--- Log opened Mon Mar 17 00:00:16 2014
20140317 00:00:22< battlestar> i can limit it to lvl 1's
20140317 00:00:37< siddh> I also recommend changing the CtH to always 50% instead of 70%
20140317 00:00:51< battlestar> but i can't seem to find where the leader identifier in unit code is
20140317 00:01:12< battlestar> ah canrecruit
20140317 00:02:32< battlestar> is there a core ability for fixed CtH at 50%?
20140317 00:02:51< siddh> nope but creating one isnt too hard 
20140317 00:03:21< battlestar> yeah
20140317 00:03:27< siddh> you can basically copy magical and change the value 
20140317 00:03:29< battlestar> btw charm does still damage the victim
20140317 00:03:39< siddh> 1 point yea
20140317 00:03:44< battlestar> yeah i'm so lazy
20140317 00:03:48< siddh> but anyway there's a lot of factors which make it good
20140317 00:03:57< siddh> you can misplace your opponents unit 
20140317 00:04:04< siddh> which also means putting it to terrain where it has low defense
20140317 00:04:09< siddh> and then make it attack an opponent unit
20140317 00:04:12< siddh> and taking high damage in retaliation
20140317 00:04:26< battlestar> i remember that cement ability had fixed 50% before i changed it
20140317 00:04:30< siddh> it makes it harder for opponent to select recruits
20140317 00:04:41< siddh> also in a sense damage is doubled because opponent units damage each other
20140317 00:04:48< siddh> in addition to that your total number of moves you could make
20140317 00:04:59< siddh> goes up by the amount of level 1 units you could charm
20140317 00:05:05< siddh> it's seriously very good 
20140317 00:05:10< battlestar> nice
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20140317 00:05:15< siddh> but even a change like 70->50 puts it closer to balanced since
20140317 00:05:21< siddh> then you're more likely to take retal dmg on your level2 unit
20140317 00:05:34< siddh> you're not using a level2 unit attack otherwise so you're losing that as opportunity cost
20140317 00:06:20< siddh> but I'm not sure if that's enough or if it's still too good
20140317 00:06:28< battlestar> how about taking off magical al-together or is fixing hit chance at 50% better
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20140317 00:07:04< siddh> fixing at 50% i think
20140317 00:07:09< battlestar> okay
20140317 00:07:13< siddh> it's too reliable against units with low defense otherwise
20140317 00:07:33< siddh> And im guessing it doesnt work on units in villages anyway 
20140317 00:07:37< siddh> but oh
20140317 00:07:44< siddh> it's still too good there's no way around it :D
20140317 00:08:18< battlestar> it does work on units in villages... but village probably won't change side, i don't know how that actually will react
20140317 00:08:38< siddh> myea I forgot about that you can also break enemy zoc lines with it
20140317 00:08:52< siddh> which totally makes it OP even with that change
20140317 00:09:13< battlestar> lol so fix it at 40%?
20140317 00:09:25< siddh> well it sure is better then
20140317 00:09:44< siddh> but probably not good enough. and im not sure it's moodwise good to have attacks that probably wont work
20140317 00:09:57< siddh> liek if u put it at 5% then yea it sure is balanced but how fun is that?
20140317 00:11:38< battlestar> change=50%-arcane resist
20140317 00:11:41< battlestar> chance*
20140317 00:12:10< battlestar> nevermind that, too complicated to code lol
20140317 00:12:20< siddh> that'd be interesting
20140317 00:12:24< siddh> but yeah 
20140317 00:12:33< siddh> another way would be to weaken the unit that has the attack
20140317 00:12:40< siddh> but it's not such a good idea on leader units
20140317 00:12:55< battlestar> it depends on if event names allows me to do it
20140317 00:13:13< battlestar> and i don't know what a negative hit chance will do
20140317 00:13:52< battlestar> okay will just take succubus out of leader list and make her weaker
20140317 00:14:32< battlestar> undead don't have to worry about it
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20140317 00:17:04< battlestar> what do you call a cth fixed at 50%?
20140317 00:17:23< battlestar> "coin flip"?
20140317 00:18:07< siddh> dont need to call it anything 
20140317 00:18:23< siddh> you can just leave it hidden and add it to charm's description that the chance is 50%
20140317 00:21:20< battlestar> ok that's done
20140317 00:21:47< battlestar> took off 10 hp
20140317 00:22:28< battlestar> off leader list
20140317 00:22:43< siddh> yeah that's good it was way too mobile for a leader anyway :D
20140317 00:23:26< siddh> I mean the fastest leader is drake warrior with flight and 6 MP, but now it would've been succubus with 7 MP, Flight, skirmisher and charm.. Humm. :D
20140317 00:23:42< siddh> anyway i didnt look at the leaders otherwise yet
20140317 00:25:22< battlestar> oh i didn't update the cement ability
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20140317 00:28:23< battlestar> reauploaded
20140317 00:33:56< siddh> hmm what's the cement ability?
