C++ and left a few unclear promises that I'll work on it myself. So here I am, and I should have enough time to work on
20140218 16:41:28< mattsc> zookeeper: :)  Although that's just a side effect of one of the other changes we made.
20140218 16:41:40< Dugi> So I wanted to ask about some directions.
20140218 16:41:42< vultraz> Dugi: what is this change you speak of
20140218 16:42:34< Dugi> The problem is that the forums are down, I would like to give a link... the idea was basically to add an some reviews bellow the add-ons' descriptions.
20140218 16:42:47< mattsc> vultraz: I'm on to the last scenario and hope to have that finished in 2 or 3 days, so you could get going.
20140218 16:43:00< vultraz> mattsc: HDD hasn't arrived yet :P
20140218 16:43:18< vultraz> Dugi: an addon review or ranking system was among the issues discussed at FOSDEM
20140218 16:43:24< mattsc> I see.  Well, Kapou'e can wait...
20140218 16:43:27< Dugi> What is FOSDEM?
20140218 16:44:16< Dugi> My idea was to code something like this: http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=67030 (it's just drawn in a picture editor)
20140218 16:44:17< zookeeper> Dugi, when the average user goes to the add-on server to find something cool to try out and there's a list of 500 add-ons, what good are reviews without a clear rating and which are behind an extra click anyway?
20140218 16:44:54< zookeeper> at best you'll check the description/reviews of the few top items and pick one of those
20140218 16:45:20< zookeeper> you're not gonna somehow check the review of the 250th item, see that it's said to be good and give it a try
20140218 16:45:23< Dugi> Well, rating would end-up with scores between 6 and 8 out of 10, maybe only the worst ones would get bellow.
20140218 16:46:10< vultraz> Dugi: you should check the dev mailing list archives for discussion on this
20140218 16:46:43< vultraz> I also had a fairly extensive conversation with shadowm over the matter, but I can't remember if he added the content of such to the ml. If not, _8680_ should have logs 
20140218 16:46:55< Dugi> Without the forums, I have no idea where things like that might be.
20140218 16:47:21< happygrue> Dugi: https://gna.org/mail/?group=wesnoth
20140218 16:48:58< Dugi> How do I find it there?
20140218 16:49:38< happygrue> erm, for me that links to a page showing the mailing list.  The wesnoth-dev mailing list is achrived via links there... maybe you see something else?
20140218 16:49:58< vultraz> go to the wesnoth-dev one
20140218 16:50:22< zookeeper> i've always believed that what the add-on interface needs is a simple means for people to see which add-ons are known to be "good, bug-free and high-quality".
20140218 16:50:24< vultraz> oh wait,t hat's for subbing
20140218 16:50:30< vultraz> hm, where are the archives
20140218 16:50:52< Dugi> I've got there, but there's just the subscribing...
20140218 16:51:08< zookeeper> look higher
20140218 16:51:13< vultraz> Dugi: ah here https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2014-02/threads.html
20140218 16:51:56< Dugi> Found it, thanks.
20140218 16:52:05< happygrue> Dugi: this is one of them:  https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2014-02/msg00005.html
20140218 16:52:38< happygrue> there are a few talking about related issues I think.  Anyone can subscibe to the mailing list, so go ahead and do that and you will get emails if the subject comes up again
20140218 16:53:48< happygrue> zookeeper: I agree that "currently maintained (eg mostly bug free" is right up there as about the most important thing, but being interesting/high quality is right behind
20140218 16:54:15< happygrue> sorry, some problems with my " and () there, but you get it I guess
20140218 16:54:19< zookeeper> yes
20140218 16:55:48< happygrue> One huge problem with that is how to keep up with an addon that is maintained for a year, then the guy goes away for a year and some bugs arise, but then he comes back and fixes it back up...
20140218 16:55:50< zookeeper> i've usually advocated a simple "developers' stamp of approval" mark on choice add-ons, but i guess now i'm more in the "give a wide group such as forum regulars the vote" camp
20140218 16:56:30< happygrue> both of those have some advantages I guess
20140218 16:57:05< zookeeper> happygrue, well if an add-on works on 1.12.0 then it'll continue working all the way to 1.12.999 without extra maintenance
20140218 16:57:07< vultraz> zookeeper: the problems with a "dev stamp of approval" are: A - our standards are high B - we'd actually have to play the stuff =P
20140218 16:57:57< happygrue> yes, but what happens when things move over the next release?  For some addons they will be broken, some will transition smoothly because the author has been keeping up.  Do ratings reset?
20140218 16:58:05< happygrue> hehe vultraz
20140218 16:58:11< happygrue> who plays this stuff, anyway...
20140218 16:59:10< happygrue> I just introduced someone to the game, and they were asking for a good drake campaign and all I could say was "Flight to Freedom was fair last I played it, many years ago, just go to the addon server and look for lots of downloads on a drake campaign" 
20140218 16:59:21< zookeeper> happygrue, well, if votes would carry over to new versions but people could still change them on a per-version basis, then that'd solve it i guess
20140218 16:59:31< happygrue> yeah
20140218 16:59:43< happygrue> maybe a "provisional" status until new votes with the current version come in
20140218 17:00:13< zookeeper> i dunno, if an add-on had really good ratings before then the author is likely sane enough to not have completely broken it
20140218 17:00:18< mattsc> zookeeper: quick question on the final scenario of SotBE.  Currently, Kapou'e is surrounded at the beginning.  It's possible to use Grüü and the starting Warlord to open a gap on the first turn, but it requires 4 of their 6 strikes to land.
20140218 17:00:20< mattsc> Chance of that happening, on 60% terrain is probably roughly 50/50 (I'm too lazy to do the maths).  I don't like invitations/temptations for save/loading like that on the first turn.
20140218 17:00:22< zookeeper> unless the maintainer changed perhaps :P
20140218 17:00:36< mattsc> How about I open a gap for him that he can sneak through no matter what?
