--- Log opened Sat Oct 18 00:00:57 2014
20141018 00:10:42-!- happygrue [~Laptop@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20141018 00:14:53< vultraz> shadowm: sorry. I thought I was supposed to work on it
20141018 00:19:30-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20141018 00:20:15< shadowm> iceiceice, gfgtdf: .. is supposed to work with terrain graphics.
20141018 00:20:44< gfgtdf> shadowm: accorign to eth comment in the code that just a temporary solution
20141018 00:20:49< gfgtdf> the*
20141018 00:21:08< shadowm> Remember we didn't want to break WML in 1.13.x?
20141018 00:22:18< iceiceice> i think we didnt add this, AI0867 did
20141018 00:22:30< happygrue> shadowm: I live!  I am sorry not to have written anything.  I "fully intended to" every night this week... that's got to count for something? ;)
20141018 00:22:37< happygrue> perhaps $0.03 USD?
20141018 00:22:37< iceiceice> are you sure we should try to change it back?
20141018 00:23:42< shadowm> This is all I'm going to say on the matter: http://i.imgur.com/s9pYpNe.png
20141018 00:24:14< shadowm> happygrue: Do you think you could at least review the text I wrote?
20141018 00:25:06< happygrue> yeah, I am have read it, I'm looking to punch it up a bit.  How long an entry is ideal for something like this?  I could wax on or keep it short but just add a line or two
20141018 00:25:33-!- tomreyn [~tomreyn@megaglest/team/tomreyn] has quit [Quit: tomreyn]
20141018 00:25:36< shadowm> Probably not longer than the longest feature description paragraph we've got so far.
20141018 00:26:02< iceiceice> happygrue: quick question,
20141018 00:26:07< iceiceice> i was testing stuff on master,
20141018 00:26:15< iceiceice> i noticed that the khalifate cavalry still have high defense on forested hills?
20141018 00:26:19< shadowm> So I don't think you should worry about it unless you intend to dump the entire contents of the help system on it.
20141018 00:26:41< iceiceice> is that the way its supposed to be? i remember that being an unresolved question at some point
20141018 00:26:42< gfgtdf> ok i now renamed battle.ogg to b( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)ttle.ogg and accoringly in the .cfg and it worked too.
20141018 00:26:42< shadowm> vultraz might have his own opinion on the matter, though.
20141018 00:27:46< shadowm> Incidentally, I'd like to have this string-frozen tomorrow or this Sunday.
20141018 00:28:37< vultraz> shadowm: what am I looking at?
20141018 00:28:50< shadowm> Your IRC window.
20141018 00:29:14< shadowm> If you take a more careful look above you'll notice happygrue was declaring his intention to alter the text but hasn't done so yet.
20141018 00:29:25-!- Greg-Boggs-pnwds [~Rylar@173.240.246.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20141018 00:29:28< happygrue> iceiceice: it's the way it's going to be for now.  There was much back and forth about the terrian stuff, but basically we avoided changing anything at the request of UMC folks.  To be revisted in the next cycle...
20141018 00:30:01< iceiceice> ok, whatever you think is best
20141018 00:30:03< happygrue> Ideally, they would fare like other mounted units in forest
20141018 00:30:14< iceiceice> i mean that seems like a significant balance issue
20141018 00:30:30< happygrue> I don't think it's best... but the UMC folks were really, really not wanting any terrian change.
20141018 00:30:39< iceiceice> i think its not a terrain change,
20141018 00:30:50< happygrue> ah, I see what you're saying, yes
20141018 00:30:52< iceiceice> it just means you go into the unit and put -60 instead of 60 on forest or something
20141018 00:31:18< shadowm> gfgtdf: You probably should avoid using that particular string as a test case for FS stuff given that it contains combining characters. See <https://gna.org/bugs/?20815>.
20141018 00:31:34< happygrue> that and a number of other things will no doubt have to happen, but the thing is, until we see what happens with the rest of the terrian changes, I don't care about it too much
20141018 00:31:53< shadowm> gfgtdf: More specifically, avoid using it in the game UI.
20141018 00:32:59< iceiceice> you mean for 1.14 ?
20141018 00:33:29< gfgtdf> shadowm: do you say its ok if we only support "terrains/.." ?
20141018 00:33:31< gfgtdf> so*
20141018 00:33:34< happygrue> iceiceice: there are a number of things that I'd like to change, but at this point I'd rather get the feedback that will come from the exposure in 1.12 before messing with anything.
20141018 00:33:54< vultraz> shadowm: are you referring to string-freezing the announcement?
20141018 00:33:54< iceiceice> ok
20141018 00:34:13< shadowm> gfgtdf: "This is all I'm going to say on the matter: http://i.imgur.com/s9pYpNe.png"
20141018 00:34:22-!- ancestral [~ancestral@17.114.45.53] has quit [Quit: ancestral]
20141018 00:34:24< shadowm> That was meant literally.
20141018 00:34:31< shadowm> vultraz: Yes.
20141018 00:35:11< vultraz> Alright. What about the Contribute section you nicely reverted
20141018 00:35:17< vultraz> Are we adding it back?
20141018 00:35:53< shadowm> I've been busy these last few hours.
20141018 00:36:09< vultraz> I see
20141018 00:36:23< shadowm> Give me a few more hours to sort out some stuff before getting back to the announcement contents.
20141018 00:36:29< vultraz> Well, tell me when something is ready
20141018 00:37:29< shadowm> gfgtdf, iceiceice:  https://gist.github.com/shikadilord/03eddeed1ff02918553c  Again, do what you will with this information
20141018 00:37:59< iceiceice> shadowm: i think you need to use "\.\./" for the pattern or you get a bunch of noise
20141018 00:38:16< shadowm> fgrep is equivalent to grep -F.
20141018 00:39:00< iceiceice> oh
20141018 00:41:02< iceiceice> gfgtdf: whatever the issues are on jenkins right now with disk space or whatever,
20141018 00:41:09< iceiceice> it looks like 1.12 branch is building successfully: http://baldras.wesnoth.org:8080/job/Wesnoth/branch=1.12,compiler=mingw32,label=Gentoo-64/ws/
20141018 00:41:31< iceiceice> err although that was quite some time ago...
20141018 00:42:33< iceiceice> hmm nm
20141018 00:49:42< irker902> wesnoth: happygrue website:master 9183e101a074 / start/1.12/template.html: Expanded the Khalifate description. http://git.io/1_RsWw
20141018 00:50:01< happygrue> shadowm: vultraz iceiceice  how does that look?
20141018 00:50:59< vultraz> should be 'on hilly terrains'
20141018 00:51:11< happygrue> The overall annoucement looks great, btw.  Great work shadowm, et al.
20141018 00:51:22< vultraz> *cough*
20141018 00:51:41< loonycyborg> iceiceice: only some of builds failed
20141018 00:51:49< loonycyborg> debian mingw32 succeeded
20141018 00:52:08< loonycyborg> but it seems it doesn't want to open the dir with binaries anymore :P
20141018 00:53:06< loonycyborg> hmm
20141018 00:53:10< shadowm> happygrue: vultraz is coughing because you didn't mention him before 'et al'.
20141018 00:53:18< loonycyborg> no idea what suddenly happened to it
20141018 00:53:23< happygrue> vultraz: both seem fine to me, but I'll change it if someone else agrees that "on hilly terrains" is better
20141018 00:53:25< vultraz> Well you don't have to be so blunt about it
20141018 00:53:45< happygrue> I did vultraz , you are the lead "et al...er"
20141018 00:53:45< vultraz> happygrue: 'in hilly terrains' means they're literally inside the hills
20141018 00:54:02< happygrue> but it's not "in hilly terrianS"
20141018 00:54:05< shadowm> loonycyborg: Did it run of disk space?
20141018 00:54:08< happygrue> it's just "in hilly terrain"
20141018 00:54:11< shadowm> *out of
20141018 00:54:12< happygrue> which is fine, IMO
20141018 00:54:17< iceiceice> loonycyborg: it looks like jenkins has been some how stuck for 3 weeks,
20141018 00:54:22< vultraz> same difference
20141018 00:54:25< iceiceice> i cant see that any builds have occurred
20141018 00:54:32< iceiceice> since sept 25
20141018 00:54:36< shadowm> loonycyborg: I can increase the ct quota for any container you need, just give me the container number.
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20141018 00:54:52< loonycyborg> I'm looking into it
20141018 00:55:12< happygrue> well, I am not a gramer dude, so I will change it if someone else agrees it would be better, but I think it's fine as is?
20141018 00:55:21< happygrue> I speek gud nuff
20141018 00:55:39< loonycyborg> It can't launch slave agents on debian vms anymore
20141018 00:55:51< happygrue> in related news: the annoucement looks great, wonderful work vultraz et al.
20141018 00:56:03< happygrue> :P
20141018 00:56:10< loonycyborg> debug1: connect to address 192.168.1.33 port 22: No route to host
20141018 00:56:24< shadowm> Is that container #133?
20141018 00:56:32< shadowm> It's currently turned off for some reason.
20141018 00:56:40< shadowm> loonycyborg: Should I bring it up?
20141018 00:56:50< loonycyborg> better I'll do it myself
20141018 00:56:59< shadowm> It has start at boot disabled, that's why.
20141018 00:57:41< shadowm> A few weeks ago baldras had to be rebooted due to a problem with the datacenter IIRC.
20141018 00:59:01< happygrue> vultraz: my reluctance is only because I dislike the word "terrains" so I tried to avoid using it.  In all seriousness, is it worth changing?  I have to go in a few minutes.
20141018 00:59:17< loonycyborg> gentoo-64 vm run out of disk space indeed
20141018 00:59:24< vultraz> I believe 'on' is more grammatically correct
20141018 00:59:46< shadowm> I agree with vultraz.
20141018 00:59:52< loonycyborg> shadowm: vm 132
20141018 00:59:56< loonycyborg> that one is full
20141018 00:59:58< happygrue> okay, changing it.  Anything else or just that?
20141018 01:00:23 * vultraz checks again
20141018 01:00:31< iceiceice> ok i'm out for now, be back later
20141018 01:00:33< shadowm> loonycyborg: Well, I saw you issue the start command to #133. Can you also increase the disk quota yourself?
20141018 01:00:33-!- iceiceice [~chris@wesnoth/developer/iceiceice] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20141018 01:00:39< vultraz> add a comma after 'resistances'
20141018 01:00:58< loonycyborg> maybe.
20141018 01:00:58< vultraz> and change 'play' to 'play with'
20141018 01:01:01< loonycyborg> where do you do it?
20141018 01:01:04< shadowm> loonycyborg: Also, I've enabled start at boot for #133.
20141018 01:01:11< loonycyborg> cool
20141018 01:01:13< shadowm> loonycyborg: Resources tab.
20141018 01:01:17< vultraz> I think that's all
20141018 01:01:18< shadowm> For the container.
20141018 01:02:54< loonycyborg> I can it seems
20141018 01:03:50< loonycyborg> all slaves are online again
20141018 01:04:28< gfgtdf> shadowm: so we currently in wml have an alternative to "..\" to escape from "terrains\" ?
20141018 01:05:20< shadowm> gfgtdf: I don't know, in other contexts fully-qualified paths like "data/core/images/foo.png" work, I haven't checked with the terrain builder.
20141018 01:05:21< happygrue> okay.  And found a typo while doing it! (second sentence)
20141018 01:06:11< shadowm> I suspect it would produce something nonsensical there like "terrains/data/core/...".
20141018 01:07:29< shadowm> (In case you hadn't heard of it before, fully-qualified paths like "data/core/images/foo.png" or "data/add-ons/My_Addon/images/foo.png" are a valid alternative to the [binary_path] resource-based relative path syntax for images, music, and sounds.)
20141018 01:07:50< shadowm> (More specifically, it allows you to refer to a resource of a different type.)
