--- Log opened Fri Apr 04 00:00:48 2014
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20140404 01:16:45< Patch> Ultimate frisbee
20140404 01:16:55< Patch> !!!
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20140404 21:00:49< Necrosporus> Is arcane anti-undead by nature or it's same force which makes them undead?
20140404 21:02:11< Necrosporus> I mean, could in possibility massive amounts of arcane "energy", emanating into environment by some powerful arcane-damage artifact induce spontaneous undead-raising or it must have opposite effect?
20140404 21:13:12< zookeeper> opposite
20140404 21:18:22< Necrosporus> zookeeper, then what might be effect of massive contamination of environment by powerful source of arcane energy?
20140404 21:20:38-!- Gambit [~derek@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20140404 21:22:56< Necrosporus> like what happen with fish and plants on lake shore if lake somehow was turned into reservoir of holy water
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20140404 21:26:13< Necrosporus> Would it be like radioactive pollution + anti-undead effect?
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20140404 21:32:05< noy> that all depends, but it would likely have little effect on the fish and plants
20140404 21:33:02< noy> I guess, what it depends on is the intention of arcane magic
20140404 21:33:34< Necrosporus> In wesnoth it destroys magical creatures and also damage non-magical one
20140404 21:33:56< noy> yes, but non-magical creatures tend to have high resistance to it
20140404 21:34:05< Necrosporus> 20%
20140404 21:34:11< noy> yes, which is fairly high
20140404 21:35:19< noy> in cases where arcane is used, the casters would need to find ways to make it damage 
20140404 21:35:56< Necrosporus> Maybe it's something like radioactivity of some kind?
20140404 21:36:01< noy> those creatures that are not sustained by magic
20140404 21:36:24< noy> I don't think so at all
20140404 21:36:47< noy> arcane is a very nebulous kind of magic. Its not as definite as other types
20140404 21:37:07< Necrosporus> It's even called this way
20140404 21:37:33< noy> well its really not what I intended to make it as
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20140404 21:37:51< noy> given its supposed to cover many different approaches to magic
20140404 21:38:31< noy> from holy paladins, to elvish naturalism, and the undead 
20140404 21:38:34< Necrosporus> By the way I didn't find discussion about converting holy into arcane 
20140404 21:38:57< noy> its in the mailing list… something like 2009 or 8
20140404 21:40:53< Necrosporus> Though if it damages magical creatures, it's probably either emanation of raw magic of sort, which disrupts their finely-tuned processes or opposite, sort of magic-sucker
20140404 21:41:37< noy> well I would argue it really depends on what the original intention
20140404 21:42:01< noy> if it is some holy spring, I'd think the creatures wouldn't be affected
20140404 21:42:17< noy> because they aren't being "attacked"
20140404 21:45:01< noy> if it was some raw arcane energy, then yeah, maybe everything does get disrupted
20140404 21:45:22< noy> or if it is for evil purposes, then maybe only "good" things are affected because they aren't on the same side
20140404 21:45:27< noy> does that make sense Necrosporus ?
20140404 21:47:39< Necrosporus> noy, I'm thinking on some scenario. The idea is to destroy some enemy someone need to combine all six damage types to create weapon with new one
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20140404 21:48:11< noy> Arcane is supposed to be nebulous
20140404 21:48:44< noy> its just doesn't have an easy to describe nature
20140404 21:48:49< noy> but its effects are clear
20140404 21:48:51< Necrosporus> I thought about three natural crystals which emanate magic 'energy' spontaneously
20140404 21:48:59< noy> sorry I can't be much more help than that
20140404 21:49:08< noy> that could be a source of arcane
20140404 21:49:15< Necrosporus> Fire one would cause everything around to burn, cold one to freeze and arcane one...?
20140404 21:49:18< noy> what its effects are is up to you
20140404 21:49:37< noy> cause things to fall apart
20140404 21:49:50< noy> if you want
20140404 21:49:58< Necrosporus> maybe just make some lake holy?
