--- Log opened Fri Mar 14 00:00:35 2014
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20140314 00:26:41< Aishiko_laptop> _8680_,  are you around? if so could you give me your opinion on this commit message? http://pastebin.com/nu3V1JBu
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20140314 00:29:44< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: First, the summary line (first line) should be in Sentence case, not Title Case, and there should be only one line between the summary and the rest of the message, not two.
20140314 00:30:50< shadowm> This is just personal preference: I also generally prefer to describe what's being done rather than the describe what the patch does, e.g. "Fix this" instead of "Fixes this".
20140314 00:30:51< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, ohh I could have sworn I was told to use Title \n\n fulll summary format
20140314 00:31:22< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: Yes, sure, but what does "foo\n\nbar" actually look like? \n is a line break, not a empty line.
20140314 00:32:05< shadowm> Also, I prefer describing patches using paragraphs, not lists, except when lists are absolutely required.
20140314 00:32:58< shadowm> "Corrects a few whitespace/coding convention issues." <- Sounds like that should be either a separate patch or integrated into the series with rebase -i.
20140314 00:33:51< shadowm> Now, this patch's description intrigues me. What's this about "unit 'level' recall costs" and "changes recall_cost to unit_recall_cost"?
20140314 00:34:03< Aishiko_laptop> the wesnoth git guide that if there were 1 or 2 minor white space fixes that they shouldn't be a seperate patch, which is why I didn't create one for them
20140314 00:34:25< _8680_> I support shadowm’s comments.
20140314 00:34:28< shadowm> Is that the guide iceiceice wrote?
20140314 00:35:04< Aishiko_laptop> I was using recall_cost for the unit level, I changed it to unit_recall_cost so that it wouldn't get confused with recall_cost.
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20140314 00:35:24< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, I'm not sure who wrote it, 
20140314 00:35:31< Aishiko_laptop> I don't recall seeing a name on it
20140314 00:35:33< shadowm> What do you mean with unit level? The unit's level and recall costs are unrelated to each ther.
20140314 00:35:51< Aishiko_laptop> level as in at the unit level not the team level
20140314 00:35:51< _8680_> The message body seems rather spare to me.
20140314 00:36:38< shadowm> Oh, you mean at the unit class' level, not the unit's level attribute (which is a thing, L0 units, L1 units, etc.).
20140314 00:36:46< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, yes it was  by iceiceice
20140314 00:37:11< _8680_> From what I gather from those sentences, those changes seem separate enough to me that I’d make each sentence a separate commit, but I don’t know the project policy on that.
20140314 00:37:15< Aishiko_laptop> correct!  There is likely a better phrasing
20140314 00:37:29< shadowm> See, that could have been worded better -- e.g., "Fix recall cost specification for singular units" or "Fix recall costs for single unit instances".
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20140314 00:38:37< shadowm> _8680_: It depends on the diff, really, because the patch description isn't clear enough without seeing the code -- it might be just a enumeration vs. description style issue.
20140314 00:39:02< _8680_> Also, “"Fix this" instead of "Fixes this"” isn’t just shadowm’s personal preference, its how the Git book says to write commit messages.
20140314 00:39:09< shadowm> Which is why I said I prefer paragraphs instead of lists unless it really merits a list.
20140314 00:39:32< Aishiko_laptop> _8680_, really?  I sort of took passing a recall cost on to the next scenario as part of it working properly as well as keeping costs set by the scenario writer for a particular unit.
20140314 00:39:33< _8680_> s/its how/it’s how/
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20140314 00:40:21< Aishiko_laptop> lines should be limited to I think I hear 72 spaces wide
20140314 00:40:28< shadowm> Yes.
20140314 00:40:58< _8680_> Hm, okay. Yes, from what I can tell without seeing the changes, I would say that sentences three and four should be the same commit.
20140314 00:41:24< shadowm> If you run `git log --author=shadowm` you'll see how I tend to write my own commit mesages.
20140314 00:43:33< shadowm> (I do admit I tend to stretch the 72 chars limit to 80 depending on my mood, because I already have twitter for when I want to play the synonyms and abbreviations game.)
20140314 00:43:36< Aishiko_laptop> ohhh
20140314 00:45:01< shadowm> And you can tell when I am unsure about what I'm doing when it results in unusual message-length:diff-size ratios like in commit 9a381946433e259d2097b6d36e0ee81bc7ce05f3 .
20140314 00:45:34< Aishiko_laptop> _8680_, the keeping a defined one is only like 3 or 4 lines of code.
20140314 00:45:46< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: Anyway, are you busy? Because I just came up with another border case for recall_cost you might want to decide upon/check.
20140314 00:45:58< _8680_> There’s no limit on vertical space, so why would one need to go over the limit on horizontal space to avoid “play[ing] the synonyms and abbreviations game”?
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20140314 00:46:18< _8680_> Unless one uses words that are individually over the limit…
20140314 00:46:27< shadowm> _8680_: I have exactly one < 80 chars line to tell people why they should care about my commit.
20140314 00:46:52< shadowm> Most people won't look at the full message if the summary isn't enticing/alarming enough.
20140314 00:46:55< _8680_> Oh, this is about the summary line. I thought this was about the message body; my apologies.
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20140314 00:49:47< _8680_> I don’t remember hearing of a 72-character limit on the summary line.
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20140314 00:50:24< _8680_> I’ve heard 80 from you (with subsequent denial that that’s policy), and 50 from the book, but not 72.
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20140314 00:51:48< Aishiko_laptop> hi sachith500 
20140314 00:52:01< sachith500> hey Aishiko_laptop
20140314 00:52:02< Aishiko_laptop> was I the only one to get DCed?
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20140314 00:54:55< Aishiko_laptop> _8680_, I was talking about the message body
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20140314 01:02:00< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: Did you get my message?
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20140314 01:04:05< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, no unless it was about people not reading the commit message bodies
20140314 01:04:30< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: No, see the log: http://www.wesnoth.org/irclogs/2014/03/%23wesnoth-dev.2014-03-14.log
20140314 01:05:26< shadowm> Scanning the logs for mentions is also a required dev habit. ;)
20140314 01:06:50< Aishiko_laptop> shadowm, OK but I don't see anything you said to me that I've missed,
20140314 01:07:48< shadowm> Aishiko_laptop: 20140314 00:45:46
20140314 01:08:26< shadowm> If you gave me an answer, it never made it through for the same reason you got disconnected.
20140314 01:09:28< Aishiko_laptop> ohhh you never got the answer now I understand!  "not too busy I can look at it"
20140314 01:09:57< Aishiko_laptop> I wasn't looking for what wasn't there only what was.  I totally missed that my response didn't go through
20140314 01:10:22< shadowm> Erm, you know now that I think of it it shouldn't really concern you since it's part of the existing featureset.
20140314 01:10:39< Aishiko_laptop> what was it?
20140314 01:10:42< shadowm> Or actually, I guess it should, not sure.
20140314 01:11:04< Aishiko_laptop> ask away and I shall tell you if I thought of it or not
20140314 01:11:08< shadowm> Let's say I define a recall_cost for the [side]. You know how leaders are also normally defined inline in [side], right?
20140314 01:11:15< Aishiko_laptop> yes I know
20140314 01:11:27< shadowm> Is the leader's own recall_cost set to the side's recall_cost?
