--- Log opened Mon Nov 24 00:00:21 2014
20141124 00:00:34< shadowm> The request still stands.
20141124 00:01:38< gfgtdf> shadowm: i currently only have 1.11.19 and 1.13.0 installed
20141124 00:01:50< shadowm> 1.11.17 - 1.11.19 are also accepted in the server.
20141124 00:02:04< gfgtdf> i'll try then
20141124 00:02:17< shadowm> Oh, never mind, I see ancestral.
20141124 00:02:22 * ancestral waves
20141124 00:02:28< ancestral> Err
20141124 00:02:36< ancestral> OK
20141124 00:02:41< shadowm> Bug confirmed then.
20141124 00:02:46 * shadowm sighs.
20141124 00:02:57< shadowm> ancestral: Thanks.
20141124 00:03:00< ancestral> np
20141124 00:03:33< ancestral> And now I have my registered username in mp
20141124 00:04:11< ancestral> I forget to change that with new versions
20141124 00:04:22< shadowm> Since I doubt this changed server-side, I suspect that 1) when rearranging the UI people forgot to make the password option actually incur in the relevant option being sent to the server; or 2) the server is badly designed and someone forgot instead to have clients request a password input when joining a password-protected game.
20141124 00:04:35< shadowm> I hope it's (1).
20141124 00:12:06< irker278> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master f0fac7f36798 / src/scripting/lua_kernel_base.cpp: add a "__tostring" method for boost functions http://git.io/z_Pfhw
20141124 00:12:08< irker278> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 93becab0acee / src/scripting/lua_kernel_base.cpp: clean up some comments, improve type-safety in lua boost function http://git.io/XDDfeQ
20141124 00:13:20< shadowm> What's the purpose of storing functions in Lua?
20141124 00:13:35< iceiceice> so that lua can call them
20141124 00:13:38< shadowm> I mean function objects.
20141124 00:13:43< shadowm> Yes, but what for?
20141124 00:13:52< iceiceice> all callbacks must be in the lua environment
20141124 00:13:56< iceiceice> lua normally interfaces with C only.
20141124 00:14:04< iceiceice> this is a limitation that can be quite annoying
20141124 00:14:22< iceiceice> you can only push a standard C function of type int (luaState*) to lua
20141124 00:14:42< iceiceice> so you cannot take a different function and bind some of its parameters, then pass that to lua,
20141124 00:14:48< iceiceice> because bosot function is not acceptable
20141124 00:15:00< iceiceice> similarly you cannot push a C++ method function to lua
20141124 00:15:09< iceiceice> pointer to method function just isn't allowed
20141124 00:15:41< shadowm> Isn't this intended to limit the types of exceptions that can be thrown through Lua?
20141124 00:16:01< iceiceice> no, its because lua is a C library and has no concept of C++
20141124 00:16:02< shadowm> (Note: through, not from.)
20141124 00:16:11< shadowm> Lua is not a C library in our case.
20141124 00:16:21< iceiceice> yes but that's only because we choose to compile it as C++
20141124 00:16:38< shadowm> And this way it can call C++ functions that can throw.
20141124 00:16:50< iceiceice> there's no meaningful limitation we impose on what exceptions can be thrown through lua
20141124 00:17:16< shadowm> And I suspect that will immediately break everything in Lua-land precisely because Lua isn't designed to handle exceptions.
20141124 00:17:31< iceiceice> the design of the system is that if an exception will go through lua, it should be derived from lua jailbreak exception
20141124 00:17:41< iceiceice> if it is not, it will get swallowed by lua
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20141124 00:18:09< iceiceice> if it is a lua jail break exception, there's a secret static pointer somewhere where the exception gets stashed, until we exit lua, then it gets rethrown.
20141124 00:18:51< iceiceice> but we call some really crazy functions through lua,
20141124 00:18:53< shadowm> Shouldn't that apply to all other exception types derived from std::exception?
20141124 00:18:59< iceiceice> we throw many game signals
20141124 00:19:09< shadowm> (Yes, not all exception types are derived from std::exception but still.)
20141124 00:19:37< iceiceice> this system was put in place by mordante and crab, i don't know why not every exception we throw derives from lua jailbreak.
20141124 00:20:21< shadowm> There was some discussion in the ML about that I'm too lazy to dig up right now, but surely it's because they missed the rest?
20141124 00:20:25< iceiceice> generally when lua "swallows it" it means that it will try to call e.what and chat that to the screen.
20141124 00:20:30< iceiceice> so its not like it goes unreported
20141124 00:20:36< gfgtdf> shadowm: wel cannot make all exception go thought lua becaseu we he exception need a "clone" and "rethrow" function for that becasue we stor acopy of it while we enter lua land, and then restrow it after we leave
20141124 00:20:56< gfgtdf> iceiceice: so we aswallow then who dont have that
20141124 00:21:28< iceiceice> gfgtdf: its reasonable to ask though why things like utf8 exception dont derive from it though
20141124 00:21:53< iceiceice> idk i think actually there are ways of handling this without something like jailbreak exception,
20141124 00:21:57< shadowm> Okay, so what would happen if I threw int(1) from Lua-land?
20141124 00:22:00< iceiceice> i read some stuff on a lua mailinglist about it once
20141124 00:22:16< iceiceice> shadowm: i think it would chat to the screen "lua caught an unspecified general exception"
20141124 00:22:24< iceiceice> or something along these lines
20141124 00:22:31< shadowm> And stderr too, I presume.
20141124 00:22:50< iceiceice> do you remember that line where i added an assert to lua.cpp or something?
20141124 00:22:52< shadowm> Because there's a good chance something is going horribly wrong and we mightn't even get to issue the next framebuffer refresh.
20141124 00:23:03< shadowm> Hm no.
20141124 00:23:06< iceiceice> the assert i added was to try to make sure this wasn't happening on a regular basis.
20141124 00:23:18< iceiceice> i'm pretty sure you had to either revert or reapply or something when you upgraded the lua kerenl
20141124 00:23:46< shadowm> You keep using that word. I do not even know what it means. :p
20141124 00:23:54< iceiceice> which word
20141124 00:24:13< shadowm> I thought the "Lua kernel" was a concept sitting between the game engine and Lua.
20141124 00:24:23< shadowm> And I only upgraded Lua.
20141124 00:24:27< iceiceice> its a word i am abusing greatly
20141124 00:24:43< iceiceice> you upgraded lua, thats right, i should have said this
20141124 00:24:59< shadowm> I also explained how I upgraded Lua and it's not how you seem to assume I did it.
20141124 00:25:20< iceiceice> i know that you looked at the history of src/lua and at the various changes people made
20141124 00:25:21< shadowm> You can check the commit where I did it to see what commits actually caused problems for me and how I dealt with them.
20141124 00:25:39< shadowm> Really only for those particular problematic commits.
20141124 00:26:15< iceiceice> okay well here's the commit i mention: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/1e45476e351a2fc57866fdd8f200402ee253517c
20141124 00:27:24< shadowm> Okay, so atm it will effectively CTD instead of swallowing it.
20141124 00:27:44< shadowm> (Unless someone goes and throws NDEBUG at the compiler, but please don't do that.)
