--- Log opened Thu Dec 18 00:00:50 2014
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20141218 00:51:43< Necrosporus> Why are wesnoth people so hateful about necromancer, even if they do not do anything bad?
20141218 00:52:05< Necrosporus> * necromancers
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20141218 00:58:54< celticminstrel> Necromancers have a bad reputation in general. This isn't a Wesnoth-specific thing.
20141218 01:01:19< Necrosporus> But it doesn't mean they should be treated that badly. They aren't necessary bad people
20141218 01:01:38< celticminstrel> Well, perhaps.
20141218 01:02:18< celticminstrel> Some people might object to the corpses of their allies being animated as weapons against them. (Wesnoth example would be the plague attack.)
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20141218 01:03:18< Necrosporus> Well, they didn't have to became hostile at the first place. Then their allies coprses would be used against their enemies
20141218 01:03:26< celticminstrel> Binding spirits to your command doesn't exactly sound like a nice thing to do either.
20141218 01:03:49< celticminstrel> It could be compared to slavery, perhaps. Depending on the sentience level of the spirits.
20141218 01:04:10< celticminstrel> Some people object merely to desecration of the dead.
20141218 01:04:26< Necrosporus> But isn't their object irrational?
20141218 01:04:35< celticminstrel> That doesn't really matter, does it?
20141218 01:04:45< Necrosporus> Even Delfador used undead including ghosts and ghouls
20141218 01:05:03< celticminstrel> Delfador was not a necromancer, going by uh... the Memoirs, right?
20141218 01:05:12< Necrosporus> Yes
20141218 01:05:17< Necrosporus> But he still used undead
20141218 01:05:24< celticminstrel> He didn't raise the dead as minions.
20141218 01:05:38< celticminstrel> He didn't bind spirits to his will; spirits served him by their own choice.
20141218 01:05:44< Necrosporus> True, he brought them from the land of dead
20141218 01:06:08< Necrosporus> Necromancer do not have to bind the spirits against their will either
20141218 01:06:22< Necrosporus> They could search for ones who are willing to assist 
20141218 01:06:48< Necrosporus> And skellies and corpses aren't sentient probably
20141218 01:06:52< celticminstrel> There's a sharp conceptual difference between the spirit-type undead and the corpse-type undead. (Ghouls can belong to either type, depending on your interpretation; I think in folklore they're more like a spirit, in Wesnoth they look more like a corpse; but DM treated them more like a spirit, so who knows.)
20141218 01:07:07< celticminstrel> Oh right, skeletons.
20141218 01:07:18< celticminstrel> Skeletons are generally little more than bone golems.
20141218 01:07:44< celticminstrel> You're right that necromancers don't have to bind the spirits.
20141218 01:08:10< celticminstrel> But I think necromancy kind of implies it.
20141218 01:08:38< Necrosporus> Not necessary. They might practice the art and still be ethical
20141218 01:08:46< celticminstrel> I won't deny this.
20141218 01:08:56< celticminstrel> It's certainly possible.
20141218 01:09:19< Necrosporus> Also their use of spirits is not necessarily unethical 
20141218 01:09:56< celticminstrel> That depends on the spirits' level of sentience and whether they have the free will to leave the necromancer's service.
20141218 01:10:02< Necrosporus> Also they could reach near-immortality. isn't it a good thing to be immortal?
20141218 01:10:23< celticminstrel> (Hypothetically speaking, at least. We assume that the ones you encounter in a Wesnoth game are the loyal ones who stayed. :P )
20141218 01:10:25< celticminstrel> Uh, no.
20141218 01:10:39< celticminstrel> Immortality is not a straight-up "good thing".
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20141218 01:11:44< Necrosporus> Why not? Death is the worst possible thing which could happen, so avoiding it must be a very good thing
20141218 01:12:01< celticminstrel> Um, there are things worse than death...
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20141218 01:12:14< celticminstrel> And I'm not saying immortality is bad, either.
20141218 01:12:45< Necrosporus> What are the things which are worse than death?
20141218 01:13:01< Necrosporus> It's mentioned frequently, but few care to name some
20141218 01:13:23< celticminstrel> It's hard to think of them just off the top of my head, gimme a minute.
20141218 01:13:27< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, is immortality of lich-sort a bad thing?
20141218 01:13:43< celticminstrel> That depends on your point of view.
20141218 01:14:00< celticminstrel> The immortality of a lich requires giving up things that some people may value less than others.
20141218 01:14:58< celticminstrel> Well, apparently the most obvious answer to "what's worse than death" is "torture" (also rape): http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FateWorseThanDeath
20141218 01:15:13< celticminstrel> Note, I'm pretty sure it's joking about taxes and tofu.
