--- Log opened Tue Apr 08 00:00:17 2014
--- Day changed Tue Apr 08 2014
20140408 00:00:17< iceiceice> hmm i think i see what gfgtdf was saying now though... why would foo["bar"] be interpretted according to the definition for arrays? does the switch `foo -> true` have to happen before this?
20140408 00:01:21< gfgtdf> is it normal that "convert_to_container<std::list<config>>()" givesan erro becasue i should use '> >' instead of '>>' ? msvc didn't comlain.
20140408 00:02:06< AI0867> iceiceice: because that's how operator[] is defined
20140408 00:02:25< iceiceice> unless you overload it?
20140408 00:02:26< AI0867> gfgtdf: that's a C++11 feature
20140408 00:02:43< AI0867> to assume it's the ending of a template rather than a >> operator
20140408 00:02:53< AI0867> in C++98, you have to add the space
20140408 00:03:03< gfgtdf> ah ok.
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20140408 00:04:23< gfgtdf> AI0867: so how does c++11 know whether it is an ending or an opertor ?
20140408 00:04:31< AI0867> iceiceice: to put it differently, if in A[B], B is a const char*, and A can be converted to an integer type, then it can be interpreted as a string index, regardless of what A actually is
20140408 00:04:54< AI0867> gfgtdf: it tries to close any templates first, then tries operator>>
20140408 00:05:02< AI0867> in C++98, operator>> came first
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20140408 00:05:53< iceiceice> AI0867: ok i see now
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20140408 00:06:33< AI0867> if you're lucky, the compiler will complain about ambiguity
20140408 00:07:01< AI0867> if you're unlucky, you did something slightly wrong, your operator[] isn't considered, and everything does the wrong thing, silently
20140408 00:07:23< iceiceice> gfgtdf: i think you should improve some of the commit messages / description of your pull request
20140408 00:07:32< iceiceice> this comment "we don't need the backlog anymore" sounds like a big red flag,
20140408 00:07:45< iceiceice> in fact you've just created a nice class network_adapter that plays that role now
20140408 00:07:51< iceiceice> its not like you competely abolished the backlog idea
20140408 00:08:21< iceiceice> you could also like mention the network_adapter in the PR description, sort of liek a mini changelog for the pull request
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20140408 00:08:44< iceiceice> rather than the PR description being like "i'm fixing some bugs, nothing to see here"
20140408 00:09:22< AI0867> so, the lesson from this is, if your class can be indexed with something that can be implicitly converted to an array (like a C-string), make sure the class can't be implicitly converted to an integer (and a bool is an integer)
20140408 00:09:44< AI0867> and the other way around of course, but in that case it might be what you want
20140408 00:09:57< AI0867> and if it's not, you should reconsider your design
20140408 00:11:07< iceiceice> so we use safe_bool for configs/
20140408 00:11:28< iceiceice> i guess i will look at the definition again
20140408 00:11:47< iceiceice> gfgtdf: i had a second thought about your fix for 21397
20140408 00:12:02< gfgtdf> AI0867: but don't we use code like 'if (const config &msg = cfg.child("message"))' very often ?
20140408 00:12:23< gfgtdf> iceiceice: what dd you think ?
20140408 00:12:24< AI0867> gfgtdf: yes, but config cannot be implicitly converted to a bool
20140408 00:12:25< gfgtdf> did*
20140408 00:12:34< AI0867> it can be implicitly converted to a safe_bool
20140408 00:12:37< iceiceice> gfgtdf: it looks like you are disabling all commands? you just want to use a save_blocker right?
20140408 00:12:48< AI0867> and safe_bool, in this case, is a config*
20140408 00:13:07< AI0867> (config* + const char*) == compile error
20140408 00:13:41< gfgtdf> iceiceice: what exactly does commands_diales block except sves ?
20140408 00:13:53< iceiceice> well i dont know...
20140408 00:13:58< iceiceice> but if it blocks :control for instance
20140408 00:14:00< iceiceice> i would say thats a bad thing
20140408 00:14:03< iceiceice> or :droid
20140408 00:14:17< iceiceice> so one situation is, what if someone puts up a dialog and goes afk during a game
20140408 00:14:36< iceiceice> we'd like ideally for the other players to be able to recover
20140408 00:14:49< iceiceice> blocking a save is one thing, but its not really the best fix
20140408 00:15:05< gfgtdf> did you test wether :driod/:control works properly in this case (without my code)?
20140408 00:15:06< iceiceice> they *should* be able to save
20140408 00:15:29< iceiceice> i dont know if it does or doesnt but idk if its a good idea to disable all commands once this happens, thats all i'm saying
20140408 00:15:55< iceiceice> if anything the "fix" you are talking about is really a bandaid
20140408 00:15:56< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i think we should always be able so save a replay so that in the wirst case er can relaod from the replay even if we are in a invalid state that should work.
20140408 00:16:04< iceiceice> the fix would be to save the "init_side_done_" value to the replay
20140408 00:16:26< iceiceice> an appropriate bandaid would be like, put a saveblocker here,
20140408 00:16:34< iceiceice> at least they wont think they saved the game and end up with an invalid replay
20140408 00:16:54< iceiceice> but disabling all commands, sounds like, someone spraine dtheir ankel and you put them in a full body cast
20140408 00:17:37< iceiceice> maybe other commands are broken in this case too and need a bandaid, but i dont think we know if thats the case right now
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20140408 00:26:36< gfgtdf> iceiceice: im not sure how save_blocker works, and a cannot use a simple local object in this case.
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20140408 00:28:23< iceiceice> gfgtdf: i think save_blocker is a very simple struct
20140408 00:28:27< gfgtdf> iceiceice: especialy i think (im not sure) the game with crach if there are exist 2 save_blocker s at the same time, 
20140408 00:28:33< gfgtdf> crash*
20140408 00:28:37< iceiceice> i think its just a semaphore basically
20140408 00:28:47< iceiceice> whenever a save_blocker is created a counter goes up
20140408 00:28:51< iceiceice> when it is destroyed it goes down
20140408 00:28:55< iceiceice> you cant save unless the counter is 0
20140408 00:28:56< gfgtdf> iceiceice: no the opposite
20140408 00:29:09< iceiceice> fine not a semaphore but similar 
20140408 00:29:18< iceiceice> idk if u call this a mutex?
20140408 00:29:24< iceiceice> the code is very short you will understand it i think
20140408 00:29:40< iceiceice> we have some other blocker objects like this, like display locker and such
20140408 00:30:12< iceiceice> i implemented blindfold in a similar manner
20140408 00:30:25< gfgtdf> if the counter is null, it wont go down any further, http://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL_SemWait which is called in the contructor, waits until the value is positive but it onyl gets positive in teh destructort
20140408 00:30:47< iceiceice> ok i shouldnt have mentioned semaphore
20140408 00:31:15< gfgtdf> iceiceice: why ?
20140408 00:31:44< iceiceice> oh it is done with a semaphore
20140408 00:31:45< iceiceice> that is strange
20140408 00:32:17< iceiceice> ok this doesnt do exactly what i thought it did
20140408 00:32:41< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i think the semaphone is used wrongly.
20140408 00:33:42< iceiceice> why do they use semaphore?
