--- Log opened Wed Dec 17 00:00:30 2014
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20141217 03:58:20< shadowm> I just DoSed myself by trying to attack a unit with a ludicrous amount of HP.
20141217 03:59:24< un214> there have been numerous bugs with that in the past
20141217 03:59:26< shadowm> My desktop is still struggling to recover pages from swap. Bear in mind I have 16 GiB of RAM.
20141217 03:59:47< un214> I think mainly the dynamic-descend needs to figure out that it can't work and use a simplified calc
20141217 04:00:06< shadowm> No, I didn't get to attack.
20141217 04:00:24< shadowm> It's the attempt to bring up the attack dialog that ruined everything.
20141217 04:01:08< SpoOkyMagician> that was a common issue in SX. :\
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20141217 04:01:38< shadowm> Had to wait a couple of minutes for X to come back.
20141217 04:01:42< iceiceice> shadowm: yes that is typical,
20141217 04:01:52< iceiceice> i made a "not so easy coding" entry about it: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/NotSoEasyCoding#Add_a_new_damage_stats_calculation_mode_to_support_scenarios_with_extremely_high_stats
20141217 04:02:11< iceiceice> the engine is only really designed to handle units with small hp
20141217 04:02:19< shadowm> How about we just give up after n loops or whatever Wesnoth is trying to do?
20141217 04:02:55< iceiceice> i think that won't work,
20141217 04:02:59< iceiceice> the AI relies on those stats
20141217 04:03:13< iceiceice> you would have to abort the game
20141217 04:03:15 * shadowm swapoffs instead.
20141217 04:03:29< shadowm> Of waiting for every single other thing to come back on demand.
20141217 04:03:33< mattsc> What it’s trying to do is to calculate a new outcome for every possible previous outcome.  
20141217 04:03:40< un214> that's why I said just have it give up and compute approximate stats
20141217 04:03:51< iceiceice> yes that's the best solution
20141217 04:03:55< mattsc> agreed
20141217 04:03:56< un214> just like 1.0 did
20141217 04:03:57< iceiceice> i guess you could time it
20141217 04:04:06< iceiceice> un214: did 1.0 actually have an approximate stats routine?
20141217 04:04:15< un214> yeah it didn't have a correct one
20141217 04:04:39< un214> something like swing * dmg * %hit * (drain ? 1 .5 : 1)
20141217 04:05:00< mattsc> un214: are you who suggested using Gaussian statistics at some point?
20141217 04:05:26< un214> no, I'm the one who suggested pulling the estimator from the 1.0 codebase some time ago
20141217 04:05:43< iceiceice> i think it would be better to just do a montecarlo simulation,
20141217 04:06:05< un214> I think if you have > 10 swings on each side this is fine
20141217 04:06:07< shadowm> Now I get to watch everything get slowly cached again.
20141217 04:06:29< shadowm>             max_hitpoints=100000000
20141217 04:06:34< shadowm> That's what I tried to attack.
20141217 04:06:39< mattsc> okay - somebody said that one could just approximate using a Gaussian if it gets too big.  Doesn’t really matter all that much IMO.
20141217 04:06:49< iceiceice> i think these are basically equivalent,
20141217 04:06:58< iceiceice> montecarlo will converge to gaussian, its just that montecarlo is alot easier to write
20141217 04:06:58< mattsc> And you had slow and drain and … ?
20141217 04:07:09< iceiceice> since we already have the code to do a simulation
20141217 04:07:15< mattsc> Umm, no, a Gaussian is easier to write.
20141217 04:07:23< mattsc> It’s just harder to figure out on paper first.  ;)
20141217 04:07:44< iceiceice> monte carlo would be like " for ...  { call the damage simulation routine }"
20141217 04:07:49< iceiceice> its hard to get simpler than that
20141217 04:08:14< iceiceice> idk if we even have a "gaussian distribution" we'd probably need to merge boost math or something silly...
20141217 04:08:40< mattsc> C++ does not have an EXP() function built in???
20141217 04:08:56< un214> it's called pow
20141217 04:08:57< iceiceice> i guess we could do it by hand :)
20141217 04:09:27< mattsc> right
20141217 04:10:04< iceiceice> monte carlo also has the advantage that,
20141217 04:10:12< iceiceice> if someone adds a new feature like "double drain" or something
20141217 04:10:15< mattsc> f(x) = 1/ sqrt(2 pi) * exp ( - ((x - mu) / sigma))^2
20141217 04:10:27< iceiceice> you don't need to go back and recalculate the gaussian distribution coefficients
20141217 04:10:30< mattsc> I guess there are people who might consider that complicated.  :D
20141217 04:11:00< mattsc> I’ll get of my horse now and pick up my goblin spear again.
20141217 04:11:02< iceiceice> i would guess that many contributors have forgotten all about gaussian distributions etc.
20141217 04:11:58 * shadowm blinks.
20141217 04:12:26< iceiceice> did all of the specials like "drain" even exist in 1.0?
