--- Log opened Mon Oct 13 00:00:20 2014
20141013 00:37:00< shadowm> vultraz: http://i.imgur.com/xhIuOdj.png
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20141013 01:39:59< shadowm> http://i.imgur.com/OtTD0rH.png
20141013 01:41:41< vultraz> impressive o_o
20141013 01:42:46< vultraz> The bottom border seems to clash a bit, though
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20141013 01:46:21< vultraz> shadowm: now the problem is that the rest of the page looks too bland... :P
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20141013 01:49:00< vultraz> shadowm: may I have the code
20141013 01:50:32< shadowm> No.
20141013 01:50:52< shadowm> It's still unfinished and unrefactored.
20141013 01:51:29< vultraz> Alright. I assume your doing this means my code input is no longer require?
20141013 01:51:33< vultraz> required*
20141013 01:51:39< ancestral> I like to call it “Wesnoth 12”
20141013 01:52:55< ancestral> Decimal points seem… largely unimportant to me
20141013 01:54:09< ancestral> shadowm: Why is it “Battle for Wesnoth” in some places, “The Battle for Wesnoth” in other places, and just “Wesnoth” in even more places?
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20141013 01:58:18< ancestral> Even in that image you made you have both “Battle for Wesnoth” and “The Battle for Wesnoth”
20141013 01:59:02-!- Necrosporus_ is now known as Necrosporus
20141013 02:00:51< vultraz> language 
20141013 02:01:29< iceiceice> ancestral: this is a good point
20141013 02:01:34< vultraz> it's the same reason you go between "The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim", "Elder Scrolls V, Skyrim", and "Skyrim"
20141013 02:01:39< iceiceice> you know, as i understand, there are no plans ever to make a wesnoth 2.0
20141013 02:01:48< iceiceice> and its a bit hard to imagine that it would happen...
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20141013 02:01:55< iceiceice> idk what it would mean
20141013 02:02:11< iceiceice> i guess, throw out all the code, throw out all the WML and start from scratch?
20141013 02:02:19< iceiceice> i just don't think that would ever happen
20141013 02:02:41< iceiceice> maybe we should just drop the "1." in the version numbers
20141013 02:02:58< vultraz> iceiceice: I rose the possibility some months back in the ML about calling this Wesnoth 2.0, but it was rejected on grounds that there's still stuff that's in an unfinished enough state to justify being called that
20141013 02:03:35< iceiceice> i see
20141013 02:10:04< shadowm> Vote me for president and I'll switch you to a X.Y-based version numbering scheme.
20141013 02:10:17< shadowm> (Wesnoth 13.x instead of Wesnoth 1.13.x, etc.)
20141013 02:10:39< ancestral> iceiceice: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=383926#p383926 and http://shadowm.ai0867.net/blog/archives/105-On-Wesnoths-version-numbering-scheme,-and-Wesnoth-2.0.html
20141013 02:10:54< shadowm> Because, seriously, at this point it's silly to expect Wesnoth 2.0 to ever become a thing.
20141013 02:12:22< ancestral> From 2009 checklist before 2.0: GUI/theme engine; FormulaAI; Tutorial rewrite; Artwork complete; coop campaign support
20141013 02:12:22< shadowm> Ours isn't a commercial game that will suddenly be injected with heaps of cash to implement tons of major changes all of a sudden, it's a community project with slow and gradual changes over time.
20141013 02:13:47< vultraz> Would sure as hell be nice to have a heap of cash
20141013 02:13:54< ancestral> If you guys want a light-hearted read about 2.0, this is fun: http://r.wesnoth.org/t27017
20141013 02:13:54< shadowm> What iceiceice said above isn't only never going to happen, it's logistically unfeasible and dangerous.
20141013 02:14:42< shadowm> You can't "start from scratch" a software project to which thousands of people have invested so much of their own time and energy.
20141013 02:15:31< shadowm> It's basically giving them all a middle finger unless you are some kind of god who can replicate every feature and nuanced behavior (including bugs) from the original.
20141013 02:15:51< ancestral> iceiceice: Closest feasible thing is fork and drive development a different way
20141013 02:16:07< ancestral> Or, make your own, different game
20141013 02:16:09< vultraz> I've always though the BAF (bugs as features) thing was absurd
20141013 02:16:21< iceiceice> i think many games "2.0" is basically a different game
20141013 02:16:39< vultraz> But yes, iceiceice is right
20141013 02:16:51< vultraz> 2 detonates a sequal
20141013 02:16:56< shadowm> "Wesnoth 2.0: Beyond Irdya"
20141013 02:16:58< vultraz> sequel 
20141013 02:17:06< ancestral> “…let's call it Wesnoth 2000, because 2000 is totally awesome and totally the future.”
20141013 02:17:08< vultraz> it wouldn't even have the .0
20141013 02:17:11 * shadowm can't say that with a straight face.
20141013 02:17:28< vultraz> ancestral: 1000 intertz  for you
20141013 02:17:40< vultraz> internetz*
20141013 02:17:40< ancestral> vultraz: Go read the thread I linked to, you’ll enjoy it
20141013 02:17:41< iceiceice> you know i think we probably should trademark wesnoth 2.0 if we didn't already
20141013 02:17:59< shadowm> Oh no, let's not open that can of worms.
20141013 02:18:09< iceiceice> i could kind of see if some corporation / startup tried to start a wesnoth 2.0 "3D!!! and with lasers!!!"
20141013 02:18:16< ancestral> Don’t think you can trademark version numbers…
20141013 02:18:28< iceiceice> i think you can trademark the name of a product
20141013 02:18:40< vultraz> They would never do that unless wesnoth became sufficiently big to attract attention
20141013 02:18:51< iceiceice> wesnoth is actually fairly big
20141013 02:19:07< vultraz> Does it have 9.5 million players a month?
20141013 02:19:18< ancestral> Oh boy
20141013 02:19:31< ancestral> vultraz: Even Destiny doesn’t have that many yet
20141013 02:19:40< iceiceice> idk, how many people do you think would click on a link if they heard there was a 3D sequel to wesnoth being made
20141013 02:19:51< iceiceice> i think there would be quite a few, many many people have played the game over the eyars
20141013 02:19:51< shadowm> Everyone including me.
20141013 02:20:03< vultraz> Giff me!
20141013 02:20:09< ancestral> Pffff 3D
20141013 02:20:20< iceiceice> that's my attitude to, i'm just saying...
20141013 02:20:22< vultraz> ancestral: well I hear Destiny sucks
20141013 02:20:23< iceiceice> *too
20141013 02:21:30< ancestral> iceiceice: Have these things been done yet? GUI2/theme engine; FormulaAI; Tutorial rewrite; Artwork complete; coop campaign support
20141013 02:21:55< iceiceice> i think everything but GUI2 is mostly done...
20141013 02:22:02< iceiceice> i dont know if anyone uses the formula AI
20141013 02:22:02< shadowm> FormulaAI is going the way of the dodo.
20141013 02:22:16< ancestral> Well, this was a checklist from 5 years ago :-P
20141013 02:22:17< vultraz> MAI is the new way to go
20141013 02:22:19< iceiceice> coop campaign works, but its still a bit buggy
20141013 02:22:26< vultraz> let us embrace MAIs
20141013 02:22:31< shadowm> It's primary use remains inline operations in vconfig, but it's not recommended as an AI framework.
20141013 02:22:32< ancestral> Ivanovic said those things would need to be done before 2.0 could be considered at all
20141013 02:22:39< vultraz> Guaranteed profit within two years
20141013 02:22:43< ancestral> …5 years ago
20141013 02:22:51< shadowm> Tutorial rewrite: not even started.
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20141013 02:23:22< ancestral> vultraz: Get to work!
20141013 02:23:22< shadowm> Artwork complete: let's give a pony to each developer first.
