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20140212 14:01:01< wot_> is the server down
20140212 14:01:20< Soliton> check the link in the topic.
20140212 14:01:51< wot_> thanks but
20140212 14:02:02< wot_> how do I know if it is up 
20140212 14:02:05< wot_> on the master it says issues but
20140212 14:02:10< wot_> whats the difference between that and the 1.10
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20140212 14:02:55< Soliton> master is redirecting to the others.
20140212 14:03:15< wot_> anyway way to connec tto 1.10 directly then?
20140212 14:03:45< Soliton> yeah, you need to give the right port, let me check...
20140212 14:05:34< Soliton> port 14999
20140212 14:06:47< wot_> wait is it not 15000
20140212 14:06:55< wot_> the port is written when u use the server list
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20140212 20:59:55< danShumway> Hi, not to bother anyone, but I'm wondering if anyone would be willing to answer some questions about Wesnoth's development process?
20140212 21:00:33< danShumway> I'm doing some research into how Open Source games are designed/make design decisions.
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20140212 21:16:28< zookeeper> danShumway, ask away
20140212 21:18:27< danShumway> Awesome, thanks!
20140212 21:19:06< danShumway> So, Wesnoth was originally designed by one person, I think by the name of White.
20140212 21:19:19< zookeeper> yes, david white
20140212 21:19:46< danShumway> Do you know at what point he originally released the game?  I mean, was it a playable product, or did he propose the idea and some of the engine first?
20140212 21:20:11< zookeeper> it was playable, let me find a link...
20140212 21:22:16< zookeeper> nevermind that, can't find what i thought.
20140212 21:22:22< danShumway> No problem.
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20140212 21:22:45< zookeeper> anyway, it was released at some very early point, but as far as i know it was fully playable
20140212 21:23:06< danShumway> Do you know how he originally went about releasing it?  2003 was early for Github I think, was he using Sourceforge or something similar?
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20140212 21:23:21< shadowm> The 0.1 version I got hold of only had two playable scenarios IIRC.
20140212 21:24:36< danShumway> And I'm assuming only a couple of the eventual races?
20140212 21:25:10< zookeeper> i'm pretty sure it was just some elvish, human and orcish units at that point
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20140212 21:26:19< danShumway> What did the community start to look like when it first came out?  Were most people interested in developing the engine, or were people getting involved in things like balancing and gameplay?
20140212 21:27:50< galegosimpatico> Probably both. Why bother?
20140212 21:27:59 * zookeeper wasn't around that early
20140212 21:28:22 * galegosimpatico was a win98 kiddo
20140212 21:29:45< danShumway> The main question I guess I'm curious about is, was design mostly being done by White, or was there some type of community process to make those decisions?
20140212 21:30:46< galegosimpatico> There are some screens of the early versions. There you can see elven fighters and archers had almost the current stats.
20140212 21:31:36< danShumway> So not a huge amount has changed, I guess?
20140212 21:31:39< shadowm> I made a series of informal reviews of four of the earliest Wesnoth versions back in 2010 too: http://shadowm.rewound.net/articles.php
20140212 21:31:57< danShumway> Thanks!
20140212 21:32:00< zookeeper> i dropped dave a note that there's someone here asking questions about that stuff, so with some luck he might drop by sometime soon and you can ask him directly. if/when that happens is anyone's guess, but you might consider sticking around for a while.
20140212 21:32:05< galegosimpatico> If you get deeper and build an old version, you can see human wizards have changed more. But talking about graphics and everything outside the core, it is obvious the impact of a larger contributor base.
20140212 21:32:24< danShumway> That makes sense.
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20140212 21:33:13< danShumway> The core game seems to stay pretty consistent, but you guys still make decisions about other elements - the most recent features for planning moves springs to mind.
