--- Log opened Tue Mar 25 00:00:47 2014
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20140325 01:27:50< shadowm> GRRRR.
20140325 01:30:08< shadowm> I can't build with clang: http://pastebin.com/9mZxGBw6
20140325 01:31:58< matthiaskrgr> have you tried disabling ccache ? 
20140325 01:32:48< matthiaskrgr> isnt it that thing which saves object files to save some time when you recompile the same code a lot?
20140325 01:34:14< loonycyborg> It's clearly a compiler error
20140325 01:34:30< matthiaskrgr> ok..
20140325 01:36:31< AI0867> using ccache wrong with clang will result in clang complaining about the arguments it's passed
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20140325 01:53:13< mattsc> shadowm: we used to have several dozen of those warnings in Xcode and clang on travis; they all got fixed using ‘using’
20140325 01:53:16< shadowm> Ivanovic, all: The announcement draft is up: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=40213  I plan to announce tomorrow around 12:00 UTC (also need to change the MP server configuration).
20140325 01:53:55< shadowm> That's 12 pm, not 12 am.
20140325 01:55:36< mattsc> shadowm: here’s an example:  https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/045c196872afc9c6adf174704c94250ca0ad2957
20140325 01:58:29< shadowm> I can't really take a look now and by the time I can I expect it'll be fixed already.
20140325 01:59:40< mattsc> shadowm: okay - btw, feel free to mention in the release notes that the switch of user data dir in OS X is accidental and premature (and blame me, if you want).
20140325 02:00:49< mattsc> Well, not “accidental” per se, but you know what I mean.
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20140325 02:27:26< mattsc> shadowm: in the announcement draft, using “crashes” for the MAI problems that were fixed is correct if it refers to AI crashes.  I’m just wondering if people will mistake this for Wesnoth crashes.
20140325 02:27:34< mattsc> The rest of the announcement looks good to me.
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20140325 04:30:37< RiftWalker> wesbot: seen thunderstruck
20140325 04:30:37< wesbot> RiftWalker: The person with the nick thunderstruck last spoke 1d 5h ago.  6h 14m ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth with the message:
20140325 04:33:01< vultraz> hey RiftWalker 
20140325 04:33:17< RiftWalker> vultraz: sup
20140325 04:35:07< vultraz> just wondering how would modifications be handled in a unified sp/mp sense? http://wiki.wesnoth.org/ModificationWML
20140325 04:37:40< RiftWalker> are they supported in multiplayer campaigns?
20140325 04:37:53< RiftWalker> i think so.
20140325 04:38:44< vultraz> As I see it they're basically global events
20140325 04:39:28< RiftWalker> As far as I can tell, they'll be handled the same way they're currently handled in MP campaigns.
20140325 04:40:13< vultraz> That would be useful, then
20140325 04:43:08< RiftWalker> thunderstruck: Will namespace collision be an issue if SP and MP campaigns are loaded in seperate dialogs as they do now, but with SP campaigns loading as MP campaigns?
20140325 04:43:22< RiftWalker> /s/do/are
20140325 04:43:34< vultraz> namespace collision?
20140325 04:45:03< RiftWalker> naming conflicts between sp and mp campaigns/scenarios, as far as I understand it, that could result from unification.
20140325 04:45:50< RiftWalker> but would, apparently, be fixed by isolating large mp content
20140325 04:46:04< RiftWalker> I'm still trying to understand it. thunderstruck is the authority.
20140325 04:47:13< vultraz> I don't see what conflicts there could be from a unification specifically 
20140325 04:47:24< RiftWalker> see yesterday's irclogs for more details
20140325 04:47:29< RiftWalker> also this https://gna.org/bugs/?11503
20140325 04:48:17< vultraz> I have to go to class, I'll look later
20140325 04:48:19< vultraz> bbl
20140325 04:48:24< RiftWalker> kk later
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20140325 05:10:09< sachith500> hey iceiceice and EliDupree I took a look at http://gna.org/bugs/?21790 and thought it'd be a nice feature to have
20140325 05:10:37< EliDupree> hi
20140325 05:10:46< sachith500> I got the display to print the variance for damage for now
20140325 05:10:53< iceiceice> hi Sachith
20140325 05:10:57< sachith500> hey :D
20140325 05:11:03< iceiceice> thats pretty cool actually :)
20140325 05:11:04< sachith500> would like to know your final opinions ^_^
20140325 05:11:26< EliDupree> FWIW I think we can do p-values (not exact, but to within some small margin of error)
20140325 05:11:57< sachith500> hmm I'm not too familiar with p values unfortunately
20140325 05:12:27< EliDupree> The naive method is only, like, cubic in the number of combats
20140325 05:12:33< sachith500> are they related to confidence intervals?
20140325 05:12:50< sachith500> oh
20140325 05:13:03< EliDupree> they're "What's the probability that a result this extreme would happen by chance?"
