--- Log opened Mon Mar 10 00:00:15 2014
--- Day changed Mon Mar 10 2014
20140310 00:00:15< shadowm> fabi: Around?
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20140310 00:46:45< aquileia> mordante: The inheritance for structs in src\gui\auxiliary\window_builder is a bit unclear to me
20140310 00:48:14< aquileia> what should such a struct contain?
20140310 00:49:20< aquileia> e.g. slider offers a copy of private fields, password_box doesn't
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20140310 00:53:15< iceiceice> fabi: i'm going to try to fix the unit_map tests right now, or at least as many of them as i can 
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20140310 01:27:11-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.12 branch created | string+feature freeze active on 1.12 | 221 bugs, 351 feature requests, 27 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Alternate logs: http://wesnoth.debian.net | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20140310 01:33:37< Aishiko_laptop> iceiceice, is it an error when in a campaign an enemy boss losses a level between scenarios?
20140310 01:34:03< iceiceice> whats the context?
20140310 01:34:36< iceiceice> is it one of these scenarios where the enemy runs away just before you defeat them or something?
20140310 01:34:59< iceiceice> if so i would guess that its rather an oversight of the campaign designer than a bug in wesnoth
20140310 01:35:06< iceiceice> but hard to say from here
20140310 01:35:18< sachith500> hello guys :D
20140310 01:35:24< Aishiko_laptop> no you beat them and then let them go afterwards then a few scenarios later you run into them again only instead of being level X they are level Y lossing a level
20140310 01:35:29< sachith500> Aishiko_laptop: proposals today ;)
20140310 01:35:33< sachith500> you excited? :D
20140310 01:35:52< Aishiko_laptop> no horrified is more like it sachith500 
20140310 01:35:57< sachith500> hahaha
20140310 01:41:49< Aishiko_laptop> I feel that my biggest hurdle with getting accepted at all is with my writing of the proposal, the talk about yourself stuff, and getting a working bug free (as far as I can discern) patch submitted and accepted
20140310 01:44:28< Aishiko_laptop> right now I'm stuck, I think I know what is going on but not sure how to test it, to see if I am right
20140310 01:46:53< Aishiko_laptop> I think, that when the return value is sent from recall_dialog what it is sending is the unit ID, and from that I can get the individual recall cost by going and pulling that unit's object from the recall list and pulling out the value
20140310 01:47:41< sachith500> hmm ok
20140310 01:50:08< sachith500> well you can learn the code on the go
20140310 01:50:29< sachith500> what really matters is your passion I think :D
20140310 01:50:45< sachith500> how badly you want to contribute to wesnoth ^_^
20140310 01:50:51-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: Ciao]
20140310 01:52:46< Aishiko_laptop> well seeing as the spritesheet has been proposed since 2007 (at least) I also think it is a low priority item, and I can sort of see how things like AI improvements are higher priority as those have to continue to improve or lose players
20140310 01:53:53< sachith500> hmm :)
20140310 01:54:00< sachith500> and yet still you stuck with the project
20140310 01:54:17< sachith500> ;) I think that says something important
20140310 01:55:03 * Aishiko_laptop thinks it says she doesn't know enough or have the time to brought up to speed on any of the other projects in the time frame
20140310 01:55:16< sachith500> ah :\
20140310 01:55:23< sachith500> I'm short on time too
20140310 01:55:29< sachith500> i have 21 creds this semester
20140310 01:55:30< sachith500> >.<
20140310 01:55:40< sachith500> and multiple deadlines approaching fast.
20140310 01:55:49 * sachith500 feels his blood pressure rising.
20140310 01:56:08< sachith500> I would have done a bunch more pull requests otherwise
20140310 01:56:17< iceiceice> hmm... our unit test suite seems incredibly broken...
20140310 01:56:19< sachith500> or tried to, at least
20140310 01:56:22< iceiceice> more than i realized
20140310 01:56:26< sachith500> oh?
20140310 01:56:27< sachith500> how so?
20140310 01:56:59< Aishiko_laptop> sachith500, I've got 18 credits, 6 of which are all online with no regular interaction with the instructor, 
20140310 01:57:15< sachith500> ah
20140310 01:57:29< iceiceice> sachith: its better illustrated by firing up the tests yourself and seeing what happens, then trying to fix anything... XD
20140310 01:57:31< sachith500> the projects are the real cincher though
20140310 01:57:35< iceiceice> just like, "scons test"
20140310 01:57:36< Aishiko_laptop> but 18 is the max over here what is the max over at your school?
20140310 01:57:38< iceiceice> then "./test"
20140310 01:57:54< sachith500> cool iceiceice :D
20140310 01:57:59-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20140310 01:58:03< sachith500> we have 150 credits
20140310 01:58:05< sachith500> over 4 years
20140310 01:58:07< sachith500> -,-
20140310 01:58:24< sachith500> I think we can go as high as 30
20140310 01:58:26< sachith500> or so
20140310 01:58:45< sachith500> only some of the highest scorers at ALs get into our uni
20140310 01:58:51< sachith500> so they drive us like slaves
20140310 01:58:56 * sachith500 sobs uncontrollably.
20140310 01:59:44< sachith500> how many creds do you have in your course Aishiko_laptop
20140310 02:04:02< Aishiko_laptop> my current school?  degrees have anywhere from 64-76 credit hours over 2 years, the average student takes 15 credits a semester and at least one course in 1 summer session
20140310 02:05:35< sachith500> oh cool
20140310 02:06:15< sachith500> if your project doesn't get selected are you planning on implementing it anyway? :)
20140310 02:06:48< sachith500> obviously it wouldn't be a full time attempt like gsoc
20140310 02:09:54< Aishiko_laptop> depends on if another student gets picked for it, if so no I won't, it'll be their project and I wouldn't want to try and after the fact take it away from them, if not, I'd be willing to take a stab at it and see if I can get it to work
20140310 02:10:19< sachith500> awesome! :D
20140310 02:12:32< Aishiko_laptop> no I'm just stubborn when I get into a problem I'm like a dog with a bone I get obsessed with figuring out the problem until 1 of 2 things happen..... I crack the problem or I burn myself out and walk away in disgust for awhile... usually I'll return to the problem after a break when that later thing happens
20140310 02:15:25< sachith500> hahaa
20140310 02:15:33< Aishiko_laptop> how about yourself? if your project is not accepted will try to implement it anyway?
20140310 02:15:56< sachith500> I'm interested in 2 projects, I have a neat idea for the AI project
20140310 02:16:07< sachith500> I will probably give it a shot
20140310 02:16:19< sachith500> because I'm doing some research into that area anyway for a project of my own.
20140310 02:16:48< sachith500> I've been meaning to run my idea by mattsc or crab_
20140310 02:16:55< sachith500> but havent been able to catch them in a while
20140310 02:17:50< sachith500> the data analysis project is interesting, but for me to be satisfied by it
20140310 02:17:59< sachith500> I would want to implement a way of visualizing the data too
20140310 02:18:00< sachith500> which
20140310 02:18:02< sachith500> outside gsoc
20140310 02:18:07< sachith500> would be a bit too much, I feel
20140310 02:18:37< sachith500> the AI project is all about getting brainwaves and "aha!" moments.
20140310 02:18:37< Aishiko_laptop> mattsc is going to be scarce for the next week or so, he's on the road apparently.  so your best bet might to be to talk to crab_ or send an email to the mailing list for the devs
20140310 02:18:54< sachith500> oh really?
20140310 02:18:56< sachith500> cool cool
20140310 02:19:08< sachith500> I guess I'll get a proposal up, and then ask crab_ to review it?
20140310 02:19:35< Aishiko_laptop> that might be the best thing to do
20140310 02:19:41< sachith500> true
20140310 02:20:06< sachith500> I think I'm kinda ruining my chances by looking into 2 things at once, but hey, at least someone might be able to use all my research for wesnoth :D
20140310 02:25:25< Aishiko_laptop> maybe not I know that each year some people that do 2 or more proposals get one accepted
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20140310 02:27:13< sachith500> oh?
20140310 02:27:19< sachith500> well ok then :D
20140310 02:27:30< sachith500> I'd actually given up on the AI
20140310 02:27:44< sachith500> but then I had a brainwave during an evaluating function lecture
20140310 02:27:49< sachith500> I'm good friends with the lecturer
20140310 02:27:55-!- lc [~yaaic@177.98.216.115] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 02:27:56< sachith500> and we had a good ole discussion
20140310 02:28:28< Coffee_irc> sachith500: are you studying AI at university?
20140310 02:28:37< sachith500> coffee_irc yeah
20140310 02:28:44< sachith500> at uni and away from uni :P
20140310 02:28:51< sachith500> AI and ML is kind of my passion ^_^
20140310 02:28:55< sachith500> well games are my passion
20140310 02:29:07< sachith500> but there's not much of a game industry in my country
20140310 02:29:11< Coffee_irc> you done the nqueens or hanoi puzzles?
20140310 02:29:13< sachith500> so I settle for AI ^_^
20140310 02:29:23< sachith500> nqueens?
20140310 02:29:24< sachith500> yeah
20140310 02:29:27< Aishiko_laptop> sachith500, ML?
20140310 02:29:28< sachith500> I did that like
20140310 02:29:32< sachith500> machine learning
20140310 02:29:35< sachith500> i did it like
20140310 02:29:36< sachith500> erm
20140310 02:29:40< sachith500> 5 years ago?
20140310 02:29:44< sachith500> i cant remember
20140310 02:29:49< sachith500> hanoi
20140310 02:29:56< sachith500> has a easy proof
20140310 02:30:02< sachith500> i did that mathematically
20140310 02:30:06< Coffee_irc> the priniples of backtracking and such might be useful to apply to AI
20140310 02:30:17< sachith500> yeah I know
20140310 02:30:25< sachith500> I've done a lot of AI contests
20140310 02:30:30< sachith500> as well :)
20140310 02:30:40< sachith500> I'm a contest coder
20140310 02:30:45< sachith500> 5 years experience
20140310 02:30:46< sachith500> :D
20140310 02:30:53< Coffee_irc> wow :)
20140310 02:30:54< sachith500> all in C++ so that's to my advantage as well
20140310 02:30:58< sachith500> ^_^
20140310 02:31:03< sachith500> I love problem solving
20140310 02:31:04< sachith500> hehe
20140310 02:31:23< sachith500> would you like to see one of my bots
20140310 02:31:25< sachith500> in action?>
20140310 02:31:35< Coffee_irc> robocode or somehting?
20140310 02:31:41< sachith500> robogame
20140310 02:31:42< sachith500> yeah
20140310 02:31:49< Coffee_irc> yeah, that is awesome
20140310 02:31:55< Coffee_irc> I've got a few bots as well
20140310 02:32:02< sachith500> I have 3 seperate bots
20140310 02:32:03< sachith500> cool
20140310 02:32:03< Aishiko_laptop> thank you sachith500 I should have been able to guess that
20140310 02:32:12< sachith500> hehe :D
20140310 02:32:16< Coffee_irc> sachith500: which one is yours?
20140310 02:32:17< sachith500> http://robotgame.net/robot/8712
20140310 02:32:25< sachith500> all 3 are mine
20140310 02:32:25< sachith500> :P
20140310 02:32:47< sachith500> i havent added many of the advanced features i'd planned yet :\
20140310 02:32:59< sachith500> I did this when I had a bit of free time back in november
20140310 02:33:00< sachith500> i think
20140310 02:33:05< sachith500> about a day's work
20140310 02:33:16< sachith500> what's yours coffee_irc?
20140310 02:33:21< sachith500> let's have a challenge :P
20140310 02:33:29< Coffee_irc> I never published my best one
20140310 02:33:36< Coffee_irc> but I wrote some articles
20140310 02:33:41< sachith500> really?
20140310 02:33:52< Coffee_irc> yeah, just trying to find the links
20140310 02:33:54< sachith500> what's your current rank?
20140310 02:34:10< Coffee_irc> sachith500: I haven't done that for years
20140310 02:34:18< sachith500> oh ok
20140310 02:34:19< sachith500> :D
20140310 02:34:32< sachith500> it's fun though
20140310 02:34:46< sachith500> they should have more of this sorta thing ^^
20140310 02:35:21-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 02:35:31< sachith500> speak of the devil :P
20140310 02:35:31< Coffee_irc> sachith500: http://robocoderepository.com/BotDetail.jsp?id=3185 ;)
20140310 02:35:33< sachith500> mattsc ^_^
20140310 02:35:48< Coffee_irc> yeah, mattsc is your person for all things AI
20140310 02:35:56-!- tomreyn [~tomreyn@megaglest/team/tomreyn] has quit [Quit: tomreyn]
20140310 02:36:07< mattsc> sachith500: don't listen to Coffee_irc !
20140310 02:36:09< sachith500> cool! :D
20140310 02:36:15< mattsc> I have absolutely no background in AI.
20140310 02:36:18< Coffee_irc> ;)
20140310 02:36:19< sachith500> hahaha
20140310 02:36:25< sachith500> well mattsc I had this brainwave
20140310 02:36:27< sachith500> I'll share it now
20140310 02:36:32< mattsc> It's true though, I just like playing with things.
20140310 02:36:34< sachith500> and I'll put a proposal today
20140310 02:36:37< sachith500> my idea is :
20140310 02:36:45< sachith500> Wesnoth has a lot of similiar elements with chess
20140310 02:37:01< sachith500> that's the key observation (Fact A)
20140310 02:37:13< sachith500> Fact B : Chess has been mined exhaustively
20140310 02:37:25< sachith500> for evaluating functions, etc etc
20140310 02:37:46< sachith500> my idea is to incorporate some of the existing stuff for chess
20140310 02:37:55< Coffee_irc> sachith500: http://old.robowiki.net/robowiki?LinearTargeting/BuggyImplementations
20140310 02:37:57< sachith500> to make a great set of evaluating functions for wesnoth :D
20140310 02:38:28< Coffee_irc> that's an article I wrote to do linear targeting purely as a math function (no if else)
20140310 02:38:35< sachith500> wow
20140310 02:38:39< sachith500> you were really into it :D
20140310 02:39:16< Coffee_irc> yeah, I was into the maths asepct
20140310 02:39:20< sachith500> :D
20140310 02:39:35< Coffee_irc> I made functions so that the robot calculated the exact acceleration to turn and hug the wall perfectly
20140310 02:39:45< sachith500> hahaha
20140310 02:39:47< Nostromus> hi something off-topic to your ai. Can i set the resolution of wesnoth outside the game?
20140310 02:40:16< Aishiko_laptop> Nostromus, yes you can -r numxnum
20140310 02:40:28< Nostromus> nice thanks
20140310 02:40:44< sachith500> mattsc I've been trying to get ahold of crab_ to run my idea by him
20140310 02:40:46< sachith500> havent had the chance
20140310 02:40:47< sachith500> :)
20140310 02:40:52< Aishiko_laptop> so ./wesnoth -r 800x480 is an example and the smallest supported resolution Nostromus 
20140310 02:41:11< sachith500> there is more to it of course, but that would go deep into the theory of evaluating functions
20140310 02:41:18< Nostromus> perfect, have found a bug and without it wesnoth doesnt start
20140310 02:41:20< sachith500> I'm planning on making a proposal with detailed references :D
20140310 02:41:42< mattsc> sachith500: he comes on about 2 or 3 times a day at the moment, just keep pinging him and he'll get back to you.  Mails to the dev mailing list seems to work too.
