--- Log opened Fri Jan 16 00:00:35 2015
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20150116 01:23:03< irker044> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth:1.12 88ef83f24014 / src/multiplayer_lobby.cpp: mp: Use Title Case for replay mode combo box items, rename an item http://git.io/98I18w
20150116 01:23:04< irker044> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth:master 65da0a9862f1 / src/game_initialization/multiplayer_lobby.cpp: mp: Use Title Case for replay mode combo box items, shorten an item http://git.io/6eqIwg
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20150116 03:27:31< irker044> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth:master b270658f50d1 / cmake/FindTranslationTools.cmake doc/manual/CMakeLists.txt: cmake: Quick-and-dirty fix for the DocBook XSL path on Debian http://git.io/3HAfQg
20150116 03:27:34< irker044> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth:1.12 133f18efd23e / cmake/FindTranslationTools.cmake doc/manual/CMakeLists.txt: cmake: Quick-and-dirty fix for the DocBook XSL path on Debian http://git.io/2rr2OQ
20150116 03:27:37< irker044> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth:1.12 13d0e58e9b6e / / (738 files in 28 dirs): pot and documentation update http://git.io/hatJ1w
20150116 03:30:26< shadowm> Ivanovic: Did I do it right?
20150116 03:30:56< shadowm> I'm going to write the email in the meantime.
20150116 03:40:57< Necrosporus> by the way, multiplayer campaign doesn't seem to be usable in 1.12 yet
20150116 03:41:25< Necrosporus> so does still 'rules to correct saving' apply?
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20150116 04:19:09-!- shadowm changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: String-freeze active on 1.12 branch for releasing 1.12.1 on 2015-01-23 | Wesnoth Developers Channel | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Alternate logs (down): http://wesnoth.debian.net
20150116 04:35:24< shadowm> Email sent.
20150116 04:41:44< Necrosporus> If alternative logs are down why do you mention them?
20150116 04:45:01< shadowm> Because I enjopy watching perfectionists squirm.
20150116 04:47:26< ancestral> About how much time is there between tagging and release?
20150116 04:49:10-!- shadowm changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: String-freeze active on 1.12 branch for tagging 1.12.1 on 2015-01-23 | Wesnoth Developers Channel | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Alternate logs (down): http://wesnoth.debian.net
20150116 04:49:56< shadowm> Depends on how you define 'release'.
20150116 04:50:19< shadowm> You are subscribed to the devs ML, right ancestral?
20150116 04:50:25< ancestral> Yes, I am now
20150116 04:50:31< ancestral> I received your email
20150116 04:50:35< shadowm> Okay, good. The deets are all in there.
20150116 04:51:22< ancestral> Well… I see the date for tagging, but there’s some time after that to get things packaged
20150116 04:51:25< shadowm> The expectation is that packagers will do their magic within the next 72 hours.
20150116 04:51:32< ancestral> That’s what I wanted to know
20150116 04:51:44< shadowm> The official source code distribution, though? Instantly.
20150116 04:51:56< ancestral> Well, of course
20150116 04:52:03< shadowm> It happens at roughly the same time as the tag, minus transfer delays.
20150116 04:52:59< shadowm> I *think* we have a longer delay between tagging and announcing (not packaging) for stable releases but I don't remember what it is.
20150116 04:53:23< shadowm> For development releases up to this point it's been 24 hours ± whenever shadowm decides to post the announcement.
20150116 04:53:30< ancestral> Okay good… checking my schedule, I have the 24th off
20150116 04:54:02< shadowm> I'd prefer to announce on a Sunday, myself.
20150116 04:54:06< ancestral> (Sometimes I have to work all weekend)
20150116 04:54:19< ancestral> Good, then things should work well
20150116 04:54:37< shadowm> This is because 1.11.17 through 1.12.0 have been announced on Sundays.
20150116 04:55:00< shadowm> Although I think I cheated a bit for 1.12.0.
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20150116 04:55:45< ancestral> Speaking of which, hello mattsc
20150116 04:55:50< shadowm> 1.10.4 was tagged on 2012-08-24 and announced on 2012-08-27.
20150116 04:55:58< mattsc> Hi ancestral 
20150116 04:56:08< ancestral> Will you be available anytime on the 24th?
20150116 04:56:15< ancestral> *any time
20150116 04:56:21< mattsc> I am traveling on the 24th (not just being on a trip, but that’s my actual travel day), so I cannot help that day.
20150116 04:56:30< ancestral> Alright
20150116 04:56:55< shadowm> I can announce one minute before midnight on the 25th to avoid breaking the previous pattern.