20140325 05:13:18< iceiceice> so i guess if you were giving me variance in the statistics menu, what i would do when i looked at it is compute standard deviation by taking square root in the calculator app, then looking at the damage + / -, and divide it by the standard deviation
20140325 05:13:18< sachith500> oh right got it
20140325 05:13:29< iceiceice> if i'm +2 standard deviations then i know its 95% unliekly
20140325 05:13:37< sachith500> yeah
20140325 05:13:42< sachith500> but that's the normal approximation
20140325 05:13:45< iceiceice> yeah
20140325 05:13:47< sachith500> for binomial distribution
20140325 05:13:50< EliDupree> I'd like to know how accurate that actually is....
20140325 05:13:56< iceiceice> its quite accurate in the long run
20140325 05:13:56< sachith500> for small n
20140325 05:14:04< sachith500> I don't know if it's such a good approximation
20140325 05:14:04< iceiceice> in the short run probably off singifacntly
20140325 05:14:12< sachith500> yeah
20140325 05:14:13< EliDupree> Well... then we could use that approximation in the long run
20140325 05:14:23< EliDupree> and do it exactly in the short run before the cost takes off too much
20140325 05:14:25< iceiceice> i mean in the short run the numbers wont be too crazy either
20140325 05:14:44< iceiceice> so it depends what you mean by accurate
20140325 05:15:06< sachith500> hmm
20140325 05:15:12< EliDupree> I mean, how close is that estimation to the actual p-value.
20140325 05:15:22< iceiceice> do you mean multiplicatively? or additively?
20140325 05:15:30< EliDupree> shrug
20140325 05:15:32< iceiceice> in your post you wrote that you wanted to know if something was 1/a million
20140325 05:15:41< EliDupree> Ah.
20140325 05:16:11< EliDupree> well, I'd love to discuss this at length but
20140325 05:16:18< EliDupree> my hands aren't doing great today.
20140325 05:16:22< EliDupree> Maybe in a few days
20140325 05:16:46< sachith500> hmm
20140325 05:16:47< iceiceice> i would think that standard deviation is the easiest thing to do... if you want to estimate like "log of p-value" or something i guess there might be some math you could do but i really have no idea
20140325 05:17:00< iceiceice> and its usefulness would be pretty limited
20140325 05:17:08< iceiceice> i mean these stats aren't interesting in the "small n" case anyways
20140325 05:17:30< sachith500> yeah
20140325 05:17:36< sachith500> std is way easy to get
20140325 05:17:41< sachith500> might be misleading though
20140325 05:18:14< iceiceice> you might want to discuss with other devs also, iirc this might even be an FPI listed on the forums so it might be considered controversial whether to include it
20140325 05:18:18< iceiceice> i just dont remember for sure
20140325 05:18:27< EliDupree> pfft
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20140325 05:18:32< iceiceice> but i think i would personally support adding std, esp. if you already made it :)
20140325 05:18:42< EliDupree> "it might make users focus on luck more than they already do.", will not happen, seriously
20140325 05:18:48< sachith500> it was like 3 lines of code :P
20140325 05:19:07< sachith500> so i don't really mind either way
20140325 05:19:16< sachith500> just thought the idea was good
20140325 05:19:19< sachith500> to have something like this
20140325 05:19:51< sachith500> soooo what do you think I should do :D
20140325 05:19:54< iceiceice> i would think its a bit more than 3 lines, you have to add it to savefiles somehow with the other stats too, right?
20140325 05:19:59< iceiceice> maybe i'm wrong about that 
20140325 05:20:06< sachith500> I was just focusing on displaying it
20140325 05:20:30< sachith500> under "Damage Calculations"
20140325 05:20:41< iceiceice> oh wait
20140325 05:20:46< sachith500> Time of day:
20140325 05:20:50< sachith500> Total Damage
20140325 05:20:53< sachith500> Variance
20140325 05:20:53< iceiceice> so you aren't putting it in the statistics menu
20140325 05:21:05< iceiceice> ahh so this is totally different from what i thoguht you were doing
20140325 05:21:35< sachith500> ahhh
20140325 05:21:41< sachith500> did I read it wrong
20140325 05:21:55< sachith500> I thought it was talking about the in game probabilities
20140325 05:22:15< sachith500> you know, the distribution that gets shown
20140325 05:23:13< iceiceice> so when EliDupree was talking about "+/-"
20140325 05:23:21< iceiceice> i thought he was talking about the statistics menu that comes up when you press "s"
20140325 05:23:48< iceiceice> so like, show the variance of total damage that you dealt this turn / the whole game
20140325 05:24:03< sachith500> oh
20140325 05:24:14< sachith500> I thought it was for a single attack
20140325 05:24:21< sachith500> on the damage calc menu
20140325 05:24:25< sachith500> p values for each outcome maybe
20140325 05:24:27< iceiceice> that might also be good, i never thought about it
20140325 05:24:36< iceiceice> i guess that the histogram basically shows you the p-values?
