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20140315 11:25:57< galegosimpatico> Good luck on the SDL2 transition men!
20140315 11:26:07< galegosimpatico> s/men/people/
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20140315 11:56:08< siddh> hello
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20140315 11:57:54< siddh> quick WML question.. in [damage] is this kind of filtering ok: [filter_self][filter_weapon]type=blade[/filter_weapon][/filter_self][and][filter_opponent][filter_location]terrain=M*^*,M*[/filter_location][/filter_opponent][/and]
20140315 11:58:13< siddh> I'd put in pastebin but since it's one line thought it's the same
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20140315 12:33:45< siddh> hrm
20140315 12:33:55< siddh> can't seem to make these melee/ranged filters to work :x
20140315 12:35:43< siddh> hmm if i have many separate [damage] tags in one ability
20140315 12:35:51< siddh> do they get somehow entangled with their filters?
20140315 12:36:31< siddh> That might be the reason because the melee filter seems to work while the ranged doesn't, and the difference is that ranged has several different effects, while melee just one
20140315 12:37:21< siddh> http://pastebin.com/6StuZNiV
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20140315 12:56:40< siddh> nevermind the melee doesnt work properly either and they do get somehow entangled :D
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20140315 14:04:47< siddh> hmmm
20140315 14:05:11< siddh> another WML question: If you make an event that causes damage which has the experience=yes/no boolean operator 
20140315 14:05:15< siddh> is it possible to make that so that
20140315 14:05:24< siddh> experience is only given if the unit being damaged dies?
20140315 14:06:56< siddh> in [harm_unit]
20140315 14:14:24< zookeeper> of course it's possible
20140315 14:16:31< zookeeper> not that i know how since i don't know anything about how [harm_unit] works
20140315 14:26:39< siddh> sorry I was a bit unclear
20140315 14:27:38< siddh> hmm well that's not really a priority I guess
20140315 14:27:53< siddh> basically there's a couple of units which deal additional damage with harm_unit 
20140315 14:28:02< siddh> the idea is that you can have them do a different type 
20140315 14:28:16< siddh> like i have a cavebear unit that does blade damage, but it also has impact damage 
20140315 14:28:33< siddh> so the problem is that both sides get + 1xp for each hit from the ability
20140315 14:28:46< siddh> but if you disable that, then the bear wont get xp from killing the opponent, if it happens with the ability 
20140315 14:29:39< siddh> actually I'll have to test that
20140315 14:29:48< siddh> but i'm pretty sure ->
20140315 14:34:23< siddh> yeah it's exactly like that
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20140315 15:01:59< zookeeper> siddh, i'm afraid i find that fundamentally a terrible idea in the first place
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20140315 15:16:49< siddh> why so?
20140315 15:17:11< siddh> I think you must lack something to think that way :D
20140315 15:17:42< zookeeper> most importantly because the extra damage cannot show up in damage calculations
20140315 15:17:53< siddh> yeah 
20140315 15:17:58< siddh> let's put it this way
20140315 15:18:09< siddh> it may be the idea is bad because wesnoth doesn't have what it takes to support such a basic feature
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20140315 15:18:32< siddh> and AI doesn't do very well with a lot of abilities
20140315 15:20:14< siddh> a lot of fantasy games have concepts like
20140315 15:20:21< siddh> "burning sword"
20140315 15:20:31< siddh> to think about the most classic example as such
20140315 15:20:47< siddh> this would be a combination of a sword, blade damage type, and fire, fire damage type
20140315 15:21:21< siddh> my point here is that if you think of the idea as terrible, you should limit it on what wesnoth can implement, and whati t cant
20140315 15:21:35< siddh> and since I'm not a master of wesnoth coding 
20140315 15:21:47< siddh> I don't have prior knowledge what can be done and can't :D
20140315 15:22:42< siddh> what comes to the bear it's hte same 
20140315 15:22:51< siddh> the bear doesnt cut with a sharp pointed object
20140315 15:22:57< siddh> but instead uses crushing brute force
20140315 15:23:10< siddh> however since the bear has claws 
20140315 15:23:13< siddh> it can also deal blade damage
20140315 15:23:21< siddh> it seems only natural tocombine them to create the desired effect
20140315 15:23:35< tdk27> the traditional wesnoth way to do that is two types of attack, picking one
20140315 15:23:56< tdk27> so either the bear slashes you with its claws or it punches you with raw force
20140315 15:23:58< siddh> yeah 
20140315 15:24:04< siddh> and if you just go with the traditioanl wesnoth way
20140315 15:24:12< siddh> what's the point of UMC in the first place?
