--- Log opened Sat Apr 05 00:00:03 2014
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20140405 00:11:15< Necrosporus> noy, I couldn't find holy -> arcane discussion in https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/ for 2009 and 2008
20140405 00:11:49< Necrosporus> Neither I found it on forum
20140405 00:13:04< Necrosporus> I thought if I could review the discussion, I could understand what 'arcane' means better... though I guess it's still were quite arcane even for ones proposing changes
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20140405 00:18:25< Necrosporus> Anyway do you have any ideas of how to obtain super-weapon to destroy some ultimate entity like Yechnagoth?
20140405 00:19:01< Necrosporus> I do not want to copy same way (destroy all minions first) though
20140405 00:20:12< shadowm> Dead Water is not the first UMC to be accepted in mainline.
20140405 00:22:36< shadowm> All these started their lives outside of mainline: DW, DM, LoW, THoT, AOI, Liberty, DiD, SotBE (half of it anyway, it's complicated), NR, SoF, AToTB, TSG, UtBS.
20140405 00:24:23< shadowm> Arcane appears to have been born in the forums in this thread from 2006: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13851
20140405 00:25:19< shadowm> The ML discussion began here: https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2006-11/msg00018.html
20140405 00:26:48< _8680_> Is that forums URL being redirected to HTTPS (which then yields a Not Found response) for anyone else?
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20140405 00:27:16< shadowm> _8680_: Probably only people using HTTPS Anywhere or whatever.
20140405 00:29:00< _8680_> It’s HTTPS Everywhere, and of course I turned all that stuff off before asking.
20140405 00:29:22< shadowm> If it didn't work for me, I'd not have pasted it in the first place.
20140405 00:30:03< shadowm> And as far as the httpd cares, neither you nor I are special.
20140405 00:31:00< celticminstrel> What's SotBE?
20140405 00:31:17< celticminstrel> Also, isn't that most of the list somehow?
20140405 00:31:20< shadowm> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Glossary#Names_of_Mainline_Campaigns_and_Scenarios
20140405 00:31:31< shadowm> Yes, it's 'most'.
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20140405 08:46:00< Necrosporus> I see, there were a lot of proposal beside "arcane", including "mystical". And in some translation, arcane is translated as "mystic"
20140405 08:50:26< Necrosporus> > What about Arcane then?. The connonation of misterious in the word gives foot to the fact that, although wielded, the workings on how can damage magical, ghostly, and natural beings remains shady. 
20140405 08:50:32< Necrosporus> first proposal
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20140405 09:24:15< Necrosporus> Jihad damage
20140405 09:24:30< Necrosporus> it was proposed too
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20140405 12:17:11< Necrosporus> shadowm, I read entire topic and ml thread and don't see where consensus to call it arcane was reached, though it is somewhere between 1.3.2 and 1.3.8
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20140405 12:20:53< Necrosporus> Though there's other thread https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2007-02/msg00001.html
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20140405 12:29:27< Necrosporus> > Orcs: -10 % (Birthed from at least partially magical circumstances - Orcs don't breed) // Quite sudden... Who said orcs don't breed?
20140405 12:29:47< Necrosporus> Wesnoth page on goblins says opposite
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20140405 16:23:23< shadowm> Necrosporus: Then read the forum thread?
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20140405 16:29:54< Necrosporus> shadowm, I read the thread, there arcane was proposed, but there were no final post like "OK, let's take arcane"
20140405 16:30:29< shadowm> That kind of thing tends to happen on IRC, not the forums or ML.
20140405 16:33:09< Necrosporus> Though what I see, it's just damage type with specific effects on different species. So I don't see why not to think it's magic analog to radiation or anything else I might think of, if I want to
20140405 16:33:22< Necrosporus> It was even proposed to be called radiant
20140405 16:34:12< shadowm> As someone else told you, you can do whatever you want in your add-on.
20140405 16:35:13< shadowm> If you feel magic works by sending commands to a massive cosmic computer operated by pink goblins, knock yourself out.