20140314 01:12:35< shadowm> Normally leaders get recalled for free for persistent sides, but I could demote the leader and replace it with someone else, so the question is more like whether the [side]'s recall_cost is excluded from the leader unit's configuration or not.
20140314 01:13:06< Aishiko_laptop> actually at the moment their recall costs are set to all of 0 if not defined or whatever the unit's type is.  with the move from recall_cost to unit_recall_cost that sort of confusion isn't around and unless that example happens its not an issue
20140314 01:13:44< shadowm> Um, what move from recall_cost to unit_recall_cost and why?
20140314 01:14:17< Aishiko_laptop> I'm sure if we went back to recall_cost and wanted the leader to have a different recall_cost then the side we'd have an issue
20140314 01:14:53< Aishiko_laptop> in my trouble shooting to find the issue I changed it to unit_recall_cost its in the commit message we were discussing
20140314 01:14:57< shadowm> Yeah, sure, unless the recall_cost attribute was erased before constructing the leader unit from the side definition.
20140314 01:15:55< Aishiko_laptop> is that how its done? the side first then all the units?
20140314 01:16:28< shadowm> I'd suspect there's a blacklist or whitelist of attributes from [side] that must not/must get passed in the definition of the leader unit atm, since most attributes in [side] don't make sense for [unit] and [unit] is designed to warn about unrecognized attributes.
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20140314 01:17:22< shadowm> If a coder really wanted to set the singular recall cost for the leader unit, they could either change it in an event later, or just define the leader unit explicitly in [unit] in [side].
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20140314 01:18:18< shadowm> I'm not sure whether I would prefer that to having a separate unit_recall_cost attribute instead.
20140314 01:18:26< Aishiko_laptop> so I should change back to recall_cost?  its not that hard to do I could do that in a few minutes
20140314 01:18:40< shadowm> But see, the rationale for the change to unit_recall_cost wasn't in the pastebin. :p
20140314 01:19:05< Aishiko_laptop> I'm willing to follow the will of the people in this =), and no but I can see how it should be
20140314 01:19:05< shadowm> It mentions the change is done, but not why.
20140314 01:19:42< shadowm> Anyway, I tend to defer to people like zookeeper when it comes to deciding on WML syntax.
20140314 01:19:43< Aishiko_laptop> OK need to add why something is changed,
20140314 01:19:58< Aishiko_laptop> we'll get him to weigh in on it then
20140314 01:20:20< shadowm> My proposal makes sense to me but perhaps less programmy people may find it contributes to some of the most confusing border cases of WML.
20140314 01:22:50< Aishiko_laptop> and I honestly don't know if its a good change or not, in the scenario files I've looked at I don't see Konrad for example ever defined within [unit] tags
20140314 01:23:57< Aishiko_laptop> it made sense to me, as it better defined that it was a unit's cost and not the side's cost at a glance
20140314 01:25:22< shadowm> I look at it the same way other standard attributes are handled. For example, hitpoints: you have the unit type's hitpoints attribute define the singular units' unmodified max_hitpoints, while the singular units' hitpoints are their current hitpoints and not their type's max.
20140314 01:25:52< shadowm> level is normally the unit type's level but it may be overridden on a per-unit basis as well.
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20140314 01:26:36< shadowm> Same goes for description, which is used to provide the statues in Caves of the Basilisk with custom sidebar mouse-over descriptions.
20140314 01:27:15< Aishiko_laptop> I mean its trivial to go back change them all to recall_cost and run another round of testing to make sure I didn't break anything else
20140314 01:27:32< Aishiko_laptop> or the intent of the patches like I did last time\
20140314 01:28:54< shadowm> Don't you have any other patches you might want to work on in parallel?
20140314 01:29:32< Aishiko_laptop> just in case this one is rejected?
20140314 01:29:56< shadowm> No, just to have more patches.
20140314 01:30:20< Aishiko_laptop> I have a few that I'm thinking about
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20140314 01:40:21< Aishiko_laptop> well I'll hold off for now and wait to talk to zookeeper and get his opinion on which way to go.
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20140314 03:07:04< sachith500_> hello everyone :)
20140314 03:11:09< goblinThing> hi.
20140314 03:12:20< goblinThing> (I'm inserting a chorus of "hi" here.)
20140314 03:18:47< Aishiko_laptop>  wb sachith500_ 
20140314 03:19:02< Aishiko_laptop> hi goblinThing you are a GSOC student too right?
20140314 03:21:06< goblinThing> Yup. I just submitted my proposal to google today... I hope I got it right. ^_^
20140314 03:22:01 * vultraz pins up Welcome banner
20140314 03:22:42< Aishiko_laptop> goblinThing, what is the project your applying for?  I seem to recall it was AI related
20140314 03:23:23< sachith500_> I wonder how many proposals BfW currently has
20140314 03:23:31< sachith500_> did you put yours up Aishiko_laptop ?
20140314 03:23:48< goblinThing> Ah, no. I'm not great with AI. I've tried to build a few before, but AI tend to be stubborn.
20140314 03:23:59< Aishiko_laptop> sachith500_, I will in the morning, I find that my work suffers when I start posting things after midnight
20140314 03:24:07< sachith500_> :D
20140314 03:24:14< Aishiko_laptop> goblinThing, then what did you apply for?
20140314 03:24:54< goblinThing> I've applied for two things: a campaign builder, and improvements on the map editor. 
20140314 03:25:15< goblinThing> They weren't on the list, but I'm somewhat confident I can pull both of them off.
20140314 03:26:08< goblinThing> Darnit. just saw something funny and spat my water all over the keyboard. -_-
20140314 03:26:09< vultraz> goblinThing: what improvements to the editor were you considering?
20140314 03:26:37< vultraz> just last development cycle it got a huge makeover
20140314 03:26:48< goblinThing> I'm hoping add further support for the units. 
20140314 03:27:01< goblinThing> ..and perhaps an event manager of some sort.
20140314 03:27:05< goblinThing> ...and items.
20140314 03:27:24< Aishiko_laptop> goblinThing, do a script that creates dying animations for the units that currently lack it =D
20140314 03:27:35< vultraz> [item]s or actual pickupable items?
20140314 03:28:05< goblinThing> @ashika: Hah! as cool as that would be, thats a bit beyond anything I have ever attempted.
20140314 03:29:09< goblinThing> @vultraz: I could do either, but working on the map editor, I'd do pickuppable items. Unless  devs have a strong feeling about that.
20140314 03:31:30< vultraz> goblinThing: if you added pickupable items an an event manager, the editor would basically become a campaign creator
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20140314 03:32:48< goblinThing> Mmm... Not really. An event manager would only create the [event] tags and event name, but not implement any actual code.
20140314 03:33:13< goblinThing> The user would still have to get at least shin-deep in WML.
20140314 03:33:39< goblinThing> Furthermore, it couldn't do campaign setup.
20140314 03:36:34< Aishiko_laptop> well goblinThing if you can add an event creator as well as a few other things you could turn the map editor into a campaign builder.
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20140314 03:38:07< goblinThing> I would be willing to try, but the devs have rejected the idea in the past.
20140314 03:38:31< Aishiko_laptop> ohhh I didn't know that
20140314 03:38:36< goblinThing> Something about keeping a bunch of half-completed, junk campaigns off the download list, I think.
