--- Log opened Sat Apr 26 00:00:33 2014
20140426 00:01:49-!- irker142 [~irker@fehu.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140426 00:01:50< irker142> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master ccb243138ce7 / src/playcampaign.cpp: remove spurious WML variable manipulations in playcampaign.cpp http://git.io/m5HFig
20140426 00:01:51< irker142> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 4a0e7143eb24 / changelog: update changelog http://git.io/RBvE-w
20140426 00:02:31< gfgtdf> wesbot: seenmordante
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20140426 00:02:35< gfgtdf> wesbot: seen mordante
20140426 00:02:35< wesbot> gfgtdf: The person with the nick mordante last spoke 3d 3h ago.  3d 3h ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-de with the message: Quit: Leaving
20140426 00:03:46< iceiceice> ok i tried playing Dark Forecast briefly after the patch, and saving and reloading, and watching a replay thereafter
20140426 00:03:49< iceiceice> it doesnt seem corrupt or anything
20140426 00:04:10< iceiceice> i'm going to assume that my commit fixed this i think
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20140426 00:04:36< gfgtdf> iceiceice: yes, did you test wether teh vvaraibles are still preserved when advancing to the next scenario ?
20140426 00:04:45< gfgtdf> variables*
20140426 00:04:46< iceiceice> hmm no i didnt check that
20140426 00:05:27< iceiceice> is there a debug command to set a variable to a value?
20140426 00:05:31< iceiceice> i guess i could use lua 
20140426 00:06:45< iceiceice> yeah that still works it looks like
20140426 00:07:07< gfgtdf> ok :)
20140426 00:07:13< iceiceice> ok its going to 1.12 :)
20140426 00:12:51< irker142> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:1.12 effc118f1e14 / src/playcampaign.cpp: remove spurious WML variable manipulations in playcampaign.cpp http://git.io/7xdyKg
20140426 00:12:53< irker142> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:1.12 05650486bbe3 / changelog: update changelog http://git.io/F3n-bg
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20140426 00:40:14< iceiceice> Soliton: online?
20140426 00:42:15< shadowm> It's 02:42 in the morning in Germany.
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20140426 00:55:59< Coffee_irc> anyone object to adding a raise staff animation to delfador in the tutorial and making him face Konrad?
20140426 00:56:08< Coffee_irc> just to nicen it up
20140426 00:56:58< Aishiko> Coffee_irc, that sounds like it'd be nice, it could even be part of delfador's idling animation perhaps?
20140426 00:57:32< Coffee_irc> Aishiko: it's just the normal raise staff without the thunderbolt animation to summon the quintain
20140426 00:57:45< shadowm> Why would anyone object to that? :p
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20140426 00:59:30< irker142> wesnoth: David Mikos wesnoth:master bf81a314a660 / data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/1_Tutorial.cfg: Tutorial: add summon quintain animation to Delfador. http://git.io/Y0sljA
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20140426 01:03:05< irker142> wesnoth: David Mikos wesnoth:master eadfe4a99076 / data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/1_Tutorial.cfg: Tutorial: set initial facing directions for the player and Delfador http://git.io/zOLD0w
20140426 01:03:25< Coffee_irc> and done
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20140426 01:07:57< iceiceice> gfgtdf: i think thunderstruck may have already fixed the time of day stuff
20140426 01:08:15< iceiceice> it looks like its already handled in a safe way and better than what i was going to do
20140426 01:08:18< iceiceice> going to test though
20140426 01:08:29< gfgtdf> it's on current master ?
20140426 01:08:35< iceiceice> yeah
20140426 01:08:38< iceiceice> this stuff in mp_connect_engine
20140426 01:08:53< iceiceice> update_and_send_diff takes a boolean that decides if it should do the time of day thing
20140426 01:09:02< gfgtdf> iceiceice: so the stuff in tod_manager is deleted now ?
20140426 01:09:07< iceiceice> no,
20140426 01:09:12< iceiceice> but its sort of "worked around"
20140426 01:09:15< iceiceice> similar to what i was going to do
20140426 01:09:18< gfgtdf> but it will be deleted ?
20140426 01:09:25< iceiceice> i wasnt planning to do that
20140426 01:09:44< gfgtdf> i thought you did
20140426 01:10:04< gfgtdf> i tihnk we shoudl delete that since it isnt replaysafe
20140426 01:10:11< iceiceice> hmmm
20140426 01:10:30< gfgtdf> wait
20140426 01:11:28< gfgtdf> we should delete the "random_start_key" but we cannot do that since level_ is const.
20140426 01:11:53< iceiceice> yeah i mean the whole thing is poorly thought out, the tod_manager shouldnt use const cast
20140426 01:12:03< iceiceice> but if its not broken i dont want to fix it for 1.12 right now
20140426 01:12:12< gfgtdf> i tihnk playcontroller uses const.
20140426 01:12:33< gfgtdf> i think all replays of spgames using random tod will be broken
20140426 01:13:25< iceiceice> hmmm
20140426 01:13:38< iceiceice> ok if we can verify that then yeah we gotta do something
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20140426 01:15:23< gfgtdf> iceiceice: just removing the randomtog key in  playcampaign.cpp::play_replay could also be a olution which doesnt contain a const cast
20140426 01:16:03< iceiceice> will it set the ToD correctly though?
20140426 01:16:08< iceiceice> you might still get OOS
20140426 01:17:18< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i think the tod is set corectyl since we save teh replaysnaposhort after we generate the tod, but the tod regeneratd that because it still haves teh generaterandom key
20140426 01:17:34< gfgtdf> but teh tod is generated again in replay i mean
20140426 01:17:58< gfgtdf> a better solution would e ignoring generaterandomtod if we already have valid tod
20140426 01:18:01< gfgtdf> be
20140426 01:19:06< gfgtdf> no wait
20140426 01:19:17< gfgtdf> i think what i said is wrong
20140426 01:19:39< gfgtdf> no it isnt
20140426 01:19:52< gfgtdf> well i have to go offline now
20140426 01:20:03< iceiceice> ok
20140426 01:20:04< iceiceice> c u
20140426 01:20:22< gfgtdf> idk whether what i have said is correct
20140426 01:20:24< gfgtdf> bb
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20140426 01:28:12< travis-ci> [travis-ci] gfgtdf/wesnoth-old#90 (sync12merge - f3631a3 : gfgtdf): The build passed.
20140426 01:28:12< travis-ci> [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/gfgtdf/wesnoth-old/builds/23799573
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20140426 01:37:50< travis-ci> [travis-ci] gfgtdf/wesnoth-old#91 (sync12merge - fbafb0c : gfgtdf): The build passed.
20140426 01:37:50< travis-ci> [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/gfgtdf/wesnoth-old/builds/23799887
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20140426 02:44:52-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string+feature freeze active on 1.12 | 240 bugs, 346 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Alternate logs: http://wesnoth.debian.net | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20140426 06:28:33< thunderstruck> gfgtdf: I don't recall fixing any TOD stuff.
20140426 06:50:53< Coffee_irc> thunderstruck: just take credit for it anyway ;)
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20140426 08:08:57< AI0867> 01:59 < gfgtdf> AI0867: the unit created in line 2166 i mean ← in that case lu is NULL, so we enter the second branch and hand ownership of u to unit_map
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20140426 08:35:13< Necrosporus> I have to_variable=some_var in my [side] tag. As I understood, leader definition wml comes directy into [side]. But this key doesn't seem to work. What is the best way to remove the leader from map until some event?
20140426 08:35:38< Necrosporus> kill it with store_unit in prestart?