20140317 00:36:15< battlestar> like charm but enemy is petrified instead
20140317 00:36:33< siddh> kk, for 1 turn?
20140317 00:36:36< battlestar> yeah
20140317 00:36:51< battlestar> then they pop out of the stone fresh like a monkey
20140317 00:37:11< siddh> well I dunno I think the faction is now somewhat more balanced to go with default, but probably needs quite a lot of tweaking still
20140317 00:38:07< battlestar> indeed
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20140317 00:40:24< siddh> but you can play games and go from there, maybe you'll get ideas too :)
20140317 00:40:39< battlestar> yeah
20140317 00:42:36< battlestar> ok the charm filter works against only lvl 1 now
20140317 00:43:21< battlestar> actually... charm doesn't even last 1 turn
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20140317 00:45:02< battlestar> which makes it different based on what number player you are
20140317 00:45:09< battlestar> which is bad
20140317 00:53:09< siddh> I gotta go to bed now.. Good luck finishing your faction, I hope it works out alright :)
20140317 00:53:22< siddh> and GN everyone
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20140317 00:56:46< battlestar> night
20140317 00:57:12< battlestar> thanks for your help
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20140317 12:25:57< Siddh> hello
20140317 12:26:18< Siddh> Can you filter for schedule by id?
20140317 12:26:18< Siddh> :D
20140317 12:27:21< zookeeper> i could check, but it wouldn't take any less time than if you did
20140317 12:27:34< Siddh> oh :)
20140317 12:29:51< Siddh> yes it can be done! great
20140317 12:30:18< Siddh> I'm gonna make it so all units do 30% more dmg in melee combat during the blood moon 
20140317 12:30:22< Siddh> you think that's ok? :D
20140317 12:30:35< Siddh> or maybe 25% but since i put 30% for darkest hour thought I could use the same value
20140317 12:34:41< Siddh> any suggestions what special might be with the following events: Starnight, silverynight, unnatural night/day when the sun is gone but all other celestial objects are creating light and eclipse? :D
20140317 12:36:20< Siddh> gotta create some formula for lawful bonuses
20140317 12:39:27< Siddh> myea I think 30% is ok, it's a lot and gives advantage to the side with initiative, but at least everyone is doing more dmg so it's not so bad
20140317 12:39:57< Siddh> the darkest hour 30 chaotic bonus though is rather questionable since it's decisive, but that's how it's gonna be
20140317 12:41:23< Siddh> Btw for mp games when "starting time is set as random"
20140317 12:41:39< Siddh> does it mean that the starting time randomly picks a macro for default schedules, like dawn, first watch..
20140317 12:41:50< Siddh> and if you have a corresponding macro in your schedule, then random start time can work?
20140317 12:42:09< zookeeper> "picks a macro" doesn't make any sense at all ever anywhere
20140317 12:42:13< Siddh> I was having some bug with that 
20140317 12:42:21< Siddh> well 
20140317 12:42:33< zookeeper> i'm sure it just picks a random ToD from the scenario's schedule
20140317 12:42:48< Siddh> it does? well that's great
20140317 12:42:58< Siddh> does it mean I can remove the {DAWN} and such from the schedule.cfg?
20140317 12:43:10< zookeeper> i don't know, but it's the only possibility that i can think of which would make any sense at all.
20140317 12:43:49< zookeeper> i can't say because i don't know how you want to organize your WML. you never need to use a single macro if you don't want to.
20140317 12:44:29< Siddh> yeah the point is that I just want to make the schedule work normally
20140317 12:44:38< Siddh> but I dont know what are all those things that these macros in default schedule are linked to
20140317 12:44:46< Siddh> like for an example it has a macro for "dawn"
20140317 12:44:58< Siddh> which means it picks a starting time with dawn as first ToD in the schedule
20140317 12:45:14< Siddh> so since there's 1 for each time of day, it would be possible that the "random start time" was using those macroes
20140317 12:45:24< Siddh> but if it doesnt then i dont need them I guess
20140317 12:49:05< Siddh> btw wanna check out the schedule images and tell me what you think about them? :D Or do you have better things to do
20140317 12:49:27< zookeeper> i doubt i'll have anything in particular to say
20140317 12:49:44< Siddh> oh :D
20140317 12:51:43< Siddh> I think overall the system is a little to active
20140317 12:51:54< Siddh> but it's gonna have to do 
20140317 12:52:11< Siddh> the only real way to avoid that would be to make even a longer cycle if I wanted to have a similar number of special events
20140317 12:55:03< Siddh> or perhaps not the only way 
20140317 12:55:19< Siddh> sharpening the celestial object's cycles with some more skill would help to
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20140317 13:45:47< Siddh> btw zookeeper the dawn etc. macroes seem to be necessary for the schedules to work
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20140317 13:47:12< Soliton> macros just get replaced by their definition. it's a simple text substitution. so you can always just use what the macros are defined to instead.
