--- Log opened Wed Jul 16 00:00:07 2014
--- Day changed Wed Jul 16 2014
20140716 00:00:07< mattsc> I figured that it should be because of the ‘coward’ in it, but I’ve often be wrong about these kinds of things.
20140716 00:00:15< mattsc> *been
20140716 00:00:18< shadowm> mattsc: Is it displayed in the UI?
20140716 00:00:35< mattsc> shadowm: yes, it’s a label on the map
20140716 00:00:39< shadowm> Is it used as an identifier in code?
20140716 00:00:48< mattsc> No
20140716 00:00:53< mattsc> I am asking because of this:  http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=40747
20140716 00:01:00< shadowm> Is this only used for debugging purposes?
20140716 00:01:34< mattsc> No, it’s only there because there are a whole bunch of cowards with different parameters on the map.  It’s meant to show the player what each of them is supposed to do.
20140716 00:01:38< shadowm> Meaning: are normal players supposed to see any of this?
20140716 00:02:06< shadowm> Or is this some kind of test scenario for WML coders who are supposed to read a load of documentation in English anyway?
20140716 00:02:26< mattsc> Well, people who care about putting Micro AIs into their scenarios and want to check out the behavior in a test scenario are.  I don’t know if those qualify as “normal players”
20140716 00:02:45< mattsc> So, the latter of your options, I guess.
20140716 00:02:46< shadowm> They do not.
20140716 00:03:19< mattsc> Okay, so then I should take the translatable mark away…
20140716 00:03:30< shadowm> You'll note that most of data/scenario-test.cfg is full of untranslatable strings that would normally be required to be translatable in any other context.
20140716 00:03:34< mattsc> */mark/amrker ?  something like that
20140716 00:03:51< mattsc> I see.
20140716 00:04:12< mattsc> I didn’t know that.  I just set up MAI test scenarios like any campaign scenario.
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20140716 00:05:02< shadowm> It seems like you have a whole textdomain dedicated to this anyway? I surmise translators could be told to not translate it and the textdomain be excluded from g.w.o stats.
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20140716 00:05:34< mattsc> Yes, I think Espreon changed that at some point.
20140716 00:05:37< shadowm> OK no, there are some strings in that textdomain that seem used in regular situations.
20140716 00:05:45< shadowm> #: data/ai/ais/ai_default_rca.cfg:5
20140716 00:05:47< shadowm> msgid "Multiplayer_AI^Default AI (RCA)"
20140716 00:05:53< mattsc> … I know that some of that has been translated already.  So I apologize to the translators for the added, unnecessary work.  :(
20140716 00:06:05< shadowm> Et cetera. Though I will question the decision of throwing an opaque acronym like that at users in the MP configuration screen.
20140716 00:06:30< mattsc> That one is not one of mine.  That was there already before I did anything about these things.
20140716 00:06:31< shadowm> Not even I really know what it stands for... "reconfigurable candidate actions"?
20140716 00:06:38< mattsc> hehe
20140716 00:07:06< mattsc> shadowm: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/AiWML#RCA_AI
20140716 00:07:28< mattsc> Again, not my creation  (chuckle)
20140716 00:07:29< shadowm> Okay.
20140716 00:07:40< mattsc> oh, chuckling doesn’t work here.  Oh well.
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20140716 00:08:17< mattsc> So, recommendation what I should do here?
20140716 00:08:35< mattsc> Sounds like I should at least take the _ out for those labels?
20140716 00:08:53< shadowm> That's an option if there's really no point to translating those labels.
20140716 00:09:32< mattsc> There probably isn’t.
20140716 00:09:35< shadowm> Otherwise, a #po: comment in the preceding line could at least provide some context for translators to understand what they mean.
20140716 00:10:28< mattsc> Okay, thanks, shadowm.  I’ll remove those then, I think that’s the best option here.