20140404 21:50:13< noy> but the nature of that type of arcane would be different from lets say a holy laike
20140404 21:50:36< noy> because the arcane there might be only used to affect "evil" things
20140404 21:50:50< Necrosporus> yeah, but it might be cause of holy lake if this crystal happen to lie near a spring filling the lake
20140404 21:51:16< noy> well, holy would probably be created by someone with a direct purpose, like killing undead
20140404 21:51:18< noy> so don't do that
20140404 21:51:34< noy> or maybe someone used the crystals' powers to translate it to holy
20140404 21:51:40< noy> like with a nearby shrine
20140404 21:51:50< noy> That would work
20140404 21:52:07< Necrosporus> So arcane is now not same as holy, even if it was previously
20140404 21:52:19< noy> again, read what I said above
20140404 21:52:39< noy> arcane is a catchall for a lot of different magic approaches, holy being one of them
20140404 21:52:46< Necrosporus> I see 'make things fall apart, especially magical things'
20140404 21:52:58< noy> … look, I don't like repeating myself. 
20140404 21:53:04< Necrosporus> Yeah
20140404 21:53:16< noy> I don't know how much clearer I can be about this
20140404 21:53:40< Necrosporus> I see, your answer is "I don't know, it's up to you to decide"
20140404 21:54:28< noy> … WITHIN a pretty specific contextual framework
20140404 21:56:02< noy> reread what I said above. 
20140404 21:56:08< noy> I'll be back in about an hour
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20140404 21:56:54< Necrosporus> I did
20140404 21:57:32< Necrosporus> I guess, the simplest is to make it illuminate and kill undead
20140404 21:57:59< Necrosporus> or maybe cause arcane damage to everything which gets near
20140404 22:01:08< Necrosporus> like cause 10 arcane damage per turn on adjacent hexes, 8 on near-adjacent and so on plus maybe making lawful units cause +50% damage and chaotic -50%
20140404 22:01:54< celticminstrel> I seem to recall elves are particularly vulnerable to arcane.
20140404 22:02:15< celticminstrel> So it's not really the same as holy.
20140404 22:02:47< celticminstrel> But if the idea is to have something that affects nearby units, it's a damage type. So you could just damage the units.
20140404 22:03:05< Necrosporus> -10%
20140404 22:03:12< celticminstrel> ?
20140404 22:03:21< Necrosporus> elvish archer
20140404 22:03:25< celticminstrel> Oh.
20140404 22:03:38< celticminstrel> I think the casters are more vulnerable.
20140404 22:03:51< celticminstrel> Like the sylph or the sorceress? Something like that.
20140404 22:04:05< Necrosporus> same for trolls
20140404 22:04:15< celticminstrel> Trolls are vulnerable to arcane?
20140404 22:04:39< Necrosporus> sylph is 20% resistant
20140404 22:04:41< Necrosporus> yes
20140404 22:04:59< Necrosporus> goblins are 0%
20140404 22:05:23< Necrosporus> humans 20%
20140404 22:05:49< Necrosporus> galleons and other ships 60%
20140404 22:05:59< celticminstrel> If you want something beyond "does arcane damage", do a survey of what is resistant to arcane, what is vulnerable to arcane, and what uses arcane. I dunno if that could give you any ideas though.
20140404 22:06:12< celticminstrel> That makes sense, ships aren't alive.
20140404 22:06:57< Necrosporus> Undead are -50%
20140404 22:07:27< Necrosporus> Woses -30%
20140404 22:07:47< Necrosporus> So it damages animated things gravely
20140404 22:08:02< celticminstrel> I wouldn't call woses "animated things".
20140404 22:09:59< Necrosporus> Animated trees?
20140404 22:10:10< celticminstrel> I don't think that's what they are.
20140404 22:10:20< Necrosporus> like undead but with living plants instead of dead flesh?
20140404 22:10:27< celticminstrel> I don't recall if there's any Wesnoth lore on that topic though.
20140404 22:10:41< celticminstrel> But no, I'm pretty sure they're not like undead in that way.
20140404 22:11:07< celticminstrel> They're probably either "awakened trees" or "elves who got very close to nature".
20140404 22:11:36< celticminstrel> Or they could just be a species that looks like a tree.
20140404 22:11:42< celticminstrel> Like the Ents of Tolkien.
20140404 22:12:02< zookeeper> yes, that.