20140212 21:33:35< zookeeper> some of the very original features (like the game rules) have remained largely untouched, it's more like stuff being added than any core aspects being revised
20140212 21:34:24< danShumway> And there has been, at least for as long as I remember, a pretty focused description of what those features and stuff tries to do, right?
20140212 21:35:49< danShumway> You have, in the site FAQ, almost a design document of sorts, albeit one that's meant to be public facing.
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20140212 21:42:30< danShumway> Basically, what I'm trying to research is how Open Source communities avoid some of the steriotypical "designed by commitee" problems that seem at first glance like they *should* pop up in development.
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20140212 21:42:39< Sirp_> Hello.
20140212 21:43:27< zookeeper> danShumway, ^ there he is
20140212 21:43:45< danShumway> Oh, awesome!
20140212 21:43:48< danShumway> Hello.
20140212 21:43:51< tdk27> the key difference is between democratic development and collective development. OS software is developed collectively by volunteers, but (generally) not democratically voted on by said volunteers
20140212 21:44:50< tdk27> so I can write all the patches I like to turn wesnoth into a deterministic real time game, but they'll just be rejected
20140212 21:44:50< danShumway> I think that makes sense.  So the thought process is that you can get input from people, but you don't need to implement it?
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20140212 21:45:47< galegosimpatico> I do not know, but I think that is exactly what Github promotes
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20140212 21:46:53< danShumway> From a software perspective, I believe you're right.  People fork projects, do some development, and then request they be merged back into upstream, I believe?
20140212 21:47:50< Sirp_> danShumway: that happens with some software projects. It hasn't been common on Wesnoth.
20140212 21:47:51< zookeeper> we've only recently moved to git and github
20140212 21:48:06< zookeeper> and actual branching/forking has been very rare
20140212 21:48:38< danShumway> Do you typically work with a single core team of developers?
20140212 21:48:43< shadowm> zookeeper: People who've been using git-svn before may have been working with their own private branches, though.
20140212 21:49:07< Sirp_> in Wesnoth usually somebody comes along and submits enough sensible patches and says enough reasonable things to make sure they are a decent developer and probably not crazy (or at least if they are crazy, the right kind of crazy) and then we give them source control write access
20140212 21:49:18< shadowm> I am saying this because that's how I've managed my most complicated work since around 2009.
20140212 21:49:36< galegosimpatico> Older systems I have seen in other projects were about: 1. Join a team, and 2. Then ask for something that was published in the bugzilla, trac or whichever management system.
20140212 21:49:56< zookeeper> excluding summer of code, 90% of the time the process is 1) someone shows up who wants to contribute 2) that someone does some contributions which are deemed good 3) that someone gets commit access
20140212 21:50:55< danShumway> So you try to actually get to know what the contributions are/who they're from, as opposed to someone annonymous.
20140212 21:51:01< Sirp_> then once somebody has commit access, they can more or less work on what they want. We expect people to behave like adults though and listen for feedback on whether what they are doing works well.
20140212 21:51:59< danShumway> Do you coordinate a lot of that through IRC?
20140212 21:53:04< zookeeper> yes, #wesnoth-dev is where most day-to-day small-scale coordination goes on. more important stuff with a wider scale also gets talked about on the forums or mailing list.
20140212 21:53:19< danShumway> That actually makes a lot of sense.
20140212 21:54:00< danShumway> Do you feel that the process you use for managing code/engine development is similar to what you'd use for making design decisions?
20140212 21:54:41< Sirp_> it's quite similar. Usually code and engine development has a much smaller set of stakeholders though and so it makes it a little different.
20140212 21:55:12< danShumway> Wesnoth seems like a fairly complete game, but let's say you decide to move an icon, or on a larger scale, add a new unit, or something.  Is that something you'd talk to the rest of the community about before doing?
20140212 21:55:21< Sirp_> i.e. it's not common for more than a few people to have much interest in an area of code in the engine. While scores of people are likely interested in some game design decision.
20140212 21:55:38< Sirp_> danShumway: it's up to the developer whose implementing it.