20150116 04:56:58< ancestral> Maybe I can reach out to you a day or two earlier
20150116 04:57:17< mattsc> ancestral: sure, I’d be happy to help.
20150116 04:57:55< mattsc> I’ll be on the trip until then, (and the 21st is another traveling day), but I can definitely be around at certain times.
20150116 04:58:24< ancestral> Next Thursday I have off. Maybe between now and then I’ll try building 1.12 myself and if I run into trouble I’ll make a list of questions
20150116 04:58:33< mattsc> ancestral, we ...
20150116 04:58:42< mattsc> I was just going to suggest something like that.  :)
20150116 04:58:50< mattsc> Sounds great.
20150116 04:58:53< ancestral> Cool
20150116 04:59:08< ancestral> (That way when 1.12.1 is actually happening we’ll be in good shape)
20150116 04:59:46< shadowm> I'll have to rehearse the source release beforehand as well.
20150116 04:59:48< ancestral> The binary stuff, like frameworks, don’t need to be recompiled necessarily, correct?
20150116 05:00:03< ancestral> (Obviously 1.13 will be different)
20150116 05:00:28< mattsc> Sounds like a plan.  And if you run into serious problems for some reason or out of time, I can still do the 1.12.1 release.  Not that I expect that to happen, but just in case ...
20150116 05:00:38 * ancestral nods
20150116 05:00:49< ancestral> The only concern I have is not having the correct hardware around
20150116 05:01:03< ancestral> But it appears like that shouldn’t be an issue
20150116 05:01:22< mattsc> ancestral: that’s correct, all the binary libs and frameworks are good the way they are.
20150116 05:01:27< ancestral> Awesome
20150116 05:02:06< mattsc> And the only problem with the hardware would be that the background image of the DMG might not show for 10.5 users; the package will still work for them.
20150116 05:03:15< mattsc> shadowm: I personally have no preference for which day of the week a version is tagged or announced.  Whatever works, if you ask me.
20150116 05:04:48< mattsc> ancestral: I haven’t had time yet to read all the information in your PM in detail yet, but I think that all sounds good.
20150116 05:05:22< ancestral> Obviously any of the new stuff would be experimented with 1.13
20150116 05:05:33< mattsc> I have to move on and do some more work right now, but I’ll check later to see if there was anything specific I want to comment on.
20150116 05:05:38< mattsc> Right
20150116 05:06:35< ancestral> Thanks
20150116 05:06:51< mattsc> No, thank you.
20150116 05:07:21< mattsc> Okay, I’m off again then.  Talk to you later.
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20150116 05:23:08< vultraz> shadowm: would you like to play the updated tutorial?
20150116 05:23:12< vultraz> well, later
20150116 05:23:15< vultraz> tomorrow maybe
20150116 05:23:17< vultraz> but would you
20150116 05:24:37< shadowm> You'll have to make an appointment with my secretary.
20150116 05:24:43< Necrosporus> vultraz, I could play it if it will be included in 1.12.1
20150116 05:24:58< vultraz> it will not be
20150116 05:25:08< Necrosporus> Will it work in 1.12.0?
20150116 05:25:24< Necrosporus> I could just copy and replace tutorial folder with yours
20150116 05:25:45< vultraz> at least one tag will not work
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20150116 05:29:09< Necrosporus> Aren't you going to update tutorial for 1.12.x series as well?
20150116 05:29:46< Necrosporus> You might make a compatible version by replacing tags which are not compatible
20150116 05:30:17< vultraz> No
20150116 05:30:18< vultraz> I will not
20150116 05:35:02< Necrosporus> Seems like there's a report about issue I was talking about earlier
20150116 05:35:24< Necrosporus> https://gna.org/bugs/?22988 // Also I noticed BfW 1.12 reflects this idea, because in 1.12 there is an "internal moveto event handler" that checks whether an enemy unit was revealed during the move and in that case the attack is canceled. (In BfW 1.10 the attack was performed anyway.
20150116 05:35:58< Necrosporus> Though I do not know if this behavior is intended
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20150116 05:55:55< Necrosporus> vultraz, I'm reading tutorial s2, and see a frightful macro REFUND_AND_REMOVE_RECRUIT
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20150116 05:56:10< Necrosporus> Are you sure it's a good idea to keep it a it is?
20150116 05:57:23< vultraz> Necrosporus: it was removed
20150116 05:57:54< Necrosporus> I'm looking at the wrong version then?
20150116 05:58:17< Necrosporus> How do I locate the latest version of given file in github web interface?