20140404 22:12:02< Necrosporus> Though drakes are -30% too
20140404 22:12:12< celticminstrel> zookeeper: The last one?
20140404 22:12:16< zookeeper> yes
20140404 22:12:59< Necrosporus> Anyway, it seems quite similar to radioactivity even if it is not
20140404 22:13:02< zookeeper> arcane damages magical creatures. the more magical, the more it hurts. that's the pattern.
20140404 22:13:18< zookeeper> or more dependant on magic, whatever.
20140404 22:13:22< celticminstrel> But arcane is itself magical.
20140404 22:13:25< celticminstrel> Isn't it?
20140404 22:13:43< Necrosporus> could it be radioactivity?
20140404 22:14:04< celticminstrel> That seems kind of unlikely.
20140404 22:14:07< Necrosporus> though wesnoth's people don't know this word obviously
20140404 22:15:41< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, why?
20140404 22:16:13< celticminstrel> I don't think it seems to be much like radioactivity.
20140404 22:16:39< Necrosporus> it doesn't damage non-living thinks, like ships... quite like radioactivity, which disrupts thin processes but mostly leaves macroscopic structure intact
20140404 22:17:03< celticminstrel> It does damage non-living things.
20140404 22:17:05< Necrosporus> And thinner the processes, worst the effect
20140404 22:17:07< celticminstrel> Undead are not living things.
20140404 22:17:26< celticminstrel> And radioactivity does damage non-living things.
20140404 22:17:32< Necrosporus> yes
20140404 22:17:37< Necrosporus> add 'almost'
20140404 22:17:53< celticminstrel> Huh?
20140404 22:17:54< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, it damages electronic equipment
20140404 22:18:22< Necrosporus> and thinner tech-process, worse is damage
20140404 22:18:43< celticminstrel> I'm really not sure what you mean by "thin" here.
20140404 22:18:50< Necrosporus> small
20140404 22:18:56< Necrosporus> 10nm vs 100 nm
20140404 22:19:24< celticminstrel> Maybe it's the word "process" that's confusing me.
20140404 22:19:39< celticminstrel> You're saying radioactivity damages thin things more than thick things?
20140404 22:20:23< Necrosporus> It damaged things which depends on microscopic processes more
20140404 22:20:58< Necrosporus> like if you use a battery and thick wires, it takes almost no damage
20140404 22:22:34< Necrosporus> but electronic equipment made by modern consumer standard would not sustain radiation, it's why spacecrafts tend to use specially-crafted chips
20140404 22:23:38< celticminstrel> I'm not sure if that's really a correct way of describing it.
20140404 22:25:46< Necrosporus> High-energy particles sort of disrupt atomic structures inside of exposed material
20140404 22:26:45< Necrosporus> in a modern processor single particle is probably enough to destroy whole microscopic transistor
20140404 22:27:20< Necrosporus> While in less-modern chip you need several particles to hit same transistor to destroy it
20140404 22:27:58< Necrosporus> as transistor is bigger and minor displacement of atoms won't affect it that much
20140404 22:28:49< Necrosporus> It's probably the same for magic
20140404 22:29:15< celticminstrel> I don't really see the similarity.
20140404 22:29:54< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, undead are mostly dumb bones, which cannot do anything by themselves
20140404 22:31:26< Necrosporus> Especially skeletons
20140404 22:31:35< Necrosporus> which has only bones and no flesh or anything
20140404 22:32:08< Necrosporus> So they necessarily need sort of magical CPU to control them
20140404 22:32:45< Necrosporus> While zombies has flesh and so they less dependent on magic, having -40%  resistance
20140404 22:33:39< Necrosporus> humans don't need magic at all, but they are still vulnerable to radiation to some degree as it disrupts processes inside their cells
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20140404 22:36:45< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, if magic consists of some elementary particles as well as matter, I guess, arcane attack is powerful stream of such particles
20140404 22:37:06< Necrosporus> maybe it makes its effect quite similar to one of radioactivity in real world?
20140404 22:38:13< shadowm> If you are trying to rationalize magic then you are missing the point.
20140404 22:38:32< celticminstrel> I never think of magic as being composed of elementary particles.
20140404 22:42:08< zookeeper> i hope everyone's enjoying the, uh, discussion. if not then you're doing it wrong.