20140212 21:56:08< Sirp_> if somebody wants to move an icon because they think it'd look better my recommended way of approaching it is to just do it, and then you'll naturally get feedback on whether others think it's a good idea or not.
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20140212 21:56:27< Sirp_> different developers have had different approaches depending on what they're comfortable with, though.
20140212 21:56:39< Sirp_> it also depends on how much up-front investment you have to put in
20140212 21:56:55< Sirp_> if I think moving an icon is a good idea, it's easy to do. So I'll do it. Then I'll get feedback on it. 
20140212 21:57:17< galegosimpatico> Moreover there is the concept of the addon system, which makes a huge battlefield for candidate changes. I am (maybe wrongly) assuming Delfador and Mermen campaigns came from there.
20140212 21:57:22< Sirp_> If I want to make some dramatic change that'll take 40 hours of work, I might want to get some feedback on if people think it's a good idea, since I wouldn'tw ant to put all that work in and then have to revert it later.
20140212 21:57:32< galegosimpatico> Regarding units and races.
20140212 21:57:52< Sirp_> right, we encourage people to put experimental stuff on the add-on server so people can download and try it out
20140212 21:58:00< danShumway> That makes sense as well.  Wesnoth is so extendable, you could make a change as a mod and get feedback before making any decisions.
20140212 21:58:13< galegosimpatico> For the system there is the development branch (1.9, 1.11, 1.13... and git head)
20140212 21:59:05< galegosimpatico> Sometimes the git head changes abruptly, but not to the point of causing brain damage.
20140212 21:59:08< shadowm> galegosimpatico: Pretty much every campaign added since 1.0 came from add-ons.
20140212 21:59:27< danShumway> And I'm assuming that you have some type of internal design bible, or at least a set of core philosophies that the you use internally when talking about changes or additions like that.
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20140212 22:00:20< zookeeper> danShumway, for larger changes, developers don't tend to specifically go looking for opinions of the playerbase at large (except maybe for some usability issues). if the rest of the developers don't heavily object then it's not likely to annoy the regular players either, and people rightly don't tend to make massive changes without having discussed it with other developers first.
20140212 22:01:02< danShumway> That makes sense.
20140212 22:01:16< Sirp_> danShumway: a lot of things suffer from the "bicycle rack problem" or whatever it's called. If you go and start a forum thread, "hey where should this icon go?" you'll get 30 different random opinions and likely poor quality feedback.
20140212 22:02:16< Sirp_> if you just go and do it you'll be more likely to get high quality feedback from people who actually care.
20140212 22:03:17< danShumway> Which is why modding makes so much sense.  You can kind of in a weird way use mods as your patch requests.
20140212 22:04:10< zookeeper> well, sure but that only applies to content changes. the khalifate faction being a prime example
20140212 22:05:09< danShumway> It's a bad question to ask, but how would you approach design in a context where you didn't have that luxury - ie a story driven game, or something that didn't have a lot of room for expansion?  Would you still try to involve a larger community, or just get input from the core team?
20140212 22:06:32< galegosimpatico> There is always room for detail adding
20140212 22:06:47< shadowm> A larger community would be useful in that case for obtaining art assets, mostly.
20140212 22:06:48< zookeeper> i think you'd need to have a competent core team to get the game to a 1.0 stage; where the "story mode" or whatever is actually complete, and where further development would be expansion and improvement rather than finishing the WIP.
20140212 22:07:00< shadowm> And promotion.
20140212 22:07:03< galegosimpatico> 1.10 shown a great improvement in sea effects
20140212 22:07:41< zookeeper> it's pretty hard to say how you'd approach a situation like that, when it depends greatly on the people in your team
20140212 22:08:44< zookeeper> if you have no team then your best bet would be to invite people to join and then give them more or less free reign... if you have a team then it depends on what they're like
20140212 22:09:09< zookeeper> and obviously depends on the specifics of the game as well :p
20140212 22:09:14< danShumway> Another poor question to ask, but do you think that most Open Source games take the same approach?  I know the Nethack team was very secretive about their decisions inbetween releases, but many other projects seem to be very very open.