20140218 17:01:00< happygrue> zookeeper: that may be, but it is hard to generalize when there are so many addons... I think it's mostly a guess (which may or may not be true)
20140218 17:01:27< vultraz> zookeeper: we might need to begin enforcing minimum content quality regulations
20140218 17:01:30< happygrue> then again, maybe it doesn't matter that much
20140218 17:01:37< happygrue> eventually ratings will catch back up I guess
20140218 17:01:53< happygrue> perhaps a system that gives more weight to recent ratings would be good?
20140218 17:01:56< vultraz> just so people would know an addon is of at least X quality when downloading it
20140218 17:02:14< zookeeper> mattsc, hrhm... that, or force CTH to 100% for the first turn/attack? :>
20140218 17:02:15< vultraz> right now the threshold is so low that anything mildly good goes
20140218 17:02:22< happygrue> so last 50 ratings count more than 200 old ratings
20140218 17:02:41< zookeeper> mattsc, opening a gap would work nicer, but it's kind of a really sloppy ambush then
20140218 17:02:57< vultraz> however that raises a whole new issue of who vets them >_>
20140218 17:03:00< mattsc> zookeeper: yeah, I don't like that part either.
20140218 17:03:35< mattsc> zookeeper: How about I make clearing the gap part of the start event?
20140218 17:04:03< mattsc> The gryphons could clear the gap for Kapou'e.
20140218 17:05:16< zookeeper> yeah, you could animate one gryph into taking out one of the orcs when they arrive
20140218 17:05:22< zookeeper> that'd work best i think
20140218 17:05:36< mattsc> Okay, I'll do that then.
20140218 17:06:27< happygrue> vultraz: you will, I assume.  :P
20140218 17:06:36< happygrue> PROBLEM SOLVED
20140218 17:06:41< vultraz> har har xD
20140218 17:06:55< vultraz> my standards are too high
20140218 17:09:37< mattsc> zookeeper: problem with that is that even two strong gryphon masters landing all their 4 strikes leave an orcish warrior with 1HP   :\
20140218 17:09:50< happygrue> okay, how about this, anyone with the addon installed can cast a vote on it (1-5 or whatever), registered forum members votes count double, and the last 10% of ratings count for half the rating, with older 90% of ratings counting for the other half
20140218 17:09:59< happygrue> then new addons get ranked lower but can overcome that
20140218 17:10:05< fendrin> Dugi: hello
20140218 17:10:15< happygrue> and things that go awol will get rated down faster
20140218 17:10:23< zookeeper> mattsc, even a quick orcish warrior?
20140218 17:10:28< Dugi> Guys, how do I reply to somebody?
20140218 17:11:23< fendrin> Dugi: You can write the beginning of the name, then use the tab completion (most irc clients support it), complete the name. Like I did with your name now. It should be highlighted in your client then.
20140218 17:11:30< mattsc> zookeeper: ah, true, I could force it to be quick and/or intelligent ...
20140218 17:11:41< Dugi> fendrin: Thanks.
20140218 17:11:52< fendrin> Dugi: I am "fabi" on the forum, by the way.
20140218 17:11:56< mattsc> zookeeper: or I make the ambush party a mix of warriors and grunts.
20140218 17:12:10< zookeeper> mattsc, or you can just do one fake attack and kill it; no big deal
20140218 17:12:26-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20140218 17:12:42< Dugi> fendrin: Ah, that explains a lot.
20140218 17:13:20< mattsc> zookeeper: sure, why not.  :)  However, I actually like mixing in a few grunts.  That also reduces the chances of losing Grüü on the first turn due to the Warriors getting lucky.
20140218 17:13:21-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140218 17:13:30< mattsc> s/chances/chance
20140218 17:14:25< fendrin> Dugi: I thought about the add-on server problem a little. Currently I prefer a pure technical solution. Not that I dislike rating/reviewing systems. But all kinds of stuff to help the player with finding content can be added time after time. 
20140218 17:15:14-!- trademark [~trademark@nsg93-8-88-175-59-164.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20140218 17:15:39< fendrin> Dugi: The pure technical solution, would just mine some playing data and give the designer of the umc the data to improve on, while providing some nice extra addon attributes to sort for.
20140218 17:15:55< zookeeper> one thing that'd already help a lot would be to enforce the version information more strictly, and by default only display >=1.0 add-ons
20140218 17:16:19< fendrin> Dugi: Like replay value or just time spend in average by the user.
20140218 17:16:46< fendrin> zookeeper: Maybe. We also like unfinished but good campaigns to be played and develop fast.
20140218 17:17:11< Dugi> fendrin: As I said, I am willing to help here, just need to know what to do first. I am not pushing my opinion, your opinions are pretty good too.
20140218 17:17:25< Dugi> Please let me read the newsletters first.
20140218 17:17:55< fendrin> Sure, take your time :-)
20140218 17:18:34< zookeeper> mattsc, if the middle warrior is taken out and you escape through that gap, then no more than 2 warriors can attack you then (the gryphs block the others)
20140218 17:18:41< zookeeper> so there shouldn't be much danger
20140218 17:19:00< zookeeper> the enemy turn comes before the gryphs too
20140218 17:19:24< zookeeper> mattsc, err, make that 3 after all
20140218 17:20:00< zookeeper> mattsc, or as a further alternative, make the warriors attack the gryphs first
20140218 17:20:09< zookeeper> damn birds, shoo, shoo
20140218 17:22:16< zookeeper> mattsc, ...and if you take out the left of the topmost orcs and let the player escape through there, only 2 warriors can reach them then.
20140218 17:22:24< zookeeper> lots of possibilities, pick your poison :p
20140218 17:22:30< fendrin> Dugi: FOSDEM == Free and Open Source Developer European Meeting
20140218 17:22:35< Dugi> fendrin: Okay, read it. To verify if I am right: there are like three ideas, one of them is to simply add numerical score (maybe version-based), other one is to give it some tags and the last one is to give it individual scores for more factors. Right?
20140218 17:22:42< Dugi> fendrin: Thanks for clarifying.
20140218 17:23:50< fendrin> Hmmm, I counted even some more, maybe not all on the dev-ml (mailinglist). 
20140218 17:24:27< Dugi> fendrin: Can you remember some of them?