20141013 02:23:23< ancestral> :-P
20141013 02:24:05< vultraz> ancestral: am I expected to be the person who fixes everything and then had his attempts improved on by better people?
20141013 02:24:13< shadowm> GUI2: ahahahaha.
20141013 02:24:19< ancestral> For everyone: I’m referencing this btw: http://r.wesnoth.org/p383926
20141013 02:24:21< shadowm> Hahaha.
20141013 02:24:26< shadowm> Hah. Hahah.
20141013 02:24:37< iceiceice> heyy... what's wrong with the tutorial?
20141013 02:24:47< ancestral> shadowm: So GUI1.12?
20141013 02:24:58< vultraz> LOL
20141013 02:25:19< shadowm> No.
20141013 02:25:20< ancestral> GUI½
20141013 02:25:21< iceiceice> hahah
20141013 02:25:37< ancestral> er 1½
20141013 02:25:54< shadowm> I wouldn't be surprised if we find ourselves working on GUI3 a year from now.
20141013 02:26:12< shadowm> For GUI2.5.
20141013 02:26:49< ancestral> Or jump ship an adopt some other library?
20141013 02:27:01< iceiceice> lol
20141013 02:27:07< iceiceice> yup, GUI3 will actually just be Qt
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20141013 02:27:29< shadowm> Past me would approve.
20141013 02:28:01< iceiceice> is there anything written on the wiki or anything about the GUI2 project?
20141013 02:28:12< iceiceice> it would be nice if there was like a brief technical overview
20141013 02:28:12< ancestral> Sorry, I still find it amazing that Wesnoth rolled-its-own-everything
20141013 02:28:15< shadowm> Well, there's the WML API reference for it.
20141013 02:28:24< iceiceice> hmm
20141013 02:28:26< shadowm> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GUIToolkitWML 
20141013 02:28:57< vultraz> Which makes about as much sense as hieroglyphics 
20141013 02:28:57< shadowm> There are also a few files in doc/ in the source tree describing some design concepts, but you need latex or something to build them and they didn't really answer my questions.
20141013 02:29:01< iceiceice> ahh thats the link i'm looking for
20141013 02:29:06< iceiceice> i was pretty sure this wasn't it :p
20141013 02:29:06< iceiceice> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GUI
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20141013 02:29:35< shadowm> vultraz: Yeah, most of the documentation is outdated or incomplete or has broken formatting.
20141013 02:30:04< shadowm> I've found that you don't get very far if you don't go and take a look at existing examples of what you want to do.
20141013 02:30:21< vultraz> ^
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20141013 02:30:28< vultraz> basically how I put together my custom gui dialogs
20141013 02:31:08< shadowm> I don't think we need "GUI2 Dialogs for Dummies™", but it'd be nice if some of the API was better documented.
20141013 02:31:59< vultraz> we need "How to Not Start A Project You Never Plan To Finish For Dummies"
20141013 02:32:11< shadowm> The thing is that fixing the documentation requires modifying magic comments throughout src/gui/ and I suspect a large number of those would cause conflicts for mordante.
20141013 02:32:40< ancestral> iceiceice: You can always read shadowm’s blog: http://shadowm.ai0867.net/blog/index.php?serendipity%5Baction%5D=search&serendipity%5BsearchTerm%5D=GUI2
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20141013 02:33:17< shadowm> I wouldn't be amused if I had to spend a whole afternoon resolving conflicts in one of my refactoring branches because someone decided to fix comments.
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20141013 02:37:23< ancestral> vultraz: Or just scrap everything and turn Wesnoth into a web app
20141013 02:37:58< vultraz> ancestral: shall we sell out to Zynga?
20141013 02:38:05< ancestral> Dialogs are easy in html and canvas
20141013 02:38:08< shadowm> ancestral: "Wesnoth" is acceptable in most "insider" contexts.
20141013 02:38:33< ancestral> vultraz: I should just hawk around my map viewer to them: http://mproud.com/wesnoth/canvas/
20141013 02:38:35< shadowm> Don't ask me about "The BfW" vs. "BfW" because I'm working with what I was given, including all of wesnoth.org.
20141013 02:38:56< ancestral> It’s hard to standardize it?
20141013 02:38:59< shadowm> The website calls it BfW except in announcements.
20141013 02:39:09< shadowm> The game calls itself TBfW.
20141013 02:39:18< ancestral> lolwut
20141013 02:39:31< shadowm> It's not really a question of whether it's hard or not, but rather whether it's worth anyone's time.
20141013 02:40:16< vultraz> [13:01:31]	vultraz	it's the same reason you go between "The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim", "Elder Scrolls V, Skyrim", and "Skyrim"
20141013 02:40:36< shadowm> Oh, also, the HttT scenario is named BfW.
20141013 02:41:00< shadowm> So the game called TBfW has a BfW scenario.
20141013 02:41:54< shadowm> If you think about it, the game is about playing a lot of different battles, most of which involving Wesnoth in some way. So it probably shouldn't be *the* Battle for Wesnoth.
20141013 02:42:20< shadowm> Instead, the HttT scenario should probably be *the* Battle for Wesnoth.
20141013 02:42:20< vultraz> "Several Battles for Wesnoth"
20141013 02:42:47< shadowm> But if you think about it further, it's most likely not the only time in Wesnoth's history that someone has fought a Battle for Wesnoth in Weldyn.
20141013 02:43:08< shadowm> For example, the EI finale (three scenarios) takes place in Weldyn.
20141013 02:43:17< shadowm> They are battling for Wesnoth. :p
20141013 02:43:22< ancestral> shadowm: Yeah, sure. However, if attention is put into lesser important details it raises the quality bar. What I mean is, quality put into one area will influence people to raise it in others
20141013 02:43:26< vultraz> "A Battle for Wesnoth"
20141013 02:44:07< ancestral> vultraz: It’s been a misspelling from day one. It was supposed to be “The Battles of West-North”
20141013 02:44:09< shadowm> So here's the question: is HttT's Battle for Wesnoth the first (The) Battle for Wesnoth ever fought, or is it undeserving of the title?
20141013 02:44:40< shadowm> Shouldn't we be looking into solving HttT's glaring misappropiation of a brand name first?
20141013 02:44:42< vultraz> ancestral: Battle for Greenland?
20141013 02:45:04< ancestral> shadowm: What would people have called it in Irdya centuries later?
20141013 02:45:44< shadowm> I'd call it "the <ordinal> Battle for Wesnoth".
20141013 02:46:06< shadowm> Also, TRoW's last scenario could be reasonably considered to be the *first* Battle for Wesnoth.
20141013 02:46:35< shadowm> I think LoW also has a scenario wherein an important Battle for Wesnoth takes place.
20141013 02:46:57< vultraz> ancestral: but didn't Greenland have the vikings, and vikings were nordic, and nordic people are nords, and nords are in Skyrim...
20141013 02:46:58< shadowm> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation
20141013 02:47:11< vultraz> PLOT TWIST: IRDYA IS AN ISLAND IN THE ELDER SCROLLS UNIVERSE!
20141013 02:47:57< shadowm> (I'll probably keep BfW in <title>s for the website redesign project because everyone calls it BfW already and TBfW just doesn't roll off the tongue.)
20141013 02:48:51< ancestral> vultraz: http://youtu.be/buqtdpuZxvk
20141013 02:49:09< iceiceice> i think we should roll with this: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=40079&p=567418&hilit=god+of+blood#p567392 , in wesnoth 2.0 we'll retcon it so that wesnoth is a god of blood
20141013 02:49:17< ancestral> Irdya is just one of millions and billions in this expanding universe
20141013 02:49:17< iceiceice> and maybe we can be in the "dwarf fortress" universe
20141013 02:49:31< iceiceice> so wesnoth and armok are competing gods of blood XD
20141013 02:52:23< shadowm> Campaigns including Battles for Wesnoth in The Battle for Wesnoth: HttT, TRoW, EI, LoW, DM (IIRC, never played it).