20140212 22:10:32< Sirp_> danShumway: well, do note that Wesnoth started off as a single player campaign that had a storyline ... it was designed as a single player experience.
20140212 22:10:42< danShumway> I did not know that.
20140212 22:10:44< Sirp_> the expansion and so forth emerged later on
20140212 22:11:05< Sirp_> once others started expressing a desire to develop their own campaigns I added a plugin architecture to allow that
20140212 22:12:38< danShumway> I would not have guessed that, but it makes sense. The Wikipedia article said you were really interested in making the AI challenging with the original design?
20140212 22:12:46< galegosimpatico> Is this appearing in a master thesis or something? I want to find me in google scholar.
20140212 22:13:49< Sirp_> danShumway: yes, I wanted to make an AI that was interesting to play against. So I designed a game that I felt an AI could play at least reasonably well.
20140212 22:14:01< Sirp_> how successful I was in that is naturally a matter of debate. :p
20140212 22:14:29< danShumway> :) galegosimpatic: Unfortunately no, I'm just a college student.  My plan is to write a short presentation/article about ways that FOSS game developers avoid, for lack of a better term, death-by-community.
20140212 22:15:01< danShumway> IE, how they keep their design very focused, and how they develop more experimental projects.
20140212 22:16:04< Ivanovic> by the developers being selfish and just doing what they want to see included
20140212 22:16:15< danShumway> :) Fair enough.
20140212 22:16:18< Ivanovic> sometimes inspired by what players say but often also just ignoring the input
20140212 22:16:43< Ivanovic> somehow similar to other areas in live
20140212 22:16:54< Ivanovic> who "pays" for the result gets to decide what is being done
20140212 22:17:14< Ivanovic> payment can be in money for some contract or it can be in the time invested with "fame" being the only currency used
20140212 22:17:31< Ivanovic> if it is the latter the projects are usually something the people enjoy themselves
20140212 22:17:45< Ivanovic> either the way to the "goal" or the goal itself (to later on play it)
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20140212 22:19:15< danShumway> Do you think that lends itself well to certain games? - ie, things with high replayability, or games that allow for a lot of freedom within their gameplay?
20140212 22:19:35< Sirp_> danShumway: ultimately Wesnoth is made by people who think it's fun, and they tend to optimize the experience for themselves. We hope others find it fun too.
20140212 22:19:53< Sirp_> danShumway: and yes I think it lends itself much more heavily to games with more replayability
20140212 22:20:44< Sirp_> though it varies. I think when I first started on Wesnoth I thought back to gaming experiences I had as a 10 year old, and thought it would be enjoyable to try to recreate that kind of experience for some other people.
20140212 22:20:51< Sirp_> ...as well as for myself.
20140212 22:21:54< Ivanovic> danShumway: i would answer it the other way around: there are games which are usually *not* created using this open source way
20140212 22:22:27< Ivanovic> games which require lots of effort pulling in *exactly* on direction where everyone needs to closely colaborate and where the developers don't have too much freedom
20140212 22:22:53< Ivanovic> e.g. games which are extremely and almost only centered around the story and dialogs like (classical) adventure games
20140212 22:23:19< danShumway> That makes sense.
20140212 22:24:18< danShumway> I should head out.  Thanks so ridiculously much for talking with me, it was really really helpful.