20140218 17:24:40< mattsc> zookeeper: yeah, I guess Shan Taum wouldn't come with measly grunts.  He's too scared for that.  :P
20140218 17:25:22< fendrin> Well, there is a faction of Players/Users mostly, they are in love with handwritten reviews/ratings (manual ones).
20140218 17:25:37< mattsc> Anyways, I'll have to do some work now, but I think I'll go with the two gryphons taking out the NW-most warrior when I get back to this.
20140218 17:26:07< fendrin> The discussion also involved if the group of users allowed to participate in reviewing and/or rating should be restricted to some members of the community.
20140218 17:26:58< fendrin> Some prefer the 5 stars system, some others only like/dislike options.
20140218 17:27:13< Dugi> fendrin: When thinking about it, I really like your idea about basing the rating on the total time people spend playing the add-on.
20140218 17:27:34< fendrin> Well, that would be one of the proposed sorting attributes only.
20140218 17:28:01< fendrin> But probably the one with the biggest value when you just look for something people like to play.
20140218 17:28:09-!- kex [~kex@89.205.75.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20140218 17:28:22< Dugi> fendrin: The best game is the one you play forever, no?
20140218 17:28:29< zookeeper> yeah, it's not
20140218 17:29:17< fendrin> Dugi: The best game is the one that gives me a good time again, just like when I first encountered it, after some time of pause.
20140218 17:30:14< zookeeper> plenty of things are great even if they don't have much replay value
20140218 17:30:45< shadowm> AI0867: Have we announced the new commits mailing list in -dev yet?
20140218 17:30:52< fendrin> Yes, I agree there as well.
20140218 17:31:01-!- Gallaecio [~quassel@84.120.219.139.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140218 17:31:03< Dugi> To speak about my own experience, Assassin's Creed III had beatiful graphics, good dialogues, well-made cutscenes. Diablo II has old 2D graphics, few story elements, no plot twists. I spent maybe 40 hours playing AC3, and maybe 1000 hours playing D2. I still remember nostalgically to days when I was playign Diablo II. It was one of the best games ever in my opinion.
20140218 17:31:14< shadowm> AI0867: Becaus I only now found out I could subscribe and how by reading the logs from today. :p
20140218 17:31:20< zookeeper> a linear very good story-driven short campaign might only give you a couple of hours of fun, but you might still rate it much better than the megacolosseumxtreme you play when you're bored.
20140218 17:32:11< fendrin> Indeed, thus the proposed attribute is just a brick in the wall, not a final solution.
20140218 17:32:30< Dugi> Well, I liked Amnesia: The Dark Descent, but never felt any need to return to it... Maybe I just endorse the replay value too much.
20140218 17:33:04< vultraz> I played the trial of Amnesia TDD and I think it's a great :/
20140218 17:33:07< zookeeper> i liked it for the first half an hour but then it got too scary and i'm still not sure when i'll try it again :>
20140218 17:33:14< shadowm> AI0867: It should also be mentioned in the wiki as soon as we have a wiki again.
20140218 17:34:44< fendrin> Dugi: So, finding a single data mined value for producing a single rating is not likely to work. Maybe one can come up with a function to calculate such a rating out of many data mined attributes.
20140218 17:34:50< Dugi> So, the initial rating calculated as a function of total time the players spent playing, their ratings and download count, and download count?
20140218 17:35:08< Dugi> Sorry, haven't read your reply a second before posting my last one.
20140218 17:36:11< zookeeper> you're probably forgetting that not all add-ons can be "played"
20140218 17:36:24< zookeeper> what is the playtime for a modification, or a music pack?
20140218 17:36:29< fendrin> Indeed, I thought about that as well.
20140218 17:36:57< fendrin> This is why the proposed attribute(s) can not be a "rating".
20140218 17:37:17< zookeeper> i hate when software wants to auto-update and then it updates to a crappier version, like github did.
20140218 17:37:55< Dugi> Eras and modifications can be played, if playing a scenario with them activated. Campaign using some eras... probably shouldn't increase their rating. Music packs and resuorces are useless standalone and their score should be low.
20140218 17:38:37< irker900> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master 9386e954389e / RELEASE_NOTES: Update RELEASE_NOTES http://git.io/aqGkzQ
20140218 17:38:54< AI0867> shadowm: I should, but not now, I'm about to leave
20140218 17:39:37< fendrin> Dugi: I do not know if we really need a "rating". The solution must fix the add-on server problem. From the projects point of view that is people are downloading useless stuff and decide to not use the addon server anymore. 
20140218 17:39:59< irker900> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth-old:master 5a5368d6f051 / data/core/macros/ai_controller.cfg: Fixed some variables not being cleared http://git.io/wUJsPQ
20140218 17:40:02< irker900> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth-old:master 27be7b8ae0b9 / RELEASE_NOTES: Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old http://git.io/_1-STw
20140218 17:40:13< shadowm> fendrin: Does the second part of problem actually exist?
20140218 17:40:15< mattsc> fendrin: yeah - for me personally, if I had two 10-scenario campaigns and some attribute told me on average users need 30 hours to play one and 10 to play the other, there's a good chance I'd prefer the latter (all else being equal which, of course, it isn't).
20140218 17:40:28< Dugi> fendein: It wasn't me who suggested rating.
20140218 17:41:07< shadowm> Dugi: You can type the first few characters of a name and press tab to tab-complete it without having to type the whole thing (since that tends to result in typos like your last).
20140218 17:41:32< fendrin> Dugi: Yes I know. I just wanted to be sure that we are open to all kind of solutions and don't get focused in one direction so much.
20140218 17:41:33< zookeeper> unfortunately tab doesn't work on mattsc who i've had to type the whole day :p
20140218 17:41:51< Dugi> shadowm: Thanks, fabi already told me that, but I had a typo there and didn't know why it wasn't working.
20140218 17:41:56-!- shubham_ [~shubham@183.83.13.75] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140218 17:42:00< shadowm> zookeeper: Works For Me™.
20140218 17:42:08< mattsc> It works once you're up to the 's'  :P
20140218 17:42:26< shadowm> It works with just the 'm' for me, I guess irssi is just that good.
