--- Log opened Sun Apr 13 00:00:07 2014
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20140413 01:26:29< battlestar> how do i get it to stop showing ip addresses or something of everyone joining and quitting?
20140413 01:33:41< c74d> battlestar: What IRC client are you using?
20140413 01:33:54< battlestar> http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=wesnoth-dev
20140413 01:34:57< c74d> I doubt the Web-chat is at all configurable, at least from the end-user side.
20140413 01:35:25< battlestar> okay
20140413 01:35:49< c74d> With my client (WeeChat), I can have it filter out all join/part/quit messages except for those of people who spoke recently.
20140413 01:35:59< c74d> (For a configurable value of “recently”.)
20140413 01:36:17< c74d> Most clients should be able to outright ignore all such messages.
20140413 01:37:45< c74d> So, you should use a different IRC client.
20140413 01:40:14< battlestar> I guess so, but then I don't use it much so maybe I'll just live with it being so lazy and all
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20140413 02:32:49< battlestar> hmmm anyone could help with some syntax issues?
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20140413 14:52:19< mggm> i've run a pointless skirmish - a game on Crusader's field map, Age of Heroes, ai vs ai vs ai vs ai vs ai vs ai, each ai controlling different faction, with 30% exp modifier, 800 starting gold each and +18 income
20140413 14:52:29< mggm> and i found out a weird thing
20140413 14:52:52< mggm> The ai's are very selective in choosing recruitment
20140413 14:53:38< mggm> THe elvish AI has /never/ recruited any sorcerers nor druid, only recruiting human magi up to now
20140413 14:54:05< mggm> Up to now, the humans have /never/ recruited any Ogre
20140413 14:54:34< mggm> Orc have /never/ recurited any GOblin Pillager, only recruiting GOblin Knights
20140413 14:55:04< mggm> Also none of the AIs has ever recruited any water unit
20140413 14:55:08< mggm> why so?
20140413 14:56:23< mggm> Also, the humans have never recruited any SPearman or Lancer or Knight or Javelineer, preferring Cavalrymen and Shock Troopers
20140413 14:57:57< mggm> the unded do not recruit bats nor ghouls
20140413 14:59:01< mggm> dwarves do not recruit outlaws nor rogues nor guards
20140413 15:00:45< mggm> drakes do not recruit fighters nor saurian fighters
20140413 15:01:37< mggm> why so?
20140413 15:02:47< zookeeper> well, they just pick the units they think give the most bang for the buck in the current situation. i'm sure they're not particularly smart about it, but that's just how they work.
20140413 15:05:09< zookeeper> i don't know what the selection algorithm is exactly
20140413 15:06:33< zookeeper> they use some kind of criteria to rank the recruitable units and then pick the one they deem the best choice at the moment... which i'm sure often results in odd results
20140413 15:08:57< mggm> but usually, the AI doesn't seem to ignore half of it's recruit list
20140413 15:09:39< mggm> i understand that i run the benchmark with unusual gold and xp settings, but...
20140413 15:12:21< mggm> i suppose it must be the xp modifier causing ai to ignore lots of recruitable units
20140413 15:13:08< mggm> if i'm not mistaken, in campaigns the ai usually recruits a wide range of units
20140413 15:13:10< zookeeper> yeah, i dunno what all settings affect it, such as if it considers amount of XP to levelup at all
20140413 15:13:40< mggm> and in campaigns the ai often gets lots of gold
20140413 15:13:50< zookeeper> one thing is of course that in campaigns the scenarios almost always give the AI some parameters tailored for that scenario, whereas in (most?) MP scenarios it just uses the default AI as-is
20140413 15:15:06< tdk27> yes
20140413 15:15:17< tdk27> the way you make interesting AI recruitment in campaigns is hinting
20140413 15:16:50< mggm> so possibly if for some reason in a campaign scenario the AI ignores some recruitable units, then the campaign creator just forces the ai to recruit every unit it is able to recruit?
20140413 15:16:59< mggm> Does this happen often?
20140413 15:18:13< zookeeper> yes, i think it's a common thing
20140413 15:19:10< mattsc> mggm: I really can’t stick around right now, but what version of Wesnoth are you talking about.  Recruitment was changed in 1.11.7.