20140716 00:18:25< irker273> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:master 241faebd7a2d / data/ai/micro_ais/scenarios/guardians.cfg: Guardian Micro AI: remove translation marks from map labels http://git.io/BjJBRw
20140716 00:19:39< irker273> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:1.12 147a014a7bd1 / data/ai/micro_ais/scenarios/guardians.cfg: Guardian Micro AI: remove translation marks from map labels http://git.io/2OVc3Q
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20140716 01:31:35< iceiceice> hmm i realized there's something wrong with my unit traits patch, why is wose getting a list of traits :/
20140716 01:31:41< iceiceice> it seems to work for all other units
20140716 01:40:16< irker273> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master ea9a76dfb1b1 / src/help.cpp: Display number of random traits with the list, and skip if zero. http://git.io/AUJn9A
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20140716 02:49:14< irker273> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 53f2e910b0a7 / src/help.cpp: help separates musthave traits from random traits, shows a count http://git.io/1ASGYw
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20140716 05:04:56< irker273> wesnoth: Zappaman wesnoth:master 1e0ae693b29f / data/themes/default.cfg:  This patch adds a feature mentioned in http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding, http://git.io/gS3EUQ
20140716 05:04:59< irker273> wesnoth: Zappaman wesnoth:master b385cdd07a5d / changelog data/core/about.cfg players_changelog: added to changelog and about.cfg http://git.io/R6z-YQ
20140716 05:05:00< irker273> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 231d4f9762e9 / changelog data/core/about.cfg data/themes/default.cfg players_changelog: Merge pull request #247 from Zappaman/command_mode_b http://git.io/Z-lYNw
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20140716 06:17:33< Soliton> iceiceice: references to some first item on the EasyCoding page are fairly useless for commit messages. no one will be able to figure out what they mean in a bit.
20140716 06:18:13< iceiceice> hmm i guess i should have told zappaman to change it
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20140716 06:18:34< iceiceice> i didnt think about it
20140716 06:20:26< Soliton> references to other pull requests are probably not useful either. all that should be in the pull request description instead.
20140716 06:20:43< Soliton> not a big deal anyway, of course.
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20140716 06:48:39< iceiceice> Soliton: do you have an opinion on the changes to fungus type?
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20140716 06:51:28< Soliton> doesn't seem listed in the changelog.
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20140716 07:33:49< iceiceice> Soliton: it was committed by Fabi more than a month ago,
20140716 07:33:53< iceiceice> i think it was in the changelog and release notes
20140716 07:34:26< iceiceice> there was a forum post today about what the balance impacts are, and whether to revert
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20140716 07:41:37-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string+feature freeze active on 1.12 | 242 bugs, 344 feature requests, 29 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Alternate logs: http://wesnoth.debian.net | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20140716 08:45:57< max_torch> what was the day in which the mushroom change was discussed?
20140716 08:46:51< Soliton> iceiceice: well, i've looked in the changelog and didn't find it so i can't say anything about it.
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20140716 09:03:28< Soliton> Xalzar: there is a link to the public logs in the topic.
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20140716 09:12:08< Xalzar> Soliton: you sure? Maybe I am blind :O
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20140716 09:40:38< irker962> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 65da898a4c24 / data/core/help.cfg: fixup some comments about terrains in help.cfg added earlier http://git.io/Cr3nvw
20140716 09:40:38< irker962> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master fc1c41c00b54 / src/help.cpp: tweak the help page list of traits display, for undead units http://git.io/9vyaZQ
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20140716 19:32:02< irker902> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 51725fd67130 / / (11 files in 4 dirs): add a "special notes" for defense caps, with a link to explanation http://git.io/6GJAGA
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20140716 19:41:37-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string+feature freeze active on 1.12 | 243 bugs, 344 feature requests, 29 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Alternate logs: http://wesnoth.debian.net | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20140716 20:32:01< AI0867> wesbot: seen mattsc
20140716 20:32:01< wesbot> AI0867: The person with the nick mattsc last spoke 20h 21m ago.  5h 48m ago was here and on the channels #wesnoth, #wesnoth-de and #wesnoth-umc-dev with the message: Quit: Traveling and mostly out of contact until Aug 11
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20140716 20:39:00< irker902> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 6c19b3e8654c / src/server/game.cpp: remove server compability code for 1.11.12 http://git.io/Mc16Ww
20140716 20:40:09< irker902> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:1.12 00b191cc4b47 / src/server/game.cpp: remove server compability code for 1.11.12 http://git.io/TGYZ9Q
20140716 20:42:56< iceiceice> hey, can anyone with a moment give some feedback on this thing i added to the help about the funky "negative defense modifier" stuff that affects cavalry? 