20140314 03:39:05< goblinThing> I don't see any harm in making the map editor more versatile, though.
20140314 03:39:09< Aishiko_laptop> that sort of makes sense
20140314 03:39:14< vultraz> There isn't
20140314 03:39:20< vultraz> In fact, that's what happened in 1.11
20140314 03:39:43< goblinThing> Sorry, what was that?
20140314 03:40:41< vultraz> It went from only doing terrains to doing terrains, units (on different sides!), items, ToD, all saved to a cfg file
20140314 03:41:41< vultraz> scenario metadata
20140314 03:42:38< goblinThing> *double checked* If that's true, then it hasn't been implemented yet. You're a dev, yes? Are those functions complete? 
20140314 03:43:39< goblinThing> sorry, checks, not checked. That didn't make as much sense, in retrospect.
20140314 03:43:58< vultraz> Yes, I am a dev. fabi__ is the one to speak of about the editor, however, since he was the one revamping it
20140314 03:44:20< iceiceice> goblinThing: can't say exactly but they've been in 1.11 for a few versions now
20140314 03:44:34< vultraz> But it's *much* more feature-full in 1.12 than 1.10 
20140314 03:46:11< goblinThing> Yeah, I've seen the buttons, but they're all greyed out. I assumed that it was planned, but not fully finished. Perhaps mistakenly. 
20140314 03:47:02< vultraz> goblinThing: you need to set up a side 
20140314 03:47:09< goblinThing> Or maybe I just have the wrong versions. : p
20140314 03:47:14< vultraz> it's in one of the menus
20140314 03:47:22< goblinThing> Ah, I'll check that out now.
20140314 03:47:34< vultraz> I assume since you're planning on participating in GSoC you have the latest 1.11.11 version?
20140314 03:47:51< shadowm> You need to create or load a scenario (by default the editor starts on a new map, not scenario) and then create a side.
20140314 03:48:08< shadowm> Unless you load a scenario that has sides, of course.
20140314 03:48:26< goblinThing> Woah, found it. That's so cool! 
20140314 03:48:31< shadowm> vultraz: You mean 1.13.0-dev.
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20140314 03:49:03< vultraz> shadowm: he didn't say he was working from master
20140314 03:49:18< shadowm> Students are instructed to clone the repository and work on master.
20140314 03:49:23< goblinThing> Allright, I need to see if I can adopt another project.
20140314 03:51:25< shadowm> sachith500_: Mind if I edit the headers in your proposal page? They are kind of breaking the SummerOfCodeIdeas page a bit.
20140314 03:52:53< goblinThing> Mine? Yeah, go ahead. If you tell me what's happening to it, i'll go fix it.
20140314 03:53:20< sachith500_> sure go ahead
20140314 03:53:22< sachith500_> shadowm
20140314 03:53:33< sachith500_> I edited it with html a bit
20140314 03:53:38< sachith500_> before i got used to mediawiki
20140314 03:53:43< shadowm> goblinThing: No, I said sachith500_, which is why his nick is at the start of the line. :)
20140314 03:53:47< sachith500_> that's oprobably why
20140314 03:54:02< goblinThing> Oh, sorry.
20140314 03:54:21< shadowm> sachith500_: No, the issue was actually that the Deliverables section heading was a lower level heading than the Description heading, and thus was getting included in SummerOfCodeIdeas.
20140314 03:54:50< sachith500_> oh I just added that now
20140314 03:54:58< shadowm> I made both section headings the same level, and increased all headings' level by 1 (MW discourages using level 1 =headers=).
20140314 03:55:03< sachith500_> cool
20140314 03:55:13< sachith500_> was it level 1?
20140314 03:55:26< sachith500_> ahh
20140314 03:55:27< sachith500_> right
20140314 03:55:30< sachith500_> under description
20140314 03:55:34< sachith500_> thereby included
20140314 03:55:35< sachith500_> in it
20140314 03:55:36< sachith500_> got it
20140314 03:55:38< sachith500_> my bad, sorry
20140314 03:55:41< shadowm> Here you can see the changes: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=GSoC_sachith500_Proposal&diff=53749&oldid=53748
20140314 03:55:42< sachith500_> thanks for fixing it
20140314 03:55:54< shadowm> No problem.
20140314 03:55:54< sachith500_> :D
20140314 03:56:18< sachith500_> I'm in a lecture right now, so a bit scattered hehe
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20140314 04:05:55< goblinThing> Bye!
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20140314 06:53:02< aquileia> Nostromus: Well, that additional include isn't in master, but I added it in my patch so it'll soon be there.
20140314 06:56:17< aquileia> oh, and I plan to update the wiki page a little - I'll add information how I got it to work under VS2013
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20140314 07:24:54< aquileia> gfgtdf, Nostromus: Just FYI, clang nicely embeds itself into Visual Studio, you only need to change Configuration Properties --> General --> Platform Toolset to LLVM
20140314 07:26:50< aquileia> the problem for me was however that it thows a bunch of warnings and IIRC even errors
20140314 07:27:11-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.12 branch created | string+feature freeze active on 1.12 | 223 bugs, 353 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Alternate logs: http://wesnoth.debian.net | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20140314 07:41:45< Aishiko_laptop> hi zookeeper 
20140314 07:41:55< zookeeper> yo
20140314 07:42:15< Aishiko_laptop> we were having a discussion earlier and wanted your input =)
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20140314 07:43:36< Aishiko_laptop> its around 20140314 01:19:42 in the logs, I can wait.
20140314 07:43:45 * zookeeper reads
20140314 07:46:08< zookeeper> right, so recall_cost is both a singleunit and a side attribute so in a [side] tag it's ambiguous which one you're giving it to
20140314 07:48:03< zookeeper> humm
20140314 07:48:06< Aishiko_laptop> well it was in my fixing the broken patch, I changed it to unit_recall_cost.  the question is, do I change it back to recall_cost now that it works or leave it as unit_recall_cost for the rare time a leader is demoted to the recall list
20140314 07:49:41< Aishiko_laptop> since your the WML expert (that I know of) I figured I'd leave it up to you on what way to go.
20140314 07:49:54< zookeeper> yeah i'm busy thinking about it :P
20140314 07:50:29< Aishiko_laptop> take your time.  Its not a time sensitive thing (well not at the moment!)
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20140314 07:59:43< Aishiko_laptop> at the moment there is no tag for a particular unit to have its own defined recall cost
20140314 08:02:43< zookeeper> well i'm tempted to say just keep them both as recall_cost and treat recall_cost in a [side] as always being a side attribute, but...
20140314 08:03:07< zookeeper> having unit_recall_cost would cover that corner case, but at the cost of a somewhat obnoxious-seeming name
20140314 08:04:46< Aishiko_laptop> zookeeper, that's pretty much sums up the discussion, shadowm suggested that the corner case could be solved by some sort of WML event since a leader being demoted to the recall list is apparently a rare thing.
20140314 08:05:01< zookeeper> it sure is
20140314 08:05:29< Aishiko_laptop> and as I said earlier (before you came in) I'll do whatever you think is best
20140314 08:06:29< zookeeper> okay, i think i'll rather side with "keep both as recall_cost"
20140314 08:06:39< zookeeper> just need to explain the exception in SingleUnitWML
20140314 08:07:55< Aishiko_laptop> I can do that, infact I was going to update that page as soon as it gets accepted, but I don't want to jump the gun, say its there and then not have it in (at least right away)
20140314 08:09:16< Aishiko_laptop> what I think will happen in that case is when that unit gets demoted it'll take the recall_cost implemented in the [side] so it could end up being different in the next scenario.  
