--- Log opened Sun Mar 16 00:00:58 2014
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20140316 01:02:29< battlestar>  why do i feel like a piece of code that works without bugs on the first try is so far and few between
20140316 01:04:29< battlestar> is there a debug function that removes a unit?
20140316 01:05:33< shadowm> You can remove units from the map with the context menu in debug mode in 1.11.x.
20140316 01:06:21< battlestar> ah, i need to upgrade then
20140316 01:06:50< shadowm> Content creators should stop making content for 1.10.x at this point, I'd say.
20140316 01:07:12< shadowm> Alternatively, :lua wesnoth.wml_actions.kill { x = 1, y = 2 }  should work on 1.10.x too.
20140316 01:09:01< battlestar> where's the log for major wml changes from 10 to 11?
20140316 01:09:27< shadowm> There isn't one besides the changelog and wmllint's suggestions.
20140316 01:09:48< battlestar> hmm
20140316 01:10:00< battlestar> that sounds like of not easy
20140316 01:10:49< battlestar> but the wml wiki should be updated to suit 1.11?
20140316 01:11:51< shadowm> ReferenceWML has contained documentation for 1.11.x marked with {{DevFeature1.11}} since right after 1.10.0 was first released.
20140316 01:12:50< battlestar> yeah noticed that
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20140316 01:16:05< battlestar> I thought filter_condition can be used to limit event firing through checking variables
20140316 01:17:13< shadowm> Yes, it can.
20140316 01:17:51< battlestar> wonder what's wrong with this: http://pastebin.com/M28D2Gyq  the event still fired when "coffin_opened" equals 2
20140316 01:18:06< battlestar> which i could see in debug
20140316 01:18:22< shadowm> not_equals in [variable] doesn't take a comma-separated list. You are literally checking that coffin_opened's value does not equal "2,4".
20140316 01:18:27< battlestar> oh
20140316 01:18:56< battlestar> so equals doesn't take a comma list either?
20140316 01:19:01< shadowm> No.
20140316 01:19:49< battlestar> so this needs a [variable][/variable] [or][variable][/variable][/or] structure then?
20140316 01:20:12< battlestar> oops, should be [and]
20140316 01:20:36< shadowm> Yes, but since [and] is implicit you can just have both [variable] blocks lined up.
20140316 01:21:05< battlestar> right so stuck with [or]
20140316 01:21:23< battlestar> same variable can't equal two things same time
20140316 01:21:47< shadowm> But you are testing inequality, not equality.
20140316 01:22:14< battlestar> you're right, i was getting confused lol
20140316 01:23:15< battlestar> now gotta figure out why the enemy unit suddenly popped out of existence lol
20140316 01:23:28< battlestar> this is so screwed up
20140316 01:25:51< battlestar> is there any better way to interrupt combat than store-kill-unstore a unit?
20140316 01:26:39< battlestar> maybe petrify-unpetrify hmmm
20140316 01:54:23< battlestar> flying  in formation, flying in formation, flying in formation.
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20140316 06:17:10< Delfinisko> hi guys. what can elves do against massing orc grunts? on map with lots of forest? i mean when there are really LOTS of grunts on the battlefield
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20140316 06:58:19< battlestar> lots of elvish archers
20140316 07:03:48< Delfinisko> and... any idea how to set AI logic, so elves will not fight outside the forests?
20140316 07:04:40< battlestar> think i've seen it discussed in the forum
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20140316 11:47:41< siddh> hello :)
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20140316 12:17:09< Delfinisko> hi
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20140316 13:03:59< siddh> D:
20140316 13:04:15< siddh> came up with a new schedule plan but it's gonna take a long time to produce
20140316 13:04:35< siddh> In this one the Sun has a cycle of 10 turns
20140316 13:04:44< siddh> which of 5 are night, 2 morning, 1 day, 2 evening
20140316 13:04:57< siddh> and with it goes 2 moons and a star, similar to previous schedule design
20140316 13:05:41< siddh> but elongating the sun's cycle and making it with only 1 day produced a betetr result, although I failed to make it so that all 
20140316 13:05:58< siddh> teh sun, both moons and the star would coincide on the same turn as Full to produce the brightest possible day :D
20140316 13:06:52< siddh> but I Got all the other special occasions, which essentially are a night with only the star, a night for each of the moons, and an unnatural day which I'll cann ünna or something, when the sun is in night state and all the other celestials are in full state
20140316 13:07:25-!- falcon` is now known as Falcon`
20140316 13:07:48< siddh> as well as "the darkest hour" when all celestials are in night state... but perhaps more importantly I got only 1 of each 
20140316 13:08:02< siddh> :D
20140316 13:08:33< siddh> so now I have to create 60 images for each time of day, which is gonna be a pain
20140316 13:09:06< siddh> and after that make teh .cfg file for teh schedule, which isn't so bad, except that I'm not sure if you have to make a separate list-schedule for each possible starting time
20140316 13:09:24< siddh> in which case it would mean creating 60 lists but perhaps compared to making the images it's not so bad either
20140316 13:12:36< siddh> I think I'll do this by creating an image for each state of each celestial, and with it an overlay for the terrain / night 
20140316 13:12:54< zookeeper> sounds like you'd be better off creating overlay images and then ~BLITting them together
20140316 13:12:56< siddh> and then I'll just select on/off which one is visible to create the wanted combination. It's probably gonna be a little ugly, but so what :)
20140316 13:13:03< zookeeper> ...which you might have just said yourself
20140316 13:13:19< siddh> lol yes I guess .D
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20140316 13:14:24< siddh> this is not gonna be even close to as pretty as teh wesnoth default cycle images. But it'll do. Now cigarette and then time to get to work. :D
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20140316 13:46:57< siddh> alright I got it done for the sun so it's 2 different morning states, 2 different evening states, and the day states
20140316 13:47:18< siddh> got a sky gradient and a terrain overlay. The skygradients are ok, but the terrain overlay kinda sucks
20140316 13:47:29< siddh> but it's ok :)
20140316 13:47:37< siddh> and now to one of the celestials :D
20140316 14:11:43< celticminstrel> Celestials?