20140426 08:35:50< AI0867> what, [side] to_variable ???
20140426 08:36:17< AI0867> I have no idea what you're trying to do here
20140426 08:36:38< Necrosporus> if I understood the help correctly, side tag contains also leader definition directly without additional tags, at least type=Leader_type works
20140426 08:37:38< AI0867> that is true
20140426 08:37:49< AI0867> still, no idea what to_variable is doing there
20140426 08:38:10< AI0867> ah, okay, that's a [unit] key
20140426 08:38:30< Necrosporus> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SingleUnitWML < to_variable: creates the unit into the given variable instead of placing it on the map. 
20140426 08:38:51< Necrosporus> that's what I want, to create the leader in variable and place on map later
20140426 08:40:35 * AI0867 is now checking the code to see if that'll actually work
20140426 08:40:55< AI0867> because the implicit leader is equivalent to a [leader] tag, which is slightly different from a [unit] tag
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20140426 08:44:52-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string+feature freeze active on 1.12 | 242 bugs, 346 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Alternate logs: http://wesnoth.debian.net | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20140426 08:47:58< AI0867> Necrosporus: okay, all [leader] tags implicitly have placement=map,leader unless overridden
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20140426 08:55:27< dacovale> I just found out that Ivanovic is traveling. Who should I contact with translator questions while he is out of contact?
20140426 08:56:07< Soliton> you could just ask here.
20140426 08:58:14< Necrosporus> AI0867, can I change the leader aftwards then?
20140426 08:58:37< Necrosporus> Create new unit and make it leader instead of previous
20140426 08:58:54< Necrosporus> I know there's can_recruit, but is it enough?
20140426 08:59:11< zookeeper> yes
20140426 09:00:52< AI0867> Necrosporus: and it looks like placement and to_variable might not even be valid keys in [side] [unit], just in [event] [unit]
20140426 09:01:02< AI0867> (that is, they only work in ActionWML, not in SideWML
20140426 09:01:03< AI0867> )
20140426 09:02:37< Necrosporus> I guess, that's not very logical...
20140426 09:03:49< zookeeper> just store it in an event.
20140426 09:05:12< Necrosporus> store and unstore immediately?
20140426 09:06:04< AI0867> you can use prestart. The player will never even see
20140426 09:08:50< dacovale> ok, I was the maintainer for the Swedish translation back in 2011. When I needed a break, no one wanted to step up, so I simply stopped working and thought to myself "the last three times our translation changed maintainer, it was because the previous one didn't answer, I'm just keeping up with tradition". That didn't happen, and no one ousted me. So, I'm starting up again with the translation, but have forgot
20140426 09:09:08< dacovale> Question: Who do I send translated .po files to?
20140426 09:09:26< Kevin_Xi> dacovale: cut from forgot
20140426 09:09:42< dacovale> So, I'm starting up again with the translation, but have forgotten most of what I need to know about who to send it to. 
20140426 09:12:12< dacovale> I could clone the git repo to my own github, make changes and send pull-requests, but I gather that takes some amount of trust, so I think mailing the files to someone with trust is preferred?
20140426 09:14:36< lipkab> dacovale: Making pull requests doesn't require any privileges.
20140426 09:15:04< lipkab> It's the same as if you sent a patch... it's just a bit more convenient.
20140426 09:15:11< dacovale> so that's the easiest way to submit translations?
20140426 09:15:39< lipkab> I don't know if it's the easiest, but it's certainly a valid method.
20140426 09:15:50< dacovale> good enough :) thanks
20140426 09:16:25< lipkab> You're welcome.
20140426 09:25:21< AI0867> dacovale: well, the translation manager is ivanovic, so that's generally who you send translations to
20140426 09:25:34< AI0867> I run wescamp, so that's where UMC translations go
20140426 09:25:47< AI0867> you can make pull requests, but there are a few things to think of
20140426 09:26:37< AI0867> various translation tools reformat the po files, which makes for horrendous diffs, so we tend to run some tools on the patched files before committing them
20140426 09:27:01< AI0867> so if you want to make PRs, check if your diffs look sane before sending them off
20140426 09:27:40< AI0867> (and you should update changelog & players_changelog too)
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20140426 09:34:16< AI0867> Necrosporus: okay, let me amend that. placement is valid everwhere, but to_variable is interpreted by ActionWML's [unit] handler
20140426 09:35:18< Necrosporus> so that's why it doesn't work within [side]
20140426 09:35:54< AI0867> yeah
20140426 09:36:30< AI0867> you can use placement=recall to put the leader to the recall list, but that's not really an improvement
20140426 09:37:02< Necrosporus> why not?
20140426 09:37:38< AI0867> well, you'll still have to remove it from the recall list before the player takes control, or he'll be… oh wait
20140426 09:37:56< Necrosporus> I guess, I'll just try
20140426 09:38:13< AI0867> but yeah, this is some documentation that should be updated
20140426 09:39:19< Necrosporus> Seem to be immediate defeat, but I didn't create any other units yet
20140426 09:40:38< AI0867> okay, the full list of keys that aren't valid in the static [unit] tags seems to be: side,to_variable
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20140426 09:41:24< AI0867> and since the side key is present in [side] anyway…
20140426 09:41:33< AI0867> you found the only one that doesn't seem to do anything
20140426 09:44:21< dacovale> AI0867: thanks, I'll remember to check the diffs. 
20140426 09:44:21< dacovale> As for updating the changelogs, I assume you mean that I should make sure it says "sv" under the updated translations column for Version 1.11.13+dev ?
20140426 09:45:23< dacovale> (or rather "Swedish")
20140426 09:46:18< Necrosporus> error engine: could not de-serialize unit: 'game_error: creating unit with an empty type field'
20140426 09:46:30< Necrosporus> I think I'm doing something wrong...
20140426 09:48:10< Necrosporus> I can recall this unit, but it's not created with [unit] within [side]
20140426 09:54:37< Necrosporus> I see, my own mistake
20140426 09:56:27< Necrosporus> So it works, if I have other unit with canrecruit=yes, I can I have leader in recall
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20140426 09:58:49< Necrosporus> And that's not even mandatory, I can start game giving the player only one regular unit
20140426 09:59:45< AI0867> dacovale: yes, that's what I mean
20140426 10:01:28< AI0867> Necrosporus: you can also create a 'leader' with canrecruit=no
20140426 10:01:36< AI0867> it's just set to yes by default
20140426 10:02:04< Necrosporus> Anyway, [leader] is equivalent to no tag at all?
20140426 10:03:07< Necrosporus> Seem like if I create map with no player unit, there's immediate defeat, but if I place at least one, not necessarily the leader, the game starts
20140426 10:06:13< Necrosporus> When I plcae leader definition into [leader] game doesn't start Error while playing the game: game_error: creating unit with an empty type field
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20140426 10:08:24< AI0867> Necrosporus: yes
20140426 10:08:53< AI0867> no_leader=yes
20140426 10:09:00< AI0867> then it doesn't try to use [side] as a [leader]
20140426 10:09:50< AI0867> [leader] was supposed to replace that eventually, so I suppose some "nobody's trying to create a leader here" logic would make sense
20140426 10:10:20< AI0867> is there anything mandatory in a [unit] tag other than type?