20140314 08:10:52< Aishiko_laptop> though in that case it does bring up an issue, if so defined it'll be applied to all units that don't have one defined and could mess with later costs, like a unit advances and has a non-team defined amount
20140314 08:11:53< zookeeper> are you saying that the [side]'s recall_cost will actually be applied to all single units as if they had had it in their SingleUnitWML, _not_ just looked up when a single unit without a defined recall_cost is being recalled?
20140314 08:12:46< Aishiko_laptop> zookeeper, I think so, I'd have to change it and check to see if that happens.
20140314 08:14:22< Aishiko_laptop> I think I should check it and see what happens.  if it does then I'll do something like change the name to recall_costs or costs_recall, something still short but different so it doesn't do that.   but first I should see what happens when its defined as recall_cost
20140314 08:17:25< zookeeper> yeah, it should definitely always use the side recall_cost if the unit hasn't been given one
20140314 08:17:32< zookeeper> regardless of past scenarios etc
20140314 08:18:25< Aishiko_laptop> I'll see what happens when its just recall_cost
20140314 08:19:29< zookeeper> it should be pretty straightforward really, just have no single unit recall_cost unless one is explicitly given, and in the recall dialog check if the unit has one and if not, use the side recall_cost if there is one in that scenario, and if not, fall back to the global default...
20140314 08:20:43< zookeeper> ...unless it's somehow difficult to have single unit attributes which don't always exist, in which case units would get a recall_cost=default or recall_cost=-1 or whatever as a default
20140314 08:21:04< Aishiko_laptop> zookeeper, they already do its set to 0
20140314 08:21:45< zookeeper> but doesn't that mean that i can't drop a single unit's recall cost to 0?
20140314 08:23:47< Aishiko_laptop> it does mean that
20140314 08:24:54< Aishiko_laptop> I can have it set to -1 if not defined, but the WML scenario overrides any defaults found in the unit config files
20140314 08:26:17< Aishiko_laptop> I figured it would be rare to have a 0 recall cost
20140314 08:26:56< zookeeper> i dunno, i think that might be very common in some RPG campaigns or whatnot, where you want recalling to be free
20140314 08:27:57< Aishiko_laptop> easy enough to fix (I think
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20140314 08:39:41< Aishiko_laptop> I'll do that after a nap, and thank you for the input, zookeeper .
20140314 08:42:34< zookeeper> cool
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20140314 12:06:34< sachith500> :D
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20140314 12:26:51< AI0867> I'm getting mail from gsoc, but the links to the actual proposals are broken
20140314 12:27:26< AI0867> they're formatted like /gsoc/proposal/review/org/google/gsoc2014/USERNAME/PROPOSALID
20140314 12:27:49< Ivanovic> that should be correct
20140314 12:28:04< Ivanovic> AI0867: but you can also just go to your dashboard
20140314 12:28:19< Ivanovic> and there select "Proposals"
20140314 12:28:26< AI0867> I know
20140314 12:28:33< AI0867> Ivanovic: the domain is missing
20140314 12:28:38< Ivanovic> right
20140314 12:28:39< AI0867> as is the protocol
20140314 12:28:56< Ivanovic> my head is still rather muddy thanks to not being fit...
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20140314 13:24:53< aquileia> 21:09 <zookeeper> i don't think i've even heard anyone plan on making one.
20140314 13:25:53< aquileia> Well, there was http://r.wesnoth.org/p493954 but it's on ice
20140314 13:27:01< aquileia> Though I wrote Captain Wrathbow a PM whether he might reconsider it if I offer to help
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20140314 13:34:14< zookeeper> well, sure
20140314 13:37:06< aquileia> I think it' make a superb campaign
20140314 13:37:40< aquileia> less cliché, diverse action, unusual task, ...
20140314 13:38:13< aquileia> s/ it' / it'd
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20140314 13:39:42< aquileia> However I'm not completely sure whether one would play khalifate or loyalists with a few khalifate allies
20140314 13:41:59< aquileia> It's tempting to see parallels between persia and the khalifate, but WINR and both ways would work
20140314 13:42:24< zookeeper> sure, it'd be a bit of a different storyline than most. but it's still just the basic idea in a few words.
20140314 13:43:10< aquileia> zookeeper: Actually it's a whole book only waiting to be transformed
20140314 13:44:22< aquileia> That means - story screens available in dozens of translations
20140314 13:45:35< aquileia> and no copyright issues
20140314 13:47:24< aquileia> except if there was a country where copyright holds even after 1600 years...
20140314 13:48:04< zookeeper> all that has relevance only if you're _not_ going to do any transformation but just try to turn the book into a wesnoth campaign 1:1
20140314 13:50:09< aquileia> I'm not totally sure whether you want to say "you on't have to bother with copyright" or "it'll be a lot more work than you think"
20140314 13:50:17< aquileia> *don't
20140314 13:50:49< aquileia> I don't say it's possible to rip off the story 1:1
20140314 13:51:12< aquileia> but I think there might be some passages in the book worth citing
20140314 13:52:18< aquileia> It's a lot of work to polish up a campaign idea to a full product, sure
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20140314 13:54:43< zookeeper> i can't see where you could place real-life book quotes in a wesnoth campaign
20140314 13:55:07< zookeeper> you can do it in the beginning of a movie or a game and there it might work to set the tone, but in-game that's just breaking the fourth wall IMO
20140314 13:56:04< aquileia> Well, it's not for me to decide, but I think there is potential
20140314 13:56:58< aquileia> after all UtBS does something similar
20140314 13:57:59< aquileia> that's actually a disadvantage of the idea - it's not that unique as one might think
20140314 13:58:20< aquileia> s/that/as
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20140314 13:59:09< zookeeper> what does UtBS quote?
20140314 13:59:51< aquileia> All UtBS story screens are later revealed as book quotes from Kaleh'a opus, so...
20140314 14:00:08< aquileia> s/Kaleh'a/Kaleh's
20140314 14:01:16< zookeeper> uh... we were talking about quoting a real book
20140314 14:04:01< aquileia> I'm no storywriter, so I on't really see the problems with passages like http://pastebin.com/S8zf5sdw  (of course with different names)
20140314 14:06:46< zookeeper> well i think it's pretty certain that no storywriter wants to be known for copying a story from another source and just changing names
20140314 14:08:32< aquileia> zookeeper: But I only wanted to throw in the existence of that idea, I'm not saying whether or how it will be done
20140314 14:09:56< zookeeper> sure, and i'm just saying that basing a story on an existing one isn't going to be all that much less work than just coming up with one from scratch, unless you want it to look like a rip-off.
20140314 14:10:40< zookeeper> that said, i think that basing the broad strokes of a story or even some details on history or some non-contemporary fiction would probably be a good idea a lot of the time
20140314 14:12:18< zookeeper> i myself find it really hard to come up with stories in any kind of detail, and simply ripping off ideas from elsewhere would probably work a whole lot better
20140314 14:13:14< zookeeper> it just needs to be done sparingly, like ripping off individual plot points or characters or twists
20140314 14:13:53< aquileia> but Anabasis has a whole lot to offer...