20140218 17:42:36< zookeeper> shadowm, maybe your client is cleverer :|
20140218 17:42:38< shadowm> (Compared to mirc, at least.)
20140218 17:42:38< zookeeper> i wasted my moneys
20140218 17:42:40< fendrin> shadowm: The second part of the problem would be "(users) decide to not use the add-on server anymore"?
20140218 17:42:43< mattsc> Also, my client gives me a menu with the options if there are several possibilities
20140218 17:43:06< shadowm> Maybe you need to press tab twice.
20140218 17:43:23< shadowm> fendrin: Yes.
20140218 17:43:44< zookeeper> shadowm, indeed! thanks :>
20140218 17:44:19< Dugi> fendrin: Well, the advantage of rating is that it can quickly separate the rather worse stuff from the good stuff, for the cost of responsibility. An alternative is reviewing, that should be quite accurate and reliable, but taking a lot of time. Their combination might be useful to allow a quick sorting first, then to focus more on descriptions. There are some more alternatives like tags, but they don't seem really good (and defin
20140218 17:44:21< AI0867> zookeeper: on mirc?
20140218 17:44:25< zookeeper> AI0867, yes
20140218 17:44:28< AI0867> eww
20140218 17:45:07< zookeeper> sorry
20140218 17:45:42< zookeeper> but it's the only piece of software i've used for like 15 years :p
20140218 17:45:58< AI0867> I used to use it
20140218 17:46:04< AI0867> I had bots written in it
20140218 17:46:18< Dugi> Is this chat logged somewhere?
20140218 17:46:19< AI0867> the scripting language is crap though
20140218 17:46:21< AI0867> yes
20140218 17:46:44< shadowm> Dugi: Depending on your client, the channel topic with the link should be at the top.
20140218 17:48:03< Dugi> shadowm: Ah, yes, http://irclogs.wesnoth.org , on the top of the site.
20140218 17:48:30< shadowm> The first two parts of the topic say that you should use http://wesnoth.debian.net/ for now instead.
20140218 17:49:39< Dugi> shadowm: Cool, thanks.
20140218 17:50:11< fendrin> shadowm: From my personal observation, yes. I have met some people in RL who asked me about Wesnoth and why new versions don't contain new content anymore. The answer to my hint of the add-on server was often: Too crowded, is there any good stuff on it? I better wait for the developer to mainline the good ones, if there were good on it, they would be in the game by now.
20140218 17:51:14< fendrin> s/good on/good ones on/
20140218 17:51:15< shadowm> Well yes, I admit I'm unlikely to try anything that's not mainline either.
20140218 17:52:01< shadowm> Oooooo I have an idea: let's purge all mainline campaigns except for AToTB!
20140218 17:52:09< Dugi> Why don't you just take a bunch of add-on campaigns, update them, add them to mainline, and remove some less popular manline campaigns, returning them to UMC?
20140218 17:52:14< shadowm> And we can rename it Tutorial.
20140218 17:52:47-!- ToBeFree is now known as TomRiddle
20140218 17:52:53-!- TomRiddle is now known as ToBeFree
20140218 17:53:01< Dugi> Voldermort, is that you?
20140218 17:53:05< shadowm> (I jest, I jest...)
20140218 17:53:44< fendrin> Dugi: One problem is that we do not have the staff right now to mainline campaigns. For example no prose writers.
20140218 17:54:22< shadowm> That's not quite true; we do have an aspiring writer and a grammar and a punctuation technician around.
20140218 17:54:28< zookeeper> you don't "just" "take a bunch of ..."
20140218 17:54:32< Dugi> fendrin: I was speaking about taking existing UMC ones, their authors should not mind that (except Shadowmaster).
20140218 17:54:37< shadowm> Er, *a grammar and punctuation technician
20140218 17:54:49< shadowm> Who the hell is shadowmaster.
20140218 17:55:00< fendrin> shadowm: Names?
20140218 17:55:30< Dugi> shadowm: What is your poblem with that? Your new nick name is an obvious shortcut of the older, cooler one.
20140218 17:55:43< shadowm> fendrin: vultraz and _8680_, respectively. Their help with AtS has been absolutely invaluable (although I've only allowed them to proofread, not write content save for a few bits).
20140218 17:56:19< shadowm> I'd also nominate Turuk if he was around, on principle. I haven't had a chance to read his prose.
20140218 17:56:26< fendrin> shadowm: Good to know. vultraz is the prose doctor, and _8680_ the grammar technician?
20140218 17:56:45< shadowm> Yes.
20140218 17:56:58< fendrin> Turuk does well on technical stuff, I bet he can do prose as well.
20140218 17:57:10< shadowm> Dugi: It's not.
20140218 17:57:14< Dugi> Seriously, it would be a cool idea to replace most mainline by (maybe less polished) UMC campaigns, call it Battle for Wesnoth 2: The Return of Asheviere or something and return many older players.
20140218 17:58:05< zookeeper> cool in the same way as making all units able to shoot lasers would be cool, i suppose
20140218 17:58:06< Dugi> shadowm: I still don't know what's your problem, but I'll try to remember that you're shadowm now.
20140218 17:58:37< zookeeper> as in not actually cool, but saying so makes you look cranky and a spoilsport
20140218 18:00:37< fendrin> Dugi: You must know, zookeeper is spending a lot time to polish the mainline campaigns and keep them alive, since years. So most of them are his babies by now...
20140218 18:00:50< shadowm> Just keep the campaigns and make everyone able to shoot lasers and blow up stuff and NR would automatically fulfill its destiny as the parody it was obviously meant to be.
20140218 18:01:00< shadowm> That's good enough for me.
20140218 18:01:30< fendrin> shadowm: A NR version with Laser weapons would really be cool, shouldn't be so hart.
20140218 18:02:13< Dugi> Have you played Brütal Legend? That came actually contains animals that can shoot lasers, explode, roll on two wheels like motorbikes...
20140218 18:02:19< Dugi> *game
20140218 18:02:25< shadowm> Only problem is that given the preposterous scale of NR, the "blow up stuff" part would probably crash the game.