20141018 01:14:10< shadowm> vultraz: Oh, also I reverted your (MY) changes because they were causing a local conflict with my stashed changes.
20141018 01:14:37< shadowm> In general, if I publish a diff and I don't specify, it's not intended for other random people to commit it.
20141018 01:15:00< gfgtdf> shadowm: so teh actual problem in teh code is that "terrain" is no type but just a subdirectory if the "images" type ?
20141018 01:15:08< irker902> wesnoth: happygrue website:master 42edd101fffa / start/1.12/template.html: Minor fixes to the Khalifate section http://git.io/R9X9Qg
20141018 01:15:26< gfgtdf> shadowm: s/if/in
20141018 01:15:39< shadowm> Yes.
20141018 01:15:52< shadowm> I mean, I guess you could put it that way.
20141018 01:21:20< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master 3f31952c2772 / start/1.12/ (js/westin.js styles/westin.css template.html): Add TOC bar below into, toggleable in JS, always visible w/out JS http://git.io/vBlxzw
20141018 01:23:48< vultraz> Dat stack
20141018 01:24:45< vultraz> Is there no way to reduce the stack
20141018 01:25:16< shadowm> ?
20141018 01:26:30< vultraz> You have 8 levels of indent
20141018 01:26:59< shadowm> Uh?
20141018 01:27:23< shadowm> You are complaining about deep indentation?
20141018 01:27:37< vultraz> Yes
20141018 01:27:53< vultraz> And the fact you have everything in <ul> and <li> for some reason
20141018 01:29:19< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master 3aee180c8f7d / start/1.12/ (js/westin.js template.html): Bring js back into template now that we don't gettextize <script> elements http://git.io/2jd7nw
20141018 01:29:26< shadowm> vultraz: Because it's a list.
20141018 01:29:57< vultraz> But why multiple child lists?
20141018 01:30:12< shadowm> Element tree.
20141018 01:30:21< shadowm> Section 1, section 1 subsection 1, etc.
20141018 01:30:29< shadowm> I mean come on.
20141018 01:31:11< vultraz> I see
20141018 01:31:24< vultraz> You duplicated the stack
20141018 01:31:35< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master 4bf92c046e33 / start/1.12/template.html: Content Developers -> Content Creators http://git.io/K-0PVQ
20141018 01:31:38< shadowm> What stack?
20141018 01:31:51< shadowm> It's not a stack, it's a tree, vultraz.
20141018 01:31:54< vultraz> section 1, subsection 1
20141018 01:31:56< vultraz> etc etc
20141018 01:33:04< shadowm> happygrue: "To play with this faction, select" -- this is manual language here.
20141018 01:33:29< shadowm> The release announcement is intended as an overview of new stuff, not a manual.
20141018 01:33:32< vultraz> I was going to mention that
20141018 01:33:54< vultraz> I prefer my version
20141018 01:37:18< happygrue> okay, change it back, by all means
20141018 01:37:32< shadowm> "Since their units feature unique movement and resistances, they will probably feel strange to play with at first." <- This feels unnecessary and even discouraging.
20141018 01:38:20< shadowm> "Khalifate units tend to be more expensive than those of the Loyalist faction, as well as highly mobile - especially on hilly terrains." <- This sounds a bit awkward because it starts mentioning a major disadvantage.
20141018 01:38:31< happygrue> sounds like a total revert then :D
20141018 01:38:37< shadowm> It could be reworded.
20141018 01:38:58< happygrue> it mentions a disadvantage then an advantage
20141018 01:39:00< shadowm> "specializes in using terrain features to coordinate attacks at dawn or dusk." I prefer your take on this, though.
20141018 01:39:03< happygrue> that seems balaned to me
20141018 01:39:39< happygrue> I wrote what I would want to read, though everybody would have a different take on what they would like to see
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20141018 01:40:21< shadowm> I tried to write the Khalifate passage in the most general way possible so as to not give fuel to the naysayers who won't even give it a try.
20141018 01:41:08< shadowm> People who don't understand how faction balance works and go "BAH DRAKES EXPENSIVE N WEAK 2 PIERCE THEIR USELES".
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20141018 01:41:16< iceiceice> fabi:
20141018 01:41:20-!- iceiceice [~chris@192.16.204.74] has quit [Changing host]
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20141018 01:41:20< iceiceice> from editor text from help tool:
20141018 01:41:46< iceiceice> "The paint tool utilizises the brushes and the terrain palette."
20141018 01:42:03< shadowm> So if we go and mention they are more expensive than loyalists, they'll go "UR MUSLIM FACTION SUX BRING BACK LOYLISTS1!!"
20141018 01:43:43< iceiceice> 1. the word should be utilizes, 2. maybe just "uses"?
20141018 01:43:45 * iceiceice poof
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20141018 01:43:50< happygrue> yeah, I can see the appeal of keeping it very minimalist
20141018 01:44:26< happygrue> well, chopping out those sentences and leaving anything that you like is fine with me, have at it.
20141018 01:47:11< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master bcc39028f50a / start/1.12/template.html: Move TOC javascript up where it belongs http://git.io/53-QoQ
20141018 01:52:00< vultraz> lololololol
20141018 01:53:56< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master c16857647df5 / start/1.12/styles/westin.css: I can't be bothered to make the TOC work on small screens right now http://git.io/n7rCCg
20141018 01:59:37< vultraz> shadowm: how's this sound?
20141018 01:59:39< vultraz> "This series sees the introduction of a new playable faction in multiplayer games, the Khalifate. Available in game setup to use via the “Default + Khalifate” era, this faction of humans lacks magic users, and instead specializes in using terrain features to coordinate attacks at dawn or dusk. Their ranks boast lawful and liminal units, healers and high-accuracy melee fighters, and fearsome...
20141018 01:59:41< vultraz> ...horse-mounted archers. While Khalifate units tend to be more expensive than those of the Loyalist faction, they make up for this with high mobility - especially on hilly terrains."
20141018 02:09:42< shadowm> I guess that works.
20141018 02:10:03< gfgtdf> do you also have the problem that in current master you get to the the mp connect dialog after every scenario in a sp campaign ?
20141018 02:10:20< shadowm> !wss
20141018 02:10:20< shikadibot> shadowm: DNS: Online  Web: Online  Forums: Offline  Wiki: Online  Add-ons: Online  MP #1: Online  MP #2: Online  MP #3: Online
20141018 02:10:23< shikadibot> shadowm: Last updated: 1 minute ago  <http://status.wesnoth.org/>
20141018 02:10:26< shadowm> What now.
20141018 02:11:16< irker902> wesnoth: Charles Dang website:master 8b50b5047835 / start/1.12/template.html: Tweaked the Khalifate description again http://git.io/k71nmA
20141018 02:12:20< shadowm> vultraz: Could've replaced the hyphen-minus while at it.
20141018 02:14:05< vultraz> em dash, right?
20141018 02:14:41< shadowm> Yes.
20141018 02:15:16< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master 5cd6c3d3a327 / start/1.12/template.html: Make it so the URL bar reflects the new position after smooth scrolling http://git.io/_4vxBA
20141018 02:17:02< irker902> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master e3818c2843d8 / src/filesystem_boost.cpp: reenable ".." in get_binary_file_location http://git.io/DZo1Gw
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20141018 02:18:07< irker902> wesnoth: Charles Dang website:master 0fc9f6296498 / start/1.12/template.html: Converted stray hyphen minus to em dash http://git.io/Xh_Ysg
20141018 02:18:09< irker902> wesnoth: Charles Dang website:master 09058b802eec / start/1.12/template.html: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:wesnoth/website http://git.io/iA0PYw
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20141018 02:18:45< shadowm> !time utc
20141018 02:18:46< shikadibot> shadowm: The current time (UTC) is Sat Oct 18 02:18:45 2014.
20141018 02:19:39< shadowm> Stupid units.w.o.
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20141018 02:37:15< shadowm> mattsc: Yeah, the TOC is one of those "oh that would be so cooooooool" ideas programmers tend to come up with.
20141018 02:37:38< shadowm> Then they/others use it and it's suddenly entirely not cool at all.
20141018 02:37:55< mattsc> yeah
20141018 02:38:34< shadowm> This is why businesses usually have well-defined separate backend and frontend developer roles.
20141018 02:38:54< shadowm> And really successful business have dedicated UX experts at their service.
20141018 02:39:31< shadowm> *es
20141018 02:46:29< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master 34ca26e2e4c0 / start/1.12/ (styles/westin.css template.html): Hi TOC! Bye TOC! http://git.io/R8Um3A
20141018 02:50:47< mattsc> that’s so sad …
20141018 02:50:57< mattsc> but … agreed
20141018 02:51:24< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master 71c7b8bf84f2 / start/1.12/styles/westin.css: Merge content block rules, thus dropping an IE 6 workaround from Glamdrol http://git.io/9hsWNg
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20141018 03:08:12< travis-ci> gfgtdf/wesnoth-old#280 (master - e3818c2 : gfgtdf): The build passed.
20141018 03:08:12< travis-ci> Build details : http://travis-ci.org/gfgtdf/wesnoth-old/builds/38322996
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20141018 03:08:34< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master d8b2c90bfe70 / start/1.12/styles/westin.css: Drop redundant property http://git.io/LS_ncQ
20141018 03:08:37< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master 8c824288808d / start/1.12/styles/westin.css: Use transparent borders for thumbnail extents, not bg color borders http://git.io/Be7vsQ
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20141018 03:38:27< mattsc> shadowm: are you “just” the/a Spanish translator now, or also the Spanish translation maintainer?
20141018 03:39:53-!- iceiceice [~chris@wesnoth/developer/iceiceice] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20141018 03:40:29< shadowm> mattsc: The former.
20141018 03:41:09< mattsc> shadowm: alright; I am going to close PRs 271-274 then.  Otherwise I would have left it to you, that’s why I was asking.
20141018 03:42:41< shadowm> Have you prodded Espreon about them?
20141018 03:42:56< shadowm> Or told the author to contact the translation team?
20141018 03:43:42< mattsc> yes, I have contacted this author and the other author of a translation PR; the other one got back to me and closed the PR, this one did not.
20141018 03:44:18< mattsc> And no, I have not seen Espreon in ages
20141018 03:44:29< vultraz> He's on Skype daily
20141018 03:44:32< shadowm> He responds to email.
20141018 03:45:00< vultraz> he also hangs out in ##somedutchguy
20141018 03:45:10< shadowm> A troll channel, don't go there.
20141018 03:49:04< mattsc> alright
20141018 03:49:27 * shadowm gives po4a-gettextize a stern look of disapproval.
20141018 03:49:51< irker902> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:master 97c14266c4d4 / projectfiles/Xcode/Wesnoth.xcodeproj/project.pbxproj: Xcode project file: remove -DHAVE_GROWL from game_display.cpp http://git.io/6Y3y2A
20141018 03:50:56< mattsc> iceiceice: it did that ^ bit at least.  I won’t add the other file until I have time and energy to fix it.
20141018 03:52:00< iceiceice> i remember there was some person who talked about fixing it some time ago?
20141018 03:53:07< shadowm> Why is po4a's documentation so lacking in clear and exact statements? Ugh.
20141018 03:53:43< shadowm> And now I broke it. Good job.
20141018 03:55:57< shadowm> Grr.
20141018 03:57:37< iceiceice> mattsc: sounds good
20141018 03:58:46< iceiceice> hmm well jenkins is mostly back to normal now,
20141018 03:58:52< iceiceice> but it doesnt have the new master branch dependencies
20141018 03:59:02< iceiceice> so the mingw builds are still failing
20141018 03:59:54-!- happygrue [~Laptop@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20141018 04:01:51< shadowm>     msgid "</a>"
20141018 04:01:59 * shadowm 
20141018 04:02:51< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master ac82b3e45a85 / start/1.12/Makefile: Brute-force a proper lang attribute value into generated HTML files http://git.io/VRwytQ
20141018 04:02:54< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master 9e599a0f710e / start/1.12/ (54 files in 2 dirs): Regenerate catalogues and HTML files http://git.io/Ynn86w
20141018 04:04:24< vultraz> What are we doing about the contributions section
20141018 04:04:51< shadowm> Is that a question?