20150116 05:59:23< vultraz> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/02_Tutorial_part_2.cfg
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20150116 06:00:32< vultraz> I still have some ideas of stuff to add
20150116 06:05:19< vultraz> Necrosporus: as you can see, the main focus of my rewrite was reducing 'hand-holding'
20150116 06:05:32< vultraz> you're no longer told GO HERE and GO HERE and RECRUIT THIS ON THIS HEX
20150116 06:05:36< vultraz> you're given some advice
20150116 06:05:42< vultraz> but you're free to disregard it
20150116 06:06:26< Necrosporus> That's probably good since the recommended solutions are not necessarily the best
20150116 06:06:52< vultraz> the first thing you'll notice is there are NO MORE map labels labeling things
20150116 06:06:55< vultraz> like Go Here
20150116 06:06:57< vultraz> Village
20150116 06:07:17< Necrosporus> Though too bad you are not willing to port it back to 1.12
20150116 06:08:00< vultraz> shadowm would send an axe murderer after me if I changed that many strings
20150116 06:08:18< Necrosporus> Why not an orcish assassin?
20150116 06:08:34< vultraz> that would work :P
20150116 06:10:06< Necrosporus> vultraz, stay in the village preferably encircled by ice then
20150116 06:10:15< vultraz> heh
20150116 06:10:20< vultraz> hard, since I live in the tropics
20150116 06:11:10< Necrosporus> shallow water would also work
20150116 06:11:44< Necrosporus> Though it's hard to find a not-merman village in water
20150116 06:17:38< Necrosporus> # Make sure the two archers can't take him out! // resilient trait macro
20150116 06:17:51< Necrosporus> what if both archers are dextrous?
20150116 06:18:12< vultraz> point taken
20150116 06:18:20< vultraz> but that;s not really a concern 
20150116 06:18:30< vultraz> as I said, I removed a lot of this 'hard scripting'
20150116 06:18:49< Necrosporus> then why not to generate traits randomly?
20150116 06:18:56< Necrosporus> instead of just resilient
20150116 06:19:25< Necrosporus> or use two predefined traits
20150116 06:19:39< Necrosporus> since units normally have two traits not just one
20150116 06:20:17< vultraz> I do generate randomly
20150116 06:20:19< ancestral> For the tutorial, harcoding stuff is a good idea
20150116 06:20:38< vultraz> To an extent
20150116 06:20:44< vultraz> But it was too much
20150116 06:20:46< ancestral> Fewer variables, chances for it to break
20150116 06:20:48< vultraz> I did away with a lot of it
20150116 06:20:57< ancestral> Easier to answer questions new players have
20150116 06:21:29< ancestral> It’s like card games that say “don’t shuffle the deck the first time you play!”
20150116 06:21:32< Necrosporus> according to code Dumbo has only one trait
20150116 06:21:48< ancestral> Dumbo?
20150116 06:21:56< vultraz> the orc
20150116 06:21:59< vultraz> his name is generated :P
20150116 06:22:00< Necrosporus> A char from tutorial s2
20150116 06:22:03< vultraz> his id is dumbo
20150116 06:22:08< ancestral> Hah
20150116 06:22:18< ancestral> I was about to say, is his trait “flying”?
20150116 06:22:25< ancestral> (that’s a joke)
20150116 06:22:42< Necrosporus> resilient
20150116 06:23:42< ancestral> Is the tutorial one secnario long, or two?
20150116 06:23:49< Necrosporus> two
20150116 06:24:15< ancestral> When I first started palying, I was quite confused by that
20150116 06:24:17< Ravana_> ancestral: pound sign is £
20150116 06:24:21< ancestral> I assumed I was done after the first one
20150116 06:24:26< ancestral> Ravana_: I know, right?
20150116 06:24:39< Ravana_> "Comments are indicated by starting a line with a pound sign (#)"
20150116 06:24:44< Necrosporus> in first scenario you fight quintains  in second you fight few orcs
20150116 06:24:57< ancestral> Ravana_: I didn’t write that line, but it is called a pound sign
20150116 06:25:15< ancestral> Alternatives could include “hash” or “number sign”
20150116 06:25:43< ancestral> Necrosporus: Right, but it was never clear to me there were two scenarios
20150116 06:25:47< Necrosporus> But number sign is №
20150116 06:25:47< vultraz> HASHTAG COMMENT :D
20150116 06:26:29< ancestral> I think it should say somewhere at the beginning, something to the effecf of “in these two scenarios, you will learn…”
20150116 06:26:38< vultraz> hm
20150116 06:26:40< vultraz> yes
20150116 06:26:52< ancestral> (When I completed the first scenario, I thought I was done, and I wanted to play)
20150116 06:27:16< ancestral> (The other option is, keep it one scenario, and just move things around dynamically)
20150116 06:27:44< vultraz> that's...an idea
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20150116 06:27:57< vultraz> I could have like
20150116 06:28:04< ancestral> Necrosporus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_sign
20150116 06:28:06< ancestral> I win
20150116 06:28:24< vultraz> 'oh no! orcs have showed up! you must put your skills to the test'
20150116 06:29:05< ancestral> That could work :)
20150116 06:29:20< vultraz> that's actually a good idea
20150116 06:29:26< vultraz> I hadn't thought of it
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20150116 07:01:28< Ivanovic> shadowm: seems to be fine, the game compiles and the mail looks okay, too
20150116 07:11:00< shadowm> Phew.
