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20141217 09:28:23< Necrosporus> I wonder what's more reasonable, to recruit everything on first turn or to recruit few units on first turn, capture several villages, then recruit some more (so you won't lose money on upkeep)
20141217 09:29:11< Necrosporus> Could it also be reasonable to let the enemy kill some of your units deliberately?
20141217 09:43:36< Rhonda> Usually the campaigns are balanced the way that you will almost always have to sacrifice some units, yes.
20141217 09:44:30< Necrosporus> Rhonda, I mean, let enemy kill units to decrease upkeep
20141217 09:44:55< Rhonda> The gain from that is pretty low I would assume.
20141217 09:45:06< Necrosporus> Also on easy it's often possible to finish the campaign without losing a single unit
20141217 09:45:08< Rhonda> Unless you have a map that plays with 60 turns or such.
20141217 09:45:36< Necrosporus> There are scenarios without turn limit
20141217 09:45:36< Rhonda> Sure, but then that's easy.  You can give it a try. :)
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20141217 09:48:46< Necrosporus> Rhonda, what do you mean give it a try? I have tried it lot of times
20141217 09:51:58< Rhonda> And?  Then you should have enough data to figure out what's more reasonable, not?
20141217 09:52:14< Rhonda> What are your findings? :)
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20141217 09:55:13< Necrosporus> Rhonda, well, I guess in some scenarios it might be reasonable, I'm talking about ones where you encounter several different enemies in different times
20141217 09:56:31< Necrosporus> So you could stash some gold to recruit units effective against certain kinds of enemy only when it's going to approach
20141217 10:01:32< Rhonda> Yes, of course this is some part of the tactics you need.  Only recruit the units you need, and when you need them only later and can bring them to the place they are needed from where you recruit them in time, then do it.
20141217 10:01:46< Rhonda> There is always place for optimization. ;)
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20141217 11:45:28< Lubert> when cheating in wesnoth is there any way to give my character a 1000 damage attack?
20141217 11:49:49< zookeeper> i'd imagine there's some lua command you could write to do that, with regular debug commands i don't think so (as i don't think for example ":unit attack.damage=1000" would work)
20141217 11:50:35< Lubert> saves time click click clicking enemies to death, will try
20141217 11:52:19< zookeeper> well surely clicking an enemy to death is faster than killing it with a unit
20141217 11:52:48< zookeeper> unless you meant you need to kill it with a unit and want to do that faster
20141217 11:53:05< Lubert> I notice how the game slows down when I give a unit 99999 hitpoints, must be something to do with the AI planning code
20141217 11:53:11< zookeeper> ...in which case i usually just spawn an ancient lich :p but maybe you need to kill it with a specific existing unit, i dunno
20141217 11:53:40 * Lubert has discovered the ancient lich spawn
20141217 11:53:42< Lubert> ooooh fun
20141217 11:53:50< zookeeper> yes, extreme values will very much slow down the damage calculations code
20141217 11:55:07 * Lubert adjusts it to 9999
20141217 11:55:21< Lubert> modesty never hurts
20141217 11:55:40< zookeeper> i'm sure 999 or even 99 would be quite enough
20141217 11:57:43< Lubert> heh, looks like I have a chance now
20141217 11:58:05< Lubert> can't hurt to add another 1 or 10 liches...
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20141217 19:12:06< Necrosporus> If a unit has several melee or ranged attacks how is it chosen which one to use to retaliate?
20141217 19:14:40< Ravana_> based on how that attack was defined, see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/UnitTypeWML#Attacks
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20141217 19:53:04< Necrosporus> Ravana_, seems like elvish sorceress could use slow attack against high-damage dealing units and magical attack against other units
20141217 19:53:20< Necrosporus> But there is no weight defined in the source
20141217 19:53:44< Ravana_> default weight = 1.0
20141217 19:54:19< Ravana_> which attack is used also depends on that scenarios and sides ai settings
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20141217 19:55:05< Ravana_> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/AiWML#The_.5Bai.5D_Tag:_Defining_Aspects caution and aggression
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20141217 19:56:09< Necrosporus> Ravana_, yes, and so it would be logical for AI to defend with highest damage-dealing weapon probably
20141217 19:56:36< Necrosporus> In other hands slow attack could reduce damage to defender
20141217 19:56:43< Necrosporus> it might be logical to defend with it
20141217 19:57:19< Ravana_> highest damage only if aggression=1
20141217 19:57:32< mattsc> Necrosporus, Ravana_: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=36953&p=530656
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20141217 20:05:03< Necrosporus> So if aggression is set higher than 1, units try to suicide whenever possible?