20141018 04:05:34< vultraz> ?
20141018 04:05:45< shadowm> 21:36:23 <shadowm> Give me a few more hours to sort out some stuff before getting back to the announcement contents.
20141018 04:06:21< vultraz> It has been three hours
20141018 04:06:46< shadowm> I'm sorry I've been busy with other stuff that matters too.
20141018 04:08:11< shadowm> vultraz: Could you fix the grammar in the Multiplayer section in the meantime? Someone edited the second paragraph previously and left a trail of missing articles.
20141018 04:08:51 * vultraz gets on it
20141018 04:09:13< ancestral> https://paste.ee/p/lMQXs
20141018 04:09:36< ancestral> The header always bothers me
20141018 04:09:57< shadowm> What is that?
20141018 04:10:15< shadowm> Adding a stylesheet from a site I've never heard of before.
20141018 04:10:29< ancestral> A bookmarklet
20141018 04:10:39< c74d> Ooh, another HTTPS pastebin.
20141018 04:10:51< ancestral> I tried looking for pastebin alternatives
20141018 04:11:30-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-108-67-218.adr01.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20141018 04:11:59< vultraz> shadowm: it was lipkab
20141018 04:12:03< shadowm> This breaks everything.
20141018 04:12:20< c74d> Eesh, it uses Adobe Flash.
20141018 04:12:30< ancestral> Oh/
20141018 04:13:00< shadowm> ancestral: http://i.imgur.com/eENGqUm.png
20141018 04:13:17< ancestral>  /facepalm
20141018 04:13:22< ancestral> I didn’t mean for that page
20141018 04:13:40< ancestral> Like… every other page except that one
20141018 04:13:59< shadowm> ...
20141018 04:14:11< ancestral> proof of concept
20141018 04:14:14< fabi> hi iceiceice
20141018 04:14:17 * vultraz rolls over laughing
20141018 04:14:19< iceiceice> hi fabi
20141018 04:14:31< fabi> All the commit is a stub
20141018 04:14:42< fabi> I hope to find some authors via the forums.
20141018 04:14:45< shadowm> Contact me about it again in 5 days, ancestral, kthx.
20141018 04:15:03< shadowm> I've got bigger fish to fry and I have a deadline hanging over my head.
20141018 04:15:13< ancestral> For sure…
20141018 04:15:52< mattsc> hi fabi
20141018 04:16:02< fabi> hi mattsc
20141018 04:16:27< iceiceice> fabi: i didnt follow your remark, what commits are stubs?
20141018 04:16:41< shadowm> Also, someone tell me why haven't we bought every single wesnoth domain ever.
20141018 04:17:03< ancestral> Don’t worry, I reserved one
20141018 04:17:57< ancestral> iir wesnoth.com has been cybersquat since forever
20141018 04:19:31< shadowm> shadowm@nanacore:~/src/wesnoth% git log --all --format=oneline | wc -l
20141018 04:19:31< shadowm> 63874
20141018 04:19:38< iceiceice> shadowm: since we apparently have unlimited domain name $$$, can i have a domain name for my birthday :D
20141018 04:19:47< fabi> iceiceice: All the editor help section. It is more a rough framework/document tree than a serious attempt. I hope to get external authors. One should never write the documentation to the own stuff. The German word for the problem is "Betriebsblindheit".
20141018 04:20:06< iceiceice> hehe
20141018 04:20:08< iceiceice> thats quite a theory
20141018 04:20:18< iceiceice> i was told in highschool we must comment every line of code
20141018 04:20:24< shadowm> shadowm@nanacore:~/src/wesnoth% git log --all --format=format:%ce | sort -u | wc -l
20141018 04:20:27< shadowm> 195
20141018 04:20:34< shadowm> vultraz: Think we should mention these figures?
20141018 04:20:36< iceiceice> i guess code comment and docs is not the same
20141018 04:20:45< vultraz> shadowm: what?
20141018 04:20:47< vultraz> figures of what
20141018 04:20:52< shadowm> vultraz: See above.
20141018 04:21:43-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-108-67-218.adr01.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20141018 04:22:22< vultraz> shadowm: I don't know what got log you're looking at
20141018 04:22:25< fabi> iceiceice: This is not about code documentation. It is about a user manual.
20141018 04:22:42< shadowm> vultraz: `git log --all --format=oneline | wc -l` is the number of commits in all branches.
20141018 04:22:43< iceiceice> yeah i see what you mean
20141018 04:22:57< iceiceice> how does "Betriebsblindheit" translate literally?
20141018 04:23:03< vultraz> Ok, mention them where?
20141018 04:23:04< shadowm> vultraz: `git log --all --format=format:%ce | sort -u | wc -l` is the number of (purportedly) unique committer email addresses.
20141018 04:23:11< vultraz> Oh
20141018 04:23:14< vultraz> Ahhhh
20141018 04:23:16< vultraz> Yes
20141018 04:23:31< shadowm> Although it's actually less than I expected.
20141018 04:23:41< vultraz> But approximately 
20141018 04:23:49< shadowm> Also, the committers count leaves out dozens and dozens of artists and hundreds of translators.
20141018 04:23:53< shadowm> Hm.
20141018 04:23:57< vultraz> "over 60,000 commits by near 200 people"
20141018 04:24:09< shadowm> OK, on second thought, no.
20141018 04:24:14< vultraz> ok
20141018 04:24:19< iceiceice> shadowm: do artists appear in about.cpp?
20141018 04:24:24< iceiceice> i would think they should right?
20141018 04:24:33< iceiceice> and all the translators?
20141018 04:24:41< iceiceice> *about.cfg
20141018 04:24:41< shadowm> about.cpp last had a credits list in version 1.1.x I think.
20141018 04:24:47< shadowm> Yes.
20141018 04:29:22< vultraz> "A new feature implemented allows add-ons to add their configuration options as well on the second screen." 
20141018 04:29:29< vultraz> does this refer to mp modifications?
20141018 04:29:45< shadowm> I believe it's a feature that complements mods.
20141018 04:30:32 * shadowm hits wesnoth.org with a crowbar.
20141018 04:30:50< shadowm> vultraz: Second item in <http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=38015>.
20141018 04:31:10< shadowm> Note the second-to-last sentence says "modifications, era, or scenario (sic".
20141018 04:31:36< vultraz> ok
20141018 04:35:19< vultraz> "Multiplayer game creation has been redesigned and split into two screens. The first is responsible for game creation and era and modification selection, while the second allows for additional configuration. New functionality to allow user-made add-ons to display custom configuration options on the latter screen has been added. In addition, all multiplayer screens were improved to take the...
20141018 04:35:20< vultraz> ...new changes to multiplayer campaigns into account and to increase the visibility of relevant information, as well as adjusted to improve support for low-resolution devices."
20141018 04:35:22< vultraz> shadowm ^
20141018 04:36:09< shadowm> You can pick multiple mods I think.
20141018 04:36:35< shadowm> Not sure because I've never even seen a mod add-on.
20141018 04:37:19< vultraz> I think so, but the text leaves that ambiguous 
20141018 04:37:28< shadowm> vultraz: Other than that, good.
20141018 04:37:35< vultraz> I could say...
20141018 04:37:44< vultraz> "creation and selection of era and modifications"
20141018 04:38:11< shadowm> On the paragraph regarding mods, "Modifications are capable of changing the game rules independently of the used era or map.".
20141018 04:38:22< shadowm> "[...] the used era or map."
20141018 04:38:45< shadowm> Then we have a can-can construct on the next sentence.
20141018 04:39:51< shadowm> vultraz: "creation and selection of era and modifications" -- Okay. Do you think you could take care of the mods description too?
20141018 04:40:01< vultraz> Ok
20141018 04:40:26< vultraz> I'm also going to move it above the second paragraph, so it's obvious what the next paragraph means by "modifications"
20141018 04:43:00< shadowm> Yeah, that's probably a good idea, otherwise the section's overarching structure is rather discordant.
20141018 04:43:56< irker902> wesnoth: Charles Dang website:master 11c577c8023a / start/1.12/template.html: Improved Multiplayer text and paragraph order http://git.io/qy0e-g
20141018 04:45:09< shadowm> The forum stats read "Total posts 488933 • Total topics 34035 • Total members 28605", right?
20141018 04:45:34< shadowm> The thing is, there are only 1,908 users who've posted over 20 posts.
20141018 04:46:00< shadowm> 667 over 100 posts.
20141018 04:46:09< shadowm> 90 over 1000.
20141018 04:46:22< fabi> iceiceice: literally?
20141018 04:46:25< shadowm> 10 over 5000.
20141018 04:46:50< shadowm> vultraz: So rather depressingly, I can't insert any hard figures in the Contributing section.
20141018 04:47:08< fabi> iceiceice: business blindness
20141018 04:47:38< vultraz> shadowm: be vague
20141018 04:47:47< shadowm> hundreds hundreds hundreds
20141018 04:47:56< shadowm> We're going to sound like a broken record.
20141018 04:48:47< iceiceice> shadowm: i think everyone will expect powerlaw phenomena here
20141018 04:49:02< ancestral> Not even Dave has accumulated 5000 posts
20141018 04:49:12< iceiceice> if you write "total posts * total topics * total members" people arent going to assume that its evenly distributed...
20141018 04:49:31< shadowm> Statistics don't make more sense than poetry to me. :p
20141018 04:50:13< iceiceice> yeah i guess
20141018 04:50:18< iceiceice> but i mean most peope have used social media
20141018 04:50:28< iceiceice> they know that not everyone has the same number of facebook friends
20141018 04:50:30< iceiceice> and twitter followers
20141018 04:50:51 * shadowm hasn't used Facebook.
20141018 04:50:51< iceiceice> and the same way, not everyone has the same number of wesnoth posts, not even in some approximate sense
20141018 04:51:19< shadowm> I find the > 20 posts criterion to be the most important for us.
20141018 04:51:36< ancestral> Over a certain amount of time
20141018 04:51:36< shadowm> The odds that people under 20 posts have contributed in any meaningful way are pretty low.
20141018 04:51:50< shadowm> "But shadowm, what about those developers with less than 20 posts?"
20141018 04:51:54< ancestral> Well, okay, some people will never get to 20
20141018 04:51:57< iceiceice> i think there was a guy whose first post was a feature request that i filled :p
20141018 04:52:06< iceiceice> it was probably basically his only post
20141018 04:52:18< ancestral> shadowm: Are there or have there been any developers who don’t use the wesnoth.org forums?
20141018 04:52:23 * vultraz has 506 posts
20141018 04:52:27< shadowm> Yes, ancestral.
20141018 04:52:29< ancestral> *don’t use or didn’t use
20141018 04:52:53< iceiceice> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=39489
20141018 04:54:51< shadowm> A forum moderator essentially guilt-tripped me into contributing code back in the day.
20141018 04:55:40< shadowm> (jk, he just explained the "if you want to see it happen, make it happen" principle to me.)
20141018 04:55:43< ancestral> vultraz: I think you might beat me
20141018 04:56:33< ancestral> Oh wow I was wayyyy off
20141018 04:56:52< shadowm> Dave has over 6000 posts, ancestral.
20141018 04:57:01< shadowm> Almost 7000.
20141018 04:57:09< ancestral> So he does
20141018 04:57:26< ancestral> I got 5000 mixed up with 7000
20141018 04:58:07< ancestral> I bet you could name off all 10 people with more than 5000 without having to look it up
20141018 04:59:47< ancestral> (Another bit of useless knowledge that would come in handy only during Wesnoth trivia night, which, will likely never happen)
20141018 05:00:55< shadowm> Q #1: What was the cause of the Great Crash of 2008?