20140315 15:24:27< siddh> you want argue with me? we can stay here until the end of time 
20140315 15:24:27< siddh> :D
20140315 15:24:45< tdk27> more to the point, wesnoth attack types are abstractions
20140315 15:25:30< siddh> sounsd like your attempting to tread on a deeper level of conversation you can't quite handle
20140315 15:25:43< tdk27> if you want to be phenomenally technical about it, a battleaxe should probably ahve both blade and impact components on every attack, a sword should do piercing and blade, a spiked mace piercing and impact
20140315 15:25:57< tdk27> (to take three handy examples)
20140315 15:26:06< siddh> alright those are pretty good examples
20140315 15:26:25< siddh> but to provide the effect of a battle axe
20140315 15:26:26< tdk27> but the attack type isn't a representation of every possible type of damage done - it's not "you hit them with an axe, so each of htese components happens"
20140315 15:26:28< siddh> just two damage types wouldn't suffice
20140315 15:26:47< siddh> yes you can have a simple system
20140315 15:26:52< siddh> or you can come up with improvements
20140315 15:27:01< tdk27> it's an abstraction of the general feel of the attack: the main thing a battleaxe does is cut things into big pieces - so it's blade only
20140315 15:27:15< siddh> yes 
20140315 15:27:16< tdk27> the main thing a mace does is smash things apart wtih raw force, so it's impact only, regardless of how spiky it is
20140315 15:27:24< siddh> but pointing out that it's an abstraction, isnt' really doing anything here
20140315 15:27:32< siddh> it's teh same even after the improvement
20140315 15:28:20< tdk27> in which case, what's the point of hte 'improvement'? it seems that it only complicates things without really doing much positive
20140315 15:28:32< siddh> well
20140315 15:28:51< siddh> the fact that attacks are abstractions, or understanding them happens entirely on the abstract level
20140315 15:29:01< siddh> which applies just about everything you're doing on the computer, for an example
20140315 15:29:10< siddh> bringing it up is of no particular substance to the issue
20140315 15:29:41< siddh> in the meantime
20140315 15:29:51< siddh> having two different types of damage combined into one attack
20140315 15:29:58< siddh> is an improvement
20140315 15:30:14< siddh> and it's required with several classic features, which of one would be the burning sword
20140315 15:30:21< tdk27> nope, a burning sword is just fire
20140315 15:30:28< tdk27> there's loads in the standard campaigns
20140315 15:30:32< siddh> nope
20140315 15:30:39< siddh> I said burning sword, as in a sword, that burns
20140315 15:30:41< tdk27> yes
20140315 15:30:45< siddh> a sword of fire would be what you're looking for
20140315 15:30:50< siddh> if you want to argue semantics
20140315 15:30:57< siddh> in anycase they're *both* classic examples
20140315 15:31:18< tdk27> a burning sword in wesnoth is represented as a sword which does a fire typed attack. a holy sword does a holy typed attack, not a holy/blade one
20140315 15:31:24< siddh> however what I believe you're doing here
20140315 15:31:36< tdk27> the current system alreayd handles those items - at a simple level, but it does feature them
20140315 15:31:37< siddh> is you want to disagree with me, because I criticized wesnoth or something like that
20140315 15:32:02< tdk27> I don't develop this game, I don't have a dog in the fight there. I mostly think you're missing hte point of how the wesnoth system is designed
20140315 15:32:08< siddh> well
20140315 15:32:12< siddh> I'm totally not missing the point
20140315 15:32:22< siddh> but so far you've not really made any arguments that are of value
20140315 15:32:43< siddh> that you should stick to traditional wesnoth, attacks are abstractions.
20140315 15:32:49< siddh> anything else?