20141013 02:52:43< shadowm> So I guess there aren't enough Battles for Wesnoth after all, because that's like only half of the mainline campaigns.
20141013 02:53:19< ancestral> It’s like saying Battles for Azeroth
20141013 02:53:27< shadowm> Not sure if the palette-swap elves from UtBS should get a honorable mention seeing as how someone wasn't creative enough and named their community "Quenoth".
20141013 02:53:31< ancestral> Azeroth was a kingdom, and a region, and a continent…
20141013 02:54:34< ancestral> shadowm: From a marketing standpoint, having “Battle” in the name gives it more of a combat and tactical implication
20141013 02:54:47< ancestral> (Which Wesnoth has)
20141013 02:55:15< shadowm> Battles of Wesnoth.
20141013 02:56:24< shadowm> I wonder whether Dave originally used the full "[The] Battle for Wesnoth" title or just "Wesnoth".
20141013 02:57:04< ancestral> You’re the de facto historian around here, I’m surprised you don’t know the answer ;-)
20141013 02:57:12< shadowm> I remember he told me 'Wesnoth' was just a random made-up name that sounded good and fantasy-like.
20141013 02:57:22< ancestral> Right, I remember reading that on your blog
20141013 02:57:33< shadowm> But I don't think I asked him about the full title.
20141013 02:58:11< ancestral> (He’s online :-P)
20141013 02:58:35< shadowm> Speculating is more fun.
20141013 02:58:54< ancestral> The Vietnam War wasn’t technically a war
20141013 02:59:09< ancestral> Some could argue World War I or World War II weren’t really “World Wars”
20141013 02:59:45< ancestral> Hundred Years’ War wasn’t one war that lasted for a hundred years
20141013 03:00:25< ancestral> It was a series of conflicts
20141013 03:01:18< shadowm> 256x256 terrain tiles.
20141013 03:02:06< shadowm> I wonder what things would've been like if they had decided to go with 3D models instead of pixel art (which I suspect was the driving force behind the big terrain downscaling).
20141013 03:02:36< shadowm> Although I guess we can look at silvertree instead.
20141013 03:02:49< ancestral> The Three Kingdoms Era of ancient China is a misnomer; it was one kingdom
20141013 03:03:47< ancestral> shadowm: Silvertree, the highly successful Kickstarter-backed, Steam Greenlight game?
20141013 03:04:03< ancestral> In an alternate history, of course
20141013 03:04:10< shadowm> Haha.
20141013 03:04:27< shadowm> I'm not sure they would've stuck around long enough for KS to come into existence first.
20141013 03:04:41< shadowm> But sure. ;)
20141013 03:05:05< ancestral> Would be interesting if KS was already around, or Silvertree came much later
20141013 03:05:32< vultraz> screw silvertree
20141013 03:05:59< ancestral> vultraz: Well, that’s what happened
20141013 03:06:17< ancestral> People screwed it
20141013 03:08:12< vultraz> I want a full 3d , open-world rpg dark souls/skyrim -type wesnoth game
20141013 03:08:12< ancestral> shadowm: Or not 3D, but vector graphics
20141013 03:08:24< ancestral> vultraz: Start your own mod
20141013 03:08:36< iceiceice> i think there could be a 3d front end...
20141013 03:08:42< ancestral> Wesnoth IP is open for the taking
20141013 03:08:44< iceiceice> i dont know, make a kickstarter :p
20141013 03:09:02< iceiceice> all the graphics is up in the air now anyways with SDL_GPU, right?
20141013 03:09:03< ancestral> (A mod for Dark Souls or Skyrim, I mean)
20141013 03:09:07< iceiceice> oh
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20141013 03:10:49< ancestral> iceiceice: The easiest way to make a 3D Wesnoth would be to take another 3D game (open source?), fork it, and style it for Wesnoth, then keep developing it away from the original
20141013 03:11:05< iceiceice> idk
20141013 03:11:14< ancestral> But it would probably never be exactly the same as original Wesnoth
20141013 03:11:15< iceiceice> i made a 3d game once...
20141013 03:11:20< vultraz> it would be a huge mod
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20141013 03:11:44< iceiceice> i think at least in principle you could just throw out the old graphics pipeline and replace it with a 3d one
20141013 03:12:40< iceiceice> based on openGL or whatever
20141013 03:12:46< iceiceice> openGL is probably the way to go
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20141013 03:13:11< iceiceice> it would be a ton of work to redo the terrain graphics stuff
20141013 03:13:24< ancestral> vultraz: Silvertree lives! https://silvertree.com :-P
20141013 03:13:27< iceiceice> but i guess you would have to do something like that anyways
20141013 03:13:55< shadowm> I could do soooooooo much cool stuff with shaders and such in my campaigns.
20141013 03:14:24< vultraz> indeed
20141013 03:14:32< vultraz> AtS deserves to be a standalone aaa game
20141013 03:14:36< shadowm> And we don't even need to go 3D for that.
20141013 03:14:42< ancestral> A rotate-able battlefield would be nice…
20141013 03:16:09< vultraz> shadowm: I would pay $10 for AtS on steam
20141013 03:18:00< ancestral> vultraz: So does TLU
20141013 03:20:38< ancestral> http://r.wesnoth.org/t31799
20141013 03:25:24< Necrosporus> I didn't play AtS, but 'AAA games' is a term of budget of game as in amount of invested money resources, so I do not think wesnoth could be considered one, even if it's better by all stats
20141013 03:26:02< Necrosporus> Did anyone pay to anyone for developing AtS?
20141013 03:26:23< vultraz> shadowm would have loved that to be so
20141013 03:26:25< shadowm> I paid myself.
20141013 03:26:35< ancestral> Were there any Summer of Code participants who worked on it?
20141013 03:26:59< shadowm> In fact, I was forced to work more hours than what the contract stipulated.
20141013 03:27:17< shadowm> I'm never making art for that guy ever again.
20141013 03:28:09< Necrosporus> An AAA title is intended to demonstrate the very best within a gaming company or franchise.[5][better source needed] Examples of such games are: Crysis, Halo, Uncharted, Tomb Raider, Mass Effect, Skyrim, Grand Theft Auto, and Half-Life.
20141013 03:29:14< shadowm> vultraz isn't being serious.
20141013 03:29:35< shadowm> We use hyperbole to poke fun at each other all the time.
20141013 03:29:36< vultraz> No, I;m serious, if AtS were an aaa-quality game I'd buy it
20141013 03:30:09< vultraz> Of course, dugi would price his higher
20141013 03:30:10< Necrosporus> vultraz, you still could by it
20141013 03:30:11< ancestral> Hehehehe… 
20141013 03:30:16< ancestral> Valve could come in and say, “hey guys, let’s hire you main developers on to work on a real AAA Wesnoth game”
20141013 03:30:27< Necrosporus> vultraz, send shadowm few bitcoins
20141013 03:30:34< vultraz> I don't use bitcoins
20141013 03:30:36< shadowm> I don't accept monopoly money.
20141013 03:30:47< vultraz> And I don't have paypal
20141013 03:30:53< ancestral> Square cash
20141013 03:30:58< ancestral> Patreon
20141013 03:31:07< vultraz> Also, I suspect any donation will go toward the acquisition of chocolate
20141013 03:31:16< shadowm> And games.
20141013 03:31:18< Necrosporus> shadowm, what do you call monopoly money?
20141013 03:31:19< shadowm> And a GPU.
20141013 03:31:21< ancestral> I remember back in the ’90s
20141013 03:31:32< shadowm> Well, better GPU.
20141013 03:31:35< ancestral> A few of the games I played were “Beerware”
20141013 03:31:55< Necrosporus> shadowm, do you have such a GPU, that even Wesnoth runs slowly?
