--- Log opened Sat Jan 03 00:00:25 2015
20150103 00:06:55< irker712> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 3ff112831a33 / src/ (6 files): unit_types: make experience_accelerator not an inner class http://git.io/ad8c7Q
20150103 00:32:02< irker712> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master ba094eff715e / src/ (persist_manager.cpp persist_manager.hpp): persist manager: move ctor, dtor out of header http://git.io/n2Y16A
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20150103 00:57:23< irker712> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master d356e8d53f82 / src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): play_controller: forward declare statistics context http://git.io/i-S0Ng
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20150103 01:03:00< gfgtdf> iceiceice: can i use the default copy constructor of game_state ?
20150103 01:03:42< gfgtdf> iceiceice: wait
20150103 01:03:45< iceiceice> right now it will try to copy lua
20150103 01:03:53< iceiceice> i think you won't get two different lua kernels
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20150103 01:04:41< iceiceice> i have a plan to make that work though
20150103 01:04:53< gfgtdf> iceiceice: how is your plan ?
20150103 01:05:10< iceiceice> lua has a provided function to clone an entire lua state
20150103 01:05:19< iceiceice> so we could write a copy ctor that calls that
20150103 01:05:38< iceiceice> the other issues are like,
20150103 01:05:52< iceiceice> i guess you can't use references as member variables in any class you intend to use copy and swap with
20150103 01:06:06< iceiceice> so either those all need to change to pointers, or some other solution
20150103 01:06:07< Necrosporus> What if you collect a goldchest or something increasing your gold and end scenario on same turn?
20150103 01:06:13< iceiceice> probably its fine to change them to pointers
20150103 01:06:21< iceiceice> i shold have done it that way anyways
20150103 01:06:28< Necrosporus> Seems like you might lose the gold you collected by last turn
20150103 01:06:45< iceiceice> the other thing is, all the lua_cpp::functions defined by "bind" are based on the "this" pointer
20150103 01:06:57< iceiceice> i noticed that this can cause problems once before,
20150103 01:08:22< iceiceice> for instance, this line the list of callbacks can be static:
20150103 01:08:23< iceiceice> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/scripting/game_lua_kernel.cpp#L3607
20150103 01:08:32< iceiceice> because they are jsut function pointers
20150103 01:08:53< iceiceice> this line it cant be: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/scripting/game_lua_kernel.cpp#L3628
20150103 01:08:58< iceiceice> or in the next game you segfault from stale pointers
20150103 01:09:02< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i'd think teh statsi ones casue less problems
20150103 01:09:31< iceiceice> so the issue is,
20150103 01:09:37< iceiceice> once you bind the function and pass it to lua,
20150103 01:09:52< iceiceice> someone could save a wesnoth. function in a member variable somewhere
20150103 01:10:05< iceiceice> if you clone the state, that pointer needs to get updated
20150103 01:10:10< iceiceice> or you will call functions in the wrong copy
20150103 01:10:29< iceiceice> so i think the simplest solution is, store the "this" pointer in the registry
20150103 01:10:42< iceiceice> and instead of bind to this, bind to the function that looks it up
20150103 01:10:48< gfgtdf> iceiceice: yes that what i thougth too
20150103 01:10:49< iceiceice> then in the copy ctor, update the this pointer
20150103 01:11:00< gfgtdf> iceiceice: yes
20150103 01:11:04< iceiceice> ok good :)
20150103 01:11:07< gfgtdf> iceiceice: we can do it faster than registry
20150103 01:12:36< gfgtdf> iceiceice: i just forgot teh name let me look it up
20150103 01:12:39< gfgtdf> the*
20150103 01:13:21< gfgtdf> iceiceice: with LUAI_EXTRASPACE
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20150103 01:14:10< iceiceice> yeah i see
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20150103 01:23:24< irker712> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:master 7aea1c732a66 / src/ (4 files): cosmetic: tidy up punctuation in controller ctor initializer lists http://git.io/DLPNyQ
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20150103 01:24:25< iceiceice> i will be back a bit later
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20150103 02:46:12< Necrosporus> Could you change loadgame dialog so it displays filelist immediately and lets you navigate through it only reading save info when your cursor stays on one file long enough?