20140316 14:13:09< siddh> moons and a star
20140316 14:13:17< siddh> just got the first moon's overlay stuff done :D
20140316 14:13:27< siddh> now time for a cigarette... still got 1 moon, 1 star to go
20140316 14:13:45< siddh> so ½ done for the components ->
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20140316 14:26:09< siddh> lol
20140316 14:26:12< siddh> I just realized
20140316 14:26:36< siddh> that despite of putting a few hours of thought into this it never crossed my mind that I could create an eclipse XD
20140316 14:26:40< siddh> until now and it's too late
20140316 14:26:42< celticminstrel> HEh.
20140316 14:26:45< celticminstrel> ^Heh
20140316 14:26:57< celticminstrel> Is it really too late, though?
20140316 14:27:07< siddh> well in terms of time consumed yes
20140316 14:27:12< siddh> :D
20140316 14:27:25< jck_> Hello everybody. I am currently trying to run the wesnoth server (version 1.10, i.e. last stable release) in dualstack ipv4/ipv6 network, but the server only binds to an ipv4 socket. The manpage does not show an specific ipv6 related options. Could anybody tell me how to bind the server to an ipv6 socket?
20140316 14:27:37< siddh> I'd have to start from square 2 in a game which has 20 squares adn I'm on square 10-15 
20140316 14:28:08< siddh> I have no idea what that means jck but i hope someone can help you :)
20140316 14:28:32< siddh> kk back to "work"
20140316 14:28:33< siddh> ->
20140316 14:30:36< siddh> hmm
20140316 14:30:52< siddh> actually it's not too late sineci  just realized I had changed the FULL states of the moon I've not done yet from 2 to 3
20140316 14:31:07< siddh> I'm gonna check if I got a coinciding F2 with the sun's full state 8)
20140316 14:31:29< siddh> I.. have .. it :D
20140316 14:31:52< siddh> and.. there's just 1 of them 
20140316 14:32:08< siddh> so no it's not too late, since I got lucky and that means I'll have an eclipse too :D
20140316 14:32:41< siddh> that's so lucky :D
20140316 14:34:32< siddh> i mean because the others are also Gone at the same time
20140316 14:35:22< siddh> oh man this could be awesome :D well gotta continue
20140316 14:38:02< siddh> but 
20140316 14:38:22< siddh> with the sun's current position it's graphically impossible to fit 9 states of this moon into the image so that it would have all that I got on paper with the eclipse
20140316 14:38:29< siddh> perhaps by moving the sun it can work though
20140316 14:53:25< siddh> yeah it kind of worked :D
20140316 14:53:29< siddh> good enough for me 
20140316 14:53:42< siddh> need another cigarette .. luckily the star is easy since it has just 2 states to draw
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20140316 15:11:42< siddh> a few dozen layers 8)
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20140316 15:16:08< celticminstrel> What's all this for?
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20140316 15:33:15< siddh> :D
20140316 15:33:21< siddh> to create a schedule 
20140316 15:33:32< celticminstrel> For?
20140316 15:33:38< siddh> for wesnoth, an era
20140316 15:33:54< siddh> btw I just made my first schedule image. 59 to go 8)
20140316 15:34:02< siddh> luckily this takes like 1 minute per image
20140316 15:34:09< siddh> or maybe not that much I'd be here for an hour :DD
20140316 15:34:28< celticminstrel> Heh.
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20140316 15:36:13< siddh> damn this is gonna be sweet :D
20140316 15:36:26< siddh> I'd no idea what the imges would look like 
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20140316 15:39:36< siddh> oh well actually i have to make special overlays for the special occasions I guess hmm :D
20140316 15:39:50< siddh> so it's probably gonna take a time but I already made 4 images (and it took 6 minutes 8()
20140316 15:39:58< siddh> but some time was consumed in forming a routine :D
20140316 15:40:26< siddh> damn it i need a cigaretet. So far they look sweet! (Though my expectations were very low to begin with)
20140316 15:40:44< siddh> so in comparison to them they're sweet. :)
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20140316 15:45:52< siddh> kk back to work :D
20140316 15:47:06< siddh> ops there's a little mistake I'll have redo the images (a couple of overlapping pixels from a layer) so some time goes to waste there 
20140316 15:48:23< siddh> fixed :D
20140316 15:48:47< siddh> luckily i made a separate overlay for the sky and the terrain so it was really easy to fix
20140316 15:49:15< siddh> but unfortunately gotta start from image 1 again.. so we'll see how long it takes. Probably an hour it seems :
20140316 16:03:15< siddh> 10 images done
20140316 16:03:40< siddh> so far I can say that the crimson moon overlay wasn't well done, and terrain overlays for dusk are kinda bad
20140316 16:03:58< siddh> BUT it's good enough and I'll do reviced version later when it becomes priority again :D
20140316 16:11:14< siddh> actually the crimson moon problem could be fixed just be removing terrain overlay during the morning/dusk
20140316 16:11:22< siddh> so it would be fairly easy :D
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20140316 16:20:21< siddh> 20 images done
20140316 16:20:31< siddh> apparently im now at 2 minutes per image.. lolz..
