--- Log opened Tue Feb 04 00:00:33 2014
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20140204 00:23:33< Gambit> Hehe. Today's XKCD has some amusing hidden context.
20140204 00:24:16< Gambit> The XKCD subsection of reddit was taken over by an anti-semitic, conspiracy theorist, men's rights activist, red piller.
20140204 00:24:29< Gambit> Randall was not happy to learn this.
20140204 00:24:47< Gambit> I expect more comics like this to come.
20140204 00:27:19< _8680_> Having read the HTML source… I’m not seeing any hidden content, amusing or otherwise.
20140204 00:27:27< Gambit> [/blatantly obvious attempt to revive this channel with potentially controversial topic]
20140204 00:28:08< Gambit> _8680_: The comic is troll-bait for online misogynists.
20140204 00:28:29< Gambit> Randal came on reddit and said he had plans.
20140204 00:28:59< oldlaptop> the ones that aren't flamewar-based are more interesting
20140204 00:29:02< _8680_> …Oh. I read the ‘x’ in your “context” as an ‘n’.
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20140204 01:03:44< Gambit> &youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgTQglGvNUs
20140204 01:03:45< janebot> "Goat Simulator 1st Alpha Gameplay" Length: 1:11 (by CoffeeStainStudios)
20140204 01:03:45< janebot> 18036 views, 1050 likes, 30 dislikes (no region restrictions) http://youtu.be/WgTQglGvNUs
20140204 01:12:31< Gambit> shadowm: perl ithreads are horrible
20140204 01:12:41< shadowm> Why are you responding to me here?
20140204 01:12:44< Gambit> They clone the entire state of the program for each thread
20140204 01:12:49< Gambit> 2 threads == double your memory usage
20140204 01:12:51< Gambit> 3 == triple
20140204 01:13:02< Gambit> And so on.
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20140204 01:13:35< Gambit> shadowm: Because I'm trying to revive this channel and we can totally talk about perl here. :<
20140204 01:13:50< Gambit> lol
20140204 01:13:56< shadowm> Okay, any language you know where threads are easy and don't suck?
20140204 01:14:22< Gambit> Nope. This is why I started relying on OS forking behavior for Gambot.
20140204 01:14:35< shadowm> Yeah, but I can't fork here. I'm not writing a bot.
20140204 01:14:57< shadowm> I need to alter the parent's state, update a variable.
20140204 01:15:01< Gambit> Well the key then is to start the threads early
20140204 01:15:26< shadowm> But my last attempt indicates that I need to rethink the whole program to retrofit threads.
20140204 01:15:33< _8680_> Lua has its coroutines.
20140204 01:15:36< _8680_> Easy concurrency is one of Rust’s main features/goals, I believe.
20140204 01:15:58< Gambit> shadowm: You could use this as an opportunity to try that standalone JS thing I always hear about.
20140204 01:16:03< shadowm> More specifically, I'm talking of valen's backend, the service that powers status.wesnoth.org.
20140204 01:16:06< Gambit> Its name escapes me now... hmmm
20140204 01:16:08< shadowm> Gambit: node.js
20140204 01:16:11< Gambit> !
20140204 01:16:14< _8680_> D’s facilities seemed straightforward, until I couldn’t get them to stop segmentation-faulting.
20140204 01:16:22< shadowm> Yeah, well, ai0867.net runs apache.
20140204 01:16:57< shadowm> _8680_: Have you used D?
20140204 01:17:06< _8680_> A bit.
20140204 01:17:13< shadowm> How does it compare to C++?
20140204 01:17:15< _8680_> I’m no expert on it.
20140204 01:17:17< Gambit> Must... resist... sex jokes.
20140204 01:17:22< shadowm> ...
20140204 01:17:25< _8680_> …What?
20140204 01:17:27< Gambit> shadowm wants to try the D. :<
20140204 01:17:51< shadowm> I was going to say "must resist C++/C-- jokes" and then you went for something racier.
20140204 01:18:09< shadowm> Great job, Gambit.
20140204 01:18:45< Gambit> I'm here all week.
20140204 01:19:27< Gambit> If you just need one other thread, you'll be fine with perl
20140204 01:19:45< _8680_> In syntax, D felt to me to be a bit closer to C than C++, but generally similar.
20140204 01:19:46< shadowm> I need an arbitrary amount of threads.
20140204 01:19:50< shadowm> Well, ideally.
20140204 01:19:53< Gambit> I needed a giant dynamic pool and managing them was absurd.
20140204 01:20:09< Gambit> shadowm: Okay explain this program to me.
20140204 01:20:33< shadowm> Gambit: Currently valen tests the wesnoth.org facilities in a synchronous fashion.
20140204 01:20:50< shadowm> At least on nanacore (3.5G...), that's a waste of valuable time.
20140204 01:21:19< shadowm> It'd be far faster to try to establish connections to all facilities at the same time, or at least to all instances of a facility running on the same host.