20141124 00:27:49< iceiceice> i don't know i didn't actually review your commit
20141124 00:28:17< shadowm> :|
20141124 00:28:49< iceiceice> also the whole mechanism is pretty fragile,
20141124 00:28:58< iceiceice> for instance see this update
20141124 00:28:58< iceiceice> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/89d7e4b495ece27f6a0bd9d8402ed07bb6c8dc35
20141124 00:29:10< shadowm> The line remains in master (it doesn't exist in 1.12), so it's still the case.
20141124 00:29:15< iceiceice> ok,
20141124 00:29:20< shadowm> (It's just as simple as opening the file in an editor and looking it up.)
20141124 00:29:25< iceiceice> so there's a big problem taht can arise if someone is not careful about exception types,
20141124 00:29:44< iceiceice> if you define an exception using multiple inheritance such that it derives from both std::exception and lua jailbreak exception,
20141124 00:29:59< iceiceice> it will be treated as an unnamed exception because C++ doesn't like multiple inheritance exceptions
20141124 00:30:14< gfgtdf> iceiceice: that' be news to me
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20141124 00:30:27< iceiceice> gfgtdf: that was when i was asking you aboud diamond problem etc.
20141124 00:31:26< gfgtdf> iceiceice: inheritign from two exceptions is not nesecary double diamond problme
20141124 00:31:40< iceiceice> ok maybe i have forgotten the details
20141124 00:31:58< shadowm> But tlua_jailbreak_exception doesn't inherit from std::exception.
20141124 00:32:23< iceiceice> shadowm: the basic issue is that if i have an exception type,
20141124 00:32:36< iceiceice> and when i look at the graph of it's inheritances and i expand it,
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20141124 00:32:48< iceiceice> it has multiple different paths to std::exception / lua_jailbreak_exception,
20141124 00:33:12< gfgtdf> iceiceice: which exceptions does have that ?
20141124 00:33:15< iceiceice> C++ won't be able to match the types properly in the try catch block
20141124 00:33:17< shadowm> Perhaps what you meant to say is if the exception is defined so that it inherits from either type from multiple paths?
20141124 00:33:40< iceiceice> i don't remember all the details anymore, i'm trying to look up a reference
20141124 00:33:58< shadowm> e.g. std::exception -> A, std::exception -> B; {A, B} -> CException.
20141124 00:34:16< shadowm> Because *that* is the diamond problem AFAIK.
20141124 00:35:10< iceiceice> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1605778/custom-exceptions-in-c/1605852#1605852
20141124 00:36:28< shadowm> Okay, but this is different from what you said above.
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20141124 00:36:48< iceiceice> like i said i forgot many of the details but i remembered that there's some scenario where it could be an issue
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20141124 00:37:22< gfgtdf> iceiceice: and lua_jailbreak_exception doesnt derive from anyother class
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20141124 00:37:26< shadowm> What you first implied is that { std::exception, tlua_jailbreak_exception } -> A would be a problem, when AFAICT that should land in the tlua_jailbreak_exception handler.
20141124 00:37:34< iceiceice> yeah you are right
20141124 00:37:36< shadowm> Because of what gfgtdf just said (Which I said above too.)
20141124 00:37:53< iceiceice> the only way it's a problem is if someone defines more exceptions that intermix std exception and jailbreak
20141124 00:38:23< iceiceice> so its okay to have exceptions that derive from std exception and jailbreak,
20141124 00:38:25< gfgtdf> iceiceice: since we have full controll over lua_jailbreak_exception we can solve this problem for lua_jailbreak_exception entirely by makeing all inheritance of lua_jailbreak_exception citual
20141124 00:38:53< iceiceice> gfgtdf: yeah probably we should do that i guess
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20141124 00:39:43< shadowm> I don't know what 'citual' means. :\
20141124 00:39:52< iceiceice> i assume it is virtual :)
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20141124 00:40:07< iceiceice> even though that's like an edit distance of 3
20141124 00:41:14< iceiceice> gfgtdf: what would happen if we made lua_jailbreak_exception derive from standard exception?
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20141124 00:42:12< gfgtdf> iceiceice: we could lua_jailbreak_exception inherit virtually from std::exception and make sure nnever to inherit a class that doesnt inherit std::exception non-vistual
20141124 00:42:15< shadowm> src/gui/auxiliary/iterator/exception.hpp:class tlogic_error : public std::logic_error, public tlua_jailbreak_exception
20141124 00:42:20< gfgtdf> iceiceice: (like std::runtime_error)
20141124 00:42:43< shadowm> IIRC std::logic_error inherits from std::exception.
20141124 00:42:54< iceiceice> yeah
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20141124 00:42:59< travis-ci> gfgtdf/wesnoth-old#386 (wesnothd_sides - 991823a : gfgtdf): The build passed.
20141124 00:42:59< travis-ci> Build details : http://travis-ci.org/gfgtdf/wesnoth-old/builds/41912124
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20141124 00:43:10< iceiceice> pretty much any standard exception you want to go through lua needs to get paired with lua jailbreak
20141124 00:43:20< iceiceice> and i guess its simpler atm if lua jailbreak is not also a standard exception
20141124 00:43:47< gfgtdf> shadowm: but i dont see anywhere where we chatch std::loic_error, so we might just be able to replace it with std::exceotion
20141124 00:43:51< iceiceice> but if someone wasn't careful and then derived tlogic_error or something
20141124 00:44:01< iceiceice> i think it would become ambiguous
20141124 00:44:38< shadowm> gfgtdf: I'd expect mordante wanted it for the meaningful name.
20141124 00:45:26< iceiceice> if we leave the assert there i guess it's okay
20141124 00:45:31< iceiceice> oh, another thing to keep in mind,
20141124 00:45:38< iceiceice> i guess that most of the places that we write "throw 42"
20141124 00:45:46< gfgtdf> shadowm: we already habe the name of the  class "tlogic_error", we gain no name if we derive from std::logic_error
20141124 00:45:48< iceiceice> it will behave very differently if we called it through lua or if we didn't
20141124 00:45:58< shadowm> Do we actually throw ints. :|
20141124 00:46:01< iceiceice> yes
20141124 00:46:09< iceiceice> wml_exception.cpp
20141124 00:46:26< iceiceice> hmm it wasnt there, i have to look again
20141124 00:46:42< iceiceice> wml exception.hpp
20141124 00:46:56< gfgtdf> we also throw char* at sometimes: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/synced_checkup.cpp#L95
20141124 00:46:57< shadowm> There are more, but it seems in that particular case it's unreachable code.
20141124 00:47:31< shadowm> (Because why would we use compiler-dependent noreturn attributes, really.)
20141124 00:47:59< shadowm> (In C++11 there's a standarized symbol attribute syntax and [[noreturn]] is one of the like two attributes specified.)
20141124 00:48:01< iceiceice> i wonder if it is really helping the compiler though, it might just confuse the hell out of it
20141124 00:48:31< iceiceice> since it doesn't know if you went through lua or not
20141124 00:48:39< iceiceice> and i guess it might search for a catch(...) ?
20141124 00:48:50< iceiceice> i have no idea
20141124 00:48:58< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i think we shoudl have  our custom asster_false macro, 
20141124 00:49:14< shadowm> (Although I guess [[noreturn]]'s intended use is not for always-throwing functions? Not sure.)