20140310 02:41:52< sachith500> hmm all right :D
20140310 02:42:03< sachith500> I'll get a proposal up and let him take a look at it
20140310 02:42:08< sachith500> don't want to waste his time :)
20140310 02:42:25< mattsc> sachith500: yeah, that would be good (details).  What you said so far is too vague to say anything about it.  :)
20140310 02:42:36< sachith500> well
20140310 02:42:38< sachith500> the basic idea is
20140310 02:42:47< sachith500> take the concept of "advancement"
20140310 02:42:54< sachith500> it's present in both chess and wesnoth
20140310 02:43:08< sachith500> a state needs to take into account the "possibility for advancement"
20140310 02:43:22< sachith500> so it needs to be a feature of the evaluating function
20140310 02:43:33< mattsc> indeed
20140310 02:43:49< sachith500> for example
20140310 02:43:54< sachith500> the function you mentioned earlier
20140310 02:44:01< Coffee_irc> not sure if useful input but I would think you should implement this kind of thing with backtracking
20140310 02:44:02< sachith500> had a naive implementation of this
20140310 02:44:26< sachith500> by backtracking do you mean dfs/bfs etc?
20140310 02:44:37< sachith500> well the thing about a good evaluating function is
20140310 02:44:41< Coffee_irc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backtracking
20140310 02:44:44< Nostromus> sachith have you pracical experience with chess evaluations?
20140310 02:44:46< sachith500> it needs to look only a little ahead.
20140310 02:45:04 * mattsc has no idea what backtracking is unless when it refers to finding you way back home out of the woods.
20140310 02:45:10< sachith500> My team won a country-wdie chess tournament at school
20140310 02:45:12< sachith500> :D
20140310 02:45:17< Coffee_irc> in board states like chess/wesnoth backtracking is often the quickest implementation
20140310 02:45:17< sachith500> what do you think ^_^
20140310 02:45:21< sachith500> yeah
20140310 02:46:01< sachith500> generally bfs and dfs use these
20140310 02:46:03< sachith500> specifically
20140310 02:46:04< sachith500> dfs
20140310 02:46:07< Nostromus> a big differnces are in chess you have all information, in wesnoth not
20140310 02:46:08< sachith500> uses backtracking
20140310 02:46:15< sachith500> true
20140310 02:46:20< sachith500> need to account for FoW
20140310 02:46:30< Nostromus> thats a big big differences
20140310 02:46:36< sachith500> I agree
20140310 02:46:40< sachith500> the idea is not to port
20140310 02:46:45< sachith500> the chess algorithms direct
20140310 02:46:47< sachith500> into wesnoth
20140310 02:46:51< Nostromus> i understand
20140310 02:46:55< sachith500> obviously that would never work :D
20140310 02:47:03< Coffee_irc> sachith500: backtracking is just a method for pruning bad branches of possible future states to compute
20140310 02:47:04< sachith500> the idea is to use it as a baseline
20140310 02:47:05< mattsc> Coffee_irc: only read the first paragrpah, but yeah, some of my functions do that (without me even knowing what it is).  :P
20140310 02:47:10< sachith500> oh right
20140310 02:47:14< sachith500> alpha beta pruning
20140310 02:47:43< sachith500> I made a sudoku solver using this
20140310 02:47:56< Coffee_irc> yes, perfect for sodoku and board based games
20140310 02:48:04< sachith500> http://projecteuler.net/problem=96
20140310 02:48:11< sachith500> :D
20140310 02:48:15< mattsc> sachith500: as I said, I really don't know anything about any of this.  I've just been playing trial-and-error with empirical stuff that I made up myself...
20140310 02:48:25< sachith500> exactly mattsc
20140310 02:48:32< sachith500> you've been using some of this stuff already
20140310 02:48:38< sachith500> some of it is kinda intuitive
20140310 02:48:47< sachith500> your input will be very valuable if this gets implemented :D
20140310 02:49:07< sachith500> I have about 4 months experience
20140310 02:49:10< sachith500> playing wesnoth
20140310 02:49:16< sachith500> it doesn't go anywhere near
20140310 02:49:20< sachith500> what it takes to make a good AI
20140310 02:49:27< sachith500> well a really good AI
20140310 02:49:28< sachith500> :P
20140310 02:49:36< mattsc> So yeah, this all sounds reasonable.  My experience is that the devil is in the details, but then, somebody who actually knows what they are doing might have a much easier time with this.
20140310 02:49:58< sachith500> you mean crab?
20140310 02:50:04< sachith500> yes I'll send a mail to the mailing list :D
20140310 02:50:05< mattsc> No, you.  :)
20140310 02:50:13< sachith500> oh :P
20140310 02:50:18< mattsc> But Crab_ would certainly be better than I.
20140310 02:50:25< sachith500> wait erm
20140310 02:50:36< sachith500> I don't quite follow :P
20140310 02:51:39< Aishiko_laptop> sachith500, he's saying you'd have an easier time of them him I think
20140310 02:51:49< sachith500> ah yes of course
20140310 02:51:51< mattsc> sachith500: what I am saying that I have no CS background in general, and absolutely no AI background.  Once people start talking about these kind of things, I am pretty lost and barely understand the words being used.
20140310 02:51:59< sachith500> oh sorry :)
20140310 02:52:05< sachith500> I didn't mean to confuse you
20140310 02:52:14< sachith500> I was directing most of the stuff at coffee_irc
20140310 02:52:20< sachith500> what i meant is
20140310 02:52:20< mattsc> sachith500: no, that's not what I am saying.  :)
20140310 02:52:26< sachith500> I can handle most of the cs stuff
20140310 02:52:31< Coffee_irc> mattsc: that can't be true
20140310 02:52:31< Aishiko_laptop> mattsc, I know what you mean, when my roomie goes of on harry potter, yes I understand the words but.... I don't get where she's going or coming from
20140310 02:52:35< mattsc> I'm just saying that I am likely not the right person to judge whether this might go anywhere ot not.
20140310 02:52:37< sachith500> I would count on your wesnoth experience
20140310 02:52:42< sachith500> of course
20140310 02:52:44< sachith500> I understand that
20140310 02:52:49< sachith500> :)
20140310 02:53:03< mattsc> Coffee_irc: I had one 1-credit Fortran course.  That's my entire formal CS education.
20140310 02:53:10< sachith500> :D
20140310 02:53:20< sachith500> well you learn more from fiddling
20140310 02:53:22< sachith500> with stuff
20140310 02:53:26< sachith500> than by any course
20140310 02:53:31< sachith500> I taught myself C++ :P
20140310 02:53:37< sachith500> a friend taught my bubble sort
20140310 02:53:40< sachith500> I took it from there
20140310 02:53:49< sachith500> hehe
20140310 02:53:52< sachith500> right
20140310 02:53:55< sachith500> back to them proposals
20140310 02:54:20< sachith500> thanks for your help everyone mattsc, coffee_irc, Nostromus :D
20140310 02:54:28< sachith500> and Aishiko_laptop of course ;)
20140310 02:54:40< mattsc> sachith500: yes, put your proposal together and send out the link.  I'll have a look at it, but you'll likely get more useful feedback from Crab.
20140310 02:54:45< Aishiko_laptop> your welcome sachith500 not that I do much
20140310 02:54:47< mattsc> ... and maybe Coffee_irc 
20140310 02:55:03< sachith500> cool
20140310 02:55:03< Coffee_irc> lol, I'm just here to make the numbers kind of thing :P
20140310 02:55:15< sachith500> coffee_irc have you worked with the wesnoth ai?
20140310 02:55:22< Coffee_irc> eh, no :P
20140310 02:55:24< mattsc> sachith500: and just to confirm what Aishiko_laptop said: I am going to be on the road for the next 11 days, and partially entirely out of contact during that period.
20140310 02:55:25< sachith500> ah ok :D
20140310 02:55:39< sachith500> oh right :d
20140310 02:55:40< sachith500> :D
20140310 02:55:52< sachith500> I really appreciate the time you take to discuss this with me :D
20140310 02:55:55< Coffee_irc> if I one day get a good paying job that leaves a lot of free time, maybe I'd like to take up working on it though
20140310 02:56:14< Coffee_irc> as it is I'm mainly dealing with animation code
20140310 02:56:15< sachith500> hehe
20140310 02:56:21< sachith500> oh cool
20140310 02:56:27< mattsc> I'll try to keep up with the logs, but might have limited time for that too.  Make sure you use my nick (or send me a PM) if you want anything from me specifically.
20140310 02:56:36< sachith500> will do
20140310 02:56:45< sachith500> do you have a bouncer set up>
20140310 02:56:50< sachith500> you showed up pretty fast
20140310 02:57:09< sachith500> I will make sure to use it only if essential :D
20140310 02:57:09< mattsc> Nope, just good (or bad?) luck  :)
20140310 02:57:12< sachith500> haha
20140310 02:57:31< sachith500> thanks a lot, again!
20140310 02:57:37< mattsc> No worries, this is fun.  I just don't want to give you the impression that I actually know what I am talking about.  ;)
20140310 02:57:45< Aishiko_laptop> mattsc, if you have a moment, I've almost got the unit recall costs working to get a unit (then I'll work on the undo part) but I'm stuck.
20140310 02:58:25< Aishiko_laptop> I'm hoping talking to you might shake something loose and get that aha moment, you're good at that =) or letting us know we might be going the wrong way with it
20140310 02:58:49< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: okay - but my comment about not knowing anything applies to C++ as well.
20140310 02:59:08< Aishiko_laptop> this more a logic issue then a code issue.
20140310 02:59:21< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: type away, I'll be back in a few minutes ...
20140310 02:59:29< Aishiko_laptop> thank you mattsc 
20140310 03:01:16< Aishiko_laptop> basically the dialog goes out and connects to a function to do the drawing of the unit options, then when you click on one it returns an index number (it is a whole real number) to the dialog and then it goes through the steps of check to make sure the money is there.
20140310 03:02:44< Aishiko_laptop> what I'm trying to do is figure out what that number is and how I can access the rest of the object and get that recall cost out of the unit's variables.  or I have to wonder if I'm going about this the wrong way.  I feel that that returned number is the key in someway
20140310 03:02:59-!- lc [~yaaic@177.98.216.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20140310 03:04:46< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: do you need to put a get_recall_cost() function into unit_type.cpp (or hpp)?
20140310 03:05:30< mattsc> Or is that not what you are asking?
20140310 03:06:01< Aishiko_laptop> mattsc, there already is, and its working as the cost is being displayed appropriately, I need to later get that number again for the specific unit for the deduction from the current gold
20140310 03:06:20< Aishiko_laptop> right now it doesn't matter what I do, it just takes the default 20 out
20140310 03:07:40-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@x2f3fe4d.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 03:07:43< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: let me check something really quickly
20140310 03:07:47< Aishiko_laptop> sure
20140310 03:09:24< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: so if I go into a game, type :inspect, and look at any unit, its cost (as an example) is displayed as a key (parameter, whatever) of that unit, even though that's a property of the unit type.
20140310 03:09:52< mattsc> So somehow the unit "inherits" (no idea if this is technically the correct term) the cost from the unit type.
20140310 03:10:08< mattsc> Can't you do the same thing for the recall cost?
20140310 03:10:56-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@x2f3fe4d.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Changing host]
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20140310 03:11:09< Aishiko_laptop> mattsc, I think I already did that, I have recall_cost in both and used the same syntax and everything but I will double check that
20140310 03:11:13< mattsc> ... but I am getting the impression that I still don't understand the problem.
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20140310 03:14:13< Aishiko_laptop> I basically get back a number that relates to the unit but I am unable to get the recall_cost from it... I might be wrong and it is a code problem
20140310 03:14:53< mattsc> But previously you are able to access the number to display it in the dialog, right?
20140310 03:15:42< mattsc> Can't you do it in the same way?  (that's meant as a real question, since I really don't know how any of this works internally)
20140310 03:16:22-!- happygrue [~happygrue@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20140310 03:16:29< Aishiko_laptop> I should be able to and your right
20140310 03:17:04< shadowm> Balancing cave exploration scenarios is hard.
20140310 03:17:18< mattsc> shadowm: balancing scenarios is hard
20140310 03:17:50< Coffee_irc> shadowm: (solemn voice) would be easier if we had grues
20140310 03:18:48< Aishiko_laptop> mattsc, I think my basic issue is I'm given a number and I'm not sure how to make that number relate to a particular unit
20140310 03:19:10< mattsc> shadowm: but cave scenarios often have fewer units and yes, I think those are inherently more difficult to balance because you cannot rely on the statistics to average out.
20140310 03:19:32< Coffee_irc> konrad travels too far in the cave and is immediately eaten by a grue -- balanced
20140310 03:19:33< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: ah, I see.  You need to get the unit back from the index?
20140310 03:20:34< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: But isn't that done in order to display it in the dialog already - after all, it's name, HP/XP etc. are all displayed.
20140310 03:21:06-!- sachith500|2 [~kvirc@112.134.151.88] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 03:21:11< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: I need to be afk again for 10-15min.  Will be back after that.
20140310 03:21:20< Aishiko_laptop> mattsc, yes but at that point it is going through all of them not just 1 in particular and I'd hate to have to run through them all again to find that number
20140310 03:21:23< _8680_> Coffee_irc, do you think that would make it a happy grue?
20140310 03:21:26-!- justinzane [~justinzan@tiny.justinzane.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 03:21:26 * _8680_ disappears.
20140310 03:21:33< Aishiko_laptop> alright thank you for being a sounding board mattsc 
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20140310 03:52:01< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: sorry, took a little longer.
20140310 03:52:24< mattsc> (and in ~10 min I'll have to take another short break from the keyboard)
20140310 03:52:43< mattsc> Is the checking for the recall cost done in actions/create.cpp?
20140310 03:54:40-!- sachith500 [~kvirc@112.135.152.38] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 03:56:44< Aishiko_laptop> mattsc, no but checking it can be done is done there, I'm going the hax route at this time and adding a function to that namespace to take the unit in and return the recall cost that way
20140310 03:58:16< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: so, isn't 'recall' in l.998 in create.cpp, and this recall.recal_cost(0 (or recall->get_recall_cost(), or however it is implemented) would be the recall cost?
20140310 03:58:38< mattsc> *isn't 'recall' in l.998 in create.cpp the unit to be recalled
20140310 03:59:04< mattsc> Rats, how many typos did I make in that one sentence ...  :P
20140310 03:59:11< mattsc> Let's try again:
20140310 03:59:50< mattsc> isn't 'recall' in l.998 in create.cpp the unit to be recalled, and thus recall.recal_cost() [or recall->get_recall_cost(), or however it is implemented] would be the recall cost?
20140310 04:01:38< Aishiko_laptop> sort of but that function only returns a true or false, like this unit exists go ahead and recall it otherwise it says can't find it
20140310 04:02:25< Aishiko_laptop> I need to get the cost before that function is called because once it's called its passed the "you have enough gold to recall this unit" check
20140310 04:05:00< Aishiko_laptop> I'm sorry that function actually places it and returns a success or failure of that action.
20140310 04:06:15< mattsc> So can you point me to where you do need to access it?  (not that I think I'll be able to help if you can't figure it out, but jsut in case)
20140310 04:07:44< Aishiko_laptop> its at line 711~ in menu_events.cpp in the src/gui/dialogs directory
20140310 04:08:57< Aishiko_laptop> the line that reads int wb_gold = resources::whiteboard->get_spent_gold_for(side_num); is the line where I'm at (my numbers are likely different than yours for the simple fact I've modified stuff and nto commited it the mainline yet
20140310 04:15:44< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: okay, so 'res' is the unit index.