20141018 05:01:22< shadowm> a) A virus.  b) HDD crash.  c) Datacenter fire.  d) Drunk sysadmin.
20141018 05:01:39< ancestral> Is this multiple choice?
20141018 05:01:41< fabi> I choose d)
20141018 05:01:48< mattsc> shadowm: the 1280x768 resolution for the screenshots is a decision, right?
20141018 05:01:48< shadowm> Single choice.
20141018 05:01:51< fabi> The most familiar to me.
20141018 05:02:07< ancestral> I go for the bland one, b)
20141018 05:02:18< shadowm> mattsc: It's a decision, yes, achieved through fully legit democratic means.
20141018 05:02:34< shadowm> And the correct answer is... b! ancestral wins.
20141018 05:03:02< fabi> :-(
20141018 05:03:06< vultraz> D would have been funnier
20141018 05:03:06< ancestral> I win… let me guess
20141018 05:03:16< iceiceice> datacenter fire? pff
20141018 05:03:17< fabi> indeed
20141018 05:03:24< iceiceice> you might as well have said "terrorist attack"
20141018 05:03:25< ancestral> In-game Wesnoth gold — single player-only
20141018 05:03:40< mattsc> shadowm: I thought I replied to that ...
20141018 05:03:47< shadowm> You win question #2.
20141018 05:04:20< shadowm> Q #2: When was the add-ons manager code first refactored?
20141018 05:04:21< ancestral> vultraz: It could be possible the sysadmin also happened to be drunk at some point during the HDD crash
20141018 05:04:34< shadowm> a) 1.11.x. b) 1.1.x. c) 1.5.x. d) 1.7.x.
20141018 05:04:44< vultraz> A
20141018 05:04:46< iceiceice> a
20141018 05:04:54< shadowm> The answer is c.
20141018 05:05:05< shadowm> You all lose.
20141018 05:05:13< iceiceice> nooooooooooooooo
20141018 05:05:16< ancestral> I didn’t play, I can’t lose
20141018 05:05:31< shadowm> You lose for not answering the question.
20141018 05:05:36< ancestral> Hah
20141018 05:06:15< ancestral> I’ve got a question I don’t know the answer to, but you do
20141018 05:06:40< ancestral> Q #3: What version of Wesnoth did shadowm first play?
20141018 05:06:51< shadowm> Properly: 0.9.6.
20141018 05:07:32< shadowm> "I'm going to take a quick look and ditch this crap if I don't like what I see": Possibly a 0.8.x version.
20141018 05:07:44< shadowm> I'd have to check which version SUSE Linux 9.3 shipped with.
20141018 05:07:52< ancestral> (Question on #wesnoth btw)
20141018 05:08:30< Appleman1234> lol
20141018 05:09:24< Appleman1234> wesnoth trivia sounds fun
20141018 05:09:40< ancestral> It seems many of us tried Wesnoth initially, saw something in it, then forgot about it, then rediscovered it a while later
20141018 05:11:08< Appleman1234> I discovered Wesnoth development , and then never did any Wesnoth development , other than some testing and a few bug reports 
20141018 05:11:17< ancestral> I think 1.1.x (just before 1.2) was my first time
20141018 05:11:49< Appleman1234> I still remember my hopes for a custom MP era, and the primitive mouse picture I made 
20141018 05:11:57-!- Sulfur [~Miranda@p5B3274C1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20141018 05:12:01< ancestral> Mouse picture?
20141018 05:12:39< shadowm> vultraz: https://gist.github.com/shikadilord/eb4dc2d9486f4085f6fa
20141018 05:12:48< shadowm> I'm so terrible at this.
20141018 05:13:21< ancestral> I found a bug with the r.wesnoth.org shortener
20141018 05:13:28< ancestral> “shortener” isn’t the right word
20141018 05:13:38< shadowm> It's a redirector. But go on.
20141018 05:13:40< ancestral> http://r.wesnoth.org/u104045
20141018 05:13:47< ancestral> Adds an ’n’
20141018 05:14:02< shadowm> Yeah.
20141018 05:14:21< shadowm> I don't remember how it was supposed to be used.
20141018 05:14:32< Appleman1234> ancestral, http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Contrib:Appleman1234
20141018 05:14:47< shadowm> ancestral: The thing is that un= is a valid parameter for the target.
20141018 05:15:06< shadowm> http://forums.wesnoth.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&un=ancestral
20141018 05:15:10< ancestral> http://forums.wesnoth.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=104045
20141018 05:15:15< ancestral> I see
20141018 05:15:28< ancestral> user id/user name
20141018 05:15:32< shadowm> I dont remember whether I wrote the redirection rule or someone else did and I don't remember whether the intention was to use user ids or names.
20141018 05:15:32< vultraz> shadowm: how do you edit gists?
20141018 05:15:51< shadowm> vultraz: Isn't there a massive Edit button at the top?
20141018 05:16:03< ancestral> so really you could consider it being r.wesnoth.org/unancestral
20141018 05:16:07< vultraz> shadowm: no
20141018 05:16:10< ancestral> Heh, “unancestral”
20141018 05:16:25< ancestral> I suppose, if I had to pick, the user name is better than the id
20141018 05:16:35< vultraz> shadowm: only 'Raw'
20141018 05:16:37< shadowm> It's just less permanent.
20141018 05:16:49< ancestral> Appleman1234: Familiar with Mouse Guard?
20141018 05:19:19< Appleman1234> ancestral, Yes, and various other inspiration media 
20141018 05:19:46< ancestral> Like the Redwall series of books
20141018 05:19:54< shadowm> ancestral: Try again.
20141018 05:19:57< Appleman1234> ancestral, I had a thread in 2006, but it got kind of hijacked by people wanting their favourite animal in the faction 
20141018 05:20:20< Appleman1234> so the idea went on hiatus but it has stayed with me 
20141018 05:21:04< ancestral> Appleman1234: Cool
20141018 05:21:37< shadowm> vultraz: Can't you give me the suggested edits yourself?
20141018 05:21:53< vultraz> shadowm: coming
20141018 05:22:07< c74d> <http://r.wesnoth.org/u…> *wasn’t* supposed to be for usernames?
20141018 05:22:20< shadowm> I DON'T KNOW.
20141018 05:22:25< shadowm> That's what I said above.
20141018 05:22:47< vultraz> shadowm: you have a content-content construct
20141018 05:22:58< shadowm> Con-con is a real place here.
20141018 05:23:20< shadowm> Although it's spelt differently.
20141018 05:24:49< ancestral> Concón?
20141018 05:25:00< shadowm> Yes.
20141018 05:25:28< shadowm> vultraz: Help me out here, I don't see it.
20141018 05:25:39< vultraz> shadowm: http://pastebin.com/YiFX1Na3
20141018 05:25:51< shadowm> At this point all I see are words devoid of meaning.
20141018 05:26:36< shadowm> vultraz: Why do you insist on changing the tense of the opening sentence?
20141018 05:26:55< shadowm> It's constantly being improved. Just look at the logs a few hours before now for proof.
20141018 05:27:23< vultraz> it sounded awkward to me, but I guess, leave it
20141018 05:27:45< shadowm> It's also intended to be a timeless statement.
20141018 05:28:03< shadowm> Wesnoth keeps evolving even after a new stable release.
20141018 05:28:35< vultraz> Ok
20141018 05:28:38< vultraz> leave it, then
20141018 05:28:42< ancestral> You can foretell the future, then
20141018 05:28:55< shadowm> What's with the comma position swap in the second sentence?
20141018 05:29:50< shadowm> vultraz: You... barely changed my paste.
20141018 05:29:56< ancestral> “shipped as part the official game”
20141018 05:30:01< ancestral> part of?
20141018 05:30:07< shadowm> I still feel this doesn't sound attractinve enough.
20141018 05:30:20< shadowm> Yes, typo.
20141018 05:30:33< shadowm> Also a typo.
20141018 05:31:00< shadowm> vultraz: Like, are we really making an important statement here? I don't feel it right now.
20141018 05:31:17< shadowm> Perhaps we need a test audience.
20141018 05:31:25< ancestral> I find it curious each of the bullet points link to a webpage…
20141018 05:31:31< ancestral> …except the last one
20141018 05:31:42< shadowm> I can't link to the Internet.
20141018 05:31:58< ancestral> Hahaha
20141018 05:32:22< shadowm> Maybe I should link to reddit, though.
20141018 05:32:27< ancestral> Sadly, if asked, I bet a common response would be “I thought google.com was the Internet”
20141018 05:32:38< shadowm> Since they like to call themselves "the front page of the Internet" or some smug nonsense like that.
20141018 05:32:55-!- [Relic] [~relic@99-58-54-211.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20141018 05:32:55< ancestral> shadowm: Only if Gambit updates the style graphics in the channel
20141018 05:33:07< shadowm> Channel? You mean the r/wesnoth subreddit?
20141018 05:33:13< ancestral> er that yes
20141018 05:33:25< shadowm> Gambit quit Wesnoth forever.
20141018 05:33:28< ancestral> Ahhh
20141018 05:33:36< ancestral> But he hangs out here?
20141018 05:33:37< shadowm> He got fed up with my constant faxes.
20141018 05:34:02< shadowm> (Obscure one-off joke from elsewhere.)
20141018 05:35:32-!- Coffee_irc [~david@ppp118-210-90-49.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
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20141018 05:36:38< vultraz> shadowm: btw, the con-con was "mainline content shipped as part the official game releases to hundreds of user-made content"
20141018 05:38:18< shadowm> Oh, you substituted 'projects' there.
20141018 05:39:00< vultraz> yes
20141018 05:39:15< shadowm> I said a bunch of stuff above. Opinions?
20141018 05:40:07< vultraz> I don't know what you mean by important statement
20141018 05:40:32< shadowm> Is this helpful? Are we making a good impression? Will it actually attract *anyone* at all?
20141018 05:41:02< vultraz> i THINK SO
20141018 05:41:50< shadowm> Should I commit it or is it a waste of space?
20141018 05:42:17< vultraz> I was going to raise that issue
20141018 05:42:29< vultraz> I think the bottom of the page starts to look a bit...crowded
20141018 05:42:35< shadowm> That's what I've been asking all this time, vultraz.
20141018 05:42:41< shadowm> ok, NO.
20141018 05:42:48< shadowm> That's not what I've been asking.
20141018 05:42:59< vultraz> But, for content
20141018 05:43:01< vultraz> No, it's not
20141018 05:43:03< vultraz> it's relevant
20141018 05:43:03< shadowm> I've been asking whether it's a waste of space in a strictly semantic sense.
20141018 05:43:30< shadowm> I don't think the bottom can look "crowded".
20141018 05:44:00< shadowm> Unless I stuffed crap into the footer.
20141018 05:44:23< vultraz> Just add it
20141018 05:46:18< shadowm> " Interested peoples  should refer to the <a href='#contribute'>Contribute</a> section below for details."
20141018 05:46:33< shadowm> Uh.
20141018 05:46:34< vultraz> What about it
20141018 05:46:44< shadowm> What's the point of pointing to a pointer?
20141018 05:47:05< shadowm> You just came up with a doubly-indirect pointer without even using C.
20141018 05:47:34< vultraz> To avoid duplicity
20141018 05:47:43< shadowm> (And no, I don't need to be lectured on the purpose of double indirection in C, thanks.)
20141018 05:48:06< shadowm> "Interested peoples".
20141018 05:49:02< shadowm> Do we need to make the difference between a group of persons and a nation here?
