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20140601 13:57:51< mggm> How to kick ghosts.
20140601 13:58:07< mggm> I joined official server with nickname mggm3.
20140601 13:58:28< mggm> I created a game.
20140601 13:58:37< mggm> Then I had a @#$%^ router disconnect.
20140601 13:59:09< mggm> The game's still in the lobby. Hope ppl don't join, 'cause i won't be able to start it.
20140601 13:59:57< mggm> sadly, mggm3 was not a registered nick. But still, it's a ghost. Can I kick it somehow or not?
20140601 14:01:34< zookeeper> if it's unregistered then i don't think so
20140601 14:01:46< zookeeper> except by having an admin do it for you
20140601 14:02:45< mggm> zookeeper: will an admin be willing to do so?
20140601 14:02:49< mggm> How to find one?
20140601 14:03:08< mggm> Some nicks in the lobby are in bold, may i assume these are mods?
20140601 14:03:15< zookeeper> i would, but frankly it'll take longer for me to look up the commands and join the server than it'll take for the ghost to timeout
20140601 14:04:12< zookeeper> bolded nicks are just registered ones, i think
20140601 14:05:01< mggm> ah, ok
20140601 14:05:05< mggm> well, thanks then
20140601 14:05:26< zookeeper> doesn't it only take a couple of minutes for a ghost to timeout?
20140601 14:05:58< zookeeper> i dunno if it's different for games-in-the-making somehow
20140601 14:08:15< mggm> idk, but since my router sucks, i do have disconnects from time to time - if i recall, sometimes the ghosts were in as observers for the whole game
20140601 14:10:26< zookeeper> right, i wouldn't really know
20140601 14:11:15< mggm> besides, wouldn't it be wise to auto-kick anythings whose ping exceeds, say, 2000ms?
20140601 14:12:19< zookeeper> i don't know much about networking but that sounds really low, people can have occasional big lag spikes but still not disconnect
20140601 14:13:36< zookeeper> in wesnoth it doesn't really matter much if your connection has massive latency spikes. i don't know what the timeout duration is currently.
20140601 14:16:31< zookeeper> not knowing what sort of latency can realistically occur on a bad connection, i'd guess that something along the lines of 10-30s would sound reasonable in 99% of situations
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20140601 15:02:31< techtonik> hi
20140601 15:02:46< techtonik> does wwesnoth compile with boost 1.55.0?
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20140601 15:10:08< loonycyborg> Yes
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20140601 15:23:26< techtonik> how do you compile boost on mingw?
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20140601 15:30:55< loonycyborg> boost has a guide for that
20140601 15:32:34< loonycyborg> 'bootstrap' then 'b2' basically
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20140601 16:07:21< techtonik> compiling..
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20140601 16:48:07< techtonik> still compiling..
20140601 16:48:14< techtonik> (boost)
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20140601 17:47:12< techtonik> still compiling boost.. =(
20140601 17:47:24< techtonik> it will help to rewrite wesnoth in go
20140601 17:48:15 * celticminstrel thinks rewriting wesnoth sounds like a mostly futile effort.
20140601 17:48:40< celticminstrel> Though to be fair, I've never actually looked at the source.
20140601 17:48:47< celticminstrel> Is it C or C++?
20140601 17:54:00< fabi> c++
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20140601 18:02:14< techtonik> i don't know why it is C++ - the game is pretty static
20140601 18:02:25< techtonik> there is no need in high speeds
20140601 18:02:38< celticminstrel> I don't see the connection.
20140601 18:02:58< techtonik> in C++ the cost of modification is too high
20140601 18:03:08< techtonik> too much knowledge is needed
20140601 18:03:18< techtonik> it is not something you can hack over weekend
20140601 18:03:40< celticminstrel> I don't think that's necessarily true. Might be in the case of wesnoth, but...
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20140601 18:04:35< zookeeper> well, it's c++ because dave originally wrote it in c++. likely it was the language he was most comfortable with at the time.
20140601 18:05:05< techtonik> i am compiling damn boost and it already ate my all my free space :/
20140601 18:05:31< techtonik> and everything that this boost does is providing a sane stdlib for work with basic things
20140601 18:05:52< techtonik> that are already available in most modern programming languages
20140601 18:06:20< celticminstrel> Not everything in Boost is that.
20140601 18:06:52< zookeeper> i'd certainly agree that c++ doesn't seem like a very good choice for writing a game like wesnoth today, if one is equally comfortable with "easier" languages.
20140601 18:07:02< celticminstrel> Like Boost.Python or Boost.Spirit. Or maybe I'm getting the latter confused with a different module; I'm thinking of the C preprocessor.
20140601 18:07:24< celticminstrel> "Easier" languages.
20140601 18:07:32< Necrosporus> zookeeper, which language would you pick for wesnoth engine if you started it from scratch today?
20140601 18:07:48< celticminstrel> You'd think Python is easier, but getting it to work with pygame seems to end up being nearly impossible.
20140601 18:08:35< celticminstrel> I don't think C++ is a bad choice, though. There's probably better choices, but it's not a bad choice.
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20140601 18:09:13< zookeeper> Necrosporus, i don't know, i'm not very knowledgeable of different languages. i'd likely investigate the likes of python, lua, ruby, etc.
20140601 18:09:59< celticminstrel> I think Lua is more for embedding in a game than implementing the whole game... though, maybe I'm wrong.