20140325 05:24:40< EliDupree> yes
20140325 05:24:57< sachith500> yeah
20140325 05:24:59< iceiceice> you could also plot like a "cumulative" probability graph
20140325 05:25:02< iceiceice> i guess
20140325 05:25:13< EliDupree> that would be great
20140325 05:25:15< iceiceice> so it would be integral of the curve we currently plot
20140325 05:25:29< iceiceice> idk if i ever saw that proposed
20140325 05:25:30< sachith500> yeah
20140325 05:25:39< sachith500> hmm that'd be interesting
20140325 05:25:44< sachith500> I'll take a look :D
20140325 05:25:48< iceiceice> in some cases it might be a bit more useful, esp. when the automatic zoom of the one we plot right now isn't so good
20140325 05:25:56< sachith500> I'm familiar enough with cdf pdf to get something done, I bet
20140325 05:26:57< iceiceice> cool
20140325 05:27:24< iceiceice> so iirc, the way the probability calculations work is that it basically exhaustively enumerates the probability space to get exact values
20140325 05:27:39< iceiceice> which is good for units with like < 5 strikes, and even works okay for berzerk units
20140325 05:27:44< iceiceice> as long as the hp's aren't too large
20140325 05:27:55< iceiceice> so i guess that the cdf doesn't require any more computation
20140325 05:28:05< sachith500> ah right
20140325 05:28:14< iceiceice> but i might be wrong you'll have to see whats the best way to do it
20140325 05:28:20< iceiceice> and certainly building the plot will require new code
20140325 05:28:20< sachith500> ok :D
20140325 05:28:54< sachith500> well i can take a look at the existing code and take it from there :)
20140325 05:29:02< sachith500> It sounds like a fun feature
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20140325 06:31:56< RiftWalker> wesbot: seen thunderstruck
20140325 06:31:56< wesbot> RiftWalker: The person with the nick thunderstruck last spoke 1d 7h ago.  8h 16m ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth with the message:
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20140325 06:43:35< sachith500> hey iceiceice EliDupree so I got it printing for the moment, should it show <=X HP remaining or >=X HP remaining?
20140325 06:43:58< iceiceice> wow that was fast :)
20140325 06:43:58< wesbot> iceiceice: Sometimes we are fast
20140325 06:44:09< sachith500> ah it's not complete
20140325 06:44:10< sachith500> :P
20140325 06:44:14< iceiceice> still
20140325 06:44:15< sachith500> only the graph is showing
20140325 06:44:21< sachith500> I'm replacing an existing graph for now
20140325 06:44:28< sachith500> since it's easier to check :P
20140325 06:44:32< sachith500> hehe
20140325 06:44:37< iceiceice> y sure
20140325 06:44:49< sachith500> so high to low? low to high?
20140325 06:45:28< iceiceice> well i guess whats more useful to the player
20140325 06:45:40< sachith500> oh
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20140325 06:45:46< sachith500> I could make it different
20140325 06:45:50< sachith500> for attacker and defender
20140325 06:46:24< iceiceice> i guess sometimes you want each kind of info?
20140325 06:46:31< sachith500> but that'd be confusing
20140325 06:47:24< iceiceice> if you currently have it substituting for the histogram, i guess one possibility is that you could have a drop down menu with 3 options?
20140325 06:47:25< sachith500> hmm
20140325 06:47:36< iceiceice> histogram, high-to-low, and low-to-high?
20140325 06:47:58< iceiceice> someone told me recently that we only have dropdown menus in the old GUI style right now, not in GUI2
20140325 06:48:12< sachith500> hmm ok
20140325 06:48:14< iceiceice> that also might be more complicated than we want, maybe its better to just show two graphs i dont know
20140325 06:48:23< iceiceice> probably better to ask someone who has worked on a GUI :p
20140325 06:48:25< sachith500> yeah I'll add 2 for now
20140325 06:48:38< sachith500> :D
20140325 06:48:59< sachith500> I'll add probability of having at least X Hp for now
20140325 06:49:06< sachith500> since that'd be more useful I guess
20140325 06:50:48< sachith500> and look at having more gui later :D
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20140325 07:08:26< iceiceice> so i guess i'm silly, if you have the one plot the other plot is pretty easy to figure out...
20140325 07:08:57< iceiceice> so yeah pick whichever one you like ofc
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20140325 07:49:36< RiftWalker> ls
20140325 07:49:41< RiftWalker> lol
20140325 07:51:36 * vultraz pings RiftWalker
20140325 07:56:06< vultraz> RiftWalker: so if I understand the problem, it is that #ifdef MULTIPLAYER is an all inclusive define, and therefore paths could clash?