20141124 00:49:33< iceiceice> another option i guess is to replace "throw 42" with "std::terminate()"
20141124 00:50:03< iceiceice> since compiler will know immediately in that compilation unit what it means and what it shuld do
20141124 00:50:14< shadowm> make_enum.hpp also throws 42 in the event you compiled with NDEBUG or otherwise disabled assert.
20141124 00:50:25< iceiceice> yeah i just mimicked the wml_exception.hpp
20141124 00:50:35< iceiceice> since i didn't have a better idea at the time
20141124 00:50:40< iceiceice> i think we discussed it maybe
20141124 00:51:47< gfgtdf> iceiceice: like #define assert_false(message) (void)(assert(!message), throw "assertion ignored")
20141124 00:51:59< shadowm> The "throw 42 after unconditionally-failing assert" thing appears to be coming some kind of idiom, yes.
20141124 00:52:08< shadowm> *be turning into
20141124 00:52:42< gfgtdf> iceiceice: or even #define assert_false(message) (void)(assert(!message), std::terminate(), throw "assertion ignored")
20141124 00:53:12< shadowm> std::terminate() is not supposed to return (C++11 even makes it [[noreturn]]), so why the third statement?
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20141124 00:53:29< gfgtdf> shadowm: becasue teh compliermigth not knwo taht it doesnt return
20141124 00:54:39< shadowm> Anyway, that's a separate case from the wml_exception.hpp case, which AFAICT it's about informing the compiler that the code in question throws unconditionally although it's the callee that does it.
20141124 00:55:30< iceiceice> shadowm: anyways, for your original question,
20141124 00:55:32< shadowm> (i.e. wml_exception() always throws a twml_exception before the end.)
20141124 00:55:50< iceiceice> if you boost::bind some C++ function and pass it to lua using my framework,
20141124 00:55:58< iceiceice> it won't behave differently with respect to exceptions than before,
20141124 00:56:08< iceiceice> its just that now, you can access member variables for instance.
20141124 00:56:21< iceiceice> because you don't have to be some static function somewhere
20141124 00:56:35< gfgtdf> shadowm:  the complier, at least msvc, will give a warning for int a(bool b) { if(b) {return 5; } else { assert(false); } } becasue the else path lacks the reutrn statement.
20141124 00:56:56< iceiceice> i guess in principle if you push bad function pointers to lua, you will get lua catching some boost::bad_function_call exceptions
20141124 00:57:03< shadowm> gfgtdf: Yes, especially if you compile with NDEBUG. :p
20141124 00:57:27< iceiceice> i don't really see a good way to fix that right now
20141124 00:57:29< shadowm> Otherwise, I think std::abort is [[noreturn]] in C++11.
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20141124 00:57:49< shadowm> So that might be a C++11 trap to watch for I guess.
20141124 00:57:52< iceiceice> i don't think wesnoth should necessarily crash in this scenario
20141124 00:58:46< shadowm> iceiceice: Okay.
20141124 00:59:41< gfgtdf> shadowm: even without ndebug, wesnoth will by default ask me a question like "An assertion occured! <assertion descrition> do you want to 1) terminate the programm, 2) ignore the assertion 3) retry \n (press retry to attacha debugger to teh aplication)" (with a quiet bad translation)
20141124 00:59:49< shadowm> iceiceice: I'd be tented to call it "C++ function object" in __tostring, though, because hopefully some day we'll use std::function isntead of boost::function.
20141124 00:59:52< shadowm> tempted
20141124 01:00:28< iceiceice> that's a good idea
20141124 01:01:10< shadowm> gfgtdf: Yeah, that's not how it works with libc on Linux. NDEBUG just turns it into a (void) statement.
20141124 01:01:57< shadowm> That's kind of why if I were to write my own cross-platform software, the first thing I'd do is write my own custom ASSERT macro.
20141124 01:02:13< shadowm> And forget about DEBUG/NDEBUG differences.
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20141124 01:02:41< gfgtdf> shadowm: i think asking the user to attach a debugger when a assertion occured is quite nice.
20141124 01:04:01< shadowm> Yeah, I mean, on Windows the CRT can do that because there's a reliable and mandatory windowing platform (the Win32 API) to bring up a visual prompt. We don't have such luxuries here.
20141124 01:04:38< shadowm> Worst case is you are running on a console and the parent process has reopened /dev/null as stdin.
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20141124 01:05:06< shadowm> (Or didn't have a parent terminal to begin with.)
20141124 01:06:21< shadowm> I tend to think it would be nice if we could make that kind of situation ever friendlier for our users who don't have the slightest idea of what an "assertion failure" is or what to do about it, but there's pretty much no way that's going to happen for all platforms.
20141124 01:10:00< gfgtdf> shadowm: an assertion error is usually a progrmmer error, (but maybe we misuse it sometimes)
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20141124 01:11:48< shadowm> Yes, sure it's a programmer error. The problem is that programmers errors are all too common here. :p
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20141124 01:25:33< irker278> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 3b1c52f3c823 / src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): move lua boost::function wrapper to scripting/lua_cpp_function.?pp http://git.io/XPIdwA
20141124 01:27:55< iceiceice> hmm i think i will not attempt to read sylph's post
20141124 01:28:14< iceiceice> i'm out for the night, bb
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20141124 01:31:08< shadowm> Yeah...
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20141124 02:32:45< irker278> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 851f64407463 / src/scripting/lua_rng.cpp: fix a warning: placement new syntax does not require var assignment http://git.io/sBqdZw
20141124 02:32:47< irker278> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master f21dcf0efe8d / src/scripting/lua_rng.cpp: complain more loudly about memory leaks http://git.io/8z8GAQ
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20141124 03:17:49< irker278> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 98a537c7a3bf / src/ (playmp_controller.cpp playsingle_controller.cpp): remove resources.hpp links from playmp, playsingle controllers http://git.io/Q-9Hww
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20141124 03:25:49< irker278> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:master eebc91f70b90 / projectfiles/Xcode/Wesnoth.xcodeproj/project.pbxproj: Update Xcode project file http://git.io/ITHW_g
20141124 03:26:15< mattsc> Is it possible to get notifications from github when a certain file was changed?
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20141124 03:27:51< mattsc> Also, what should I do about this:  http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=41247#p578015
20141124 03:29:29< mattsc> I guess I’m the one doing those packages, but I really don’t want a personal donation from somebody so that I have a registered developer account (which Alarantalara did have).
20141124 03:29:54< mattsc> If it could be done as a donation to Wesnoth, that’d be a different story, but I have no idea if that is even possible.
20141124 03:30:42< mattsc> And that’s all ignoring the fact that I’d really like to transfer the OS X packacking to somebody else.  :P
20141124 03:34:10< shadowm> Perhaps you could make an arrangement with our legal?
20141124 03:34:26< shadowm> That doesn't solve the last point of course, but.
20141124 03:35:12< mattsc> right (on the last point; but that also doesn’t look like it’s going to happen anytime soon)
20141124 03:35:22< mattsc> Whom do I contact about legal stuff?
20141124 03:35:26< shadowm> noy.
20141124 03:35:51< mattsc> Okay, that’s what I thought.  I’ll try that.  Thanks.
20141124 03:36:38< mattsc> I’ll write Simons a PM in the meantime so that it doesn’t look like we’re ignoring him.