20140218 18:03:01< fendrin> Sadly, NR is too difficult for me. I did not manage the second scenario on easy so far.
20140218 18:05:25-!- shubham_ [~shubham@183.83.13.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20140218 18:05:35< fendrin> Dugi: I would like to see the campaign selection dialog to have some "tabs" where you can choice between classic gameplay and some other sorts like "RPGish", "DungeonCrawler" ...
20140218 18:06:54< fendrin> Dugi: Then we could see if there is anything useful on the addon server to get mainlined into those categories. There are also a number of good mp campaigns out there which should make it into mainline, now that the support works properly.
20140218 18:08:33< happygrue> fendrin: I fear the technical solution you are suggesting would turn out more like the "other users bought this product" stuff on amazon, when what might be more useful is a star rating generated by actual people.  Of course that is just my opinion, but I given the choice between mined data on playthroughs and the "wisdom of the masses" I'd choose the later in this case.
20140218 18:08:38< happygrue> just my opinion of course
20140218 18:09:21< happygrue> of course, if we could have both then great, but if we have to choose then I would go with ratings I think
20140218 18:09:27-!- janebot_ is now known as janebot
20140218 18:10:08< zookeeper> yeah, except that i'd still rather pick "wisdom of the elite" :p
20140218 18:10:32< shadowm> fendrin: I once completed NR on a machine with only 256 MiB of RAM. It was as painful as you'd expect.
20140218 18:11:06< Dugi> fendrin: Well, the problem with campaign classification is that some of them are hard to classify. Heindal's Five Fates is a total RPG, there's no discussion about that (recruitment very limited and good just to get some cannon fodder, leader play all the time), but my Legend of the Invincibles is mostly a classical campaign and its RPG features circle around units' AMLA and gearing up units.
20140218 18:11:07< shadowm> Back then the AI was considerably less efficient too. The last scenario has like 7 AI sides and each one took about 5-10 minutes to play its turn.
20140218 18:12:16< shadowm> Also, the whole game can be described to have elements of any of those genres.
20140218 18:13:01< shadowm> Much like with a freeform tags system, I'd expect a lot of content to be misclassified as a result.
20140218 18:13:20< Dugi> And most campaigns have some dungeon crawl parts.
20140218 18:13:38< fendrin> Well, all the genres stuff is just to provide one discrimination: Classic Wesnoth Campaigns, and those that normally wouldn't make it into Mainline because of different game mechanics.
20140218 18:14:57< fendrin> Which opens the possibility to add more high quality stuff into the game.
20140218 18:15:24< fendrin> Currently most good stuff on the add-on server is just too different to get included.
20140218 18:15:52< Dugi> All those non-classical campaigns are unique in some way, and are hard to sort into classes.
20140218 18:17:17< fendrin> tags and multiple membership would work as well.
20140218 18:17:59< Dugi> And anyway, why can't some more experimental campaigns make it into mainline? UtBS has a plenty of strange features anyway (when I was a newbie, it kept confusing me for the whole campaign).
20140218 18:19:24< fendrin> Well, I scout the add-on server from time to time. Is there any add-on reaching mainline quality?
20140218 18:20:15< shadowm> Different people have different notions of "mainline quality". Perhaps one of the most subjective points is the campaign length.
20140218 18:20:24< Dugi> Multiple tags might do, but the RPG features of campaigns can be quite minor but still visible enough, provocating some worshippers of the WINRPG rule to tag is as an RPG, though most players would see it like a little bit experimental campaign. Some others can be purely leader-play oriented and contain no recruiting, but a lot of trading and such stuff.
20140218 18:20:43< fendrin> shadowm's IftU and AtS have a crazy background story with 10000 of gods and different confusing stuff. Albeith, they are mainline quality regarding everything else.
20140218 18:20:48< shadowm> As the maintainer of LoW, you may remember that ESR wouldn't allow campaigns past a certain length, and with good reason.
20140218 18:20:59-!- timotei__ [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20140218 18:21:10< fendrin> Indeed, length is also an important issue.
20140218 18:21:48< shadowm> In my own experience, unless you reset the player's gold supply and recall list every once in a while, anything past 8 scenarios quickly becomes unmanageable at an exponential rate.
20140218 18:22:00-!- timotei_ [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140218 18:22:34< shadowm> Mainline campaigns aren't the exception, sadly. HttT becomes ridiculously easy towards the end.
20140218 18:22:37< fendrin> To Lands Unknown is great but the story does not convince me a little, also the protagonist is so strange. I do not like seeing him win.
20140218 18:23:03< Dugi> fendrin: I still believe that IftU should be mainline, it even doesn't have 1000 gods and plenties of important figures appearing from the background like AtS, just some enhancements on the stuff UtBS had.
20140218 18:23:21-!- cib0 [~cib@p5DC742FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140218 18:23:26< Dugi> fendrin: But it's ultimately shadowm's decision, unfortunately.
20140218 18:24:10 * shadowm resists the urge to rant about IftU's flaws for the 10000th time.
20140218 18:24:37< Dugi> fendrin: yeah, I think the same about To Lands Unknown, a total opposite to most UMC, good graphics but not very engaging story or gameplay.
20140218 18:25:23< fendrin> Oh, we can transport all of our country into another dimension we no nothing about. Let's do it!
20140218 18:25:30< fendrin> s/no/know
20140218 18:26:19< shadowm> Is... that a thing that happens in TLU?
20140218 18:26:19< fendrin> I always wanted to steal tLU's scenarios and make another campaign around them.
20140218 18:26:19< happygrue> zookeeper: I agree with you on that, but in practice can we really assume the elite will keep up with it enough so that it would be better than "the masses"?
20140218 18:26:22< Dugi> shadowm: Yes.
20140218 18:26:30< fendrin> shadowm: Yes, it is mostly the background story.
20140218 18:26:52< happygrue> maybe if it were forum members only or something
20140218 18:26:57< shadowm> That doesn't sound too different from the UtBS and IftU "let's find a new home even though most likely there isn't anywhere to go" plot.