20140325 08:04:29< vultraz> ah, I found the logs
20140325 08:05:40< zookeeper> yes
20140325 08:05:54< zookeeper> all MP content goes under the same #ifdef MULTIPLAYER
20140325 08:06:30< RiftWalker> vultraz: I'm not entirely sure, but that sounds about right
20140325 08:06:38< vultraz> Won't #ifdef MULTIPLAYER become obsolete if everything is MP?
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20140325 08:13:32< vultraz> I have an idea...hm.
20140325 08:14:38< RiftWalker> vultraz: You (and I) might want to take a look at Zaroth's proposed WML changes.
20140325 08:14:56< RiftWalker> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Zaroth_Multiplayer_Improvements#Implementation
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20140325 08:35:30< vultraz> RiftWalker: hmmm
20140325 08:36:05< vultraz> he definitely planned to do a lot..
20140325 08:37:03< thunderstruck> RiftWalker: When looking at Zaroth's proposal, keep in mind that some things are different now.
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20140325 08:39:29< thunderstruck> RiftWalker: loading SP and MP in same or different dialogs has nothing to do with the namespace collision
20140325 08:43:10< janebot> Wesnoth Forums | Developers’ Discussions • Suggestion: keep backwards compatibility by zookeeper [ 03-25-2014 08:42 ] [ http://r.wesnoth.org/p568600 ]
20140325 08:44:20< vultraz> thunderstruck: am I correct in saying an issue here is the fact that we don't want to reload the cache multiple times, making wesnoth appear slow?
20140325 08:45:52< thunderstruck> vultraz: yeah, that is also the problem. But by extending game_config_manager it shouldn't be too hard to take care of this, I think.
20140325 08:53:41< vultraz_iOS> If #ifdef MULTIPLAYER becomes unnecessary since everything is MP, why not simply make all addons have their own namespace? Then when Wesnoth is launched, run the preprocessing as usual, and attempt to connect to the network. (The network bit here is to save an extra step later), and load the namespace of the specific addon when you create a game
20140325 08:54:39< vultraz_iOS> Eras would be loaded globally to allow access by any addon
20140325 08:55:10< vultraz_iOS> S/loaded globally/loaded globally at game launch 
20140325 08:55:31< vultraz_iOS> You'd end up with only 2 cache refreshes 
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20140325 08:56:22< sachith500> bah I hadn't pulled in a while
20140325 08:58:16< thunderstruck> vultraz_iOS: That should work, but why we need to connect to network just after launching the game?
20140325 08:58:21< sachith500> iceiceice I sent a PR, let me know what you think when you have time.
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20140325 09:15:20< vultraz> thunderstruck: Since all campaigns would have an option to perform mp functions such as have observers, we'd want to already be connected to the server so the player can go right into the game creation screen and begin playing, without having to connect to the network beforehand
20140325 09:16:04< vultraz> Doing it at game launch would also serve double function with add-on reviews
20140325 09:16:28< vultraz> That being that you're signed in and can create reviews without, again, having to log in beforehand or create an anon review 
20140325 09:17:43< thunderstruck> vultraz: Most of the players would still play solo and connection to the server would not be needed.
20140325 09:17:44< vultraz> Bottom line, it's more convenient for the user
20140325 09:17:53< thunderstruck> So, I'm not sure whether it's a good thing to always connect.
20140325 09:19:09< vultraz> thunderstruck: true. but what harm could it do?
20140325 09:19:36< zookeeper> why the hell would you connect when you don't need to
20140325 09:20:03< thunderstruck> vultraz: some users would get annoyed by this, I guess.
20140325 09:20:37< thunderstruck> vultraz: they play offline, but the game still connects. Doesn't sound right.
20140325 09:20:59< zookeeper> why does a conversation like this even happen, of course the game shouldn't connect to a server unless needed.
20140325 09:22:21< vultraz> If all game creation was handled by a single screen, you'd have to log in somewhere to use network features. I'd find it more annoying to do so just to play solo
20140325 09:24:00< vultraz> And I believe it should be handled by a single screen for the simple sake that if all UMC have access to the same features, they should be played from the same place
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20140325 09:26:11< vultraz> That's why I suggest attempting to connect at game launch
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20140325 09:28:12< vultraz> Games like Dota 2 attempt to connect at launch - if it can't, all you can play is a non-networked bot game
20140325 09:28:25< vultraz> In our case, all you'd be able to play is solo, such as is our current SP
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20140325 09:35:26< thunderstruck> vultraz: Isn't Dota 2 mainly MP game?
20140325 09:43:38< sachith500> yeah
20140325 09:43:58< sachith500> it is. but they have bots too i think
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20140325 09:50:05< thunderstruck> sachith500: The point I was trying to make that Dota 2 is mainly MP game, while Wesnoth is mainly SP.