20141013 03:32:10< shadowm> I meant real games that require real GPUs.
20141013 03:32:19< shadowm> Wesnoth doesn't use the GPU*.
20141013 03:32:19< Necrosporus> Wesnoth is a very real game
20141013 03:32:25< vultraz> shadowm: gtx690 SLI
20141013 03:32:32< ancestral> shadowm: The Wesnoth foundation should donate to you
20141013 03:32:34< Necrosporus> nvidia sucks
20141013 03:32:53< Necrosporus> there is Wesnoth foundation?
20141013 03:32:55< shadowm> Mesa sucks.
20141013 03:33:02< ancestral> There’s money sitting around, amirite? ;-)
20141013 03:33:20< vultraz> Necrosporus: SACRILEGE! 
20141013 03:33:22< vultraz> Nvidia is the best
20141013 03:33:41< shadowm> Sorry, but I'm not letting Mesa in charge of a GPU I'd specifically purchase for features that Mesa doesn't even support that are needed by games.
20141013 03:33:53< Necrosporus> it's not the best until its open source driver runs faster than amd's one
20141013 03:34:01< shadowm> Catalyst is bullcrap.
20141013 03:34:15< Necrosporus> yes, as nvidia driver
20141013 03:34:23< Necrosporus> all proprietary drivers are
20141013 03:34:31< shadowm> I've never had a system crash involving NVIDIA's drivers.
20141013 03:34:36< ancestral> Valve is working on it
20141013 03:34:54< Necrosporus> I was talking about xf86-video-ati and xf86-video-nouveau
20141013 03:35:11< Necrosporus> when second will be faster, nvidia would not suck
20141013 03:35:14< shadowm> If I somehow got stuck with an AMD GPU I'd certainly prefer Mesa over Catalyst.
20141013 03:35:28< shadowm> But I'd rather not get stuck with an AMD GPU in the first place.
20141013 03:35:43< Necrosporus> but it's better supported by free drivers
20141013 03:36:04< Necrosporus> So I would pick AMD over nvidia
20141013 03:36:15< shadowm> Well, good for you, but free drivers aren't the goal for me.
20141013 03:36:31< shadowm> The goal for me is for stuff to work as the devs intended.
20141013 03:36:42< vultraz> ^
20141013 03:37:57< shadowm> (I do miss KMS, though. If only there was an easy way to let the Intel IGP drive the text consoles and the NVIDIA GPU drive the X tty.)
20141013 03:38:17< vultraz> what's with all this obsession with MA DRIVAHS GOTTA BE FREE
20141013 03:40:04< shadowm> (* Wesnoth doesn't use the GPU directly. SDL may choose to use the GPU for storing pixmaps on Linux/X11, but I think it practice it doesn't.)
20141013 03:41:09< shadowm> (Finally, SDL may perform X11 calls that may be implemented using the GPU for very basic 2D accel.)
20141013 03:42:20< shadowm> (And on Windows, I believe SDL tries to use DirectDraw instead of GDI first. It's still presumably very suboptimal compared to rewriting Wesnoth to call DirectDraw directly with a tailored pipeline.)
20141013 03:43:26< Necrosporus> But would not it make code more complex?
20141013 03:44:00< shadowm> Well, obviously.
20141013 03:44:09< shadowm> Also faster.
20141013 03:44:15< Necrosporus> only on windows
20141013 03:44:22< shadowm> No, that's just an example.
20141013 03:44:37< shadowm> OpenGL is a better target since it's better supported across different platforms.
20141013 03:45:15< Necrosporus> Wesnoth 1.12 is quite slow, do you think OpenGL would fix that?
20141013 03:45:35< shadowm> Depends on the cause of the slowness.
20141013 03:45:40< shadowm> It's very fast for me. ;)
20141013 03:45:42< Necrosporus> big map?
20141013 03:45:56< shadowm> There are two separate issues involved in big maps.
20141013 03:46:32< shadowm> 1) Scrolling software surfaces, etc. (Would GL fix this? If used correctly, yes. Need to get someone experienced with this kind of games.)
20141013 03:46:46< shadowm> 2) Hard disk access during image cache population.
20141013 03:47:02< Necrosporus> Also did you know wesnoth could run if you make a map bigger than editor accepts
20141013 03:47:05< shadowm> It's a non-evident issue, but terrain graphics are rendered on-demand as you scroll the map.
20141013 03:47:27< shadowm> For terrain graphics that haven't been rendered in the same session before, this incurs in blocking disk I/O.
20141013 03:47:58< shadowm> Once they've been rendered, they are cached in memory and aren't evicted unless you use :refresh or press F5 on the titlescreen.
20141013 03:48:29< shadowm> Unit animations have the same problem.
20141013 03:48:29< Necrosporus> Also wesnoth was slow when uncovering fog of war, not sure if it's fixed or not yet
20141013 03:49:09< shadowm> I've heard the instantaneous shroud/fog refresh during moves in 1.11.x is slow for some people, yes.
20141013 03:49:39< shadowm> Once again, it's not for me, but I wouldn't rule out there being an needlessly expensive lookup operation taking place every time.
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20141013 03:52:22< shadowm> For example, it used to be that the animated units lookup went over the whole map _for every unit_ instead of keeping track of previous units.
20141013 03:52:58< shadowm> The result was that standing unit animations caused incredibly high CPU usage and lag with only a handful of units.
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20141013 04:03:58< shadowm> Oh, and it's probably a bad idea to use maps larger than whatever the editor's max map size is. ISTR the A* pathfinding went haywire after a certain path length.
20141013 04:04:29< shadowm> Maybe that was fixed by someone else at a later point, but at the time the bug was marked Won't Fix.
20141013 04:08:05< Necrosporus> Though it could be used to make Wesnoth slow for purpose of determining why 
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20141013 04:09:51< ancestral> After a certain distance, you’d think the smart thing to do would be to find a midpoint between the two units and have the unit work its way to the midpoint
20141013 04:09:59< ancestral> Once it got close enough, then A* it
20141013 04:10:01< ancestral> its way
20141013 04:11:07< Necrosporus> do you think that's a good or bad idea to make several maps overlap?
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20141013 04:30:59< iceiceice> shadowm: "... this incurs in blocking disk I/O."
20141013 04:31:02< iceiceice> really?
20141013 04:41:12< shadowm> Yes.
20141013 04:41:50< shadowm> I.e. synchronously loading image files.
20141013 04:46:59< iceiceice> well... that's silly
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20141013 05:35:15< iceiceice> here's my theory,
20141013 05:35:34< iceiceice> we shouldn't call it wesnoth 2.0, until we've made the AI good enough that all of the campaigns have to be rebalanced beyond recognition
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20141013 05:41:34< vultraz> Wesnoth lvl: SKYNET
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20141013 07:09:37< zookeeper> shadowm, i'd replace "a new faction" with "a new multiplayer faction". newbies often seem to not understand that factions are a multiplayer-only concept, so i'd slip in that detail whenever possible.
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20141013 07:53:38 * shadowm just confirmed po4a-gettextize only supports XML and XHTML: https://gist.github.com/shikadilord/f93ee9a51df39085759c
20141013 07:55:26< shadowm> However, it doesn't seem to actually sniff the doctype.
20141013 07:58:21< shadowm> So I could use HTML5 if I wanted to as long as I made sure to use the XML serialization. Not that there's a concrete benefit to switching the doctype.
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20141013 09:28:14< shadowm> vultraz: http://shadowm.ai0867.net/westin-test/template.html
20141013 09:28:25< shadowm> Do not look at the code, it's even worse than my room right now.
20141013 09:28:58< shadowm> Also, I forgot to upload the js dir, fixed now.