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20140316 16:26:48< siddh> special image crimson moon only is really nice :D
20140316 16:27:38< siddh> what do you think is good effect for the blood moon event 8)
20140316 16:27:49< siddh> everyone does 10% more dmg? drains are doubled? something like that ? :D
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20140316 16:30:11< siddh> think im gonna settle for everyone does 20% more dmg in melee combat 8)
20140316 16:41:33< siddh> image 31 done.. more than half of them are done :D
20140316 16:41:39< siddh> but seriously this was way slower than i thought
20140316 16:55:27< siddh> image 41 done
20140316 16:55:38< siddh> still at about 1½ minutes.. damn it :D
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20140316 17:11:50< siddh> image 54 done :D
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20140316 17:16:47< siddh> all images done!
20140316 17:19:49< siddh> I uploaded the era on the developement server. The schedule doesn't work though but you can check out the images if you're interested :D
20140316 17:20:31< siddh> they're not so good though. I think night images were succesful but daytime images not so much. The crimson moon screws up the day terrain and also the dusk terrain is badly colored
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20140316 17:30:03< siddh> and now to make teh CFG file.. well that should take an hour too :<
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20140316 17:54:37< siddh> well that's done
20140316 17:54:49< siddh> except I only got the "default" schedule
20140316 17:54:55< siddh> now I'd need to make the ones for different starting times
20140316 17:56:38< siddh> well i aint done the colors either
20140316 18:03:38< siddh> hmm
20140316 18:03:50< siddh> im not sure if this is actually gonna work like this but .. we'll see :D
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20140316 18:20:26< siddh> alright it's done
20140316 18:20:31< siddh> well 
20140316 18:20:35< siddh> in a half-assed way but it works to some extent
20140316 18:20:35< siddh> :D
20140316 18:22:43< siddh> took me 6 hours total apparently.. to create this. And all of it was grunt work. Like basically a script could've done it for me, if it was really fancy
20140316 18:22:44< siddh> xD
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20140316 18:23:59< celticminstrel> Heh.
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20140316 18:47:21< siddh> should rework the lawful bonus but not today
20140316 18:47:50< siddh> basically i just did that randomly to spare time , but so that it makes some sense
20140316 18:48:08< siddh> since previous formula i had created wasnt possible to use now
20140316 18:50:22< siddh> gameplaywise it's all ove the place :D
20140316 18:51:13< siddh> but it doesnt matter since for the most part the lawful/chaotic bonus is 10 so it's not so decisive
20140316 18:51:38< siddh> like it only creates 22% advantage while in default the schedule causes 66% advantage
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20140316 18:58:10< siddh> I mean now that the system is ready adjusting those factors is small beans :D
20140316 19:00:50< siddh> now im off to have a cup of coffee at the nearby pub 8)
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20140316 19:43:37< battlestar> hmm, so GENERIC_UNIT macro creates units on top of impassible terrains?
20140316 19:45:45< zookeeper> sounds like you already know
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20140316 19:47:02< battlestar> yeah, do i need a custom macro or is there one in the core around this problem?
20140316 19:49:31< zookeeper> i dunno, probably the former
20140316 19:50:20< zookeeper> just add [+unit] placement=map_passable [/unit] after the macro call
20140316 19:51:04< battlestar> oh that sounds awesome
20140316 19:52:02< battlestar> stupid question but want to make sure, so just place those 3 lines immediately below the macro call right
20140316 19:52:30< zookeeper> yes
20140316 19:53:02< zookeeper> and/or you can turn it into a macro so you can just do {GENERIC_UNIT ...}{WHATEVER}
20140316 19:54:00< battlestar> oh that's even cooler
20140316 19:54:04< battlestar> thanks man
20140316 19:57:04< battlestar> can all tags be manipulated like that? like [+event][/event] ?
20140316 19:58:06< zookeeper> pretty much yes
20140316 19:58:34< battlestar> that's a whole lot of new possibilities to me
20140316 19:59:05< battlestar> are there any examples out there having events being manipulated like that?
20140316 20:00:41< zookeeper> dunno about events, but you can grep for "[+" in mainline, there's plenty of uses there
20140316 20:01:10< zookeeper> well... in campaigns it seems they're almost exclusively cases of [+unit]
20140316 20:01:57< zookeeper> so, no, there's no [+event]s in mainline
20140316 20:02:56< battlestar> I've only seen and been using them for advanced abilities
20140316 20:03:16< battlestar> with [+unit]
20140316 20:03:43< battlestar> I don't even know how events would react to being manipulated like that
20140316 20:03:53< zookeeper> just like any other tag
20140316 20:04:07< zookeeper> no difference
20140316 20:05:18< battlestar> i'm thinking in conjunction with fire events somehow have the same event have extra bits of code included under different circumstances
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20140316 20:07:04< zookeeper> [tag][/tag][+tag][/tag] is a preprocessor thing, by the time the game actually does anything based on the WML, only one [tag][/tag] remains
20140316 20:08:14< battlestar> ah
20140316 20:08:28< battlestar> so it won't work at all then
20140316 20:08:55< battlestar> and i'd end up with extra [+tag][/tag] laying around so it probably won't run very well
20140316 20:09:59< zookeeper> well i have no idea what you're talking about so can't say much
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20140316 20:11:12< battlestar> hmm what if I make an event without id, runs once, include in a macro, then under different circumstances add different [+event][/event], that sounds like it should work to me
20140316 20:12:01< battlestar> for example for a code that includes alternative endings to a set of events
20140316 20:14:38< battlestar> I just have overactive imaginations
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20140316 20:46:48< celticminstrel> WML is rather unsuitable for events, honestly.