20140716 20:42:57< iceiceice> http://imgur.com/a/x6h6F#0
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20140716 20:57:36< Soliton> iceiceice: instead of "yes" for defense capped you could just mention the limit's value?
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20140716 20:58:44< iceiceice> yeah i guess that's a good idea
20140716 20:58:57< iceiceice> currently it will always be the same as the defense rating
20140716 20:59:20< iceiceice> but maybe it looks nicer that way
20140716 20:59:45< zookeeper> are there specific units besides ghouls due to which fungus can't be worst movement _and_ worst defense?
20140716 21:00:25< zookeeper> i might be missing something, but AFAICT most problems would be eliminated with that
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20140716 21:01:30< iceiceice> zookeeper: i think i misunderstood
20140716 21:01:38< iceiceice> ghouls have good defense on fungus
20140716 21:01:42< zookeeper> yes
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20140716 21:02:46< Soliton> iceiceice: also s/overrided/overridden/
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20140716 21:03:50< zookeeper> but are there other units which have particularly good defense on fungus? if not, then would the simplest solution be to make fungus worst movement and worst defense, and make ghouls have an exception to their fungus defense?
20140716 21:04:34< Soliton> skeletons have 60% instead of 50% IIRC. not too important though, i think.
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20140716 21:05:44< iceiceice> zookeeper: i went through the units.cfg file and checked what units where affected by the change
20140716 21:05:54< iceiceice> i dont think that the stats of and human, undead, or orc has changed
20140716 21:05:57< iceiceice> for any fungus hex
20140716 21:06:03< iceiceice> by making the fungus a dual type
20140716 21:06:10< iceiceice> s/and/any
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20140716 21:06:41< iceiceice> because, for eexample, on fungus + flat, the ghoul gets 60 def and 2mp under "best defense wrost movement", which is what it had before
20140716 21:06:52< iceiceice> and similarly for fungus + hill etc.
20140716 21:07:33< iceiceice> the only change is, loyal and khalifate cavalry on fungus + flat and fungus + hill, getting higher defense,
20140716 21:07:42< iceiceice> dwarves getting higher defense on fungus hill and fungus cave
20140716 21:07:47< iceiceice> gryphons getting higher defense
20140716 21:08:03< iceiceice> and rebels are 3mp instead of 2mp on fungus cave
20140716 21:08:12< iceiceice> also mermen and naga but i dont think thats important
20140716 21:08:25< iceiceice> idk maybe there is some change i missed but i tried to be thorough
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20140716 21:08:54< iceiceice> oh, also khalifate foot soldiers get 60% def on fungus hill now instead of 40, just like dwarves
20140716 21:09:23< Soliton> the question was about changes when switching to worst defense not about what has changed recently.
20140716 21:09:29< iceiceice> ohhh
20140716 21:09:32< iceiceice> i misunderstood
20140716 21:10:33< iceiceice> i think that would change fungus flat quite a bit
20140716 21:10:44< iceiceice> it would make all humans have worse defense on fungus flat
20140716 21:11:08< zookeeper> hmh, yeah, i guess flat would be a problem
20140716 21:11:15< iceiceice> also dwarves
20140716 21:11:42< AI0867> well, dwarves used to get worse defense on cave+fungus than on cave
20140716 21:12:23< iceiceice> yeah i was wondering if that was important for balance
20140716 21:12:30< iceiceice> in the scenarios with dwarves in caves
20140716 21:12:34< zookeeper> on a rather unrelated note: i was thinking whether we could pull off making both forests and fungus disregard base terrain if the base terrain is flat. i mean technically i'm sure we can do that somehow, but would it be a simpler exception than the current mess?