20140405 16:35:41< shadowm> If you think Irdya is flat, go ahead and write a campaign about sailors who fall off the edge.
20140405 16:35:49< shadowm> Et cetera.
20140405 16:36:19< Necrosporus> Though current name has a problem mentioned in the thread
20140405 16:36:54< Necrosporus> Arcane is translated as 'мистический' (translates back as mystic) and magical translated as 'магический'
20140405 16:37:13< Necrosporus> in Russian this words are quite similar and easy to mix them up
20140405 16:37:25< shadowm> We primarily write and develop for the English audience. Translators need to figure out their stuff by themselves.
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20140405 16:37:50< shadowm> The most we can do is to give them hints so they can be on the same page as us.
20140405 16:38:09< Necrosporus> shadowm, even for english, isn't arcane and mystic synonymous?
20140405 16:38:45< shadowm> But 'mystic' isn't the word used unless you attempt a recursive translation like you just did.
20140405 16:39:21< Necrosporus> So you at least eliminated problem of similar first and last letters
20140405 16:39:23< shadowm> So what if they are synonymous? They aren't used in a sense that would imply they are opposites.
20140405 16:40:22< Necrosporus> The problem is that it's not clear what's difference between magical attack and arcane attack unless you know what it is in Wesnoth apriori
20140405 16:40:55< Necrosporus> Though probably it's not as bad as problems with other possible words
20140405 16:41:01< celticminstrel> I don't think "arcane" and "mystic" are synonymous.
20140405 16:41:42< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, I'm not native Englsh speaker and my dictionary defines it same way 'something hidden, secret, mystical'
20140405 16:42:23< shadowm> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/arcane  http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mystic
20140405 16:42:57< celticminstrel> "arcane" refers to knowledge known only to a few, possibly ancient and mysterious knowledge, maybe something difficult to understand. "mystical" seems quite different, though I'm not sure the best way to describe it.
20140405 16:43:34< celticminstrel> Ah, I see "mystic" on Wiktionary mentions "arcane' as a secondary meaning.
20140405 16:47:27< celticminstrel> In addition to the translation you posted that apparently Wesnoth uses, Google gives "тайный" and "скрытый" as possible Russian translations of "arcane". The first seems a poor choice, based on Wiktionary's translation; I dunno if the second is more or less appropriate than the translation used.
20140405 16:48:23< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, тайный is secret, скрытный из hidden or tending to hide
20140405 16:48:49< Necrosporus> mostly second
20140405 16:49:12< celticminstrel> There's probably just no exact translation.
20140405 16:49:16< Necrosporus> скрытный человек - human who likes to hide information about himself
20140405 16:50:27< celticminstrel> Wiktionary also lists "таинственный" as a possible translation of "arcane".
20140405 16:51:42< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, that's mysterious, enigmatic or something like that
20140405 16:51:54< celticminstrel> So Wiktionary said.
20140405 16:52:06< loonycyborg> I don't think there's a good translation for 'arcane' as used in computer games.
20140405 16:52:18< loonycyborg> Since they give a new meaning to the term
20140405 16:52:28< celticminstrel> Perhaps.
20140405 16:53:44< loonycyborg> 'arcane' in games mostly describes magic based on knowledge, as opposed to 'divine', magic coming from deities.
20140405 16:53:55< loonycyborg> At least games that are influenced by d&d
20140405 16:54:33< celticminstrel> Indeed.
20140405 16:54:57< celticminstrel> But, that's not a whole lot different from the normal meaning.
20140405 16:55:08< celticminstrel> At least, it has definite similarities.
20140405 16:55:39< Necrosporus> there's a related word 'чернокнижник' literally (black book)er
20140405 16:56:10< celticminstrel> Wiktionary translates it as necromancer or warlock.