20140325 09:50:20< sachith500> hmm true
20140325 09:50:26< thunderstruck> And so it would be bad to always connect, because majority of our users wouldn't need that.
20140325 09:50:27< RiftWalker> i have a question
20140325 09:50:36< sachith500> needless connection is a no-no anyway
20140325 09:50:37< sachith500> I think
20140325 09:51:00< RiftWalker> vultraz: Would you always connect to the official server? What if you or your friend wanted to host a game?
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20140325 09:51:46< RiftWalker> vultraz: otherwise an option to "play offline" instead of logging in at startup might make sense, and put you into only local games
20140325 09:52:10< RiftWalker> vultraz: or actually, "play offline" could mean just not log in, leaving peer-to-peer games an option
20140325 09:52:40< RiftWalker> And then the option to log in would have to be up in the corner or something in case you change your mind
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20140325 09:57:17< RiftWalker> I think people might be more ready to adopt an opt-in, rather than opt-out, login approach however.
20140325 09:58:18< RiftWalker> Nevertheless, it would be necessary to have it available from the main menu / outside of mp in order to enable features like you were talking about, vultraz.
20140325 10:09:38< vultraz> RiftWalker: actually, that's a good idea
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20140325 10:11:56< vultraz> Yeah, opt-in as opposed to opt-out would be better
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20140325 12:35:25< shadowm> !log 610dc87c314aae957cebf7d60d9bb231b2150609
20140325 12:35:26< shikadibot> shadowm: Revision 610dc87c314a (Alexander van Gessel) on Sun Mar 23 00:44:19 2014:
20140325 12:35:30< shikadibot> shadowm: Get rid of utils::wide_string
20140325 12:35:32< shikadibot> shadowm:  
20140325 12:35:35< shikadibot> shadowm: utils::wide_string was a std::vector<wchar_t>
20140325 12:35:37< shikadibot> shadowm: (+22 discarded lines)
20140325 12:35:40< shikadibot> shadowm: Web interface URL: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/610dc87c314a
20140325 12:35:55< shadowm> What mailing list thread, forum discussion, or bug report justified this massive commit to a stable branch?
20140325 12:37:40< Soliton> gfgtdf: i'll try to checkout your rebased PR when i find some time.
20140325 12:37:50< shadowm> AI0867: In the future, if you want to fix line encodings in a file please do so in a separate commit.
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20140325 13:08:25< janebot> Wesnoth Forums | Developers’ Discussions • Re: Suggestion: keep backwards compatibility by Wintermute [ 03-25-2014 13:07 ] [ http://r.wesnoth.org/p568606 ]
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20140325 13:17:39< irker504> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:master bfa48aa52bc1 / projectfiles/Xcode/Wesnoth.xcodeproj/project.pbxproj: Update Xcode project http://git.io/TXTNBA
20140325 13:20:48< shadowm> Ivanovic: The announcement is up.
20140325 13:21:05-!- shadowm changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string+feature freeze active on 1.12 | 229 bugs, 353 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Alternate logs: http://wesnoth.debian.net | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20140325 13:22:09< shadowm> Also restarted the master/redirection and 1.11 wesnothd instances on server.wesnoth.org with updated binaries (probably more relevant to happygrue_, iceiceice, and AI0867).
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20140325 13:22:53< shadowm> (Since you three appear to be in charge of MP compatibility breaking this time around.)
20140325 13:27:11-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string+feature freeze active on 1.12 | 229 bugs, 352 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Alternate logs: http://wesnoth.debian.net | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20140325 13:28:57< happygrue_> I like to play to my strengths
20140325 13:29:13< happygrue_> you know, breaking compatibility and such. ;)
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20140325 13:33:16< irker504> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:master 76bcdae73ca1 / data/ai/micro_ais/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Messenger MAI: add optional [filter_second] tag http://git.io/PIr2Dg
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20140325 13:58:52< Aishiko_laptop> mordante, sorry about going too complex I'll have a revised outline tonight.
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20140325 14:42:18< AI0867> shadowm: the fact that it's a bugfix
20140325 14:43:59< AI0867> I suppose I could have broken it down and picked just the windows-relevant bits, but given that I they're windows-only, it'd be hard to check if they worked properly
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20140325 14:47:32< AI0867> shadowm: what compatibility did I break this time?
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20140325 15:16:31< irker504> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:master 5df117161a91 / data/ai/micro_ais/ (micro_ai_helper.lua micro_ai_wml_tag.lua): Move Micro AI auxiliary functions into their own file http://git.io/elH1Zg
20140325 15:16:33< irker504> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:master f417faa2d5c8 / data/ai/micro_ais/micro_ai_wml_tag.lua: Move path to Micro AI candidate actions files into variable http://git.io/OXN_Kg
20140325 15:18:19< mattsc> FYI, these commits ^ are not just refactoring for the hell of it.  They are supposed to make it easier for UMC authors to add additional functionality to the Micro AIs — such as adding 1.13 functionality to 1.12 campaigns; I’ve already had 2 requests for that.