20140716 21:13:34< iceiceice> zookeeper: idk thats not a bad idea
20140716 21:13:48< iceiceice> i think if you do that maybe you can get rid of the negative modifiers on cavalry?
20140716 21:13:54< zookeeper> exactly
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20140716 21:14:01< iceiceice> maybe can get rid of negative modifiers entirely
20140716 21:14:13< AI0867> I rather doubt it
20140716 21:14:57< Soliton> where else do we use it?
20140716 21:15:06< iceiceice> there are no units that are slower on flat than forest i think?
20140716 21:15:27< iceiceice> that would be a major obstacle to such a change but i dont think there are any
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20140716 21:15:47< zookeeper> if there are then they are probably inconsequential, like a cuttlefish or something
20140716 21:16:15< AI0867> grepping for '=-' in data/core/units.cfg gave only one result
20140716 21:16:35< iceiceice> AI0867: there's another also though for Chocobone
20140716 21:16:36< zookeeper> cavalry would then get 40% on flat, 30% on flat forest and again 40% on forested hills... but i dunno if that's too weird?
20140716 21:16:38< iceiceice> in data/core/units/undead/
20140716 21:17:09< AI0867> zookeeper: that doesn't sound right
20140716 21:17:10< iceiceice> zookeeper: hmm :/
20140716 21:18:27< Soliton> forrest on hills is very light forrest...
20140716 21:21:35< Soliton> does it matter graphically what terrain is base and what overlay? i.e. is forest on hills graphically the same hills on forest?
20140716 21:23:50< zookeeper> well you can't have forest as a base
20140716 21:23:56< zookeeper> if that's what you mean
20140716 21:24:02< Soliton> yeah, ok.
20140716 21:24:30< zookeeper> forest is an overlay-only terrain
20140716 21:25:21< Soliton> i was wondering about some scheme where the base terrain is the one that matters for stats.
20140716 21:26:54< Soliton> or have the overlay just provide a modifier to the stats. i.e. for mounted -10 on defense for forest etc...
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20140716 21:28:00< Soliton> probably not easy to get everything right with either and it'd be possible to get above 100 or below 0.
20140716 21:29:48< zookeeper> i dunno, might get all the correct defense values that way but sounds like it'd get pretty complicated
20140716 21:31:14< irker902> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 09c062d50a39 / data/core/help.cfg: fix a typo s/overrided/overridden/ in help for terrains http://git.io/-YA36A
20140716 21:31:16< irker902> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 43fb84de8be6 / data/core/help.cfg src/help.cpp: Instead of 'yes' show the defense cap value in help. http://git.io/pb6B1A
20140716 21:31:18< irker902> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 8ae0dea1b524 / src/server/game.cpp: Merge branch 'master' of git://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth http://git.io/YxrJQg
20140716 21:33:41< zookeeper> i guess my idea doesn't work well with fungus because it's usually used with cave as the base terrain, not flat
20140716 21:36:21< iceiceice> i actually dont think the defense caps is so messy
20140716 21:36:29< iceiceice> it gives you a way to say "this terrain is hostile to this unit"
20140716 21:36:43< iceiceice> which you cant do if you are using best defense worst movement or best defense best movement
20140716 21:37:46< iceiceice> Soliton: maybe instead of yes or the defense rating number, should show an icon of some kind?
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20140716 21:40:27< Soliton> i think showing the cap value is best. maybe you could logically deduce that the value must be the defense rating mentioned there but without knowing the underlying workings that doesn't sound like a given. so instead i'd just mention the value and leave no doubt.