20140426 10:11:06< Necrosporus> Anyway, I don't find it very logical to mix different tags content under one
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20140426 10:13:31< Necrosporus> I wonder if there's any easy way to let player lose the leader unit without being defeated. not that I'm going to use it right away
20140426 10:14:27< AI0867> multiple leaders works, or an [event] that restores the leader in some way
20140426 10:14:38< AI0867> there's also a new [scenario] key for this
20140426 10:14:45< AI0867> but that might be 1.13-only
20140426 10:15:10< AI0867> it may have been backported though
20140426 10:16:50< AI0867> fight_on_without_leader=yes
20140426 10:16:53< AI0867> backported to 1.12
20140426 10:16:57< AI0867> Necrosporus: ^
20140426 10:17:08< AI0867> it's present in 1.11.13
20140426 10:17:12< Necrosporus> I can Imagine some scenario with team of heroes which is lost only when all the heroes are dead and noone can recruit
20140426 10:18:27< Necrosporus> So it is impossible with stable version?
20140426 10:20:01< AI0867> you meant 1.10?
20140426 10:20:05< AI0867> s/meant/mean/
20140426 10:20:12< AI0867> there's various hacks you can do
20140426 10:20:24< AI0867> like adding an invisible leader somewhere
20140426 10:20:42< AI0867> or making them all leaders and simply not give them a recruit list (or castles)
20140426 10:21:10< AI0867> but that key was introduced in 1.11.13 (and the unreleased 1.13.0)
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20140426 10:23:38< Necrosporus> #dummy unit which should never actually be used; # exists only to create an entry in the help system.
20140426 10:24:08< Necrosporus> AI0867, yes
20140426 10:24:46< Necrosporus> Suddenly Galleon is a dummy unit, which should never be used... 
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20140426 10:28:10< AI0867> Necrosporus: suddenly? It's been that way since the start, and the comment was last updated in 1.3
20140426 10:31:56< Necrosporus> Though there's one scenario where it's used nevertheless
20140426 10:32:04< Necrosporus> campaigns/Sceptre_of_Fire/scenarios/7_Outriding_the_Outriders.cfg
20140426 10:32:30< Necrosporus> And few others where it's used as move unit fake
20140426 10:33:03< AI0867> and with "the start" I mean 0.5
20140426 10:33:12< AI0867> when it was added to the game
20140426 10:33:19< AI0867> it's meant for cutscenes and the like
20140426 10:33:25< AI0867> not for combat
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20140426 10:34:23< AI0867> so this commit may have been incorrect: 9e157beac66747f216c0b
20140426 10:35:03< Necrosporus> HP=1 suggest that's not very useful unit for combat 
20140426 10:37:33< Necrosporus> Though boat has same amount of HP and has no comment about being a dummy unit
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20140426 10:40:07< AI0867> You're looking for logic here
20140426 10:40:08< AI0867> there may not be any
20140426 10:40:08< AI0867> just history
20140426 10:40:47< Necrosporus> AI0867, could you give a link on the commit  9e157beac66747f216c0b if it was addressed to me? 
20140426 10:41:21< Necrosporus> Also this unit is used only in one campaign
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20140426 10:41:35< AI0867> shikadibot: log 9e157beac66747f216c0b
20140426 10:41:36< shikadibot> AI0867: Revision 9e157beac667 (Eric S. Raymond) on Thu Jul 26 13:08:40 2007:
20140426 10:41:39< shikadibot> AI0867: Attacks are identified by order, not by name.
20140426 10:41:42< shikadibot> AI0867:  
20140426 10:41:44< shikadibot> AI0867: Eliminate one, in the Galleon, that is never used.
20140426 10:41:47< shikadibot> AI0867: Web interface URL: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/9e157beac667
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20140426 10:45:35< Necrosporus> AI0867, I'm not sure how is it used in that scenario but it's defined in [unit] tag
20140426 10:45:40< Necrosporus> I didn't play it
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20140426 10:47:19< AI0867> anyway, I'm off
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20140426 11:25:17< dacovale> Anyone know if 80 character width is important to preserve in .po files that I send in?
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20140426 13:32:25< aquileia> shadowm: As my request for gna access was denied... could you please mark the following bugs as fixed and close them if applicable? http://gna.org/bugs/?19482 http://gna.org/bugs/?13333 http://gna.org/bugs/?17141 http://gna.org/bugs/?13248
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20140426 13:46:44< irker722> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:master 8e9780d6069d / data/ai/lua/ai_helper.lua: ai_helper.get_live_units: don't use filter_wml http://git.io/HX4MuQ
20140426 13:47:39< irker722> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:1.12 984f8b196ac6 / data/ai/lua/ai_helper.lua: ai_helper.get_live_units: don't use filter_wml http://git.io/uQOJvA
20140426 13:48:33< mattsc> gfgtdf: there ^.  Thanks for pointing that out, I thought I had taken care of all of those.
20140426 13:50:18< mattsc> It does not gain 2 orders of magnitude of speed like what AI0867 and you did yesterday, but in my tests it was between 10 and 20 times faster.
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20140426 13:53:28< mattsc> There’s still a filter_wml left in generic_rush_engine.lua, but that’s for accessing a units attack specials (to see if the unit has a poison attack).
20140426 13:54:45< mattsc> AFAIK, I can only do that through filter_wml or the Lua .__cfg table dump, both of which are slow (without looking at the code, I’d wager a guess that they use the same or a similar method internally).
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20140426 14:18:26< gfgtdf> ye, i'd guess that __cfg is even slower because because it also has to translate the wml table to a luawml table.
20140426 14:18:36< irker722> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:master e99423bad9b1 / data/ai/ (lua/ai_helper.lua micro_ais/cas/ca_bottleneck_move.lua): Lua AIs: do not use empty tables as filters http://git.io/GEUpAA
20140426 14:19:21< irker722> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:1.12 d88bc01f62b5 / data/ai/ (lua/ai_helper.lua micro_ais/cas/ca_bottleneck_move.lua): Lua AIs: do not use empty tables as filters http://git.io/hcL-JQ
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20140426 14:34:58< EdB> $4
20140426 14:35:34< EdB> sorry it's my cat
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20140426 17:07:30< shadowm> aquileia: #19482 is already closed and marked Won't Fix, there's nothing for me to do there.
20140426 17:08:28< shadowm> aquileia: From what I gather #13333 would be Works For Me at this point, not Fixed unless you are certain that there is a concrete fix in place.
20140426 17:08:57< shadowm> aquileia: It's assigned to mordante, so if you want to confirm or change anything about it, ask mordante[4~.
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20140426 17:10:56< shadowm> aquileia: I'm absolutely certain that #13248 and #19482 can still happen provided that you can display characters under the truncation limit with sufficiently long glyphs.
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20140426 17:11:59< shadowm> aquileia: Alternatively, just increase the font size a bit.
20140426 17:12:12< shadowm> s/long/wide/
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20140426 17:15:54< aquileia> shadowm: In both types of textboxes, scrolling is active and will shift the text accordingly... or did I misunderstand the report?
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20140426 17:16:41< shadowm> #13248 and #19482 are about listboxes, not textboxes.
20140426 17:17:18< shadowm> GUI1 listboxes do not support horizontal scrolling in any fashion at all.
20140426 17:17:55< aquileia> I thought you were talking about 13333
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20140426 17:20:39< shadowm> I mentioned the issue numbers for every context switch in order to not leave any room for confusion, so...
20140426 17:21:24< aquileia> Yes, it's my fault
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20140426 17:23:42< aquileia> shadowm: http://imagebin.org/307624
20140426 17:24:47< aquileia> You are right, it's a little over the border
20140426 17:24:52< shadowm> Also that.
20140426 17:25:16< shadowm> Because Russians haven't invented a shorter word for "Multiplayer" yet.