20141018 05:49:32< vultraz> Heh
20141018 05:49:42< vultraz> "interested countries should refer below"
20141018 05:49:48< vultraz> just say "Anyone interested"
20141018 05:49:57< vultraz> I don't know why I phrased it that way
20141018 05:53:45< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master e5c2b4e327fd / start/1.12/template.html: Replace attribute quotes with apostrophes http://git.io/1uZaPQ
20141018 05:53:48< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master 2dc64598d0ab / start/1.12/template.html: Readd Contribute section back http://git.io/QJj3qQ
20141018 05:54:39< shadowm> vultraz: Do you feel there's anything remaining to be done other than the screenshots?
20141018 05:55:05< shadowm> Perhaps you could reread the announcement in full to make sure everything makes sense and is in the right order, etc.
20141018 05:55:17< vultraz> we haven't decided about bold text or text size/width
20141018 05:55:38< shadowm> The latter is a style issue, can be dealt with post string freeze.
20141018 05:56:50< vultraz> I will do a full text review to see if there's any remaining issues
20141018 05:58:37< shadowm> We did decide that bold text felt like SHOUTING random WORDS all over the place.
20141018 05:59:03< vultraz> Yes, but I had proposed highlighting sentences
20141018 05:59:07< vultraz> You were on the fence on that
20141018 05:59:22< vultraz> and were going to commit some changes, which you then did, but did not return to the issue
20141018 05:59:37< shadowm> I said most sentences were too long for that. It'd look terrible.
20141018 05:59:39< shadowm> What changes?
20141018 06:00:17-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: Bye for now]
20141018 06:01:00< vultraz> 7ae32ed
20141018 06:01:11< shadowm> Looking at what has been added since then, I can surely say I maintain my posture on the matter.
20141018 06:01:40< vultraz> ok
20141018 06:02:00< shadowm> We aren't really at a stage where we can afford rewriting the content to fit a last-minute style choice.
20141018 06:02:20-!- ancestral [~ancestral@12.23.74.29] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20141018 06:04:05< shadowm> vultraz: So, in the end you said you didn't mind Open Sans.
20141018 06:04:11< vultraz> Yes
20141018 06:04:28< vultraz> question; "Thus, add-on creators can design scripts" should we change 'scripts' to 'content'?
20141018 06:05:04< shadowm> "add-on creators can design content" -- sounds tautological.
20141018 06:05:30< vultraz> well, we don't specifically have 'scripts'
20141018 06:05:42< shadowm> WML events are scripts, and Lua scripts are... guess what.
20141018 06:05:47< vultraz> Ok
20141018 06:05:50< vultraz> Moving on
20141018 06:07:09< shadowm> *Wow.
20141018 06:07:19< shadowm> "The default installation doesn't feature any modifications"
20141018 06:07:24 * shadowm winces.
20141018 06:07:53< shadowm> That's a U+0027 APOSTROPHE right there where a U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK should be
20141018 06:08:05< shadowm> Also, a grammatical contraction.
20141018 06:08:43< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master 6c1c913abc90 / start/1.12/template.html: Expand a contraction that also contained an incorrect ASCII apostrophe http://git.io/SaBG6Q
20141018 06:08:53< vultraz> It should be an apostophe 
20141018 06:08:58< vultraz> apostrophe 
20141018 06:09:05< shadowm> No.
20141018 06:09:08< vultraz> Why?
20141018 06:09:18< shadowm> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Typography_Style_Guide
20141018 06:09:27< shadowm> Also the phpBB style guide.
20141018 06:09:36< vultraz> ok
20141018 06:10:53< shadowm> Okay, that was the only typography issue left, I think.
20141018 06:12:35< shadowm> vultraz: Any opinions on the current line height?
20141018 06:12:44< vultraz> hang on
20141018 06:12:55< vultraz> I'm reviewing and have a few changed pending
20141018 06:12:57< vultraz> changes
20141018 06:13:08< shadowm> Although I guess I'll need to reevaluate it after changing the font family and measurements, so nvm.
20141018 06:14:57-!- Coffee_irc [~david@ppp118-210-90-49.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20141018 06:18:03< irker902> wesnoth: Charles Dang website:master 6cd7666cf35d / start/1.12/template.html: Removed a stray conjunction I missed http://git.io/zFQuVw
20141018 06:18:03< irker902> wesnoth: Charles Dang website:master 7cbe8a7f3327 / start/1.12/template.html: Tweaked line about mounted unit art http://git.io/vcqs1A
20141018 06:18:09< irker902> wesnoth: Charles Dang website:master 7eac4c4f5290 / start/1.12/template.html: Double quotes to single for consistency in last MP paragraph, and changed a peri http://git.io/K-rjwQ
20141018 06:18:10< irker902> wesnoth: Charles Dang website:master 9f3ecf620d8a / start/1.12/template.html: Killed an erroneous comma http://git.io/aGXqSA
20141018 06:18:10< irker902> wesnoth: Charles Dang website:master 1c72ac643c85 / start/1.12/template.html: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:wesnoth/website http://git.io/UWVnGg
20141018 06:18:20< vultraz> shadowm: ^
20141018 06:22:00-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@frnk-4d016b44.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host]
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20141018 06:22:01< shadowm> Our line measurements are a royal mess right now.
20141018 06:22:06< shadowm> Working on it.
20141018 06:22:30< shadowm> I swear this is my last project ever using non-preprocessed CSS.
20141018 06:26:37< shadowm> vultraz: Make sure you have an open bg tab with the previous state before checking out the next commit.
20141018 06:27:03< shadowm> Oh uh, I forgot the intro.
20141018 06:27:10< vultraz> Open bg tab?
20141018 06:27:13< vultraz> Oh
20141018 06:28:45< shadowm> "designated hero units".
20141018 06:29:08< shadowm> I wrote that, but I just remembered... http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DesignatedHero
20141018 06:35:10-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20141018 06:35:28-!- iceiceice [~chris@wesnoth/developer/iceiceice] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20141018 06:39:19< shadowm> vultraz: You did it again. :|
20141018 06:40:13< irker902> wesnoth: Charles Dang website:master af6ac67fe029 / start/1.12/template.html: Reverted change of a period to a colon http://git.io/osw2ow
20141018 06:40:31< shadowm> Not that.
20141018 06:41:48< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master f701a5396c3f / start/1.12/styles/westin.css: Make line heights more uniform everywhere http://git.io/zdFJVg
20141018 06:41:51< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master 1fcf5ac7b02b / start/1.12/template.html: U+0027 APOSTROPHE -> U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK http://git.io/or_I7w
20141018 06:42:00< shadowm> vultraz: Review f701a5396c3f.
20141018 06:43:48< vultraz> The change is subtle
20141018 06:44:02< vultraz> Noticeable only in side-by-side comparison
20141018 06:44:37< vultraz> But it's better
20141018 06:44:43< vultraz> more paragraph distinction
20141018 06:45:08< shadowm> Okay, because we are going to need this before tampering with the font family and size.
20141018 06:51:02< vultraz> shadowm: it looks much better, honestly, even when just browsing through it
20141018 06:53:14< irker902> wesnoth: Charles Dang website:master f2656bd484bf / start/1.12/template.html: Purged a 'you' from the end of Contributions http://git.io/_Kq_KA
20141018 06:54:33< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:master 1e13577732b2 / start/1.12/styles/westin.css: Use identical margins above and below the download button http://git.io/sj1PTA
20141018 06:55:26< shadowm> :|
20141018 06:55:38 * shadowm glares at past shadowm.
20141018 06:55:56< shadowm> You are making things more difficult for me right now, buddy.
20141018 06:56:15< shadowm> Not that you can read me since you are stuck in the past 5 days ago.
20141018 06:57:36< shadowm> But then, if I do this I'll have to recalculate every other measurement. Ugh.
20141018 06:59:33< shadowm> OK no.
20141018 07:07:15 * vultraz awaits
20141018 07:08:57< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:westin-font-test 0378c7f778a6 / start/1.12/styles/westin.css: Switch to Open Sans and a larger base font size http://git.io/qGRHtw
20141018 07:09:00< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:westin-font-test d7fc170dd8d1 / start/1.12/styles/westin.css: Use a hard initial font size http://git.io/opmEMw
20141018 07:09:03< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:westin-font-test 8e7f8fc4a60b / start/1.12/styles/westin.css: Readjust intro section measurements for the new font metrics http://git.io/nZh1VQ
20141018 07:09:05< shadowm> vultraz: Branch. ^
20141018 07:09:32< vultraz> ermeghard brehnch
20141018 07:11:32< vultraz> Is there any way to increase the space between inter-paragraph lines juuuust a tad?
20141018 07:11:35< vultraz> If not, no bother
20141018 07:11:52< shadowm> It should be twice the line height, which it is already.
20141018 07:12:19< shadowm> Hm.
20141018 07:12:31< vultraz> Not between paragraphs
20141018 07:12:33< vultraz> That's great
20141018 07:12:39< vultraz> between lines in paragraphs
20141018 07:16:14< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:westin-font-test a95a6ad18aa6 / start/1.12/styles/westin.css: Line height 1.6em -> 1.7em http://git.io/gLkC2w
20141018 07:16:15< shadowm> vultraz: ^
20141018 07:16:56< vultraz> perfect
20141018 07:19:11< vultraz> muuuuccch better
20141018 07:19:36< shadowm> I don't remember Open Sans' rendering being this glitchy when I was building Iris.
20141018 07:19:56< shadowm> It's even worse on Chrome.
20141018 07:20:07< shadowm> :|
20141018 07:20:40< shadowm> And it's unrelated to the RGBA gradient background.
20141018 07:21:41< vultraz> Looks fine to me
20141018 07:21:50< shadowm> Screenshot?
20141018 07:22:15< shadowm> Looks better on XP.
20141018 07:22:55< shadowm> On 8.1 it's only marginally better than what I have on Linux.
20141018 07:23:35< shadowm> Right. When I was building Iris I used a smaller font size.
20141018 07:23:56< shadowm> Precisely because I was afraid my eyes would start seeing hinting artifacts if I increased the font size.
20141018 07:24:11< shadowm> Grrrrrrrrrrrr computers.
20141018 07:25:14< shadowm> vultraz: Why did we increase the size again?
20141018 07:26:14< vultraz> https://www.dropbox.com/s/jvu4ojdketqnrlb/westin%20font%20test.png?dl=0
20141018 07:26:47< vultraz> shadowm: bit easier to read
20141018 07:26:48< shadowm> Yup, I'm having misgivings about this whole business.
20141018 07:26:59< shadowm> http://i.imgur.com/LrUYd9J.png <- That's IE and Firefox on 8.1.
20141018 07:27:34< shadowm> One uses DirectWrite or whatever, the other uses Cairo.
20141018 07:28:15-!- Necrosporus_ [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20141018 07:28:45 * shadowm downloads Chrome.
20141018 07:31:01< shadowm> http://i.imgur.com/IwsQB71.png -- same as Firefox.
20141018 07:31:02-!- Necrosporus [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20141018 07:32:24< shadowm> Wow, I seriously don't know what to do.
20141018 07:32:43< shadowm> And I have less than 24 hours to make up my mind.
20141018 07:33:13< shadowm> In the Iris case I spent a whole month mulling over the issue.
20141018 07:33:39< vultraz> Looks best on Chrome, I think
20141018 07:33:59-!- vultraz_iOS [uid24821@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zmxjbvfqvoftoyso] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20141018 07:34:26< shadowm> Right, there's a color difference between Chrome and Firefox on 8.1.
20141018 07:34:34< shadowm> Firefox looks better.
20141018 07:34:48< shadowm> Chrome's rendering is a little too light.
20141018 07:37:31< vultraz> shadowm: try font-size: 11pt;
20141018 07:37:37< vultraz> instead of 14px
20141018 07:37:52< shadowm> You mean 11px?
20141018 07:38:02< vultraz> no, 11 pt
20141018 07:38:27< vultraz> in body
20141018 07:38:36< shadowm> <body>
20141018 07:38:51< shadowm> You don't mean 11 pt.