20140716 21:47:27< iceiceice> yeah that makes sense
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20140716 21:50:36< iceiceice> hmm, maybe we should replace the "feral" trait with a defense cap
20140716 21:51:04< iceiceice> it's pretty much the same thing
20140716 21:51:18< iceiceice> or i guess we could replace defense caps with traits
20140716 22:02:17< Soliton> that has the benefit of providing a custom description for the cap.
20140716 22:03:12< zookeeper> can't give third traits
20140716 22:03:35< zookeeper> they usually won't fit on-screen, looks dorky
20140716 22:05:05< iceiceice> i had a hard time to get the list of traits associated to a unit to look good when feral is involved: http://imgur.com/a/MGPj3#9
20140716 22:05:13< iceiceice> what i have there is ok but it could be better
20140716 22:05:41< iceiceice> if it was a defense cap instead, could add a new {SPECIAL_NOTES_FERAL} that customizes the explanation with the description for feral
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20140716 22:07:29< Soliton> won't solve the need for musthave traits though.
20140716 22:08:42< iceiceice> y but the only time you have musthave traits and also random traits is with feral units
20140716 22:08:59< iceiceice> if feral were a defense cap, the "traits" would always be a single line, for mainline units
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20140716 22:30:22< irker902> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master c5298074be47 / src/help.cpp: defense cap number always has the same color as the defense rating http://git.io/r0v8FQ
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20140716 22:38:50< gfgtdf> iceiceice: do you know 1) what  cfg_ does in https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/variable.hpp#L165, and 2) why cache_ is not const ?
20140716 22:39:34< gfgtdf> iceiceice: hm ok  think i got an swer for 1)
20140716 22:39:50< iceiceice> yeah cfg_ is for if you want to make it "safe" by making a private copy of the underlying cfg
20140716 22:39:56< iceiceice> cache_ stuff usualyl is not const,
20140716 22:40:05< iceiceice> usually caches are mutable
20140716 22:40:09< iceiceice> because they are an implementation detail
20140716 22:40:22< iceiceice> if i have a const object and i want to ask it a question,
20140716 22:40:26< iceiceice> and it is using caches to speed up the answers,
20140716 22:40:38< iceiceice> i want it to be able to update the cache before it gives me the answer, even though it is const
20140716 22:41:18< iceiceice> usually no one should be accessing the object's cache directly so that's not a problem
20140716 22:42:22< gfgtdf> iceiceice: no here we use chache for mempoty savetf
20140716 22:42:25< gfgtdf> savety
20140716 22:42:44< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i dont think we ever change it
20140716 22:42:57< iceiceice> hmm ok, in this case its not really a "cache"
20140716 22:43:06< iceiceice> but still i think it should be mutable because we sometimes call "make_safe()"
20140716 22:43:31< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i dotn say it shouldnt be mutable
20140716 22:43:49< iceiceice> oh you want it to be a pointer to const?
20140716 22:43:56< gfgtdf> iceiceice:  ye
20140716 22:43:58< iceiceice> if that compiles its probably a good idea
20140716 22:44:22< gfgtdf> iceiceice: hm i just tested
20140716 22:44:35< gfgtdf> iceiceice: it doesnt compiel becasue 'all_children_iterator' is not implemented for const
20140716 22:44:54< iceiceice> maybe make a quick const version which uses const cast?
20140716 22:45:15< iceiceice> unless you see a reason not to do that, i guess we do that pretty frequently
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20140716 22:46:31< iceiceice> idk if its good practice but it is done in the unit map for instance
20140716 22:46:59< iceiceice> i guess its okay as long as no one ever allocates a const unit_map :)
20140716 22:47:00< gfgtdf> iceiceice: hm no it compiles not
20140716 22:47:02< gfgtdf> now
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20140716 23:06:35< irker902> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master ae0f4b0e9b6e / data/core/help.cfg: improve some of the help info in the traits section http://git.io/zj0bAw
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--- Log closed Thu Jul 17 00:00:23 2014