20140315 15:33:08< siddh> ok
20140315 15:35:18< tdk27> I suppose that not reading what I'm saying does make it easy to dismiss. I didn't say attacks are abstractions, I said the damage type of an attack is an abstraction - it's a single broad category that relatively accurately describes the attack
20140315 15:35:31< tdk27> so instead of putting multiple onto one attack, you work out what is appropriate and just apply that one
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20140315 15:36:51< tdk27> combining attack types doesn't do much in terms of opening up interesting gameplay - it just introduces more points on the scale, whcih makes things fuzzier and less interesting. it also complicates the system
20140315 15:36:55< siddh> using 1 damage type is possible
20140315 15:36:59< siddh> using 2 damage types is also possible
20140315 15:37:04< siddh> it's essentially an improvement
20140315 15:37:25< siddh> and whether it makes the game more interesting or not, is more about how you use that option, than the nature of the option dictating how it's gonna be
20140315 15:37:35< tdk27> and this is why I was saying you have missed the point about how the wesnoth system is designed: options are bad, and keep it simple
20140315 15:37:48< siddh> well that's not really what you were talking about 
20140315 15:38:09< siddh> and keep it simple is another moot point
20140315 15:38:21< tdk27> your sole argument is essentially "I want this to be more complex and have more options"
20140315 15:38:37< siddh> yes because it allows creating more meaningful and interesting content
20140315 15:38:47< siddh> you can play tic tac toe if you think simpler is always better
20140315 15:39:19< zookeeper> you're missing the point that while you can have 2 damage types, it doesn't work nearly as well as 1
20140315 15:39:24< zookeeper> it works a lot worse
20140315 15:39:33< siddh> it actually doesn't work worse
20140315 15:39:49< siddh> but I understand if wesnoth doesn't allow creation of such a dimension
20140315 15:40:13< siddh> but if you think that it's a good thing,
20140315 15:40:17< siddh> i can assure you, you're mistaken
20140315 15:40:33< zookeeper> how is "you can't really predict how much damage the attack does in all situations, so you can't know whether you have a chance of killing the enemy" not worse?
20140315 15:41:10< tdk27> one of the most beautiful features of wesnoth is being a very simple system that still leads to interesting tactical and strategic gameplay and choices
20140315 15:41:11< siddh> so you're essentially saying the battle result calculator doesn't support this feature so players will be blindfolded in the realm of mathematics?
20140315 15:41:14< tdk27> that's why it's not civilisation
20140315 15:41:40< siddh> ok I see you're totally defending wesnoth here 
20140315 15:41:43< zookeeper> yes, the battle result calculator doesn't support that feature.
20140315 15:41:53< siddh> ok 
20140315 15:42:00< siddh> Fine, I can live with that
20140315 15:42:43< siddh> if players feel they're facing an impossible task taking non battle result calculator predictable outcomes then so be it
20140315 15:45:04< siddh> so far my experience though is that any game that has incorporated multiple damage types, has done it in such a manner
20140315 15:45:15< siddh> that removing that dimension in retrospect would seriously dumb down the game
20140315 15:45:31< siddh> I'm fairly confident the same would apply in this case, even though it's not exactly the same thing
20140315 15:46:28< tdk27> if your gameplay depends on having multiple damage types to have interesting tactical situations and depth, that's not a problem with your damage type system
20140315 15:47:22< siddh> with the given logic
20140315 15:47:26< siddh> you might as well reduce all damage types to 1
20140315 15:47:36< siddh> and while you're at it give all units the same defense in each terrain
20140315 15:47:42< siddh> if your game play depends on that 
20140315 15:47:44< tdk27> nope, but I could see an argument for 3
20140315 15:47:48< siddh> well, it's not a problem with the system
20140315 15:47:53< siddh> it's a problem with your way of looking at it
20140315 15:48:01< tdk27> (also, a more restrictive rps nature of a system in attacks and resistances increases complexity by requiring careful balance of troops, while if everyone does some of everything, that goes away)
20140315 15:48:10< siddh> actually that's false
20140315 15:48:59< siddh> a more complex conditioanlly interdependent rp provides additional dimensions for careful balance of troops
20140315 15:49:35< siddh> essentially it's about opposition and efficiencies
20140315 15:49:40< siddh> how objects relate to each other
20140315 15:49:46< siddh> and it requires scaling factors
20140315 15:50:06< siddh> by increasing the number of scaling factors, the dimension in which you're to create your objects to be balanced is larger