20140408 00:33:46< gfgtdf> idk
20140408 00:33:47< iceiceice> i guess we are worried about thread safety?
20140408 00:33:55< gfgtdf> ye, but wh<
20140408 00:34:02< iceiceice> i wonder if the update_locker in display.hpp should also use a mutex or something
20140408 00:34:13< iceiceice> currently it just uses an int ...
20140408 00:36:21< gfgtdf> you mena in video.hpp ?
20140408 00:36:25< iceiceice> yes
20140408 00:36:35< gfgtdf> it used a bool :(
20140408 00:36:56< gfgtdf> that can never work i as soon as we have >1 of these objects i think
20140408 00:37:01< iceiceice> no read again
20140408 00:37:07< iceiceice> what happens is video owns the int
20140408 00:37:17< iceiceice> and each of these guys modify the int via accessor methods
20140408 00:37:33< gfgtdf> ah ok
20140408 00:37:57< gfgtdf> ye i see
20140408 00:38:53< iceiceice> the methods are named a bit badly though its true
20140408 00:39:11< iceiceice> i guess i dont know enough to understand the threading situation
20140408 00:39:20< iceiceice> i thought the program is mostly single threaded
20140408 00:39:27< gfgtdf> iceiceice: thats what i thought
20140408 00:39:28< iceiceice> but theres definitely some threading related classes and such
20140408 00:39:41< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i think teh networking code uses theads
20140408 00:39:49< gfgtdf> but thats not related to that
20140408 00:41:05< iceiceice> i guess maybe they named it "blocker" rather than "locker" to explain that it blocks...
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20140408 00:43:15< iceiceice> wait so why does blocking commands block saves
20140408 00:43:57< gfgtdf> you think it shouldn't ?
20140408 00:45:40< iceiceice> its counter intuitive
20140408 00:45:54< iceiceice> i'm grepping to see where is the code that checks this when you try to save
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20140408 00:46:19< iceiceice> also apparently, this thing that AI explained about A["B"] is the reason that we don't allow UMC to make new alignments :O
20140408 00:46:26< iceiceice> there is a comment 
20140408 00:46:54< iceiceice> line 3136 in console_handler::do_unit()
20140408 00:48:02< gfgtdf> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/play_controller.cpp#L920
20140408 00:48:40< iceiceice> thats only the hotkey though
20140408 00:49:35< gfgtdf> no all gui menau also use that system
20140408 00:50:13< iceiceice> i see i didnt know that
20140408 00:51:17< iceiceice> still, i kind of dont like the "fix", i think it would be better to figure out how to save the file correctly and reload it, this cant even be called a workaround
20140408 00:51:40< iceiceice> its just a small improvement, and possibly has unintended consequences
20140408 00:52:22< iceiceice> we would have to undo whatever you do here whenever its fixed properly
20140408 00:53:29< iceiceice> actually here's an unintended consequence
20140408 00:53:36< iceiceice> suppose we are playing online mp
20140408 00:53:45< iceiceice> and you disconnect during my turn
20140408 00:53:48< iceiceice> then it becomes your turn
20140408 00:53:55< iceiceice> but you dont init_side because you are gone
20140408 00:54:05< iceiceice> alternatively, you get a phone call and put a dialog up to pause the game
20140408 00:54:07< iceiceice> then disappear for an hour
20140408 00:54:17< iceiceice> i cant save the game or i get a bugged game
20140408 00:54:25< iceiceice> in many games if it is casual, i might kick you and replace you with someone else
20140408 00:54:31< iceiceice> if you disable commands i cant even do that
20140408 00:54:42< iceiceice> i would have no choice but to abandon
20140408 00:55:23< gfgtdf> iceiceice: this code : 	{ save_blocker  e; save_blocker  e2; } casues crash/infinite sleep.
20140408 00:55:36< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i just tested
20140408 00:55:45< iceiceice> yes i'm not advocating that, save_blocker is different from what i thought
20140408 00:56:34< iceiceice> but your commit about 21397 would actually just make the problem worse i think
20140408 00:58:20< gfgtdf> iceiceice: hm maybe
20140408 00:58:46< iceiceice> i guess maybe a workaround we coudl use is that you could kick the person and replace with an idle side
20140408 00:58:46< iceiceice> then save
20140408 00:58:56< iceiceice> i'm not actually sure right now if *that* would work or also cause a bug...
20140408 00:58:59< gfgtdf> i think i can rmove it since it isnt in the main intention of the pr anyway.
20140408 00:59:01< iceiceice> i probably should try to fix it
20140408 00:59:07< iceiceice> y 
20140408 00:59:14< iceiceice> i think maybe just save 21397 for another day
20140408 01:12:47< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i still have a strang bug that happends very irregular: in a mp game sometimes the side 2 only begins to load his game after side 1 has finished loading
20140408 01:15:07< iceiceice> do you have any idea what commit introduces it?
20140408 01:15:12< iceiceice> did it affect 1.10?
20140408 01:15:37< iceiceice> it sounds like not that serious of a problem tbh
20140408 01:16:31< iceiceice> i mean in reality there will be some network lag to the server
20140408 01:16:45< iceiceice> maybe you are worried about a more fundamental problem i guess?
20140408 01:17:13< gfgtdf> iceiceice: idk i happends irregular, but especialy in scenarios with very long intros in messages it could result in side 2 loading after the start event on side 1 processed completely which can take some time.
20140408 01:17:53< iceiceice> ok that sounds bad
20140408 01:19:31< iceiceice> i mean i dont know what to tell you, you know much more about the start events and such than i do
20140408 01:20:02< gfgtdf> but you know more about teh mp start/connect code :)
20140408 01:20:15< iceiceice> i see :)
20140408 01:20:17< iceiceice> so i guess
20140408 01:20:50< iceiceice> the client shoudl load as soon as it gets the "[start_game]" signal
20140408 01:20:57< iceiceice> thats in mp_wait
20140408 01:21:10< gfgtdf> it's currently different ?
20140408 01:22:49< iceiceice> i dont think so
20140408 01:22:50< iceiceice> void wait::process_network_data(const config& data, const network::connection sock)
20140408 01:23:11< iceiceice> grep for "\"start_game\"" and yous hould find only 4 locations
20140408 01:23:50< iceiceice> i guess if i were you i would insert debugging output at those locatoins and try to check when those things are happening
20140408 01:24:03< iceiceice> then you will know if things are getting bogged down on server or client side or what
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20140408 01:24:13< iceiceice> i dont think its possible it could get bogged down on host side... ?
20140408 01:24:39< iceiceice> i would guess that if the host has left mp_connect then it has sent that signal
20140408 01:24:46< iceiceice> and i dont think there is any backlog for sends or anything
20140408 01:24:58< iceiceice> maybe the signal is getting buried in a client backlog or something?
20140408 01:25:03< iceiceice> you would have to tell me :p
20140408 01:26:15< gfgtdf> iceiceice	: idk nothing about that happens before play_controllers contructor . But teh old 'Backlog' was only for replay commands.