20140404 22:42:38< Necrosporus> shadowm, magic in our real world is not same thing as magic in world of wesnoth or such. There are magic schools, so they probably know something about magic, it's not just magic, it's something measurable for them
20140404 22:42:38< zookeeper> this is one of those cases where there's only one winning move.
20140404 22:43:37< Necrosporus> Maybe what's called magic in fantasy world is just additional physics of that worlds?
20140404 22:43:45< Necrosporus> * worlds
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20140404 22:48:22< Necrosporus> shadowm, by the way, are you going to continue your wesnoth history series? The last post was about 0.3
20140404 22:49:04< shadowm> What?
20140404 22:49:14-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20140404 22:49:29< shadowm> Are you a time traveler from the past or you have been looking in the wrong place all along?
20140404 22:49:43-!- noy [~Noy@S01067cb21b205894.vs.shawcable.net] has joined #wesnoth
20140404 22:49:47< Necrosporus> http://shadowm.rewound.net/blog/index.php?archives/120-Wesnoth-Evolution-0.3.html
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20140404 22:49:57< shadowm> Oh. You mean that.
20140404 22:50:10< shadowm> I thought you meant one of my campaigns, my bad.
20140404 22:51:17< shadowm> I can't devote time or resources to continuing my Wesnoth history article series at this time, and this has been the situation for many years already, so... the chances are near nil.
20140404 22:51:22< Necrosporus> Wesnoth Evolution. Quite interesting to read, though it would be better if there were more screenshots
20140404 22:56:50< Necrosporus> noy, I have a hypothesis, arcane could be some sort of radioactivity, I also reread what you wrote and did a little research in wesnoth help.
20140404 22:57:16< Necrosporus> If it was just magic, why would it damage mundane species at all
20140404 22:57:21< noy> that's up to you to be honest. 
20140404 22:57:34< noy> but it wouldn't really go with canon
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20140404 22:58:06< noy> because even mundane species have some magical aspects to them presumably
20140404 22:58:46< noy> moreover, it can be argued that arcane magic can be used to affect mundane species, just not well
20140404 23:01:03< Necrosporus> And what's difference if I say, it's radioactivity consisting of specific magic particles which don't exist in our world by do in fantasy ones, and magician use them?
20140404 23:02:28< Necrosporus> So arcane rays disrupt magical creatures gravely, but also damage mundane ones like usual radiation would
20140404 23:04:06< Necrosporus> By the way, what if our physicist could go into Wesnoth and perform scientific experiments with help of mages?
20140404 23:04:23< celticminstrel> No need for that.
20140404 23:04:40< celticminstrel> The mages could perform scientific experiments on their own, if they were so inclined.
20140404 23:04:59< Necrosporus> And they do, don't they?
20140404 23:05:30< Necrosporus> Like Crelanu who even wrote a scientific book 
20140404 23:06:01< celticminstrel> That doesn't by any means imply that magic is like any known physical phenomena in the real world.
20140404 23:08:25< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, it does imply it's physical phenomena of Wesnoth' Universe, as magic has reproducible properties
20140404 23:08:53< Necrosporus> Like mage could cast same spell and get same effect each time
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20140404 23:10:51< Necrosporus> So it's not magic in same meaning as in our world, it's not exception from nature's laws, it's opposite, it's dependent of some nature's laws
20140404 23:12:24< Necrosporus> if there were no laws controlling magic it would not be possible to cast spells with predictable results
20140404 23:12:51< celticminstrel> Why not?
20140404 23:14:23< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, because it's either completely random and thus unpredictable or there's some way to predict result of your spell, even if it's not guaranteed to be completely same each time
20140404 23:15:02< celticminstrel> You're implying you can't predict the outcome of a random event.
20140404 23:15:36< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, though you still know it's distribution, if it's not completely random
20140404 23:16:05< celticminstrel> A distribution helps, sure.
20140404 23:17:09< Necrosporus> If there were no laws of magic, how could you cast a fireball spell and expect it to create fireball and noting else?
20140404 23:19:53< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, also I expect physics of fantasy world to not differ from ours one very much.