20150103 02:46:12< Necrosporus> So you would be able to load last save immediately by clicking ctrl-o and enter without waiting
20150103 02:47:08< shadowm> Patches welcome.
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20150103 03:25:28< iceiceice> Necrosporus: re: "What if you collect a goldchest or something increasing your gold and end scenario on same turn?"
20150103 03:25:36< Necrosporus> shadowm, I'm afraid that even if I manage to do it, my code would break something else I don't know because I have nearly zero experience with wesnoth C++ and don't know C++ quite well in general (I know parts which are same as in C and some tricks with objects and that's all)
20150103 03:25:39< iceiceice> best way to figure this out is to test it
20150103 03:25:57< iceiceice> i don't think it would be too hard to make a unit test for this
20150103 03:26:07< iceiceice> if its important for some scenario
20150103 03:26:13< iceiceice> thats the kind of obscure thing that a unit test is good for imo
20150103 03:26:54< iceiceice> Necrosporus: re: loadgame dialog,
20150103 03:27:03< shadowm> Then at least you could submit a FR or something.
20150103 03:27:16< iceiceice> i think you might not have to know the code very deeply to do this, all you need is to make the computation "lazy"
20150103 03:27:38< iceiceice> so instead of storing struct of file meta data or whatever, it stores a pointer
20150103 03:27:49< iceiceice> and make sure that if it tries to read the pointer and its null then it computes the data and stores it there
20150103 03:28:16< iceiceice> if you use a smart pointer then there are no memory issues to worry about
20150103 03:28:48< shadowm> The most absurd part is that the save games index is supposed to make the Load Game dialog better but I believe it's been broken for several stable series/has non-deterministic behavior/nobody understands how it works anyway.
20150103 03:29:51< shadowm> Anyway, I'm not going to be the one to encourage fast save reloading.
20150103 03:30:05< Necrosporus> Also if you got more than 1mil of gold last digits are not displayed while there's still lot of space in top panel
20150103 03:30:10< shadowm> So the slower it is, the better I say. :p
20150103 03:31:33< Necrosporus> You could insert wait in the save loading code
20150103 03:32:02< iceiceice> maybe thats all the saveindex really is :p
20150103 03:32:10< iceiceice> some sort of obfuscated saveload-punishing module
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20150103 04:36:54< irker396> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master a50225922c17 / data/campaigns/tutorial/ (_main.cfg lua/character_selection.lua scenarios/01_Tutorial_part_1.cfg): T: converted character selection dialog to a custom GUI2 one http://git.io/72nX3Q
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20150103 07:54:23< irker359> wesnoth: Groggy Dice wesnoth:1.12 128798d28c26 / data/campaigns/ (8 files in 3 dirs): data/campaigns: correct "... then" to "... than" http://git.io/ooCkRA
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20150103 08:52:39< irker359> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 3661f0ad3d4c / data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/01_Tutorial_part_1.cfg: T S1: improved movement lesson I wrote yesterday http://git.io/Roiq-A
20150103 08:57:25< vultraz> muuuch better
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20150103 09:01:40< irker359> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master bf1a9b075291 / data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/01_Tutorial_part_1.cfg: T S1: don't make the objective summary bullets small http://git.io/tBUPxw
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20150103 09:41:40 * vultraz ponders a way to eliminate the gender macro
20150103 09:41:44< vultraz> er, variable
20150103 09:41:47< vultraz> not the macro
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20150103 09:44:26< Necrosporus> What's that variable?
20150103 09:44:55< Necrosporus> Interesting what do you change in tutorial?
20150103 09:45:38< Necrosporus> AI thinks for really long time when dealing with 1-6 berserk unit with high hp
20150103 09:46:10< Ivanovic> of course it does because it simulates the fight for up to *many* rounds
20150103 09:46:16< Ivanovic> i think something like 100 rounds
20150103 09:47:41< Ivanovic> and that for every option the AI has
20150103 09:48:00< Ivanovic> so if there are 5 of those units that could reach each other: *HUGE* amount of calculations
20150103 09:48:17< Ivanovic> with other words: really high HP berserk units were never meant to exist
20150103 09:48:46< vultraz> beserk only works for 33 rounds or something
20150103 09:51:52< enchilado> I think it's a round 30
20150103 09:52:27< Ivanovic> still a lot, since it means "up to 30 fights"
20150103 09:53:16< vultraz> I wonder if we could make the ai do calculations on the fly.