20141124 03:36:52< shadowm> Hm, why does it have to be a PM?
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20141124 03:42:12< mattsc> It doesn’t have to be at all.  I just have to think harder about how to say things when it is posted to everybody, and I’m naturally lazy.  :|
20141124 03:42:15< iceiceice> mattsc: fwiw (and this is probably a minority opinion), i think it's pretty evil that apple gives "not a registered developer" warnings at all
20141124 03:42:27< iceiceice> we shouldn't give apple $100 just to support this racket
20141124 03:42:32< iceiceice> IMO
20141124 03:42:48< iceiceice> its basically anti-competitive behavior
20141124 03:43:20< shadowm> I can't say I disagree.
20141124 03:43:25< mattsc> iceiceice: I don’t disagree with that
20141124 03:43:34< shadowm> But, is it ever going to change?
20141124 03:43:42< iceiceice> i can see that it sucks to have these warnings and it's pragmatic to give them the money but i don't like it
20141124 03:43:51< vultraz> I believe Windows gives warnings too
20141124 03:44:51< vultraz> "Publisher Unknown" is what windows says for the developer
20141124 03:44:58< vultraz> s/developer/installer
20141124 03:45:13< iceiceice> "Publisher did not give us $100"
20141124 03:45:45< vultraz> I believe the fee is to guard against malware posing as legit enterprises
20141124 03:46:21< vultraz> The logic being if malware wants to disguise itself it has to pay
20141124 03:46:43< shadowm> I don't see how the fee automatically improves a system that could be free or extremely cheap.
20141124 03:46:54< iceiceice> malware is probably far more profitable than distributing something like wesnoth
20141124 03:47:01< iceiceice> they can easily afford the fees :p
20141124 03:47:29< vultraz> And if they do, Apple gets moniez
20141124 03:47:46< iceiceice> i think this is much more about Apple gets moniez than anything else
20141124 03:48:09< iceiceice> and small startups being crushed by the "fear / uncertainty / doubt" in their users when they see "unknown developer"
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20141124 03:48:37< vultraz> I'm sure most projects/individuals could afford it
20141124 03:48:43< vultraz> $100 isn't that much
20141124 03:49:05< shadowm> What country are you on.
20141124 03:49:15< shadowm> Don't answer, I already know.
20141124 03:49:33< shadowm> In reality, $100 is a preposterous amount of money for most people I know.
20141124 03:49:48< shadowm> People who can only barely afford basic services.
20141124 03:49:51< irker278> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master ad7c5c029c70 / src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): make 'extract_preload_scripts' a class member function http://git.io/nsXXWA
20141124 03:49:53< irker278> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master c19b63d85720 / projectfiles/Xcode/Wesnoth.xcodeproj/project.pbxproj: Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth http://git.io/cQQVJg
20141124 03:49:58< vultraz> You live in Chile 
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20141124 03:50:24< shadowm> Yes, and therefore I am the exception. Thanks for that first-world-centric mentality.
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20141124 03:52:06< vultraz> Hm. true
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20141124 03:52:42< shadowm> Personally, I'd rather put those $100 to use in art commissions, which we need more than that stupid certificate of brand legitimacy.
20141124 03:53:23< vultraz> Certificates of legitimacy create trust in our brand
20141124 03:53:24< shadowm> I'm neither n0y nor J3trel so I can't say whether they'd agree with me, though.
20141124 03:53:30< shadowm> WE ARE NOT A BRAND.
20141124 03:53:41< shadowm> We are just a small open-source project!
20141124 03:53:53< vultraz> small? 
20141124 03:54:05< shadowm> Yes. Look at KDE or Linux for "big".
20141124 03:54:12< iceiceice> also fwiw it may give the wrong impression that the apple port not in need of attention from one or a few very serious apple developers
20141124 03:54:30< iceiceice> i rather prefer the strategy of "known OS X bugs" being a long list of issues with "please submit patches"
20141124 03:54:36< iceiceice> in each release announcement
20141124 03:55:07< iceiceice> it conflicts very slightly with also sending the message "we pay $100 a year to have apple app signing keys"
20141124 03:55:18< vultraz> We may be a small indie game, but it's still worth protecting your brand
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20141124 03:55:28< shadowm> I can count our permanent artists in my hand and the number of permanent musicians and sound artists we have is equal to the number of Macs I own (which is to say, zero).
20141124 03:55:47< shadowm> None of our developers have a permanent deal with us and they are free to leave at any time.
20141124 03:56:17< shadowm> So no, we are not even medium sized, we just got lucky with our number of contributions over time.
20141124 03:56:39< vultraz> I'm measuring us by player base
20141124 03:56:44< vultraz> We have a lot of downloads
20141124 03:56:53< iceiceice> yeah but i fear the player base is shrinking anyways
20141124 03:56:59< vultraz> Oh?
20141124 03:57:10< iceiceice> mp is definitely much smaller than it once was
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20141124 03:57:19< iceiceice> it's not everything but i'm sure its correlated
20141124 03:57:42< vultraz> Well, we could expand our outreach if we put ourself on Steam - but for that we need a trailer!
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20141124 03:58:25< iceiceice> i guess i will start sacrificing my livestock to the trailer gods
20141124 03:59:43< iceiceice> i have 1 hamster, how much trailer do you think i can get for that?
20141124 03:59:59< iceiceice> (note: i made that up, i don't even have one hamster)
20141124 04:00:01< vultraz> 5 seconds
20141124 04:00:07< shadowm> In what twisted world are hamsters considered livestock.
20141124 04:00:17< iceiceice> look i'm pretty desperate here
20141124 04:00:19< iceiceice> :)
20141124 04:00:19< bumbadadabum> I know windows movie maker, I can make the trailer
20141124 04:00:32< vultraz> bumbadadabum: can you make it GOOD?
20141124 04:00:40< shadowm> WMM good.
20141124 04:00:47< vultraz> ^
20141124 04:00:51< bumbadadabum> no ofc not
20141124 04:00:58< vultraz> We need a Sony Vegas user or similar
20141124 04:01:12< bumbadadabum> I'll add the rainbow effect
20141124 04:01:17< bumbadadabum> and make skrillex background music
20141124 04:01:27< shadowm> Yep we need people who already threw money at whoever rather than people making it as a one-off thing.
20141124 04:03:07< iceiceice> fwiw if someone actually wants to make a trailer i had some ideas to try to make a "trailer mode" in the replay viewer
20141124 04:03:10< shadowm> But going back to the actual issue at hand, I'd rather see more unit animations finished as polish than a little warning (which most people using OSS probably disable anyway) on startup.
20141124 04:03:19< iceiceice> so that it will like zoom in nicely and follow units or action or something
20141124 04:03:45< vultraz> iceiceice: then it would look like zoomed in pixel art
20141124 04:03:55< shadowm> I'm no economist or mathematician, but I'm sure those $100 could pay at least three batches of standing+move unit animations.
20141124 04:04:09< iceiceice> vultraz: as long as it doesn't look like the powershot trailer
20141124 04:04:18< vultraz> *shudder*
20141124 04:04:18< iceiceice> i dont care if xbrz filter is applied or not
20141124 04:04:52< vultraz> Phanterm of Frogatto would be the ideal producer but he's not available
20141124 04:04:57< shadowm> (Or even more, depending on the artist's starvedness attribute.)