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20140316 21:09:31< battlestar> siddh: Hi
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20140316 21:11:09< siddh^^> ops I got disconnected
20140316 21:11:20< siddh^^> anyway I checked out the hell faction 
20140316 21:11:48< siddh^^> first impression is that it's gonna have a tough time vs Undead because of extreme arcane/cold weaknesses
20140316 21:12:17< siddh^^> also the backstabbing unit probably needs to have higher damage unless the backstab multiplier is higher than normal (which I didnt check)
20140316 21:12:47< siddh^^> and the Djinn seems quite above par for default
20140316 21:13:18< battlestar> i see
20140316 21:13:31< siddh^^> although it's only 25hps 
20140316 21:13:48< siddh^^> well im not sure but those are my first impressions 
20140316 21:13:58< siddh^^> for balance issues that is 
20140316 21:14:15< battlestar> let me smooth out the resistances more first, less extreme resistance and vulnerabilities
20140316 21:14:38< siddh^^> oh I didnt mean you should do that immediately just first thoughts :D
20140316 21:14:57< battlestar> want to try it out first?
20140316 21:15:25< battlestar> I have no experience in how to approach balance testing
20140316 21:15:31< siddh^^> for more serious look into it I'd have to put them into excel or something
20140316 21:15:32< siddh^^> :D
20140316 21:16:08< siddh^^> well basically you got opposition, "how does this unit do vs that unit" and then kind of like averages "how much hps you can get for X gold" and "how good the unit is otherwise compared to it's hp/cost value" 
20140316 21:17:43< siddh^^> and it also requires a bit of a holistic approach
20140316 21:18:32< tdk27> the best way to test balance in the long run is basically lots of games against the other factions it's being balanced against
20140316 21:18:38< siddh^^> yeah that's true
20140316 21:18:52< siddh^^> but for that you need good players 
20140316 21:18:53< tdk27> as the overall details of a faction can make an apparently OP unit pretty balanced
20140316 21:19:07< tdk27> (or in reverse, an apparentl yovercosted unit pretty balanced)
20140316 21:19:16< siddh^^> yeah game theoretically 
20140316 21:19:33< siddh^^> if you have a good unit, then that means your opponent knows you're more ikely to use that unit, and it makes playing agianst that choice a betetr choice
20140316 21:19:52< siddh^^> but nevertheless it reduces teh amount of things your opponent could be doing, if you have a strong unit
20140316 21:20:20< tdk27> not just that - a faction of primarily cavalry units shouldn't also get cheap infantry - their spearproof troops are a way of shoring up the major weakness, os have to be proportionally more expensive
20140316 21:20:20< siddh^^> which is equivalent to advantage, but whether or not that position makes your faction stronger than the opposing faction isn't solved yet, and it's like you said
20140316 21:20:25< battlestar> yeah in this faction there are some stuff that are pretty extreme so it makes unit choice important
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20140316 21:21:19< siddh^^> for an example when you play against orcs
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20140316 21:21:40< siddh^^> you can be fairly confident they have not purchased wolf riders with all their money, or nagas with all their money, or archers with all their money.. etc 
20140316 21:22:13< siddh> yo battlestar
20140316 21:22:13< siddh> you here? :D
20140316 21:22:13< siddh> you wrote on forums you'd be interested in finding someone to help balance your faction with default
20140316 21:22:14< siddh^^> but then making a similar statement about trolls and grunts doesnt work
20140316 21:22:17< siddh^^> oh
20140316 21:22:26< battlestar> yeah i'm reading what you are saying
20140316 21:22:32< siddh^^> loosk like i was laggin pretty ad there
20140316 21:22:52< battlestar> not really, just reading and thinking
20140316 21:23:47< battlestar> you want to meet up in the multiplayer server?
20140316 21:24:01< siddh^^> I'm gonna make some coffee and after that smoke a cigarette
20140316 21:24:09< siddh^^> after that sure
20140316 21:24:34< battlestar> ok just beep my name here when you're ready
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20140316 21:26:41< battlestar> are you interested in helping too, tdk27?
20140316 21:27:44< siddh> with unit opposition there's also 
20140316 21:27:59< siddh> tdk is probably good at that stuff, I'm guessing
20140316 21:28:22< siddh> anyway with unit opposition there's also this mind game you could play which is like.. If you would know what your opponent recruits, then can you get an advantage?
20140316 21:28:28< siddh> and the same in reverse
20140316 21:28:42< siddh> what units would he want to use against this faction? 
20140316 21:28:50< siddh> and what units would you like to use?
20140316 21:28:54< battlestar> yeah
20140316 21:29:36< battlestar> we're going to need to make a lot of changes to this faction
20140316 21:30:17< siddh> probably, but the core is that you have a theme
20140316 21:30:26< siddh> you've have an idea what the units should be like, thematically
20140316 21:30:39< siddh> and you've also done graphics.. like that's the important part in my opinion
20140316 21:30:54< siddh> but having ideas of how the dynamic works, like what's the advantage of this faction or style of play
20140316 21:31:04< siddh> that's hard to come up with
20140316 21:31:12< siddh> but once it's resolved then just 
20140316 21:31:23< siddh> changing the numbers so to speak is more like trivial but perhaps takes time
20140316 21:31:53< battlestar> in general, more hp, less evade, higher attack, more battle thirsty race
20140316 21:33:03< battlestar> there is one ability that makes the unit harms itself when not in battle
20140316 21:34:31< siddh> yeah I noticed "self-mutilation" :D
20140316 21:34:40< siddh> combined with regenerates, I think that was interesting 
20140316 21:34:57< siddh> so you would regen 2 hp if not in combat, and 8 if you attacked last turn, if I understood correctly?