20150103 09:57:04< Ivanovic> i think it is intentional that it simulates the outcomes
20150103 09:57:15< Ivanovic> this way the probabilities collapse to a single result to use
20150103 09:58:43< Ivanovic> and you can't just go with the most likely result
20150103 09:58:53< Ivanovic> otherwise the AI would be 100% predictable
20150103 09:59:18< Ivanovic> while with simulating the outcome of the flights you at least have some small variations in the decissions since also the less likely outcomes are considered by the AI
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20150103 10:00:11< Necrosporus> But I'm waiting almost half of hour for AI turn
20150103 10:00:19< vultraz> hm...especially since we have a full-random RNG and not a pseudo-random one (ie, like dota, where the chances of something happening increase the more it doesn't happen)
20150103 10:00:39< Ivanovic> Necrosporus: yeah, so do not break the system by creating high HP berserk units
20150103 10:00:45< vultraz> (I think the latter is what the RNG people wanted when we used to get a lot of complaints)
20150103 10:01:11< Ivanovic> there are just some things which are not supposed to exist
20150103 10:01:24< Ivanovic> if someone creates them: yes, it can significantly impact the experience
20150103 10:01:29< Necrosporus> I didn't write that addon
20150103 10:01:39< Ivanovic> then complain to the addon creator
20150103 10:01:41< Necrosporus> Also the problem seems to be 1-6 attack
20150103 10:01:41< vultraz> are you playing LotI :P
20150103 10:01:56< vultraz> LotI is famous for high HP units
20150103 10:02:22< Necrosporus> nope
20150103 10:02:32< Ivanovic> just because something is possible in WML it does not mean that it is "officially supported"
20150103 10:02:45< Ivanovic> and "high HP" combined with "berserk" is clearly not officially supported
20150103 10:02:52< Necrosporus> The problem is low attack
20150103 10:02:57< Necrosporus> 1-6
20150103 10:03:16< Ivanovic> the problem is that the fight takes too many rounds because a unit does not die (in the simulation)
20150103 10:03:29< Ivanovic> which is because the units have too many HP
20150103 10:03:39< vultraz> 1 - 6 is only 6 damage
20150103 10:03:44< Necrosporus> Actually it's that's berserk enemies die
20150103 10:03:46< Ivanovic> or don't do enough damage in relation to the available HP
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20150103 10:04:30< Ivanovic> Necrosporus: in a fight "to death" (what berserk initially was) it is a calculation based on: chance to hit, damage per hit, number of hits, available HP
20150103 10:04:49< Ivanovic> and this for each side until either one side is dead or overall 30 rounds (or something like this) are over
20150103 10:04:59< Necrosporus> 40 AFAIR
20150103 10:05:11< Ivanovic> the initial idea was that after no more than 5 to 6 rounds one of the two is going to be dead
20150103 10:05:17< Necrosporus> Seems like 30 actually
20150103 10:05:32< vultraz> Most often it's like 3 or 4
20150103 10:05:43< Ivanovic> and the 30 was just selected as "in main canton this is even enough for the weird corner cases where both units really have zero luck hitting"
20150103 10:06:11< Ivanovic> vultraz: 90%: 3 to 4 rounds, 99.9%: 5 to 6 rounds
20150103 10:06:12< Ivanovic> ;)
20150103 10:06:59< Ivanovic> Necrosporus: so if you deviate from this somehow, then AI turns can take significantly longer
20150103 10:07:28< Ivanovic> simply because, due to good reasons, the AI simulates the outcomes of the fights and is not using a plain "lets use the most likely result"-scheme
20150103 10:07:30< Necrosporus> 1-6 berserk is fighting with 100 hp unit
20150103 10:07:50< Necrosporus> berserker got 1000 hp
20150103 10:08:08< Necrosporus> So it's like 5 dmg per round
20150103 10:08:40< Necrosporus> So nearly 20 rounds are required to kill the enemy
20150103 10:09:18< Ivanovic> and now consider that the AI simulates different orders of moving units
20150103 10:09:24< Ivanovic> and attacking with them
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20150103 10:11:53< Necrosporus> While for a player it's obvious all enemies will die reducing hp slightly
20150103 10:13:19< Necrosporus> Is it possible to introduce some shortcuts for the AI?