20140314 14:14:47< aquileia> It's astonishing how well it would lend itself to Wesnoth
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20140314 14:16:28< aquileia> In any case, i's far off my limits to discuss details of someone elses campaign
20140314 14:16:47< aquileia> especially if it's not even implemented yet
20140314 14:16:51< zookeeper> Goracore, btw, if you're interested in khalifate campaigns, then you might want to read the logs from the last hour.
20140314 14:17:33< aquileia> Goracore, zookeeper: Just in case http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Anabasis
20140314 14:18:22< Goracore> ah, alright *reads logs*
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20140314 14:51:07< aquileia> Is it normal that my Wesnoth debug build will be _extremely_ slow (e.g. significant delay for mouse over events on the main screen) or is it just Microsoft?
20140314 14:53:09< vultraz> wasn't that way for me
20140314 14:53:31< zookeeper> some debug build i tried some time ago was unbearably slow
20140314 14:53:32< zookeeper> (windows)
20140314 14:53:55< aquileia> ok, then it's probably windows specific - thanks
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20140314 14:57:16< Ivanovic> debug buils can also be significantly slower on other operating systems
20140314 14:57:19< Ivanovic> how much: no idea
20140314 14:57:26< Ivanovic> and yeah, it might be "unbearable slow"
20140314 14:58:15< moopli> but hey, loads of glitches are more obvious at low speed
20140314 14:58:24< moopli> silver lining :3
20140314 14:58:28< aquileia> it was - trying to open the editor resulted in a message that the process no longer responds - after 3 minutes
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20140314 14:59:18< aquileia> at least unplayable
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20140314 15:00:26< vultraz> huh
20140314 15:00:29< vultraz> never happened to me
20140314 15:00:58< tomreyn> RelWithDebInfo is the way to go (when you use cmake)
20140314 15:02:15< aquileia> and when you  don't?
20140314 15:03:07< aquileia> I'll have  a look if there are other configurations in the VC project file...
20140314 15:05:54< aquileia> Ah, yes there is: ReleaseDEBUG
20140314 15:06:09< Goracore> The plot of the Anabasis seems to be quite interesting. Though, i am afraid it will make the Khalifate look (too) similar to the orcs (constant fights between clans, etc). And there is already plenty of this stuff
20140314 15:07:22< Goracore> Personally, i like the idea of the Khalifate being a great southern union with strict borders which specializes on both trade and war
20140314 15:09:01< aquileia> IMHO a war of succession is quite different to rivalling chieftains, but...
20140314 15:11:42< aquileia> And it's not all about fighting, there are friendly encounters as well where the player can learn about their culture
20140314 15:12:51< aquileia> and... like I said: The role distribution isn't clear right now, the khalifate could play the greek army trying to get home
20140314 15:13:21< aquileia> That's something I hope to get an answer from Wrathbow
20140314 15:19:48< happygrue> When name changes were under debate, I suggested changing the name khalifate to something based on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine%E2%80%93Sasanian_wars
20140314 15:20:09< happygrue> eg "Wassanian" or something that was similar but clearly made up too
20140314 15:20:38< happygrue> but taking some things from vaguely related history while building a campaign seems a fair idea
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20140314 15:22:02< happygrue> Goracore: if you are interested in developing a khalifate campaign, I would talk to noy about what history he has developed
20140314 15:22:16< zookeeper> ideally the first campaign should really somehow tie them into the rest of the world and storyline
20140314 15:22:34< zookeeper> but then again if you ask me that's impossible in the first place, so... uh, good luck, i guess :p
20140314 15:22:37< happygrue> there is a lot that is written down in some form but is, I guess, not really "finished" and thus is not included in the game, so it's not as blank a slate as it looks now
20140314 15:22:40< happygrue> ;)
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20140314 15:29:18< aquileia> that would be an advantage of being on their territory - both player and character know equally much about them (next to nothing) and discover their culture on the way
20140314 15:31:16< aquileia> Being drawn into an inner conflict pushes you to interact, to try to understand them
20140314 15:31:51< aquileia> if you just battle anybody on your way, you're gonna die...
20140314 15:35:57< zookeeper> well, one could also make a campaign about a religious civil war in the wake of their spiritual awakening
20140314 15:36:06< zookeeper> i'd like to see the resulting controversy :>
20140314 15:37:00< aquileia> there are tons of possibilities for sure
20140314 15:37:23< aquileia> zookeeper: Why don't you write it? :p
20140314 15:37:45< zookeeper> well i don't want to be overly mean
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20140314 18:18:20< vorobeez> Crab_: hello, i put comment in document. Can you look at it? And i have more questions: what other important parts except 'village holding' can be? 
20140314 18:20:29< Crab_> vorobeez: hello. should we attack? should we retreat? should we recruit more low-defence high-offence units (e.g. mages) or more high-hp low-offence units? should we wait for our ally? (in campaign games where we have 2+ ais vs 1 player)
20140314 18:22:52< vorobeez> Crab_: Thank you, that makes sence. I think for my concept i need more concrete decisions. I will work to define their. 
20140314 18:23:08< Crab_> ok, good luck. and I'll answer to your comment in the doc now.
20140314 18:23:44< vorobeez> Crab_: thank you :)
20140314 18:24:49< Crab_> vorobeez: done. note that I'll not be around this weekend, until monday evening.
20140314 18:26:12< moopli> [inspiration strikes] not sure why this conversation inspired me,
20140314 18:26:19< vorobeez> Crab_: ok, i will put message in chat on this weekend if i will have some questions. (look in logs on monday please)
20140314 18:26:42< Crab_> will do
20140314 18:26:46< moopli> but i was trying to figure out how to get an AI to recognize defensible bits of terrain
20140314 18:26:50< moopli> so uh, thanks :P
20140314 18:26:57< moopli> figured it out
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20140314 18:37:49< aquileia> Hmm... it seems that the Release and ReleaseDEBUG configurations have to be fixed...
20140314 18:39:06< aquileia> They set the NDEBUG flag disabling asserts - and this is blocked by global.hpp
20140314 18:39:43< Crab_> moopli: good luck, then. ask questions if you'll have any.
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20140314 18:40:41< AI0867> aquileia: I think ivanovic recently patched our cmake projectfiles so he could build for pandora
20140314 18:41:23< aquileia> AI0867: But the VC files were left out it seems
20140314 18:43:26< aquileia> PreprocessorDefinitions="WIN32;NDEBUG;_WINDOWS;_CRT_SECURE_NO_WARNINGS;HAVE_PYTHON;USE_GZIP;NO_HAVE_FRIBIDI;NOMINMAX;_SCL_SECURE_NO_WARNINGS"
20140314 18:44:02< aquileia> Ivanovic, AI0867: Can I delete that flag?
20140314 18:44:44< aquileia> I mean - in my patch?
20140314 18:45:16< aquileia> I'll just do it locally, but before I screw something up in master I prefer to ask
20140314 18:45:31< Ivanovic> aquileia: i have done some magic so that it should not be set
20140314 18:45:38< Ivanovic> set at all in cmake
20140314 18:46:13< Ivanovic> check line 463ff in CMakeLists.txt
20140314 18:46:16< aquileia> but VC isn't cmake
20140314 18:46:40< aquileia> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/projectfiles/VC9/wesnoth.vcproj
20140314 18:46:43< Ivanovic> of course the VC files were left out, they are not a build system i can maintain!