20140316 21:35:11< battlestar> when in battle it gives them an edge, you lose 2hp if not in combat
20140316 21:35:21< battlestar> supposedly
20140316 21:35:41< battlestar> they have regen 4 hp instead of 8
20140316 21:36:01< siddh> kk yeah that makes sense
20140316 21:36:07< battlestar> i know the info takes you to the 8hp description
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20140316 21:37:37< battlestar> wolves in a pack can be pretty high attack too
20140316 21:38:37< battlestar> and I was thinking you could use cement as a mean of defense
20140316 21:39:04< siddh> yeah for the wolf I thought nearest point of comparison is probably gryphon 
20140316 21:39:11< siddh> except that gryphon has more free movement 
20140316 21:39:46< siddh> and the wolf has a lot more hps 
20140316 21:40:27< battlestar> i think i gave she devils lots of movements
20140316 21:40:56< battlestar> movement wise demons are more like dwarves
20140316 21:42:21< siddh> the fiend I think best point of comparison is grunt
20140316 21:43:03< siddh> both have 5 movement, fiend costs 13 gold, grunt 12 gold, fiend has 37 hp, grunt has 38 hp, both have movecost 1 on hills
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20140316 21:43:26< battlestar> yeah
20140316 21:43:37< siddh> they have the same base damage and type (3-6) and (9-2) but 9-2 is better because allows dealing damage faster
20140316 21:43:58< siddh> but you might have higher step up from damage bonuses on teh 3-6 attack (for an example if you go to 4-6 then it's 24 dmg while 9-2 goes to 20 dmg)
20140316 21:44:20< siddh> meanwhile that depends on if you get geometric or constant incremenet to dmg (for axample strong trait is constant, while chaotic is geometric)
20140316 21:44:53< siddh> but then.. Fiend has serious weakness on arcane/cold
20140316 21:44:55< tdk27> also 3-6 has a less spread out damage curve, which is helpful occasionally (partiuclarly against hard to hit enemies)
20140316 21:45:09< siddh> otherwise the strong trait might make it OP if it can get it
20140316 21:45:15< siddh> yeah that's true 
20140316 21:45:24< siddh> the effect of chance on combat is different
20140316 21:45:57< siddh> for an example grunt gets full dmg vs 40% def with probability 36%
20140316 21:46:11< siddh> while 3-6 has 2.7% for the same
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20140316 21:46:23< siddh> approximately I didnt calc it out 
20140316 21:46:31< siddh> but missing vs 60% would also have the same probabilities
20140316 21:47:21< tdk27> it's partially a matter of playstyle - some people prefer better chances of max damage with teh cost of a better chance of no damage, otehr people prefer almost always getting average damage
20140316 21:47:27< siddh> and for geometric increments or decrements you've to consider congruence, as in 
20140316 21:47:36< siddh> do you get extra from decimals, or do you lose from decimals
20140316 21:47:52< siddh> good example of this I believe is Elf Fighter vs -30% blade like the rogue units have
20140316 21:47:59< siddh> strong elf fighter gets congruent bonus while non-strong fighter doesnt
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20140316 21:48:17< battlestar> what's a congruent bonus
20140316 21:48:21< siddh> it's like 
20140316 21:48:34< tdk27> in this case I think siddh is referring to enough of a bonus to tip you from rounding down to rounding up
20140316 21:48:34< siddh> if you get 50% damage bonus for 1 damage
20140316 21:48:37< siddh> and you round up from 1.5 
20140316 21:48:48< siddh> you get 100% damage increment instead of 50%
20140316 21:49:12< battlestar> ah
20140316 21:51:05< siddh> for an example the 3 damage goes to 2 during unfavorable time of day
20140316 21:51:25< siddh> so instead of -25% decrease it gets -33%
20140316 21:51:45< battlestar> yeah
20140316 21:54:23< siddh> hmm looks like the demons advance into different types of demons which have assumably differnt types of resistances?
20140316 21:54:36< siddh> like I'm guessing "frost demon" has higher cold resistance?