20140413 15:19:10< zookeeper> it'd arguably be a good idea for the default AI to recruit in a more diverse way
20140413 15:19:19< zookeeper> but... yes, that
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20140413 15:19:32< tdk27> also it's actually quite a hard problem to solve
20140413 15:19:42< tdk27> (much like most AI related problems)
20140413 15:19:44< mattsc> It’s also much more easily configurable now:  http://wiki.wesnoth.org/AI_Recruitment
20140413 15:20:54< mggm> ah, ok
20140413 15:21:04< mggm> well, i'm on 1.10.6
20140413 15:21:59< mggm> so i guess this puts the end to the debate, at least until i run similar tests on the current development version
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20140413 15:29:54< mggm> btw: while reading the suggested wiki page, i found out that the ai doesn't regard such abilities like leadership, heals, cures, or illuminates when making recruitment decisions... true or did I miss something?
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20140413 18:48:57< Marcgal> According to the in-game drakes bio
20140413 18:49:17< Marcgal> "drakes rarely invade or trespass on areas already occupied by the other major races"
20140413 18:49:19< Marcgal> but still
20140413 18:50:19< Marcgal> "death in the battle is the most preferred way for a drake to leave this world"
20140413 18:50:47< Marcgal> this hardly makes sense, unless there are many drake-haters who constantly keep invading their territories
20140413 18:52:53< zookeeper> well, they probably practise single combat quite a lot amongst themselves, and even if they don't invade already-occupied lands much, they might still go to war eagerly for a number of reasons
20140413 18:54:44< Marcgal> If their single combat practises often end in death of either combatants, then this fashion is pretty suicidal in terms of the whole race
20140413 18:56:36< Marcgal> Also any war in which they participate can be fought either on drakes territory or on other races' territory
20140413 18:57:11< Marcgal> THe first requires other races to invade the drakes, the latter requires drakes to do the same
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20140413 19:10:30< zookeeper> well, i suppose there's plenty of areas occupied by minor races or monsters or whatnot, or so weakly and sparsely populated by a major race
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20140413 19:12:02< zookeeper> i think the point was more like conveying that they don't really need to invade the kind of areas most other major races inhabit, since they can live in places where few others can
20140413 19:12:14< zookeeper> dwarves being a likely exception
20140413 19:14:36< zookeeper> i dunno if it's an inconsistency to have a very martial society yet which doesn't tend to invade others, or if i just fail at thinking up explanations for that
20140413 19:16:24< Marcgal> it is not an inconsistency to have a very martial society yet which doesn't tend to invade others, since this society can focus only on improving it's abilities to defend its territory
20140413 19:17:32< Marcgal> but it is an inconsistency (imho) to have a society which does not tend to invade others and whose members aggresively seek to die in combat
20140413 19:19:02< Marcgal> or...
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20140413 19:22:45< Marcgal> the drakes could participate a lot in other races' conflicts... they could for example act as mercenaries or be very loyal and always join their allies' causes or have a strong sense of morality, most often aiding those who they view as victims of some evil
20140413 19:23:38< Marcgal> but all of this would require the drakes to at least tresspass on other races areas
20140413 19:24:17< Marcgal> but according to their bio they don't even tresspass
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20140413 19:28:38< zookeeper> i guess it's "rarely trespass unless they're specifically looking for a fight", then :p
20140413 19:34:37< Marcgal> btw: there are lots of humans-, elves- or dwarves-centered mainline campaigns, there is even an orcish campaign, an undead campaign and a mermen campaign, but still there are no mainline drake campaigns!
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20140413 19:36:00< zookeeper> yep
20140413 19:36:31< Marcgal> well... why so?
20140413 19:36:55< Marcgal> Also, why no mainline campaign offers to use nagas?
20140413 19:37:11< zookeeper> because most campaigns were made or at least started before drakes were added and because all newbies want to make human/elf campaigns, i guess
20140413 19:37:23< zookeeper> practically all campaigns have started as user-made campaigns
20140413 19:38:23< zookeeper> no one decided that we're not gonna have much undead, orc or drake campaigns, it's just that no one's made one that's fit for mainline
20140413 19:39:39< Marcgal> Speaking of undead: there is (imho) another inconsistency in the game's plot
20140413 19:40:03 * zookeeper is gaming atm, so will respond with a delay
20140413 19:43:55< Marcgal> raising undead is in many campaigns described as evil. Still, in The Dead Waters (if one manages to get that undead bat in second scenario) protagonist mermen are able to control and raise their own zombies... with Cylanna the Priestess/Diviner approvement
20140413 19:45:42< Marcgal> i think that being a merman priestess/diviner does not fit well with necromancy
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20140413 19:58:53< zookeeper> uh, i can't say i remember that from DW
20140413 19:59:56< zookeeper> oh, right, a bonus thing
20140413 20:00:13< zookeeper> i didn't even know there was such a thing
20140413 20:02:29< zookeeper> and by raise their own you mean you can use the bat's plague to make more? yeah, i guess that's a bit weird :>
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20140413 20:05:37< Marcgal> Cylanna says: "I believe it is undead and has no will of its own, but the Kai may have the will power to direct it."