20150103 10:13:44< Ivanovic> no idea
20150103 10:14:06< Necrosporus> 1-1 berserker with 10000 hp
20150103 10:14:26< Necrosporus> (and it doesn't matter what damage type for this case)
20150103 10:16:07< vultraz> Necrosporus: anyway, that variable tracks whether you have konrad (male) or lisar (female)
20150103 10:17:30< Necrosporus> And why do not you like it?
20150103 10:18:39< vultraz> I dislike variables that could be better served with another purpose
20150103 10:20:19< Necrosporus> What do you mean?
20150103 10:20:28< Necrosporus> Anyway there's unit variation
20150103 10:21:10< Ivanovic> vultraz: ain't that variable required to allow the translations to work?
20150103 10:21:29< Ivanovic> keep in mind that the text might differ in some languages based on which gender says it
20150103 10:23:26< Necrosporus> True
20150103 10:25:04< vultraz> Ivanovic: there's a macro for that, that checks on a variable
20150103 10:25:24< vultraz> however, I just checked. [have_unit] id=student gender= works
20150103 10:25:47< vultraz> er, kinda
20150103 10:25:51< vultraz> lemme see..
20150103 10:26:36< vultraz> no it doesn't
20150103 10:26:39< vultraz> :(
20150103 10:29:49< vultraz> ohhhhh
20150103 10:30:19< Necrosporus> Do not break working code
20150103 10:30:49< Necrosporus> Unless there are known bugs or missing features
20150103 10:31:31< vultraz> I am not breaking anything
20150103 10:32:20< Necrosporus> What are you trying to do with tutorial then?
20150103 10:32:57< vultraz> I am improving it!
20150103 10:33:15< vultraz> Have you not seen all the commits I've been making??
20150103 10:34:11< Necrosporus> Well, what are you improving actually?
20150103 10:34:19< Necrosporus> I see them but didn't read 
20150103 10:34:43< Necrosporus> What are you trying to do?
20150103 10:34:57< irker359> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master e10dfeb92c42 / data/campaigns/tutorial/ (lua/character_selection.lua scenarios/02_Tutorial_part_2.cfg utils/utils.cfg): T: eliminate the 'gender' variable by using the SUF gender= key http://git.io/PPqT-w
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20150103 10:35:28< vultraz> A. refactor the code. It was extremely messy
20150103 10:35:42< vultraz> B. improve the presentation
20150103 10:35:54< vultraz> C. improve the content to better introduce concepts
20150103 10:37:06< Necrosporus> C. that's interesting, are you changes going to 1.12 or only 13?
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20150103 10:38:29< vultraz> 1.13 only
20150103 10:46:56< Necrosporus> And what are you going to change?
20150103 10:47:06< Necrosporus> Except cosmetic changes
20150103 10:47:06< vultraz> I have changed a lot
20150103 10:47:20< vultraz> Only in the first scenario, as yet
20150103 10:47:27< vultraz> I haven't gotten to S2
20150103 10:47:45< vultraz> for one, there are more explanations of mechanics when you encounter them
20150103 10:48:03< vultraz> there is less 'hand holding' (ie, click here, click there)
20150103 10:48:16< Necrosporus> Would it work if I copy them over files in 1.12?
20150103 10:48:52< vultraz> I don't know
20150103 10:48:55< Necrosporus> I do not have 1.13 nor I want to compile it until it's more or less stable (like 1.11.15 )
20150103 10:49:27< Necrosporus> Did you use any 1.13 only features?