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20141013 10:14:19< vultraz> shadowm: can I just have a zip, I can't figure out how to dl from that
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20141013 12:02:47< gfgtdf> iceiceice: you know whats wrong withthe gcc build here:https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/37763459 i already restarted 3timesand it still fails
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20141013 15:16:57< irker651> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 5cfef2eee586 / src/connect_engine.cpp: fix team settings in mp http://git.io/6S5XlA
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20141013 16:38:55< iceiceice> gfgtdf: no i don't know
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20141013 16:44:48< iceiceice> gfgtdf: maybe we can use gcc 4.9 on travis?
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20141013 16:46:44< timotei> shadowm: That's a very awesome, nice and fantastic welcome/presentation page! :D
20141013 16:46:47< timotei> Kudos!
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20141013 16:54:24< iceiceice> shadowm: wow, the download button is really fancy now
20141013 16:56:41< fabi_> hello all
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20141013 17:07:53< iceiceice> hi fabi_ ,
20141013 17:08:09< fabi_> hi iceiceice
20141013 17:08:20< iceiceice> hey, did you see this forum post?
20141013 17:08:21< iceiceice> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41002
20141013 17:09:26< fabi_> iceiceice: No, it is new to me.
20141013 17:10:33< iceiceice> yeah, so i don't know if what i wrote was entirely accurate, it was just my best guess
20141013 17:10:53< iceiceice> it would be nice if you could weigh in also
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20141013 17:16:19< fabi_> I really don't know what to say there.
20141013 17:19:40< iceiceice> is it correct that we can't add terrain group buttons anymore?
20141013 17:23:59< fabi_> well
20141013 17:24:07< fabi_> yes
20141013 17:24:09< fabi_> it is
20141013 17:25:56< iceiceice> ok, i just wanted to make sure
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20141013 17:29:13< fabi_> it is not a big deal to get group buttons back but not without doing some c++ background stuff.
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20141013 17:36:09< iceiceice> yeah that's what i figured
20141013 17:36:39< iceiceice> its up to you what if anything you want to do about this,
20141013 17:36:53< iceiceice> i dont think we have to do anything, its not clear to me theres a bug here
20141013 17:37:01< iceiceice> and i figured we wouldn't have time
20141013 17:37:37< fabi_> indeed
20141013 17:37:45< iceiceice> i think whenever there's a ui change, there will be some people who don't like it
20141013 17:37:47< fabi_> It is more like a political problem.
20141013 17:38:00< fabi_> I feel that the current solution is a pain in the ass.
20141013 17:38:16< fabi_> That is why I searched for alternatives for a long time.
20141013 17:38:48< fabi_> The old implementation sucks because it produces a growing gui element that is unpredictable in size.
20141013 17:40:11< fabi_> That is why the old editor (1.10) is broken for smaller resolutions. Resolutions we still aim to support. (I wouldn't support editor resolutions below 1024x768. It is okay to play Wesnoth at 800x480 but editing the maps shouldn't be necessary on such devices).
20141013 17:40:51< fabi_> Every other idea didn't make it for some reasons.
20141013 17:41:31< fabi_> The toplevel editor group that owns all groups would be easy to do and I think it should work well.
20141013 17:41:58< fabi_> But some developers felt it would be a hack and a strange solution. (It is mentioned in the forum thread)
20141013 17:43:19< fabi_> I requested a new gui2 widget, one that works with a single click. The single click solution was denied because "nothing else in Wesnoth behaves so". Also the new gui2 widget did not make it into the code base in time.
20141013 17:47:54< fabi_> Too make it short, I am frustrated. I wished I had never touched the editor at all and could back away from development more easily. 
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20141013 17:56:40< iceiceice> i see
20141013 17:56:45< iceiceice> i didn't think about the unbounded size issue with the old version
20141013 17:57:23< iceiceice> i think you added a bunch of nice features to the editor, if you don't want to mess around with it more i dont see why you should
20141013 17:57:50< iceiceice> i have to go, i will be back later
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20141013 18:00:02< irker651> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master a50fe9d1145e / .travis.yml: use gcc 4.9 instead of 4.8 on travis http://git.io/QuEe3w
20141013 18:00:04< irker651> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 978d05701f21 / / (23 files in 18 dirs): Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth http://git.io/U4cPHQ
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20141013 18:18:57< irker651> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 6bfb68aaa074 / .travis.yml: add missing -qq to travis script http://git.io/erArnQ
20141013 18:24:25< irker651> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 4903aca9f058 / .travis.yml: revert prev two commits, go back to gcc 4.8 http://git.io/V8bowg
20141013 18:27:34< iceiceice> gfgtdf: i tried to upgrade travis to gcc 4.9, but it looks like its not easily available from the ubuntu PPA's, for the version of ubuntu travis is running
20141013 18:27:55< iceiceice> although i'm looking at this now, now its clang that's failing?
20141013 18:27:56< iceiceice> https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/jobs/37844981
20141013 18:28:02< iceiceice> i thought it was gcc before...
20141013 18:28:18< iceiceice> maybe travis is just unstable right now for some reason
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20141013 18:35:35< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#4207 (master - 978d057 : Chris Beck): The build has errored.
20141013 18:35:35< travis-ci> Build details : http://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/37852508
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20141013 18:53:25< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#4208 (master - 6bfb68a : Chris Beck): The build has errored.
20141013 18:53:25< travis-ci> Build details : http://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/37853983
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20141013 18:57:12< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i rebased on master and then force puhed and it seems like the problem is gone.
20141013 18:57:33< gfgtdf> iceiceice: yes it was gcc before
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20141013 19:33:32< mattsc> hi fabi_ 
20141013 19:33:40< fabi_> hi mattsc
20141013 19:33:43< mattsc> Did you get the AI problem figured out?
20141013 19:33:53< fabi_> I think it is not really important.
20141013 19:34:12< fabi_> I figured that the AI is not moving some Units out of the castle in some circumstances.
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20141013 19:34:30< fabi_> The result is not that damaging to be investigated ow.
20141013 19:34:34< fabi_> s/ow/now.
20141013 19:34:56< mattsc> okay - did you see what I wrote about why this (probably) is happening?
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20141013 19:37:19< mattsc> hi bumbadadabum: you told me to ping you again on Monday (but I think you started already working on the maps anyway)
20141013 19:37:31< bumbadadabum> yeah I was
20141013 19:37:38< bumbadadabum> until I saw I forgot about another assignment
20141013 19:37:50< bumbadadabum> what is it other than the last few ones?
20141013 19:38:02< mattsc> I see
20141013 19:38:22< mattsc> I think those are it (or at least all I know about)
20141013 19:39:06< mattsc> bumbadadabum: anything you need/want help with?
20141013 19:39:15< bumbadadabum> uhh
20141013 19:39:20< bumbadadabum> well I need to git pull
20141013 19:39:32< bumbadadabum> and get an update of anything that changed in the past half a year
20141013 19:39:48< bumbadadabum> oh wait I need to clone
20141013 19:39:52< bumbadadabum> still using wesnoth-old
20141013 19:39:55< bumbadadabum> wait do I?
20141013 19:40:30< mattsc> no, you don’t; there’s a way to renamy things.  shadowm posted somewhere how to do that, but I forgot where.
20141013 19:40:47< mattsc> *rename
20141013 19:41:52< mattsc> But Google’s your friend for things like this:  https://www.mail-archive.com/wesnoth-dev@gna.org/msg04656.html
20141013 19:42:37< mattsc> bumbadadabum: ^
20141013 19:43:26< bumbadadabum> thanks
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20141013 19:45:27< fabi_> mattsc: No, I missed that.
20141013 19:47:01< bumbadadabum> Checking for Boost system library... no
20141013 19:47:01< bumbadadabum> Checking for Boost asio library... no
20141013 19:47:05< bumbadadabum> what package is that in?