20140310 04:15:56< Aishiko_laptop> yes
20140310 04:16:01< mattsc> and further down you can see that 'recall_list_team[res]->id()' is the unit id
20140310 04:16:27< Aishiko_laptop> right and when I try to store that in a string (since it is a string) I get errors
20140310 04:16:45< mattsc> hmm
20140310 04:17:02< mattsc> I was going to say that: doesn't that mean the 'recall_list_team[res]' is the unit?
20140310 04:18:04< Aishiko_laptop> I thought that would work too but alas no,  current_unit.recall_cost=recall_list_team[res]->recall_cost();  fails
20140310 04:19:24< Aishiko_laptop> and doing  current_unit.recall_cost=recall_list_team[(recall_list_team[res]->id())]->recall_cost(); just explodes since that would return the id needed to get the actual recall cost of the unit
20140310 04:20:11< Aishiko_laptop> but now that I think about it a function to get this cost would reduce redundant code when going to implement the whiteboard and undo cost modifications
20140310 04:20:28< Aishiko_laptop> it would not do to pay 10 gold and undo ti and get 20 back
20140310 04:21:18-!- irker221 [~irker@ai0867.net] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout]
20140310 04:22:28< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: I just put this line into the code:
20140310 04:22:32< mattsc> 	std::cout << "xxxxxx " << recall_list_team[res]->id() << " xxxxxx\n";
20140310 04:22:51< mattsc> ... and it displays the id of the unit being recalled just fine.
20140310 04:24:18< mattsc> But anyways, I don't think I am the right person to talk about how to implement it ...  I feel like I am wasting your time more than anything.
20140310 04:24:25< Aishiko_laptop> I'm just having issues storing it
20140310 04:25:06< Aishiko_laptop> since I can't enbed that in another recall_list_team[] call
20140310 04:25:11-!- vorobeez [~quassel@85.142.148.12] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 04:25:21< Aishiko_laptop> I sometimes have issues with strings
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20140310 04:27:55< Aishiko_laptop> I did make a nice program to run through every character of a string and count them and return a value back, but I'm just having issues to night
20140310 04:30:06< shadowm> Hm.
20140310 04:30:14< sachith500> hmmm
20140310 04:30:42< Aishiko_laptop> I did a std::string unit_id= recall_list_team[res]->id();  line but got a " error: initializer fails to determine size of ‘unit_id’" so I think that doing a seperate function is the only way to go in this case, unless all unit IDs have a fixed length
20140310 04:31:07< shadowm> What's the type of recall_list_team?
20140310 04:31:15< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: I'm not sure why you are trying to go through the id string at all.
20140310 04:31:57< mattsc> shadowm: it's a unit vector
20140310 04:32:15< shadowm> And what's the type of res?
20140310 04:32:30< mattsc> int
20140310 04:32:33< Aishiko_laptop> mattsc, I'll try doing this  std::cout << "xxxxxx " << recall_list_team[res]->recall_cost() << " xxxxxx\n"; and see that works and then see if it works
20140310 04:32:55< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: yes, that's what I'd say you should use.
20140310 04:33:15 * shadowm looks.
20140310 04:33:20< mattsc> I just tried it with recall_list_team[res]->cost() (since I don't have recall_cost() available) and that works just fine.
20140310 04:33:39< Aishiko_laptop> but then again it didn't have the desired effect before but it it returns the correct value then the error is somewhere else
20140310 04:33:49< shadowm> Could we perhaps see the actual patch?
20140310 04:35:09< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: you're in much better hand now and I'll have to sign off shortly anyway, so ... good luck!
20140310 04:35:42< mattsc> *hands    (I neither can type nor read tonight!)
20140310 04:35:46< shadowm> Eh?
20140310 04:36:19< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, so far no patch since its not working!  but mattsc 's idea of checking to see if the right value is being returned is a great idea
20140310 04:36:27< mattsc> shadowm: you actually know something about coding, in spite of all your claims
20140310 04:36:38< mattsc> ... or at least you know more than I do.
20140310 04:36:56< Aishiko_laptop> mattsc, your no slouch yourself!
20140310 04:37:07< shadowm> Okay, but even if it's not working, it's a patch that can be obtained with git diff (e.g. `git diff > foobar.patch` to save it to foobar.patch) for others to see.
20140310 04:39:39< Aishiko_laptop> OK let me do that (I'm no git expert)
20140310 04:40:47< shadowm> That just shows a diff of the current state of your checkout compared to the branch's HEAD.
20140310 04:41:47< shadowm> Inspecting diffs before committing should be standard practice. It helps with spotting mistakes or unintentional changes.
20140310 04:42:51< shadowm> For example, I occasionally end up adding redundant includes because my IDE is a bit silly and overbearing.
20140310 04:43:07< sachith500> ;)
20140310 04:43:10< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: okay, I'm off.  Sorry I wasn't more help, I'm sure you'll figure it out.
20140310 04:43:52< Aishiko_laptop> http://pastebin.com/HBqyng56
20140310 04:43:58< Aishiko_laptop> thank you mattsc 
20140310 04:44:22< sachith500> Aishiko_laptop: just a friendly reminder, you can work on the code well past the proposal deadline, but once the deadline is reached, you can't do anything about your proposal any more ;)
20140310 04:44:39-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: Ciao]
20140310 04:44:58< shadowm> We tend to keep opening braces on the same line as the opening statement, for control blocks (if, do/while, for, and artificial constructs resembling such like BOOST_FOREACH).
20140310 04:45:15< shadowm> </pedant>
20140310 04:45:23< sachith500> :D
20140310 04:45:38< Aishiko_laptop> well that worked perfectly in getting the cost, it has to be something I'm missing
20140310 04:46:05< shadowm> Also whitespace around assignment operators.
20140310 04:46:14< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: Anyway, what was the problem again? :)
20140310 04:47:12< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, I'm going to clean up the statements once I get them to work,  passing the right cost to the checking that enough gold is there and then removing the right amount, however, turns out the issue is elsewhere.
20140310 04:52:06< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, mattsc was right the issue is inside create, I need to modify a parameter being sent in that function and then I'll get the desired result (I hope)
20140310 04:56:05< shadowm> Okay, so the issue is that menu_events.cpp isn't where the gold is handled?
20140310 04:56:41< Aishiko_laptop> no that just performs a check to make sure you have the gold to go further
20140310 04:56:43< shadowm> I mean the actual gold deduction, not the check.
20140310 04:57:51< shadowm> Hm.
20140310 04:58:19< shadowm> Looks like a lot of things need to know about the recall cost for a unit.
20140310 04:58:45< Aishiko_laptop> that happens in place recruit, so I need to do a check in recall_unit,  so that it passes the right amount to place_recruit where the actual gold is taken out of the coffers
20140310 04:59:37< fabi> shadowm: hello
20140310 05:00:48< shadowm> fabi: I believe when you started Experimental Corner you asked me specifically to not allow Developers and Forum Moderators to moderate there or I'm misremembering things as usual?
20140310 05:00:52< Aishiko_laptop> as you can see shadowm I tend to do a lot of commenting out things until I figure it out
20140310 05:01:26< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: Oh, I'm used to that, it's par for the course.
20140310 05:02:29< shadowm> It's not a problem as long as the final product (that is, the diff that goes public) isn't littered with that kind of thing.
20140310 05:02:57< fabi> shadowm: I don't see a reason to restrict the moderating of the experimental corner to a certain group of developers. I doubt that my opinion changed over time. Maybe yogihh asked you about the restriction.
20140310 05:03:40< shadowm> Hm.
20140310 05:04:51< shadowm> Argh, I keep trying to run 'wesnoth' instead of 'wesnoth-1.12'. :(
20140310 05:05:25< shadowm> fabi: Oh yeah, I get these two when running the editor, both master and 1.12: http://pastebin.com/fg1277sA
20140310 05:06:02< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, lol I do that too and it runs the 1.10 installed by the distro (have to say I prefer the Konrad images from that version to the current one)
20140310 05:06:29< shadowm> Meh.
20140310 05:06:38< fabi> noted
20140310 05:12:39< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, woot I got to deduct the right amount, but now I need to fix the undo so that it uses the right amount =) otherwise I introduce a bug where you can set the recall cost to a value (like 10) and undo and make gold
20140310 05:13:09< shadowm> Working on these maps... I realize that ever since I first played UtBS I've never been able to find another campaign with the same atmosphere of discovery and mystery (esp for the underground scenarios).
20140310 05:14:10< shadowm> Well, more like "come across". I've not done a particularly good effort at the 'finding' part.
20140310 05:14:59< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: It seems you'll need to change both the interface and implementation of the undo_list::recall_action class for that.
20140310 05:16:02< shadowm> Hm, you know, I never thought that could possibly be so complicated to implement.
20140310 05:16:55< shadowm> It seems like the involved components could use some refactoring of the recall gold logic so there aren't a thousand classes all reinventing the wheel.
20140310 05:22:17< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, the easy coding page is a lie.......  this is not easy, too many moving parts to be easy
20140310 05:23:41< shadowm> It's easy to underestimate Wesnoth's implementation complexity.
20140310 05:24:08< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, I would agree but ohh that would not be doable by me before the deadline for proposals and code fixes
20140310 05:24:18< Aishiko_laptop> not with my current course load
20140310 05:24:47< shadowm> You couldn't find something easier to do? :p
20140310 05:25:28 * Aishiko_laptop was an silly and believed the easy coding page only had easy coding projects that could be done in a day by someone new to the code base.....
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20140310 05:26:13< fabi> Aishiko_laptop: The recall cost thing is easy.
20140310 05:27:06< Aishiko_laptop> fabi, I must be making it harder then it needs to be
20140310 05:27:44< fabi> Aishiko_laptop: I once proposed a different way how recall works in wesnoth (of course it was rejected) and prototyped adjustable recall costs (on a unit level).
20140310 05:28:15< fabi> Aishiko_laptop: It wasn't that difficult compared to most other stuff. Sadly I never came around to commit it.
20140310 05:28:24< Aishiko_laptop> ohh I'm trying to work within the current constructs without changing everything
20140310 05:30:02< fabi> Iirc, you have several points of origin. There is a global recall cost defined in the game_config. This one can be overwritten in the side (the team class, hell our names). And now you want to add another level to it.
20140310 05:30:04< Aishiko_laptop> fabi, basically what I'm doing at this point is making it totally optional and defaults to -1, if that value is seen it uses the team recall cost instead
20140310 05:30:40< Aishiko_laptop> fabi, I just underestimated all the places it would show up!
20140310 05:31:48< fabi> What does your feature request say about the ranking?
20140310 05:32:10< Aishiko_laptop> ranking?
20140310 05:32:16< fabi> If you have both, a side specific recall cost and a unit specific one, which counts more?
20140310 05:32:50< Aishiko_laptop> sorry fabi I'm abit tired, ohh if the unit is set it's taken instead of the side specific, if not set the side wins
20140310 05:33:11< Aishiko_laptop> that way its backwards compatible (I think)
20140310 05:33:34< fabi> Remember, the game concept "Side" is implemented in "team.cpp". While the game concept "team" is not implemented in "side.cpp". 
20140310 05:34:20< Aishiko_laptop> right and most often it is current_team or side when I'm in the thick of things
20140310 05:35:00< fabi> :-)
20140310 05:35:50< fabi> Maybe we should warn the gsoc students about the possibility to to slip into madness when working on Wesnoth. 
20140310 05:36:17< Aishiko_laptop> lol or that sometimes what we're working on can break in places we never considered before
20140310 05:37:26< fabi> Aishiko_laptop: Yeah, this feature is called: Lack of modularization.
20140310 05:38:37< shadowm> It's more like inconsistent modularization combined with lack of documentation and unit tests.
20140310 05:38:51< Aishiko_laptop> at this point I would LOVE to go in and modularize the whole thing, but I don't think thats in the time frame
20140310 05:39:06< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, some are great with comments others not so much
20140310 05:39:45< fabi> Aishiko_laptop: Refactoring all the side and team mess should be doable.
20140310 05:40:29< shadowm> Refactoring is always doable as long as you have someone who already knows how the code is supposed to work.
20140310 05:40:52< Aishiko_laptop> fabi, its getting easier I as I learn more and follow this down the rabbit hole........ what was Carroll taking in the first place, that book reads like a drug induced trip
20140310 05:41:24< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, refactoring all of it with one student in 3 months?!?!?!?
20140310 05:42:32< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: Well, no, that's not what I meant.
20140310 05:42:41< shadowm> That said, it's been done several times.
20140310 05:43:38< shadowm> IIRC Crab_'s GSoC project was a complete refactoring of the AI engine. ilor's was a complete rewrite of the map editor (which involved some refactoring of other related code IIRC).
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20140310 05:44:08< shadowm> We've had SP/MP logic-related refactoring projects for two consecutive years as well.
20140310 05:45:05< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, I'm thinking I'll submit a proposal to refactor/clean up the unit and side code and try and get rid of some redundant code and make it flow better
20140310 05:45:17< shadowm> Of course the process goes much more smoothly when you have an expert to guide you, but sometimes all you can do is study what there is and try your best.
20140310 05:45:47< shadowm> Which is pretty much what I did with the add-ons management code.
20140310 05:46:28< shadowm> I single-handedly introduced a dozen regressions in the process, I guess? But it all got sorted out after a few releases.
20140310 05:48:20< shadowm> That was a personal project of mine, though, which means I didn't enjoy the assistance of a mentor whom I could pester with all my question, save perhaps for the dev who wrote one of the add-on manager's dependencies, the GUI2 network transmission dialog.
20140310 05:48:53< shadowm> It's also still not finished. :(
20140310 05:48:55-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 05:49:10< shadowm> I forgot the point I was trying to make.
20140310 05:50:32< shadowm> That's probably an awful example, though.
20140310 05:50:49< shadowm> In reality it's the third time I've refactored that code.
20140310 05:51:17< Aishiko_laptop> basically your saying if you could do it I could do it, mentor or no mentor?
20140310 05:51:36< shadowm> The first time I moved it out of game.cpp, where it was like two thousand lines of crap stuffed somewhere above main().
20140310 05:52:33< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: Uh, maybe what I'm trying to say is that it can be done with enough dedication and effort!
20140310 05:56:15 * shadowm goes back to what he was doing before this becomes another accidentally demotivational speech.
20140310 05:57:12< Aishiko_laptop> thank you shadowm 
20140310 05:57:33< Aishiko_laptop> I have a tendancy to make things harder then they need to be
20140310 05:58:38< vorobeez> hello guys. I have question. In code i saw this is variable: enemy_dstsrc/srcdst of move_map type. This is a container whis contains key(map_location) of location of some unit and many(or one) map_locations. What is this locations?  known locations of enemy units?
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20140310 06:12:21< Aishiko_laptop> fabi quick question before you go if you have the time if I have the pointer to the team and the location of the unit can I access the unit's data?   basically I'm trying do the undo part of the code without having to change the function declaration
20140310 06:13:27< fabi> Aishiko_laptop: If you know the location of the unit the unit_map is what you need.
20140310 06:14:31< Aishiko_laptop> it is?