20150116 07:11:25< shadowm> Well, I knew the game compiles because I did the mo-update before committing and already had a working build.
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20150116 07:23:19< Ivanovic> those are the normal checks i do
20150116 07:23:21< Ivanovic> ;)
20150116 07:23:46< Ivanovic> anyway, got to leave for work now, CU
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20150116 09:16:14< zookeeper> shadowm, ah, the DiD changes shouldn't have resulted in any added/changed strings (only removed some).
20150116 09:16:34< shadowm> You think?
20150116 09:16:55< shadowm> That's not what the diffs of both your commits and the pot-update say.
20150116 09:20:35< zookeeper> ah. i guess pot-update ignores strings in comments?
20150116 09:21:06< shadowm> wmlxgettext ignores commented-out crap, yes.
20150116 09:21:12< zookeeper> righty
20150116 09:21:29< zookeeper> i only reinstated those because i thought the strings were already there. oh well.
20150116 09:22:14< shadowm> I thought strings that have been previously removed are commented-out in the catalogues rather than dropped entirely, but it's possible it's been too long since those strings were removed and/or someone cleaned up the comments since then.
20150116 09:22:25< shadowm> Then again, it's only three strings.
20150116 09:23:03< shadowm> It pales in comparison to the number of spelling fix commits I had to painstakingly integrate into pofix.
20150116 09:23:07 * shadowm glares at vultraz.
20150116 09:23:20< vultraz> ^_^
20150116 09:24:06< vultraz> there should be no more then/than fixes, though
20150116 09:24:13< vultraz> I reviewed every single use in mainline
20150116 09:24:50< shadowm> So remove them from http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SpellingMistakes .
20150116 09:25:54< shadowm> Also the spurious Liberty entry.
20150116 09:27:54< vultraz> Done
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20150116 12:32:08< aquileia> vultraz: "units with the <i>quick</i> trait can move a extra hex each turn" : s/a/an, and it depends on the terrain
20150116 12:35:03< vultraz> perhaps I should say get one extra movement point?
20150116 12:37:24< vultraz> (I assume you're playing the tutorial?
20150116 12:40:10< Necrosporus> vultraz, line 141, why do you {gender } entire message instead of just string?
20150116 12:41:09< vultraz> because you can't?
20150116 12:42:11< Necrosporus> also message= _ "Let’s go! Attack!"
20150116 12:42:31< Necrosporus> In some languages text of message might change depending on gender
20150116 12:43:11< Necrosporus> Like in Japanese "me" or "I" would be translated differently depending on speaker gender
20150116 12:43:24< vultraz> I cannot genderize ever single student message
20150116 12:43:50< Necrosporus> it would rather be every single message
20150116 12:44:05< Necrosporus> not just 'student'
20150116 12:44:44< vultraz> well I cannot do that
20150116 12:45:05< vultraz> the point of the gender macro is to refer to each student different depending on whether they're konrad or lisar
20150116 12:45:16< vultraz> different text
20150116 12:45:49< Necrosporus> x,y=recall,recall / level=2
20150116 12:46:00< Necrosporus> maybe 2,3 just in case ?
20150116 12:46:14< vultraz> it's impossible to have a level 3 unit by that time
20150116 12:46:37< Necrosporus> I would not guarantee it
20150116 12:47:13< Necrosporus> you could get infinite xp by attacking a quintain repeatedly with a single unit and letting it heal 
20150116 12:47:30< Necrosporus> quintains are lvl1, not lvl0 right?
20150116 12:47:41< vultraz> there's a turn limit
20150116 12:47:43< vultraz> in s1
20150116 12:47:47< vultraz> 12 turns
20150116 12:47:54< vultraz> 4 quintains
20150116 12:48:09< vultraz> (4*8)+12=44
20150116 12:48:29< Necrosporus> quintain attacks too
20150116 12:48:43< Necrosporus> so it's 4*8+12*2
20150116 12:49:21< vultraz> 56
20150116 12:49:28< vultraz> still not enough to make a lvl 3
20150116 12:50:48< Necrosporus> How many xp is required to make an lvl3 fighter?