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20141218 01:15:34< Necrosporus> It is probably worse then continuing normal life but better then dying normally?
20141218 01:15:37< Necrosporus> I mean lichness
20141218 01:16:01< celticminstrel> Not necessarily.
20141218 01:16:11< celticminstrel> It depends on how much you value those things you must give up.
20141218 01:16:51< celticminstrel> Things like friends and family (unless they become liches too), as well as simply the fact that your body is technically no longer alive.
20141218 01:19:16< Necrosporus> well, if they are true friends they won't abandon you even if you became a lich, will they?
20141218 01:19:30< celticminstrel> No, but they'll die before you do.
20141218 01:19:47< Necrosporus> It could happen without lichification as well
20141218 01:20:04< Necrosporus> So it doesn't count as a disadvantage at all
20141218 01:20:07< celticminstrel> True, but with lichification it's guaranteed. (Unless they become liches too, obviously.)
20141218 01:20:22< celticminstrel> So that's why it's a disdvantage.
20141218 01:20:27< celticminstrel> ^disadvantage
20141218 01:20:28< Necrosporus> Not really
20141218 01:20:42< Necrosporus> They still could became liches if they want to
20141218 01:20:56< celticminstrel> That's why I added that "unless" clause.
20141218 01:21:11< Necrosporus> So it doesn't count as disadvantage
20141218 01:21:13< celticminstrel> But, I think the chances of that are fairly low.
20141218 01:21:20< celticminstrel> No, it definitely counts as a disadvantage.
20141218 01:21:46< Necrosporus> So normal long life is a disadvantage as well
20141218 01:21:55< Necrosporus> But I won't say so
20141218 01:21:57< celticminstrel> They could become liches if they want to, sure. The person becoming a lich in the first place doesn't know if they want to and probably assumes they don't.
20141218 01:22:30< Necrosporus> The lich still could animate them even if they die
20141218 01:22:39< Necrosporus> As a ghosts 
20141218 01:22:55< celticminstrel> That's not the same thing.
20141218 01:23:08< Necrosporus> I wonder if it's possible to turn a ghost into a lich
20141218 01:23:23< celticminstrel> Probably not.
20141218 01:23:24< Necrosporus> I mean make it posses its own remnaints or something
20141218 01:23:38< celticminstrel> That might be possible, but I wouldn't call it a lich.
20141218 01:23:54< Necrosporus> Can't it still evolve into a lich?
20141218 01:23:58< celticminstrel> (Whether it's possible would depend on the setting, of course.)
20141218 01:24:04< celticminstrel> Uh, I doubt it?
20141218 01:24:25< celticminstrel> Again though, it depends on the setting. There are many different interpretations of exactly how a lich works.
20141218 01:24:38< Necrosporus> What about wesnoth ones?
20141218 01:25:02< celticminstrel> I'm not sure.
20141218 01:25:27< celticminstrel> I think in general Wesnoth has a less, um, "dark" view of liches than many other settings.
20141218 01:26:26< Necrosporus> What do you mean?
20141218 01:28:00< celticminstrel> Uh, I'm only really going on vague memory here, so I'm not sure how to explain what I mean. Something like they're not automatically assume evil?
20141218 01:29:00< Necrosporus> Though the people seem to treat them as if they were
20141218 01:29:38< celticminstrel> I haven't even played the campaign I'm thinking of. >_>
20141218 01:34:16< Necrosporus> Did?
20141218 01:34:46< celticminstrel> ?
20141218 01:34:54< celticminstrel> Oh, no.
20141218 01:34:58< celticminstrel> Not Descent into Darkness.
20141218 01:37:01< Necrosporus> Which one then?
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20141218 01:52:44< celticminstrel> Something about Wesmere, I think?
20141218 01:52:54< celticminstrel> I could be wrong though.
20141218 01:52:59< celticminstrel> Since I haven't played it.
20141218 01:53:22< celticminstrel> I'm only dredging up vague recollections of people talking about it, which may not even be accurate.
20141218 01:54:02< celticminstrel> I think it's supposed to be about something like humanity's arrival to the continent of Wesnoth.
20141218 01:56:11< vultraz> celticminstrel: are you referring to the Lich Lords in The Rise of Wesnoth?
20141218 01:57:22< celticminstrel> Probably.
20141218 01:57:57< Necrosporus> Anyway, was Malin Keshar killed by a foolish hero or lived long enough to see the fall and so?
20141218 01:58:20< vultraz> By IftU/AtS canon, he lives until long after the fall
20141218 01:58:35< Necrosporus> What about DiD then?
20141218 01:58:44< Necrosporus> Is it going to be changed to reflect that?