20141018 07:38:58< shadowm> Give me the actual size your browser is using.
20141018 07:39:14< vultraz> What do you mean
20141018 07:39:32< shadowm> The computed font size.
20141018 07:39:52< vultraz> How do I know
20141018 07:39:56-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20141018 07:40:01< shadowm> Inspect the element in question.
20141018 07:41:15< vultraz> Computes as 15px
20141018 07:41:36< shadowm> Inspect the body element.
20141018 07:41:51< shadowm> Unless you are seriously telling me you want me to make the text even *larger*.
20141018 07:42:26< vultraz> It looked smaller
20141018 07:42:28< vultraz> Sorry
20141018 07:43:00< shadowm> The thing about pt (which is why you shall not use pt forevermore) is that it's a massive can of worms with screens.
20141018 07:43:13< shadowm> DPI.
20141018 07:43:39< shadowm> I mean, it's cool if you are making a print medium stylesheet, but that's not what we are doing here.
20141018 07:44:16< shadowm> (Incidentally, the print version of the page is hilariously broken.)
20141018 07:44:18< vultraz_iOS> It looked similar sized, and the rendering maybe a tad better. So I suggested it
20141018 07:44:28< shadowm> (Not sure whether I want to worry about it pre-freeze.)
20141018 07:44:45< vultraz_iOS> Who the hell is going to print this
20141018 07:44:54< shadowm> RMS.
20141018 07:45:31< shadowm> But then again, he'll print the console output of his HTML-to-text script (not even a tty browser, probably not).
20141018 07:45:45< shadowm> So he'd miss out on my print stylesheet tweaks.
20141018 07:46:51< vultraz_iOS> Anyway, 13 px seems too small
20141018 07:46:56< vultraz_iOS> So I'm not sure what to do here
20141018 07:47:33< vultraz_iOS> (You might update your staging on SAN so I can check it while I'm in mobile)
20141018 07:47:41< vultraz_iOS> On
20141018 07:47:47< shadowm> With what value?
20141018 07:49:03< shadowm> vultraz: I've updated it with 0.85em.
20141018 07:49:15< shadowm> That's 13.6px for me.
20141018 07:50:26< vultraz_iOS> Looks great on mobile
20141018 07:50:59< shadowm> By using em we are back to a browser config-dependent base size, though.
20141018 07:51:26< vultraz_iOS> Is that bad?
20141018 07:51:44< shadowm> Throw a sufficiently large base value and things get interesting.
20141018 07:52:21< vultraz_iOS> I believe numbers-San gave me a lecture once on avoiding arbitrary values
20141018 07:52:39< shadowm> It's a matter of consistency vs. usability.
20141018 07:53:27< shadowm> Okay, let the browser decide the base value.
20141018 07:54:12< vultraz_iOS> So were going with rms?
20141018 07:54:20< vultraz_iOS> I mean ems
20141018 07:54:22< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:westin-font-test 73aad5f59625 / start/1.12/styles/westin.css: Base font 14px -> 0.85em (not 0.88em) http://git.io/ilXv9w
20141018 07:54:29-!- lipkab [~the_new_l@host-91-147-211-128.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20141018 07:54:30< shadowm> But this doesn't solve the rendering glitches for me.
20141018 07:54:39< shadowm> Because it's a font hinting issue.
20141018 07:54:50< shadowm> Actually, it's an issue with my eyes being oversensitive to hinting.
20141018 07:55:31< shadowm> Do you think we could fund me a pair of new eyes?
20141018 07:55:38< shadowm> *new pair of eyes
20141018 07:55:50< shadowm> And maybe a patched visual cortex.
20141018 07:56:31< shadowm> vultraz: The next step is replacing Junicode for the header elements.
20141018 07:56:45< shadowm> It's not that Junicode looks bad for the headers -- it looks great, in fact.
20141018 07:56:56< shadowm> But it's not available by default on Windows.
20141018 07:57:30< vultraz_iOS> Please no TNR
20141018 07:57:48< shadowm> Ahahahahahahaha.
20141018 07:57:57< shadowm> vultraz: THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SEEING ON WINDOWS.
20141018 07:58:05-!- EdB_ [~edb@89-158-11-138.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20141018 07:58:09< shadowm> Sorry to break it to you like that, but it's the truth.
20141018 07:58:17< vultraz_iOS> .....no wonder
20141018 07:58:29< shadowm>     font-family: Junicode, Baskerville, FreeSerif, "Times New Roman", serif;
20141018 07:58:47< shadowm> This is really the last trace of Glamdrol that I want to purge before going live.
20141018 08:01:11< vultraz_iOS> Palatino?
20141018 08:02:21< shadowm> Give me a web font or a font that's installed by default on Windows and Linux.
20141018 08:02:43< shadowm> It has to be gratis.
20141018 08:03:21 * shadowm tried Libre Baskerville, it doesn't really look great.
20141018 08:03:48< shadowm> The original thing doesn't look great for numbers either.
20141018 08:04:08< shadowm> It's not an appropriate font for headers, why was this in Glamdrol? :\
20141018 08:04:31< vultraz_iOS> Because glamdrol is almost a decade old
20141018 08:04:59< shadowm> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baskerville#mediaviewer/File:BaskervilleSpec.svg <- You seriously don't want these digits in headings.
20141018 08:06:37< shadowm> Oh I know what we can use. Open Sans. :p
20141018 08:06:41< vultraz_iOS> Try Crimson Text
20141018 08:06:47< shadowm> (jk)
20141018 08:07:37< vultraz_iOS> Or Josefin Slab
20141018 08:07:44< shadowm> Crimson Text is huge.
20141018 08:07:58< shadowm> At least according to Google's unscientific gauge.
20141018 08:08:10< vultraz_iOS> Oh, how about EB Garamond
20141018 08:08:35< shadowm> Didn't I try this the other day...
20141018 08:08:56< shadowm> Oh right, no native bold variant.
20141018 08:09:25< vultraz_iOS> We don't need bold, these are headers
20141018 08:09:26< shadowm> Blegh.
20141018 08:09:51< shadowm> They are bold headers.
20141018 08:10:29< shadowm> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21371130/screenshots/bleh3.png
20141018 08:11:10< shadowm> Digits look awful without synthetic bold too.
20141018 08:11:26< shadowm> Why am I doing this instead of pasting the text on the previewer ugh.
20141018 08:11:47< vultraz_iOS> I dunno, why are you?
20141018 08:13:25< shadowm> Crimson Text semibold is very close to Junicode.
20141018 08:15:51< shadowm> wtf did you point me to Josefin Slab, vultrz.
20141018 08:16:44< vultraz_iOS> Er
20141018 08:16:51< vultraz_iOS> Pretend I didn't do that
20141018 08:16:58< vultraz_iOS> That never happened ok
20141018 08:17:05< shadowm> Crimson Text 600 alone is 23.37 KiB.
20141018 08:18:21< shadowm> Or 14.8 KiB.
20141018 08:18:28< shadowm> I mean 14.4 KiB.
20141018 08:18:43< shadowm> Ohhhh I see.
20141018 08:18:53< shadowm> Chrome is receiving it in a different format than Firefox.
20141018 08:19:07< shadowm> Well played, Google.
20141018 08:20:33< shadowm> Maybe we can get away without the italic variant of Open Sans.
20141018 08:20:43< shadowm> Probably not.
20141018 08:22:24< shadowm> Actually, we can.
20141018 08:22:41< vultraz_iOS> What about <cite>
20141018 08:22:45< shadowm> Oh, it's falling back to another font, right.
20141018 08:23:30< shadowm> That Trebuchet MS on Ubuntu 12.04 is...
20141018 08:23:43< shadowm> Droid Serif. Yuck.
20141018 08:24:22< vultraz_iOS> 12.04? You're behind....
20141018 08:24:32< vultraz_iOS> Try 14.10
20141018 08:24:55< irker902> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle website:westin-font-test bf8f9eea9b30 / start/1.12/ (styles/westin.css template.html): Use Crimson Text semibold for headings http://git.io/0oGJrQ
20141018 08:25:05< shadowm> vultraz: 12.04 is an LTS version.
20141018 08:25:56< shadowm> It's also the last one I've got installed that doesn't attempt to force massive font sizes down my throat and generally inconvenience me in some way.
20141018 08:27:08-!- ancestral [~ancestral@12.23.74.29] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20141018 08:27:38< vultraz> 14.04 is also LTS
20141018 08:27:55< shadowm> It's also the last one I've got installed that doesn't attempt to force massive font sizes down my throat and generally inconvenience me in some way.
20141018 08:28:19< shadowm> (Also, you said 14.10, which hasn't even been released yet.)
20141018 08:28:54< shadowm> vultraz: So, test the staging copy on your mobile device.
20141018 08:31:06< shadowm> Well well well, its metrics differ between Chrome and Firefox.
20141018 08:31:45< shadowm> I've got this weird situation here where Win/Chrome and Lin/Firefox render it with worse metrics than Win/Firefox and Lin/Chrome.
20141018 08:32:13< vultraz> looks fine
20141018 08:32:19< vultraz> on Chrome mobile
20141018 08:33:35-!- molgrum [~molgrum@212.85.89.43] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20141018 08:33:49< vultraz> Also on Desktop Chrome
20141018 08:33:56< vultraz> INFINITELY better than TNR
20141018 08:33:58< vultraz> *shudder*
20141018 08:34:35< shadowm> What are the odds you've been complaining about glamdrol all this time only because of the Times New Roman headings.
20141018 08:35:57< shadowm> So, this issue I'm experiencing here is very intriguing.
20141018 08:36:17< vultraz> There's a weird rendering issue with Crimson Text here though
20141018 08:36:29< vultraz> it's like it's using a white text shadow
20141018 08:36:45< shadowm> "Weird"?
20141018 08:37:23< shadowm> I don't know what you are seeing, but the intro heading does have an engraving-style shadow applied to it.
20141018 08:37:52< shadowm> What do IE and Chrome on Windows have in common with Firefox on Linux?
20141018 08:40:10< shadowm> :|
20141018 08:40:21< shadowm> The h1 box height does differ.
20141018 08:42:13< vultraz> shadowm: the h1 title has inconsistent top/bot margins
20141018 08:43:25< shadowm> No, they are consistently 0.
20141018 08:43:50< vultraz> Then why is it closer to the top of the box than the text below it
20141018 08:44:04< shadowm> Because of the situation I described above.
20141018 08:44:22< shadowm> It only affects specific browser/renderer combinations. I suspect the font is bugged.
20141018 08:44:34< vultraz> God damit
20141018 08:44:40< vultraz> please don't return me to TNR
20141018 08:45:37< shadowm> I thought it could be the font format, but that wouldn't make sense since Chrome and Firefox individually support the same formats on any platform.
20141018 08:45:59< shadowm> And they are both mysteriously inconsistent across platforms/devices in this case.
20141018 08:51:10< shadowm> vultraz: http://i.imgur.com/1aWEY5M.png
20141018 08:53:33< shadowm> Welp, I ran out of Serif alternatives.
20141018 08:59:24< vultraz> shadowm: what font is that?
20141018 08:59:31< vultraz> and why are you sending me a screenshot
20141018 08:59:31< shadowm> Cardo.
20141018 08:59:45< vultraz> ...nah
20141018 08:59:53< vultraz> the W and B are too wide
20141018 09:00:16< shadowm> Yes, it seems the uppercase outlines are thicker than the lowercase ones for some reason.
20141018 09:00:22< vultraz> Crimson Text was really nice...except for this issue
20141018 09:00:24< vultraz> blegh
20141018 09:01:34< shadowm> We're doomed to use Times New Roman forever.
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20141018 09:02:52< vultraz> Any possibility of using Celtic Garamond the 2nd? 
20141018 09:03:06< shadowm> No.