20150116 12:52:34< Necrosporus> What happens if you do not defeat the first quintain in 12 turn?
20150116 12:53:32< Necrosporus> Anyway you might be right about it being impossible _in current version_
20150116 12:53:47< Necrosporus> but someone might change the first scenario to increase turn limit
20150116 12:54:28< Necrosporus> and he won't probably know that in 2nd scenario he have to make an adjustment
20150116 12:54:51< Necrosporus> So i would add level=2,3 anyway, if this is supposed to work
20150116 12:55:12< Necrosporus> I'm not sure if this particular tag support comma notation as [or]
20150116 12:57:21< Necrosporus> vultraz, seems you mention recalling twice
20150116 12:57:39< Necrosporus> first time by galrad and second by narrator
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20150116 13:00:43< Necrosporus> It’s useful to attack enemy units with strong melee attacks with strong ranged attacks, and vice versa. / doesn't sound very clear. And beside, it's not always true
20150116 13:01:23< Necrosporus> Sometimes it's wise to attack melee units with melee so when enemy counterattacks he would get strong retaliation
20150116 13:02:15< vultraz> yes
20150116 13:02:30< vultraz> I'll mention a gameplay element
20150116 13:02:36< vultraz> and then have a narrative explanation
20150116 13:03:30< Necrosporus> > each captured village will support one unit provide you with 1 extra gold per turn
20150116 13:03:45< Necrosporus> I guess there is a missing comma or something
20150116 13:03:56< Necrosporus> perhaps 'and'
20150116 13:04:54< Necrosporus> > have negative income and lose gold per turn! // maybe lose gold each turn?
20150116 13:06:22< vultraz> agreed
20150116 13:08:19< Necrosporus> > you’ll only have a 30% chance of being hit in return. // but fighters have 40% chance to being hit in forest
20150116 13:08:44< vultraz> ah, good point
20150116 13:08:51< vultraz> I forgot they have 60 and not 70
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20150116 13:23:17< Necrosporus> > It might do to send a few units to defend the banks, and the village there. // is this sentence OK?
20150116 13:23:23< Necrosporus> might do what?
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20150116 13:28:57< Necrosporus> {TALK_ABOUT_LOC 19,5 ( _ "Don’t forget about that last village near the channel. They orcs will capture if it they try to sneak around via the ford! It will be hard to dislodge them of they do.")}
20150116 13:29:07< Necrosporus> Maybe that village is already secured?
20150116 13:29:21< Necrosporus> I guess you might only show this message if it's not?
20150116 13:30:07< vultraz> Still relevant
20150116 13:30:10< vultraz> they'll capture it
20150116 13:30:19< vultraz> the meaning can be taken to mean
20150116 13:30:39< vultraz> 'don't forget [to capture]' or 'don't forget [to protect]'
20150116 13:31:09< Necrosporus> [message] / speaker=student / message= _ "You’re venturing away from your keep
20150116 13:31:20< Necrosporus> I guess you have wrong speaker
20150116 13:31:54< vultraz> ah
20150116 13:31:56< vultraz> thanks
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20150116 13:32:45< Necrosporus> Anyway, wording is clumsy and if player has several unit near the village this message seem superfluos
20150116 13:33:35< Necrosporus> I would rather check if there are enemies in the ford water and no player units near the village (radius 2 perhaps)
20150116 13:33:44< Necrosporus> and show the message only then
20150116 13:34:52< Necrosporus> No need to repeat the sentence unless player doesn't seem to follow it already
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20150116 13:36:35< irker935> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master a4789af29b85 / data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/02_Tutorial_part_2.cfg: T S2: some minor text fixes suggested by Necrosporus http://git.io/Jo-o_g
20150116 13:36:36< irker935> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master e4c0bd9508d1 / data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/02_Tutorial_part_2.cfg: T S2: catch level 3units for recalling dialog http://git.io/7pPWJw
20150116 13:36:37< irker935> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 2b1338f31e76 / data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/02_Tutorial_part_2.cfg: T S2: corrected mention of elvish CTH if they're on forest http://git.io/XzfHzQ
20150116 13:36:39< irker935> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master a98cfa4a57e9 / data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/02_Tutorial_part_2.cfg: T S2: fixed an incorrect speaker on a message http://git.io/hYFtPQ
20150116 13:36:47< vultraz> well, I think it's general advice. you shouldn't forget about extranious villages
20150116 13:38:20< Necrosporus> > {TALK_ABOUT_LOC 11,14 (_"We need to occupy that village, otherwise they will take it next turn! /// I'm not sure if this is necessary but it might be good idea to check if there are enemy units in range
20150116 13:38:41< vultraz> did I forget to change that?