20140325 15:19:30< mattsc> So now I switch to the 1.12 branch and do ‘git cherry-pick commit_number’ to add these to 1.12 as well?
20140325 15:22:03< vultraz> No idea, I'd like to know that too
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20140325 15:33:32< irker504> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:1.12 f502409d0421 / data/ai/micro_ais/ (micro_ai_helper.lua micro_ai_wml_tag.lua): Move Micro AI auxiliary functions into their own file http://git.io/8DV-sg
20140325 15:33:35< irker504> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:1.12 fbcb817fdacd / data/ai/micro_ais/micro_ai_wml_tag.lua: Move path to Micro AI candidate actions files into variable http://git.io/LvnWCQ
20140325 15:34:34< mattsc> vultraz: well, that’s what I did and it seems to have worked.
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20140325 16:50:01< mattsc> Hmmm…  Did something happen between 1.11.11 and 1.11.12 that I cannot have a scenario with only AI sides (no human controlled side) any more?
20140325 16:52:39< mattsc> Hmmm, again.  No, it still works for the Bottleneck Defense AI demo scenario, but not for Animals.  Must be the way how I turn off human control then.
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20140325 17:17:39< Dugi> Hello.
20140325 17:19:28< gfgtdf> hi
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20140325 18:14:28< shadowm> AI0867: A complete rewrite of the animations engine would also qualify as a bug fix and have the potential to introduce 100 new bugs in exchange.
20140325 18:14:38< shadowm> Just to give an example.
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20140325 18:15:30< shadowm> AI0867: You did not break MP compatibility AFAIK (I don't have time for looking into it further) but a simple path-based commit search shows that you changed src/server between 1.11.11 and 1.11.12 in some way.
20140325 18:16:07< shadowm> So maybe no compatibility was broken but for all I know an oversight could later cause random yetis to spawn across the map on MP games.
20140325 18:17:16< lipkab> Yetis are fun.
20140325 18:17:58< lipkab> shadowm: We are being kitchen-spammed again, by the way.
20140325 18:18:45< shadowm> How is this news? It happens every day multiple times.
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20140325 18:21:07< Ivanovic> shadowm: thanks for announcing!
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20140325 18:23:27< happygrue> kitchen spam?
20140325 18:24:18< shadowm> Technically, they are trying to sell "K.i.t.c.h.e.n.s." now, not kitchens.
20140325 18:24:29< happygrue> ah
20140325 18:24:56< shadowm> I have no effing idea what a "K.i.t.c.h.e.n.s." is, but I suspect I don't want to know.
20140325 18:29:40< happygrue> indeed
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20140325 19:01:21< mattsc> Well, some compatibility was broken from 1.11.11 to 1.11.12 in that the Animals MAI scenario suddenly throws a “you’ve been defeated” before the first turn even starts - but that might be because previously I was exploiting an unknown (to me) bug.  I don’t know.
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20140325 19:30:48< Dugi> Guys, I need some advice. How do I access global preferences from a file that didn't have access to that variable before?
20140325 19:35:03< Soliton> include "preferences.hpp"?
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20140325 19:35:32< Dugi> Yeah, makes sense. Seems so obvious now.
20140325 19:37:24< Dugi> Thanks, Solition.
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20140325 20:10:12< ykanarev> Hi all. I have a question about AI. Do you test new AI versions? I mean autotest. For example scenario new ai vs stable ai? Can it be SoC task to create or improve tests?
20140325 20:11:36< mattsc> ykanarev: Hi.  Yes, such tests exist, if you start Wesnoth from the commandline.  Do a ‘wesnoth —help’ and it gives you the CL options you can use for this.
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20140325 20:11:58< mattsc> ykanarev: and example of testing a custom AI vs. the default AI:  http://pastebin.com/NmPmxUKC
20140325 20:13:26< ykanarev> mattsc, thanks, I will see.
20140325 20:13:57< mattsc> ykanarev: you’re welcome, don’t hesitate to ask if you have follow-up questions
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20140325 20:23:40< Dugi> wesbot: talked fendrin
20140325 20:24:07< Dugi> Darn, what is the exact spelling of that command?
20140325 20:24:11< Soliton> there is also some framework for larger AI tests from Crab, i think. improving that to be run automatically to for every other version/commit with nicer reports might be a worthwhile project though.
20140325 20:24:37< Soliton> well, fendrin is here...
20140325 20:24:56< Soliton> otherwise it's "wesbot: !seen fendrin"
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20140325 20:25:26< Dugi> wesbot: seen fendrin
20140325 20:25:26< wesbot> Dugi: Queried user last spoke 4d ago.  fendrin is currently here and on the channels #wesnoth, #wesnoth-de and #wesnoth-umc-dev.