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20140408 01:27:44< iceiceice> ok well without being able to see it happen i cant really know where in the process the clients are getting stuck
20140408 01:28:06< iceiceice> if you think it has to do with my code it would most likely be with the [start_game] signal
20140408 01:28:52< iceiceice> i guess just turn on full debugging and see hwat happens
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20140408 01:38:57< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i just testd a few time s and i cannot see any regularity
20140408 01:41:13< iceiceice> does htis only affect your new patch?
20140408 01:41:55< gfgtdf> iceiceice: idk.
20140408 01:42:08< gfgtdf> iceiceice: you mean 121 or 141 =
20140408 01:42:17< iceiceice> i'm hoping its only 141
20140408 01:43:01< iceiceice> idk i never knew anything about this issue before, i think it might be new, so we should probably try to bisect it if we can't figure out why its happening
20140408 01:43:48< gfgtdf> iceiceice: bisecting its hard becasue idk how to invoke it.
20140408 01:45:34< iceiceice> ok well somehow you ahve become convinced theres a problem
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20140408 01:46:01< iceiceice> when you say you cannot see any regularity,
20140408 01:46:04< iceiceice> you mean it happens and you cant see why
20140408 01:46:10< iceiceice> or you test it and you dont see it
20140408 01:47:37< gfgtdf> iceiceice: it means if i do the same thing it sometimes happends and sometimes not, (it might also be used my be clicking too much ??)
20140408 01:48:43< iceiceice> ok well you can still bisect it then you just might have to do it a few times
20140408 01:49:08< iceiceice> i think before you pour over thousands of lines of code it makes sense to try and see if it affects (1) pre 141, (2) pre 121
20140408 01:49:55< iceiceice> s/pour/pore
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20140408 01:56:17< iceiceice> hmm i am noticing some strange things about pull requests
20140408 01:56:33< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i have also another issue: i am already in a starte event, but the the screen stays  black.
20140408 01:56:35< iceiceice> it looks like right now my check_victory branch does not match the pull request corresponding to it after i rebased
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20140408 01:57:38< iceiceice> gfgtdf: are you using blindfold?
20140408 01:57:54< iceiceice> or is the entrie screen black
20140408 01:58:28< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i think the entrie windows is black
20140408 01:58:44< iceiceice> ok well that sounds like a pretty serious bug
20140408 01:59:08< gfgtdf> iceiceice: and when i click on the back screen i get a segfault 
20140408 01:59:59< iceiceice> ok well... try to reproduce
20140408 02:00:11< iceiceice> and try lots of your past commits
20140408 02:04:47< gfgtdf> iceiceice: im happy when i can reproduce it ONCE.
20140408 02:05:04< gfgtdf> trying older commits is very hard plus i also dnt hink it's related
20140408 02:05:22< iceiceice> ok well do you think you can fix it??
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20140408 02:09:05< gfgtdf> iceiceice: not if i cannot reproduce it, if did already reproduce it trice, but not with the debugger attached and teh kast 30 tried didnt work
20140408 02:12:17< iceiceice> maybe instead of using debugger you can use the core dump thing?
20140408 02:12:41< iceiceice> i learned from wiki today :)
20140408 02:12:42< iceiceice> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/DebuggingWesnoth
20140408 02:13:39< iceiceice> i guess you are saving the memory state of wesnoth so you can use gdb to get a backtrace after the fact
20140408 02:13:48< iceiceice> without running `gdb wesnoth`
20140408 02:13:55< iceiceice> other than that, idk 
20140408 02:14:08< iceiceice> if you have intractable bugs in your branch then i would suggest to write a bunch of unit tests
20140408 02:14:32< iceiceice> or start thinking about making experimental branches at a halfway point or something and see if it is fixed
20140408 02:14:50< iceiceice> or trying to turn on a lot of debugging and reading it all
20140408 02:15:17< iceiceice> gtg, i will be back later
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20140408 02:20:54< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i think the 2 bugs are the same: it just happends that teh screen blackends/freezes once before we the load and once after
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20140408 02:32:15< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i think the update lock is stange: you can have a lock, but f1 still shows the help, then the help windows wurks nromal just when you quit the help the screen freezes again.
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20140408 02:43:32< irker051> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:master cc6cecee2e72 / changelog players_changelog: Update changelogs http://git.io/Xtm80g
20140408 02:44:03< irker051> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:1.12 9ffbb1d56a42 / changelog players_changelog: Update changelogs http://git.io/oCvAlA
20140408 02:58:00< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i now think that the 2 bugs are not the same. I think the first bug is realted to [start_game]: it seems like [start_game] is received very late (40+ seconds after the game started on the host, on a local wesnothserver), you can always invoke receiving it by entering something in the lobby chat, so i think it could be related to the server
20140408 02:58:55< gfgtdf> or wuth general netork.
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20140408 03:09:47< gfgtdf> iceiceice: note, that this happends only sometines
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20140408 03:14:26< iceiceice> gfgtdf: yeah update locker is pretty low level
20140408 03:14:44< iceiceice> i dont think it is a good idea to use it except in a very brief time in a low level operation
20140408 03:15:15< iceiceice> about the start_game being slow:
20140408 03:15:19< iceiceice> maybe put on server debugging?
20140408 03:15:30< iceiceice> it might be that the server is getting stuck somewhere, or the message is stuck in transit
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20140408 03:16:14< iceiceice> if you are saying that typing something in chat frees it then i guess it might be server side? hard to say
20140408 03:16:24< iceiceice> do you have any tips for how to reproduce?
20140408 03:19:15< gfgtdf> iceiceice: hm start 2x wesnoth and localhost server, for testing i used a 2p map with pick your recruits mod activated,
20140408 03:20:08< gfgtdf> it seems liek teh chanches are better if teh second (non host) player just joined the server chanches are better  but idk wherther thtas true
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20140408 03:25:18< gfgtdf> i go to sleep now
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20140408 03:53:31< shadowm_desktop> iceiceice: ... When reporting spam posts, please report the spam posts, not the innocent OP.
20140408 03:53:59< iceiceice> :O
20140408 03:54:00< iceiceice> sorry
20140408 03:54:03< shadowm_desktop> Unless you want a tragedy to happen and for me to lose my job.
20140408 03:57:23< shadowm_desktop> iceiceice: You were trying to contact me (shadowm_desktop) two days ago?
20140408 03:57:33< iceiceice> i think it was just about Duthlet
20140408 03:58:01< shadowm_desktop> I added him to C&WC yesterday, yes.
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20140408 04:06:07< mattsc> shadowm: just quickly FYI (I have to sign out): the upgrade I did to pango/cairo fixed the consecutive line breaks not being rendered issue in Xcode (as well as a couple other OS X issues).
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20140408 07:34:27< iceiceice> http://www.ohloh.net/p/wesnoth/estimated_cost
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20140408 14:14:48< Necrosporus> AI0867, I found a text explaining how to deal with unicode on windows, if you didn't read it already, it might provide some information http://www.utf8everywhere.org/ 
20140408 14:15:27< Necrosporus> Though you probably know it already
20140408 14:17:07< loonycyborg> yes, we do :P
20140408 14:18:55< loonycyborg> As you can see, supporting proper unicode with winapi syscalls is a lot of work.