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20141124 04:05:46< irker278> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 2c6af2f45903 / src/ (9 files in 3 dirs): fix a camelcase identifier LuaKernel -> game_lua_kernel http://git.io/N9Urcg
20141124 04:06:54< mattsc_> Damned Internet!
20141124 04:07:02< mattsc_> Anyways, I’m back now ...
20141124 04:07:39< shadowm> We could even use those $100 for additional infrastructure.
20141124 04:07:50< mattsc_> shadowm: my guess is that most people do have the warning enable (I do), but you can disable it specifically for any individual package or download.
20141124 04:07:54< iceiceice> we could just buy lots of chocolates and have them mailed to our houses :)
20141124 04:08:08 * vultraz approves
20141124 04:08:33< iceiceice> "infrastructure" :)
20141124 04:08:52< mattsc_> shadowm, iceiceice and others: while I very much agree with you on the general sentiment, a donor can choose what the money is being used for.
20141124 04:09:16< shadowm> Yes, the thing is that we have no such system in place on purpose.
20141124 04:09:26< mattsc_> So if SM wants to spend the money on getting rid of that warning, then we have the choice to either say yes or no.
20141124 04:09:34< shadowm> (Don't ask me why.)
20141124 04:09:41< mattsc_> Or we could ask him whether he’s willing to support starving artists instead.
20141124 04:10:14< vultraz> I've been pondering whether there's any way we could generate sources of revenue 
20141124 04:10:14< shadowm> Who said anything about supporting starving artists, I clearly said 'exploit'.
20141124 04:10:42< mattsc_> I didn’t say that you said anything like that.
20141124 04:11:02< shadowm> vultraz: I have an idea.
20141124 04:11:08< shadowm> Ads in the MP server.
20141124 04:11:15< shadowm> With flash and all.
20141124 04:11:46< iceiceice> big banner in addon client also
20141124 04:11:49< mattsc_> shadowm: now you’re talking!
20141124 04:11:59< shadowm> Why do you want revenue (outside app store + GSoC) and how?
20141124 04:12:19< mattsc_> ;)
20141124 04:15:52< mattsc_> What’s a powershot trailer?  Something like the Slap Chop Commercial?  :P
20141124 04:16:15< shadowm> Don't tempt me to dig up the link.
20141124 04:16:30< mattsc_> But that’s exactly what I am doing, hehe.
20141124 04:16:52< mattsc_> I know somebody will succumb to the temptation...
20141124 04:16:57< shadowm> http://forums.wesnoth.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&un=powershot . See the signature at the bottom.
20141124 04:17:24< shadowm> If you need counsel afterwards, my room is always open.
20141124 04:17:48< shadowm> *counseling
20141124 04:17:51< mattsc_> Can I use the offered $100 to pay for the counseling?
20141124 04:18:06< shadowm> Yes.
20141124 04:19:21< mattsc_> Wow, cool.  Why hadn’t anybody ever sent me that link before ?!
20141124 04:19:50< vultraz> I had the idea once to allow users to charge money for their addons if they choose, with a small percentage of profits going to wesnoth. But that would likely never fly.
20141124 04:20:17< shadowm> I'd quit.
20141124 04:20:49< vultraz> What, you don't want people paying $5 for AtS?
20141124 04:21:19< vultraz> (It would be optional, of course)
20141124 04:21:45< shadowm> I don't want to support an ecosystem where add-ons would become popular in function of the amount of money the authors get from them.
20141124 04:22:02< shadowm> The add-ons server is unfair enough as it is.
20141124 04:22:17< vultraz> More like they would get money based on the amount of popularity they get
20141124 04:22:29< vultraz> I think we all know who would bet getting ALL the moniez
20141124 04:23:00< bumbadadabum> <shadowm> I don't want to support an ecosystem where add-ons would become popular in function of the amount of money the authors get from them.
20141124 04:23:00< bumbadadabum> this
20141124 04:23:09< shadowm> Yes, I'm sure they would be all giddy about it, and they certainly don't need to be fed more ideas like that.
20141124 04:24:14< vultraz> Though, I don't think there's any rule against setting up independent donations
20141124 04:24:18< shadowm> Maybe when future shadowm is swimming in money, he'll agree with you, but for now I'm positive I would quit.
20141124 04:24:41< bumbadadabum> keep dreaming
20141124 04:24:51< bumbadadabum> you can't swim in money it's too heavy
20141124 04:25:21< shadowm> If a decrepit duck can do it when why can't I.
20141124 04:27:30< vultraz> shadowm, bumbadadabum: https://what-if.xkcd.com/118/
20141124 04:28:18< bumbadadabum> shadowm: He can also take an anvil to the head and not die
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20141124 04:49:36< iceiceice> shadowm: one of my friends on the mp server once told me that i should set up a "gittip" account,
20141124 04:49:53< iceiceice> not that he has any money to give me but that the thinks that there are players who might tip individual developers
20141124 04:50:05< iceiceice> i thought this was sort of silly... i don't think i set up one of these
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20141124 17:45:11< iceiceice> shadowm: are you also getting a bunch of this on master?
20141124 17:45:12< iceiceice> 20141124 12:44:06 error config: Undefined macro in #ifver/#ifnver first argument
20141124 17:45:13< iceiceice> at ~add-ons/AtS_Music/_main.cfg:57
20141124 17:45:13< iceiceice> 20141124 12:44:06 error config: error reading usermade add-on '/home/chris/.local/share/wesnoth/1.13/data/add-ons/AtS_Music/_main.cfg'
20141124 17:45:13< iceiceice> 20141124 12:44:06 error config: Undefined macro in #ifver/#ifnver first argument
20141124 17:45:13< iceiceice> at ~add-ons/AtS_Music/_main.cfg:57
20141124 17:53:50< vultraz> iceiceice: have you noticed any preprocessor slowdown in 1,12?
20141124 17:54:15< iceiceice> no but i didnt look for it
20141124 17:54:38< iceiceice> do you mean like recent or vs 1.10
20141124 17:54:46< iceiceice> i think it is slower than it was in 1.10
20141124 17:55:52< vultraz> I noticed some difference between 1.11.18 and 1.12.0
20141124 17:56:09< vultraz> seems slower around Reading unit files
20141124 18:01:15< iceiceice> it could be either the text domain fix, or the boost filesystem fix
20141124 18:01:26< iceiceice> or something else
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20141124 18:03:58< iceiceice> it might not have to do with wesnoth at all, it could be your computer
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20141124 18:32:57< vultraz> iceiceice: I doubt it
20141124 18:33:44< iceiceice> in my experience the slow thing is never what you expect... you could try profiling the code if you really think it is slower
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20141124 19:50:03< shadowm> iceiceice: I don't play master.
20141124 19:50:17< iceiceice> do you reproduce it on 1.12?
20141124 19:50:32< shadowm> If you are getting that, then your WML cache might have become corrupted due to a known bug in the WML cachec ode.
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20141124 19:50:47< shadowm> Try purging it and restarting.
20141124 19:50:51< iceiceice> hmmok
20141124 19:51:53< shadowm> Also, no, I don't reproduce it on 1.12, otherwise I wouldn't have released a new version yesterday.