20140325 20:25:36< Soliton> better than some contentless ping is just asking a question though.
20140325 20:25:39< mattsc> Soliton:  Oh, right.  I always forget about that because I have written my own suite of scripts…
20140325 20:26:41< Dugi> Soliton: I needed to know when he last spoke. I've seen him log in, but he does not reply.
20140325 20:29:05-!- cib0 [~cib@p5DC75D15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20140325 20:29:25< Soliton> if you think you can extrapolate from that into the future...
20140325 20:30:14< Soliton> i'd try an email or forum PM of you must speak with him.
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20140325 20:34:27< ykanarev> AI vs AI mode is cool. I can look at it forever.
20140325 20:35:26< mattsc> ykanarev: yeah, it’s kind of mesmerizing.  :)
20140325 20:36:45-!- timotei__ [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140325 20:41:37< Dugi> Soliton: I have tried to PM him, he read it, bud didn't reply. I was asking a question that wasn't easy, maybe he didn't have time to think about it.
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20140325 21:02:36< mattsc> All: I finally figured out what’s happening with the AI test scenarios:
20140325 21:04:01< mattsc> If there is no human controlled side, there must be at least 2 AI sides, each of which has a leader, _and_ those side must be enemies of each other, otherwise the “you have been defeated” dialog comes up and ends the scenario.
20140325 21:04:06< mattsc> Is that intentional?
20140325 21:04:28< mattsc> It’s new in 1.11.12 in any case (and master), it was not like this in 1.11.11
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20140325 21:14:06< gfgtdf> mattsc: does it makes sense to play with no enemies ?
20140325 21:16:12< ykanarev> mattsc, if I right understood ai test produce only some cache files and a few logs. Where can I read more about cache? Can I review battle if I have cache?
20140325 21:16:38-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20140325 21:17:21< mattsc> gfgtdf: not just no enemies, but no enemies AND no leaders
20140325 21:18:17< mattsc> gfgtdf: and that wasn’t the question.  My question was whether this is intentional (in which case I will adapt my scenarios) or a bug (in which case it should be reported and/or fixed)
20140325 21:19:38< mattsc> ykanarev: they do not produce replays, that is is correct.  However, they produce output to stdout, so you can use that to see who won and in how many turns etc.
20140325 21:19:49< gfgtdf> mattsc: hm my qustion was more how can a scenario end when there is no human side and all ai sides are in one team ?
20140325 21:20:17< mattsc> ykanarev: and in my own AIs, I produce additional output with a special CA that gives me additional information.
20140325 21:21:04< gfgtdf> mattsc: ah i missread
20140325 21:21:59< mattsc> gfgtdf: my own use case is two enemy AI sides that have no leaders, but fight each other to the end anyway.  I’m sure some UMC author has come up with other use cases.
20140325 21:24:11< ykanarev> mattsc, What do you think, will it useful if replays will be created from ai test? I think it will comfortable. 
20140325 21:24:51< gfgtdf> mattsc: hmm i think sides must have leaders, i have seen some scenarios the had a 'leader' hidden in the corder of the maps, becasue of issues like that.
20140325 21:27:55< ykanarev> mattsc, replays mean you can only view or it's like a save and you can stop view and create another finish of the replay(like a branch)?
20140325 21:28:19< mattsc> gfgtdf: as I said, this is new in 1.11.12.  It’s a change in behavior while we’re in a feature freeze, so it really may only be done if this counts as a bug fix.
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20140325 21:31:47< mattsc> ykanarev: it might be nice to have the option to have replays created from AI vs. AI battles on the CL.  But it should be an options.  If I run 1000s of AI vs. AI games, I don’t want them to produce 1000s of replays by default.
20140325 21:33:00< mattsc> ykanarev: I once has something set up where I could trick Wesnoth into producing a replay under certain conditions (e.g. when the custom AI side lost), but it was a dirty hack and didn’t work in the end because of some other bug (which has in the meantime be fixed, I think)
20140325 21:33:41< mattsc> ykanarev: replays can be stop at the end of any turn.  You can then save the game and pick it up from there anew.
20140325 21:34:37< mattsc> (Rats, I need to type more carefully…  Sorry, trying to multi-task.  It’s not working.)
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20140325 21:39:40< ykanarev> mattsc, thanks. It's a good info. So I need to explore it more.
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20140325 21:46:27< Soliton> mattsc: do you have victory_when_enemies_defeated set?
20140325 21:46:58< mattsc> Soliton: set to ‘no'
20140325 21:47:37< Soliton> sounds like a bug then.
20140325 21:48:21< mattsc> Soliton: I’d agree - I just don’t know if it’s a new bug, or a fix to an old bug.  :P
20140325 21:48:54< mattsc> That’s why I am asking whether this is intentional.