20140317 13:50:05< Siddh> yea
20140317 13:50:36< Siddh> however if I removed the macroes then it gives an error that they're missing
20140317 13:53:24< Soliton> obviously if the macros are used and you remove them...
20140317 13:53:28< Siddh> but it doesnt matter it seems to work for the most part as longa s they're there
20140317 13:53:43< Siddh> yes but the point is that i dont know if multiplayer uses macro for "dawn" by default or not
20140317 13:54:35< Soliton> what's "multiplayer" here?
20140317 13:54:48< Siddh> you know the schedule contains definition for default schedule, and it also contains definitions for different starting times of the schedule, which are essentially shifted copies of the default schedule
20140317 13:55:09< Siddh> so it would be possible "dawn" and those specific macroes are only used when someone wants to use an exact starting time
20140317 13:55:17< Siddh> and the random starting time system would work without them
20140317 13:55:35< Siddh> Well I dunno I just got some error because I removed them, so I put them back.. No big deal
20140317 13:55:48< Siddh> it could it would've worked anyway
20140317 13:58:34< Siddh> it's done and the blood moon thing works ok aint gonna bother with the schedule for a while now :D
20140317 13:59:10< Soliton> i can't really make sense of what you're saying but if you're using a macro that depends on other macros to work (i.e. schedule macros depending on DAWN etc) then that will not work indeed.
20140317 13:59:44< Siddh> in the default schedule file
20140317 13:59:51< Siddh> there's the definition for the default schedule
20140317 14:00:02< Siddh> starts from schedule item #1 and ends with schedule item #n
20140317 14:00:17< Siddh> there's also an additional macro for each and every other possible starting time 
20140317 14:00:28< Siddh> like definition for default schedule with starting time #2
20140317 14:00:36< Siddh> and the content is the default schedule, with the given starting time
20140317 14:00:44< Siddh> but instead of #2 we have 
20140317 14:00:50< Siddh> dawn, morning, afternoon, etc
20140317 14:01:01< Siddh> I dont have morning or afternoon in my schedule
20140317 14:01:11< Siddh> but if I remove the macro for morning or afternoon, it gives an error
20140317 14:01:14< Siddh> kk
20140317 14:02:23< Siddh> so when it comes to hte "random start time" in multiplayer games it could be using these ready made macros
20140317 14:02:39< Soliton> of course, you can't just remove random bits and expect it to work. why are you editing core macros anyway?
20140317 14:02:55< Siddh> I'm not editing core macros but instead creating a schedule for my own era
20140317 14:03:11< Soliton> the random start time feature has nothing to do with macros.
20140317 14:03:22< Siddh> alright so that would work anyway
20140317 14:03:45< Siddh> but you still get an error if you dont have a dawn/morning, etc, macro there in the custom schedule, or at least i got one
20140317 14:04:32< zookeeper> then you're doing something wrong
20140317 14:04:34< Soliton> well, i could repeat that it has nothing to do with the macro but it's probably futile at this point.
20140317 14:04:35< zookeeper> what that is, i cannot say
20140317 14:05:31< Soliton> it's possible that the random start time feature expects specific [time]s in your schedule though.
20140317 14:05:55< Siddh> yeah Soliton now it's starting to sound like I got it and you didn't
20140317 14:05:56< zookeeper> possible, but that'd mean it's coded all wrong
20140317 14:06:04< Siddh> yeah, zookeeper I thought so too
20140317 14:06:43< Siddh> :D
20140317 14:06:45< Siddh> sorry :D
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20140317 14:09:15< Soliton> as it turns out the random start time feature does not depend on any specific [time].
20140317 14:09:59< zookeeper> i was looking at the code too, but all i found was tons and tons of boilerplate code and nothing substantial
20140317 14:09:59< Siddh> kk
20140317 14:10:07< zookeeper> now i really don't want to get into wesnoth coding
20140317 14:10:23< Siddh> but the way teh default schedule is made suggests that it's not very smartly done
20140317 14:10:28< Siddh> but that might be to save time 
20140317 14:10:55< Soliton> what suggests that?