20140405 16:56:13< Necrosporus> I guess it's even used to translate dark sorcerer into russian
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20140405 16:56:30< loonycyborg> Yeah, but you can't come up with a sane descriptor from that :P
20140405 16:56:31< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, there's 'некромант' for necromancer
20140405 16:56:48 * celticminstrel shrugs.
20140405 16:57:12< Necrosporus> So I think this translation is quite adequate as it is
20140405 16:57:30< Necrosporus> Dark Sorcerer -> чернокнижкник; Necromancer -> некромант
20140405 16:57:37< celticminstrel> Probably adequate, yeah.
20140405 16:58:02< Necrosporus> Though there's problem with Ghost -> Привидение and Wraith -> Призрак
20140405 16:58:31< Necrosporus> It's synonyms in Russian, meaning almost completely same, so it's hard to remember
20140405 16:58:45< Necrosporus> also it's starting with same letter
20140405 16:58:54< celticminstrel> Heh.
20140405 16:59:11< celticminstrel> Ghost and wraith could sometimes be synonymous in English too, I think.
20140405 16:59:34< Necrosporus> But at least it spells very differently
20140405 16:59:37< celticminstrel> True.
20140405 17:03:28< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, could you say what's stronger, ghost or wraith not knowing the game at all, but knowing English?
20140405 17:03:58< celticminstrel> Hm, not sure.
20140405 17:04:48< Necrosporus> for me, second one sounds like wrath, not sure if they are somehow related though
20140405 17:05:06< celticminstrel> Good question, let me check that.
20140405 17:05:23< Necrosporus> And wrath is certainly worse than just a patch of fog or something associated with ghost
20140405 17:06:21< celticminstrel> The origin of wraith isn't known, but none of the theories involve a link with wrath.
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20140405 17:08:02< Necrosporus> noy, if you didn't know the game would decide ghost is stronger than wraith or opposite?
20140405 17:08:17< noy> ?
20140405 17:08:18< celticminstrel> Wrath is definitely from Old English for "anger", while wraith might be from a number of sources such as Celtic, or maybe from Old Norse meaning "guardian"
20140405 17:08:41< celticminstrel> Thinking about it, I think "ghost" is a more general term than "wraith".
20140405 17:08:56< Necrosporus> noy, we a discussing the problem related with choice of 'arcane' from all other alternatives
20140405 17:09:15< noy> …its now a "problem"?
20140405 17:10:12< Necrosporus> in Russian 'arcane' translated as 'мистический' while magical spells 'магический', it's easy to mix up
20140405 17:10:28< loonycyborg> Some problem exists in english
20140405 17:10:44< Necrosporus> There's related problem with Ghost -> Привидение and Wraith -> Призрак
20140405 17:10:44< noy> so its a translation problem. 
20140405 17:10:57< loonycyborg> It's a lore problem :P
20140405 17:11:37< Necrosporus> noy, there is no better translation for arcane than 'мистический' which is how 'mystical' is spelled in Russian
20140405 17:11:44< noy> Its not a lore problem
20140405 17:12:04< noy> and frankly, we're not changing it after having it for 6+ years
20140405 17:12:05< celticminstrel> It's not a lore problem.
20140405 17:12:10< loonycyborg> Games tend to give specific meanings to words that are synonimous outside of it
20140405 17:12:17< celticminstrel> Wait, what, noy?
20140405 17:12:21< loonycyborg> Translations have no other choice but to do the same
20140405 17:12:27< noy> it used to be holy
20140405 17:12:36< noy> like years and years ago
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20140405 17:12:53< noy> we then went through a really difficult discussion on the ML
20140405 17:13:09< Necrosporus> By the way, I think 'radiant' would be better, but I'm not proposing to change it
20140405 17:13:24< noy> No
20140405 17:13:27< noy> UGHGHDFHSDAHF
20140405 17:13:30< noy> this is frustrating
20140405 17:13:49< loonycyborg> I think it's fine as it is
20140405 17:14:12< loonycyborg> Unless you want to rethink underlying ruleset
20140405 17:14:17< Necrosporus> Or maybe it would be even better if called radioactive?