20141124 19:53:05< shadowm> iceiceice: The textdomain fix will be in 1.12.1, it's not "between 1.11.18 and 1.12.0" which is what vultraz said.
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20141124 19:53:29< shadowm> It's not in the patched 1.12.0 build for Windows either.
20141124 19:53:35< iceiceice> ok
20141124 19:58:00< shadowm> loonycyborg: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41260
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20141124 20:41:04< Dugi> Hello.
20141124 20:41:32< Dugi> Any idea why messages with [option]s don't work in prestart events on 1.12?
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20141124 20:52:57< shadowm> Ivanovic: Reminder that I need access on SF.net to update the screenshots.
20141124 20:55:09< Ivanovic> shadowm: added you to the admin group
20141124 20:55:17< Ivanovic> (that is: moved you from developer to admin)
20141124 20:57:24< shadowm> Hm, I have 9 screenshots on w.w.o/Screenshots for 1.12 but maybe I should add a few more for greater variety, especially regarding terrain combinations.
20141124 20:57:48< shadowm> Plus I was waiting for 1.12 to be officially announced and in use so I could take a screenshot of the lobby.
20141124 20:59:06< shadowm> Wow, going into SF.net without an ad blocker on Windows shows no less than *two* ads on the same page with fake download buttons.
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20141124 21:22:42< iceiceice> loonycyborg: i liked this idea: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9512919/getting-around-chromes-malicious-file-warning
20141124 21:22:48< iceiceice> "Password protect your zip, rar, or whatever, so Chrome won't be able to look inside, and supply the password to users: it's not a secret password"
20141124 21:23:41-!- tomreyn [~tomreyn@61-197-28-81.ftth.cust.kwaoo.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20141124 21:24:29< loonycyborg> maybe it thinks NSIS is a malware :P
20141124 21:25:23< shadowm> That's preposterous.
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20141124 21:28:42< loonycyborg> I have optimal solution for this problem: tell users to not to use chrome :P
20141124 21:29:44< shadowm> "As of July 2014, StatCounter estimates that Google Chrome has a 45% worldwide usage share of web browsers, indicating that it is the most widely used web browser in the world."
20141124 21:29:49< shadowm> Good luck with that.
20141124 21:29:57< iceiceice> its too bad we cant have it encrypted while its running, then we can use the same trick to defeat apple
20141124 21:30:19< shadowm> Are you absolutely sure it did not get contaminated during packaging somehow?
20141124 21:30:54< loonycyborg> You can never be sure of that, so I asked the user for details.
20141124 21:31:20< iceiceice> i think we should develop some kind of homomorphic encryption implementation so OS X users can run the encrypted binary :p
20141124 21:31:28< loonycyborg> If chrome doesn't provide enough details for me to verify virus then screw it
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20141124 21:34:25< gfgtdf> Dugi: [message] with options during prestart were disabled during mpync refactor, mainly because the wiki said "For things displayed on-screen such as character dialog, use start instead" so i assumed it was never supported. Also there is stil the problem that if one client has to do a [message] with options during prestart, then the other client has to wait with a black screen.
20141124 21:36:43< shadowm> He won't read that because he quit and doesn't read IRC logs AFAIK.
20141124 21:37:08< iceiceice> that's fine i guess he won't get an answer
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20141124 21:38:35< gfgtdf> shadowm: i alrady had typed taht message before he left
20141124 21:41:03< zookeeper> wow, i actually played a 1.12 multiplayer match.
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20141124 21:41:28< iceiceice> did your computer crash? :p
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20141124 21:44:53< zookeeper> iceiceice, almost!
20141124 21:46:12< Ravana_> when I tried to observe 1.12 mp match today, wesnoth indeed did crash, but since stderr was empty I had nothing to report
20141124 21:46:46< iceiceice> :/
20141124 21:47:11< iceiceice> if that happened i guess what i would do is relaunch it using gdb, and try to make it crash again and get a backtrace
20141124 21:47:26< iceiceice> backtrace is better than stderr oftentimes anyways
20141124 21:48:35< iceiceice> i guess that is only possible if you are on linux
20141124 21:48:43< iceiceice> maybe OS X, i have no idea if gdb is available there
20141124 21:49:27< Ravana_> only got windows
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20141124 22:02:19< gfgtdf> iceiceice: currently teh clients somethimes ask the server for a "random seed", so you think that there will ever be other inputs for that the client will "ask" the server that effects the gamestate ?
20141124 22:03:59< iceiceice> its hard to see what
20141124 22:04:45< iceiceice> i mean as far as i knew they did not ask for anything except rng values, but now i guess they ask other users for message choices and for global variables
20141124 22:04:56< iceiceice> and i guess whiteboard info gets sent around
20141124 22:05:12< iceiceice> the server doesn't know anything useful though
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20141124 22:13:32< irker298> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 33ed63a2d500 / src/scripting/ (lua_cpp_function.cpp lua_cpp_function.hpp): rename set_cpp_funcs to 'set_functions' in lua_cpp namespace http://git.io/vFCL5A
20141124 22:13:32< irker298> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master abebbd8b7eb7 / src/scripting/ (lua_cpp_function.cpp lua_cpp_function.hpp): add support for lua cpp function closures http://git.io/CfKRaQ
20141124 22:13:32< irker298> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 9eaba6465194 / src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): refactor game_lua_kernel not to use resources:: for gamestate http://git.io/PUUmWw
20141124 22:13:34< irker298> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 9d2c5029469c / src/game_events/pump.cpp: convert some null pointer dereferences into assertion failures http://git.io/1DPFJw
20141124 22:13:34< irker298> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 74787e80daa5 / src/replay_controller.cpp: fixup replay reset: reconstruct the lua kernel http://git.io/Xtoj_g
20141124 22:14:44< shadowm> Dugi: See the logs for gfgtdf's answer to your question.
20141124 22:15:43< gfgtdf> iceiceice: so we are now using boost::bund for the majority of teh lua functions ?
20141124 22:16:08< iceiceice> y
20141124 22:16:30< iceiceice> anything that requires to use resources::
20141124 22:16:34< Dugi> shadowm: Thanks for telling, I was under an impression that my question wasn't noticed.
20141124 22:17:19< iceiceice> for gamestate anyways, there are still some resources links for the game config manager and such
20141124 22:18:14< Dugi> gfgtdf: Thanks for the reply. Message with options worked perfectly on 1.10. As far as I remember, even mainline used some narrator monologues in prestart, was that changed or messages without options are still allowed?
20141124 22:18:55< iceiceice> gfgtdf: the reason i want to do this is that ultimately i want for the gamestate to be copy constructible
20141124 22:19:04< iceiceice> to make a deep copy
20141124 22:19:31< iceiceice> and this way the lua kernel can be copied also and it won't get broken by the resources:: links
20141124 22:20:05< gfgtdf> Dugi: the mp sync patch only effects [message]s with options.
20141124 22:20:10< gfgtdf> or with text input
20141124 22:20:23< gfgtdf> (and of ther things related to mp/replay sync)
20141124 22:20:38< Dugi> gfgtdf: Thanks. Good to know. I think that wiki might contain some info about that, should I add it there?