20141217 20:05:55< mattsc> if aggression>1, units prefer attacks which do more damage to them, yes
20141217 20:06:13< Necrosporus> Are there algorithms to determine better chance to kill the enemy unit by attacking with low-hp units first so they could deal some damage and be killed to free the space for other low-hp unit
20141217 20:06:52< mattsc> There’s nothing like that in the Wesnoth AI, if that’s what you mean.
20141217 20:07:13< Necrosporus> I thought it is, when I observed its behavior
20141217 20:07:47< Necrosporus> mattsc, is it at least possible to make the AI use this trick?
20141217 20:08:00< mattsc> The behavior happens, but not because that’s the intent of the action.
20141217 20:08:31< mattsc> Well, the aggression > 1 thing might go a bit in that direction, but otherwise not really.
20141217 20:08:57< mattsc> You could probably use the Simple Attack Micro AI with a clever condition to make it happen.
20141217 20:09:06< Necrosporus> Also seems like AI doesn't know how to use leadership
20141217 20:09:17< mattsc> That’s correct.
20141217 20:09:42< mattsc> It’s on my list to write an MAI that uses leadership, but it’s not as simple as it sounds.
20141217 20:09:50< mattsc> to do it well, I mean.
20141217 20:11:26< Necrosporus> Anyway current AI is dumb... I mean it's at least seems dumber than me
20141217 20:11:39< mattsc> I hope so!  ;)
20141217 20:12:34< Necrosporus> Is it possible to make a wesnoth AI which could play better than a somewhat experienced organic player?
20141217 20:13:05< Necrosporus> Chess playing programs are already much better than humans
20141217 20:13:12< mattsc> Umm, I’m sure it’s possible.  But it’s anything but easy.
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20141217 20:13:27< Necrosporus> Is wesnoth harder than chess?
20141217 20:13:29< mattsc> Yes, chess also has a few more players than Wesnoth does.
20141217 20:13:33< Necrosporus> or game of go?
20141217 20:14:06< mattsc> Wesnoth might not be harder to play, but its state space is _much_ larger than that of chess.
20141217 20:14:35< Necrosporus> mattsc, so anyway, when AI defends (on player turn), can AI control weapon it uses?
20141217 20:14:50< celticminstrel> Also chess has no randomness.
20141217 20:15:10< mattsc> It is possible to write AI code that does, yes.  (And some of mine does.)
20141217 20:15:32< mattsc> The default AI does not do that, but you can fake it by adapting attack/defense_weight.
20141217 20:15:59< Necrosporus> but that's unfair then. Why can't player chose retaliating attack even if he wants? (though default choice is usually good enough)
20141217 20:16:12< mattsc> Necrosporus: if you want to see some attempts of writing a more effective AI on a specific map, you could get the AI demos add-in (in 1.12) and check out the Freelands MP AI.
20141217 20:17:00< mattsc> Necrosporus: that’s a design choice that has been discussed many times.  Search the forums for the reasons why.
20141217 20:17:16< mattsc> Not saying it is ideal the way it is, just that there are reasons why it is done that way.
20141217 20:17:23< Necrosporus> mattsc, attack/defense weight is used also for player unit, so it's not an AI advantage
20141217 20:18:11< Necrosporus> I guess the main reason is it would be impossible go go for a cup of tea during AI turn
20141217 20:18:14< mattsc> I didn’t say that it is an advantage, just that it can be done by the scenario designer to affect with which weapon an AI unit might defend/attack.
20141217 20:20:15< Necrosporus> Also I guess current AI always ignore fog/shrould
20141217 20:20:28< mattsc> yes
20141217 20:20:38< Necrosporus> Though it seems like ambush abilities still work against it
20141217 20:20:50< mattsc> for the most part, yes
20141217 20:20:58< Necrosporus> For most?
20141217 20:21:03< Necrosporus> not always?
20141217 20:21:25< mattsc> There are some exceptions when hidden untis don’t seem to be hidden, but I’ve never figured out a pattern.
20141217 20:21:43< Necrosporus> So it's an uncaught bug?
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20141217 20:22:11< mattsc> No, I think it’s by design and if you asked Crab_, he could probably tell you what it is.  I just don’t know it.
20141217 20:22:26< mattsc> I do know that I have encountered it in my campaign.
20141217 20:23:30< Necrosporus> For example fugitive has concealment, but against human it won't work probably, because the human could notice his village changing flag and could remember there were enemy fugitives 
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20141217 21:00:42< ni291187> looking for some tips knalgan v northerner... I get overrun pretty early and can't seem to make up any ground later :/
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20141217 22:37:51< Necrosporus> Did Malin get the book of Crelanu or some other book describing the same thing?
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--- Log closed Thu Dec 18 00:00:50 2014