20140408 14:19:25< loonycyborg> You can go linux for now, no such problems there :P
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20140408 14:24:48< Necrosporus> loonycyborg, I use GNU/Linux already and have no such problems. And I hope if unicode filenames on windows will be supported it won't break linux ones
20140408 14:25:29< loonycyborg> yeah, we'll definitely use conditional compilation and/or platform independent abstractions
20140408 14:26:56< Necrosporus> loonycyborg, though doesn't seem so very hard for me. By the way, GNU/Linux is not necessary using UTF-8 locale, is Wesnoth aware of that? (e.g. KOI8-R)
20140408 14:27:33< loonycyborg> I don't think so, though non-utf code pages are long gone afaik
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20140408 14:29:06< Necrosporus> loonycyborg, it's not gone, it's just very few people still use them, even though they are still supported
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20140408 14:31:11< Necrosporus> I know at least one person using KOI8-R locale
20140408 14:31:37< loonycyborg> Maybe ask this person to test?
20140408 14:32:21< loonycyborg> I suspect translated text or filenames from local filesystems would use wrong encoding
20140408 14:32:53< loonycyborg> but who knows?
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20140408 14:48:30< Necrosporus> loonycyborg, the game seems to work, but save files are in UTF-8 nevertheless
20140408 14:48:46< Necrosporus> I mean their names
20140408 14:48:55< Necrosporus> Though I didn't see anything wrong with game functioning 
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20140408 14:50:35< Necrosporus> Though I did only use $ export LANG=ru_RU.KOI8-R LC_ALL=ru_RU.KOI8-R; locale prior starting wesnoth
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20140408 15:04:36< AI0867> aquileia: #17 of utf8everywhere might be of interest for you regarding compiling the unit tests
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20140408 15:15:41< Necrosporus> AI0867, I'm not familiar with wesnoth code at all, and not an expert programmer. Though I think the right way is to define a set of function dealing with files in one place and use only them in all other parts of code. And it should be functions, not macros because you won't necessarily run Wesnoth with same locale you compiled it. Probably function itself should use conditional compilation with preprocessor directives for different 
20140408 15:15:42< Necrosporus> Operating system, but in same OS it should determine its way from dynamically, like reading $LC_CTYPE env var to determine filesystem encoding. Though Linux filesystems are encoding-agnostic, so it might be still OK to always use UTF-8
20140408 15:18:04< Necrosporus> Though I suspect it might already be done this way
20140408 15:18:34< AI0867> everything is currently concentrated in filesystem.cpp
20140408 15:18:47< AI0867> and we use UTF-8 for everything, as that's what all sane systems expect
20140408 15:18:58< AI0867> windows does not fall under that category
20140408 15:28:51< Necrosporus> AI0867, what about GNU/Linux with non-utf locale?
20140408 15:29:14< AI0867> Necrosporus: doesn't matter. the standard library functions accept utf-8
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20140408 15:31:39< Necrosporus> AI0867, they probably not 'accept utf-8', but rather just accept whatever binary data you provide without interpretation, or am I wrong?
20140408 15:32:45< AI0867> Necrosporus: no, they do need to figure out where the directory separators are and such
20140408 15:33:17< Necrosporus> That's always / in any encoding, so it is still encoding-agnostic
20140408 15:33:22< AI0867> but yeah, any NULL-terminated string is probably accepted, with just a few characters having special meaning
20140408 15:33:32< AI0867> no, there are plenty of encodings where that is not true
20140408 15:33:50< Necrosporus> EBDIC?
20140408 15:34:08< AI0867> though all single-byte-based variable width encodings in current use do coincide with ASCII
20140408 15:34:11< AI0867> for example
20140408 15:34:15< AI0867> but there's also UTF-7
20140408 15:36:16< Necrosporus> I guess, standard library function won't threat UTF-7 correctly, will them?
20140408 15:37:31< AI0867> nope
20140408 15:37:56< Necrosporus> And if they do, how do they determine how to interpret them? via $LC_CTYPE perhaps?
20140408 15:38:13< AI0867> I don't think they do
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20140408 15:40:30< Necrosporus> From man 7 locale: LC_CTYPE > This  changes the behavior of the character handling and classification functions, such as isupper(3) and toupper(3), and  the multibyte character functions such as mblen(3) or wctomb(3).
20140408 15:42:18< AI0867> yes, character handling functions
20140408 15:42:28< AI0867> not filesystem functions
20140408 15:43:43< Necrosporus> If that true, it does mean non-ascii-compatible locales are not supported by GNU/Linux
20140408 15:44:50< AI0867> that does not have anything to do with locales
20140408 15:44:56< AI0867> it has to do with character encoding
20140408 15:45:09< AI0867> and UTF-8 can represent any character
20140408 15:45:38< Necrosporus> Not actually
20140408 15:45:44< AI0867> aquileia: I've updated both branches to a recent master
20140408 15:45:46< Necrosporus> Almost any though
20140408 15:46:00< AI0867> if it can't, then that's a bug in unicode ;)
20140408 15:46:10< Necrosporus> For example there's no utf chars for tolkien constructed languages
20140408 15:46:18< AI0867> true
20140408 15:46:34< AI0867> but that may be fixed soon enough
20140408 15:46:39< AI0867> see klingon
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20140408 15:49:11< Necrosporus> $ locale -a | grep -v utf8  | grep '\.' | tr \\n \ 
20140408 15:49:11< Necrosporus> et_EE.iso885915 hy_AM.armscii8 ja_JP.eucjp ko_KR.euckr ru_RU.cp1251 ru_RU.koi8r vi_VN.tcvn zh_CN.gb18030 zh_CN.gbk zh_SG.gbk zh_TW.euctw xenius@xenote:/usr/shar
20140408 15:51:16< AI0867> yes, that's all true
20140408 15:51:18< AI0867> so?
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20140408 15:53:10< travis-ci> [travis-ci] AI0867/wesnoth#32 (boost_filesystem_win - b4c70f2 : Alexander van Gessel): The build is still failing.
20140408 15:53:10< travis-ci> [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/AI0867/wesnoth/builds/22538890
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20140408 16:00:03< Necrosporus> AI0867, so even if all sane systems understand UTF-8, there are still non-sane system and the developer must decide does she want to support them
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20140408 16:00:05< travis-ci> [travis-ci] AI0867/wesnoth#33 (boost_filesystem_win - 1a4ee0a : Alexander van Gessel): The build has errored.
20140408 16:00:05< travis-ci> [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/AI0867/wesnoth/builds/22539411
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20140408 16:09:15< travis-ci> [travis-ci] AI0867/wesnoth#34 (boost_filesystem_win - 2072cdb : Alexander van Gessel): The build has errored.
20140408 16:09:15< travis-ci> [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/AI0867/wesnoth/builds/22540188
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20140408 16:11:06< AI0867> huh
20140408 16:11:21< AI0867> I was looking into how other people do this (boost::locale is too new for travis, it seems)
20140408 16:12:49< AI0867> and I've just seen a log from someone who DOES A DIST-UPGRADE EVERY BUILD
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20140408 16:34:16< travis-ci> [travis-ci] AI0867/wesnoth#31 (boost_filesystem - d696490 : Alexander van Gessel): The build has errored.