20140314 18:47:00< aquileia> So it'll be fine if I change it?
20140314 18:47:06< Ivanovic> of course
20140314 18:47:15< Ivanovic> in fact you can and should make that one a separate diff
20140314 18:47:50< aquileia> ok
20140314 18:48:40< Ivanovic> AI0867: this was not just a patch for building on pandora but generic to release builds
20140314 18:48:46< aquileia> That's the second thing I had to change... VC seems to be rarely used
20140314 18:51:03< Ivanovic> aquileia: the number of people amongst our devs using windows is *really* limited
20140314 18:51:20< Ivanovic> so yeah, the VC project files and anything else required for building under windows are almost not maintained
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20140314 18:51:41< Ivanovic> once upon the time Crab_ fixed some stuff allowing the generation of visual studio project files with cmake
20140314 18:51:48< Ivanovic> no idea if that is still working though
20140314 18:52:50< aquileia> Ivanovic: Considering that it works pretty well
20140314 18:53:18< aquileia> not the cmake file, I have no idea about that
20140314 18:54:11< aquileia> But VC12 takes the old VC9 files and compiles without a problem - if you rebuild boost, that is
20140314 18:58:09< Ivanovic> IMO windows is a not too developer friendly plattform
20140314 18:58:30< Ivanovic> at least once you are used to how linux boxes handles includes and libraries
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20140314 19:13:00< aquileia> Ivanovic: But linux doesn't include comical relief... pastebin.com/Xmv29HZN
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20140314 19:42:13< aquileia> Hi lipkab, the Vim file should be fine as soon as the branch is merged
20140314 19:42:25< aquileia> Thanks again for your help
20140314 19:42:34< lipkab> No problem.
20140314 19:42:50< lipkab> I'll check the patch.
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20140314 19:45:26< aquileia> By the way, this time it applies to the original version
20140314 19:50:10< lipkab> aquileia: Do you want me to apply the patch now, or would you rather have it committed along with the other ones?
20140314 19:52:20< aquileia> I think it has to be ok, so I would just add it to the pull request. If you want to double-check, feel free to do so
20140314 19:53:05< lipkab> Okay.
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20140314 19:56:11< aquileia> For the future I learned to take little projects... I wouldn't have thought of things like syntax highlighing when starting a new widget...
20140314 19:57:36< lipkab> Yeah, you should try to get commit access before you start working on something big... I can tell that :P
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20140314 20:01:27< aquileia> lipkab: I prefer to do pull requests - no risk to ruin something in one command...
20140314 20:02:33< gfgtdf> you can also do pull request tand then merge them yourself 
20140314 20:02:45< gfgtdf> with commit access
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20140314 20:12:19< aquileia> gfgtdf: The difference is that I sometimes use -f commands, and once it replied I had no commit rights... I accidentally had used checkout remote before
20140314 20:12:44< aquileia> So not having the access is an additional protection
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20140314 20:30:57< aquileia> I assume a construct like get_text(...).insert_text(...) won't work?
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20140314 20:34:10< Aishiko_laptop> zookeeper, my concerns that using the recall_cost for the side would actually set a recall cost for units that don't have one defined appears to be unfounded with the tests I've run, so I should have the patch ready after dinner and will send it on up
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20140314 20:38:49< zookeeper> Aishiko_laptop, ok, great
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20140314 21:05:56< Aishiko_laptop> zookeeper, I did some further testing if its hard coded to -1 it never looks at unit config files, however it it looks at the config files and doesn't find it, it sets it to zero, I forgot about that, little issue
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20140314 21:18:50< irker780> wesnoth: Boldizsár Lipka wesnoth:master 821b009948d4 / src/ (controller_base.cpp mouse_handler_base.cpp mouse_handler_base.hpp): Support SDL2's mouse wheel event in mouse_handler_base. http://git.io/Wg7_Yg
20140314 21:18:50< irker780> wesnoth: Boldizsár Lipka wesnoth:master 2d54ec7acadd / src/mouse_handler_base.cpp: Wrap old SDL code in a preproc directive. http://git.io/Co5QtQ
20140314 21:18:50< irker780> wesnoth: Boldizsár Lipka wesnoth:master ec2af1d30d73 / src/widgets/ (slider.cpp slider.hpp): Support for SDL2's mouse wheel event in the GUI1 slider. http://git.io/XUrKtA
20140314 21:18:51< irker780> wesnoth: Boldizsár Lipka wesnoth:master 60945558a98c / src/widgets/slider.cpp: Wrap old SDL code in a preproc directive. http://git.io/uqv0rA
20140314 21:18:52< irker780> wesnoth: Boldizsár Lipka wesnoth:master 85e8c4527300 / src/widgets/scrollarea.cpp: Support for SDL2's mouse wheel event in the GUI1 scrollarea. http://git.io/ZrdgTw
20140314 21:18:54< irker780> wesnoth: Boldizsár Lipka wesnoth:master 5e96c47d2e25 / src/widgets/scrollbar.cpp: Support for SDL2's mouse wheel event in the GUI1 scrollbar. http://git.io/YaoMnA
20140314 21:18:56< irker780> wesnoth: Boldizsár Lipka wesnoth:master 133218ff7b0a / src/widgets/scrollbar.cpp: Wrap old SDL code in a preproc directive. http://git.io/R8Sasg
20140314 21:18:58< irker780> wesnoth: Boldizsár Lipka wesnoth:master ea3bd5655500 / src/mouse_handler_base.cpp: Switch vertical scrolling directions. http://git.io/fimnWA
20140314 21:19:00< irker780> wesnoth: Boldizsár Lipka wesnoth:master 8556d7a24ec5 / src/editor/palette/palette_manager.cpp: Support for SDL2's mousw wheel event in the palette manager. http://git.io/PB-bKQ
20140314 21:19:02< irker780> wesnoth: Boldizsár Lipka wesnoth:master 331813707771 / src/editor/palette/palette_manager.cpp: Wrap old SDL code in a preproc directive. http://git.io/QNRO9Q
20140314 21:19:04< irker780> wesnoth: Boldizsár Lipka wesnoth:master d26ac31b288e / src/editor/palette/palette_manager.cpp: Make a constant variable a reference. http://git.io/43DgRg
20140314 21:19:06< irker780> wesnoth: Boldizsár Lipka wesnoth:master 8c3c1dfb5ccc / src/gui/auxiliary/event/handler.cpp: Support for SDL2's mouse wheel event in GUI2. http://git.io/m9egGg
20140314 21:19:08< irker780> wesnoth: Boldizsár Lipka wesnoth:master 37c71008fe4f / src/gui/auxiliary/event/handler.cpp: Wrap old SDL code in a preproc directive. http://git.io/X0qshQ
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20140314 22:00:41< mattsc> shadowm: hi - I'm traveling for another week, but will be in contact on and off, although generally not with a lot of time (and won't have time to read up on the logs until Monday or Tuesday).
20140314 22:02:14< mattsc> shadowm: I put in the code producing that error message recently; I figured it's better than the MAI just silently failing, as some of the failure modes are pretty subtle.  So I take it you don't have a savegame from just before that happened?  Or a screenshot of the situation or something?