20140218 18:26:59< fendrin> shadowm: But not the story in the other dimension, just the way to get everything and everyone into it.
20140218 18:27:12< shadowm> It's ridiculous in IftU -- at least UtBS has a religion-based justification to it.
20140218 18:28:21< shadowm> It reminds me that the orcs-out-of-portals thing in TRoW is rather jarring considering how well-written the rest of it is.
20140218 18:28:36< fendrin> shadowm: The inhabitants of the country are doing fine. They master the conjuring of djinns out of the other dimension. There land is prospering, no poverty. They just do it because they dimension where their djinns are from might be cooler. Or just deathly. Or they are the slaves there.
20140218 18:29:44< Dugi> fendrin: Yeah, the actual motivation to transport themselves there wasn't clear.
20140218 18:29:51< shadowm> Huh.
20140218 18:30:18< fendrin> The story text tells the player: "This might sound crazy but we deceided to do it."
20140218 18:30:57< Dugi> shadowm: He's speaking about the TLU campaign, not about IftU.
20140218 18:30:57< shadowm> I know.
20140218 18:30:57< fendrin> The craziness goes done to a scenario level as well.
20140218 18:31:58< fendrin> The third one iirc. You witness a fight between two factions, one you encountered as hostile before, and a new one. The whole scenario I thought doing what the protagonists superiour officier wants to do is the best way to go.
20140218 18:32:42< fendrin> But you constantly do different things and the scenario rewards you for it. 
20140218 18:45:39< Dugi> fendrin: I wanted to talk about the add-on system I wanted to help with, I hate spending hours on internet chat... it seems that conclusions will come later, maybe after a discussion on the forums, we'll see. How much time do you expect that it would take? I mean whether I should focus on my own project now or not.
20140218 18:45:39< fendrin> Dugi: Your proposal is about filling a form in the game, shadowm also proposed just to link to a rating thread in the forum. 
20140218 18:45:39< Dugi> fendrin: By the way, this is my suggestion about the review system: http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=67030 (it's a bit inspired by Urban Dictionary in sorting the inaccurate descriptions from the good ones)
20140218 18:45:39< zookeeper> happygrue, maybe not, although as i said i'd limit the rating rights to a wider group such as forum regulars or somesuch.
20140218 18:46:43< Dugi> fendrin: I mean coming to a final decision, not just presenting the opinions, everybody has his opinion here and I believe that everybody is open minded to other decisions - so that nothing can be predicted.
20140218 18:46:47< zookeeper> happygrue, if it was developers only then i'm sure new stuff would remain unrated for quite a long time
20140218 18:47:14< happygrue> yeah, I could see that - but how many forum regulars do we have?
20140218 18:47:27< happygrue> and is that something they get automatically after X posts? 
20140218 18:47:43< shadowm> Forum regulars are nominated and promoted by hand.
20140218 18:49:02< fendrin> Dugi: I guess there won't be a final decision. The discussion will continue forever. Until someone just steps up and does the coding.
20140218 18:49:05< happygrue> do we have enough to make that system work?  I would think we'd need 100s of people who are at least somewhat active to have that fly
20140218 18:49:05< zookeeper> happygrue, i dunno, i'd guess in the ballpark of 20-30? excluding everyone with another title, that is.
20140218 18:49:05< Dugi> fendrin: I have offered to do the coding, do you mean that I should just go, do it, and hope it will be accepted?
20140218 18:50:57< fendrin> Dugi: Yes, of course it makes sense to come here and hear opinions about certain points. But don't wait for an official order to do anything. It is unlikely to happen.
20140218 18:51:06< zookeeper> happygrue, wouldn't that depend on what kind of ratings we'd have? i mean, obviously we'd need tons of people if the intent was to assign a score to each add-on, but if the point is to simply to flag certain add-ons as "good" (or some other simple system like that), then fewer would do.
20140218 18:51:08< happygrue> 20-30 people actually playing the addons might be enough, but I'd assume many people of any such group would not acutally be useful for the task of rating addons, so I'd assume we'd need a lot more
20140218 18:51:14< happygrue> could be
20140218 18:51:22< happygrue> it does depend I guess
20140218 18:51:36< shadowm> Okay, you have numbers there, but how many of those are active? To my recent recollection, less than 5.
20140218 18:52:06< zookeeper> the main problem is sifting the decent add-ons from the junk, not to have reviews of every add-on so the user can make an educated choice
20140218 18:52:11< Dugi> fendrin: Crazy. Which files in wesnoth and campaignd should I look at?
20140218 18:52:21< shadowm> campaignd has one file!
20140218 18:52:33< Dugi> Sorry, never seen it.
20140218 18:53:20< shadowm> src/campaign_server/campaign_server.cpp, src/addon/*, src/gui/dialogs/addon*, data/gui/default/window/addon*
20140218 18:55:13< Dugi> Thanks.
20140218 18:55:13< shadowm> Or you could ask trademark about getting the idea into umcd instead, dunno.
20140218 18:55:13< Dugi> What/Who is trademark?
20140218 18:55:13< zookeeper> happygrue, but yeah, the volume of add-ons especially nearing the end of a stable cycle is a bit huge
20140218 18:55:13< shadowm> trademark is a person and was one of our GSoC students last year, who started work on the next add-ons server, umcd. This year he'll be a GSoC mentor instead for the project for driving umcd to completion.
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20140218 18:55:13< shadowm> I'd link you to the wiki, BUT...
20140218 18:55:48< happygrue> I also think ratings are best with high numbers of respondents, along thse lines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds
20140218 18:56:33< lipkab> Ivanovic: I remind you to test image scaling speed on the Pandora.
20140218 18:58:36< zookeeper> happygrue, if for example a numerical score is wanted? i wouldn't doubt it
20140218 18:59:53< Dugi> happygrue: I'd tend to agree, but crowds tend to believe in various sorts of mumbo-jumbo, like creation before 6000 years, alternative medicine, aliens making crop circles etc.
20140218 19:00:17-!- exciton [chuck-the-@95.72.135.88] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140218 19:00:22< Dugi> shadowm: Where can I find him?
20140218 19:00:45< shadowm> Here.