20140316 21:54:41< battlestar> yeah
20140316 21:54:52< siddh> but the problem for balancing for multiplayer games is that you need to put 90% of focus on level 1 units
20140316 21:55:19< siddh> so in that respect is' kind of like all units have huge cold penalty, except the hell hound
20140316 21:55:38< siddh> but in campaigns the level ups become important 
20140316 21:55:47< battlestar> so that makes frost demons much less useful
20140316 21:55:54< battlestar> in pvp
20140316 21:56:31< siddh> normally you're not gonna have level 2 units in multiplayer games, until you level something up
20140316 21:56:45< battlestar> yeah i hadn't thought about that
20140316 21:56:51< siddh> so need to focus on the level1 units for balance
20140316 21:58:04< battlestar> maybe degrade frost from lvl 2 to 1 and be available from start
20140316 21:58:31< battlestar> they're one of the few units with ranged attack
20140316 21:58:42< siddh> hmm well it's complicated 
20140316 21:58:45< siddh> if you want to balance this for default
20140316 21:58:59< siddh> then cold dmg is basically 1 faction
20140316 21:58:59< battlestar> yeah balancing against default
20140316 21:59:14< siddh> so when you look at cold damage "this is weakness against undead faction"
20140316 21:59:25< siddh> but not a weakness against the other factions 
20140316 21:59:30< battlestar> ah
20140316 21:59:33< siddh> well drakes got saurians 
20140316 21:59:41< siddh> but primarily undead 
20140316 22:00:06< siddh> so for an example drakes got a cold weakness
20140316 22:00:24< siddh> but they deal with undead by.. being lawful. So you attack during the day, and dont fight during the night
20140316 22:00:32< siddh> for other factions they have piercing resistance weakness
20140316 22:01:06< siddh> but all units are somewhat protected vs blade and impact, except the saurians, but they're chaotic
20140316 22:02:44< siddh> and they have piercing resistance while the drakes dont
20140316 22:02:52< battlestar> yeah demons ended up with mostly blade damage
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20140316 22:03:39< battlestar> guess jinns got fire attack
20140316 22:04:26< siddh> yeah that's another problem 
20140316 22:04:35< siddh> you got blade or fire dmg on all level 1 units
20140316 22:04:46< siddh> so for an example that means trouble vs drakes
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20140316 22:07:08< battlestar> yeah, so probably more well rounded if I bring frost demon into lvl 1 units
20140316 22:08:56< siddh> yea
20140316 22:09:11< siddh> I think it's a good rule of thumb that you should have 3 different types of damage available to you
20140316 22:13:18< battlestar> ok that's done
20140316 22:15:28< battlestar> going to reupload
20140316 22:16:34< battlestar> done
20140316 22:18:32< siddh> battlestar think u need to make them recruitable also
20140316 22:19:16< battlestar> hmm not recruitable?
20140316 22:20:20< battlestar> oh here it is
20140316 22:22:07< battlestar> reuploaded
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20140316 22:24:28< siddh> kk
20140316 22:24:55< siddh> well for the problem of having highly pronounced cold resistance weakness this works a little 
20140316 22:25:13< siddh> but they also have arcane weakenss and the primary unit to use cold dmg is DA and it also has an arcane attack, although it's weaker
20140316 22:25:33< siddh> same goes for ghosts melee attack
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20140316 22:25:57< siddh> the frost demon does add impact and cold dmg to the list though 
20140316 22:26:14< battlestar> then ice demons can be less vulnerable to arcane
20140316 22:26:32< siddh> but it has 4 movements and for the primary problem of having fire+blade (drakes)
20140316 22:26:40< siddh> and it has a firedmg weakness 
20140316 22:27:19< siddh> yeah I think that's a good idea, the arcane resitsance change. So in a sense having the frost demon doesnt solve either problem very well, but if u increase arcane resistance then it helps a lot vs teh undead problem
20140316 22:28:27< battlestar> so frost demons will be a little vulnerable to arcane, will increase its hp and decrease attack
20140316 22:28:38< siddh> no what i mean is that
20140316 22:29:04< siddh> if you increase the arcane resistance to liek 10% it already makes it usable vs undead's adepts and ghosts
20140316 22:29:11< siddh> but it doesnt work vs drakes
20140316 22:29:17< siddh> because it has fire weakness and it's slow
20140316 22:29:26< battlestar> ok 
20140316 22:30:03< battlestar> what if you use more fire demons against drakes
20140316 22:30:07< siddh> drakes have advantage vs slow units, and they deal fire dmg.. so you cant really use the frost demon to fix your blade+fire dmg types, which cant really defeat the drakes. If they could then you'd have to have some otherwise balance breakingly strong advantages. But they could be balanced with disadvantages
20140316 22:30:41< siddh> well drakes dont deal firedmg primarily, but they have access to it
20140316 22:30:52< siddh> meanwhile all drakes are resistant to fire and blade, but not so much blade as they're resistant to fire
20140316 22:31:34< battlestar> hmm
20140316 22:35:14< battlestar> have lilins kiss a drake.
20140316 22:37:05< siddh> anyway once you have worked out the balance schematic roughly then I recommend asking a better player than me for finetuning
20140316 22:37:34< siddh> I tend to be the kind of personality that I think about ideas loosely in the abstract and I'm not so good at specific adaptations
20140316 22:38:12< battlestar> yeah right now we need the balance schematics first
20140316 22:38:27< battlestar> I'm not sure what to do against drakes
20140316 22:39:12< battlestar> but lilins do have non-retaliation skill
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20140316 22:40:10< siddh> lilins have too low dmg btw
20140316 22:40:30< battlestar> make it 5-2?
20140316 22:40:48< siddh> well I'm not sure about how to do it exactly
20140316 22:41:00< siddh> they have big advantage of being very mobile, have high defense everywhere
20140316 22:41:16< battlestar> but expensive
20140316 22:41:24< siddh> yea
20140316 22:41:33< battlestar> too expensive
20140316 22:41:38< siddh> anyway 5-1 even with backstab is just 10 dmg
20140316 22:41:45< siddh> but if u put it at 5-2 then it's 20 dmg already
20140316 22:41:53< siddh> lower than other backstabbers (liek thief which is 4-3)
20140316 22:42:02< siddh> but then it has those other advantages 
20140316 22:42:15< siddh> and it is costly :D
20140316 22:42:41< battlestar> lowered to 20 cost
20140316 22:43:57-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: bhldev__, johndh, Ivanovic, Fortescue, vultraz
20140316 22:44:08< siddh> basically right now the faction in my opinion works like this:
20140316 22:44:25< siddh> you use primarily fiends except if u get undead as opponent, and drakes are a little questionable too
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20140316 22:44:49< siddh> and basically you play with them like you were playing with grunts
20140316 22:45:37< siddh> those wolves / lilins would be scouting units for grabbing some villages and seeing what the opponent is upto, as well as being used to potentially trap your opponent's units so they cant retreat, or grab villages
20140316 22:45:52< siddh> the hell hound though has a lot of HPs and is therefore kind of strong
20140316 22:46:10< siddh> lilin is not so strong but it has the skirmisher ability and high defense, so you would just use it to stop opponent from retreating
20140316 22:46:48< siddh> and you might have those djinns and use them in a similar fashion as you would use archers or mages, except that they're melee, but their other functions are similar, and it's quite fast
20140316 22:47:27< siddh> oh well 
20140316 22:47:27< battlestar> i could add an arcane attack to djinns
20140316 22:47:36< siddh> if you play vs undead then those hellhounds are probably gonna win the game immediately
20140316 22:47:46< siddh> :D
20140316 22:47:53< battlestar> how come?