20140315 15:50:17< siddh> therefore your capacity for creating careful balances is better
20140315 15:50:48< siddh> think about it this way
20140315 15:50:54< siddh> right now this game has 2 forms of passive defense
20140315 15:51:00< siddh> the defense per hex, and unit resistances
20140315 15:51:12< siddh> unit resistances are geometric directly relative to amount of damage
20140315 15:51:18< siddh> you could add another factor, absorption
20140315 15:51:29< siddh> which would for an example reduce 1 point of damage prior/after the resistances, 
20140315 15:51:34< siddh> depending on if the unit has absorption from that type
20140315 15:51:48< siddh> this would complicate the resistance system in a manner which allows for more complicated opposition of efficiencies
20140315 15:51:57< siddh> and the direction is the opposite to if you would remove teh resistances entirely
20140315 15:52:22< siddh> so you're point towards "let's remove resistances" while I'm pointing at "resistanec feature is pretty interesting and creates additional content"
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20140315 15:53:55< tdk27> I think resistances add a lot of gameplay value, precisely because they allow you to hvae more than about 3 or 4 units which are all distinct. I don't think adding more resistances does anywhere near as much there, especially if your new ones are basically averages of existing ones
20140315 15:54:34< siddh> yeah you're beginning to understand now
20140315 15:54:52< tdk27> but your 'absorption' doesn't do much there at all
20140315 15:54:59< siddh> actually it does
20140315 15:55:17< tdk27> because it's just "well, let's make resistance a bit muddier"
20140315 15:55:20< siddh> it has exactly the same effect as resistances added to defense
20140315 15:55:21< siddh> the fact that your understanding is clouded 
20140315 15:55:25< siddh> is not fact about the system
20140315 15:55:35< siddh> "muddier" is a state in your cognition, not in the actual system
20140315 15:56:40< tdk27> similarly, a fire sword that does blade/fire damage decreases the interesting choices. when your weapon only does one type, you have to deploy it carefully, because it's harmless against fireproof enemies. when it does both, that concern goes away, and it becomes more generic
20140315 15:57:06< siddh> to be more specific 
20140315 15:57:16< siddh> you could map all the units in a dimension of resistances 
20140315 15:57:45< siddh> two damage types would create an additional node somewhere between two types
20140315 15:58:01< siddh> you can provide the same effect by, 
20140315 15:58:06< siddh> creating a new type of resistance
20140315 15:58:17< siddh> however
20140315 15:58:34< siddh> then it becomes an issue of combinatorics. do you think just manually adding a new thing everytime is better
20140315 15:59:02< siddh> well this explanation doesn't work
20140315 15:59:16< siddh> it's more efficient to add content in another way 
20140315 15:59:24< siddh> than just adding new types of resistance all the time
20140315 15:59:41< tdk27> actually, I think manually adding one new resistance would provide a lot more interest than adding an average between every pair of existing resistances
20140315 15:59:55< siddh> well it wouldn't be the average
20140315 15:59:56< tdk27> why this is true is left as an exercise to the reader
20140315 16:00:11< siddh> because it depends on how much each type of damage is delivered
20140315 16:00:17< siddh> and also are they subject to the same conditionally dependent variables
20140315 16:00:39< siddh> just in the case of harm_unit we can say they're not the same;
20140315 16:00:53< siddh> because by default it's not affected by slow for an example
20140315 16:01:25< siddh> ..but now that you mention, tdk27 
20140315 16:01:28< siddh> I've also added resistance types
20140315 16:01:31< siddh> 8)
20140315 16:02:19< siddh> anyway let's clear teh issue of absorption 
20140315 16:02:23< siddh> incase you didn't get it
20140315 16:02:28< siddh> what does it do?
20140315 16:02:34< siddh> it's like resistance, but in a special way
20140315 16:02:43< siddh> it scales the units resistance vs another variable
20140315 16:02:48< siddh> what is that variable? :D
20140315 16:03:06< siddh> it's the number of attacks as opposed to total damage from those attacks
20140315 16:03:43< siddh> so you can adjust if the unit is better vs units with high number of attacks - low number of attacks
20140315 16:04:32< siddh> so if you have absorption and resistance system
20140315 16:04:40< siddh> it's in a sense a square of the systems
20140315 16:04:45< siddh> if you keep adding new resistances to hte list
20140315 16:04:53< siddh> you can see that it's not gonna be more efficient to do thing that way always
20140315 16:08:43< zookeeper> the way i've always found would be the preferable way to add support for multiple damage types is simply allowing a list as the damage type. whichever type in the list deals the most damage gets used.