20150103 10:49:33< Necrosporus> There's not a lot of them
20150103 10:49:36< vultraz> I haven't kept track
20150103 10:49:39< vultraz> I don't think so
20150103 10:50:17< vultraz> but I changed more than just scenario files
20150103 10:50:23< vultraz> I also updated the file structure
20150103 10:53:20< Necrosporus> >  You can always press <b>u</b> to undo a move if you move to the wrong place.
20150103 10:53:22< Necrosporus> Not true
20150103 10:53:32< Necrosporus> I guess you should s/always//
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20150103 10:58:42< vultraz> ah, thanks
20150103 10:59:37< vultraz> I'll fix
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20150103 11:01:15< Necrosporus> I wonder why do one have both traits and abilities
20150103 11:01:19< Necrosporus> It's really same thing
20150103 11:02:08< Necrosporus> You couldn't say traits are individual to each unit while abilities are not, because some units always get traits (like feral and undead)
20150103 11:02:32< vultraz> there's probably some legacy reason
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20150103 11:05:37< Necrosporus> > "I’ll tell them to use the one that does the most damage!"
20150103 11:05:43< Necrosporus> why?
20150103 11:05:54< Necrosporus> Isn't it more wise to use bow instead?
20150103 11:06:07< vultraz> that is explained
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20150103 11:06:21< Necrosporus> But why does the student say this?
20150103 11:06:37< vultraz> because the student reflects the ideas of the player 
20150103 11:08:09< Necrosporus> But student doesn't necessarily thinks that way
20150103 11:08:30< Necrosporus> * player
20150103 11:09:02< vultraz> it's the logical newbie conception 
20150103 11:09:18< vultraz> the point of that is to basically say
20150103 11:09:19< Necrosporus> Also it might be reasonable to attack the quintain with the leader first because you want to give XP to fighters as they could advance and student could not
20150103 11:09:33< vultraz> 'the attack that does the most damage isn't always the best'
20150103 11:09:53< Necrosporus> But delfador advices against that
20150103 11:10:01< vultraz> AFTER you attack
20150103 11:10:36< Necrosporus> ame=select first_time_only=no
20150103 11:10:41< Necrosporus> Not after
20150103 11:11:01< vultraz> oh, you're referring to the leader
20150103 11:11:45< Necrosporus> Actually it's wiser to attack with leader first, then with fighers unless quintain could kill the leader
20150103 11:13:13< Necrosporus> I suggest to change it so it would only appear if leader has low hp
20150103 11:13:15< Necrosporus> _"You wouldn’t do anything stupid like charging that quintain yourself again, now would you? Use the fighters you recruited first; they’ll be a lot of help."
20150103 11:14:14< Necrosporus> It's not recommeded to attack it with leader if the leader got less than 30 hp
20150103 11:14:33< Necrosporus> Since quintain could deal such many damage per turn
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20150103 11:16:41< Necrosporus> So check if leader got less than 30 hp and if he does say something like "Be careful, if quntain hits you $(leader_hp/quintain_damage_per_strike) times you will die"
20150103 11:19:01< vultraz> maybe
20150103 11:20:18< irker359> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 22f158e57ddc / data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/01_Tutorial_part_1.cfg: T S1: don't say you can always undo http://git.io/0zZUKw
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20150103 11:24:15< Necrosporus> > Each village you control will <i>support</i> one unit for free.
20150103 11:24:31< Necrosporus> Not necessarily if you got lvl2 or higher units
20150103 11:25:54< Necrosporus> Though it's mentioned further
20150103 11:26:10< Necrosporus> Maybe "support one level 1 unit for free"?
20150103 11:27:56< vultraz> the actual way it works is more technical
20150103 11:29:36< Necrosporus> Seems you removed some additional tips which were displayed when you were fighting additional quintains
20150103 11:31:58< Necrosporus> Berserk is attacking a unit with 100% defense
20150103 11:32:21< Necrosporus> By the way when unit has 100% defence there's no enough space in right panel 
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20150103 11:52:54< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#5419 (master - 22f158e : Charles Dang): The build was broken.