20140316 22:48:07< battlestar> oh that bite is fire
20140316 22:48:19< siddh> and they dont have the cold penalty and they're more mobile than the adepts
20140316 22:48:37< battlestar> so decrease the attck?
20140316 22:48:52< siddh> I'm not sure I'd have to thinik about it thoroughly
20140316 22:49:28< battlestar> lower attack with higher attack number could push player to use multiple wolves in a pack
20140316 22:50:26< siddh> Yeah I think it might be useful to try and make them closer to a typical scout profile
20140316 22:50:33< battlestar> i used 7 because that was the bite attack value from goblins
20140316 22:50:41< siddh> in that case the fire dmg / undead opposition isn't so bad 
20140316 22:51:31< battlestar> i'm thinking 4-3 attack
20140316 22:51:54< siddh> well I think you could comapre it to the wolf rider
20140316 22:52:17< siddh> it is wolf rider has only 5-3 attack so it's low dmg
20140316 22:52:22< battlestar> 5-3 sounds good
20140316 22:52:23< siddh> costs 17 and has 8 movement 
20140316 22:52:38< siddh> has less hps but is cheaper
20140316 22:54:58< battlestar> 5 wolves together makes each of the wolves attack like a lvl 2 at least ^^
20140316 22:55:13< siddh> hmm how does the pack fury work exactly?
20140316 22:55:25< battlestar> each adjacent wolf adds 1 attack
20140316 22:55:29< battlestar> so 5-3 becomes 6-3
20140316 22:55:45< battlestar> two adjacent becomes 7-3
20140316 22:55:47< siddh> hmm yeah that's quite much
20140316 22:56:11< siddh> them being expensive though limits the usefulness of that ability
20140316 22:56:25< battlestar> yeah being expensive is meant to curb that
20140316 22:56:26< siddh> but it's problematic since the effect increases as you recruit more of them
20140316 22:56:44-!- zookeeper2 [~lmsnie@37.35.27.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20140316 22:56:47< siddh> so it easily gets into this.. if u can recruit more than for scouting purposes, tehn you can just recruit more and more
20140316 22:57:07< battlestar> most you can get is +5
20140316 22:57:09< siddh> and you'll end up with the best strategy being having just them :D
20140316 22:57:55< battlestar> but that will cost 150 gold
20140316 22:58:02< siddh> yes but that's not the issue here
20140316 22:58:20< siddh> I mean it does limit that how many times you can get the advantage
20140316 22:58:34< siddh> but the advantage (in my opinion) shouldnt be based on that you must recruit as many as possible
20140316 22:59:47< battlestar> well I can limit the ability to +2 only
20140316 22:59:59< siddh> yeah that would be good
20140316 23:00:58< siddh> if not considering the pack fury stacking up then I think you could go with something like.. set cost to 21 gold, Hps around 40, attack 5-3, and add -20% arcane resistance perhaps
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20140316 23:01:42< battlestar> so it's 20% vulnerability right
20140316 23:01:42< siddh> arcane would mostly mean DAs alternative attack and ghosts melee. but that's important because it makes ghosts a little less bad against the hell hound
20140316 23:02:12< battlestar> okay
20140316 23:03:57< battlestar> okay i have to see if i can actually limit pack fury to +2
20140316 23:05:58< battlestar> hmm it's an [damage] tag, not in any event. so I don't know where some conditions could be applied to
20140316 23:06:41< siddh> hmm
20140316 23:07:04< siddh> I'm quite positive it can be limited but I'm not very good at remembering these commands :D
20140316 23:07:13< siddh> Im sure zookeeper would know instantly
20140316 23:07:27< battlestar> keep saying his name and he'll show up
20140316 23:07:55< battlestar> i think this code needs to be adjusted to a different structure 
20140316 23:08:20< siddh> well it's not that bad since it got a scout profil now it's less feasible to try and mass hounds 
20140316 23:08:27< battlestar> http://pastebin.com/9FEL6EqG
20140316 23:08:40< siddh> rather you'd get 1 or 2 as scouting units and if u get 2 then you got this possibility of attacking with both of them
20140316 23:10:06< battlestar> they can have arcane weakness so they'll be easier dispatched
20140316 23:11:09< siddh> well the -20% is pretty sharp since it doesnt make DAs any better vs them but probably gives ghosts +1 dmg
20140316 23:11:51< siddh> or so I think :D
20140316 23:14:03< battlestar> ok done
20140316 23:15:36< battlestar> vs drakes the best i can think of is maybe add arcane on magical servants
20140316 23:16:16< siddh> I'm not sure about the drake matchup though since you'd probably use the fiend vs them
20140316 23:16:33< battlestar> i'll hold off on making changes in that regards then
20140316 23:17:50< battlestar> any other adjustments before first test run?