20141218 01:59:02< vultraz> The end of DiD is a repeating scenario where he fights people who come to kill him over and over
20141218 01:59:08< vultraz> he doesn't die on-screen
20141218 01:59:13< vultraz> he never has
20141218 01:59:52< vultraz> You simply keep playing the scenario over and over until you're tired of it, so, by mainline canon, he's alive and it's never specific when he dies
20141218 01:59:57< vultraz> specified*
20141218 02:00:22< vultraz> IftU/AtS canon kills him off
20141218 02:00:35< celticminstrel> ...what.
20141218 02:00:54< vultraz> have you never played Did?
20141218 02:00:55< celticminstrel> How does DiD even end, then?
20141218 02:00:59< celticminstrel> No.
20141218 02:01:10< vultraz> You quit
20141218 02:01:23< celticminstrel> So, you never get a wreath?
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20141218 02:01:33< vultraz> Not sure
20141218 02:02:17< vultraz> Point being, it's a representation of many people trying to kill Malin and failing
20141218 02:02:32< celticminstrel> That sounds terrible.
20141218 02:02:43< celticminstrel> You've just given me another reason not to play it.
20141218 02:04:04< vultraz> celticminstrel: however, if you complete the last scenario more than once, and 'lose' (Malin dies) the campaign ends and you 'win'
20141218 02:04:18< celticminstrel> Uh, that's even worse...
20141218 02:04:31< vultraz> it's a weird ending
20141218 02:14:12< Necrosporus> vultraz, I have finished it
20141218 02:14:44< Necrosporus> You must win the scenario at least one or three times (can't remember for sure), then when you are defeated the campaign ends
20141218 02:15:03< celticminstrel> That's terrible.
20141218 02:15:05< Necrosporus> And enemy strength goes up gradually
20141218 02:15:16< Necrosporus> So each next hero is stronger
20141218 02:15:32< Necrosporus> Though with some tricks you could hold it off almost indefinitly
20141218 02:16:19< Necrosporus> vultraz, so Keshar is destroyed on-screen in DiD
20141218 02:16:41< celticminstrel> But from the sounds of it, it's not specified when that happens.
20141218 02:16:48< Necrosporus> true
20141218 02:16:48< vultraz> Necrosporus: well, it's ambiguous 
20141218 02:17:00< celticminstrel> It's also pretty terrible.
20141218 02:17:15< vultraz> either ending could be canon
20141218 02:17:19< Necrosporus> you get wreath after being defeated (but not on first iteration)
20141218 02:21:25< vultraz> I personally prefer to think he doesn't die
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20141218 02:33:42< Necrosporus> vultraz, the final credits say the does
20141218 02:33:57< Necrosporus> Though I'm not sure if destruction of lich means death for him
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20141218 15:28:05< Necrosporus> zookeeper, does Mal Keshar die in DiD or not? If he does, doesn't it contradict ItFU?
20141218 15:28:25< zookeeper> he dies if you get him killed
20141218 15:29:12< zookeeper> there's no canon, but i'm sure if there was, it'd be that he lives because IftU
20141218 15:30:11< Necrosporus> zookeeper, but it's impossible to walk through DiD's last scenario without getting him killed
20141218 15:30:28< Necrosporus> I would suggest changing it, and maybe adding few more scenarios
20141218 15:31:17< zookeeper> it's not going to change
20141218 15:34:22< Necrosporus> Why not?
20141218 15:34:33< Necrosporus> What's wrong with adding more scenarios?
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20141218 15:35:31< Necrosporus> Also if someone writes a campaign about Malin, taking place after he set his home in troll cave but before itfu...
20141218 15:35:55< Necrosporus> Is it possible to make it canon?
20141218 15:36:04< zookeeper> it's not going to change because pretty much everyone who would have a say in it thinks it's good as it is
20141218 15:38:55< Necrosporus> It's good as it is but it could be made better
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20141218 15:42:29< Necrosporus> I wonder what is better strategy in campaign, to get send units for all villages or to bring everything you can for a fight, so you could win faster and get better early finish bonus
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20141218 16:29:59< celmin|sleep> I would suggest changing it on completely different grounds. Death is not a good victory condition.
20141218 16:34:39< zookeeper> what the scenario needs is extra dialogue and/or other hints to make it clear that yes, the same scenario is supposed to repeat and that it's not a bug (which is likely what a lot of people would assume the first time)
20141218 16:35:23< zookeeper> and some alternate ending dialogue for orcs and others for whom the current one doesn't really make sense
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20141218 17:58:48< vultraz> Random thoughts on DiD: Lord Karres sure has a weird house
20141218 18:49:46< zookeeper> vultraz, the manor at the end of DM, too
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20141218 21:29:48< Necrosporus> How do you choose which difficulty to use while playing a campaign?
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--- Log closed Fri Dec 19 00:00:22 2014