20141124 22:20:42< gfgtdf> s/ther/course
20141124 22:21:06< iceiceice> i will be back later
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20141124 22:25:46< gfgtdf> Dugi: if the proglems with messages in prestart are less than i originaly thought we can bring [message]with options back for 1.14, unforunately doing that in 1.12 would break complability, If you really need message with options in prestart events, you can trick wesnoth by using luas helper.get_user_choice inside a wesnoth.synchronize_choice, the core code is like "he uses wesnoth.synchronize_cho
20141124 22:25:48< gfgtdf> ice lets assume he knows what hes doing."
20141124 22:26:23< gfgtdf> Dugi: y sure
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20141124 22:27:09< Jozrael> Hey all, just wanted to note that I'm receiving http://i.imgur.com/MAQr5Gk.png when downloading 1.12
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20141124 22:28:07< gfgtdf> Jozrael: whathappens when you click on the right triangle button ?
20141124 22:28:25< Jozrael> I find it incredibly unlikely that malware got slipped into Wesnoth's sourceforge, but to be safe I'll wait til someone who's involved with the process signs off that it's Chrome being dumb :).
20141124 22:28:43< shadowm> Jozrael: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41260
20141124 22:29:35< shadowm> I think loonycyborg could use a more reliable report (e.g. from a specialized antivirus) than Chrome's warning.
20141124 22:29:52< Jozrael> Fair enough
20141124 22:29:58< Jozrael> Yea I've scanned it with other antiviruses and found nothing
20141124 22:30:43< Dugi> gfgtdf: I am doing this all on singleplayer, but it seems that it doesn't matter because of the unification of SP with MP, right?
20141124 22:31:50< shadowm> The "unification of SP and MP" GSoC project targeted master, not 1.12.
20141124 22:33:27< Dugi> Oh, I thought that it was already finished.
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20141124 22:34:31< Dugi> Anyway, I added that note to the wiki,
20141124 22:34:40< shadowm> I mean it targeted master while 1.12 was already feature-frozen.
20141124 22:34:58< shadowm> So none of the GSoC 2014 work ever landed in 1.12.
20141124 22:35:30< Dugi> So nice that 1.12 will be without those spritesheets.
20141124 22:35:41< Dugi> *is without those spritesheets
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20141124 22:35:45< shadowm> Stop hating on spritesheets. :|
20141124 22:36:05< shadowm> Also "will"?
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20141124 22:38:01< Dugi> Was at least the program/script to zip/unzip them into a spritesheet or out of a spritesheet created?
20141124 22:38:30< shadowm> The spritesheets project didn't really get anywhere, so the feature does not exist in master either.
20141124 22:43:47< Dugi> Good to know.
20141124 22:44:11< Dugi> shikadibot: seen fabi
20141124 22:44:11< shikadibot> Dugi: Queried user last spoke 4d 5h ago.  fabi is currently in this channel.
20141124 22:44:30< fabi> hi Dugi
20141124 22:47:30< Dugi> fabi: Hi.
20141124 22:47:50< Dugi> I wanted to ask you the things I asked before when you were busy with finishing 1.12.
20141124 22:48:11< Dugi> Do you have a bit of time?
20141124 22:48:20< fabi> yes
20141124 22:48:49< zookeeper> Dugi, you had a thread about how to do fancy IPF add-on icons, right?
20141124 22:48:52< zookeeper> i can't find it
20141124 22:48:59< Dugi> zookeeper: Yes.
20141124 22:49:44< Dugi> zookeeper: It was mainly a wiki page, the thread was just a comment about it.
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20141124 22:50:10< zookeeper> ah, okay, found the page
20141124 22:52:01< zookeeper> Dugi, okay, so, AFAICT "it will be necessary to remove all spaces and new lines from it" is not true, check BoL for a working multiline example
20141124 22:52:32< shadowm> Is it using the parser operator + ?
20141124 22:52:37< zookeeper> IIRC you just need one ~ on the first line (hence my ~NOP()) and after that you can split across multiple lines
20141124 22:52:38< zookeeper> no
20141124 22:53:01< zookeeper> http://pastebin.com/nKxdbR0C
20141124 22:53:14< zookeeper> ...or at least it works for me
20141124 22:53:15< shadowm> That makes sense.
20141124 22:54:06< shadowm> Could you at least have a working fallback for the web index, though?
20141124 22:54:27< shadowm> AtS' icon starts with "scenery/trash.png~O(0)" for that reason.
20141124 22:55:23< zookeeper> ah, sure
20141124 22:55:48< Dugi> zookeeper: The point was that I added the breaks to make it more readable to humans. There is a notice that they have to be removed before being used.
20141124 22:56:21< fabi> shadowm: I am going to have a look at Dugi's rating system again. Do you want to help me reviewing the code?
20141124 22:56:45< zookeeper> Dugi, yes, i know
20141124 22:56:46< shadowm> I don't want to review the code in detail until the commits make sense.
20141124 22:57:19< fabi> shadowm: What is wrong?
20141124 22:57:42< shadowm> The commits being out of order and including unrelated changes in a completely disorganized fashion, as I recall.
20141124 22:58:00< shadowm> Plus having a generally larger scope than they should.
20141124 22:58:53< shadowm> Finally, at this point I'd place greater emphasis on getting the feature set peer-reviewed before the final code review.
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20141124 23:01:44< fabi> shadowm: Okay then let's do that peer-review know.
20141124 23:01:48< fabi> s/know/now
20141124 23:02:23< shadowm> I told Dugi I'd present the PR in the dev ML and he said he'd do it instead and that hasn't happened yet.
20141124 23:02:39< shadowm> That's what I mean by peer-reviewing the feature-set.
20141124 23:03:04< fabi> shadowm: Taking things to the ML and asking for a peer-review is usually a strategy to talk a thing to death.
20141124 23:03:11< Dugi> I wanted to ask fabi to help me to back it up with good arguments.
20141124 23:03:14< shadowm> That's exactly what I want us to do.
20141124 23:03:26< fabi> I see.
20141124 23:03:51< gfgtdf> Dugi: usualy every commit shoudl be compilable, for example for this commit: https://github.com/Dugy/wesnoth/commit/423b46d3a193ac857e727a6e34c1e8e2fd892dc3 i really doubt taht that's the case
20141124 23:04:36< gfgtdf> especially the after "<<<<<<< HEAD"
20141124 23:04:46< shadowm> Not usually, rather always unless you have a very good reason.
20141124 23:04:53< shadowm> *Not just
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20141124 23:06:05< Dugi> gfgtdf: I don't know why did that damn git generate that mess.
20141124 23:06:26< Dugi> gfgtdf: Ah, I forgot, in that case I haven't noticed that >>>head
20141124 23:06:30< shadowm> Conflict markers. Git does that when it can't reconcile a merge.
20141124 23:06:37< fabi> Dugi: You should stop working on the thing. If shadowm wants to stop it he will.
20141124 23:06:37< Dugi> gfgtdf: I plan to fix that.
20141124 23:06:38< shadowm> It does that specifically so you fix them before committing.
20141124 23:07:07< shadowm> fabi: What is this now?
20141124 23:08:06< shadowm> Also note that Git is very noisy when it finds a conflict, so if you are paying attention to Git's output on the console you shouldn't need to grep for >>> markers to notice that a file is need of review.
20141124 23:08:25< shadowm> Plus `git status` shows the conflicted paths as `both modified` or such.