20141018 09:03:51< shadowm> The truth is I hate our title font. Also, the issue I had with your rendering was actually simple: you didn't stretch the text vertically.
20141018 09:04:15< shadowm> Because we actually have to stretch the glyphs vertically to get a usable logo.
20141018 09:04:17< vultraz> shadowm: try Ovo
20141018 09:04:58< shadowm> vultraz: We really need fonts that have a bold variant but okay.
20141018 09:07:06< shadowm> vultraz: http://i.imgur.com/dRnCbdu.png
20141018 09:07:30< shadowm> Bold. Non-bold is (obviously) too thin for these headings.
20141018 09:07:52< vultraz> Too rounded D:
20141018 09:08:07< vultraz> hmmmm
20141018 09:08:21< vultraz> Montaga is a possibility.
20141018 09:08:32< shadowm> Note to self: <cite> the other mentions of "Wesnoth" down the announcement later in master.
20141018 09:10:01< vultraz> yeah, let's try Montaga
20141018 09:10:46< shadowm> It's too bad browsers don't know how to semibold fonts, because it looks nice with normal weight and bad with bold.
20141018 09:12:04< shadowm> vultraz: http://i.imgur.com/vQfvYeh.png
20141018 09:12:28 * vultraz cringes
20141018 09:12:33< vultraz> the pain!
20141018 09:12:45< shadowm> Expect that for every font you mention that doesn't have a bold variant.
20141018 09:13:00< shadowm> Here's the normal variant, just to do it justice: http://i.imgur.com/5qVdeEK.png
20141018 09:13:12< vultraz> Ok. Here's one with a bold variant: Caudex
20141018 09:13:41< shadowm> To elaborate, if the font doesn't have a bold variant, the browser requests a synthetic version and... font renderers are not good at pretending to be font authors.
20141018 09:14:19< vultraz> the normal Montaga looks great :/
20141018 09:14:59< shadowm> Still Montaga normal, larger size: http://i.imgur.com/3mzWwvd.png
20141018 09:15:20< shadowm> Oh I don't like Caudex's W.
20141018 09:15:54< vultraz> shadowm: ya know we might be able to get away with larger Montaga
20141018 09:17:07< shadowm> Caudex Bold: http://i.imgur.com/HZPUGxO.png
20141018 09:17:45< vultraz> Ouch, I don't like that W
20141018 09:21:43< vultraz_iOS> I assume Crimson Text is no longer an option, so....we're going to have to pick something
20141018 09:21:56< vultraz_iOS> Honestly, Montagna looks the best so far
20141018 09:24:17< vultraz_iOS> What's your opinion
20141018 09:24:47< shadowm> Here's a full rendering with Montaga (had to replace the rules for h4 to fit): http://i.imgur.com/bqe9sU0.png
20141018 09:26:37< shadowm> I suspect it'd look better with Open Sans Light, but Light fonts tend to render really bad for me.
20141018 09:28:07< shadowm> Also, Firefox refuses to use Open Sans Light. :?
20141018 09:28:37< ancestral> I always thought Gentium worked well with Wesnoth - to the point where I used it in game
20141018 09:29:15< vultraz> ancestral: nah
20141018 09:29:23< ancestral> vultraz: yah
20141018 09:29:29< vultraz> nah
20141018 09:29:50< vultraz> the A, T, and R are too fat and look bad
20141018 09:31:09< ancestral> Your ______ is too fat and looks bad
20141018 09:32:07< ancestral> vultraz: http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c
20141018 09:34:13< ancestral> Haz teh laurj internashunul support too
20141018 09:35:58< vultraz>  shadowm: let's go with it
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20141018 09:46:44< shadowm> Still not convinced by the weight imbalance.
20141018 09:47:12< shadowm> If only semibold. :\
20141018 09:49:40< vultraz_iOS> Do you have a better alternative?
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20141018 09:55:15< shadowm> I can't be bothered to keep font-searching right now.
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20141018 13:48:08< mattsc> Hi Ivanovic.  Are we still looking for the next release on Friday, Oct 24?
20141018 13:48:29< mattsc> s/looking/aiming
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20141018 14:10:22-!- Ivanovic changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: next 1.12 RC planned for Friday, 24 Oct | string+feature freeze active on 1.12 | 256 bugs, 338 feature requests, 29 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Alternate logs: http://wesnoth.debian.net | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20141018 14:10:31< Ivanovic> mattsc: does this answer your question?
20141018 14:10:55< mattsc> Ivanovic: it does, thank you
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20141018 15:30:43< bumbadadabum> zookeeper: Are the changes I made to EI appreciated?
20141018 15:30:46< bumbadadabum> the updated maps
20141018 15:30:54< bumbadadabum> and the small changes to scenarios
20141018 15:31:16< bumbadadabum> I might try to go over HttT that was as well
20141018 15:31:33< zookeeper> bumbadadabum, yeah, there's some things that might be improved but it's an overall improvement, so yes
20141018 15:31:58< bumbadadabum> oh what critique do you have?
20141018 15:32:03< bumbadadabum> I can try to improve those things
20141018 15:32:38< zookeeper> basically just continuity, matching the surrounding terrain more on the various maps
20141018 15:32:48< bumbadadabum> uhu
20141018 15:34:00< bumbadadabum> yeah I didn't pay too much attention to it
20141018 15:34:02< bumbadadabum> but then again, neither did the original
20141018 15:34:15< zookeeper> i mean, the surroundings look very different between "approaching weldyn" and "weldyn besieged"
20141018 15:34:30< bumbadadabum> in the original they did as well, IIRC
20141018 15:34:37< zookeeper> it's not that big a deal, and it's still and improvement over the old ones
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20141018 15:38:23< bumbadadabum> zookeeper: ok so for HttT, I made a special unit type for delfador like a year ago
20141018 15:38:32< zookeeper> oh?
20141018 15:38:47< bumbadadabum> which has the elvish ranged defense anim
20141018 15:38:47< bumbadadabum> only thing changed pretty much
20141018 15:39:08< bumbadadabum> but that was about the time [base_unit]s showed up in the help
20141018 15:40:08< bumbadadabum> I thought it was a nice flavor thing
20141018 15:40:14< bumbadadabum> but it showing up in the help is just iffy imo
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20141018 15:43:09< irker098> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master fc881e95add0 / src/filesystem.hpp: remove comment http://git.io/3NVjaA
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20141018 15:44:36< zookeeper> bumbadadabum, i take it you mean the shyde halo orb thing
20141018 15:44:40< bumbadadabum> y
20141018 15:44:53< bumbadadabum>     {DEFENSE_ANIM_ELVEN_RANGE "units/human-magi/elder-mage-defend.png" "units/human-magi/elder-mage.png" {SOUND_LIST:HUMAN_OLD_HIT} ranged }
20141018 15:45:04< bumbadadabum> it says elven in the macro
20141018 15:45:13< bumbadadabum> but yeah it's the shyde one
20141018 15:47:01< zookeeper> eh, i dunno, i'd rather keep it as an elvish thing
20141018 15:47:11< zookeeper> otherwise it's easily "the delfador thing, which some elves also have"
20141018 15:47:20< bumbadadabum> eh
20141018 15:47:33< bumbadadabum> I thought it would show his ties with the elves pretty well
20141018 15:47:42< bumbadadabum> but yeah if you don't want it I'll just not do it
20141018 15:47:46< zookeeper> you'll first see it with delfador, and then maybe later with some elves too
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20141018 15:52:59< irker098> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master d3017c45a726 / src/clipboard.cpp: fixup windows clipboard http://git.io/FkOMtw
20141018 15:53:06< mattsc> gfgtdf, iceiceice: I think I should send out another 1.12 status email to the ML.  Could you send me a one or two sentence summary of the filesystem fix?
20141018 15:53:18< mattsc> And any other must-fix or important bug you are working on.
20141018 15:53:58< gfgtdf> mattsc: for 1.12 im currecntly only working on the filesystem thing.
20141018 15:54:51< mattsc> gfgtdf: okay, I think that’s the main thing remaining anyway
20141018 15:55:23< mattsc> gfgtdf: so, if you could send me a sentence or two with the status of that to include in my email sometime today, that ouwld be great.
20141018 15:55:49< mattsc> (I won’t be around for quite some while starting in ~10 min, so no rush)
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20141018 15:57:01< mattsc> thunderstruck: same question to you concerning the SoS saves
20141018 15:58:01< mattsc> Those two, shadowm’s upstream bug and fabi’s LoW work are the only things I have left on my must-fix list.
20141018 15:58:14< mattsc> Although I feel like I am forgetting something.  I’ll go through my notes later ...
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20141018 16:22:33< gfgtdf> Previously our filesystem.cpp code (used for reading/writing .cfg or savefiles) only understood locale encoding (usually Windows-1252 on windows)
20141018 16:22:35< gfgtdf> Previously the SDL code (used reading sound/images/...) only understood asci filenames on windows (which is/was a bug in sdl_mixer/sdl 1.2).
20141018 16:22:36< gfgtdf> We now merged the complete AI-boost-filesystem branch into master which contains 2 parts:
20141018 16:22:38< gfgtdf> 1) a new implementation of filesystem.cpp which uses boost_filesystem and can fully handle unicode on all systems. This raises our boost dependencly to 1.44 for linux and 1.48 on windows
20141018 16:22:39< gfgtdf> 2) we made SDL use our filesystem functions so now sdl also understands full utf8 on windows. This raises our SDL_mixer dependency to version 1.2.12
20141018 16:22:41< gfgtdf> (1) Fixes https://gna.org/bugs/?13926
20141018 16:22:42< gfgtdf> (2) Fixes https://gna.org/bugs/?20089
20141018 16:22:44< gfgtdf> Part 1 is still optional on master and not included in the projectfiles (except scons) which means (if you dont use scons) you have to manually remove filesystem.cpp from the projectfile and add filesystem_boost.cpp instead if you want to test it.
20141018 16:22:45< gfgtdf> As soon as we have tested it enough (in some days) we want to merge it into 1.12 and make it non-optional on master.
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20141018 16:28:54< gfgtdf> mattsc: ^
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20141018 17:04:54< vultraz> shadowm: according to gfonts, Montaga is frequently used with Open Sans. Just mentioning.
20141018 17:13:03< irker098> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 321166b8697d / src/clipboard.cpp: allow copsing unicode in wesnoth http://git.io/g6lYvg
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20141018 17:51:11< irker098> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 441343aa3ddf / src/playcampaign.cpp: fix showing mp_connect between sp scenarios. http://git.io/GYXOcw
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20141018 18:16:13< gfgtdf> what is in scons teh diffrence between sys.platform == 'win32' and env["PLATFORM"] == "win32" ?
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20141018 18:23:07< irker098> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 782c36d800cc / SConstruct: add scons check for boost_locale for windows http://git.io/OnaT_A
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20141018 18:48:43< loonycyborg> gfgtdf: cross-compile
20141018 18:49:03< loonycyborg> sys.platform is platform of python that is running the script
20141018 18:49:19< loonycyborg> and env["PLATFORM"] is cross host
20141018 18:49:28< gfgtdf> loonycyborg: ok i understood ty.
20141018 19:01:28< irker098> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 5bbb14f2cf1f / src/unit.cpp: fix bug 22826 http://git.io/4qhL6w
20141018 19:01:30< irker098> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 76d8f38353d7 / SConstruct: Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth http://git.io/cCxJWA
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20141018 19:08:05< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#4271 (master - 782c36d : gfgtdf): The build has errored.
20141018 19:08:05< travis-ci> Build details : http://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/38364528
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20141018 19:23:04< gfgtdf> in the wikipage http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CodingStandards which is ~10 years odl it says that we shouldn't use std::wstring becasue some systems doesnt support it, i would liek to remove that becasue 1) that into is ~10 years old and i doubt we still support those plattforms 2) boost::filesystem uses std::wstring
20141018 19:29:19< gfgtdf> i believe the operating system in question which did not support std::wstring was freebsd 4.x 
20141018 19:45:38< iceiceice> gfgtdf: do we use wstring anywhere besdies in #ifdef win32?