20150116 13:43:56< vultraz> hm
20150116 13:44:10< vultraz> im not sure a simple way to do that
20150116 13:44:37< vultraz> of a*
20150116 13:45:15< Ravana_> "each captured village will support one unit" that is quite difficult part to understand
20150116 13:45:40< Ravana_> does it have example there?
20150116 13:46:33< vultraz> well...
20150116 13:46:38< vultraz> in S1 it says 'Each village you control will <i>support</i> one unit for free.'
20150116 13:48:23< vultraz> but I guess I should clarify that
20150116 13:48:28< vultraz> and again in s2 when i remind the player
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20150116 14:18:21< Necrosporus> > unit who finishes him will gain 16 experience points because he is second level. Choose your attacking unit carefully!")} / but actually that means end of tutorial
20150116 14:18:30< Necrosporus> so that xp is wasted anyways
20150116 14:19:46< Necrosporus> name=unit.gender / equals=male
20150116 14:20:19< Necrosporus> I guess it's better to use not_equals=female I'm not sure what happens with units who do not have gender in their unittype
20150116 14:20:26< Necrosporus> is this variable empty?
20150116 14:20:37< Necrosporus> or it defaults to male?
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20150116 14:22:25< vultraz> defaults to male
20150116 14:22:36< vultraz> well
20150116 14:22:45< vultraz> more like it's random decided when you recruit the unit
20150116 14:22:50< vultraz> but it's always set to something
20150116 14:23:16< Necrosporus> could it be neither or hermaphrodite?
20150116 14:23:27< Necrosporus> or anything else?
20150116 14:24:02< vultraz> no
20150116 14:24:15< vultraz> seriously, why would we have ever implemented such a thing
20150116 14:24:26< Necrosporus> but does gender make sense for ships?
20150116 14:24:47< vultraz> we do not have ships in the tutorial
20150116 14:24:57< Necrosporus> I'm talking in general
20150116 14:25:12< vultraz> well
20150116 14:25:14< vultraz> hm
20150116 14:25:18< vultraz> actually I think in that case it's not set
20150116 14:25:25< vultraz> but that doesn't matter in the tutorial
20150116 14:25:45< Necrosporus> so it might be safer to use not_equals=female than equals=male
20150116 14:25:58< vultraz> no
20150116 14:26:30< Necrosporus> maybe not in this case if both fighters and archers have gender dimorphism
20150116 14:27:39< Necrosporus> gender: can be set to male or female to designate the gender of the unit. Default is male, but if the unit has only a female variant it will be female. 
20150116 14:28:11< Necrosporus> It might be that ships are male
20150116 14:28:22< vultraz> I guess so
20150116 14:31:12< vultraz> do you have any feature suggestions
20150116 14:31:19< Necrosporus> But in some language there are more than two grammatical genders
20150116 14:31:31< Necrosporus> Even in English
20150116 14:32:17< vultraz> This doesn't have to do with grammar
20150116 14:32:33< vultraz> it's a check on the variable
20150116 14:35:47< Necrosporus> I do not have a meaningful suggestion yet because I didn't research about using gender tag in code
20150116 14:36:25< Necrosporus> But I guess if someone wants to have three-gendered aliens it could be done with variations
20150116 14:37:18< Necrosporus> Also I wonder what's about ships?
20150116 14:38:03< Necrosporus> They are usually referred in female gender in English, right?
20150116 14:38:20< Necrosporus> But it's not the case in other languages
20150116 14:39:40< Necrosporus> Also there might be languages with more than just two grammatic genders and gender in unit type is probably mostly used to have different names for males and females
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20150116 15:12:52< Necrosporus> I think that using gender in unit type is not documented clearly enough
20150116 15:13:21< Necrosporus> could someone take a look, zookeeper perhaps? http://wiki.wesnoth.org/UnitTypeWML
20150116 15:14:44< Necrosporus> gender in [unit] means that created unit should have specific gender, but what it does within [unit_type] ?
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20150116 15:50:15< Necrosporus> vultraz, maybe when student dies there should be some message too?
20150116 15:50:44< Necrosporus> "I'm too young to die!" for example
20150116 16:08:42< Necrosporus> vultraz, you have changed 30% to 40% but player might have an archer there
20150116 16:08:51< Necrosporus> So 30% would be valid
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20150116 18:47:40< lipkab> zookeeper: I challenge you again! (If you want to play)
20150116 18:48:34< zookeeper> sure!