20140310 06:14:57< fabi> yes
20140310 06:18:32< Aishiko_laptop> thank you for letting me know
20140310 06:19:32< fabi> Aishiko_laptop: The unit_map is some sort of global you can access through the resources.hpp.
20140310 06:19:45< shadowm> vorobeez: Is this in the AI code?
20140310 06:20:11< vorobeez> shadown: yes, in the AI code
20140310 06:21:46< shadowm> Oh, hm. Okay, no idea in that case, best ask mattsc or Crab_.
20140310 06:21:56< shadowm> vorobeez: It's shadowm with an 'm' as in 'moo', btw. With most IRC clients you should be able to just type the first few letters and press tab once or twice to tab-complete the nickname.
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20140310 06:23:56< vorobeez> shadowm: sorry. 
20140310 06:23:56< vorobeez> Crab_ usually silent. I do not know why
20140310 06:24:31< shadowm> Have you tried poking him directly when he's around?
20140310 06:25:12< Aishiko_laptop> is it now?  so I should be able to take the map location then access the unit at that map location, from what your saying
20140310 06:25:51< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: resources::units, yes, when it's not NULL, anyway.
20140310 06:25:55< vorobeez> yes, yesterday. But but he remained silent
20140310 06:27:51< Aishiko_laptop> fabi, NULL as in no unit at that location, like we'd in purpose try that =P
20140310 06:28:58< shadowm> I mean that resources::units may be NULL in situations where no unit map actually exists (i.e. not in-game), also I'm not fabi.
20140310 06:29:49< Aishiko_laptop> sorry shadowm, I might need a nap if I keep doing that!
20140310 06:37:15-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 06:37:44< shadowm> Crab_: Around?
20140310 06:37:53< Crab_> shadowm: yes
20140310 06:38:05< shadowm> Crab_: vorobeez was just asking a question about the AI code a few minutes ago.
20140310 06:38:31< shadowm> Er, for certain values of "few". 40 minutes ago.
20140310 06:38:47< Crab_> shadowm: thanks, I'll take a look
20140310 06:39:37< Crab_> vorobeez: when asking questions, it's better to include the nicknames of the people you want to answer in the question, so they'll be highlighted and it'll be easier to grep for those questions in the logs
20140310 06:40:12< vorobeez> Crab_: hi, and i yestarday send to you sketch of my plan for project. 20140309 18:22:14
20140310 06:42:01< vorobeez> Crab_: sorry about this. And i have one more question. What means 'avoid_enemy' for scout? 
20140310 06:42:18< Crab_> vorobeez: hello. I'll take a look. now, about your question:  movement map is a map of 'possible starting point for a move -> possible end point for a move. srcdst contains own moves, enemy_srcdst contains potential enemy moves. dstsrc and enemy_dstrsrc are reversed.
20140310 06:42:39< Crab_> after AI moves units, srcdst and dstsrc maps change, after each move.
20140310 06:42:51< Crab_> (they're recalculated on first access after the change)
20140310 06:43:08< Crab_> so, src is no empty, dst is empty hex
20140310 06:44:10< Crab_> vorobeez: about questions from yesterday:  'scout' and 'usage' have nothing to do with pathfinding, they're related to old recruitment routines.
20140310 06:44:51< Crab_> vorobeez: about [avoid] - it's a parameter to ai, see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/AIWML, [avoid]
20140310 06:45:51< Aishiko_laptop> fabi, your right, the unit costs isn't as hard when you have an understanding of what your looking for and where
20140310 06:46:23< Crab_> vorobeez: wesnoth.find_path is not present. if you meant wesnoth.path_find, it's a lua function, see src/scripting/lua.cpp, look for ' Put some callback functions in the scripting environment.'
20140310 06:46:35< vorobeez> Crab_: So in https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/ai/testing/ca_testing_move_to_targets.cpp#L52 for scouts we increse cost of movement (res *= 1.0 + enemy_dstsrc_.count(loc);) Why we do this? 
20140310 06:46:38< Crab_> vorobeez: that contains a mapping between C++ functions and lua names.
20140310 06:46:59< vorobeez> Crab_: yes, about mapping i understand this yet. Thank you.
20140310 06:47:36< Crab_> vorobeez: for 'scouts we increase cost of movement' is an old attempt to make scouts prefer to not use hexes which are reachable by the enemy.
20140310 06:47:56< Crab_> vorobeez: since scouts are usually fast and not powerful units suited for grabbing villages and not for combat.
20140310 06:48:25< Crab_> enemy_dstsrc.count(loc) === number of enemies that can move on 'loc' on their next turn.
20140310 06:49:14< Aishiko_laptop> But I didn't realize at first what sort of scope this was, its given me a new appreciation for the spritesheet project, similar scope (minor change) but touching a lot of areas of the code
20140310 06:52:06< vorobeez> Crab_: so what means that i take in account avoided hexes? I increce cost of movent(do unreachable) for the type of location that is specified in [avoid]?
20140310 06:53:46< Crab_> vorobeez: there's AI, and there's the game engine. when AI code is in C++, it gets it's moves via srcdst object, which has 'avoided' hexes removed from it.
20140310 06:54:23< Crab_> vorobeez: however, when someone writes lua code, and calls wesnoth.path_find, that function knows nothing about the AI, and it just returns it's answer without removing hexes avoided by that AI
20140310 06:54:50< Crab_> that's not good - in most cases, lua AI code should behave in the same way as C++ ai code.
20140310 06:55:54< Crab_> so, we want to have a new   ai.path_find function (in lua ai table, see src/ai/lua , not in wesnoth lua table) which would automatically 'discard' the avoided locations from the 'destinations' in the movement map it returns.
20140310 06:56:02< Aishiko_laptop> Crab_, it sounds to me like the wesnoth.path_find it needs to not return the avoided hexes or be run through a function that takes the lua defined hexes to avoid
20140310 06:56:37< Crab_> Aishiko_laptop: even better, if AI runs the function, it should take the defined hexes from 'context'
20140310 06:57:11< Crab_> Aishiko_laptop: e.g. "if I'm a lua ai code for side 4, let's take [avoid] of side 4 into account by default when calling ai.find_path ( wesnoth.find_path is not changed)""
20140310 06:57:38< Crab_> Aishiko_laptop: that's possible to do because lua ai has access to it's own special table, which kind of knows what side it is and can pass this info to C++ code.
20140310 06:57:39< Aishiko_laptop> Crab_, so the lua should pass the avoided hexes to the AI and then from there to the pathfind function
20140310 06:58:06< Crab_> Aishiko_laptop: no, that's slow, why pass a potentially huge list from C++ to lua just for lua to pass it back to C++ ?
20140310 06:58:23< Crab_> Aishiko_laptop: and also that requires the AI author not to forget to do it, which is not fun.
20140310 06:59:42< Aishiko_laptop> Crab_, no no just lua avoid to the AI or AI.pathfind and it returns only the available paths not the avoided ones (see that is why I don't like mailing lists and forums I sometimes have this issue)
20140310 07:00:48< Crab_> Aishiko_laptop: yes, 'ai.path_find and it returns only the available paths and not the avoided ones' is good
20140310 07:01:07< Aishiko_laptop> so the list gets passed from the lua to the C++ code and then it does the path finding, and takes those avoid hexes into account
20140310 07:01:26< Crab_> Aishiko_laptop: no need for the list to ever hit lua.
20140310 07:01:28< Aishiko_laptop> there is no reason to pass the avoided hexes back to the lua at all in that case
20140310 07:01:54< Crab_> Aishiko_laptop: see https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/ai/lua/core.cpp  
20140310 07:02:05< Aishiko_laptop> I thought some of these avoided hexes are defined in the lua?  or did I miss understand?
20140310 07:02:17< vorobeez> Crab_: so i can write function which will remove from move_map all avoided hexes? Does it have sence?
20140310 07:02:43< Crab_> Aishiko_laptop:  usually, avoid is defined as a terrain filter in C++
20140310 07:02:59< Crab_> Aishiko_laptop: it can be transformed to lua list of locations, right.
20140310 07:03:12< Crab_> vorobeez: yes. all avoided destinations. src is ok
20140310 07:03:45< Aishiko_laptop> can a list be lua defined and transferred in?  assuming someone needed/wanted to do that?
20140310 07:04:13< vorobeez> Crab_: now i shoud understand how remove it) 
20140310 07:04:41< Aishiko_laptop> yes, finally I got all the parts to add and undo, but I have not touched the statistics or whiteboard code yet
20140310 07:06:02< Crab_> Aishiko_laptop: in theory, yes. but it'll be indirectly. ([avoid] is in aspect, so someone will replace [avoid] with lua code.
20140310 07:06:14< Crab_> Aishiko_laptop: I don't remember if this is implemented for terrain_filter aspects, sorry.
20140310 07:06:26< Crab_> Aishiko_laptop: but if it's not, it's easy to implement.
20140310 07:06:37< Crab_> Aishiko_laptop: but pathfinding code is C++ only, so in the end it has to get to C++
20140310 07:07:09< iceiceice> fabi: can i ask you some quick questions about the unit test suite we have?
20140310 07:07:47< Aishiko_laptop> I figured as much, but I was just wondering, as learning about that could help me in other areas/types of code =)
20140310 07:08:02< iceiceice> i saw a few days ago that they got enabled, but i didn't try to use it myself until recently
20140310 07:08:11< iceiceice> i saw also that you disabled some of the SDL and unit_map tests
20140310 07:08:19< iceiceice> did you find that all the other tests work?
20140310 07:08:34< iceiceice> i find on my machine that most of gui2 and also the mp_create_dialog tests throw tons of errors
20140310 07:08:57< iceiceice> i'm trying to figure out if that is just my issue?
20140310 07:09:17< iceiceice> i am guessing that if they didnt work for you you would have disabled them as well
20140310 07:11:03< Aishiko_laptop> fabi, when your done with iceiceice 's question(s), I was wondering if submitting what I have without the statistics and whiteboard being modified to handle it was well is OK, I recall hearing that the statistics was turned off though
20140310 07:13:34< shadowm> https://gist.github.com/shikadilord/7395078 -- "Add plain-text file recording support to conversations in the lobby and gui2/tchat_log (?)"
20140310 07:13:47< shadowm> iceiceice: You have no idea how much I regret postponing that right now. :p
20140310 07:14:18< iceiceice> oh you mean re: sylph?
20140310 07:14:55< shadowm> Huh?
20140310 07:14:59< iceiceice> mybe i'm confused
20140310 07:15:01< shadowm> I don't know what you are talking about.
20140310 07:15:15< iceiceice> oh right
20140310 07:15:45< iceiceice> hmm.. dont we record the lobby chat anyways?
20140310 07:15:51< iceiceice> its just pms that aren't logged it hoguht
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20140310 07:17:14< vorobeez> Crab_: so i must write C++ function that parse move_map and remove all avoided hexes. How i can get information about avoided hexes and step in what I need to change move_map? 
20140310 07:27:11-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.12 branch created | string+feature freeze active on 1.12 | 221 bugs, 352 feature requests, 27 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Alternate logs: http://wesnoth.debian.net | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20140310 07:31:59< Aishiko_laptop> fabi, nvm I think I got it working
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20140310 07:47:32< Aishiko_laptop> the only think I'm not sure how to do at the moment is modify the -20 on each recalled unit so that it shows the correct amount in the whiteboard, however the actual numbers appear to be working right
20140310 07:48:33< Aishiko_laptop> little goals =)
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20140310 07:57:54< Aishiko_laptop> boucman_work, thank you for your advice as I worked on getting the custom_recalls.  I got it 90% done, only things left are updating the statistics functions and getting the display to put the right recall cost on the unit when in whiteboard mode, thats it (unless I broke something else out there and don't know it yet
20140310 07:58:30< boucman_work> Aishiko_laptop: you're welcome, but I didn't' help that much :P
20140310 07:59:00< Aishiko_laptop> boucman_work, but being steered in the right direction can save hours of frustration =)
20140310 07:59:25< boucman_work> I don't remember even doing that :P
20140310 07:59:56< Aishiko_laptop> I could have sworn you said that I should talk to someone that knows and works on that code before I begin =)
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20140310 08:01:24< boucman_work> yes, I did say that, but that's not helping that much :P
20140310 08:02:31< Aishiko_laptop> seeing as I thought you were the person that knew what could be done there and you didn't (silly outdated webpage!!) it was helpful.
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20140310 08:13:27< fabi> iceiceice: hi
20140310 08:13:50< shadowm> iceiceice: And did anything ever come out of the iceiceiceN situation?
20140310 08:14:20< iceiceice> no i pm'd it a week ago and got no response
20140310 08:14:23< iceiceice> still in outbox
20140310 08:14:31< iceiceice> (shadowm: ^)
20140310 08:14:36< iceiceice> fabi: hi
20140310 08:14:54< shadowm> iceiceice: iceiceice3 was it?
20140310 08:14:58< iceiceice> yes
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20140310 08:16:01< fabi> iceiceice: I disabled those not running. Not those resulting in a failed test. The difference is that the former leads to a premature termination of the test suite while the later just is a test that does fail because of a wrong test result.
20140310 08:16:02< shadowm> iceiceice: Deleted.
20140310 08:16:07< iceiceice> thanks
20140310 08:16:21< iceiceice> fabi: i see
20140310 08:16:53< iceiceice> so i actually started trying to debug the ones that are failing...
20140310 08:17:07< iceiceice> it looks like they perhaps just haven't been maintained i guess
20140310 08:17:21< iceiceice> the mp_create one seems like it might work except that the test isn't actually loading default_Era
20140310 08:17:28< iceiceice> and the tests all seem to assume that
20140310 08:18:04< fabi> Yes
20140310 08:18:06< iceiceice> i looked at the mp_unit_map one also, that one seems like an important thing to have tests for... it seems that the failures have to do with just constructing a unit?
20140310 08:18:31< iceiceice> actually if you keep just the first test and comment out everything after the first grunt is allocated, that already gives a "division by zero" error which is quite hard to fathom
20140310 08:19:24< iceiceice> it might be that the tests are using a way of making a rudimentary unit_type which doesn't quite work anymore?
20140310 08:21:51< iceiceice> idk i've become quite interested in the unit_test framework actually, i would like to get a better understanding of it and perhaps write some tests to validate our savegame / loadgame setup
20140310 08:22:17< iceiceice> my feeling is that it would be very worthwhile to fix some of the annoying bugs that exist there, and the framework is already complicated enough that its very hard to spot them by inspection i feel
20140310 08:22:29< iceiceice> or even to fix them given a bad savefile
20140310 08:22:34< iceiceice> so maybe unit tests is the best shot
20140310 08:23:37< iceiceice> but before i would be able to do that most likely i would want to understand / be able to fix some of the unit tests we already have
20140310 08:23:56< iceiceice> is there anything i can read that would be helpful? was there ever any guide to wesnoth unit tests or anything?
20140310 08:36:45< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: I think the AI also needs to know about recall costs.
20140310 08:37:15< shadowm> At least I found a few matches for recall_cost in src/ai.
20140310 08:37:50< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, ohh you mean it doesn't use the same functions that the user uses?
20140310 08:38:28< shadowm> I imagine the matches I get are from recruitment evaluation code, i.e. how the AI decides what to recruit/recall.
20140310 08:38:39 * Aishiko_laptop thinks she is experiencing scope creep =P
20140310 08:38:46< shadowm> The funny thing is I thought the AI was chronically unable to recall or think about recalls.