20141013 19:47:10< bumbadadabum> not in libboost-dev
20141013 19:47:30< mattsc> fabi_: the AI never moves of units from the castle (at least not in the sense that that’s the purpose of the move)
20141013 19:47:54< fabi_> hmmm
20141013 19:47:59< mattsc> fabi_: it moves units toward goals/targets; if there are no goals, the units will just sit there
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20141013 19:48:24< mattsc> default goals are: enemy leaders and villages (for sides that have a leader)
20141013 19:48:41< fabi_> mattsc: I would like to commit a new version of LoW 14 soon.
20141013 19:48:41< mattsc> or you can set anything as a goal by using [goal] tags
20141013 19:48:50< fabi_> mattsc: Would you like to have a look at it?
20141013 19:48:56< mattsc> fabi_: that would be great
20141013 19:49:23< mattsc> fabi_: I’ll have a look, but I’m not sure if I can do much useful testing without a valud start-of-scenario save
20141013 19:49:31< fabi_> Yes
20141013 19:49:34< fabi_> I know.
20141013 19:49:55< fabi_> I need a group of people willing to playtest the MP part with me together.
20141013 19:50:06< fabi_> That will also bring the SP campaign on track.
20141013 19:50:59< mattsc> fabi_: I can’t help with that (my schedule just usually doesn’t allow me to be available for the contiguous amounts of time needed for that)
20141013 19:51:14< mattsc> But I’d be happy to look at the scenario itself; and at the SP version
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20141013 19:51:42< mattsc> fabi_: I think if you post this on the forums, you’ll likely be able to get a couple people together though
20141013 19:53:06< mattsc> or on the MP server itself; or on #wesnoth;  idk
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20141013 19:58:01< loonycyborg> bumbadadabum: iirc libboost-dev-all will get them all
20141013 20:07:22< bumbadadabum> ty
20141013 20:07:44< bumbadadabum> E: Kan pakket libboost-dev-all niet vinden
20141013 20:07:49< bumbadadabum> can't find it :(
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20141013 20:10:49< irker651> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth:1.12 135d616631a2 / data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/maps/14_Human_Alliance.map: LoW 14: Made the map a square. http://git.io/K3POgg
20141013 20:10:51< irker651> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth:1.12 e5d21a7658c5 / data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/maps/14_Human_Alliance.map: LoW 14: Map changes. http://git.io/yoUbOQ
20141013 20:10:53< irker651> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth:1.12 e423476f4d12 / data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/utils/characters.cfg: Remove side specific attributes from characters. http://git.io/9leB9g
20141013 20:10:55< irker651> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth:1.12 a74f3301947c / data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/maps/04_The_Elvish_Treasury.map: LoW 4: Bigger Castle for Cleodil. http://git.io/eFuIIg
20141013 20:10:57< irker651> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth:1.12 00ca53558119 / data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/chapter2/07_Elves_Last_Stand.cfg: LoW 07: Fix the starting position of "Eradion". http://git.io/ClZ-NQ
20141013 20:10:59< irker651> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth:1.12 4e467600138c / data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/chapter3/12_Revelations.cfg: LoW 12 MP: Let the campaign propagate to 13 instead of ending in MP. http://git.io/xZlaBw
20141013 20:11:01< irker651> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth:1.12 c1c349a70166 / data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/_main.cfg: LoW MP: Enable the 4th chapter. http://git.io/Fd2QBA
20141013 20:11:03< irker651> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth:1.12 a47b7e87e3ad / data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/chapter4/14_Human_Alliance.cfg: LoW 14: Introduced new sides for the players. http://git.io/uBpOlQ
20141013 20:11:05< irker651> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth:1.12 04faf1d73560 / data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/chapter4/13_News_from_the_Front.cfg: LoW 13: Just some cosmetic changes. http://git.io/6UtPZg
20141013 20:11:11< fabi_> mattsc: ^
20141013 20:13:15< mattsc> fabi_: thanks; I’ll have a look at it in a little while
20141013 20:13:47< mattsc> shadowm: closed a few bugs that were marked as RFT after talking to iceiceice
20141013 20:14:27< mattsc> shadowm: what about #20193?  It’s marked as fixed but not closed.
20141013 20:17:55< fabi_> mattsc: The change to 14 gives an easy setup with every side on the field at scenario start. It reuses the persistant sides from 3 and 7 again which makes a lot sense story and atmosphere wise. The only thing to balance should be the amount of gold the enemy side comes with and the ownership of the villages.
20141013 20:18:10< fabi_> There are no more tomato surprise in the scenario left.
20141013 20:18:30< fabi_> Neither side is getting any reenforcement the player does not know of from the beginning.
20141013 20:23:14< mattsc> fabi_: sounds great - FMI, does that fix all the bugs listed in the 1.11.17 announcement?
20141013 20:24:01< mattsc> all the LoW bugs, I mean
20141013 20:24:30< fabi_> mattsc: None of them.
20141013 20:24:44< fabi_> oddly shifted is still there
20141013 20:24:59< fabi_> olurf not something is still there
20141013 20:25:20< fabi_> human alliance is broken for mp mode was fixed before so the announcement is wrong on that.
20141013 20:25:30< fabi_> human alliance is not balanced at all now.
20141013 20:26:18< mattsc> well, it can’t be a lot more unbalanced than it was before  ;)
20141013 20:26:40< mattsc> I have to be off.  I’ll check back later.
20141013 20:28:22< mattsc> fabi_: btw, human alliance being broken in MP is marked as postponed, not fixed in the bug tracker with the comment by you that chapters 4 and 5 are disabled.
20141013 20:28:46< mattsc> one of your commits up there says that you enabled chapter 4 …
20141013 20:28:51< mattsc> that’s why I was asking
20141013 20:29:34< fabi_> Yeah, it does not make any sense to repair LoW 14 and then not enable chapter4.
20141013 20:29:59< fabi_> oh
20141013 20:30:01< mattsc> right, but it does not sound like that bug was actually fixed.
20141013 20:30:06< mattsc> okay, got to run ...
20141013 20:30:07< mattsc> ttyl
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20141013 21:22:10< iceiceice> ancestral: do you consider bug #20101 to be fixed?
20141013 21:28:35< ancestral> iceiceice: I keep clicking bug links here and forget it takes me to an (empty) chat room
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20141013 21:29:29< ancestral> I remember this one
20141013 21:29:40< ancestral> I wrote it with a slightly terse tone at the time…
20141013 21:31:47< ancestral> iceiceice: I would say no. Either the hot key needs to be changed, planning mode needs to be disabled or there needs ot be a banner saying 
20141013 21:31:51< ancestral> how to escape planning mode
20141013 21:32:10< ancestral> It’s far too easy to accidentally enter planning mode without knowing how
20141013 21:32:11< iceiceice> there is a banner now
20141013 21:32:17< iceiceice> in 1.12 anyways
20141013 21:32:20< ancestral> Right, and htat’s good except
20141013 21:32:23< ancestral> How do I exit planning mode?
20141013 21:32:33< iceiceice> i think it tells you
20141013 21:32:47< ancestral> (If I was typing a message to someone and forgot to press ‘m’, who knows what letter in my sentence activated it)
20141013 21:33:00< ancestral> iceiceice: If that is the case, then that’s great, and the issue can be closed
20141013 21:33:13< iceiceice> i have to check, i might be confused with the ctrl+a hotkey
20141013 21:33:31< iceiceice> but i think fabi set up a system where it will find the string for the hotkey and print (press XXX to en/disable
20141013 21:33:32< iceiceice> )
20141013 21:34:39< ancestral> My major gripe is it’s too easy to turn on accidentally
20141013 21:34:50< ancestral> And too hard to exit
20141013 21:35:27< ancestral> (It’s too hard if you didn’t know what key turned it on in the first place ;-) )
20141013 21:35:38< ancestral> iceiceice: Thanks for asking me before just choosing to close the bug
20141013 21:35:45< ancestral> as someone could have done
20141013 21:39:10< iceiceice> yeah np,
20141013 21:39:16< iceiceice> i like your idea to disable planning mode in the tutorial
20141013 21:39:27< iceiceice> i think that's probably not too difficult...