20140204 01:21:55< _8680_> I don’t remember D 2 lacking language features of C++11 or vice versa, except that D has built-in unit-testing support.
20140204 01:22:09< Gambit> I'd solve this with a bunch of smaller programs. Each one dedicated to its own resource that dies when it's done with the current update and rerun again on a schedule.
20140204 01:22:14< Gambit> But I guess you said you can't fork...
20140204 01:22:22< shadowm> I can fork, but I don't want to.
20140204 01:22:31< _8680_> I haven’t used D enough to thoroughly compare its language features with C++11’s, though.
20140204 01:22:48< shadowm> The idea is that the main process receives per-facility status reports and finally writes it to json.
20140204 01:23:15< Gambit> How long does the entire synchronous update take?
20140204 01:23:26< Gambit> And how often does it happen?
20140204 01:23:47< shadowm> Every 15 minutes, no idea how long it takes in the production server.
20140204 01:23:53< Gambit> This seems like premature optimization.
20140204 01:24:08< shadowm> The new front-end will be configured to refresh every 15 minutes according to clock.
20140204 01:24:13< _8680_> D 2’s standard library seemed about equal to C++11’s. It also felt more like C.
20140204 01:24:17< shadowm> 00:00, 00:15, 00:30, 00:45.
20140204 01:24:35< Gambit> I have to go for a few minutes.
20140204 01:24:37< shadowm> So ideally the back-end will run on 00:59, 00:14, 00:29, 00:44 and be done within a minute.
20140204 01:24:46< Gambit> shadowm: Java? But that's even more of a pig.
20140204 01:24:52< _8680_> Except for one thing — D’s standard library has the most featureful regular expression library I’ve seen in any language.
20140204 01:25:18< shadowm> _8680_: Even Perl?
20140204 01:25:23< _8680_> Yes.
20140204 01:25:46< shadowm> Gambit: I haven't used Java, ever. Except for introductory courses.
20140204 01:26:06< shadowm> I'd rather use Perl or Python, or even C++ as a last resort (last last last resort).
20140204 01:26:30< shadowm> (Or PHP as a last last last last last last resort.)
20140204 01:26:47< shadowm> On nanacore, a test run now took 23 seconds.
20140204 01:26:58< shadowm> It usually takes longer than that.
20140204 01:28:31< _8680_> I believe the reason I chose D was for its regular expression library’s support for arbitrary patterns in negative lookbehind assertions, though I don’t remember what my use-case was.
20140204 01:29:45< shadowm> A test run on the production server took 12 seconds, 10 of which were wasted on probing a wesnothd instance that doesn't exist.
20140204 01:30:08< shadowm> Okay, I'll settle for the synchronous model and establish time limits.
20140204 01:30:55< _8680_> I believe Erlang is supposed to have good thread support, though I haven’t gotten around to learning it yet.
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20140204 01:33:41< Gambit> shadowm: I probably overstated the horribleness of perl threads.
20140204 01:33:54< Gambit> If you know exactly how many you need and you aren't constantly starting/stopping them, you should be fine.
20140204 01:34:15< Gambit> You can easily control the memory usage by starting the threads as early as possible in execution (so that the program is as small as possible when the cloning occurs)
20140204 01:34:25< shadowm> Well, as I said, I tried adding thread support.
20140204 01:34:27< Gambit> And you can try loading dependencies at runtime
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20140204 01:34:33< Gambit> And only in the threads that need them
20140204 01:34:48< shadowm> But... sharing variables that are more complicated than scalars turned out to be ridiculously difficult and I gave up.
20140204 01:35:05< Gambit> why do you need to share anything other than a scalar?
20140204 01:35:19< shadowm> There is a lot of data to pass around during testing.
20140204 01:35:39< Gambit> debug stuff?
20140204 01:35:43< Gambit> they can all write to STDOUT
20140204 01:35:45< shadowm> So I currently handle tables including each facility's status, hostname, IP, reponse time, description, ...
20140204 01:35:52< shadowm> I mean when testing a facility.
20140204 01:36:15< shadowm> Each facility can have multiple instances.
20140204 01:36:16< Gambit> description, hostname, and IP can be in the main thread
20140204 01:36:52< Gambit> all your threads should be doing is occasionally checking the things and updating their online/offline status
20140204 01:37:00< Gambit> the main thread can calculate uptime and what not
20140204 01:37:18< Gambit> yeah you're probably going to have a lot of rewriting to do :\
20140204 01:37:39< shadowm> Yeah, I'm postponing that for valen3.
20140204 01:37:59< shadowm> Maybe I'll also rewrite it in Python by then too.
20140204 01:38:17< shadowm> I don't know you, but the $s and @s and %s are starting to annoy me.
20140204 01:39:30< _8680_> Why Python?
20140204 01:39:52< shadowm> Because I know enough Python to learn the rest.
20140204 01:40:34< shadowm> Besides Perl and Python I only know C++ and PHP, and I already stated my stance on those two for this task.