20140408 16:34:16< travis-ci> [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/AI0867/wesnoth/builds/22538867
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20140408 17:00:30< Dugi> wesbot: seen mordante
20140408 17:00:30< wesbot> Dugi: The person with the nick mordante last spoke 2d 3h ago.  2d 3h ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-de with the message: Quit: Leaving
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20140408 18:27:21< shadowm> mattsc: Great, now we just need somebody to do the same for Windows...
20140408 18:44:13< Dugi> shadowm: Screw Windows, make Wesnoth Linux-only.
20140408 18:45:41< shadowm> I stopped finding that kind of thing funny ages ago.
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20140408 18:49:24< ancestral> Dugi: Better, make it platform agnostic by having it in one framework so it can be run everywhere
20140408 18:49:38< ancestral> Oh wait, it’d need a complete rewrite. Damn.
20140408 18:50:18< Necrosporus> Dugi, I think it's not an option. It's hard to convince people play wesnoth with me even when windows build exists. If it was not, it would be even harder, as I'd have to convince them to install GNU/Linux first, which I succeed only sometimes
20140408 18:51:24< Necrosporus> ancestral, not necessarily, there's boost already
20140408 18:51:35< ancestral> Emscripten everything!
20140408 18:53:21< Dugi> ancestral: It would run pretty slow then.
20140408 18:54:57< ancestral> Dugi: Browsers have made (and continue to make) impressive gains in performance with Javascript egines
20140408 18:56:02< ancestral> Emscripten, NaCl, node-webkit, asm.js and other technologies make web/js apps achieve desktop performance
20140408 19:05:49< iceiceice> but javascript is horrible
20140408 19:06:40< iceiceice> i found developing in javascript to be the most painful thing... give me C++ any day
20140408 19:08:56< gfgtdf> iceiceice: were you able to reproduce the bug i menatioed earlier ?
20140408 19:09:05< iceiceice> no i didnt actually try sry
20140408 19:09:15< iceiceice> i'm trying to make something else that i think might help us to debug things
20140408 19:09:25< gfgtdf> whyt exactly ?
20140408 19:09:36< iceiceice> i'm trying to set up a framework for wml scenario unit tests
20140408 19:09:51< gfgtdf> so fori debugging wml 
20140408 19:09:51< iceiceice> so you would write a "reality check" scenario
20140408 19:09:52< gfgtdf> for*
20140408 19:10:02< iceiceice> and then it can be run from command line headlessly
20140408 19:10:14< iceiceice> with return code refeclting "victory" or "defeat"
20140408 19:10:24< iceiceice> and it will also automatically save a replay and try to play the replay to completion
20140408 19:10:33< iceiceice> reporting failure if it cant
20140408 19:12:50< iceiceice> i'm almost ready to push it out maybe, i just rebased the branch
20140408 19:13:56< iceiceice> its not realyl intended for debugging wml
20140408 19:14:03< iceiceice> its intended for us to figure out if we broke wml
20140408 19:15:17< iceiceice> the idea is that we would get some tests (or possibly, ask umc authors to write some tests as well) and use them to make sure the WML api is working
20140408 19:15:21< iceiceice> and that the replay functionality is working
20140408 19:15:56< iceiceice> the point is they could be automatic so we could use git bisect if something like this breaks
20140408 19:17:21< Dugi> ancestral: They're still far from reaching the performance of properly compiled code. Look at the graphics of all these silly browser games - if there is anything 3D, it looks like from year 2002. Or see for yourself how slow are web programs.
20140408 19:19:34< ancestral> Dugi: Incorrect
20140408 19:19:47< ancestral> Game Dev Tycoon: http://store.steampowered.com/app/239820/
20140408 19:20:19< ancestral> A Wizard’s Lizard: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=205801629
20140408 19:22:06< ancestral> https://github.com/rogerwang/node-webkit/wiki/List-of-apps-and-companies-using-node-webkit
20140408 19:22:07< iceiceice> ancestral: you would actually want wesnoth to be browser based?
20140408 19:22:18< ancestral> See, it doesn’t really matter
20140408 19:22:24< ancestral> It’s not a thing anymore!
20140408 19:22:36< Dugi> ancestral: That was what I meant - browser games are either 2D (like the ones you showed me) or 3D and looking like 10 years old at least.
20140408 19:23:50< Dugi> ancestral: Wesnoth as a browser game would mean downloading images all the time, making it annoyingly laggy. And it's useless to download all the data every time you launch it.
20140408 19:24:12< ancestral> Wesnoth isn’t a 3D game
20140408 19:24:19< ancestral> Dugi: No
20140408 19:24:45< iceiceice> ancestral: you know there is a port of wesnoth to the chrome store or whatever right?
20140408 19:24:52< ancestral> You guys are pidgeon-holing JS/HTML5 into the browser
20140408 19:24:53< Dugi> ancestral: I know it isn't 3D, so 
20140408 19:24:58< ancestral> It doesn’t have to be in the browser!
20140408 19:25:15< ancestral> The concept of the browser is antiquated
20140408 19:26:02< iceiceice> ok, now i'm listening. what would you use instead that is reliable and cross platform
20140408 19:26:02< ancestral> iceiceice: I’ve heard this, but it’s not distributed as a desktop app
20140408 19:26:03< Dugi> ancestral: As iceiceice said, wesnoth can be played as a browser game,but it was abandoned. My main reason would be the amount of data needed to download all the time - which is one of the reasons I don't play browser games. Not the main one, though.
20140408 19:26:44< ancestral> Dugi: You wouldn’t play it in the browser. You would download a wrapper, like node-webkit, which is bascially a browser engine with the game inside the app
20140408 19:27:00< ancestral> (You wouldn’t download nw, the game would be inside it.)
20140408 19:28:17< Dugi> ancestral: I mentioned 3D games because I wanted you to understand that browser games are far from reaching the performance of normal games (like Skyrim, Assassin's Creed, later Call of Duty etc).
20140408 19:29:18< ancestral> Dugi: Unreal Engine 4 can be run with Firefox’s engine using asm.js: https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/03/12/mozilla-and-epic-preview-unreal-engine-4-running-in-firefox/
20140408 19:30:03< shadowm> The bottleneck with modern games is the graphics pipeline, not the CPU.
20140408 19:30:04< ancestral> Admittedly, this isn’t fully mature stuff. But it’s underestimated, and there are similar technologies not JS specific
20140408 19:30:42< iceiceice> i just dont see what the advantage of doing this is
20140408 19:30:57< Dugi> ancestral: That looks like a progress, can be compared with games from 2005... I wonder what a beast is the computer it's running on.
20140408 19:32:29< ancestral> Unreal Engine 4 is current btw
20140408 19:32:48< ancestral> Wesnoth is written with, what, a half dozen languages? using dozens and dozens of various libraries maintained by separate projects and communities, with many different file formats and conventions
20140408 19:32:58< ancestral> It’s not super portable
20140408 19:33:18< iceiceice> i dont agree
20140408 19:33:21< iceiceice> its mostly C++
20140408 19:33:28< ancestral> But there are Python scripts
20140408 19:33:32< iceiceice> do you need to install those to play though?
20140408 19:33:34< ancestral> And Perl scripts in there too
20140408 19:33:43< ancestral> It goes into the build process
20140408 19:33:47< iceiceice> so what?