20140601 18:10:16< zookeeper> yeah, i don't really know. that's why i'd have to investigate it :P
20140601 18:10:26< celticminstrel> Fair enough.
20140601 18:10:37< techtonik> 10:50 < lritter> the game always starts off on procedural generation, and uses it whenever it needs to conjure up new stuff
20140601 18:10:40< techtonik> 10:50 < lritter> but then hands it off to the player to make changes and mutations
20140601 18:10:43< techtonik> 10:51 < lritter> there's a concept for indirection modelling through "cross-breeding"
20140601 18:10:46< techtonik> 10:50 < lritter> the game always starts off on procedural generation, and uses it whenever it needs to conjure up new stuff
20140601 18:10:49< techtonik> 10:50 < lritter> but then hands it off to the player to make changes and mutations
20140601 18:10:52< techtonik> 10:51 < lritter> there's a concept for indirection modelling through "cross-breeding"
20140601 18:10:55< techtonik> 10:51 < lritter> e.g. you take two plants and you cross-breed them, and they merge into a new kind of plant
20140601 18:10:58< techtonik> 10:52 < lritter> all this is procedural, but there's also the imminent side of wear and tear
20140601 18:11:01< techtonik> 10:52 < lritter> things going kaput over time
20140601 18:11:04< techtonik> 10:52 < lritter> dents & holes blown into things
20140601 18:11:05< celticminstrel> ...
20140601 18:11:06< techtonik> 10:53 < lritter> for meshes, this is mostly a solved problem, the only remaining nagging problem is a texturing that survives changes in deformation
20140601 18:11:09< techtonik> 10:54 < lritter> texture quilting is pretty suitable, it's the solution i currently use, but it's only good at keeping coherence of larger patterns if it knows how to stitch those together.
20140601 18:11:13< techtonik> 10:55 < lritter> that is, the general orientation of a texture is along its normal, but the way it can be rotated around it is arbitrary
20140601 18:11:16< techtonik> 10:55 < lritter> like a cloth attached to a single nail;
20140601 18:11:19< techtonik> 10:55 < lritter> the cloth can be oriented any way as long as its not pinned down by a second nail
20140601 18:11:22< techtonik> 10:57 < lritter> the question is where to put that second nail and how to keep it relatively coherent when topology changes.
20140601 18:11:25< techtonik> oopsa 
20140601 18:11:27< techtonik> sorry
20140601 18:11:30< techtonik> hit wrong key
20140601 18:12:40< techtonik> there is a truth in statically compiled languages
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20140601 18:13:26< techtonik> python is cool to play with and prototype, but you still need to be careful
20140601 18:13:48< techtonik> because there is nobody to warn you about typos
20140601 18:13:59< celticminstrel> Sometimes they'll raise errors.
20140601 18:15:53< techtonik> i am actually from python world, there is a new lib called cffi that allows to call compiled c code from python and i am investigating how it works
20140601 18:16:44< zookeeper> and the reason why i said "a game like wesnoth" is because wesnoth doesn't have much real-time performance requirements. you just need to draw some 2D animations on-screen and scroll around, no need for c++ for that.
20140601 18:16:45< zookeeper> in fact, if the game was not in c++ then maybe hardware acceleration would be _easier_ to use via some library and we'd actually have much better performance.
20140601 18:17:25< celticminstrel> I think poor use of hardware accelaration is the fault of SDL, not C++.
20140601 18:17:27< techtonik> zookeeper: i would write this stuff on Kivy - it is Python + GUI + native translator IIUC
20140601 18:18:09< techtonik> something like Qt, but tablets first
20140601 18:18:51< techtonik> and hardware accelerated, because tablets won't work otherwise
20140601 18:19:19< techtonik> (and 've heard also runs on raspberry)
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20140601 19:55:30 * techtonik is still building boost :(
20140601 20:02:35< zookeeper> what, for 4 hours?
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20140601 20:56:23< techtonik> yes
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20140601 20:56:42< techtonik> and it is still building..
20140601 20:57:11< techtonik> it appeared that it is building all configurations and all libraries
20140601 20:58:27< techtonik> after reading docs i relauched build to have only "release" versions
20140601 21:01:04< zookeeper> that's... insanity
20140601 21:01:51< zookeeper> at some point i attempted to build wesnoth myself. it didn't work out, but i did notice that the build times were obnoxiously long... but not that long.
20140601 21:02:34< shadowm> You don't really need all Boost libraries for Wesnoth.
20140601 21:02:56< shadowm> But what's done is done, I guess.
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20140601 21:03:54< zookeeper> doesn't that mean there's something wrong with the build files or something, if it's building things it doesn't need?
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20140601 21:08:03< shadowm> It'll build all libraries by default IIRC, no idea about debug vs. release.
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20140601 21:46:10< techtonik> yes, i need to figure out which libraries are needed, but there is nothing like dependency management for C stuff
20140601 21:46:24< techtonik> so i don't know where to look at
20140601 21:46:36< techtonik> wiki page says it is outdated
20140601 21:46:47< techtonik> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnWindowsOld
20140601 21:47:47< shadowm> The INSTALL file in the root of the Wesnoth source tree.
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20140601 23:44:01< janebot> Tweet (by @Wesnoth) (RT @shikadilord) Sorry for the 40 minutes of http://Wesnoth.org downtime, folks. It should be solved now. (Did anyone else even notice?) [ https://twitter.com/Wesnoth/status/473248631202799617 ]
--- Log closed Mon Jun 02 00:00:32 2014