20140204 01:40:45< _8680_> Lua?
20140204 01:41:00< shadowm> ... Lua...
20140204 01:41:14< shadowm> For a public facing service's backend...
20140204 01:41:20< shadowm> When I need to do networky stuff...
20140204 01:41:50< shadowm> Doesn't sound all that attractive to me.
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20140204 01:42:02< celticminstrel> I expect Lua can do that!
20140204 01:42:11< celticminstrel> ...definitely not what it's meant for, though.
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20140204 01:48:23< shadowm> Yeah, it sounds wrong.
20140204 01:49:23< shadowm> Don't take me wrong -- I love Lua as a scripting language, but...
20140204 01:49:38< Gambit> Lua is gross. Kill all Lua.
20140204 01:50:02< shadowm> One year ban.
20140204 01:50:13< vultraz_old> Dungeon
20140204 01:51:26< _8680_> Lua can dynamically link in C libraries, if necessary.
20140204 01:52:41< _8680_> Would this be a CGI script, or independent of the Web server?
20140204 01:54:02< Gambit> an independent script that occasionally dumps to a json file is probably the safest thing.
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20140204 02:29:18< shadowm> Yeah, what Gambit said.
20140204 02:30:23< shadowm> Although it's a fire-and-forget thing atm, actually. A cronjob takes care of running it often enough to be useful.
20140204 02:32:30< _8680_> The main Lua networking library seems to be “LuaSocket”, but it doesn’t appear to have been updated for Lua 5.2.
20140204 02:33:20< _8680_> I haven’t used Lua’s facilities for linking in C libraries, but use of them seems to be fairly common.
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20140204 02:50:23< oldlaptop> lua makes incompatible changes to the language and only increment the minor version number
20140204 02:50:42< oldlaptop> this makes me want to hit someone over the head with a compiler error
20140204 02:51:36< _8680_> I don’t think it’s supposed to be a semver.
20140204 02:52:41< _8680_> The first number seems to be for more fundamental changes.
20140204 02:53:19< oldlaptop> like the kind of changes that make code from the last version not work anymore
20140204 02:54:13< _8680_> Battle for Wesnoth also makes backward-incompatible changes in second-number releases.
20140204 02:54:37< oldlaptop> oh, and only Debian and *bsd seem to package it taking this into account
20140204 02:54:52< shadowm> Perl seems to do the same.
20140204 02:55:05< oldlaptop> Wesnoth isn't a library/programming language
20140204 02:55:09< oldlaptop> well, I suppose WML is
20140204 02:55:52< _8680_> WML is what I was referring to.
20140204 02:56:34< oldlaptop> it's still different
20140204 02:56:59< oldlaptop> it's not as though you run around packaging WML as a general-purpose programming language all on its own
20140204 02:57:08< oldlaptop> its sole purpose is to change wesnoth's behavior
20140204 02:58:01< oldlaptop> meanwhile everyone who writes some C/C++ thing using lua just tosses a convenience copy in with their code and forgets about it
20140204 02:58:23< oldlaptop> and then when upstream makes some critical bugfix hilarity ensues
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20140204 22:18:38< tekelili> Hi, is this right place to address a balance issue?
20140204 22:19:31< shadowm> Depends.
20140204 22:20:14< tekelili> I would like to ask for a nerf on Darvish Lord range damage, but dont know if was better post in forum or ask here
20140204 22:20:35< shadowm> The right place in general is Multiplayer Development, with replays and enough past experience to support your arguments.
20140204 22:21:15< tekelili> however I was advised by a moderator in past to not use forum for that :/
20140204 22:21:49 * lipkab wonders why'd a moderator suggest that
20140204 22:21:56< tekelili> noy4
20140204 22:21:59< shadowm> I mean, just saying "hey, XYZ unit (who is not even usually seen in Default) is OP, nerf it" isn't an argument.
20140204 22:22:56< shadowm> In that case you should ask that moderator directly what to do then.
20140204 22:23:13< tekelili> I can provide arguments, just asking where to do it before :)
20140204 22:23:37< shadowm> You are perfectly free to discuss the issue here, but you will not be heard by the relevant people, and most people here probably aren't experienced enough to be of any help.
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20140204 22:24:35< tekelili> lol, I was provided with similar reasons to not use forum
20140204 22:25:40< lipkab> tekelili: I'm afraid that noy isn't really up-to-date with this stuff.
20140204 22:26:20< lipkab> MP Development is definitely the best place for these kinds of discussions nowadays.
20140204 22:26:30< tekelili> ah kk, thanks :)
20140204 22:26:37< celticminstrel> Not to use forum for what now?
20140204 22:28:14< shadowm> For the conversation you missed which is in the public logs linked in the channel's topic.
20140204 22:29:08< celticminstrel> Grrr.
20140204 22:30:50< celticminstrel> Ah, I see.
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--- Log closed Wed Feb 05 00:00:43 2014