20140408 19:34:02< shadowm> The build process only requires a C++ compiler.
20140408 19:34:40< shadowm> Unless you want to juggle massive command lines, you may optionally use a build system of your preference such as cmake or scons, or an IDE like MSVC++ or CodeBlocks.
20140408 19:34:53< shadowm> Finally, the game proper only requires WML and Lua files.
20140408 19:34:55< Dugi> ancestral: Python scripts are just to help you with some stuff, you aren't using them when playing the game. lua and WML are to allow expansions without changing the C++ core, because that would allow viruses and such.
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20140408 19:37:31< ancestral> iceiceice: What I mean is, getting up-to-date, official builds to new platforms (iOS, Android, consoles, whatever future platforms there may be) is going to be a herculean task
20140408 19:37:54< ancestral> And supporting all of them with all the pieces isn’t easy
20140408 19:38:06< shadowm> Scripts like wmllint, wmlindent, wesnoth_addon_manager (the big Python three, if you will) and wmlxgettext (Perl) are only relevant for content creators and Wesnoth maintainers and therefore have no relevance whatsoever for your assessment. wmllint and wmlindent are known to work on Windows, and none of these actually rely upon platform-dependent features that would make cross-platform deployments an impossibility. Any present ...
20140408 19:38:12< shadowm> ... incompatibilities should be considered bugs.
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20140408 19:39:31< iceiceice> ancestral: i'm pretty doubtful that this JS webkit thing can really do the job without using many of these same libraries under the hood
20140408 19:39:59< iceiceice> what makes you think that it is comparatively easier to port the webkit to all these platforms you mention?
20140408 19:40:05< ancestral> Wesnoth in it’s current state? You’re right, it uses too far many various libraries
20140408 19:40:32< iceiceice> actually i want to use more libraries :S
20140408 19:40:42< ancestral> I was using HTML5 games as an example of how easy it is to port them
20140408 19:41:30< Dugi> ancestral: They're easy to port because porting them to other platforms is like porting wesnoth add-ons to other platforms.
20140408 19:41:54< ancestral> Alternatively, people who just use Unity, just use Python, just use Flash, it’s much easier to maintain
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20140408 19:42:46< ancestral> I’m not suggesting anything, but I am saying Wesnoth suffers from having so many pieces that it makes it difficult
20140408 19:43:24< Dugi> ancestral: The webkit to run java with a lot of functions needs all these libraries to be built inside it, so you're using a humongous code piece for even the smallest program. Plus, webkit itself isn't platform dependent.
20140408 19:44:19< Dugi> ancestral: Not too many pieces, C++ is to do the main stuff, lua and WML is for campaigns and add-ons, because it's useless to compile data the program is to read into the program.
20140408 19:44:49< iceiceice> what is our list of dependencies, i should probably look at this before saying anything more
20140408 19:45:11< Dugi> ancestral: And if you're complaining about wesnoth having too many dependencies, think of the amount of stuff used by webkit to run practically anything.
20140408 19:45:14< shadowm> !file /INSTALL
20140408 19:45:14< shikadibot> shadowm: Web interface URL to file INSTALL: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/INSTALL
20140408 19:45:30< shadowm> iceiceice: ^
20140408 19:46:17< iceiceice> thx, i was looking at wiki actually
20140408 19:46:18< iceiceice> that is much better
20140408 19:46:59< iceiceice> ancestral: is getting these dependencies actually the hard part of making an iOS / android port?
20140408 19:47:49< ancestral> I wouldn’t know, but what I’m trying to get at is there are existing frameworks, where if you buy into the framework it makes porting a lot easier
20140408 19:48:18< ancestral> (“buy” in the figurative sense)
20140408 19:48:22< iceiceice> y but at what cost
20140408 19:48:30< Dugi> ancestral: That framework would be much much larger than the set of functions wesnoth is using.
20140408 19:48:35< iceiceice> in the sense of ... what do i sacrifice
20140408 19:48:49< iceiceice> i guess i could imagine that there is no analogy to SDL on some of these platforms
20140408 19:48:50< ancestral> Dugi: That’s possible
20140408 19:48:54< iceiceice> but that seems like the only issue
20140408 19:49:18< ancestral> For example, Unity has a specific 2D engine
20140408 19:49:19< shadowm> SDL 2.0 supports iOS.
20140408 19:50:13< shadowm> <http://wiki.libsdl.org/Introduction> "SDL officially supports Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, iOS, and Android. Support for other platforms may be found in the source code."
20140408 19:52:22< iceiceice> hmm well i never heard of unity before tbh
20140408 19:52:49< iceiceice> so it is a propriety engine that "solves all the portability problems"?
20140408 19:52:54< ancestral> Too bad Wesnoth isn’t using SDL 2
20140408 19:53:02< ancestral> shadowm: Not SDL 1.2
20140408 19:53:04< iceiceice> "The graphics engine uses Direct3D (Windows, Xbox 360), OpenGL (Mac, Windows, Linux), OpenGL ES (Android, iOS), and proprietary APIs (consoles)."
20140408 19:53:18< iceiceice> will that actually work and look similar / good on all platforms?
20140408 19:53:27< ancestral> iceiceice: I’m just using it as an example
20140408 19:53:42< iceiceice> ancestral: we are hoping to port to SDL 2 soon iiuc
20140408 19:53:55< ancestral> That.
20140408 19:55:04< ancestral> Dugi said “screw Windows?” and the reply was, that’s not an option
20140408 19:55:17< iceiceice> so i basically agree with you that web-based software can be very good and simplify alot of things, i suggested on the forums that we should make a webbased version of wmllint
20140408 19:55:27< Dugi> ancestral: I was kidding.
20140408 19:55:43< iceiceice> i dont think its a good idea to make anything other than a lightweight tool in js or any of these web based systems though
20140408 19:55:44< ancestral> Dugi: Yet you have a valid point
20140408 19:56:15< iceiceice> or a lightweight browser game
20140408 19:57:16< ancestral> If Wesnoth was written for a framework, whether it be proprietary, or open source, or web-based or not, or written in LISP, the point is, it would be easier to port, and you would have fewer reasons to say “let’s forget about platform X”
20140408 19:57:40< iceiceice> but you would be creating problems somewhere else
20140408 19:57:46< ancestral> Probably
20140408 19:57:59< iceiceice> right now i see no compelling argument to jump ship from SDL
20140408 19:58:08-!- irker364 [~irker@fehu.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140408 19:58:08< irker364> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master eeac40512bed / / (70 files in 4 dirs): Initial commit http://git.io/Y-tgzg
20140408 19:58:08< irker364> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master dd03c7137ba0 / COPYING Glamdrol.php glamdrol/main.css: Move to GNU GPL v2+ licensing http://git.io/vdRdrg
20140408 19:58:09< irker364> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master 207af57f8720 / Glamdrol.php: Use wiki.wesnoth.org for navbar links instead of www.wesnoth.org http://git.io/5mpg-Q
20140408 19:58:11< irker364> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master 0a22d081b728 / Glamdrol.php: Make site notices look prettier http://git.io/NahoyA
20140408 19:58:14< irker364> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master a233aaa6e3b4 / Glamdrol.php: Fixes for MediaWiki 1.21.x http://git.io/fVkE7w
20140408 19:58:16< ancestral> I’m not saying someone should do that, because that would be ludicrous. There’s too much invested in the current stuff
20140408 19:58:17< irker364> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master 745b91b59878 / Glamdrol.php: Update to shared stylesheet inclusions for MW 1.21.x http://git.io/PLzvOQ
20140408 19:58:20< irker364> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master bc83dfca13e7 / Glamdrol.php: New Year copyright update http://git.io/s9qTlg
20140408 19:58:23< irker364> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master 4df1215adc21 / README.md: Add Markdown readme file for the repository http://git.io/F3CJRg
20140408 19:58:34< iceiceice> even if we could go back in time and not use SDL, i dont see a reason why we would
20140408 19:59:07< Dugi> iceiceice: I see an argument to shift from SDL to Blender or Ogre3D. But that's not going to happen, I know.