20150103 11:52:54< travis-ci> Build details : http://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/45763858
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20150103 12:21:02< vultraz> Necrosporus: I removed no tips
20150103 12:22:13< Necrosporus> Dunno there were additional tips each time you finish a turn after killing first quintain
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20150103 12:49:39< Nostromus> necrosporus: i just played the tutorial, and the additional tips are there (1.13 master)
20150103 12:51:35< Necrosporus> They are in other file probably then
20150103 12:54:43< Nostromus> i like the new choose dialog between Konrad and Li'sar, i would like to see the other question (further play after first quintain kill) in the same type of dialog. IMHO it is more direct to the user. Now you (user) has to decide something.
20150103 12:55:46< Nostromus> just my two cents ;)
20150103 12:57:18< Necrosporus> could you screenshot the dialog?
20150103 12:57:51< Nostromus> you mean the second dialog, which i mean?
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20150103 13:08:17< Nostromus> https://www.dropbox.com/s/yzcdch61tg2mho9/Bildschirmfoto%20von%20%C2%BB2015-01-03%2014%3A02%3A18%C2%AB.png?dl=0
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20150103 13:10:42< Nostromus> i thought about it again, and maybe it isn't such a good idea.
20150103 13:11:00< Necrosporus> I don't have 1.13 so I wonder what are you talking about
20150103 13:11:19< Necrosporus> And what does it mean?
20150103 13:11:56< Nostromus> Did you saw the picture in the link?
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20150103 13:14:40< Nostromus> Only cosmetic change, not important
20150103 13:15:46< Necrosporus> Yes
20150103 13:15:52< Necrosporus> but I do not speak german
20150103 13:16:18< Nostromus> ah sorry
20150103 13:20:08< vultraz> Nostromus: thanks :) glad you like the dialog
20150103 13:20:27< vultraz> I can make the other dialog a similar one
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20150103 13:21:27< vultraz> Nostromus: out of curiosity, how big is your monitor?
20150103 13:21:39< Nostromus> 24'
20150103 13:21:52< Nostromus> i believe
20150103 13:22:42< Nostromus> yes 24 inch
20150103 13:23:39< Nostromus> vultraz: with the second dialog, try it. i'm not so sure about it
20150103 13:23:44< vultraz> hm...
20150103 13:23:47< vultraz> perhaps you're right
20150103 13:24:04< vultraz> the character one is more appropriate for a dialog, but this might not be
20150103 13:26:33< Nostromus> Necrosporus: the text are not so important, but i have uploaded the two screenshots in english too
20150103 13:26:56< Nostromus> but i'm sure it is absolet
20150103 13:27:44< Nostromus> obsolet...
20150103 13:31:40< irker359> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 01c10af62330 / data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/01_Tutorial_part_1.cfg: T S1: don't show the 'You wouldn’t do anything stupid' dialog only once http://git.io/-M5SrQ
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20150103 14:07:54< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#5420 (master - 01c10af : Charles Dang): The build was fixed.
20150103 14:07:54< travis-ci> Build details : http://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/45771029
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20150103 14:12:03< vultraz> er, that last commit. 
20150103 14:12:08< vultraz> I meant do show it only once
20150103 14:12:10< vultraz> not don't
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20150103 14:51:58< Necrosporus> How could it be possible that one unit turned into another after loading saving game?
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20150103 14:59:15< Necrosporus_> My unit turned into a fly out of sudden
20150103 14:59:39< Necrosporus_> though if I save replay and play through it the unit is on place
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20150103 15:01:43< Necrosporus_> No sync errors
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20150103 15:02:08< Necrosporus> Even though it's a rather buggy addon that seem strange
20150103 15:09:29< vultraz> i seem to recall someone reporting that that happens 
20150103 15:09:52< Necrosporus> I have a savefile
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20150103 15:28:24< Ravana_> I recall something like that happening related to unit id clashes
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20150103 15:35:53< Necrosporus> I guess I could use inspect then to see the id
20150103 15:38:51< Necrosporus> It might be so
20150103 15:40:16< Necrosporus> Ravana_, seem you might be right
20150103 15:42:07< Necrosporus> why not to use uuid for unit id generation?
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--- Log closed Sun Jan 04 00:00:28 2015