20140315 16:09:01< zookeeper> flaming sword with damage type fire,blade uses fire against ghosts and blade against footpads
20140315 16:09:13< siddh> I think that's pretty nice
20140315 16:12:06< tdk27> zookeeper: I feel that hits the same "removes difficult choices" issue
20140315 16:12:30< zookeeper> sure
20140315 16:12:47< tdk27> I agree that it or something like it is the best way to achieve such
20140315 16:13:46< siddh> I think the effect produced by this list choice is very close and I could settle for that
20140315 16:13:53< siddh> except taht if you add the mentioned absorption system
20140315 16:13:59< siddh> then you'll see it's no longer good enough
20140315 16:14:38< siddh> for an example if you have 3 blade + 3 fire , it's pretty close to using a list with fire,blade
20140315 16:14:42< siddh> and 6 total damage
20140315 16:15:37< siddh> well it wouldnt provide the same result 
20140315 16:15:45< siddh> but otherwise good enough :D
20140315 16:16:16< siddh> I mean it wouldnt provide teh same result with absorptions.. But I think it's good enough to use anyway
20140315 16:19:17< siddh> hmm 
20140315 16:20:56< siddh> hey zookeeper 
20140315 16:21:09< siddh> I noticed you have art in graphics library. Is it ok to use some of those images? :D
20140315 16:23:56< siddh> I wonder if players would be distractd by using images of villages as placeholders for units 8)
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20140315 16:29:38< siddh> btw thx zookeeper  removing those [and] tags fixed at least this iaido ability :)
20140315 16:30:48< siddh> actually it seems it fixed all ranged/melee abilities i had at the same go
20140315 16:30:50< siddh> :D
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20140315 22:52:44< battlestar> Les soldats reviendront! Arriveront victorieux! Donnez tout pour l'honneur!
20140315 23:08:22-!- Patch [bddb4335@gateway/web/freenode/ip.189.219.67.53] has joined #wesnoth
20140315 23:11:52< Patch> What would you prefer, Trolls, Ogres or Woses?
20140315 23:14:19< zookeeper> ogres
20140315 23:15:15< battlestar> trolls are the best, especially on the internet
20140315 23:15:17< Patch> Indeed.
20140315 23:15:32< zookeeper> but that's just because of the striped pants. if there was a troll with striped pants, then that'd be awesome.
20140315 23:15:43< zookeeper> a wose with pants would be weird
20140315 23:16:00< Patch> A wose with plants...
20140315 23:16:08< zookeeper> !
20140315 23:16:40< battlestar> it's called tree warmer
20140315 23:19:12< Patch> Well, Ogres certainly are lonely, do you think they use bows, javelins or rocks?
20140315 23:19:49< zookeeper> certainly not bows
20140315 23:20:11< Patch> Certainly.
20140315 23:20:13< zookeeper> i guess they could learn javelins, but without someone to teach them i think they'd just throw rocks :p
20140315 23:20:48< Patch> Hm, any other easy to make and use ranged weapon I'm missing?
20140315 23:21:23< Patch> Ah, do Ogres have strong lungs? for blowdarts?
20140315 23:21:46< zookeeper> that might work
20140315 23:23:17< Patch> Indeed. And armor? or just clothing?
20140315 23:23:51< Patch> leather boots, but bear skin or what animal could they kill easily to make clothes?
20140315 23:24:05< Patch> wolfs?
20140315 23:24:14< zookeeper> in the wild i think they wouldn't bother with anything but pelts and such
20140315 23:24:54< zookeeper> but of course it might be a good idea for humans or orcs to clad their pet ogres in heavy armor :x
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20140315 23:26:17< Patch> Yes, but have in mind they're free, receiving no help from other races, simply, eating them.
20140315 23:27:35< Patch> I'm off, I know now what I should work in, thanks Zookeeper and Battlestar and those lurking.
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20140315 23:30:13< shadowm> Why did that person just send me a weird question in private?
20140315 23:30:23< zookeeper> i dunno. how weird was it?
20140315 23:30:41< shadowm> It was about choosing names for two saurian unit types in a level progression.
20140315 23:36:30< zookeeper> well, not too weird then!
20140315 23:37:55< battlestar> i eat saurians for dinner
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--- Log closed Sun Mar 16 00:00:58 2014