20140408 19:59:08< ancestral> To Wesnoth’s defense, there weren’t any very good frameworks back in 2003
20140408 19:59:30< ancestral> Or the good ones cost a ton of money
20140408 20:00:47< iceiceice> so you seem enamored with the idea of a framework, but the only argument you gave was about portability / dependencies
20140408 20:00:59< iceiceice> i'm not sure how much of a rewrite woudl be required to drop SDL
20140408 20:01:07< iceiceice> we could use boost threads instead most likely
20140408 20:01:11< iceiceice> or alternatively
20140408 20:01:19< iceiceice> and provide and alternate implementation of video i guess
20140408 20:01:26< iceiceice> at least i dont see an obvious problem
20140408 20:01:41< iceiceice> we have a "fake" video for when we run headlessly
20140408 20:02:01< iceiceice> i think if you wanted to make a branch that didn't depend on SDL it might actually be feasible
20140408 20:02:50< shadowm> If anyone here has already done so for some weird reason: Don't clone that repository yet.
20140408 20:02:51< iceiceice> but it doesn't sound like theres a whole lot of demand tbh
20140408 20:03:44< ancestral> I don’t think SDL is an issue in and of itself
20140408 20:04:41< ancestral> But I do think there is demand with having mobile ports up to date with desktop releases
20140408 20:09:23< Dugi> ancestral: Playing games on mobiles is pretty annoying nowadays when you don't have a mouse with three buttons and scrolling there and keyboard can't be used neither. I am using my HTC Desire 500 smartphone for taking photos and listening to music and that's enough for me.
20140408 20:09:25< irker364> wesnoth: Jordà Polo glamdrol:master ff2df65d3671 / / (47 files in 3 dirs): Initial commit http://git.io/Z1uaaw
20140408 20:09:27< irker364> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master 0f32438661ec / glamdrol/home_portraits/ (23 files): Add front page portrait randomization script and images http://git.io/1XbkPQ
20140408 20:09:30< irker364> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master 68c29304c129 / COPYING Glamdrol.php glamdrol/main.css: Move to GNU GPL v2+ licensing http://git.io/ccadlw
20140408 20:09:33< irker364> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master 0f215e460c73 / Glamdrol.php: Use wiki.wesnoth.org for navbar links instead of www.wesnoth.org http://git.io/2vyGHw
20140408 20:09:36< irker364> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master bc75a7174152 / Glamdrol.php: Make site notices look prettier http://git.io/QiALEQ
20140408 20:09:39< irker364> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master abd477c0b31b / Glamdrol.php: Fixes for MediaWiki 1.21.x http://git.io/KVG5yA
20140408 20:09:41< irker364> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master 6f5f7e41265a / Glamdrol.php: Update to shared stylesheet inclusions for MW 1.21.x http://git.io/rNmPGw
20140408 20:09:44< irker364> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master ec74d1cee42a / Glamdrol.php: New Year copyright update http://git.io/zSqhrQ
20140408 20:09:48< irker364> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master 9b548d3c9449 / README.md: Add Markdown readme file for the repository http://git.io/_vrKaA
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20140408 20:10:27< ancestral> Dugi: Turn-based games work well on tablets for many folks.
20140408 20:12:28< ancestral> The Personal Computer has been around for nearly 35 years. The tablet has been around for about 5 or 10 years. It’ll get easier with time.
20140408 20:15:12< Dugi> ancestral: But it's still more comfortable with a mouse and a keyboard. I wonder how will they add a keyboard and mouse to a tablet without turning it inot a laptop.
20140408 20:15:20< Dugi> ancestral: *into
20140408 20:15:50< ancestral> Microsoft feels like they have their answer already.
20140408 20:16:17< ancestral> Dugi: Perhaps mobile gaming isn’t your thing.
20140408 20:17:55< shadowm> Do NOT try to access the wiki for the next 10 seconds.
20140408 20:18:21< shadowm> Okay, done.
20140408 20:19:07< Dugi> ancestral: I used to play Pokémon Crystal on my mobile. But other games are usually far simpler, completable in two hours or repetitive after two hours. And it was on a mobile with normal buttons, it sucks when you feel no buttons under your fingers (this also makes writing much worse on these touchscreens compared to PCs).
20140408 20:19:52< ancestral> Yeah, people are hoping for haptic feedback
20140408 20:20:28< ancestral> Dugi: My phone’s emulator has the option to vibrate on button push, but this is untenable for most games
20140408 20:23:32< Dugi> ancestral: Vibration will not emulate the feeling of the buttons' edges that informs you where the buttons are without having to look at it. If they'll figure out an alternative, like change of the surace's shape or temperature, it would be awesome. But I doubt that nanotechnologies are so progressed.
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20140408 20:43:49< Dugi> vultraz: How do you change nicknames?
20140408 20:45:30< shadowm> /nick <nickname here>
20140408 20:46:01< shadowm> You should also consider registering your nickname: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
20140408 20:47:46< shadowm> The nick 'Dugi' is already registered by someone else, but according to <http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#userexpirations> it's eligible for dropping by network staff upon request if you want to take it over.
20140408 20:48:17-!- Dugi is now known as Dugy
20140408 20:48:23-!- Dugy is now known as Dugi
20140408 20:50:40< Dugi> I don't mind not being registered, it works fine and the other Dugi doesn't seem to use IRC anyway.
20140408 20:51:12< shadowm> If they or somebody else taking over the nick choose to do so, they can disconnect you using nickserv.
20140408 20:52:04< shadowm> If you don't mind being suddenly disconnected by a third party while in the middle of an important conversation, well...
20140408 20:53:04< Dugi> I think that that guy is totally inactive, never seen him joining and kicking me out.
20140408 20:53:06< shadowm> iceiceice: Which reminds me that it seems you never got that sorted out?
20140408 20:53:27< iceiceice> i went on the nickserv thing back then and tried to get someones attention
20140408 20:53:30< iceiceice> then i did it the next day
20140408 20:53:37< ancestral> shadowm: Couldn’t someone pose as Dugi and we wouldn’t be the wiser?
20140408 20:53:54< ancestral> (Apart from behavior, etc.)
20140408 20:53:55< iceiceice> i'm not sure what i was supposed to do but i forgot about it after that
20140408 20:53:55< shadowm> iceiceice: Yeah, you have to keep trying, staff are busy at times.