20140218 19:00:45< happygrue> that is not really true.  parts of crowds can, but the point here is that we take out bias from a certain group and replace it with lots and lots of datapoints
20140218 19:00:45< fendrin> wesbot: seen trademark?
20140218 19:00:45< wesbot> fendrin: The person with the nick trademark last spoke 3d 3h ago.  1h 45m ago they left with the message: Ping timeout: 264 seconds
20140218 19:00:48< shadowm> When he is around, that is.
20140218 19:00:55< happygrue> so the 6000 years folks get washed out with the scientists
20140218 19:01:10< shadowm> Alternatively, by email, but I don't remember the address. It's in the SoC proposal's page, though.
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20140218 19:01:27< fendrin> He is also a member of the forums.
20140218 19:01:38< shadowm> Yeah but does he read them?
20140218 19:01:56< Dugi> shadowm: I'll try to see him tomorrow. Hopefully the forums will be up.
20140218 19:01:58< fendrin> pm might work
20140218 19:02:08< shadowm> I can't make any guarantees in that regard.
20140218 19:02:19< Dugi> What is with the forums, anyway?
20140218 19:02:30< shadowm> Not the forums, wesnoth.org as a whole.
20140218 19:02:34< shadowm> See http://status.wesnoth.org/
20140218 19:02:48< Dugi> But that website, that is under wesnoth.org, works.
20140218 19:03:00< shadowm> Because it's not on the same physical host.
20140218 19:03:06< shadowm> DNS magic, you see.
20140218 19:03:17< Dugi> Ah. That explains a lot. I am not an internet guru.
20140218 19:03:21< shadowm> As for an unofficial full explanation: https://twitter.com/shikadilord/status/435850122866728960
20140218 19:03:39-!- exciton_ [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20140218 19:03:41< shadowm> And https://twitter.com/shikadilord/status/435850771004129280
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20140218 19:04:03< Dugi> That looks pretty bad.
20140218 19:04:13< happygrue> anyway, if we had some people looking over addons and rating them then that would be way better than what we had now, so I could get behind it :D
20140218 19:04:31< Dugi> Do you have a g+ or facebook account like that Twitter one?
20140218 19:04:31< shadowm> I don't use those.
20140218 19:04:31< happygrue> small group, large group, even data mining, all are a step up
20140218 19:05:06< Dugi> With rating right through the game, you'll collect the most feedback.
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20140218 19:05:43< zookeeper> what does "With rating right through the game" mean?
20140218 19:06:43< Dugi> I mean a facility to rate it in a game's window, not through some browser links and having to sign up to the forums.
20140218 19:06:59< zookeeper> right
20140218 19:08:16< shadowm> Anonymous ratings would be subject to scripted abuse.
20140218 19:08:33< Dugi> IP addresses could be written down, and suspicious votes from similar IP addresses belonging to the same VPN or local network can be found quite easily.
20140218 19:08:58< shadowm> What about people behind NAT?
20140218 19:09:28< Dugi> A potential abuser would not pay to ten anonimysers to get so many IP adresses. Tor requires a browser. What is NAT?
20140218 19:09:44< shadowm> Network Address Translation, a technique that is quite lucrative for ISPs (esp. mobile carriers) in the crowded IPv4 world.
20140218 19:10:06< shadowm> Essentially, multiple network interfaces all hiding behind a single address.
20140218 19:10:26< shadowm> Also, uh, Tor doesn't require a browser.
20140218 19:11:17< Dugi> Unlikely that two wesnoth players will receive the same IP address. Maybe MAC adress and IP address together could be unique.
20140218 19:11:44< shadowm> Speaking as a forum moderator, it's not as unlikely as you think.
20140218 19:11:57< Dugi> I've seen Tor always attached to a browser. Using Tor with Wesnoth must require really advanced skills not many people possess.
20140218 19:12:18< shadowm> As for MAC addresses, I don't know of a cross-platform interface to get those and they may be forged by the drivers or firmware.
20140218 19:13:01< Dugi> Really? I didn't think that. Aren't these just sockuppeteers finding excuses when caught?
20140218 19:14:35< shadowm> It'd be silly from us to instantly assume that because two people from an ISP that has IPs from RIPE NCC's region have the same IP they are necessarily sockpuppeting.
20140218 19:14:53< Dugi> I agree that there will always be ways to cheat, but most people won't use the complex ways to cheat. Otherwise, the only way to stop all problems of this kind would be to make manually picked forum regulars do everything.
20140218 19:15:15< shadowm> The unallocated IPv4 pool for that region was depleted two years ago or so and NAT and IPv6 addresses will become more common for that reason.
20140218 19:17:07< Dugi> Maybe it could be somehow concealed that his IP address is known to have voted already. Things like this should not affect the count too much.
20140218 19:17:21< shadowm> This very network has had many issues in the past with mobile carriers from USA, too.
20140218 19:17:31< shadowm> IRC network, that is.
20140218 19:18:58< Dugi> Can these shared IPs be identified or listed somehow?
20140218 19:19:19< shadowm> Not without asking the ISP directly AFAIK, and even that is subject to change.
20140218 19:19:23< zookeeper> i guess i sort of agree that cheating would very unlikely become a problem. who has the incentive to manipulate ratings? aside from a disgruntled script kiddie wanting to make a mess of things, only the add-on authors themselves. and who isn't gonna notice if a crappy add-on suddenly jumps up in ratings without any explanation?
20140218 19:19:40< shadowm> Since they purchased those blocks, they are free to do whatever they want with them.
20140218 19:20:37< shadowm> zookeeper: But some paranoid people could assume that the ratings are being abused!
20140218 19:22:03< Dugi> zookeeper: That could be partially compensated by reviews, if the review says something seriously different from the rating, there is probably an abuse and the count should be reset or reverted. Awkward reviews might be just reported.