20141217 04:12:36< iceiceice> i would guess they probably didnt
20141217 04:13:02< shadowm> They did.
20141217 04:13:23< shadowm> Their effects were hardcoded in C++ instead of being configurable in WML.
20141217 04:13:37< iceiceice> and new ones weren't added?
20141217 04:13:43< iceiceice> berzerk and such always worked this way?
20141217 04:13:48< shadowm> Huh?
20141217 04:14:58< iceiceice> the question is, should the stats calculation be based on, running the attack routine repeatedly as a black box, or should you have a magic function that takes two units, looks at all their propreties, and computes appropriate coefficients for some gaussian approximation
20141217 04:15:32< iceiceice> the point is that, if any of the specials ever changed / change then this magic function will have to be updated by someone who knows things about stats
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20141217 04:16:01< travis-ci> cbeck88/wesnoth#87 (plugins - f938872 : Chris Beck): The build was broken.
20141217 04:16:01< travis-ci> Build details : http://travis-ci.org/cbeck88/wesnoth/builds/44288930
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20141217 04:16:12< shadowm> They can change and as I said, they used to be fully hardcoded and nowadays they are configurable. That means you are bound to find a million different specials in UMC, some of them not even visible.
20141217 04:16:43< iceiceice> ok i see
20141217 04:16:58< iceiceice> so another question is, if you want the game to automatically fall back to a backup "approximate stats"
20141217 04:17:06< shadowm> For example, right now I was testing code wherein I apply a synthetic hidden special to attack participants in an EH pair to affect the attack outcome post-Attack dialog.
20141217 04:17:12< iceiceice> how exactly should it do that, should it be based on number of iterations or a timer?
20141217 04:17:26< iceiceice> for high performance machines the approximate might not even be necessary,
20141217 04:17:38< iceiceice> and for low performance machines if you base it on number of iterations it might still be slow
20141217 04:17:53< iceiceice> if you use a timer though, it means that the AI will play differently depending on whether you have a good or bad computer
20141217 04:18:11< un214> doesn't it effect def weapon?
20141217 04:18:28< iceiceice> yes it does affect that iirc
20141217 04:18:44< shadowm> I don't know about performance, I only know Wesnoth did something that made its RSS grow beyond what my system can provide without paging everything out.
20141217 04:18:44< un214> if so wom't non deterministic cause a dissync
20141217 04:19:08< iceiceice> un214 i dont think so, i think the ai only runs on one machine, and its results get sent over the network
20141217 04:19:24< shadowm> And presumably got stuck waiting for allocations to succeed.
20141217 04:19:34< iceiceice> actually i'm pretty sure of this because even in 1.10 the default AI is technically nondeterministic i think
20141217 04:20:00< iceiceice> there was a bug that coverity found in some "power_projection" function or something,
20141217 04:20:01< mattsc> iceiceice: yes, that’s the case.
20141217 04:20:13< un214> AI doesnt cause dissync
20141217 04:20:15< iceiceice> that i think made the function have essentially random output
20141217 04:20:18< mattsc> It only matters what the AI does, not why.
20141217 04:21:38< iceiceice> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/1c142991acad0800b74ae39ee729b36ff1f4a2ef#diff-0e0262cd450afebf3fac7d4fae9b6259R1114
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20141217 04:31:05< mattsc> iceiceice: I think the cutoff should be at a certain amount of iterations that is never reached with mainline units but is not a problem even for low-end computers.
20141217 04:31:20< un214> here's the potential OOS that stands out to me
20141217 04:31:46< un214> client 1 orders attack against defender tha can choose two weapons, monte-carlo is selected, chooses weapon A
20141217 04:31:50< mattsc> The AI already does things like that with other calculations, for example the number of attack combinations that are considered before chosing one.  IIRC, that one’s capped at 1,000.
20141217 04:32:06< un214> client 2 on replay of fight doesn't pick monte-carlo as it's more powerful and chooses weapon B
20141217 04:32:08< un214> OOS
20141217 04:33:20< un214> should be easily avoided if known; however if not actively thought about would end up on the public server being about as obnoxious as the french merman OOS
20141217 04:33:31< mattsc> Is the weapon choice determined by the client on replay?
20141217 04:33:52< un214> it was last time I looked, which was a long time ago
20141217 04:34:10< mattsc> I think you’re right, I just don’t remember.
20141217 04:34:40< un214> some kind of anti-cheat code added between 1.0 and 1.2 detected clients deciding to break the rules by reapplying as many as possible locally
20141217 04:34:50< un214> leaving only one rule not checked, a fair rng
20141217 04:36:02< un214> between 1.2 and 1.4 a synced RNG was also used for no cheating until somebody hooked up a client that showd actual battle results of proposed attacks
20141217 04:36:27< un214> the RNG got moved to the server for 1.6
20141217 04:36:38< un214> now the only possible cheat is nofog
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--- Log closed Thu Dec 18 00:00:50 2014