20140310 08:39:28< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: Anyway, that can be a separate patch or something! No need to do it all at once since it's not commonly-used functionality and all.
20140310 08:39:37< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, no because some of the scenarios have the AI bringing in units beyond lvl1, I guess it could be doing a recruit of the lvl 2
20140310 08:40:01< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: Every scenario I've seen doing that just includes L2 unit types in the recruit lists.
20140310 08:40:12< shadowm> Including those I've coded myself.
20140310 08:40:37< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, plus at the moment I'm tracking down the code that displays a -20 on a unit when its displayed in whiteboard mode
20140310 08:40:43< shadowm> Recruiting a L2 shouldn't require thinking about recalls or recall costs.
20140310 08:41:11< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: Hm, okay, as I said the other day whiteboard is a blackbox for me.
20140310 08:41:20< shadowm> So I can't help you with that, sorry.
20140310 08:41:54< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, its OK It was on my screen but I saw irc flashing at me =)  I should have this fixed for the user by morning
20140310 08:44:31< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, your right in the AI should know about it as well
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20140310 09:27:42< Yasin> Good morning.
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20140310 10:50:08< Yasin> Is lurii Chernyi here? Or anyone I could ask about AI?
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20140310 11:10:30< Aishiko_laptop> Yasin, there were a few earlier Crab_ seems to be the one to talk to on AI issues
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20140310 11:13:31< Yasin> Thanks, Aishiko_laptop. Does he have a fixed online time?
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20140310 12:47:56< fabi> shadowm: Did sylph told you why he connected me to the issue?
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20140310 13:22:31< loonycyborg> fabi: That guy is just a tad insane.
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20140310 13:23:26< fabi> loonycyborg: Yeah, still I am a bit curious why he thinks that I have anything to do with the ladder.
20140310 13:24:06< loonycyborg> Me too. Did you contribute to it? Used it at least?
20140310 13:24:21< fabi> No
20140310 13:24:45< fabi> I always thought we should give the ladder folks more attention. But that is all.
20140310 13:26:10< loonycyborg> Ah. Probably this made him consider you a ladder apologyst, and thus an extremely evil person :P
20140310 13:28:28< fabi> I really must talk to Sylph some day and ask him what he thinks about god and the world.
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20140310 13:31:26< lipkab> fabi: Make sure to cover UFOs and Echelon as well.
20140310 13:31:37< lipkab> And chemtrail.
20140310 13:31:50< fabi> What is chemtrail?
20140310 13:32:31< lipkab> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory
20140310 13:32:44< fabi> ah yes
20140310 13:33:56< fabi> I always thought the project would kick me out some day. But I did never assume that it might happen because of the ladder.
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20140310 13:34:13< fabi> hi mattsc
20140310 13:34:25< mattsc> hi fabi 
20140310 13:34:29< sachith500|2> >.>
20140310 13:35:32< fabi> mattsc: I just opened LoW7 before you joined. I want to put some ai stuff in there.
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20140310 13:36:49< mattsc> fabi: okay - I need to refresh my memory which scenario that is
20140310 13:37:02< mattsc> I'll have a look at the map in a moment
20140310 13:37:06< fabi> mattsc: It is big and huge and has orcs in it :-)
20140310 13:37:24< mattsc> Ooo - orcs.  I like those.
20140310 13:37:33< fabi> rofl
20140310 13:38:51< mattsc> Oh, that one.  Yes.
20140310 13:39:35< mattsc> fabi: well, let's see.  Grnk: goblin.  Fred: Northerners.  Kapou'e - orc.  See a pattern here?
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20140310 13:40:12< vorobeez> hello, mattsc. 
20140310 13:40:36< fabi> mattsc: I guess your micro ais like to be orcs?
20140310 13:40:42< mattsc> hi vorobeez.  I'm just reading up on the logs.
20140310 13:41:12< mattsc> fabi: the MAIs don't care, but Fred (so far) does best with Norterners.
20140310 13:41:50< fabi> mattsc: Okay, the latest incarnation of the scenario puts all northern leaders into a single side.
20140310 13:41:50< mattsc> fabi: anyways, what did you have in mind for that scenario?
20140310 13:41:55< vorobeez> mattsc: i have some question for you. I write simple function for erasing avoided hexes. Can you look at it? (http://pastebin.com/44tgiCcM)
20140310 13:42:18< fabi> mattsc: I don't know if that is a good idea AI wise.
20140310 13:43:13< fabi> But it saved me some sides and the scenario needs a lot of them.
20140310 13:43:31< fabi> Now we have a single enemy with 3 leaders.
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20140310 13:44:57< mattsc> vorobeez: I am really not a C++ person, so while I can see what you are doing there, I have no idea if this is a good way of doing it, sorry.  My main question would be whether putting it into a loop like that is efficient (and I'm not saying that it isn't, I simply don't know).
20140310 13:45:38< mattsc> fabi: okay
20140310 13:45:43< fabi> mattsc: In the south I like to introduce a different side, monsters caught by the orcs and released. They attack every other side.
20140310 13:46:05< fabi> The orcs just hope that they attack elves because the elves are between orcs and monsters.
20140310 13:46:09< mattsc> fabi: are you trying to save sides just for esthetic reasons?
20140310 13:46:17< mattsc> or is there another reason?
20140310 13:46:40< fabi> Well, first >10 sides are hard to get, we do not have enough colors anymore.
20140310 13:46:44< mattsc> fabi: given how the Wesnoth AI works, that's probably a good assumption by the orcs.
20140310 13:47:18< fabi> Maybe the player finds a way to turn the monsters against the orcs.
20140310 13:47:25< vorobeez> mattsc: sorry, i will wait Crab_. I'll think over the effectiveness of this function. 
20140310 13:48:19< mattsc> vorobeez: no worries, I am sorry that I cannot help more.  I am generally better with general AI behavior questions than with the coding part of it.
20140310 13:49:06< vorobeez> mattsc: ok, thank you. Do you read my sketch of plan?
20140310 13:49:07< mattsc> vorobeez: however, even if it is not the most efficient way, you could still implement it just to see if the concept works, and then worry about making it efficient later.
20140310 13:49:24< fabi> 2) It is easier to use the minimap when there are less sides on the field.
20140310 13:49:25< mattsc> vorobeez: yes, I did.
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20140310 13:49:50< fabi> 3) It is easer to compare the amount of gold involved in the scenario.
20140310 13:50:00< mattsc> vorobeez: it's very high-level at this point, so there's not too much to say other than that it sounds good in general and needs more detail.
20140310 13:50:04< fabi> 4) Status dialogs are not so crowded.
20140310 13:50:38< fabi> shadowm might know a lot more reasons. He likes to have a lot sides in scenarios.
20140310 13:51:06< vorobeez> mattsc: yes, i know. I will write more detaily today. Thank you.
20140310 13:51:10< mattsc> vorobeez: you should also give some thought to (and describe in the proposal) what kind of metrics you want to try to use to evaluate the situation/enemy behavior and what specific actions the AI should try.
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20140310 13:52:12< mattsc> vorobeez: that's just my thoughts on reading this - plus the thing that I said earlier already that any enemy behavior will always be a mix of actions, so more detail on how to evaluate that is needed.
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20140310 13:52:57< mattsc> vorobeez: just my thoughts.  Crab_ is the mentor for this project, so he knows this better and might have a different take on this.
20140310 13:53:31< mattsc> fabi: okay, thanks.  That was just a question out of curiosity, not meant as an argument.  :)
20140310 13:53:37< vorobeez> mattsc: I understand what you mean. I wrtie down more precisely and detaily. And about this function. I do not know where to embed it and how to apply it. That's what I wanted to ask. So i will wait Crab_. 
20140310 13:53:52< mattsc> fabi: so do you have any questions about AI behavior at this time?
20140310 13:54:30< fabi> mattsc: The Naga villain in the northwest. It is able to recruit Water Serpents. It would be nice if it continuous to recruit them, but not only them.
20140310 13:54:40< mattsc> vorobeez: yeah, sorry.  I read up on what Crab_ said and that is somewhat different from what I was expected, so it's better to ask him.
20140310 13:55:34< fabi> I guess all the water units do work well.
20140310 13:55:57< fabi> They can swim down the river and attack the castle quite efficiently.
20140310 13:56:03< sachith500|2> hey mattsc about unit positioning
20140310 13:56:13< sachith500|2> the current AI doesn't do much right?
20140310 13:56:23< vorobeez> mattsc: Filing of applications opens today. There is still some time after the opening to finish work on the code do you think?
20140310 13:56:44< mattsc> vorobeez: also, I don't know if I already told you, I will start traveling later today for the next 1.5 weeks and will not be in contact much.  I will try to check on the logs, but it might take me a little to catch up (and at times I'll be entirely out of contact for a while).
20140310 13:56:45< sachith500|2> I mean defensive positioning?
20140310 13:56:54< fabi> I mean there might be no need to touch their default behavior.
20140310 13:57:50< mattsc> fabi: okay - if you want to prescribe recruiting order or ratios etc., you can use flix' new recruitment aspects.  It's very powerful in that respect.
20140310 13:58:03< vorobeez> mattsc: oh, sorry. Did not want to burden you.
20140310 13:58:06< mattsc> sachith500|2: the default AI does no defensive positioning
20140310 13:58:16< mattsc> vorobeez: stop apologizing.  :)
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20140310 13:58:19< sachith500|2> ah what about the experimental ones
20140310 13:59:11< mattsc> vorobeez: When I am here, I'm happy to help.  I'm just telling you that I might not be around much for the next 10 days, but that's not because I am avoiding people.  :)
20140310 13:59:24< mattsc> sachith500|2: no, that one does not either.
20140310 13:59:30< sachith500|2> cool ;D
20140310 13:59:51< fabi> The Trolls tend to commit suicide at the northern border of the forest.
20140310 13:59:55< mattsc> sachith500|2: Fred (the AI I am mostly working on at the moment) does some, but I think that's it for now.
20140310 13:59:57< vorobeez> mattsc: ok :) 
20140310 14:00:13< sachith500|2> oh nice
20140310 14:01:03< fabi> mattsc: Okay, can you please give me the link to enable fred, again?
20140310 14:01:30< fabi> I think it is a good idea to just apply it to both enemy sides.
20140310 14:02:35< mattsc> fabi: you don't want to use Fred at the moment.  If you mean Ron (Experimental AI in mainline), you just put [ai]{ EXPERIMENTAL_AI }[/ai] in the side definition.
20140310 14:03:27< fabi> hmmm, it does not sound like a good idea anymore :-)
20140310 14:03:44< fabi> Okay, is there anything more needed?
20140310 14:04:03< fabi> Maybe some tuning because the fraction is chaotic?
20140310 14:04:08< fabi> faction
20140310 14:04:18< mattsc> fabi: sorry, for what?  Using the Experimental AI?  No.
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20140310 14:04:39< fabi> It already knows about night and day?
20140310 14:05:12< mattsc> Yes.  The ExpAI is really just a minor improvement to the default AI.
20140310 14:05:23< fabi> In earlier versions of the scenario's ai coding I had different caution and aggression values depending on the day of time.
20140310 14:05:25< mattsc> "Experimental AI with alternative recruitment, castle switching, alternative retreating, village grabbing, poison spreading, healer placement, village hunting and move-to-enemy candidate actions."
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20140310 14:06:15< mattsc> fabi: that works to some extent
20140310 14:06:46< Yasin> mattsc, quick question. unit_map.first is the unit location and unit_map.second is a pointer to the unit itself?
20140310 14:07:13< mattsc> fabi: so the ExpAI doesn't look that different if you watch it play, but those changes are enough that it has something like an 85-90% win rate against the default AI.
20140310 14:07:22< fabi> mattsc: Your ai tuning on SotBE, was it mostly applying micro ais?
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20140310 14:08:00< mattsc> Yasin: uh, don't know off the top of my head (I'm not really a C++ person).  fabi ^ you probably knwo the answer to that.
20140310 14:08:37< fabi> Yasin: unit_map::iterator?
20140310 14:08:41< Yasin> Yes.
20140310 14:10:05< mattsc> fabi: it was a bit of tuning the aspects (recruiting, mostly), adding a couple of Micro AIs, and I wrote a custom AI for the transport ships in one scenario.
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20140310 14:11:21< fabi> Did you alos apply the [ai] { EXPERIMENTAL_AI }[/ai] to all the scenarios?
20140310 14:11:27< fabi> s/alos/also
20140310 14:11:36< mattsc> fabi: no, I did not.
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20140310 14:12:09< fabi> hmmmm
20140310 14:12:31< mattsc> The ExpAI is still just that, experimental, and subject to change.  I didn't really want to have to rebalance the campaign every time we decide to make a change to it.
20140310 14:12:46< fabi> okay
20140310 14:13:26< mattsc> We could, of course, say that we will freeze this version and when improvements are made, that will be a separate AI.  So if you want to use it, that's a possibility.
20140310 14:13:32< fabi> I am not sure if I should do any ai related tuning to LoW anymore.
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20140310 14:14:02< mattsc> fabi: okay, just let me know if you do.
20140310 14:14:26< fabi> Well, I just don't know exactly what is a good idea.
20140310 14:14:44< fabi> If you want anything more tested it can have its home in LoW.
20140310 14:15:09< mattsc> fabi: and my goal is to turn Fred into another version of experimental AI that can be dialed in, but currently we're a long way from that
20140310 14:15:27< fabi> Where does fred fail?
20140310 14:15:29< fabi> When
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20140310 14:16:18< mattsc> fabi: mostly the behavior is too erratic.  He does a bunch of good moves and then some really stupid stuff in between.
20140310 14:16:35< fabi> LoW is currently quite unbalanced, all the MP related changes destroyed most of the balance.
20140310 14:17:07< mattsc> Also, evaluation time can be _very_ long, but that's something I'll worry about later.  I don't want to spend time on optimizing code that I'll throw out later.
20140310 14:17:10< fabi> So it is a quite good field for experiments, considered being broken already.
20140310 14:17:59< mattsc> fabi: okay, that makes sense, but I assume that you don't want to rebalance over and over again anyway.
20140310 14:18:13< fabi> Indeed.
20140310 14:18:37< mattsc> fabi: let me work some more on Fred.  I've actually been making pretty good progress over the last few weeks now that my main commitments for mainline are done.
20140310 14:19:54< mattsc> I'll never get him to be able to stand up to one of the better players on even terms, but he already has something like a 98% win rate against the default AI, so if I can get him to avoid at least most of the really stupid stuff, maybe he'll become usable in at least some of the LoW scenarios.
20140310 14:20:13< spoffy> 98% is pretty impressive.
20140310 14:20:21< fabi> Okay, I would love to see it being used in LoW.
20140310 14:20:52< mattsc> It's my main emphasis at the moment (even before Grnk).  :)
20140310 14:21:33< mattsc> spoffy: thanks - yeah, we're pretty happy with that, but playing against a human player is very different from testing against the AI.
20140310 14:23:40< spoffy> Mattsc: Very true. But still being able to throw around a 98% success rate must be a great feeling ;) And it clearly demonstrates a major improvement somewhere.
20140310 14:23:49< Soliton> do you have any idea why it wins? worst case it's just very good at abusing the default AIs flaws.