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20140218 19:44:51< iceiceice> thunderstruck: i have some questions about how carryover data is being applied in mp campaigns
20140218 19:45:53< iceiceice> i'm working on something to allow carryover data to also include some WML which is merged with the next level before start,
20140218 19:45:53< iceiceice> so that the previous scenario can to a limited extent reconfigure the next,
20140218 19:45:53< iceiceice> but i am finding from debugging that carryover data is actually applied twice in an mp campaign which is making it complicated
20140218 19:46:48< iceiceice> specifically i'm trying to figure out what bad things happen if i comment out this line of code? https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/blob/master/src/playcampaign.cpp#L572
20140218 19:47:15< iceiceice> i have been testing it a little and i can't tell that anything goes wrong, but still its there for a reason i suppose
20140218 19:49:42< irker900> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 5a7de1e4ac8c / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/18_Northern_Alliance.cfg: SotBE S18: have gryphons open a gap for Kapou'e http://git.io/eGWJTQ
20140218 19:50:06< mattsc> zookeeper: how's that ^ ?I mean how it looks in the scenario, rather than the code
20140218 19:50:28< mattsc> ... itself.  [I wish I could have used [harm_unit], but there was always some tidbit that prevented that.]
20140218 19:50:29 * zookeeper looks
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20140218 19:54:28< zookeeper> steelclad melee sound sounds badly timed
20140218 19:54:55< zookeeper> mattsc, and that wasn't directed at you :p
20140218 19:54:55< mattsc> zookeeper: I assumed so.  :)
20140218 19:56:57< zookeeper> mattsc, looks good to me, except that i'd rather have the gryphons off the orc immediately when they move into position, rather than at the end of the cutscene
20140218 19:57:30< mattsc> As in, move them into position for the attack?
20140218 19:59:58< zookeeper> i mean attack immediately after they stop moving
20140218 20:00:01< mattsc> oh: s/off/attack?  ;)
20140218 20:00:02< zookeeper> err, yes, off == kill
20140218 20:00:26< mattsc> Okay, that's a trivial change.
20140218 20:01:15< mattsc> zookeeper: umm, and move one in, attack, then move the other in and attack?
20140218 20:01:47< mattsc> Or move both in first, then attack with both?
20140218 20:01:48< zookeeper> i don't think i have a preference :P
20140218 20:01:54< mattsc> okay
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20140218 20:06:42< aquileia> zookeeper: just tell me when I get on your nerves, but is there anything I could do to help in  getting the shadow mages in before 1.11.10 ?
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20140218 20:08:50< zookeeper> aquileia, well i'm intending on getting them in, but i don't mind if you keep reminding me about it daily just so i don't forget ;)
20140218 20:08:50< aquileia> Nice to hear
20140218 20:08:54< irker900> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master a48ce6dff206 / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/18_Northern_Alliance.cfg: SotBE S18: make gryphons attack right after moving in http://git.io/5MC0Yw
20140218 20:09:16< mattsc> zookeeper: ^
20140218 20:10:20< zookeeper> great
20140218 20:10:20< mattsc> aquileia: if you need hints how to get on zookeeper's nerves, just ask me.  I'm an expert at that.  ;)
20140218 20:10:28< aquileia> I think I'm getting good at it as well, but thanks for the offer ;)
20140218 20:10:45< zookeeper> oh you know nothing
20140218 20:11:48< aquileia> There is much to learn
20140218 20:13:18< aquileia> mattsc: I would not waste your time with these things before Grnk part 2 is out
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20140218 20:15:56< mattsc> aquileia: :D  Well, I have one scenario to go with SotBE, after that I am back to my two favorite 4-letter Wesnoth characters.
20140218 20:15:56< aquileia> and Ron?
20140218 20:15:56< mattsc> Close (and missing one letter)
20140218 20:15:56< aquileia> just out of interest
20140218 20:15:56< aquileia> no, I know you mean Fred
20140218 20:15:56< mattsc> Oh, I see, I misunderstood.
20140218 20:16:01< happygrue> I'ml not seeing alignment of units displayed anymore, and I don't see a bug report anymore
20140218 20:19:16< happygrue> is that something that is intentional for some reason or should I file one?
20140218 20:19:37< mattsc> Nah, Ron is just a "placeholder" for Fred, really.
20140218 20:19:38< mattsc> Poor little Ron - we'll kill him off eventually.   :x 
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20140218 20:19:38< mattsc> happygrue: it's intentional in the current version, but I don't know if fendrin plans to keep it that way.  There's been some discussion.
20140218 20:19:38< happygrue> ah, thanks
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20140218 20:19:57< happygrue> I think it is pretty important to display, what is the reason for hiding it fendrin?
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20140218 20:21:19< happygrue> just not enough space?
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20140218 20:29:22< happygrue> So right now the current bonus ToD bonus for the unit is displayed and you can mouseover that to see it's alinment.  IMO, that would be better if reversed
20140218 20:30:37< happygrue> knowing the alignment of the unit is far better than knowing the current bonus in terms of useful info for the player.  
20140218 20:31:21< happygrue> and if you forget what "lawful" means then you shouldn't be playing Wesnoth
20140218 20:31:27< happygrue> I MEAN... you could mouseover it... ;)
20140218 20:34:53< Dugi> Goodbye.
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20140218 20:43:35< mattsc> Blargh.  I really hope that I won't have to play this scenario more than a couple times before I have it sorted out ...
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20140218 22:21:51< fendrin> happygrue: alignment is already added back to the UI. There is a forum thread about the UI development, I will give you a link when the forum is back up.
20140218 22:22:10< happygrue> oh, I see
20140218 22:22:13< happygrue> thanks 
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20140218 23:00:25-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20140218 23:04:44-!- Soliton [~Soliton@wesnoth/developer/soliton] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
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20140218 23:05:24-!- Soliton [~Soliton@wesnoth/developer/soliton] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140218 23:08:54-!- Gallaecio [~quassel@84.120.219.139.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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20140218 23:17:00-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Octalot, timotei, bumbadadabum
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20140218 23:18:42-!- Upth [~ogmar@108-85-91-228.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20140218 23:21:07-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140218 23:26:22-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20140218 23:53:18-!- mattsc [~mattsc@fw.hia.nrc.ca] has quit [Quit: Ciao]
--- Log closed Wed Feb 19 00:00:03 2014