20140426 17:25:17< aquileia> but the truncation reduces that to a minimal amount
20140426 17:27:15< aquileia> So you are right in that the issue was shifted - still, this is distinct from the reported issue
20140426 17:29:17< shadowm> Maybe add this information to #13248, but since I care more about the general case than particular instances of a bug, it's definitely not Fixed to me, it's only awaiting to be visibly triggered again.
20140426 17:29:18< aquileia> shadowm: thanks for handling those
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20140426 17:30:02< shadowm> And as I said #19482 is already closed, so there is no point i changing it (especially since it's still an issue, albeit less severe).
20140426 17:30:17< iceiceice> gfgtdf: i tested, i can't reproduce any random ToD errors on 1.11.13 anymore
20140426 17:30:42< iceiceice> for client, observer, or replay
20140426 17:31:51< aquileia> I'd say in that case, IMHO the comment should go to #19482 and #13248 should be closed as the english version is fine
20140426 17:32:33< shadowm> Nobody will see #19482 again because it's closed.
20140426 17:33:07< iceiceice> i marked bug #15948 "ready for test"
20140426 17:33:19< iceiceice> it might just be my test method i guess
20140426 17:33:23< iceiceice> idk
20140426 17:34:49< aquileia> shadowm: But the "Won't fix" is the statemant about the unresolved truncation limit issue with wide glyphs while #13248 is fixed
20140426 17:35:05< aquileia> So I'd say it's correct to have both closed
20140426 17:35:53< shadowm> #19482 is dead, let it continue to rest in its grave.
20140426 17:36:35< shadowm> I'm sure it's not the first instance of a bug that's been discarded and later revisited from a different angle.
20140426 17:37:05< shadowm> You may claim they are fixed, but as I said the underlying principle is still there.
20140426 17:37:20< shadowm> So for me, the programmer, they are not fixed.
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20140426 17:41:27< aquileia> In that case I'll do as you want and amend 13248 instead of 19482 (even if I honestly disagree)
20140426 17:46:50< shadowm> The issue with Russian isn't caused by wide glyphs, btw, it's caused by wide _strings_ in the other listbox, the one implementing the pagination menu at the left.
20140426 17:48:15< shadowm> The pagination menu takes up extra space and the advanced preferences listbox layout goes wrong as a result of an interaction with the dialog constraints.
20140426 17:49:07< aquileia> Too late, I already commented...
20140426 17:49:26< shadowm> Thus it becomes evident that the issue is not as one-dimensional as one may think at first glance.
20140426 17:49:51< shadowm> I thought it was obvious at this point, though, given the screenshot and what I pointed out about the Russian language.
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20140426 20:44:47< mattsc> zookeeper: is there a way to filter for units with weapons (any weapons, rather than weapons with a specific name) other than using [filter_wml] ?
20140426 20:44:57< mattsc> … and in mean in SUFs, not events.
20140426 20:44:59< zookeeper> i don't think so
20140426 20:45:50< mattsc> Okay, that’s what I thought - I’ll just have to be smart about the coding then, so that this isn’t done too many times by the AIs.  :P
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20140426 20:59:09< irker848> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth:master 8f87c627859c / data/campaigns/Northern_Rebirth/scenarios/05a_The_Pursuit.cfg: Prevent Malifor from respawning in cave wall http://git.io/bzLcgQ
20140426 20:59:44< mattsc> gfgtdf: you were right.  I tried these two method of finding units with poison attacks:  http://pastebin.com/Xirfe4GP
20140426 21:00:01< mattsc> and the one using __cfg takes about 1.5 times longer than the one with filter_wml
20140426 21:03:01< gfgtdf> mattsc: if you think it woudl speed up the ai much, you can always implement attack filter for units.
20140426 21:03:35< Aishiko> mattsc, trying to sort units by, say those with melee weapons only or ranged only?
20140426 21:04:08< gfgtdf> mattsc: i tihnk we already have a fiterwml for attacks, allowing a 'has_attack_that _matched_filter' filter in SUF woudl just seem normal
20140426 21:04:47< gfgtdf> mattsc: so it wouldnt be very hard
20140426 21:05:33< mattsc> gfgtdf: I don’t think it’s a high priority, it’s rather straight-forward to work around.  The main thing is not forgetting to do so (and for most AIs it won’t matter much anyway)
20140426 21:06:04< mattsc> Aishiko: sorry, what do you mean?
20140426 21:07:14< mattsc> Aishiko: If you meant my question to zookeeper, an AI that wants to attack needs to know whether a unit actually has a weapon.
20140426 21:07:28< Aishiko> filtering the weapons, ohhh
20140426 21:07:39< mattsc> Using attacks_left does not work for that, it is set to 1 even for units that don’t have attacks.
20140426 21:08:32< Aishiko> errr that seems like it shouldn't do that
20140426 21:09:59< shadowm> Not having attacks != not having attacks left.
20140426 21:10:36< shadowm> You could give an [attack] to the unit in an event and it would then be able to attack assuming it has attacks left.
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20140426 21:11:40< mattsc> Right.  And that’s why we need to check for both here:  https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/data/ai/lua/ai_helper.lua#L742
20140426 21:12:26< mattsc> The problem is, the check for attacks is slow, but as the comment says …
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20140426 21:13:10< shadowm> Implement a new SUF option?
20140426 21:13:12< mattsc> Based on the test I just did, I can speed this up by ~30% by using the filter_wml method, but that doesn’t exactly make it fast.
20140426 21:14:01< mattsc> shadowm: sure, that’s an option (and what gfgtdf just said too), but for now it’s not high enough a priority for me to do that.  This is not the limiting factor for me and there are easy workarounds.
20140426 21:14:15< mattsc> If somebody else wants to do it though, I won’t complain.  ;)
20140426 21:19:36< irker848> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth:1.12 559b10637db1 / data/campaigns/Northern_Rebirth/scenarios/05a_The_Pursuit.cfg: Prevent Malifor from respawning in cave wall http://git.io/fK5vnQ
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20140426 21:35:50< Coffee_irc> gfgtdf: just wondering if you missed adding a changelog entry for the fix to the unit attack from more than 1 hex away?
20140426 21:37:03< gfgtdf> ye i forgot i guess
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20140426 21:40:04< Coffee_irc> gfgtdf: thanks for fixing that by the way
20140426 21:42:01< mattsc> Coffee_irc: quick question: is the old animation syntax still going to work in 1.14 and later, or is it going to be phased out?
20140426 21:42:16< Coffee_irc> mattsc: some things will be phased out
20140426 21:42:17< gfgtdf> 	Coffee_irc: it was a rather stuppid bug introduced by me.
20140426 21:42:35< Coffee_irc> mattsc: like the [begin] tags
20140426 21:43:46< Coffee_irc> mattsc: I figure that when Aishiko and mordante get the spritesheet stuff up and running I can try to help some of the UMC authors changeover gracefully to the new syntax
20140426 21:43:52< shadowm> What happened to the idea to keep backwards compatibility?
20140426 21:43:56< Coffee_irc> but otherwise take it slowly
20140426 21:44:27< Coffee_irc> shadowm: [begin] has been set as 'depreciated' since wesnoth 1.2 or something
20140426 21:44:53< shadowm> I assume you mean begin=, because I've never heard of a [begin].
20140426 21:45:15< Coffee_irc> shadowm: sorry, yes [frame]begin=...[/frame]
20140426 21:45:16< mattsc> Coffee_irc: but I assume you don’t have to use the ranges, if you don’t want to?