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20150116 20:12:07< lipkab> zookeeper: I'll be afk for half an hour now, but we can play another game later if you're thirsty for revenge.
20150116 20:12:32< zookeeper> probably not today
20150116 20:12:39< lipkab> Okay.
20150116 20:12:59< zookeeper> besides i don't need revenge for still having a 2-1 lead :P
20150116 20:13:46< lipkab> Hah! So you're running away, in fact! :P
20150116 20:14:17< zookeeper> a tactical withdrawal
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20150116 20:46:09< vultraz> zookeeper: opinions? https://www.dropbox.com/s/9e8z4tvyf2u6rsl/better_castle-cave_transis.PNG?dl=0
20150116 20:47:42< vultraz> basically, I made some local changes to disable castle walls over cave walls for all castle terrains so they transition with cave walls like dwarvish castles
20150116 20:47:51< vultraz> wondering if I should commit/PR it
20150116 20:49:41< Necrosporus> I'm not sure if it's a good idea to disable castle-to-castle transitions
20150116 20:50:12< Necrosporus> What if it's desirable to have two castles side by side?
20150116 20:50:31< vultraz> I didn't say castle to castle
20150116 20:50:37< vultraz> I said castle walls over cave walls
20150116 20:51:45< zookeeper> i got nothing to compare to
20150116 20:51:51< zookeeper> i can check in the editor, but later
20150116 20:52:05 * zookeeper is afk watching a movie
20150116 20:52:11< Necrosporus> vultraz, in your image there is a piece of castle of other type
20150116 20:52:19< Necrosporus> I mean the walls
20150116 20:52:23< Necrosporus> did you notice?
20150116 20:52:23< vultraz> yes
20150116 20:52:29< vultraz> deliberate
20150116 20:52:42< vultraz> we don't have cave-castle transitions for all castle terrains
20150116 20:52:44< Necrosporus> What is the reason to?
20150116 20:52:52< vultraz> someone would have to make the images
20150116 20:53:02< vultraz> and I, for one, do not intend to do that right this minute
20150116 20:53:45< Necrosporus> I would not commit such a change into stable release if there is no proper transitions for all other castle types
20150116 20:54:20< vultraz> Why would I commit it to 1.12?
20150116 20:54:23< vultraz> it would be master
20150116 20:54:43< vultraz> zookeeper, Necrosporus: https://www.dropbox.com/s/n57wewwuxh76w2s/castle-cave-transis-old.PNG?dl=0
20150116 20:55:03< vultraz> that to what you see in the first shot
20150116 20:55:59< Necrosporus> Walls hanging in emptyness is quite weird true
20150116 20:56:06< vultraz> perhaps shadowm could also weigh in
20150116 20:56:09< Necrosporus> is it what you are going to see in 1.12 for now?
20150116 20:56:25< shadowm> zookeeper is better at this stuff than me.
20150116 20:56:48< Necrosporus> What about gender= in [unit_type] ?
20150116 20:56:57< Necrosporus> What is it going to do?
20150116 20:57:06< shadowm> What it's always done.
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20150116 20:57:53< Necrosporus> And what is it? in [unit] it is obviously going to make a unit with predefined gender (like facing in [unit])
20150116 20:58:06< shadowm> Define which genders the unit type supports.
20150116 20:58:29< shadowm> Or more accurately, enumerate them.
20150116 20:59:48< Necrosporus> > gender: has a value of either male or female, and determines which of the keys male_names and female_names should be read. When a unit of this type is recruited, it will be randomly assigned a name by the random name generator, which will use these names as a base. 
20150116 20:59:56< Necrosporus> That's what wiki says
20150116 21:00:04< shadowm> The wiki has incomplete information.
20150116 21:00:34< shadowm> Just read the Elvish Archer, Elvish Fighter, and Elvish Shaman's WML for examples of correct usage.
20150116 21:00:58< Necrosporus> Could other than male or female genders are defined
20150116 21:01:06< vultraz> On the subject of the wiki, I removed the note from SingleUnitWML saying placement=map_overwrite is broken, it's not
20150116 21:01:17< vultraz> Necrosporus: WHY would you do such a thing
20150116 21:01:51< Necrosporus> Because it doesn't make sense to have gender=male or gender=female for some units such as mud crawlers or ships
20150116 21:02:07< shadowm> If you don't specify a gender, it's male by default.
20150116 21:02:56< Necrosporus> Shouldn't units like I listed and also fire guardians have gender=neuther or none for example?
20150116 21:03:04< shadowm> No.
20150116 21:03:51< Necrosporus> What if some races are three-gendered or something like that?