20141013 21:42:54< iceiceice> actually i guess that wasn't your post, i was confused
20141013 21:42:57< iceiceice> https://gna.org/bugs/?19223
20141013 21:42:58< iceiceice> still
20141013 21:48:10< ancestral> Oh
20141013 21:48:24< ancestral> That’s a thought, teach planning mode in the tutorial
20141013 21:48:41< ancestral> Might as well
20141013 21:49:47< ancestral> iceiceice: Wait, did you just close 20101?
20141013 21:49:53< iceiceice> yes just now
20141013 21:50:07< ancestral> When you enable planning mode, does it in fact say how to disable it?
20141013 21:50:10< iceiceice> yes
20141013 21:50:33< ancestral> Do you mind sharing a screenshot of it? :)
20141013 21:51:25< iceiceice> actually i think mattsc might have done so yesterday
20141013 21:51:51< iceiceice> oh its not exactly the same,
20141013 21:52:05< iceiceice> it looks kind of like this: http://imgur.com/Fc5Stvw
20141013 21:52:26< shadowm> vultraz: You are not supposed to download it.
20141013 21:52:41< shadowm> I mean, that's what your browser does anyway in order to render pages and... gods.
20141013 21:53:20< ancestral> iceiceice: Great
20141013 21:53:26< ancestral> Is it Command+a now?
20141013 21:53:36< iceiceice> no, thats the accelerated speed one
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20141013 21:53:37< ancestral> Ohhhh you’re sneaky
20141013 21:53:39< iceiceice> i have it personally set on p
20141013 21:53:47< shadowm> mattsc, bumbadadabum: The old repository URI continues to work too because GitHub is nice like that.
20141013 21:53:50< iceiceice> i dont know if its ctrl-p for default or not
20141013 21:54:01< ancestral> iceiceice: I was hoping for the actual screenshot
20141013 21:54:06< ancestral> You know, like a unit test
20141013 21:54:11< shadowm> You only need to change the URI if the redirection notice bothers you.
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20141013 21:54:32< ancestral> iceiceice: If you’re busy, don’t worry about it, I’ll take your word for it ;-)
20141013 21:54:37< iceiceice> ok thanks :)
20141013 21:54:38< shadowm> mattsc: By "closed" I assume you mean "marked as Fixed and closed"?
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20141013 21:55:30< shadowm> mattsc: Because it's not obvious from the bug report whether it's only fixed in master or not. (#20193)
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20141013 21:58:34< ancestral> shadowm: You know what would be great? If shikadibot or some other bot repeated the actual bug link after someone types #[\d]+
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20141013 21:59:28< ancestral> My IRC client likes to turn those into links to chat rooms
20141013 21:59:39< shadowm> ancestral: Yeah, imagine if the bots spammed links every time I said #20815.
20141013 21:59:59< ancestral> Would that happen all the time? Wouldn’t that be convenient?
20141013 22:00:03< shadowm> mattsc, iceiceice: Re #20815, by the way, I haven't heard from upstream yet.
20141013 22:00:21< shadowm> I'd like to know what they think about it before deciding what to do in Wesnoth.
20141013 22:00:42 * ancestral shrugs
20141013 22:00:48< mattsc> iceiceice, ancestral: it looks like this: http://imgur.com/eeUbbpx
20141013 22:00:50< mattsc> :(
20141013 22:00:57< ancestral> Yuck!
20141013 22:01:04< ancestral> Bug not fixed!
20141013 22:01:07< ancestral> :-P
20141013 22:01:14< iceiceice> shoot
20141013 22:01:23< mattsc> same problem that was just fixed for accelerated speed ...
20141013 22:01:26< iceiceice> i think i need to do the same thing for that one that i did for accelerated
20141013 22:01:27< iceiceice> yeah ok
20141013 22:01:30< iceiceice> one sec...
20141013 22:01:47< ancestral> Unit tests… unit tests… ;-)
20141013 22:01:56< mattsc> shadowm: thanks - I have the upstream bug report bookmarked and check it out from time to time (although I have not done so yet today)
20141013 22:03:19< mattsc> shadowm: and #20193 was already marked as fixed - I did not do that; I assume AI0867 did it
20141013 22:05:22< shadowm> I am aware.
20141013 22:05:48< shadowm> There's a big "History" link at the bottom that shows who did what.
20141013 22:05:52< mattsc> okay, good (I was actually wondering whether I had done it, but …
20141013 22:06:13< mattsc> yes exactly ( … but I just found that big “History" link at the bottom that shows who did what.)
20141013 22:06:38< mattsc> Funny that I had never seen that before   (bang head into wall)
20141013 22:07:33< iceiceice> mattsc: join the club, my wall has a big hole in it which i have labeled with a sharpie "gna"
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20141013 22:11:05< shadowm> With some luck Savane would've won a usability contest back in 1996, but definitely not in this age.
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20141013 22:11:55< irker651> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:1.12 b8ca750d4bfe / src/playsingle_controller.cpp: fix another instance of "overlapping messages", for planning mode http://git.io/e1PlcQ
20141013 22:11:57< irker651> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:1.12 062e6de9ae29 / changelog: update changelog http://git.io/pfIF_g
20141013 22:16:32< mattsc> ancestral, iceiceice: http://imgur.com/4fo7nye
20141013 22:16:53< ancestral> Looks good to me
20141013 22:17:21< ancestral> I *still* think ‘p’ is a bad hotkey for that, but I realize I’m in the minority
20141013 22:17:34< iceiceice> man the syntax for the hotkey code is really freaking awkward...
20141013 22:17:37< iceiceice> "hotkey::hotkey_command::get_command_by_command(hotkey::HOTKEY_WB_TOGGLE).command"
20141013 22:17:47< mattsc> fabi_: how far back does one have to go to test the changes to LoW-S14 in SP?  At least to S3, right?
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20141013 22:18:59< irker651> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 19878fa9e993 / src/playsingle_controller.cpp: fix another instance of "overlapping messages", for planning mode http://git.io/Cw9jGw
20141013 22:19:01< irker651> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 286bd28415d9 / changelog: update changelog http://git.io/bOrqdg
20141013 22:20:36< fabi_> mattsc: I am not sure.
20141013 22:20:51< mattsc> fabi_: I have a couple people who I might be able to motivate to play through the campaign to test out the balancing, but I don’t know if they can cover 12 scenarios by next week Friday ...
20141013 22:21:28< mattsc> I myself cannot, that’s for sure.
20141013 22:21:40< mattsc> fabi_: should I try to contact them?
20141013 22:21:49< fabi_> mattsc: yes. please.
20141013 22:22:06< fabi_> mattsc: But they need to use git.
20141013 22:22:27< mattsc> fabi_: what do I tell them where they should start if they have recent playthroughs?
20141013 22:22:47< mattsc> fabi_: I can make the campaign available to them by other means ...
20141013 22:23:03< mattsc> if they don’t know how to use git, I mean
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20141013 22:24:58< fabi_> mattsc: Tell them to start from scratch and play the MP port together.
20141013 22:25:25< shadowm> I would like to playtest LoW (last time I got to Elves’ Last Stand on 1.11.9+dev) but I can't commit to it, sadly.
20141013 22:25:36< mattsc> fabi_: that means they have to be online together etc.  It’s unrealistic to expect them to have the time for that on such short notice
20141013 22:25:58< mattsc> shadowm: yes, same here in principle
20141013 22:31:34< ancestral> What it you paid people?