20140408 20:54:05< iceiceice> its not a problem unless the guy who owns the nick shows up, right? :P
20140408 20:54:13< shadowm> Or somebody else takes it over before you.
20140408 20:54:17< iceiceice> i see
20140408 20:54:24< shadowm> Which is what Dugi seems to not understand.
20140408 20:55:01< Dugi> Anybody can name himself Dugi and come here in my absence anyway.
20140408 20:55:17< Dugi> Even if I was registered, it would be possible.
20140408 20:55:37< shadowm> That wasn't my point, but if you insist on sticking to your logic, whatever floats your boat I guess.
20140408 20:55:53< ancestral> Right, but if you were registered, we can find out if the nick in use reg’d, can’t we?
20140408 20:56:17-!- Gambit [~derek@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140408 20:56:21< iceiceice> you make a strong argument Dugi. everytime you come here we should great you "prove you are the real dugi or we will shoot you"
20140408 20:56:27< iceiceice> for that matter you should shoot me too
20140408 20:56:30< ancestral> Or is it solely a Legends rule (there can be only one at one time)?
20140408 20:56:41< shadowm> /cmode +b $~a
20140408 20:56:50< shadowm> That'd solve everything.
20140408 20:57:17< ancestral> Would registering endanger one’s anonymity?
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20140408 20:57:48< iceiceice> i mean, posting my full name and email in the wesnoth repo has seriosuly endangered my anonymity :p
20140408 20:57:49< shadowm> Anonymity and Wesnoth development are mutually exclusive concepts.
20140408 20:58:03< iceiceice> i guess not my email...  dont remember about that actually
20140408 20:58:03< ancestral> Of course
20140408 20:58:07< iceiceice> i gues its just my name and handle in the repo
20140408 20:58:11< iceiceice> uhh
20140408 20:58:15< iceiceice> i guess its in the git settings?
20140408 20:58:44< shadowm> Even if it's a net username, you have to either have some form of permanent identification or refrain from attempting to contribute.
20140408 20:59:04< ancestral> So fake ID could suffice
20140408 20:59:06< ancestral> Aliases
20140408 20:59:13< shadowm> I do strongly prefer if people use their real name and email address for committing.
20140408 20:59:33< ancestral> Because?
20140408 20:59:35< shadowm> That way I know they at least implicitly claim responsibility for their actions.
20140408 20:59:58< shadowm> Unless you are providing fake information, in which case, really, go away.
20140408 21:00:16< ancestral> That, I meant
20140408 21:00:31< ancestral> I should have been clear
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20140408 21:13:01< thunderstruck> iceiceice: There was some bug report a several days ago about broken MP stuff which you pointed me to.
20140408 21:13:22< thunderstruck> iceiceice: I can't find it on the bug tracker. Do you remember what bug was that?
20140408 21:14:48< thunderstruck> iceiceice: I think it was about factions and leaders. Although I'm not completely sure.
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20140408 21:28:13< thunderstruck> iceiceice: In case you didn't notice: I asked you a question just before you quit.
20140408 21:28:24< iceiceice> thanks i didnt notice actually
20140408 21:28:52< iceiceice> oh 
20140408 21:29:03< iceiceice> someone was complaining about some fields of side not doing anything
20140408 21:29:15< iceiceice> i have no idea if it was valid or not, but i saw that no one picked it up
20140408 21:29:20< iceiceice> i'll find it, one sec
20140408 21:29:29< thunderstruck> Ok, cheers.
20140408 21:29:46< iceiceice> https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?20562
20140408 21:31:28< iceiceice> at least i think that was it
20140408 21:31:43< thunderstruck> iceiceice: Yes, I was looking for it.
20140408 21:33:32-!- neXyon [~neXyon@85-127-47-28.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140408 21:36:14< thunderstruck> iceiceice: I just tested that and I don't see a problem there.
20140408 21:36:25-!- loonycyborg [~sergey@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit [Quit: I ATE'NT DEAD]
20140408 21:36:52< thunderstruck> iceiceice: Wait..
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20140408 21:37:20< thunderstruck> iceiceice: Maybe the problem is that these keys used to lock in side to these choices?
20140408 21:37:25< thunderstruck> iceiceice: I can't remember now..
20140408 21:37:45< thunderstruck> iceiceice: 'Cause what they do now, is they provide only default values.
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20140408 21:38:29< thunderstruck> iceiceice: And ScenarioWML force_lock_settings=yes needs to be there if you actually want to lock factions, leaders or genders.
20140408 21:39:34< iceiceice> i see... 
20140408 21:39:43< iceiceice> well i never knew anything about it , i guess they aren't on the wiki now
20140408 21:41:12< iceiceice> im just trying to figure out which bugs are valid that i might be able to fix :) if this is not really a bug or the system changed then i guess mark "works for me" or "invalid" or something, and put it on the wiki?
20140408 21:41:31< iceiceice> if we actually support those fields at all now?
20140408 21:41:39< thunderstruck> we do
20140408 21:41:45< thunderstruck> they do work
20140408 21:42:00< thunderstruck> I think the result is not what he/she expects though.
20140408 21:42:57< thunderstruck> I guess, the solution would be to provide faction_lock, gender_lock etc as it is done with gold and other stuff.
20140408 21:43:20< thunderstruck> But I have to check if this is actually regressions or not.
20140408 21:45:10< thunderstruck> iceiceice: I'll check this tomorrow. Compiling 1.10 would take way too long for me.
20140408 21:46:06< iceiceice> ok sounds good, thanks for looking at it
20140408 21:46:11< thunderstruck> iceiceice: By the way, what's the status of this https://gna.org/bugs/?21882 one?
20140408 21:46:29< iceiceice> i updated my PR to try to fix that,
20140408 21:46:39< iceiceice> i'm hoping to merge it soon once i feel confident that i've tested it enough
20140408 21:46:54< thunderstruck> iceiceice: Ok. I was not sure if it was something I should look into.
20140408 21:47:36< iceiceice> feel free to have a look if you like or have a thought about how it should be done
20140408 21:47:47< iceiceice> i guess most discussion is on the PR discussion here:
20140408 21:47:52< iceiceice> and i had some in email
20140408 21:48:17< iceiceice> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/133
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20140408 22:05:47< thunderstruck> How do unit portraits and genders work? Is there some mechanism which would pick a right portrait depending on a gender?
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20140408 22:09:59< Dugi> thunderstruck: The unit_type tag has a female subtag, and all its tags replace the contents of the tags in the unit_type. unit_type contains the male portrait, female one contains the female protrait, if the unit is male then it uses the male portrait, if it's female, the female portrait replaces the male one in unit_type and the female one is shown.
20140408 22:10:59< zookeeper> yeah, look at the cfg of a unit type that has a female version (like elvish archer), it should be pretty clear how it works
20140408 22:12:31< thunderstruck> Dugi, zookeeper: Thanks. That's what I was looking for.
20140408 22:13:48< thunderstruck> iceiceice: I briefly looked at your PR, but I don't have anything to say. It looks like that should work, though
20140408 22:14:14< iceiceice> thanks, hopefully will merge that soon i think
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20140408 22:14:52< thunderstruck> I'm going. Bye.
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--- Log closed Wed Apr 09 00:00:53 2014