20140426 21:45:33< shadowm> I find it easier to work with begin/end because I need to do less maths to determine the 0 frame. :\
20140426 21:45:59< Coffee_irc> shadowm: it causes extra complexity in the code which could be removed
20140426 21:46:13< zookeeper> yeah i always liked begin/end too, it was just easier to think of the frames that way, but i've long since resigned to their demise
20140426 21:46:37< Coffee_irc> well, they were slated to be axed before I got here ;)
20140426 21:46:57< shadowm> But it didn't happen, so people kept using them.
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20140426 21:47:40< Coffee_irc> shadowm: a well thought out spritesheet syntax might fix the problem I think
20140426 21:48:24< shadowm> I don't see how it solves the problem of having to do more maths in the code.
20140426 21:48:35< shadowm> The WML, not the C++.
20140426 21:48:37< Coffee_irc> shadowm: what do you mean?
20140426 21:48:50< shadowm> 18:45:32 <shadowm> I find it easier to work with begin/end because I need to do less maths to determine the 0 frame.
20140426 21:48:57< Coffee_irc> 0 frame?
20140426 21:49:04< shadowm> begin=0
20140426 21:49:06< Coffee_irc> what are you on about
20140426 21:49:25< zookeeper> he means that time 0 is what all combat anims are centered around, and when you only got durations and the begin time of the whole anim, you have to do math in your head to figure out at what point the animation hits time 0
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20140426 21:49:28< shadowm> Or the closest neighbor.
20140426 21:49:37< Coffee_irc> oh
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20140426 21:49:43< Coffee_irc> that is actually incorrect
20140426 21:49:46< zookeeper> time 0 being the moment the attack hits or misses (or a unit gets healed, etc)
20140426 21:50:01< Coffee_irc> the time is not actually 0 for some things that people think
20140426 21:50:27< Coffee_irc> hence my quest to fix the sound timings over the last year or so with default units
20140426 21:50:50< Coffee_irc> more like -75 for quick slashes, -100 for strikes, -25 for defense sounds
20140426 21:50:53< Coffee_irc> and so on
20140426 21:51:04< shadowm> I'm not talking about sounds.
20140426 21:51:29< Coffee_irc> shadowm: then what?
20140426 21:51:31< zookeeper> that's a confusing example, as the time is 0 even if someone timed a sound wrong
20140426 21:52:02< shadowm> If you add factors like sounds and the user-configurable animation speed factor, then sure, it's unlikely you want to have certain actions take place at t=0, but it's still a useful reference.
20140426 21:52:43< Coffee_irc> shadowm: with spritesheets or the new syntax, the whole animation would get coded (IMO) in just one [frame]
20140426 21:53:07< shadowm> That's not the point of contention here.
20140426 21:53:07< Coffee_irc> for each type of animation (defense, attack, movement, standing)
20140426 21:53:17< Coffee_irc> begin is not useful then
20140426 21:53:23< Coffee_irc> because you already set start time
20140426 21:53:27< shadowm> What actually matters is what gets displayed/fired at what time and in what order.
20140426 21:53:44< Coffee_irc> shadowm: and hence the problem
20140426 21:53:49< shadowm> And for that you need to know the position in the animation's timeline.
20140426 21:53:52< zookeeper> begin/end are of course mutually exclusive with start_time
20140426 21:54:00< Coffee_irc> you can mix and match with begin/end and this causes issues to occur
20140426 21:54:16< shadowm> And knowing the position in the animation's timeline is made trivial with begin/end, but requires extra arithmetics with anything else.
20140426 21:54:37< Coffee_irc> shadowm: you mean to synchronize 2 frame blocks together?
20140426 21:54:41< shadowm> Essentially, I have to code animations with a calculator in hand.
20140426 21:55:05< shadowm> I'm not talking about concurrent animations, I'm talking about individual animations by themselves.
20140426 21:55:16< Coffee_irc> shadowm: I don't really understand
20140426 21:55:27< zookeeper> let me demonstrate:
20140426 21:55:28< zookeeper> start_time=-250
20140426 21:55:33< zookeeper> image="units/human-loyalists/spearman-attack-s-[1~14].png:25"
20140426 21:55:39< zookeeper> which frame is playing at time 0?
20140426 21:56:01< zookeeper> you have to calculate how the frames add up to figure that out
20140426 21:56:25< zookeeper> with begin/end, you just find the [frame] with begin <= 0 and end >= 0
20140426 21:56:27< Coffee_irc> zookeeper: don't you have to with begin/end also?
20140426 21:57:10< Coffee_irc> you have the opposite problem of figuring out how low each animation plays for?
20140426 21:57:15< Coffee_irc> *long
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20140426 21:57:43< zookeeper> not really, i just look at the first [frame] to see when it starts, and the last one to see when it stops
20140426 21:58:24< Coffee_irc> zookeeper: in practise I found a lot of units where the being/end tags overlapped or left gaps with default units
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20140426 21:59:50< zookeeper> yeah, people always mess up animations
20140426 22:01:03< zookeeper> and they especially tend to mess up the time 0 business, making sounds play at the wrong time and so forth
20140426 22:01:58< Coffee_irc> I thought about this before actually
20140426 22:02:12< Coffee_irc> and what would help is if the WML syntax could do preprocessor math
20140426 22:02:26< Coffee_irc> just simple arithmetic
20140426 22:02:53< Coffee_irc> so you could say start_time=($-25*7)
20140426 22:02:57< Coffee_irc> or something like that
20140426 22:03:08< gfgtdf> Coffee_irc: you can do that 
20140426 22:03:26< shadowm> gfgtdf: You are thinking of inline formulas in WML events, $().
20140426 22:03:26< gfgtdf> ah preprocessor you said
20140426 22:03:32< Coffee_irc> gfgtdf: it don't work
20140426 22:03:37< shadowm> Those are only available for stuff managed with vconfig.
20140426 22:04:00< Coffee_irc> then you could easily set timings to match
20140426 22:04:49< shadowm> The solution to overlapping frames or gaps between frames is actually simple.
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20140426 22:05:02< shadowm> Just invalidate the whole animation and print a highly-visible error message.
20140426 22:05:49< Coffee_irc> shadowm: it requires special coding
20140426 22:06:15< shadowm> I gather it wouldn't require special coding if animation frames were all processed and ready to be rendered before starting.
20140426 22:06:30< shadowm> Which would incidentally eliminate the mid-animation cache miss issue.
20140426 22:07:54< Coffee_irc> shadowm: seems like that could be more easily done with a spritesheet syntax
20140426 22:08:26< Coffee_irc> just preload the whole spritesheet into memory and just reference it instead of creating separate animations based on the same images
20140426 22:08:50< shadowm> Sigh.
20140426 22:09:04< Coffee_irc> seeing as we should be getting spritesheets from GSoC any other approach seems like wasted effort to me
20140426 22:09:22< shadowm> We discussed this already, you can't reasonably expect an animation to use exactly one spritesheet.
20140426 22:09:54< shadowm> Neither you can assume it will first require all image files at start_time.
20140426 22:10:00< Coffee_irc> shadowm: if you specify all the spritesheets in the top of the unit WML file you should be able to load them all into memory
20140426 22:11:28< Coffee_irc> I'm happy to handball to Aishiko :)
20140426 22:11:43< shadowm> Well, seems we are all betting on her project anyway.
20140426 22:13:42< Aishiko> I'll take some of that action
20140426 22:14:27 * shadowm will make sure to remember this when the time to evaluate the outcome arrives.