20140405 17:14:53< Necrosporus> at least radiation is thing which could damage, like cold, extreme hit, piercing or so
20140405 17:15:01< Necrosporus> * heat
20140405 17:15:04< loonycyborg> hmm
20140405 17:15:14< loonycyborg> I think for russion would be better
20140405 17:15:30< loonycyborg> 'волшебный' и 'мистический'
20140405 17:15:44< loonycyborg> At least they don't start from same letter
20140405 17:15:46< Sonderblade> how come wesnoth keeps hogging the cpu even when its not doing anything? 
20140405 17:16:02< Sonderblade> is it a known bug?
20140405 17:16:22< Necrosporus> it's still playing music
20140405 17:16:58< Sonderblade> i've music turned off
20140405 17:18:07< Necrosporus> Sonderblade, 20% cpu for me
20140405 17:18:16< Necrosporus> Is it worse for you?
20140405 17:18:24< Necrosporus> It's playing animation
20140405 17:19:55< Sonderblade> even in the online lobby it takes a lot of cpu
20140405 17:20:56< Sonderblade> + even a few animations shouldn't put any strain at all on a modern computer, but wesnoth does
20140405 17:30:10< Necrosporus> noy, what do you think, was 'radiation' even proposed or not?
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20140405 17:31:16< Necrosporus> It doesn't fit with fantasy setting but otherwise it's clearly damage type
20140405 17:31:55< Necrosporus> unlike most of other variants which doesn't sound like a damage type by themselves (without explanation)
20140405 17:35:41< celticminstrel> Isn't Wesnoth SDL-based?
20140405 17:36:15< celticminstrel> Is it even using the graphics card?
20140405 17:36:43< Necrosporus> I think it's switched to opengl now
20140405 17:45:21< zookeeper> Sonderblade, i'm not sure why it'd hog cpu in the lobby. in-game it can be due to unit standing animations and such though.
20140405 17:46:36< zookeeper> Sonderblade, and that happens basically because hardware acceleration isn't used
20140405 17:51:10< zookeeper> wesnoth has always been somewhat sluggish, but oh well, what can you do.
20140405 18:02:32< celticminstrel> I think you just answered that question in the previous line. :P
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20140405 18:04:22< Sonderblade> zookeeper: you can file a bug report :)
20140405 18:07:51< celticminstrel> I was going to say you can use hardware acceleration,
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20140405 18:22:26< Sonderblade> celticminstrel: is there a switch in wesnoth for that?
20140405 18:22:44< celticminstrel> Uh, I doubt it?
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20140405 18:25:03< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, what do you think about calling arcane damage type 'radioactive'?  It's not a serious suggestion I just wonder would people find it OK if it was actually used instead of 'arcane' 
20140405 18:25:29< celticminstrel> I don't think it's at all suitable.
20140405 18:28:34< Necrosporus> By the way, if lightning is fire damage, does it mean my units which zap enemy with electricity should use fire damage?  
20140405 18:28:49< celticminstrel> Sure?
20140405 18:29:18< Necrosporus> They do currently, but I think electricity is not same as fire
20140405 18:29:23< celticminstrel> It's not.
20140405 18:29:40< celticminstrel> It's a simplification for the sake of the game.
20140405 18:30:02< Necrosporus> maybe it's correct for lightnings, as their main damage factor might be heat of high temperature plasma, but if it's not so high temperature for my units... 
20140405 18:30:26< celticminstrel> Well, you could make a custom effect of some kind, like one of the Steelhive units has.
20140405 18:30:48< celticminstrel> Maybe more than one, I don't quite remember.
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20140405 18:44:26< Necrosporus> http://units.wesnoth.org/1.10/Steelhive_Era/en_US/Steelhive_Recon.html Sound quite overpowered compared to  Nightgaunt
20140405 18:45:58< celticminstrel> Maybe.
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--- Log closed Sun Apr 06 00:00:30 2014