20140310 14:24:25< spoffy> Soliton: I once wrote a robot for robocode that got its ass kicked. So I changed it to exploit a single flaw in the robot's design so it won every time. Fun times. /aside
20140310 14:25:01< Soliton> yeah, that's what i mean. :-)
20140310 14:25:42< spoffy> Haha. It's unlikely, but would be interesting if it did.
20140310 14:25:50< spoffy> At the very least it'd reveal a major flaw in the old ai.
20140310 14:25:54< mattsc> Soliton: there are lots of changes, but the ones that make the most difference, I think, are more aggressive vilage grabbing and knowing when _not_ to attack.
20140310 14:26:17< Soliton> ah, sounds very reasonable.
20140310 14:26:51< spoffy> mattsc: Has it been trialed against good human players? I'm curious now. :P
20140310 14:27:29< mattsc> spoffy: not recently, but early on, yes.  That is, if you consider TBS a good player.  ;)
20140310 14:27:37< mattsc> ... and the like ...
20140310 14:27:50< spoffy> mattsc: Haha, don't know him :P I've not been hanging around irc too long ;)
20140310 14:28:03< spoffy> mattsc: Might be worth doing another trial? See how it handles now? :)
20140310 14:28:08< mattsc> spoffy: he's not on IRC.  The Black Sword.
20140310 14:29:00< spoffy> mattsc: Haha, a quick google reveals much. Fair enough :) Sounds like a rematch is in order!
20140310 14:29:00< mattsc> spoffy: yes, we will, but Fred isn't ready yet.  Also, there's a problem with having those really good guys test AIs.
20140310 14:29:35< spoffy> mattsc: Ahh, okay. Maybe try against a range of skill levels? And what is it? *Waits for ominous truth*
20140310 14:29:36< mattsc> They are extremely good at latching on onto the opponent's weaknesses and exploiting them.
20140310 14:30:16< mattsc> That is what you want to do to win a match, but it only tells you what the biggest problem with the AI is.
20140310 14:30:43< mattsc> Ideally, you want to know both what the AI does badly, and what it does well.  So you need to convince those guys to actually play badly.  :D
20140310 14:32:27< mattsc> spoffy: yes, I am working on getting Fred to play somewhat more consistently.  Once that is done, I'll release a new version and will invite people to do some testing again.
20140310 14:33:35< mattsc> fabi: one thing that just came to mind - the scenario you mentioned is a prime candidate for exploiting the "AI will not attack untis 1XP from leveling" weakness.
20140310 14:34:01< fabi> oh
20140310 14:34:19< mattsc> You can use the Simple Attack Micro AI to work around that.
20140310 14:34:30< mattsc> fabi: isn't it?
20140310 14:34:48< fabi> why should it?
20140310 14:35:56< spoffy> mattsc: Sounds fun! It actually sounds if it's excellent at locating opponent's weaknesses, it'd be a good learning tool for players.
20140310 14:36:20< mattsc> Say you have two units 1XP from leveling and put them on the two castle hexes in the north, the AI will not attack there.
20140310 14:36:44< mattsc> I think
20140310 14:37:59< mattsc> spoffy: I meant that the good human players are good at that.  The AI does not know anything about that.
20140310 14:38:44< spoffy> spoffy: Oh, my bad, haha. Yeah, that's very true. Though if it was a learning AI... aaanyways :P 
20140310 14:38:53< mattsc> fabi: maybe not, since it could potentially attack from 3 or 4 different hexes.
20140310 14:39:03< spoffy> mattsc: Whoops, fail. See the message I addressed to myself *facepalms*
20140310 14:39:41< mattsc> spoffy: yeah, so it.  :)  Well, the machine learning stuff has its problems too, as far as I understand it.
20140310 14:39:50< mattsc> But yes, there are lots of options.
20140310 14:41:42< spoffy> Makes sense. I don't see making a new AI as anything trivial by any stretch of the imagination.
20140310 14:42:27< spoffy> mattsc: Could always stream good players playing badly. Sounds like it might be a funny thing to watch.
20140310 14:46:39< mattsc> spoffy: yeah, I'll put you in charge of that when the time comes.  :)
20140310 14:47:16< spoffy> mattsc: Haha, 'Summer of Code project: Make good players play badly and stream it'
20140310 14:47:38< spoffy> Wouldn't mind having a stab at arranging that though :P
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20140310 14:54:23< fabi> mattsc: Hmmm, the experimental ai is not recruiting.
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20140310 14:58:38< mattsc> fabi: oh?  Under what circumstances, put in one of the scenarios with the macro?
20140310 14:58:57< fabi> mattsc: low7
20140310 14:59:10< mattsc> SP or MP mode?
20140310 14:59:37< fabi> mattsc: the side featuring 3 leaders with leader specific recruit lists.
20140310 14:59:43< fabi> sp
20140310 15:00:16< mattsc> fabi: ah, hmm, TBH I am not sure if it can handle multiple leaders for recruiting.
20140310 15:00:46< mattsc> Alarantalara wrote the recruitment code, so I am not as familiar with that part, but I can look into it later if you want me to.
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20140310 15:01:55< mattsc> fabi: but you could use all the rest of the ExpAI without recruiting and just use default recruiting.
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20140310 15:22:14< aquileia> sorry for bugging wesnoth-bugs@gna.org, I thought only mordante would be notified
20140310 15:23:40< aquileia> shadowm: "When changing WML, please add a pointer in the wiki to where it should be updated when commited" What does that imply exactly?
20140310 15:24:52< aquileia> Is there a wiki page where all new WML tags are listed?
20140310 15:25:32< aquileia> Because those would have to registered for syntax highlighting I guess
20140310 15:25:49< aquileia> mordante: GUIToolkitWML and GUIWidgetDefinitionWML don't list password boxes
20140310 15:26:21< aquileia> I assume that's intended and my num box should stay out as well?
20140310 15:27:40< aquileia> Under GUIWindowDefinitionWML the passwor box is just listed as a text_box
20140310 15:27:47< aquileia> *password
20140310 15:41:51< vorobeez> Guys, it's okay if I send the proposal not 10, March 12, for example?
20140310 15:45:44< Ivanovic> vorobeez: there is just a deadline until which it needs to be submitted to google
20140310 15:45:53< Ivanovic> and at that date it should be "good enough" so that we can review it
20140310 15:46:10< Ivanovic> (reviewing takes some time, so getting it done the day before we need to finalize the selection won't work)
20140310 15:46:27< Ivanovic> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/events/google/gsoc2014
20140310 15:47:11< Ivanovic> if you miss the deadline march 21st: no chance (at all!) to get in for gsoc 2014
20140310 15:47:19< Ivanovic> (google does not extend deadline!!!)
20140310 15:48:09< vultraz> (unless for serious circumstances)
20140310 15:49:21< vorobeez> so until March 20, I can work without fear of losing all the chances?
20140310 15:49:56< Ivanovic> vorobeez: what i would suggest you do ASAP: submit the proposal with the basic personal information to google once the application time opens
20140310 15:50:17< Ivanovic> that requires you to provide a "topic" plus some personal information
20140310 15:50:29< Ivanovic> in the post you provide a link to the wiki page you are working on
20140310 15:50:35< Ivanovic> and you can update the wiki page over time
20140310 15:50:45< Ivanovic> (and should ask for feedback while doing so!)
20140310 15:50:57< sachith500|2> about that Ivanovic after 20 march do we do nothing, basically?
20140310 15:51:12< Ivanovic> sachith500|2: you should still communicate with us
20140310 15:51:18< sachith500|2> yeah I mean
20140310 15:51:21< Ivanovic> we might have some further questions about the proposal
20140310 15:51:22< Ivanovic> ;)
20140310 15:51:26< sachith500|2> I know :P
20140310 15:51:31< sachith500|2> I meant, on the wiki page?
20140310 15:51:34< sachith500|2> no more work?
20140310 15:51:51< sachith500|2> because doing work on that would be kind of against the rules right?
20140310 15:51:56< Ivanovic> oh, you can and should still update it if you come across something
20140310 15:52:02< sachith500|2> oh cool
20140310 15:52:17< Ivanovic> that is: if you do so, make sure to leave a comment somewhere stating what you changed, e.g. state which area you reworked in the google page
20140310 15:52:46< Ivanovic> in fact for about 90% of all submitted proposals we explicitly *ask* for further stuff
20140310 15:52:49< Ivanovic> ;)
20140310 15:53:00< vorobeez> Ivanovic: whether I should write a separate proposal or all the information should be stored on wiki-page?
20140310 15:53:37< Ivanovic> vorobeez: my suggestion: put the personal information (how we can contact you as backup (phone, email, ...) in the google page
20140310 15:53:46< Ivanovic> besides you only need to have a link to the wiki page in there
20140310 15:53:50< sachith500|2> are google ok with that though?
20140310 15:53:54< Ivanovic> that is perfectly fine for us
20140310 15:53:56< sachith500|2> I mean it makes sense
20140310 15:53:57< sachith500|2> :D
20140310 15:54:20< Ivanovic> sachith500|2: uhm, they "unlock" the proposal page in the google tracker after we leave a comment, so yeah, they are fine with stuff like this
20140310 15:54:28< Ivanovic> this is not some fire and forget program
20140310 15:54:29< sachith500|2> oh ok then :D
20140310 15:54:41< sachith500|2> yeah I know
20140310 15:54:43< sachith500|2> ^_^
20140310 15:55:06< sachith500|2> I was just checking because they had a rigid proposal period, that's all hehe :D
20140310 15:55:12< sachith500|2> now it makes sense
20140310 15:55:18< sachith500|2> why the second period is so long
20140310 15:55:27< sachith500|2> :D
20140310 15:55:39< Ivanovic> the orgs need to be able to judge them and ask questions
20140310 15:55:47< sachith500|2> indeed
20140310 15:56:20< Ivanovic> now imagine that some orgs are "umbrellas" (like kde or the python foundation)
20140310 15:56:25< vorobeez> Ivanovic: thank you for help with this stuff
20140310 15:56:35< sachith500|2> right
20140310 15:56:38< Ivanovic> they get about 50 to 70 slots for their *huge* amount of sub projects
20140310 15:56:42< sachith500|2> the ones that get a ton of proposals
20140310 15:56:49< sachith500|2> yeah
20140310 15:56:51< Ivanovic> this requires a lot more effort than for our small, centralized community
20140310 15:56:58< sachith500|2> :D
20140310 15:57:08< sachith500|2> ah right
20140310 15:57:11< sachith500|2> makes sense
20140310 15:57:17< Ivanovic> we usually get away with every mentor having a rough look at every proposal
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20140310 16:04:04< sachith500|2> so who ends up grading the proposals?
20140310 16:04:12< sachith500|2> only the mentors?
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20140310 16:07:30< Ivanovic> sachith500|2: only the mentors of the org who receive the proposals
20140310 16:07:37< Ivanovic> that is: mentors and admins
20140310 16:08:01< sachith500|2> interesting
20140310 16:08:10< sachith500|2> so overall for wesnoth, that'd be about 10 people?
20140310 16:08:25< sachith500|2> assuming 4-5 projects
20140310 16:09:06< vorobeez> Ivanovic: what role in the selection of students at Google?
20140310 16:09:17< sachith500|2> >.>
20140310 16:10:09< Ivanovic> vorobeez: google has no direct role
20140310 16:11:00< sachith500|2> they'd go bonkers if they did
20140310 16:11:04< Ivanovic> sachith500|2: less than 10 people, yeah
20140310 16:11:15< sachith500|2> cool
20140310 16:11:20< Ivanovic> vorobeez: all google does is assign slots to orgs after the orgs asked for slots
20140310 16:11:40< sachith500|2> Ivanovic I was curious do you have any policy regarding return gsoc students?
20140310 16:11:47< sachith500|2> say i was doing it next year
20140310 16:11:49< sachith500|2> again
20140310 16:11:58< Ivanovic> same rules apply to everybody
20140310 16:12:11< Ivanovic> no matter if previous gsoc student, previous developer or new guy
20140310 16:12:29< Ivanovic> so we look for the same in activity, quality of project proposal, reactions on feedback, ...
20140310 16:12:35< sachith500|2> oh nice
20140310 16:13:03< sachith500|2> what I actually meant was whether you allow repeat gsoc students :P
20140310 16:13:05< Ivanovic> vorobeez: and google usually just hands out the number of slots asked for, unless the number is "unrealistic high"
20140310 16:13:13< sachith500|2> a friend told me that some orgs don't
20140310 16:13:16< vorobeez> Ivanovic: Why Google is interested in GSoC?
20140310 16:13:19< Ivanovic> they basically compare to the number of proposals submitted and have a rough ratio there
20140310 16:13:20< sachith500|2> they want fresh blood it seems.
20140310 16:13:26< happygrue> sure sachith500|2, repeat is fine.  And also just working on stuff in between too ;)
20140310 16:13:31< happygrue> some people have done that
20140310 16:13:31< Ivanovic> vorobeez: no idea, really
20140310 16:13:36< Ivanovic> vorobeez: there are several possible reasons
20140310 16:13:36< sachith500|2> oh?
20140310 16:13:39< happygrue> come for GSoC and then stayed a bit ;)
20140310 16:13:40< Ivanovic> 1) image
20140310 16:13:43< sachith500|2> :D
20140310 16:13:45< Ivanovic> 2) tax deductible
20140310 16:13:51< sachith500|2> I could imagine that happening very easily
20140310 16:13:56< Ivanovic> 3) find good people
20140310 16:13:57< sachith500|2> also they like open source
20140310 16:14:01< sachith500|2> their crawlers
20140310 16:14:09< sachith500|2> rely on the web being open
20140310 16:14:18< Ivanovic> 4) give back to the people out there
20140310 16:14:32< Ivanovic> vorobeez: my guess it is some combination of at least some of the points above
20140310 16:14:41< Ivanovic> if there are further reasons? no idea!
20140310 16:15:05< Ivanovic> i guess that '1' and '2' are the most prominent ones
20140310 16:15:29< Ivanovic> where '1' could be split into "image in the open source and IT world" as well as "image at college students"
20140310 16:15:50< Ivanovic> don't forget that many people active in open source projects tend to do some IT stuff in their real life, too
20140310 16:16:01< Ivanovic> which in the end can help google gain a better position
20140310 16:16:18< sachith500|2> whatever their reasons I'm really grateful :D
20140310 16:16:23< sachith500|2> this is an awesome oppurtunity
20140310 16:16:27< Ivanovic> combine this with those IT folks being the people who are asked questions like "which phone should I buy?" and you got a nice combination
20140310 16:16:28< sachith500|2> for so many things
20140310 16:16:29< sachith500|2> :D
20140310 16:16:51< sachith500|2> Ivanovic, I hadn't thought of that perspective before, hehe
20140310 16:17:20< Ivanovic> sachith500|2: over the last 2 years since i started working i learned a lot about looking behind the fence
20140310 16:17:37< Ivanovic> often the reasons for stuff like this are thought a little more long term than just the direct revenue
20140310 16:17:53< sachith500|2> hmm
20140310 16:18:02< sachith500|2> that's true
20140310 16:18:07< Ivanovic> (okay, in fact I also have to look for the short and longterm effects of stuff)
20140310 16:18:21< sachith500|2> :D
20140310 16:18:40< sachith500|2> we had this ceremony at our uni
20140310 16:18:47< sachith500|2> because our uni was the most successful at gsoc
20140310 16:18:50< sachith500|2> for a few years now
20140310 16:18:54< sachith500|2> Chris Debona visited
20140310 16:18:59< sachith500|2> and he was asked exactly that
20140310 16:19:13< sachith500|2> "what does google get out of gsoc?"