20140426 22:15:45< shadowm> And by "evaluate the outcome" I mean port my add-ons to 1.13.x.
20140426 22:15:52< Coffee_irc> Aishiko: hopefully this all makes sense in context of what you are doing with spritesheets
20140426 22:15:54< Aishiko> Coffee_irc, the WML file for the units will have a [spritesheet] or simlar tag section that breaks down each image so that any image from that sheet can be found and SDL_Rected immediately
20140426 22:16:37< shadowm> It sounds like you don't want to do much of an effort in terms of backwards compatibility this time... we haven't even gotten deprecation warnings for begin/end in 1.11.x, so I guess everything will break all of a sudden in some 1.13.x release?
20140426 22:16:47< shadowm> Coffee_irc: ^
20140426 22:16:51< Coffee_irc> Aishiko: and then we should be able preload all the spritesheets for a unit on first display?
20140426 22:17:10< Aishiko> Coffee_irc, I see there being only 1 spritesheet for a unit
20140426 22:17:26< Coffee_irc> shadowm: I won't remove anything without a depreciation message first
20140426 22:17:47< Coffee_irc> and discussing with other developers
20140426 22:18:19< shadowm> Aishiko: Units may require other spritesheets. For example, five units share the faerie fire effect halos (Elvish Sorceress, Elvish Enchantress, Elvish Sylph, Elvish Lord, Elvish High Lord).
20140426 22:18:20< Coffee_irc> shadowm: I thinking that for 1.13+2 it will be gone
20140426 22:18:24< Aishiko> I mean at first 1 per unit and then allowing more then one if there is need but really wouldn't one be enough?
20140426 22:18:43< Coffee_irc> Aishiko: sometimes halos are needed as well as the unit sprites
20140426 22:18:43< shadowm> Coffee_irc: Yeah, that's not good enough either.
20140426 22:18:45< zookeeper> if you want to get rid of something in 1.13, then please put the deprecation warning in 1.12
20140426 22:19:08< shadowm> Essentially, you aren't going to give people a chance to fix it in the previous stable series.
20140426 22:19:22< Aishiko> ohh those, I would just load those secondary spritesheets as needed, sort of like what is currently done
20140426 22:19:22< shadowm> Unless you heed zookeeper's advice.
20140426 22:19:23< Coffee_irc> zookeeper: I am not thinking of removing begin/end in 1.13
20140426 22:19:45< Coffee_irc> rather for 1.15
20140426 22:20:02< zookeeper> if something is going to get removed, the deprecation warning should be there for a full stable cycle, not just a subset of a dev cycle
20140426 22:20:11< zookeeper> the latter has unfortunately been common in the past
20140426 22:20:20< shadowm> Coffee_irc: It sounded like you wanted to remove them as soon as possible to decrease code complexity, though? I'm confused.
20140426 22:20:41< Coffee_irc> zookeeper: let me repeat - I AM NOT GOING TO SIMPLY REMOVE SOMETHING WITHOUT WARNING IN 1.13/1.14
20140426 22:21:20< Coffee_irc> shadowm: no, I want to lay down a path to remove the begin/end syntax over time properly
20140426 22:21:22< shadowm> My ears.
20140426 22:21:23< zookeeper> ok, ok :P
20140426 22:21:55< shadowm> I don't like long-term plans in this project, they tend to never come to fruition.
20140426 22:22:10< Coffee_irc> Aishiko: I am thinking that we can implement a cache that says if a particular spritesheet has been loaded before and not load it twice
20140426 22:22:33< Coffee_irc> and thus eliminate redundancy with animations that use the same spritesheets
20140426 22:22:43< Coffee_irc> for example, halos shared by multiple units
20140426 22:22:48< shadowm> And I still fear 1.13.x may take two years to find its way to the stable announcement ceremony location.
20140426 22:23:14< shadowm> It may get mugged or even murdered along the way.
20140426 22:24:19< Coffee_irc> Aishiko: I'm happy to help with things out of scope of your GSoC project
20140426 22:26:26< Aishiko> Coffee_irc, actual a cache for the sheets is planed but I have no clue on what sort of rules I'll need or how to implement them yet, I'd be happy for any help you wanted to give to that step of the project
20140426 22:27:15< Aishiko> and I agree there should be a check to make sure we don't load the same image twice
20140426 22:28:49< Coffee_irc> Aishiko: preloading whole spreitesheets would eliminate issues with first animation loading on slower machines
20140426 22:29:07< Coffee_irc> currently each animation is loaded into memory
20140426 22:29:25< shadowm> You mean frame?
20140426 22:29:30< Coffee_irc> yeah
20140426 22:29:46< Coffee_irc> combining frames together has helped a bit
20140426 22:30:09< Aishiko> currently the plan is to on the unit call, to load the spritesheet into cache
20140426 22:30:10< Coffee_irc> it lowers RAM usage by a couple of megabytes from 1.10
20140426 22:30:32< shadowm> RAM isn't an issue here, it's I/O latency that's an issue.
20140426 22:30:53< Coffee_irc> Aishiko: just on first display of the unit would make sense to me, as it will need to display a standing animation anyway
20140426 22:31:01< shadowm> So it's effectively not helped me at all since I'm not in the low-end demographic.
20140426 22:31:39< Aishiko> so when the map is drawn, it;ll grab the unit spritesheet and upon opening the recall/recruit dialogs the sheets will be grabbed for those units that are not already loaded
20140426 22:31:39< Coffee_irc> shadowm: yes, the problem is that the images are not loaded into RAM, unless your computer decides it is a good idea
20140426 22:31:45< shadowm> I mean, RAM usage here is an extremely variable aspect.
20140426 22:32:10< shadowm> It depends on what scenario you are playing, how many units there are on the map, etc.
20140426 22:32:28< Coffee_irc> Aishiko: could even be on first display of the unit (be easier to implement)
20140426 22:32:31< gfgtdf> under wich conditions did we previously load an image 2 times or more form disk in one game ?
20140426 22:32:46< shadowm> Whereas disk access is normally something you want to avoid in multimedia applications.
20140426 22:33:03< Aishiko> Coffee_irc, that was what I meant I just didn't know what terms to put it in
20140426 22:33:30< shadowm> The less time you spend on system calls on the same thread that's doing the rendering, the more fluid ("professional") the user experience.
20140426 22:33:45< Coffee_irc> shadowm: we need some way of marking png images for spritesheets to be priority loaded into RAM if space available I think
20140426 22:34:22< Coffee_irc> and not loading the same spritesheet twice
20140426 22:34:40< shadowm> I think a reasonable heuristic for preloading images would be to load them as soon as a unit is instantiated.
20140426 22:35:05< shadowm> Since the moment you have a unit on the map, you just have to assume that its animations will be used at some point.
20140426 22:35:13< Coffee_irc> shadowm: if a unit uses a spritesheet, then to display the unit at all the spritesshet must be loaded
20140426 22:35:24< Coffee_irc> it is then the same spritesheet for all animations
20140426 22:35:54< Coffee_irc> so, by the time you see it in the recruit dialog you must have already loaded all the animations
20140426 22:36:07< shadowm> As for not reloading spritesheets, uh, the point of having a cache interface (like the image::locator and image::get_image() infra atm) is to keep all those details from reaching the players and content authors.
20140426 22:36:45< Coffee_irc> shadowm: yeah, we might even get away with using the existing cache :)
20140426 22:36:47< shadowm> I mean, if I wanted to implement an image preloader in my campaigns for 1.12.x, I actually have the tools already.