20140317 14:11:02< Siddh> well if you look at the core schedule
20140317 14:11:07< Siddh> .cfg
20140317 14:11:40< Siddh> oh wait it's different in the newer version!
20140317 14:12:06< Soliton> zookeeper: a quick grep found the tod_manager that has the random start time logic in it. :-P
20140317 14:12:11< Siddh> wel if you look at the schedule.cfg from the stable version
20140317 14:12:31< Siddh> then.. that.. suggests it's not very smatrly done but the problem is totally fixed in the developement version
20140317 14:12:34< Siddh> xD
20140317 14:12:50< zookeeper> you make no sense whatsoever
20140317 14:12:54< Soliton> zookeeper: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/8aa0febfde421f4f2a986679e0a9912d0d6277d0/src/tod_manager.cpp#L351
20140317 14:13:02< Siddh> you got development / stable version?
20140317 14:13:07< zookeeper> Soliton, fine, fine
20140317 14:13:08< Siddh> open schedule.cfg and you see what i mean
20140317 14:13:09< zookeeper> both
20140317 14:13:12< zookeeper> and no, i don't
20140317 14:13:14< Siddh> compare them
20140317 14:13:33< zookeeper> i have
20140317 14:13:40< Siddh> kk so you get it? :D
20140317 14:13:43< zookeeper> no
20140317 14:13:46< Siddh> 8[
20140317 14:15:02< Siddh> but anyway this explains it and there's no problem anymore
20140317 14:21:19< Siddh> anyway the random starting time uses those macroes 
20140317 14:22:02< Siddh> nope it doesnt
20140317 14:22:29< zookeeper> ...
20140317 14:22:35< Siddh> instead I got a random starting time that coincided with the macroed starting times 4 times in a row
20140317 14:22:50< Siddh> but 5th time it was different
20140317 14:22:50< Siddh> :D
20140317 14:23:23< Siddh> probability 0.01%
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20140317 14:49:23< Siddh> anyone wanna play a game with my era for testing? :D
20140317 14:50:45< Siddh> it should be balanced to be playable but requires to know how it works
20140317 14:51:06< Siddh> I mean it's imbalanced but a bigger problem is not knowing the era
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20140317 16:01:16< Siddh> hmm
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20140317 17:55:31< Siddh> hmm
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20140317 18:00:14< Siddh> in a capture event is the unit that captures the village stored in some way
20140317 18:00:25< Siddh> ?
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20140317 18:00:50< zookeeper> in $unit as in all events involving a unit
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20140317 18:01:50< Siddh> kk
20140317 18:02:02< Siddh> alright I think I can do this so let's see if I can without questions ;)
20140317 18:08:33< Siddh> let's see if it works! :)
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20140317 18:10:55< Siddh> it works! it's amazing!
20140317 18:10:56< Siddh> :DD
20140317 18:23:02< Siddh> I made the macro to stop certain units from being able to capture villages 
20140317 18:23:11< Siddh> which was absolutely necessary for this era to work
20140317 18:23:48< Siddh> because for an example this mage faction has a scout unit which has nightstalk and daystalk, it's otherwise useless as a combat unit, but it is the best scouting unit
20140317 18:24:04< Siddh> of course if it could capture villages it wouldn't work as just a scouting unit
20140317 18:25:12< Siddh> even now it might be necessary to remove zoc and movement point loss from ambush
20140317 18:25:16< Siddh> or the ambush effect
20140317 18:25:34< Siddh> but at least it wont ruin the game with village captures :D
20140317 18:31:03< Siddh> next challenge is fixing the additional damage macroes XP problem :x but that's probably a little too hard 
20140317 18:31:45< Siddh> it would be an event triggered by an event 
20140317 18:31:50< Siddh> so is that possible?
20140317 18:32:22< Siddh> hmm
20140317 18:32:47< Siddh> perhaps it would be easier to resolve if the unit is going to die before doing the harm_unit thing
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20140317 18:35:48< Siddh> luckily harm_unit makes it easier
20140317 18:36:17< Siddh> is it possible to conditionally fire an action from another action?
20140317 18:37:42< Siddh> hmm I'll check the "mindflay" ability it probably had similar stuff in it :D
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20140317 18:46:54< Siddh> I tried asking forums since I can't resolve this :D
20140317 18:57:18< Siddh> the ai doesnt get the inability to capture villages though.:D But it mostly doesnt get anything in the era so it was a lost cause to begin with 
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--- Log closed Tue Mar 18 00:00:18 2014