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20140310 16:19:28< sachith500|2> and he talked mostly about the web-crawler stuff I mentioned
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20140310 16:19:53< Ivanovic> hey, this was a marketing event
20140310 16:20:01< sachith500|2> hahaha
20140310 16:20:02< sachith500|2> :D
20140310 16:20:05< Ivanovic> no need to show the "evil" side of "we get even more out"
20140310 16:20:07< sachith500|2> true, true :D
20140310 16:21:34< vorobeez> in my university only i and my friend knows about GSoC =(
20140310 16:22:21< sachith500|2> oh :\
20140310 16:22:25< sachith500|2> well it takes only a few
20140310 16:22:28< sachith500|2> ;) to start
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20140310 17:07:55< spoffy> trademark: Want to continue discussing docs?
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20140310 17:26:05< trademark> spoffy, hey
20140310 17:27:05< trademark> spoffy, I don't have much time today, if you have good arguments, just drop me a line ;-)
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20140310 17:54:13< Aishiko_laptop> I'm almost done with the user stuff but I'm having a difficult time getting a map_location to give up the unit's id
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20140310 18:16:40< JunJM> Any developer here knows where i could locate the appropiate files for the notsoeasy coding project (having to do with config object tree)?
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20140310 18:36:15< shadowm> fabi: No, I forgot to ask, but I really think it's just because you are listed as moderator of that section.
20140310 18:37:44< shadowm> aquileia: The relevant pages in ReferenceWML, including the sidebar template.
20140310 18:38:01< shadowm> aquileia: We don't have syntax highlighting.
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20140310 18:38:14< shadowm> In the wiki, that is.
20140310 18:39:16< aquileia> I just thought that the emacs, vim, notepad++, ... configuration files need an update
20140310 18:39:34< shadowm> JunJM: The config class and related types are declared and implemented in src/config.hpp and src/config.cpp, respectively.
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20140310 18:40:12< shadowm> aquileia: I don't know about those, since we don't formally maintain them even though some (not all) are part of the mainline repository.
20140310 18:40:23< aquileia> ah, ok
20140310 18:40:32< JunJM> shadowm: is the memory config optimaize still open? I ask because I thought I saw a post on the forum about it someone handling it (although unsure if it was the same topic )
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20140310 18:40:44< JunJM> shadowm: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=25990 
20140310 18:41:09< aquileia> Just in case it's easy enough: Should I update those as well in my patch?
20140310 18:41:12< shadowm> aquileia: There's also the fact that some syntax highlighting schemata (e.g. Kate's) don't take into account "standard" WML tag names either.
20140310 18:41:31< shadowm> aquileia: In a separate patch, maybe.
20140310 18:42:59< shadowm> JunJM: Good question. Both that developer and another developer have made changes to how the config class works since then with optimization as a goal, but I wouldn't know what the extent of those changes is with regards to things like copy-on-write and such.
20140310 18:44:22< JunJM> shadowm: appreciate the help. Yea, im reviewing over the files and it seems done...
20140310 18:51:41< shadowm> lipkab: I've deleted King.
20140310 18:58:55< aquileia> Anybody using VIM ?
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20140310 19:04:02< vorobeez> Ivanovic: I have a question for you. At the moment i learning in Ivanovo(Russia), but at summer i will be live in Simferopol(Crimea). What address I specify for google?
20140310 19:04:38< Ivanovic> vorobeez: you should specify an address where the mail both at the beginning and end will reach you
20140310 19:04:49< Ivanovic> the matter here is that you get a "payment card" shipped
20140310 19:04:58-!- kex [~kex@89.205.75.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20140310 19:06:17< vorobeez> Ivanovic: oh, this is complicated. I'm going to stay in the Crimea. My parents live there. Probably will show this address.
20140310 19:07:03< zookeeper> maybe not the best of times to move to crimea :x
20140310 19:07:58< vorobeez> I lived there for 18 years
20140310 19:08:36< zookeeper> not the best of times to move back, then :P
20140310 19:08:40< zookeeper> good luck
20140310 19:09:25-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 19:10:37< vorobeez> zookeeper: thank you. 
20140310 19:15:38-!- JunJM [60fc984b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.252.152.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20140310 19:17:49< aquileia> shadowm: Hmm... reference WML doesn't list GUI tags, so I should be fine not to include mine
20140310 19:18:16< zookeeper> although it definitely _should_
20140310 19:19:05 * aquileia didn't enlist for completing reference WML
20140310 19:19:21< zookeeper> sure
20140310 19:19:37< zookeeper> just saying, in case someone would think otherwise :p
20140310 19:20:13< aquileia> Perhaps a separate GUI WML reference?
20140310 19:20:26< aquileia> And linking between both?
20140310 19:20:35< shadowm> I think it shouldn't, since those tend to change without warning, but it's really mordante's call.
20140310 19:22:09< shadowm> GUI2 tags are documented in the pages in http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Category:GUI_WML_Reference, in general.
20140310 19:23:51< shadowm> But 75% of the time people will be forced to look at the actual code in mainline anyway.
20140310 19:24:44-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@wh.Uni-Dortmund.DE] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 19:25:13< aquileia> The pages you listed are created automatically, but aren't complete either
20140310 19:25:21-!- lipkab [~lipkab@host-91-147-212-189.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 19:25:23< zookeeper> well i couldn't make heads or tails of the content of those pages anyway :>
20140310 19:25:36< shadowm> aquileia: Hence the last statement. :)
20140310 19:26:00-!- kex [~kex@89.205.75.19] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 19:26:55< lipkab> shadowm: Thanks.
20140310 19:27:11-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.12 branch created | string+feature freeze active on 1.12 | 221 bugs, 352 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Alternate logs: http://wesnoth.debian.net | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20140310 19:27:23< lipkab> aquileia: I use Vim.
20140310 19:28:30< vorobeez> goodnight guys
20140310 19:28:42< lipkab> Bye.
20140310 19:28:47< aquileia> lipkab: Are GUI tags highlighted for you? There is some regular expression to catch tags in the syntax highlighting files, but I don't know what it catches
20140310 19:28:48-!- vorobeez [~quassel@85.142.148.12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20140310 19:29:30< lipkab> aquileia: I can't check it now, but IIRC they aren't.
20140310 19:29:56< aquileia> So it'd be nice to include them in the tag list...
20140310 19:30:12 * aquileia considers...
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20140310 19:31:32< aquileia> do you need them highlighted?
20140310 19:31:58< aquileia> because if nobody cares: less work
20140310 19:34:22-!- lipkab [~lipkab@host-91-147-212-189.biatv.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20140310 19:34:56< aquileia> shadowm, zookeeper: They miss in AlphabeticalWML as well
20140310 19:35:35< shadowm> "This page was last modified on 20 March 2012, at 18:17."
20140310 19:35:45< aquileia> Wasn't there a Google Project to get administrative things done?
20140310 19:36:01< zookeeper> which reminds me that the WML tag sidebar is terrible because it screws up the search functionality. i can't search for a given tag, because every page has a match.
20140310 19:36:04< aquileia> IIRC there was something on the ML
20140310 19:36:25< zookeeper> hmh
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20140310 19:36:43< zookeeper> i wonder if i could just click the item in the sidebar though, instead of searching for it. that's an idea.
20140310 19:37:19< shadowm> That works for some pages, it depends on whether there's an anchor for the tag or not.
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20140310 19:59:24< Crab_>  vorobeez: please allow comments on your draft plan, I'll comment on it.
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20140310 20:00:02-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20140310 20:00:33< Dugi> Hello, guys.
20140310 20:00:47-!- irker947 [~irker@ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 20:00:47< irker947> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth:master b6ce79e634ca / utils/mp-server/update_server: update_server: The 1.12 branch now exists http://git.io/wjhjSA
20140310 20:01:20< Dugi> I was working on the add-on system, but I got stuck.
20140310 20:01:31-!- EdB [~edb@85.69.242.6] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20140310 20:02:08< Dugi> I try to send a new kind of request to the server, but the server does not even seem to receive it.
20140310 20:02:29< shadowm> campaignd ignores requests it doesn't recognize.
20140310 20:02:42< shadowm> No idea if you are working with campaignd or umcd there, though.
20140310 20:03:22< Dugi> I added a new type of request to campaignd.
20140310 20:03:59< shadowm> And you are connecting to your local instance which is presumably running a modified binary?
20140310 20:04:10< Dugi> Yes.
20140310 20:04:35< shadowm> Well, no idea then without looking at the code.
20140310 20:05:01< Dugi> I'll paste it somewhere, wait a while...
20140310 20:05:17-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 20:06:18< Dugi> Okay, here are the modified files: client http://www.pasteall.org/50140 , server http://www.pasteall.org/50139
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20140310 20:06:43< shadowm> I'd rather see a patch made with `git diff`
20140310 20:07:13< Dugi> I haven't made a fork yet.
20140310 20:07:35< shadowm> That doesn't matter. git diff shows the difference between the branch's HEAD and the working tree.
20140310 20:10:21-!- exciton_ [chuck-the-@95.73.112.98] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 20:10:51< shadowm> Dugi: Still there?
20140310 20:11:16< Dugi> Yeah, still here.
20140310 20:11:26< shadowm> Dugi: I said I'd prefer to see a patch made with `git diff`.
20140310 20:11:33< Dugi> But I don't have git set up.
20140310 20:11:44< shadowm> What do you mean? Then what are you working with?
20140310 20:12:11< Dugi> I'll do that later, now I'll just post a diff between my edits relevant to the problem on 1.11.9 and the 1.11.11
20140310 20:12:17< shadowm> Didn't you clone the Wesnoth repository and make your changes on top of the working tree?
20140310 20:12:36< Dugi> I have just downloaded the source and started editing the files. I guess it wasn't the best idea.
20140310 20:12:47< shadowm> Okay, that explains why pasting your changes results in a commit of mine being automatically reverted.
20140310 20:12:57< shadowm> diff-wise.
20140310 20:13:11< Dugi> I can merge that.
20140310 20:13:40< Dugi> I want to change to 1.11.11 and set it up properly, but I am used to use subversion and not git.
20140310 20:14:08-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.170.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20140310 20:14:11< shadowm> 'clone' once, 'pull' forever (and 'checkout' to switch branches), it's not too different int hat regard.
20140310 20:15:18< Dugi> Will take some time, I don't have git installed yet.
20140310 20:15:44< vultraz> git is very easy to install
20140310 20:16:05< shadowm> Probably the only difference is that git doesn't cater to lazy people as well as svn, so it won't go around automatically merging their local changes with those from upstream unless explicitly asked to do otherwise. Some people complain about this, but I find the approach far better than SVN either 1) randomly adding conflict markers when I least expect it; or 2) interrupting an update operation forever to wait for me to say ...
20140310 20:16:12< shadowm> ... something.
20140310 20:17:59< shadowm> Dugi: What is the archive_cfg parameter to addons_client::rate_addon()?
20140310 20:19:05< Dugi> Just a blank variable, send_request required it and I've seen that other functions just used blank variables for that.
20140310 20:19:40< shadowm> It shouldn't be named archive_cfg, that name is for the response body of operations that receive a WML archive.
20140310 20:20:28< shadowm> If you don't care about the add-ons server's response, just don't include it in the method's interface and call the send_request() method with a temporary/throwaway config for the response.
20140310 20:20:40< Dugi> It was used as the response body, but this kind of request did not need to read any kind of response.
20140310 20:20:59< Dugi> Ah, that would be better.
20140310 20:21:17< Dugi> Damn, this git is downloading pretty slowly.
20140310 20:21:45< shadowm> gui2::taddon_description::this_users_rating -> I don't like this.
20140310 20:22:34< shadowm> The add-ons client shouldn't depend on any GUI2 components other than the network transmission dialog, also the name could be improved (e.g. "local_rating").
20140310 20:23:01< shadowm> Now, does this code even compile?
20140310 20:23:21< shadowm> rate_addon()'s implementation begins with return !this->update_last_error(response_buf);, and response_buf hasn't been declared anywhere.
20140310 20:23:23< Dugi> It compiles. The problem is that the server request never gets processed.
20140310 20:23:43< shadowm> I strongly doubt it compiles.
20140310 20:23:52< shadowm> And even if it did, you are returning immediately before even preparing the request.
20140310 20:25:29< Dugi> Wow, this must have been some kind of mistake, the same line is at the end of the function, I must have accidentally copied it to its beginning. I had verified that the function was running till its end.
20140310 20:25:47< shadowm> No, the same line is not at the end of the function.
20140310 20:26:02< shadowm> The argument to update_last_error() has a different name in both cases.
20140310 20:26:09< Dugi> Yes, you're right.
20140310 20:26:59< Dugi> I don't know what did I accidentally paste there, but when I was debugging that problem, it surely ran through send_request part of the code.
20140310 20:27:12< Dugi> I had verified it.
20140310 20:27:15< shadowm> So, with that fixed, I believe it should work. Assuming you are calling the rate_addon() method from somewhere else meaningful, anyway...
20140310 20:27:48< shadowm> There's no way for me to ascertain that with the information I handle at this time.
20140310 20:28:41< shadowm> Also, I don't know if this is because of the paste site you used, but we use 4 columns-wide tabs for indentation in the C++, not spaces.
20140310 20:28:44< Dugi> I'll copy my changes into the git folder once that it downloads wesnoth, but it's downloading it with incredible speed of 100 KiB/s.
20140310 20:29:30< Dugi> I was using spaces, I'll have to change the settings in my IDE.
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20140310 20:35:35< shadowm> All that about not caring about a response being said, what if I try to rate an add-on that doesn't exist anymore?
20140310 20:36:03< aquileia> Dugi: If you clone the repo... it's 2,5 GB
20140310 20:36:39< shadowm> Or what if my input is invalid?
20140310 20:37:54< shadowm> Now, validation appears to be handled by this gui2::taddon_description::this_users_rating type whose declaration or definition I can't see for obvious reasons, but as I said before, addons_client is not supposed to depend on any GUI2 components besides the network_transmission dialog, which there only because there is no other option at this time.
20140310 20:38:38-!- spoffy [~spoffy@152.78.175.8] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 20:38:39< shadowm> My goal when designing the addons_client class was that it could eventually provide functionality to a lobby-based client, or even the command line (without a GUI).
20140310 20:38:53< Dugi> Finally set the indenting properly...
20140310 20:39:37< Aishiko_laptop> hi aquileia 
20140310 20:39:50< shadowm> Also note that all add-on methods save for install_addon() work with an add-on id as an argument to the method rather than embedded deep within another type passed to the method that doesn't actually _need_ to be associated to an add-on id.
20140310 20:39:53< aquileia> Aishiko_laptop: Hi!
20140310 20:40:35< shadowm> I find that this keeps the interface cleaner and easier to use (for users of addons_client).
20140310 20:40:37< aquileia> Has your EasyCoding task exploded to GSoC size? Mine is on the way
20140310 20:41:06< Dugi> gui2::taddon_description::this_users_rating is just a struct I defined there. I later learned that it should better go elsewhere, but I did not move that yet.
20140310 20:41:07< Aishiko_laptop> aquileia, not quite but its trying to!
20140310 20:42:16< aquileia> Aishiko_laptop, that's how they bind us to stay with the project: You're never done :p
20140310 20:43:06< shadowm> The curse of Wesnoth development.