20150116 21:04:00< shadowm> The implementation of this crap is complicated enough as it is and there are very few legitimate use cases for additional genders in coding, and those can be implemented using standard variations if you are clever enough.
20150116 21:04:13< shadowm> And I'm not just pulling that out of my ass, because I actually did it.
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20150116 21:06:16< Necrosporus> there is also a problem, some words have specific genders in specific languages, how is it solved?
20150116 21:06:37< Necrosporus> I'm talking about grammatical genders this time
20150116 21:06:39< shadowm> That's up to translators and the scenario designer.
20150116 21:09:28< Necrosporus> for example 'quick' could be translated as "быстрый" for males and "быстрая" for females, and also "быстрое" for neuter. Let's there is a unit called superweapon. If it's translated into russian it would sound like "супероружие" which has neuter grammatic gender
20150116 21:10:00< shadowm> God.
20150116 21:10:59< Necrosporus> How one could make sure that trait names are translated correctly for such a unit?
20150116 21:11:37< shadowm> You can't.
20150116 21:12:20< shadowm> Is this a problem? Yes, it is. Should it be solved? Yes, by all means, but the costs currently outweigh the benefits.
20150116 21:12:34< shadowm> Has anyone encountered this problem before? Yes.
20150116 21:13:25< shadowm> You are not asking questions nobody has asked before. Unfortunately it's hard to help you since you seem to prefer asking hypotheticals rather than specifically ask how to do XYZ thing you need to do.
20150116 21:13:44< Necrosporus> Ok, let's say there is other unit, cuttlefish, which even actually presents  in game
20150116 21:14:09< shadowm> If you wanted to give a 'quick' trait (or any other standard trait) to a unit like the one you just provided for an example, I'd just say you are nutty.
20150116 21:14:10< Necrosporus> How to make sure it has its traits using female grammatic gender in Russian?
20150116 21:14:29< shadowm> You can't.
20150116 21:14:34< Necrosporus> cuttlefish case is less hypotetical
20150116 21:15:03< Necrosporus> shadowm, what if add gender=female to cuttlefish [unit_type]?
20150116 21:15:10< shadowm> You can't!
20150116 21:15:47< shadowm> I mean, you can if you make your own distinct cuttlefish unit type, but at the same time you'll break other translations. Cuttlefish is a male name in Spanish, for example.
20150116 21:16:30< Necrosporus> So this problem is not solved? Is there a wiki page or something documenting this problem/
20150116 21:16:37< shadowm> Okay, it's actually a female name, but that's not the point.
20150116 21:16:56< shadowm> There's nothing that guarantees all languages for which it matters use the same gender.
20150116 21:23:06< Necrosporus> ok, there is "Tentacle of the deep" which is translated in neuter gender into Russian "Щупальце из глубин" or something
20150116 21:24:01< Necrosporus> And tentacles are chaotic which should be translated as "хаотичное" in case of neuter gender
20150116 21:32:03< vultraz> shadowm: is PR #323 still relevant
20150116 21:33:15< shadowm> No.
20150116 21:34:09< Necrosporus> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Language_and_Translation_Issues
20150116 21:34:34< Necrosporus> shadowm, other question. Is it going to get solved in 1.13 for example?
20150116 21:34:43< shadowm> Patches welcome.
20150116 21:35:29< Necrosporus> Are there existing plans to solve it by specific version?
20150116 21:35:35< shadowm> No.
20150116 21:42:33< Necrosporus> Are there strings for neuter gender traits/abilities/etc at all in German (or Russian or any other language which has neuter grammatical gender) po-files?
20150116 21:44:39< Necrosporus> Let's say an UMC author wants to make a unit type which has neuter grammatical gender in his native language. Could he make the game to translate standard traits/alignments or anything into neuter gender in any way even by breaking compatibility with other languages?
20150116 21:45:33< Necrosporus> If it were female gender the answer would be 'yes' and the solution would be add gender=female into [unit_type]
20150116 21:49:55< Necrosporus> shadowm, is it possible to make a unit which gives 0 xp for being killed?
20150116 21:50:30< Necrosporus> or any other amount not from {4, 8, 16 .... 8n} set
20150116 21:50:56< Necrosporus> beside using events
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20150116 22:19:20< Necrosporus> there were at least one topic discussing the matter http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2926
20150116 22:21:34< Necrosporus> Though it ended abruptly ten years ago. 
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20150116 22:43:34< zookeeper> vultraz, no, i think the original is better, based on your screenshots
20150116 22:44:57< zookeeper> it doesn't make "sense", but there's no obvious glitching going on
20150116 22:45:13< zookeeper> (and of course i'm not saying those glitches make "sense" either)
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 17 00:00:05 2015