20140426 22:37:56-!- Aishiko [~Aishiko@cpe-065-191-176-226.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20140426 22:37:59< shadowm> I'd just need to drop a bit of Lua to get all unit types, iterate over every image and halo attribute in their WML, and ask for their dimensions (wesnoth.get_image_size) to force them to enter the cache.
20140426 22:38:25< shadowm> (wesnoth.get_image_size is implemented using image::get_image(), that's why that'd work.)
20140426 22:38:56< Coffee_irc> Aishiko: the existing image::locator might be something to look at as a simple way to implement a cache
20140426 22:39:07< shadowm> But I presume the cache would grow ridiculously large since we currently use software surfaces on system RAM with RLE compression, which isn't that effective for complex bitmaps.
20140426 22:39:34< shadowm> *with (sometimes)
20140426 22:39:59< Coffee_irc> shadowm: each image is larger, but you load less images
20140426 22:40:22< shadowm> (Hm, always? Now I think I read the locators always compress the IPF pipeline results.)
20140426 22:41:20< shadowm> Well, the image cache is in RAM, so unless the heap is horribly fragmented at a given time or the cache has far too many times, having less cache items doesn't help too much.
20140426 22:41:38-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20140426 22:43:23< Coffee_irc> shadowm: my gut feeling is that animations would benefit a lot from spritesheets
20140426 22:43:37< shadowm> ... I know.
20140426 22:43:41< Coffee_irc> this is probably why most other games use them
20140426 22:44:30< shadowm> I'm not saying it's wrong to expect that, I'm just saying they are not some kind of magical panacea either.
20140426 22:44:52< Coffee_irc> shadowm: for me they are because I don't have to do anything :)
20140426 22:46:20-!- tomreyn [~tomreyn@megaglest/team/tomreyn] has quit [Quit: tomreyn]
20140426 22:46:44< Coffee_irc> shadowm: moving to SDL 2 and spritesheets (remember this is for animated terrain as well) I hope will substantially increase the fps
20140426 22:47:39< Coffee_irc> I have a good graphics card and computer and it isn't quite smooth on 3x speed as other programs are
20140426 22:47:47< Coffee_irc> in comparison
20140426 22:48:24< shadowm> It's all smooth here when not scrolling and when not stuck in a filesystem-access system call.
20140426 22:48:46< Coffee_irc> one thing that would benefit a lot from a higher fps are the new movement animations
20140426 22:48:54< shadowm> Also, the graphics card specs are largely irrelevant atm, but you know that already.
20140426 22:48:56< Coffee_irc> they are hard to make out when you increase the speed
20140426 22:49:28< shadowm> How is a higher framerate going to eliminate the problem of, uh, human vision not being fast enough to keep up?
20140426 22:49:44< shadowm> I mean, really.
20140426 22:49:56< Coffee_irc> shadowm: well, I like to think that my brain is capable of following fast movment ;)
20140426 22:50:04< Coffee_irc> but it is the computer that can't keep up
20140426 22:50:20< shadowm> I'm pretty sure it's my vision, here.
20140426 22:50:45< shadowm> If I bring down the speed near the default of 1.0, movement animations are more evident at the cost of gameplay fluidity.
20140426 22:50:49< shadowm> Which is why I hate movement animations.
20140426 22:50:54< Coffee_irc> you can actually see that the game struggles to put out the fps when you go to say 2x with movement animations
20140426 22:51:28< shadowm> I.e. ever since _somebody_ decided to request longer movement animations I've been forced to play at 1.75x speed in order to actually be able to _play_.
20140426 22:51:31< Coffee_irc> but it is also harder to make out the animations
20140426 22:52:09< Coffee_irc> I've kind of settled at about 3x speed myself
20140426 22:52:16< Coffee_irc> but I like the animations
20140426 22:52:25< shadowm> Same goes with around 25% of our attack animations atm (not the other 75% because, who cares about priorities I guess).
20140426 22:53:11< shadowm> Playing at 1.0 may be cool for first-time players, but it's definitely not advisable for anyone who takes the gameplay seriously.
20140426 22:53:49< Coffee_irc> shadowm: well... actually it is harder to play as a beginner IIRC
20140426 22:54:18< shadowm> It'd work if this were an RPG with parties of less than 10 units, but here it's not unusual to have a map with around 50 units battling each other every turn.
20140426 22:54:42-!- Aishiko [~Aishiko@cpe-065-191-176-226.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140426 22:55:11< Coffee_irc> well 3x speed is good for me
20140426 22:55:25< Coffee_irc> I can still tell the animations and get a good gameplay
20140426 22:55:28< Aishiko> sorry, I had a lock up and I don't know why
20140426 22:55:30< shadowm> So 50 units taking 5 seconds each to attack gives us... <maths> minutes.
20140426 22:55:49< shadowm> 250 seconds -> approximately 4 minutes (per turn).
20140426 22:56:18< shadowm> Hey I just had an idea for a challenge. Play NR on Nightmare difficulty, with the default 1.0x animation speed.
20140426 22:56:35< shadowm> And on Wesnoth 1.22, which will presumably finally have full animation sets for all mainline units.
20140426 22:56:40-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string+feature freeze active on 1.12 | 242 bugs, 345 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Alternate logs: http://wesnoth.debian.net | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20140426 22:56:46< Coffee_irc> Aishiko: you might want to note that image::locator could be used outright or extended for a cache system
20140426 22:56:58< Aishiko> shadowm, NR?
20140426 22:57:10< shadowm> Aishiko: Northern Rebirth, one of the mainline campaigns shipped with the game.
20140426 22:57:11< Aishiko> Coffee_irc, thats a good idea
20140426 22:57:17< shadowm> The most infamous one.
20140426 22:57:29< Aishiko> I've not played them all,
20140426 22:57:56< shadowm> It's won like a dozen prizes to the best parody campaign.
20140426 22:58:07< Coffee_irc> funny, I've played all the campaigns except NR
20140426 22:58:19< shadowm> And fifty prizes to the most frustrating campaign.
20140426 22:58:41< shadowm> The judges never even touched Nightmare difficulty.
20140426 22:59:58< Coffee_irc> ooh, it has 4 difficulty levels
20140426 23:04:52< Aishiko> I thought there were only 3 levels allowed?
20140426 23:06:14< Coffee_irc> Aishiko: well, you don't want too many difficulty modes because it is hard to test
20140426 23:06:23< Coffee_irc> but there can be any number of them
20140426 23:06:53< iceiceice> i tried to play NR once, the first scenario was fun
20140426 23:06:59< iceiceice> the second scenario was like,
20140426 23:07:06< iceiceice> endless wave of trolls coming down a corridor
20140426 23:07:21< iceiceice> and skeleton armies slaying eachother outside
20140426 23:07:43< iceiceice> i think i looked at a walkthrough, apparently i was supposed to abandon my base and forma  tight ball, working my way through the skeletons?
20140426 23:08:04< iceiceice> i tried it once or twice but i pretty rapidly lost interest
20140426 23:08:19< Coffee_irc> iceiceice: oh, is this the one with the foopads?
20140426 23:08:25< iceiceice> i think that's NR, right?
20140426 23:08:34< Coffee_irc> they got nerfed in 1.10
20140426 23:08:50< iceiceice> y i guess i knew that
20140426 23:08:52< Coffee_irc> so sad (*sniff*)
20140426 23:08:57< iceiceice> hehe
20140426 23:10:00< mattsc> I once managed to stick with NR until the third-to-last scenario.  Then I just didn’t want to do it any more.  :P
20140426 23:10:48-!- Necrosporus [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20140426 23:11:00< mattsc> As for animation speed, I usually play at 4x.  I even watch AI replays at that speed, to figure out what stupid mistakes Fred made this time …
20140426 23:11:02< Coffee_irc> lol, sounds like there should be a warning at the start: "this campaign will test your patience. You have been warned"
20140426 23:11:47< mattsc> Coffee_irc: there are players who like this sort of campaign.  I have no problems with that, I’m just not one of them.