20140310 20:43:07< Aishiko_laptop> right now I have 3 areas that are not fully implemented, the AI side of the house, the statistics, and the whiteboard (move planning), though that last one could be done if I could figure out how to take a map_location const& and get the unit info
20140310 20:43:14< Dugi> shadowm: I just found it convenient to be associated with an add-on id, I didn't know that there is a reason not to do it.
20140310 20:44:22< Aishiko_laptop> right now in planning mode it shows only the team cost and well I've hit a brick wall with my understanding of the code, I'm considering submitting what I have and then listing the new bug as a to be fixed
20140310 20:45:18< aquileia> Aishiko_laptop: And I haven't even validated the first widget out of three... that are only preliminary to implement a GUI dialog... for thefeature I really wanted to work on!
20140310 20:45:42< shadowm> aquileia: You are making widgets, I heard?
20140310 20:45:48< aquileia> Aishiko_laptop: Submitting a patch seems a good idea
20140310 20:46:10-!- trademark [~trademark@nsg93-8-88-175-59-164.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
20140310 20:46:12< aquileia> shadowm: Yes, that's the reason I asked about all the GUI stuff
20140310 20:46:13< Aishiko_laptop> its funny, this last step is to modify the image with the proper gold cost, easy to do if I can get the unit recall cost..... grrrr
20140310 20:46:54< shadowm> aquileia: If you make a GUI2 multiline textbox widget it'll be like a dream come true to me.
20140310 20:47:24< shadowm> And all WML coders everywhere.
20140310 20:47:31< aquileia> So... a textbox that accepts \n and has space for multiple lines?
20140310 20:47:55< aquileia> That might be easier than my numbox!
20140310 20:48:03< shadowm> Yeah, and that can handle multiline behavior (scrolling, cursor positioning, etc.).
20140310 20:48:36< shadowm> For example, bug #21755 would benefit from such a thing: https://gna.org/bugs/?21755
20140310 20:48:41< aquileia> I hadn't thought of scrolling... hmm
20140310 20:49:15< aquileia> but cursor positioning should be fine
20140310 20:50:49< shadowm> I don't know, I've only seen the code behind the GUI1 textbox, and it's very overwhelming.
20140310 20:51:10< aquileia> shadowm: I won't put it on my todo list, but I can keep it in mind
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20140310 20:51:45< aquileia> I first want to get YAMG up and running
20140310 20:52:22< aquileia> and I don't need a multiline box for that, so it's no priority
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20140310 20:57:53< Aishiko_laptop> new changes to recall dialog http://www.tiikoni.com/tis/view/?id=720678a  and the current bug it introduces =( http://www.tiikoni.com/tis/view/?id=9aae60d  at the moment that is!
20140310 20:58:58< shadowm> Hm, that looks much better than having a separate column.
20140310 20:59:16< shadowm> It's also consistent with the Recruit dialog.
20140310 20:59:18< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, I broke the dialog at least once doing that
20140310 21:00:23< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, with the exception of the colour coding of the costs in relation to the current team recall cost =)  I thought that a nice touch so at a glance you know if unit X is more less or equal to the default team cost
20140310 21:00:38< zookeeper> right, i didn't even think of the cost needing to be shown there.
20140310 21:01:11< Aishiko_laptop> however I don't like the bug with the display that is shown in the second link (the recall costs are the same as in the first link) 
20140310 21:01:19< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: But instead of using #fff white for the default/team cost display, why not just leave the color unspecified? #fff is noticably brighter than #d9d9d9 (the standard text color, used for the unit types) in the screenshot.
20140310 21:01:50< shadowm> Or it is for me, anyway. Your vision (and monitor) may vary.
20140310 21:02:06< zookeeper> i think that there ought to be some way to make mainline not show that "20 Gold" all over every recall dialog ever
20140310 21:02:43< Aishiko_laptop> zookeeper, one step at a time please!
20140310 21:03:31< shadowm> I don't know, it works fine as a reminder for newbies or people who in general don't realize that you can save gold in some cases (Horsemen, Gryphon Riders).
20140310 21:03:32< Aishiko_laptop> I'll put in some conditionals to determine if it needs to be shown later
20140310 21:03:56< zookeeper> shadowm, i guess
20140310 21:03:56< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, by recruiting a new one versus recalling?
20140310 21:04:20< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: Yes, Horsemen are more expensive to recruit than to recall.
20140310 21:04:29< zookeeper> idea: show the default recall cost somewhere in the side, and show the per-unit cost only on units which differ from the default
20140310 21:05:00< shadowm> And recalling has the added benefit that you get to choose the unit traits... took me years to realize that.
20140310 21:05:05< aquileia> zookeeper: Aishiko_laptop had that idea before
20140310 21:05:05< Aishiko_laptop> I recalled a peasant just so I could level him up and see the options when I wasn't thinking about hitting profile
20140310 21:05:37< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, these days I tend to recruit the loyal and close to leveling up ones
20140310 21:06:18< shadowm> Oh well, HttT has lots of loyals, it's rather ludicrous. Most other campaigns don't.
20140310 21:06:57< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, like all those merpeople?
20140310 21:07:09< shadowm> I guess it works in a way since Konrad is supposed to be a charismatic leader?
20140310 21:07:36< Aishiko_laptop> and in the ones that spring to mind he saves them in some way
20140310 21:07:51< zookeeper> nothing says "charismatic leader" quite like not having a clue about anything
20140310 21:08:17< aquileia> really? I remember two elves just saying "It's dangerous out ther, have some help"
20140310 21:08:23< Aishiko_laptop> but then again better the leader like that then the one that enslaves you =P
20140310 21:08:25< shadowm> Two random loyal elves join you in Crossroads only because they want to warn you about the orcs, yes.
20140310 21:09:09< shadowm> Whence they come and how they know about the orcs, who knows.
20140310 21:09:30< shadowm> Okay, I'll stop now before this turns into another of my hour-long rants about HttT.
20140310 21:09:31< Aishiko_laptop> bugger!
20140310 21:09:56-!- mindblank [~mindblank@129-2-129-228.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140310 21:10:13< Aishiko_laptop> they defected from the orc army!! tired of being scullery maids!
20140310 21:10:41< shadowm> The tl;dr version is that HttT's age shows in that it's (hopefully) deliberately cheesy where other campaigns are completely serious.
20140310 21:11:04< zookeeper> ahah.
20140310 21:11:09< zookeeper> sure, sure :>A
20140310 21:11:12< zookeeper> -A
20140310 21:11:18< shadowm> "Other campaigns" doesn't include NR.
20140310 21:11:54< Nostromus> ls
20140310 21:11:56< zookeeper> i don't know which ones it'd include, given your criteria :p
20140310 21:12:16< shadowm> Every other mainline campaign.
20140310 21:12:58< zookeeper> i... what
20140310 21:14:05-!- werlley [~werlley@179.124.130.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20140310 21:16:14< Aishiko_laptop> zookeeper, is there a way to take a map_location and retrieve the unit that at it?  the only way I know how to do that is with unit from the resources::units stack
20140310 21:16:35< zookeeper> i don't do (wesnoth) c++, sorry
20140310 21:17:09< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: That is the way.
20140310 21:18:52< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, it is?  brb
20140310 21:19:12< aquileia> shadowm: Do we have syntax highlighting files other than emacs and vim in the repo?
20140310 21:19:21< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: Yes, unit_map::find() either takes a size_t argument or a map_location.
20140310 21:19:51< shadowm> aquileia: No idea, I don't think so.
20140310 21:19:51< aquileia> You mentioned kate, but I can't find it
20140310 21:20:06< shadowm> aquileia: Yeah, I maintain the kate highlighting schema externally.
20140310 21:21:06< shadowm> I... I really should get around to upstreaming some of my changes one of these days... :\
20140310 21:21:08< aquileia> ah, ok. Then I'll make a patch for these two. Perhaps lipkab might test whether it breaks vim...
20140310 21:22:31< spoffy> Anyone got any experience playing with trademark's Neev library?
20140310 21:22:44< spoffy> Can't get the examples to connect properly.
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20140310 21:30:00< iceiceice> thunderstruck: do you know what's up with the unit tests for mp_connect?
20140310 21:30:41< thunderstruck> iceiceice: yeah, I haven't fixed them yet.
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20140310 21:31:20< iceiceice> ok... i looked at it, i thought maybe it was loading default era when it was meant to load from a test era or something? but i guess also that doesn't help things
20140310 21:31:48< iceiceice> if you are thinking about it i guess i wont think about it further
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20140310 21:35:03< shadowm> iceiceice: You know, without a nickserv account you are also subject to impersonation here on IRC.
20140310 21:35:22< iceiceice> how do i set that up again?
20140310 21:35:37< shadowm> Actully, there's an iceiceice account registered from 2012. Is that you?
20140310 21:35:43< iceiceice> i dont think so
20140310 21:35:58< iceiceice> yeah that predates me
20140310 21:35:59-!- Aishiko_laptop_ is now known as Aishiko_laptop
20140310 21:36:28< shadowm> The instructions to register a nickserv account are at http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup, but since the account already exists and is unused you will first have to ask in #freenode for network staff to drop it.
20140310 21:36:41< Aishiko_laptop> iceiceice, is an impersonator!!! gasp!
20140310 21:37:19< Aishiko_laptop> they are pretty nice about it too especially if its not been logged into for a long time
20140310 21:37:44 * Aishiko_laptop trys to whistle innocently
20140310 21:38:17< iceiceice> i guess i should actually do something about it since the iceiceice3 incident...
20140310 21:38:29< iceiceice> ok thx
20140310 21:38:52< aquileia> shadowm: Well, I don't think anybody would notice if there was an impersonator: Right now our iceiceice is 'impersonating' the old one, and you didn't notice before
20140310 21:39:37< shadowm> aquileia: Right, because _we_ didn't have an iceiceice before.
20140310 21:39:51< shadowm> If he started talking weird I would probably notice, though.
20140310 21:41:13-!- Nostromus is now known as Nostromus_
20140310 21:41:30< iceiceice> yeah i have some characteristic speech patterns, i bet you would be able to tell if it wasnt me ;)
20140310 21:42:03< aquileia> An impersonator could read the logs
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20140310 21:44:21< shadowm> The impersonator could be a sophisticated chatter bot!
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20140310 21:46:44< iceiceice> y i guess all you have to do is make a sophisticated chatter bot that impersonates you
20140310 21:46:56< iceiceice> and even better, periodically makes commits that seem productive
20140310 21:47:06< iceiceice> GSoC candidates take note, you could have the summer off! ;)
20140310 21:55:46< thunderstruck> iceiceice: I didn't really look at it. I have very little time now, so I probably won't fix it until Easter holidays.
20140310 21:56:00 * Aishiko_laptop would rather work and ensure she 1) is actually productive and learning 2) getting paid
20140310 21:56:53< iceiceice> thunderstruck: ok
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20140310 22:01:31< aquileia> mordante: The matrix widget is only used in debug_clock, it's missing in GUIToolkitWML and the comments aren't that comprehensive... what's the difference to grid or pane?
20140310 22:02:59< aquileia> lipkab: It'd be nice if you could test whether my patch (to enable GUI tag highlighting) breaks vim
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20140310 22:37:54< timotei> Ivanovic: http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15820-starcraft/ :D
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20140310 22:43:47< Aishiko_laptop> I have const map_location* but I need map_location& or is it the other way around, but I'm  much closer to getting it to work for all the user side stuff
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20140310 22:47:23< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: Uh, constness, taking pointers...?
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20140310 22:48:05< shadowm> The public unit map isn't a const pointer, so the non-const find method should give you non-const stuff.
20140310 22:48:08< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, pretty much and both are consts  only one one has it before the var-type and the other after it
20140310 22:48:26< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, hmmm that gives me an idea
20140310 22:49:02< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: const T& foo and const T& foo are equivalent in C++.
20140310 22:49:12< shadowm> Er, I mean const T& foo and T const& foo.
20140310 22:49:44< Ivanovic> timotei: i know
20140310 22:49:44< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, I thought so too but, I get this funny error when I send one to the other
20140310 22:50:12< shadowm> The latter style is more general and less ambiguous in situations like const T* foo vs. const T* const foo, though, but it's just a matter of style and we tend to use both in Wesnoth.
20140310 22:51:56< Aishiko_laptop> http://pastebin.com/q0X4gBS3
20140310 22:52:11< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, thats the error set I'm getting
20140310 22:52:55< shadowm> If I have T* foo, const T& bar = *foo.
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20140310 22:54:12< shadowm> That's just dereferencing the pointer.
20140310 22:56:36< Aishiko_laptop> I see, I like pointers and I hate pointers  (mostly because they are still kind of new to me)
20140310 22:56:56< shadowm> Oh yeah, you absolutely must make sure it's not NULL first.
20140310 22:57:16< Aishiko_laptop> thats taken care of =)
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20140310 23:07:41< Aishiko_laptop> though its weird, I take the input var which is the same type as the function I'm trying to call requires and it  says, it's referenced?  sorry I'm still a little fuzzy on the details
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20140310 23:10:16< Aishiko_laptop> I really wish we'd spend some real time on pointers
20140310 23:10:28< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: T& foo is a reference of type T, which for most intents and purposes behaves like the actual thing rather than a pointer.
20140310 23:10:54< shadowm> Of course, internally references may be implemented with pointers, but you aren't supposed to look at those details too closely.
20140310 23:11:26< Aishiko_laptop> right I get that, but the T* is new to me
20140310 23:11:40< shadowm> That's a pointer of type T.
20140310 23:12:00< Aishiko_laptop> so they are both pointers but different types of pointers?
20140310 23:12:30< shadowm> No, pointers are one thing, and references are another.
20140310 23:12:50< shadowm> It is feasible (but useless), for example, to have a reference to a pointer, e.g. T*& foo.
20140310 23:12:55< Aishiko_laptop> Okay I think I'm getting it, its expecting a ref but getting a pointer?
20140310 23:13:28< shadowm> What you have there is a pointer, right? map_location*.
20140310 23:14:08< shadowm> The method you want to call wants a reference, and since as I said references behave like the actual thing ( T instead of T& or T* ), you can just dereference the pointer (*foo) and take a reference to that.
20140310 23:15:01< Aishiko_laptop> actually in the function declaration has (const map_location& hex)  and I'm trying to send hex because the receiving function has (const map_location &loc)
20140310 23:15:34< Aishiko_laptop> alright
20140310 23:15:59< shadowm> The names in the method declaration are only relevant as documentation, and const T& foo and const T &foo are the same thing, different styles.
20140310 23:17:04 * shadowm off for a while.
20140310 23:17:39< Aishiko_laptop> thank you shadowm \
20140310 23:18:12< shadowm> (const T* foo and const T *foo are also the same thing, although the latter is considered more correct in some circles because it's consistent with declarations like this: { char *var1, *var2, *var3; }
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20140310 23:33:24< Soliton> a pointer to pointer or reference to pointer are not useless. you need them when you want to change the pointer itself not what it points to.
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20140310 23:43:31< shadowm> *usually useless
20140310 23:44:37< shadowm> It's not something I've seen done very often without using double indirection.
20140310 23:46:05< shadowm> Double indirection being pointers to pointers, I was specifically talking about references to pointers.
20140310 23:47:38< Soliton> yeah, i guess pointer to pointer is much more common. since if you're already using pointers...
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--- Log closed Tue Mar 11 00:00:57 2014