20140212 22:24:27< Ivanovic> in fact i would say the open source model leads to games which are somehow modular where single persons are able to create some specific content block
20140212 22:24:56< Ivanovic> that is the bulk of developers will more or less work on the engine which is then shared for possibly different content
20140212 22:25:02< Ivanovic> (c.f. campaigns in wesnoth)
20140212 22:25:49< Ivanovic> if you compared this to a single adventure game like monkey island it would probably just not work, there the "classic" open source part could just be the engine providing a basis for different "game modules"
20140212 22:26:11< danShumway> That makes sense as well - I'm trying to think of some of the really popular open source games, and the ones that spring to mind are Wesnoth, Nethack, 0 A.D.
20140212 22:26:36< zookeeper> danShumway, let me drop you one link...
20140212 22:26:44< Ivanovic> you could also look at games like tuxkart or world of padman
20140212 22:26:51< Ivanovic> all somehow similar in the end
20140212 22:27:27< danShumway> Yes, now that you mention it.
20140212 22:27:53< Ivanovic> there are exceptions like frogatto, but again just the engine is open source...
20140212 22:27:54< Ivanovic> ;)
20140212 22:27:59< zookeeper> danShumway, a bit related: http://opengameart.org/content/attracting-and-keeping-artists-oss-game-project you might or might not find that relevant, but there you go.
20140212 22:28:20< danShumway> Looks really helpful.  Thanks.
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20140212 22:34:23< danShumway> Thanks again, it was really helpful.  I'll post a link whenever I finish the article.
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20140212 22:39:39< Sirp_> Ivanovic: what else could possibly be open source other than the engine?
20140212 22:40:42< Sirp_> images, music, etc don't have "source code"
20140212 22:41:50< shadowm> They can be provided in an obfuscated form, though
20140212 22:44:00< Sirp_> they can. Frogatto doesn't do any of that.
20140212 22:47:23< shadowm> I personally see it like this: in Wesnoth, I can reuse assets without asking anyone as long as I comply with the license. Frogatto requires me to ask people.
20140212 22:47:36< shadowm> That's somewhat discouraging to me.
20140212 22:50:46< oldlaptop> Sirp_: "open source" makes some sense when applied to vector graphics
20140212 22:51:12< oldlaptop> those have a basic model fairly similar to programs written in a compiled language
20140212 22:51:36< oldlaptop> you have a high level representation (SVG or something) which must be rendered in order to be displayed
20140212 22:52:59< galegosimpatico> I have seen the Wesnoth field units outside wesnoth, and that's cool. Gets viral.
20140212 22:53:23< galegosimpatico> If some kid starts making a meme with some unit portrait, you get more downloads.
20140212 22:57:09< Sirp_> shadowm: sure, we license the art differently in Frogatto. "open source" isn't quite right.
20140212 22:57:21< Sirp_> also FWIW we're planning on making *most* assets in Frogatto reusable.
20140212 22:58:13< Sirp_> oldlaptop: I agree. And in terms of that in Frogatto we don't obscure any of our "sources". I'm just making the point it's about reuse, not "open source" / obfuscation
20140212 22:59:03< oldlaptop> open source and "free as in speech" get conflated a lot
20140212 22:59:12< shadowm> It's certainly not Free, though.
20140212 23:00:05< galegosimpatico> Awww, water elemental got a portrait <3
20140212 23:00:46< shadowm> Huh?
20140212 23:02:21< galegosimpatico> Wait, maybe only in water era :s
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20140212 23:03:16< shadowm> Is that the era someone likes to complain about that inspired several of my commits between 1.10.0 and 1.11.0?
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20140212 23:03:35< shadowm> (By making it impossible for people to color their add-on names.)
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20140212 23:04:49< galegosimpatico> I see the era name colored as blue in git head
20140212 23:05:54< galegosimpatico> I like era of magic much better, but this one is OK though
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20140212 23:15:51< galegosimpatico> I keep being impressed of those scenarios combining big images with the hexagonal standard. And a campaign that is a great story 'To Lands Unknown'.
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20140212 23:25:25< shadowm> Yes, the era name is still subject to that, but the add-on name isn't.
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--- Log closed Thu Feb 13 00:00:23 2014