20141018 19:46:11< gfgtdf> iceiceice: http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_56_0/boost/filesystem/path.hpp
20141018 19:47:32< Necrosporus> gfgtdf, what about GNU/Linux?
20141018 19:47:57< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: what should be with linux ?
20141018 19:48:55< Necrosporus> gfgtdf, Linux's path are 8 bit strings
20141018 19:49:07< Necrosporus> Also utf8 text is represented as 8 bit too
20141018 19:49:24< Necrosporus> So I guess wstrings is better to be avoided 
20141018 19:49:36< iceiceice> Necrosporus: no i think wstring is okay on linux
20141018 19:49:51< Necrosporus> iceiceice, what's use for them?
20141018 19:50:04< iceiceice> i mean, it wont cause a compiler error
20141018 19:50:16< Necrosporus> probably, but it doesn't mean it should not be avoided
20141018 19:50:51< Necrosporus> using single format for internal representation of strings is probably better
20141018 19:51:57< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: we alcualy use std::vector<wchar_r>.
20141018 19:52:00< gfgtdf> actualy*
20141018 19:52:05< gfgtdf> sometimes*
20141018 19:53:25< Necrosporus> What's difference between wstring and vector wchar_r?
20141018 19:54:09< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: wchar_t is easier to use (like std::string) because its adds a termainating '\0'
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20141018 19:56:12< irker098> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master b75f41798258 / data/lua/wml-tags.lua: fix a check in move_unit http://git.io/2KKB2w
20141018 19:56:14< irker098> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master a8d69793ee60 / data/test/scenarios/test_move_unit.cfg: add tests for {MOVE_UNIT} macro http://git.io/f4tisw
20141018 19:56:16< irker098> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 718f8f289cf8 / changelog: update changelog http://git.io/lckmFQ
20141018 19:56:37< irker098> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:1.12 3b1579c6f770 / data/lua/wml-tags.lua: fix a check in move_unit http://git.io/24zPWQ
20141018 19:56:39< irker098> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:1.12 8c6297be7d48 / data/lua/wml-tags.lua: Merge pull request #299 from cbeck88/move_unit_bug http://git.io/I40Wbw
20141018 19:57:37< irker098> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:1.12 84ee4189ad41 / changelog: update changelog http://git.io/9MwvBg
20141018 20:02:45< irker098> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 01fa3ff29814 / wml_test_schedule: register the tests of {MOVE_UNIT} macro with the test schedule http://git.io/KWxu5w
20141018 20:04:09< iceiceice> mattsc: do you know what if anything is planned to address GunChleoc's concerns here? http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=41074#p576693
20141018 20:05:37< loonycyborg> gfgtdf: I think there's no point in using char_t and derived types for anything other than interfacing with winapi
20141018 20:08:15< gfgtdf> loonycyborg: that woudl also be true for wchar_t, i am not proposing to use wchar_t more im just proposing to get rid of teh utf16::strign defined as std::vector<wchar_t> as a workaround for std::wstrign now beeing supported on some systems if boost filesystem has wstrign as a requirement anyways (also for non-windows)
20141018 20:08:56< gfgtdf> did i express myself unsterstandabe?
20141018 20:09:33< loonycyborg> I don't know much about this utf16::string business
20141018 20:09:40< loonycyborg> better ask AI0867 about it
20141018 20:12:43< gfgtdf> loonycyborg: but he is not available
20141018 20:13:56< loonycyborg> nonetheless, I know little about utf16::string
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20141018 20:36:37< Necrosporus> gfgtdf, is utf16::string used anywhere else than in windows-specific stuff?
20141018 20:36:59< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: not that im aware of.
20141018 20:38:01< Necrosporus> Then, if it's cut off by preprocessor on systems which do not support wstring, then what was a reason to introduce it anyway?
20141018 20:38:33< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: idk
20141018 20:39:40< iceiceice> unless it appears now in the "boost filesystem header"
20141018 20:39:58< iceiceice> i guess probably that is not #ifdef WIN32 ?
20141018 20:40:02< iceiceice> i really have no idea
20141018 20:40:23< gfgtdf> iceiceice: in boost filesytem headers its not in ifdefs
20141018 20:40:32< iceiceice> i guess if there is anyone on the planet that still does not have wstring they will let us know
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20141018 21:04:23< iceiceice> gfgtdf: heres a boost ticket about the issue: https://svn.boost.org/trac/boost/ticket/4581
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20141018 21:17:07< gfgtdf> the one in the  thread was unhappy because his system didnt had wchar_t but in our code, our windows whcar_t string is not put in #if s so i guess all our users have wchar_t support.
20141018 21:17:09< gfgtdf> iceiceice: ^
20141018 21:18:33< mattsc> gfgtdf: that’s a lot more than two sentence.  ;)  But thanks, that’s a nice summary.
20141018 21:19:04< mattsc> gfgtdf: can we try to get this into the 1.12 branch before the next release on Friday?
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20141018 21:20:03< gfgtdf_> mattsc: idk how many time i'll hvae in this week, and i also dont now how complicated merging will be.
20141018 21:20:57< mattsc> gfgtdf_: okay - well, let me just say what I think we *should try* to do:
20141018 21:21:26< mattsc> It would be very good if we could get this into the next release (on Friday, Oct 24)
20141018 21:21:41< mattsc> If we can, that release should be 1.11.18 aka 1.12 RC2.
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20141018 21:22:15< mattsc> Then, if there are no serious problems, the release after that (by or before Nov 5) will be 1.12.0.
20141018 21:22:43< gfgtdf> mattsc: i also dont knwo how long we are going to test it in master
20141018 21:22:51< mattsc> This, of course, assumes that the remaining essential bugs are fixed on the same timescale.
20141018 21:23:05< mattsc> gfgtdf: well, I just told you.  ;)
20141018 21:24:00< mattsc> gfgtdf: now it’s pushback time for you
20141018 21:24:09< iceiceice> mattsc: i basically agree with you but let me also point out,
20141018 21:24:29< iceiceice> if we merge to 1.12 and it turns out there are problems
20141018 21:24:44< iceiceice> it could be very messy
20141018 21:24:49< iceiceice> to unmerge etc.
20141018 21:25:00< mattsc> iceiceice: understood
20141018 21:25:03< iceiceice> so the more conservative route is to test more on master
20141018 21:26:19< mattsc> iceiceice: of course; so what’s your estimate of how much testing is needed?
20141018 21:26:23< iceiceice> right now the new code is still not working on jenkins
20141018 21:26:24< iceiceice> http://baldras.wesnoth.org:8080/job/Wesnoth/branch=master,compiler=mingw32,label=Debian7-32/lastBuild/console
20141018 21:26:31< iceiceice> because we don't have the boost locale i guess
20141018 21:26:57< iceiceice> my suggestion is, if we can get that working, then we'll have a link to an executable
20141018 21:27:02< mattsc> iceiceice: that’s why I asked for the summary, because you guys’ estimates are much better than my own here
20141018 21:27:37< iceiceice> and we can post on forums, "if you had problems with unicode on windows, please download 1.13 from git and try this executable, so we can evaluate the new code"
20141018 21:28:25< mattsc> iceiceice: sounds good, in principle, but also sounds like a slow and lengthy process; unless you target people who you know can and will test it quickly
20141018 21:28:27< iceiceice> its not necessary
20141018 21:28:40< iceiceice> it would be nice though
20141018 21:28:50< mattsc> right
20141018 21:30:21< mattsc> iceiceice: can you make a counter proposal for a schedule that you are more comfortable with?
20141018 21:30:48< iceiceice> i think your proposal is good but i cant commit personally to meeting it
20141018 21:31:19< mattsc> iceiceice: don’t worry, I’m not going to hold you personally responsible and come take your cookies away  ;)
20141018 21:31:39< mattsc> I’m just intentionally being a bit pushy and trying to shake things up
20141018 21:31:45< gfgtdf> mattsc: also im kinda unused to switching to 1.12 branch, so it'd take some time to make the projectfiles correctly....
20141018 21:32:57< iceiceice> mattsc: perish the thought! (re: cookies)
20141018 21:33:03< mattsc> gfgtdf: okay, no worries
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20141018 21:33:20< mattsc> iceiceice: well, I’d really be coming after your beer anyway!
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20141018 21:34:36< mattsc> iceiceice, gfgtdf: so how about we take the (admittedly quite aggressive) approach that I outlined above as a baseline, and we reconsider by Tue or Wed whether that seems realistic then?
20141018 21:34:44< iceiceice> ok well, now i have to go check up on my cookies and my beer, i will be back a bit later :p
20141018 21:35:10< mattsc> gfgtdf: another question: you gave lib requirements for Linux and Windows up there.  I assume OS X would be the same as Linux?
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20141018 21:36:00< gfgtdf> mattsc: if my assumptions that osx also has utf8 as default encoding is correct then yes.
20141018 21:36:48< gfgtdf> mattsc: did you already managed to get boost libs ?
20141018 21:36:53< mattsc> gfgtdf: okay, good.  I’m already using boost 1.45 for 1.12 (and something newer than that in master)
20141018 21:37:36< mattsc> gfgtdf: no; I have had pretty much no time for Wesnoth since we last talked.  I will do so soon though.
20141018 21:37:47< mattsc> the 1.45 there ^ was for the other boost libs
20141018 21:38:44< gfgtdf> mattsc: i believe wheni installed boost, i installe just everying that boost has, i am not even sure whether it alked my to do something different
20141018 21:38:50< gfgtdf> asked*
20141018 21:39:21< mattsc> gfgtdf: I didn’t originally set this up, so I just followed what crimson_penguin did and just updated those libraries that were there
20141018 21:39:50< mattsc> but since I have done it for the boost dylibs that I listed yesterday, it really shouldn’t be a problem for boost_filesystem
20141018 21:40:04< mattsc> I just simply haven’t had the time for it.
20141018 21:40:31< mattsc> (in my case, I usually have less time on the weekends than during the week, and this week is no exception)
20141018 21:42:07< mattsc> iceiceice: as for your question concerning GunChleoc’s points:
20141018 21:42:38< mattsc> #1 is not essential.  If somebody wants to work on it, fine, otherwise there’s no problem leaving it as is.
20141018 21:43:24 * crimson_penguin lurks in the shadows
20141018 21:43:26< mattsc> #2 would be nice to do something about, but it’s not clear to me what this means and it will only happen if fabi finds the time for it.
20141018 21:43:49< mattsc> \me likes to use crimson_penguin’s nick from time to time just to keep him on his toes
20141018 21:43:56< mattsc> grr …
20141018 21:44:03 * mattsc likes ...
20141018 21:45:00< mattsc> iceiceice: if that does not happen, I think we should go with what you suggest at the very end here:  http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=575727#p575846
20141018 21:49:03< mattsc> Okay, I’m off again too.  Back in a couple hours …
20141018 21:49:09< mattsc> Thanks for working on this, everybody!
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20141018 23:20:32< shadowm> vultraz: In hindsight, I've been neglecting several other important aspects of typesetting, such as font colors.
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20141018 23:22:17< shadowm> I think I might actually be able to work with Montaga with this in mind.
20141018 23:22:56< shadowm> (I had the whole color spectrum upside down, with headings lighter than the actual content. Oops.)
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20141018 23:49:41< irker864> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 90502e97926d / src/font.cpp: add { } to BOOST_FOREACH http://git.io/XzAVcw
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20141018 23:59:26< irker864> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master d126081ff35d / src/font.cpp: fix use of ...A( winapi functions for fonts. http://git.io/1sjc6A
--- Log closed Sun Oct 19 00:00:16 2014