20140413 20:05:50< Marcgal> and Kai responds: "Fascinating. I shall certainly try."
20140413 20:11:03< Marcgal> and yet another incosistency: according to elves' bio, "A few elves, venturing far down the paths of magic and mysticism, become sensitive to the presence of cold iron and can even be burned by it"
20140413 20:12:13< Marcgal> Still, Elvish Sylph, Elvish Shyde, Elvish High Lord and their pre-evos have no weakness to blade nor to cold
20140413 20:12:49< Marcgal> this bio would hint at least 30 or even 40% weakness of a Sylph and Shyde!
20140413 20:13:16< Marcgal> And maybe 10-20% weakness of a Druid or Enchantress or High Lord
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20140413 20:24:02< tdk27> cold iron != cold damage or bladed weapons :P
20140413 20:24:18< tdk27> (it;s a traditional fairytale antimagic type material)
20140413 20:37:37< Marcgal> Great, but if cold iron burns elvish magi alive, why in the wide green world no one uses it in combat with elves?
20140413 20:38:07< tdk27> because it's generally the sort of thing where there' sone cold iron sword in an entire kingdom
20140413 20:38:14< tdk27> not "we give everyone these for breakfast"
20140413 20:47:58< celticminstrel> Marcgal: A possible resolution for the inconsistency might be that there are multiple drake factions that invade each other. So, drakes don't often invade the lands of other major races, but they do often invade the lands of other drakes.
20140413 20:48:16< celticminstrel> There's no reason to assume that drakes are a single united nation, after all.
20140413 20:50:10< Marcgal> celticminstrel: Well, that I would find strange, but OK - this makes sense
20140413 20:50:24< celticminstrel> What would you find strange?
20140413 20:52:56< Marcgal> invading only fellow drakes but keeping out of other races
20140413 20:53:25< Marcgal> tdk27: ah, ok, thanks for your expaination
20140413 20:53:44< celticminstrel> It's not strange if drakes like different kinds of environments from other races.
20140413 20:53:55< Marcgal> but this would require adapting TSG's dialogue
20140413 20:54:12< celticminstrel> I don't think I've played The South Guard yet.
20140413 20:54:43< Marcgal> Where Deoran says: "What is this? Elves bear steel swords. " and Etheliel responds: "They are but warriors. All elves feel the shadow of iron, and to those who walk our higher paths it is a bane, interfering with our magic."
20140413 20:54:51< Marcgal> This seems to regard /any/ iron
20140413 20:55:24< celticminstrel> Oh, you're talking about tdk27's explanation.
20140413 20:55:39< Marcgal> sorry for creating confusion
20140413 20:55:53< celticminstrel> I think only elvish sorcerer types are vulnerable to iron.
20140413 20:55:58< celticminstrel> Roughly, the shaman line.
20140413 20:56:17< celticminstrel> The higher-level ones would be more vulnerable than the lower-level ones.
20140413 20:56:26< celticminstrel> Winged elves are probably the most vulnerable.
20140413 20:56:37< celticminstrel> Also.
20140413 20:56:59< celticminstrel> I don't believe the "cold" in "cold iron" has anything to do with temperature.
20140413 20:58:30< celticminstrel> And I suspect steel doesn't actually count as "cold iron".
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20140413 21:24:38< tdk27> normally faery types dislike metal, iron in particular
20140413 21:24:45< tdk27> it's quite a wide-ranging cultural trope
20140413 21:25:02< tdk27> and wesnoth's setting is a classic fantasy derivative
20140413 21:25:39< tdk27> so the elvish caster lines don't use metal weapons, and they might be particularly injured by some cold-iron sword of +50% damage vs elves that someone puts in a campaign
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--- Log closed Mon Apr 14 00:00:08 2014