20140316 23:18:06< siddh> well let's see gimme a moment to think :D
20140316 23:18:34< battlestar> re-uploaded
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20140316 23:22:22< siddh> I'd recommend putting the extreme cold resistance penalties to -60% max since it's balancewise probably not useful to have even higher penalties
20140316 23:22:53< siddh> then the 20% defense on flat and 10% in forests are also kind of weird
20140316 23:23:37< siddh> you might wanna convert to 30% defense on flat/sand and 20% in forests
20140316 23:23:44< battlestar> okay
20140316 23:24:08< siddh> do you think the magical servant should also have the same defenses on those terrains?
20140316 23:24:30< siddh> i actually misread those first i thought it was 40% on flat and 20% on forest :D
20140316 23:24:32< battlestar> 60 vulnerab should be 160 i think
20140316 23:24:44< battlestar> in the code, i don't remember
20140316 23:24:51< siddh> yeah but for an exmaple the djinn has -110% cold resistance
20140316 23:25:18< siddh> I think it would be easier to cap them at -60% unless you can think of a specific reason to have even more vulnerability?
20140316 23:25:42< siddh> yeah 160 should be -60% resistance, since it's written in terms of "how much damage in percentages"
20140316 23:26:46< battlestar> no, just to make a point they're weak against it lol
20140316 23:26:58< battlestar> got resistances fixed
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20140316 23:29:35< battlestar> moves fixed
20140316 23:29:46-!- Falcon` is now known as falcon`
20140316 23:29:49< battlestar> uploaded
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20140316 23:34:58< siddh> kk :D
20140316 23:38:51< siddh> I'm gona try playing a round of team survival with this faction and see how it goes 
20140316 23:39:20< battlestar> okay, meanwhile i'll be fixing some other codes lol
20140316 23:39:36< battlestar> bugs bugs everywhere
20140316 23:39:39< siddh> oh wow this one leader has charm? :D
20140316 23:40:03< siddh> is there some condition to that? because it may be way OP if it works like normal charm
20140316 23:42:15< siddh> For an example you might make following conditions:
20140316 23:42:25< siddh> The same unit can use the charm attack only 1 per scenario
20140316 23:42:35< siddh> For the charm attack to be usable the target has to be below 20% health
20140316 23:43:24< siddh> and the charm may fail in which case the target simply dies, but the charm remains unusuable for the rest of the scenario
20140316 23:43:37< siddh> after such modifications it might be balanced for player vs player games :D
20140316 23:47:55< battlestar> i took the charm from wesnoth website
20140316 23:48:37< siddh> yeh
20140316 23:48:48< battlestar> it converts males to your side for one turn
20140316 23:48:57< siddh> oh it's just for 1 turn?
20140316 23:49:01< battlestar> yeah
20140316 23:49:08< _8680_> I seem to recall writing a charm weapon special at your request.
20140316 23:49:33< battlestar> yeah, I have those codes
20140316 23:50:06< siddh> hmm well I'm not sure if it's OP then, but at least there should be a level cap so you cant chamr your opponents leader or anything 8)
20140316 23:50:36< battlestar> lol
20140316 23:52:09< siddh> it's very powerful though but there's 30% chance of failing with the magical attack, and only after that you get to make the attack with the charmed unit. The benefit is then that you can misplace his unit and also that his units will damage each other. That is  also something they cant really plan for effectively, since he is trying to pick units to use aganist you, not units that are not usable against themselves
20140316 23:52:26< siddh> the damage that they deal to each other though is somewhat comparable to that you would deal dmg directly to the unit that the charmed unit deals dmg to
20140316 23:52:28< battlestar> 8680: some lua codes we had used to work perfectly but i don't know what changed and some stopped working, I even kept on using the old version of wesnoth we used
20140316 23:52:40< siddh> and the charming unit also takes dmg from the unit it is trying to charm
20140316 23:52:59< siddh> so it's kind of hard to figure out what exactly makes a charm attack balanced 
20140316 23:53:12< siddh> but it sure helps if it's on a level 2 units and can only work on level 1 units
20140316 23:53:18< _8680_> Hm, right, I remember you were having some problems with my stuff. Did I ever fix that, or did I forget?
20140316 23:53:21< siddh> because then you're changing a level 2 units atack for a level 1 units attack on the opponents side
20140316 23:53:36< siddh> with a 30% chance of failure
20140316 23:53:55< battlestar> some of the things we completed stopped working
20140316 23:54:01< battlestar> it was really weird
20140316 23:54:14< battlestar> but i was able to modify/replace with wml codes
20140316 23:55:05< battlestar> but i'm sure my campaign/faction still has plenty of your working codes in em
20140316 23:56:16< battlestar> siddh charm is only available to lvl 2 she devils and lvl 1 lilin has a really high exp req
20140316 23:56:29< battlestar> but that does make the lvl 2 leader powerful
20140316 23:57:56< battlestar> i don't know how concept wise to justify charm to be against only lvl 1's though
20140316 23:58:11< battlestar> lvl 2's have better taste in women?
20140316 23:58:48< siddh> they're higher level and have better resist
20140316 23:58:50< siddh> ability
20140316 23:58:50< siddh> :D
20140316 23:59:09< siddh> if you'd change the magical to always has 50% chance of hitting then it might be closer to balanced
20140316 23:59:22< siddh> but probably still a little too good
20140316 23:59:23< _8680_> As I remember it, this “charm” was an explicitly magical effect. Maybe higher-level units have more willpower or are otherwise better able to resist enchantment.
20140316 23:59:56< battlestar> that's true
--- Log closed Mon Mar 17 00:00:16 2014