20140426 23:12:18< shadowm> I played NR to the end on Wesnoth 1.2.x.
20140426 23:12:34< shadowm> Back when it had erm, "peculiar" prose.
20140426 23:12:47< iceiceice> i dont have anything against the campaign, i'm glad there is a person who can naturally think up puzzle campaigns like this
20140426 23:13:18< shadowm> In hindsight, I wouldn't have made it to the end if it had mainline-style prose at the time.
20140426 23:13:22< mattsc> iceiceice: I like puzzle cmapaigns, actually.  I don’t think NR is one of them.
20140426 23:13:25< iceiceice> but this thing about like, having to figure out exactly what ist he right amount of forces to defend a 2 hex corridor from a wave of trolls
20140426 23:13:39< shadowm> Every turn in the last scenario took between 30 and 45 minutes to play.
20140426 23:13:43< iceiceice> or what exactly is the way that the author intended me to fight, because no other technique is viable
20140426 23:14:22< mattsc> iceiceice: I see.  Are you talking about nightmare level?  Because on medium I don’t think it’s all that hard.  Just tedious.
20140426 23:14:27< Coffee_irc> iceiceice: you used to be able to trick the AI sometimes
20140426 23:14:38< Coffee_irc> like with units that are about to level used as blockers
20140426 23:14:51< iceiceice> y thats true
20140426 23:14:54< mattsc> shadowm: you have more patience than I do.
20140426 23:16:26< shadowm> Well, I consider NR to be unique for that reason. I don't hate it, I just don't think the niche it fills is one we need in mainline.
20140426 23:16:38-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20140426 23:17:02< shadowm> In a way the last few scenarios of my last Wesnoth campaign ever are a massive throwback to the NR gameplay style.
20140426 23:17:02< gfgtdf> can anyone take a look at my commit https://github.com/gfgtdf/wesnoth-old/commit/0a86c5ce3de047267b241f3577ce57a1617cf3b9 especialy to check the strings ? (it's just a 10 lines commit)
20140426 23:18:11< shadowm> I.e. "are you frustrated enough yet? come on, it's surely time to quit the game :D"
20140426 23:18:37-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@f048084119.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20140426 23:19:07< mattsc> shadowm: yeah, to some extent.  I enjoyed playing it once and really appreciated its … sophistication (is that the word I want?), but TBH I am not likely to play it again anytime soon.  :)
20140426 23:19:24< Coffee_irc> shadowm: fair enough, some people just like to get to the last boss of the game and leave it...
20140426 23:19:43< Coffee_irc> I don't know why, but I've met such people
20140426 23:22:09< Coffee_irc> shadowm: we could alwys start being like GNOME and dropping features with every release ;)
20140426 23:22:28< Coffee_irc> although I hear it doesn't work with animation tags for some reason
20140426 23:22:47< mattsc> shadowm: I really like the “ocassionally blowing up everything” theme running through it!
20140426 23:24:38< mattsc> Coffee_irc: uh oh, now we pissed him off  ;)
20140426 23:24:47-!- Necrosporus [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140426 23:26:39< shadowm> I wouldn't know, I don't use Gnome.
20140426 23:27:22< shadowm> Joke aside, it does make more sense to limit user options in a _game_ than in a desktop environment.
20140426 23:27:49< Coffee_irc> shadowm: well yeah, especially with the addon system
20140426 23:28:06< shadowm> The game isn't the user's lounge, so it doesn't need to be specifically tailored to their eclectic tastes.
20140426 23:28:54< Coffee_irc> shadowm: do we know our user 'computer demographic'?
20140426 23:29:12< Coffee_irc> I would suspect they are using desktops mostly, but I could be wrong
20140426 23:29:16< shadowm> But you simply can't remove a desktop environment's customization potential.
20140426 23:29:30< shadowm> It's like forcing people to live in 4x4 houses.
20140426 23:30:14< shadowm> "No, I don't care about your income, you do not have the right to own larger real estate."
20140426 23:30:44< shadowm> Coffee_irc: Wesnoth doesn't spy on players, so no.
20140426 23:30:44< Coffee_irc> unfortunately that's been the state of affairs in Linux-land desktop environments for a couple of years
20140426 23:31:24< shadowm> Vote me for president and I'll make sure to put an experienced team of programmers to work on developing tools to identify and monitor our users.
20140426 23:31:27< Coffee_irc> Windows 8 and Macintosh are also infected with the same bug
20140426 23:32:23< shadowm> For all the glaring deficiencies of KDE, customizability is still something they do very well IMO.
20140426 23:32:25-!- ancestral [~ancestral@12.23.74.29] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140426 23:32:38< shadowm> Which is why I've been using it for nearly 10 years, I guess.
20140426 23:33:07< shadowm> And cracking jokes comparing Wesnoth with KDE.
20140426 23:35:09< Coffee_irc> shadowm: looks like the punchline is missing, just like the features in KDE :)
20140426 23:35:12< shadowm> So yeah, I suspect over 80% of our players use desktop computers.
20140426 23:36:04< shadowm> But that's just a random guess I pulled out of thin air.
20140426 23:36:07< shadowm> Er, *desktop/laptop
20140426 23:36:34< shadowm> Specifically, larger form factors than netbooks.
20140426 23:37:11< Yaiyan> I used to play wesnoth on a netbook
20140426 23:37:18< Yaiyan> It was surprisingly smooth, especially compared to anything else
20140426 23:37:19< Coffee_irc> shadowm: yeah, I'd think so as well
20140426 23:38:22< Coffee_irc> well there you go
20140426 23:39:03< shadowm> That's quite predictable, seeing as how they have smaller resolutions and Wesnoth's only rendering bottleneck is the CPU.
20140426 23:39:31< shadowm> But how many netbook users run Linux and thus have the higher chance to learn about Wesnoth?
20140426 23:39:59-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@e176185062.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20140426 23:40:12< Coffee_irc> yes, I suppose that could be a factor
20140426 23:40:27< shadowm> Subnetbook form factors aren't too relevant at this time IMO (except possibly the Pandora), since the Android and iOS ports aren't done by the Battle for Wesnoth Project and seem to suffer from all kinds of engineering deficiencies.
20140426 23:40:47< Coffee_irc> wesnoth has been consistent in topping or near topping the free game charts on linux for some years
20140426 23:40:53< shadowm> As well as PR deficiencies.
20140426 23:41:48< shadowm> How many people around the world own Pandoras, though?
20140426 23:42:52< Coffee_irc> (to be honest I don't know what a Pandora is)
20140426 23:43:54< shadowm> http://openpandora.org/
20140426 23:44:18< shadowm> It's one of our tier-1 packaging platforms along with Windows and Apple OS X.
20140426 23:46:59< Coffee_irc> hmm http://repo.openpandora.org/?page=detail&app=wesnoth-1.11
20140426 23:47:47< Coffee_irc> http://repo.openpandora.org/?page=detail&app=wesnoth-1.10&p=2
20140426 23:47:56< Coffee_irc> they have some comments about it
20140426 23:48:10< Coffee_irc> looks like people are using it
--- Log closed Sun Apr 27 00:00:36 2014