20141013 22:31:36< ancestral> *if
20141013 22:31:41< iceiceice>  fwiw, about 6 months ago gfgtdf and i were actively trying to debug mp campaign stuff, mostly using LoW as the test case
20141013 22:31:47< ancestral> amirite there are some funds around?
20141013 22:31:56< iceiceice> i'm pretty sure you dont encounter any blockers until scenario 14
20141013 22:31:58< shadowm> I wonder if anybody uses column sorting in the Load Game dialog.
20141013 22:32:00< iceiceice> unless it changed since then
20141013 22:32:14< shadowm> I'm not asking because I plan to drive a steamroller over it or anything.
20141013 22:32:42< iceiceice> (shadowm jingles the keys to his steamroller)
20141013 22:33:30< mattsc> fabi_: did you change the way how sides are carried over from scenario 3 and 7?
20141013 22:33:51< fabi_> mattsc: no
20141013 22:34:23< mattsc> fabi_:  ‘no’ to which part of the question?  ;)
20141013 22:34:36 * shadowm is considering options for managing save subfolders, might need to remove some clutter from the dialog. Not committing to it right now, though.
20141013 22:34:37< mattsc> fabi_: neber mind, sorry
20141013 22:35:05< fabi_> shadowm: sounds like a good idea
20141013 22:35:07< mattsc> fabi_: I thought I had added a second part to the question; I’m getting senile, it appears
20141013 22:35:38< mattsc> fabi_: so if somebody had an S13 replay from, say, June this year, they could use that?
20141013 22:37:22< fabi_> yes
20141013 22:37:26< mattsc> fabi_: because there’s for example, a replay of the scenario from June 29 here:  http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=35988&start=30#p572581
20141013 22:37:48< mattsc> cool, that’s much easier than I thought then …
20141013 22:38:24< mattsc> fabi_: I thought we need to replay starting from S3, because otherwise the allied sides wouldn’t carry over correctly.
20141013 22:38:52< fabi_> mattsc: I am not sure. Let me load this thing
20141013 22:40:44< fabi_> mattsc: Can you transform a replay into a before start savefile?
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20141013 22:45:45< gfgtdf> fabi_: for the scenario that is replayed ot for the next scenario ?
20141013 22:46:03< gfgtdf> or*
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20141013 22:48:28-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@f054052176.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91 [Firefox 32.0.3/20140923175406]]
20141013 22:48:42< fabi_> mattsc: It seems like the sides of 3 and 7 did not make it through the scenarios.
20141013 22:49:47< mattsc> fabi_: that’s what I was afraid of  :(
20141013 22:50:00< mattsc> gfgtdf: for the scenario that is being replayed
20141013 22:50:07< irker651> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle glamdrol:master cd3337268d5d / glamdrol/ico.png: New favicon from LordBob http://git.io/mcYlKA
20141013 22:52:44< mattsc> fabi_: are you sure that they will make it through in the new version?
20141013 22:53:08< mattsc> I’d hate to ask somebody to play 13 scenarios just to tell them, oops, you have to do it all again...
20141013 22:53:41-!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@anderith.bouah.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20141013 22:54:01< ancestral> Hmm
20141013 22:54:01< fabi_> mattsc: I got it fixed.
20141013 22:54:13< fabi_> mattsc: The recall list is working now.
20141013 22:54:15< ancestral> shadowm: No 32x32 version?
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20141013 22:54:30< fabi_> mattsc: But that is only the half of the problem.
20141013 22:54:52< fabi_> mattsc: The side comes with only 100 Gold. I guess there is something wrong with the carryover system.
20141013 22:54:55< shadowm> ancestral: No.
20141013 22:55:22< ancestral> Many browsers are using 32x32 icons
20141013 22:56:01< shadowm> The closest I have is 64x64.
20141013 22:56:06< mattsc> fabi_: hmm
20141013 22:56:16< iceiceice> has anyone reproduced this bug recently? https://gna.org/bugs/?21284
20141013 22:56:16< shadowm> !file /icons/wesnoth-icon.png
20141013 22:56:16< shikadibot> shadowm: Web interface URL to file icons/wesnoth-icon.png: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/icons/wesnoth-icon.png
20141013 22:56:19< iceiceice> i think we should close it maybe
20141013 22:57:31-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20141013 22:57:32< mattsc> iceiceice: beetlenaut is very responsive on the forums; I bet he’ll reply to a PM in no time
20141013 22:57:59< iceiceice> i'm going to try to reproduce it first, if i cant i guess i'll do that
20141013 22:58:31-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20141013 22:59:31< mattsc> iceiceice: and since you seem to be going through bugs at the moment, you can skip #18269
20141013 22:59:54< mattsc> I’ve tried to reproduce it, failed, and contacted Bob_t_M, who will have a look into it and get back to me
20141013 23:00:33< iceiceice> ok
20141013 23:00:35< iceiceice> i'll be back later
20141013 23:01:04< iceiceice> it looks fixed to me
20141013 23:01:22< mattsc> sounds good; just close it then
20141013 23:01:42< fabi_> mattsc: I think the gold carryover only works when there is no scenario in the line where the side in question is not taking place.
20141013 23:02:12< mattsc> fabi_: no, that’s not generally the case (at least it didn’t use to be that way)
20141013 23:02:30< fabi_> mattsc: ?
20141013 23:02:43< mattsc> fabi_: I have sides in my campaign that are active, disappear for some scenarios, and then come back with the correct carryover
20141013 23:02:52< fabi_> okay
20141013 23:03:04< shadowm> I do as well.
20141013 23:04:40< fabi_> Okay, then gold=0 is indeed the result of Galtrid being broken when he left 7.
20141013 23:08:42< mattsc> fabi_: let me ask a provocative question: should we disable LoW for 1.12.0, and bring it back for 1.12.1 after we’ve had more time to work on it?
20141013 23:09:31< mattsc> on that time scale, I could very likely play through the entire campaign again
20141013 23:09:52< mattsc> I’m not saying that I am advocating this course of action, I am just asking
20141013 23:10:45< fabi_> I am fine with removing LoW from mainline.
20141013 23:11:05< fabi_> (Both, the SP and the MP part)
20141013 23:13:14< fabi_> mattsc: Anyway, it seems the savefile you found is pretty usable. I just give the side in question more Gold and you are ready to do some balancing and AI tweaking.
20141013 23:14:51< mattsc> fabi_: okay, thanks, I’ll have a look into it; but not today any more, it’s Thanksgiving here today and I have to leave and take part in the festivities soon.  
20141013 23:15:05< fabi_> I see.
20141013 23:15:50< mattsc> fabi_: as I have said before, I hate when real life interferes with my fantasy life, but c’est la vie.
20141013 23:17:15< iceiceice> hmm
20141013 23:18:11< iceiceice> ok, here's a hotkey bug that's at least new to me
20141013 23:18:15< iceiceice> 1.) open the game
20141013 23:18:22< iceiceice> 2.) go to preferences > general > hotkeys
20141013 23:18:29< iceiceice> 3.) clear the "execute action" hotkey
20141013 23:18:34< iceiceice> 4.) close the dialog
20141013 23:18:49< iceiceice> 5.) reopen the dialog. its hotkey value came back!
20141013 23:19:07< iceiceice> 6.) close the game and reopen. the hotkey didnt actually get cleared
20141013 23:25:53< iceiceice> hmm now i cant reproduce it...
20141013 23:26:14< iceiceice> i guess when i close the dialog with "esc" it cancels rather than saving my settings?
20141013 23:26:44< iceiceice> you learn something each day, glad i didn't make a bug report about this ;)
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20141013 23:34:47< shadowm> Yeah, the dialog has an OK and Cancel button unlike the main Preferences. Escape has always meant to, well, escape without applying changes, for dialogs where there is an option.
20141013 23:35:20< iceiceice> yep its quite intuitive :)
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--- Log closed Tue Oct 14 00:00:43 2014