20140314 22:03:16< mattsc> The error code is this, btw: "E_ATTACKER_AND_DEFENDER_NOT_ADJACENT = 1010" which isn't good for trying to execute an attack.  :P
20140314 22:05:40< shadowm> Why does the AI code like using opaque error codes? -.-
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20140314 22:07:14< mattsc> I don't know, I'm just using what's provided.
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20140314 22:09:18< shadowm> As I said, neither the save nor the scenario are available yet, so I'll retry at a later time.
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20140314 22:22:18< mattsc> shadowm: okay.  When I have some time, I'll check out that part of the MAI code and if I can see anything that might be causing this.
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20140314 22:23:20< shadowm> I was using the patrol MAI, if it helps.
20140314 22:24:28< shadowm> I'm not sure why I'd get something like that if it's not supposed to attack unless it gets blocked by enemy units IIUC, and there were none around the assigned patrol units.
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20140314 22:25:48< mattsc> Yeah, the two last lines tell me that.  And I have no idea why it's happening either, I bet it's some combination of things that I didn't think of when I wrote this.
20140314 22:33:51< Coffee_irc>  if I have a bug workaround and a proper bug fix is to come later in 1.13, should I commit the workaround for 1.12? (for a minor bug)
20140314 22:34:17< shadowm> Why not!?
20140314 22:34:29< Coffee_irc> shadowm: ok :)
20140314 22:34:49< shadowm> Coffee_irc: Your post in TS is worded a little confusingly.
20140314 22:35:00< Coffee_irc> TS?
20140314 22:35:09< shadowm> "In addition to what AI said, in 1.11(development) and the upcoming 1.12 version of Wesnoth there have been several changes."
20140314 22:35:25< shadowm> Yes, but when I asked you about it, you said animation frames were not precached, therefore that's not in 1.12.
20140314 22:35:30< Coffee_irc> ok I'll slash instead of and the 2
20140314 22:35:53< Coffee_irc> I was referring to the WML loading (which before hogged memory believe it or not)
20140314 22:36:14< shadowm> I experience significant lag on first-time image loading.
20140314 22:36:30< shadowm> This is more important than the WML loading, which does not affect gameplay.
20140314 22:36:43< Coffee_irc> I have a fast SSD so I don't see it
20140314 22:36:44-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: Ciao]
20140314 22:36:56< shadowm> Well, that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist!
20140314 22:37:02< Coffee_irc> unlikely but he could be running into a RAM issue
20140314 22:37:11< Coffee_irc> where he doesn't have enough RAM dedicated to the task
20140314 22:37:12< shadowm> I said I experience that too.
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20140314 22:37:25< shadowm> And I have 16 GiB of RAM, most of the time over 80% available.
20140314 22:37:40< Coffee_irc> well, your OS could still be loading from disk
20140314 22:37:51< shadowm> Of course it is! That's the point.
20140314 22:37:54< Coffee_irc> not all RAM is used for caching by some kernels
20140314 22:38:07< shadowm> Linux can't know what to cache if it's not requested/accessed first.
20140314 22:38:15< Coffee_irc> sometimes it uses "swap-space"
20140314 22:38:39< shadowm> Wesnoth lags when loading images that exist neither in its own internal image cache, or in the system's inode cache.
20140314 22:38:57< Coffee_irc> well, changing the animation inmages to be progressive changes the loading a bit
20140314 22:39:06< Coffee_irc> it is _slightly_ more efficient
20140314 22:39:09< shadowm> This happens for every animation and variation thereof played for the first time and makes the game seem less fluid.
20140314 22:39:44< Coffee_irc> I agree the main problem is the loading of multiple small image files
20140314 22:39:54< shadowm> The "variation thereof" part is important because the user can't know there's a difference between hitting/missing attack animations.
20140314 22:40:19< shadowm> Loading multiple small image files is only part of the problem.
20140314 22:40:26< Coffee_irc> well...
20140314 22:40:34< shadowm> Make a sufficiently complex animations and the issue will happen with or without spritesheets.
20140314 22:40:36< Coffee_irc> it could be loaded in parallel in the background
20140314 22:40:51< Coffee_irc> as other things load processor-wise
20140314 22:41:26< shadowm> I really think a good enough solution would be to force image frames to enter the cache as soon as unit types are built during the loadscreen stage.
20140314 22:41:36< Coffee_irc> I agree
20140314 22:41:47< Coffee_irc> this is however dependent on the graphics card
20140314 22:41:54< shadowm> Uh- what?
20140314 22:42:19< Coffee_irc> to force the graphics card to cache these images properly for fast loading
20140314 22:42:31< Coffee_irc> or in the main RAM
20140314 22:42:37< shadowm> Okay, maybe with SDL 2.0, but right now we are doing everything in software surfaces in the system's virtual memory.
20140314 22:42:53< Coffee_irc> the computer decides which things go into cache and which stay on disk
20140314 22:43:15< Coffee_irc> the code can help the computer get this right, but that might rely on special calls for different hardware
20140314 22:43:23< Coffee_irc> or a better library to call as you say
20140314 22:43:37< shadowm> When I last said cache I was thinking of Wesnoth's image cache.
20140314 22:44:07< shadowm> Then again, that might not be a good idea for larger add-ons since the cache currently has "unlimited" size.
20140314 22:44:14< Coffee_irc> I figure this is potentially a GSoC issue ;)
20140314 22:44:39< Coffee_irc> for spritesheets to solve
20140314 22:44:50< shadowm> We don't have a "change image cache implementation/optimize unit animations (and terrain builder!) caching" project yet.
20140314 22:45:32< Coffee_irc> isn't this part of the spritesheet proposal?
20140314 22:45:34< shadowm> It's hard to say whether this should be part of the spritesheets project since throwing spritesheets into the mix only shifts the load distribution.
20140314 22:46:06< shadowm> One animation could depend upon ten different spritesheets and trigger the issue as well.
20140314 22:46:09< aquileia> mordante: please review https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/117
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20140314 22:47:06< shadowm> Unless the spritesheets are guaranteed to be precached, but that brings me back to the issue with potential resource hog add-ons.
20140314 22:47:27< Coffee_irc> shadowm: then the problem is similar to 2d desktop/window manager acceleration
20140314 22:47:40< Coffee_irc> with multiple different windows and widgets
20140314 22:48:21< shadowm> Hm, no, not sure how it's similar to those. Window contents are stored in VRAM or system VM, not on disk.
20140314 22:49:21< Coffee_irc> well, if we store spritesheets and use texture coordinates, the graphics cards have ways inbuilt now to optimize the loading speed
20140314 22:49:33< Coffee_irc> as a result of years of desktop optimizations
20140314 22:49:42< Coffee_irc> and for other games
20140314 22:49:55< shadowm> What if the spritesheets are ridiculously huge?
20140314 22:50:32< aquileia> shadowm: Thinking of th dragon by cephalo?
20140314 22:50:33< Coffee_irc> other games load fine with multiple different textures (shooter games, etc.)
20140314 22:50:52< Coffee_irc> and some are very detailed (much more than we could need)
20140314 22:50:54< shadowm> aquileia: I don't know, I have never seen it? I'm just thinking of the worst-case situation here.
20140314 22:51:20< aquileia> 45 MB for one unit, that's worst-case right now
20140314 22:51:31< shadowm> Coffee_irc: That does make this depend on the SDL 2.0 port, however.