20141124 23:08:49< Dugi> There was a lot of them in that file, because it was refactored between the two bases.
20141124 23:09:07< Dugi> That one somehow slipped my attention.
20141124 23:09:29< fabi> shadowm: I do not have the time to argue on the ml for the feature. You seem not to like the idea at all. And thus in my experience there is little chance to get the thing in. You should have told Dugi earlier and save him the time.
20141124 23:09:32< Dugi> I was trying to fix it, but I failed.
20141124 23:09:46< shadowm> Also, inspecting `git diff` and `git diff --cached` before committing is also a thing people should do.
20141124 23:09:59< shadowm> fabi: Let me repeat myself again.
20141124 23:10:43< shadowm> fabi: I do not feel comfortable with the feature's design, so I want to get a sense of whether I'm the only one, or more people think it needs to be refined further (or canned, in the worst case) before merging it.
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20141124 23:11:18< shadowm> I do not have a problem with merging a feature if a sufficient number of current and past developers want it merged.
20141124 23:11:32< fabi> What are your concerns?
20141124 23:12:05< fabi> Why can't we discuss it here on irc, implement it and see how people react to the result. It can be modified during the process.
20141124 23:12:06< shadowm> I'd rather save them for the mailing list at this point, although I believe I stated them clearly enough some time ago.
20141124 23:12:12< fabi> This is how things work.
20141124 23:12:25< shadowm> No, that's not how things work for server code.
20141124 23:12:27< fabi> Talking about it on the ml will just run into non sense.
20141124 23:15:17< gfgtdf> Dugi: it would be easier to revie, if the timetrack feature was in a different pull request.
20141124 23:16:07< Dugi> gfgtdf: I want to split it again, but I don't want to repair some visual syntax afterwards.
20141124 23:16:38< gfgtdf> Dugi: what do you mean by visual syntax ?
20141124 23:16:50< Dugi> All I want to know before is whether there aren't some more visual oddities, because I don't want to make several commits that repair many small things in code everywhere.
20141124 23:17:08< Dugi> I mean just how does the code look like.
20141124 23:17:30< Dugi> Whether I am using the functions that are a standard in wesnoth code etc.
20141124 23:19:15< shadowm> fabi: I think you'll find I normally agree on the mailing list being an inadequate discussion medium for this kind of thing, but for completely different reasons. But as it turns out, there is in my PM inbox a case I'm also trying to solve that resulted from code being merged in mainline with an absolute lack of transparency and peer-review. Wesnoth is currently suffering heavily from lack of communication in the development and ...
20141124 23:19:22< shadowm> ... decision-making process and I want to avoid getting us stuck with another such case for this new development cycle.
20141124 23:20:26< shadowm> And for that reason, I want to promote using the ML correctly rather than dumping everything on IRC and letting it be forgotten and making decisions based on a perceived tacit agreement.
20141124 23:21:01< shadowm> Which has happened before and resulted in a lot of unnecessary noise.
20141124 23:21:18< fabi> Which commits are you talking about?
20141124 23:30:33< fabi> shadowm: I don't know why you don't like the rating system. Dugi seems not to know either. I guess this is a communication problem. If you tell me your concerns or show me where you wrote them already we might find a good solution without ml involvement.
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20141124 23:31:13< shadowm> No authentication, risk of ratings being manipulated, etc.
20141124 23:32:01< fabi> Dugi: ^
20141124 23:32:31< shadowm> I don't intend to go into any more detail than that until I see a ML post.
20141124 23:33:12< fabi> And why?
20141124 23:33:38< fabi> You could give Dugi and maybe me the chance to solve the problems you see right now.
20141124 23:34:04< shadowm> Because IRC is not the right medium for discussing this and I'd rather have him solve all the problems rather than just my own.
20141124 23:34:06< fabi> shadowm: So the ml post can already include your ideas.
20141124 23:34:07< Dugi> I have written some parts that should prevent manipulation, but it's mostly IP-based. I don't know why should authentication be used instead, how will you prevent multiple accounts?
20141124 23:34:42< shadowm> How do I prevent multiple accounts on the forums, you mean?
20141124 23:35:02< shadowm> Easy, I don't, until there is suspicious activity.
20141124 23:35:03< fabi> It is always a good idea to discuss something on irc just to make the ml post more concrete and save a lot of time.
20141124 23:35:26< shadowm> fabi: Well, yes, but all this is currently stealing my time. :p
20141124 23:35:48< shadowm> I was working on something before this came up and now I have to postpone it indefnitely, which isn't very nice.
20141124 23:35:55< Dugi> And how do you identify suspicious sock-puppetting? By the same IP address.
20141124 23:36:18< shadowm> I don't go checking people's IPs constantly.
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20141124 23:37:00< shadowm> First I have to see suspicious activity. Only then the technical aspects come into play.
20141124 23:38:01< shadowm> And IPs aren't enough nowadays. I don't know if you've heard, but various RIRs are running out of free IP blocks to allocate to service providers.
20141124 23:38:16< shadowm> *IPv4 address blocks
20141124 23:38:51< shadowm> As a result, downstream ISPs are more likely to employ masquerading to reduce the number of IPv4 addresses they need to use at a time.
20141124 23:39:04< shadowm> This results in multiple unrelated clients sharing IPs.
20141124 23:39:51< shadowm> If detecting sockpuppets was as simple as comparing IPs, moderating the forums wouldn't be a time-consuming labor.
20141124 23:40:55< shadowm> Shared IPv4 addresses are particularly common among mobile broadband carriers in the U.S., which tend to be used a lot by mobile and tablet users.
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20141124 23:48:14< Dugi> And how many people do you think would post feedback there if it required forum registration or some other complicated registration process?
20141124 23:48:39< iceiceice> fabi: fwiw i basically think that some form of this feature would be a good thing,
20141124 23:48:51< iceiceice> but its hard to see why it would proceed without a mailing list or forum discussion
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20141124 23:49:04< iceiceice> the last time this was discussed was like 6 months ago and there was no consensus that emerged
20141124 23:49:17< fabi> Right
20141124 23:49:36< iceiceice> it's pretty reasonable that people will have strong feelings when you are going to take all the wesnoth add-ons and assign numeric rankings to them, which all new users will see.
20141124 23:49:54< fabi> Really?
20141124 23:50:03< fabi> Strong feelings because of a rating system.
20141124 23:50:28< fabi> Everything can be rated on the internet.
20141124 23:50:40< iceiceice> some people may take their personal work, their art, quite... personally, and judgment of it more so
20141124 23:50:42< fabi> It is not very exciting to me.
20141124 23:50:44< iceiceice> no one is selling their add-on
20141124 23:50:47< iceiceice> this is not ebay or amazon
20141124 23:51:32< iceiceice> i'm not saying they are right or wrong to oppose the rating system, im just saying i can understand why someone would have a feeling like that
20141124 23:52:06< iceiceice> it would be better to have a discussion before its all merged than after
20141124 23:54:37< fabi> I would be surprised if the ml will bring anything good to this issue.
20141124 23:56:29< shadowm> Since you seem to like sarcasm so much, why not allow everyone to review a PR that's about allowing everyone to review things?
20141124 23:56:48< shadowm> The answer seems trivial to me.
--- Log closed Tue Nov 25 00:00:24 2014