20140404 23:20:19< Necrosporus> Because it's otherwise quite alike to our
20140404 23:21:12< Necrosporus> so whatever magic consists of, it is probably something similar to know four forces
20140404 23:21:52< celticminstrel> I doubt that.
20140404 23:22:29< celticminstrel> It's fantasy; there's no reason to assume it's similar to the real world.
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20140404 23:23:14< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, the reason is it's similar to RW, as there are stars, sun, air, stone, water and so on
20140404 23:23:31< Necrosporus> Isn't wesnoth water still H2O?
20140404 23:23:48< celticminstrel> That doesn't imply it's similar to the real world. It could be a flat world plate.
20140404 23:23:54< celticminstrel> Rather than a planet.
20140404 23:24:16< celticminstrel> Though, I suspect that's probably not the case.
20140404 23:24:22< celticminstrel> But it could be.
20140404 23:27:23< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, I could imagine it even in real world if there were some source of homotropic gravitational field plus some way to keep edges stable
20140404 23:27:54< Necrosporus> Though it world were flat why there would be any volcanoes?
20140404 23:28:30< celticminstrel> I think you're wrong on that one.
20140404 23:29:15< celticminstrel> You can imagine it, sure, but you're using fantasy to do so.
20140404 23:29:16< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, anyway, do you think fantasy's world air is still nitrogen+oxygen, water is still H2O and so on?
20140404 23:29:37< celticminstrel> I think it doesn't matter whether it is.
20140404 23:30:10< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, I think it probably is, or otherwise it's too similar to RW for no apparent reasons
20140404 23:30:13< celticminstrel> But, unless it being different were a plot point, I'd assume the atmosphere is the same.
20140404 23:32:50< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, then why radiation could not be there as well?
20140404 23:33:07< celticminstrel> I expect it could be, but I wouldn't expect it to be related to magic.
20140404 23:33:31< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, arcane is not necessary magic, is it?
20140404 23:34:12< Necrosporus> radiation is not cold, not fire, not pierce, not impact, not blade. What is it then?
20140404 23:35:04< celticminstrel> I'd compare it to things like poison.
20140404 23:35:19< celticminstrel> I wouldn't class it as a basic damage type.
20140404 23:35:36< celticminstrel> If I wanted radioactivity in a scenario, it'd probably behave somewhat like poison.
20140404 23:35:54< celticminstrel> I don't recall exactly how poison works in Wesnoth, though.
20140404 23:36:51< Necrosporus> poison is -8 hp per turn till unit gets 1 hp or cured, units don't die from poison
20140404 23:38:36< celticminstrel> I'm pretty sure d20 Modern models radiation as either a poison or a disease.
20140404 23:39:11< celticminstrel> And it makes sense to me, as the effects of radiation (at least on living things) are not usually immediately felt.
20140404 23:41:29< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, one Russian scientist who got his head into ray from particle accelerator would not agree with you :)
20140404 23:42:00< Necrosporus> I mean, if it's weak, it's could be like poison
20140404 23:42:04< celticminstrel> That's not a typical situation of radiation exposure, though.
20140404 23:42:51< celticminstrel> And if it's strong, it could be like poison in fast-forward.
20140404 23:43:11< Necrosporus> Isn't white mage's lightbeam something like ray from accelerator?
20140404 23:43:18< celticminstrel> I doubt it.
20140404 23:44:05< Necrosporus> Do you think undead would be vulnerable to radiation?
20140404 23:44:17< celticminstrel> I have no idea; I wouldn't expect them to be.
20140404 23:44:28< noy> celticminstrel: basically, I'd agree with most of what you've said
20140404 23:44:41< noy> Necrosporus: honestly, do what you want
20140404 23:45:13< noy>  you can make up any sort of explanation you want, and write a campaign or whatever around it
20140404 23:45:18< Necrosporus> noy, anyway, thanks for hints
20140404 23:45:32< noy> just know it would never be accepted into mainline
20140404 23:45:53< noy> and if you're happy with that, then everything will be okay
20140404 23:50:03< Necrosporus> I don't believe my addons would be accepted in mainline either way
20140404 23:50:52< Necrosporus> There are maybe thousand campaingns and only dead water was accepted
--- Log closed Sat Apr 05 00:00:03 2014