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20140325 21:51:54< Soliton> bugs never are. not sure how that could be a bug fix.
20140325 21:55:31< mattsc> Soliton: well, somebody might argue that scenarios with only AI sides without leaders don’t make sense and shouldn’t be supported.
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20140325 21:56:09< mattsc> Soliton: anyways, I think this is a bug as well, so unless somebody here knows exactly what caused this and will fix it by then, I’ll report it tonight.
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20140325 22:00:50< RiftWalker> Soliton: When you get a chance, could you elaborate on the namespace issues arising from merging SP and MP?
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20140325 22:03:51< Dugi> Guys, I need to ask the question I wanted to ask fendrin, but because he isn't replying and I have finished almost everything else, I'll ask it here, I hope somebody will know the answer.
20140325 22:04:49< Dugi> I need to add a structure somewhere that would periodically during the gameplay learn what MP scenario or campaign add-on is used, what MP modification is used, what era is used or what campaign is used.
20140325 22:05:01< Dugi> Any ideas where and how could I do that?
20140325 22:08:32< Soliton> why would you not just record that when a scenario is started?
20140325 22:10:37< Dugi> Good idea. I need it to be done whenever it loads, that is, also when loaded from a save file, including joining MP games. Any ideas which files should I look at to find the relavant codes (should be something like preload event)?
20140325 22:11:58< gfgtdf> you could look at playsingle_controller. 
20140325 22:12:48< gfgtdf> (that also does MP scnearios)
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20140325 22:16:42< Dugi> playsingle_controller affects also multiplayer? Isn't playmulti_controller responsible for that? Well, I'll see it.
20140325 22:17:19< RiftWalker> playsingle affects both; playmulti only affects mp
20140325 22:18:35< Dugi> Ah, yes, it seems to inherit playsingle's functions.
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20140325 23:06:24< Dugi> playsingle_controller's construction runs whenever a scenario is loaded, right? Any idea how would I learn which scenario, campaign, era or MP modification in there?
20140325 23:10:43-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20140325 23:11:17< Dugi> Okay, it runs when I need it, now how do I learn I learn which scenario, campaign, era or MP modification is used?
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20140325 23:29:31< Dugi> wesbot: seen iceiceice
20140325 23:29:31< wesbot> Dugi: The person with the nick iceiceice last spoke 16h 20m ago.  3h 35m ago they left with the message: Quit: Leaving
20140325 23:30:47-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140325 23:33:49< gfgtdf> Dugi: maybe you could use resources::state_of_gae/gamedata but idk wheather that already works in that contructors
20140325 23:38:07< gfgtdf> Soliton: i did some more rebasing and added a new feature to my pr: https://github.com/gfgtdf/wesnoth-old/commit/043c5fa17277dd16cf1454308158fa39d9815b6f
20140325 23:39:43< gfgtdf> :)
20140325 23:43:24< Dugi> gfgtdf: Running through that now, grep can point me to files I need.
20140325 23:45:41< gfgtdf> Dugi: sry i don't know grep, and i don't know what you mean by 'that' ?
20140325 23:47:33< Dugi> gfgtdf: Grep is a unix program to look for a string in entire folders of files. It can search through wesnoth's source code in a few seconds. I've used it to locate where is used the data I need.
20140325 23:50:46< gfgtdf> Dugi: i normally use the searchfield in the github webpage, but that only works if you know the exact word.
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20140325 23:53:25< Aishiko_laptop> gfgtdf,  try grep -r 'searchterm' directorylocation to search =)
20140325 23:53:47< Dugi> gfgtdf: I prefer offline tools. I have a crappy internet at home, and outside, I am not always connected.
20140325 23:54:12< Dugi> It's getting late, I'll finish my stuff tomorrow, bye bye.
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20140325 23:55:25< mattsc> This message always amuses me: “Bisecting: 0 revisions left to test after this (roughly 0 steps)”
20140325 23:55:52< Aishiko_laptop> revisions==steps?
20140325 23:55:57< gfgtdf> Aishiko_laptop: im getting ParentContainsErrorRecordException  when i try that
20140325 23:56:15< gfgtdf> Aishiko_laptop: wait i accidently pasted that 'try'
20140325 23:56:26< mattsc> Aishiko_laptop: yes - it’s the “roughly” that I find amusing
20140325 23:56:28< Aishiko_laptop> hee heee
20140325 23:56:54< Aishiko_laptop> mattsc, Those are always fun to see
20140325 23:57:11< gfgtdf> Aishiko_laptop: ok now i tried grep, but it is clearly slower that the github webpage thing
20140325 23:57:57< Aishiko_laptop> gfgtdf, it well might be, after all they are likely sitting in a server farm of some sort......
--- Log closed Wed Mar 26 00:00:13 2014