20140314 22:51:41< Coffee_irc> pretty much
20140314 22:52:23< shadowm> Anyway, "some people" -- I really doubt given my system specs it's just "some" people.
20140314 22:52:29< Coffee_irc> loading in parallel seemed to work for me with a different project in the past
20140314 22:52:46< Coffee_irc> even from a hard drive
20140314 22:52:53< aquileia> shadowm: If you pre-render in 3D like he did, you get fluid motions - with 100+ frames per animation
20140314 22:53:27< shadowm> 7200 rpm HDD on 6 Gb/s SATA, 16 GiB of RAM, Intel Core i7 up to 3.9 GHz.
20140314 22:54:05< Coffee_irc> shadowm: below the minimum specs for wesnoth I'm sorry :P
20140314 22:55:06< shadowm> That's not as funny as you think, most people have far lower specs.
20140314 22:55:33< shadowm> And we still release versions from time to time labeled as production/"stable" software.
20140314 22:56:12< zookeeper> what the heck is the actual issue being discussed?
20140314 22:56:24< shadowm> aquileia: I don't think rendering 3D animations would be a good idea, I'd expect that to clash horribly with our animation style.
20140314 22:57:20< shadowm> We tend to use a lower animation framerate expecting most intermediate frames to be interpolated by the observer and not the artist.
20140314 22:57:20< Coffee_irc> zookeeper: appraently some people see jerky animations on first load
20140314 22:57:50< Coffee_irc> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&p=568154#p568154
20140314 22:57:59< stikonas_> Chinese translators in credits don't like giving real names :D. I was told that the name  written in hieroglyphs (actually the only one) means something like CoolInternetBoy...
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20140314 22:58:08< zookeeper> Coffee_irc, i mean the thing about textures and sizes and hardware
20140314 22:58:09< Coffee_irc> and shadowm has a slow computer
20140314 22:58:09< aquileia> I don't say it's better than hand-made animations, but the dragon (except the opaque fire-breath) is awesome nontheless
20140314 22:58:23< shadowm> Coffee_irc: ...
20140314 22:58:31< Coffee_irc> sorry :)
20140314 22:58:45< aquileia> And it's the worst-case scenario on the addon server
20140314 22:58:57< shadowm> aquileia: Is it in the forums?
20140314 22:59:30< aquileia> There is both a forum thread and an uploa to 1.12
20140314 22:59:40< aquileia> IIRC
20140314 22:59:50< shadowm> I mean to see the animation in action.
20140314 22:59:51< Coffee_irc> zookeeper: loading animations as textures would allow graphics card optimizations and in spritesheets would load faster
20140314 22:59:56< aquileia> Library of Kratemaqht
20140314 23:00:13< aquileia> no, there is no gif as far as I know
20140314 23:00:29< zookeeper> well, with spritesheets, you wouldn't get jerky animations anyway because the sheet which contains all/most them would be loaded when the unit first appears
20140314 23:00:33< shadowm> Meh, I don't want to download the add-on just to see the animation.
20140314 23:00:53< shadowm> zookeeper: Complex animations requiring more spritesheets.
20140314 23:00:57< aquileia> The addon is pretty much that unit...
20140314 23:01:18< aquileia> but I just wanted to refer to it, no need to look it up
20140314 23:02:15< zookeeper> shadowm, sure, but even then you'd only get one lag moment when the whole sheet for the needed animation is loaded, unlike now when apparently every frame gets loaded separately and causes every step of the animation to lag a bit
20140314 23:02:45< shadowm> Some steps lag more than others atm, it depends on the animation.
20140314 23:03:12< shadowm> Animations using faerie fire or the thunderguard muzzle flash seem to be among the most demanding.
20140314 23:05:34< zookeeper> in any case, ss's would help
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20140314 23:07:03< aquileia> shadowm: Oh sorry - there are three dragons, so the biggest of them is 779 frames and 23 MB
20140314 23:08:21< zookeeper> eh, which dragon was that?
20140314 23:09:02< Coffee_irc> zookeeper: you have to make it through the cave to the top left on the first scenario
20140314 23:09:16< Coffee_irc> and it eats one of the players
20140314 23:09:28< Coffee_irc> a pretty nice easter egg
20140314 23:09:43< shadowm> Currently we have 16 mixer channels, 8 of which are reserved for sound sources, one for the turn bell, one for the timer (?), and another for UI sounds.
20140314 23:10:11< shadowm> I'm not very good with maths, but I believe that's only 5 channels for sound effects.
20140314 23:10:30< Coffee_irc> shadowm: do we have surround sound?
20140314 23:10:42< Coffee_irc> or is that separate to what you are talking about?
20140314 23:10:48< shadowm> Yes, it's unrelated.
20140314 23:11:10< shadowm> So this is why I keep hitting the sound effect channel limit... it's ridiculously low. :x
20140314 23:14:45< zookeeper> durr. both ancient dragon feral and scholar just give me image not found as their baseframes.
20140314 23:14:52< aquileia> something absolutely unrelated, but... http://pastebin.com/2rM6Wq1w - is the order of initialization really that important that travis has to fail?
20140314 23:15:13< aquileia> zookeeper: I can upload them
20140314 23:15:25< zookeeper> nah
20140314 23:15:45< zookeeper> i'll just check out the frames, i don't particularly need to see it in-game...
20140314 23:16:32< spoffy> Thats a compiler error aquileia. It is in some contexts, can't comment on why its specifically throwing that one without seeing the source :)
20140314 23:17:00< aquileia> http://imagebin.org/299391 http://imagebin.org/299392
20140314 23:17:08< zookeeper> oh yeah that's really impressive
20140314 23:17:28< zookeeper> not the quality as such, but the animations
20140314 23:19:39< AI0867> aquileia: the compilers complain about it, so probably ;)
20140314 23:20:45< aquileia> AI0867: Visual C++ had no problem with the order if inizialisation, so it's a little hard to reproudce...
20140314 23:20:54< aquileia> *reproduce
20140314 23:21:55< AI0867> what branch is this?
20140314 23:22:06< aquileia> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/117
20140314 23:23:06< aquileia> I can only guess that the order of the initialisation list matters
20140314 23:23:10< AI0867> but yeah, the order in the header is:int maximum_value_; +	int minimum_value_;
20140314 23:23:33< AI0867> the order in a constructor's initlist should be the same
20140314 23:23:47< aquileia> and that's enough to fail? Hard times...
20140314 23:23:56< AI0867> we compile in strict mode
20140314 23:24:19< AI0867> and if you commit something that causes warnings, that means other people's builds will fail
20140314 23:25:07< AI0867> so travis probably saved some people some annoyance here
20140314 23:25:13< aquileia> In my compiler it caused no warning at all, that's the reason I'm baffled
20140314 23:25:24< AI0867> MSVC can be weird with warnings
20140314 23:25:27< aquileia> I'll change it of course
20140314 23:25:40< AI0867> and every compiler has its own sets of warnings
20140314 23:26:03< AI0867> we disable a number of MSVC ones in the source
20140314 23:33:03< aquileia> Let's see whether it's enough to get Travis to pass...
20140314 23:35:05< AI0867> I'm off for the night
20140314 23:35:16< aquileia> good night
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--- Log closed Sat Mar 15 00:00:09 2014