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20150106 21:36:36< dfTruF> Greetings, this is official IRC channel for wesnoth?
20150106 21:39:54< celticminstrel> Yes?
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20150106 21:43:53< dfTruF> I had question with campaigns
20150106 21:44:07< dfTruF> Are there any campaigns without turn limit ?
20150106 21:44:34< celticminstrel> I'm guessing not, but I don't really know.
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20150106 22:04:53< HeyCitizen> wiki.wesnoth.org/Mainline_Campaigns
20150106 22:15:10< dfTruF> Probably over 99% maps, in campaigns, are with turn limit
20150106 22:15:55< dfTruF> which make the game terribly linear, on harder difficulty levels
20150106 22:17:12< shadowm> Yeah, why don't campaign designers give us the ability to milk infinite gold and XP from maps?
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20150106 22:19:16< dfTruF> And designers are forced to make such levels (with possibility of grinding)?
20150106 22:20:01< dfTruF> why foes don't capitulate at random moments?
20150106 22:20:30< dfTruF> when they are doomed?
20150106 22:20:51< dfTruF> apparently
20150106 22:24:02< dfTruF> turn limit transforms every strategy game to puzzle solving game (in my opinion)
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20150106 22:40:33< zookeeper> dfTruF, well how would you solve the problem of milking XP and gold?
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20150106 22:44:00< dfTruF> foes' capitulation and removing some bonuses
20150106 22:44:37< zookeeper> and capitulation meaning for example that..?
20150106 22:45:46< dfTruF> capitulation of course at random moments when foe is with obvious weaker force units
20150106 22:49:02< zookeeper> right
20150106 22:49:08< dfTruF> computer algorithms know how to calculate and check balance based on numbers
20150106 22:49:31< zookeeper> sure, but no one knows what that algorithm would look like exactly :p
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20150106 22:49:44< zookeeper> but i guess it could work well enough in a game like this, maybe
20150106 22:49:47< dfTruF> that even better for player
20150106 22:51:57< dfTruF> besides,  random element do things more "mysterious" for a player
20150106 22:54:01< zookeeper> well, sure, i believe it could work if most scenarios worked that way
20150106 22:54:11< zookeeper> assuming the capitulation worked well enough
20150106 22:54:46< zookeeper> but still as soon as the player learns how the algorithm works, they could avoid crossing that line and prolong the scenario indefinitely
20150106 22:55:28< dfTruF> i say that random element should prevent it
20150106 22:55:29< celticminstrel> Eh, attempting to prevent players from "cheating" like that is kind of silly...
20150106 22:56:20< zookeeper> the enemy can't just randomly surrender, they must only do so when they clearly can't win anymore... and the player could easily keep the situation "even" enough to prevent that
20150106 22:56:50< zookeeper> but sure, one could argue that if you want to play a 100 turns milking XP then that's not a problem because you're not having that much fun anyway
20150106 22:57:45< dfTruF> player can use save-scumming too
20150106 22:58:08< dfTruF> and is forced to do this in turn limits, on harder difficulty
20150106 23:00:12< dfTruF> it is better to play without save-scumming
20150106 23:00:19< dfTruF> right?
20150106 23:00:56< zookeeper> right, but save-scumming isn't really abusing the gamerules themselves in the same sense
20150106 23:02:00< dfTruF> because then it is more like puzzle game
20150106 23:02:09< zookeeper> if you know that you'll get more XP if you don't kill those couple of enemy units now, then it's pretty hard to justify to yourself how that would be unfair or cheating in any way
20150106 23:02:09< dfTruF> not strategy
20150106 23:02:33< zookeeper> whether it's pretty obvious how reloading because you got bad luck is cheating
20150106 23:02:51< zookeeper> anyway... if you feel so inclined, you could make an alternate version of some mainline campaign and see how well it works
20150106 23:03:14< zookeeper> the only way to know for sure is to try it
20150106 23:04:10< zookeeper> you wouldn't need to touch any of the engine code to implement the surrendering calculations and such, i believe, since it should be most natural to write those using the fancy AI systems we now have
20150106 23:04:25< dfTruF> cool
20150106 23:04:26< Ravana_> no turn limit would be viable if enemy power would increase exponentially over time
20150106 23:05:24< celticminstrel> Why exponentially?
20150106 23:06:00< Ravana_> else there would just be certain level you need to reach and once again you can delay forever
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20150106 23:07:54< zookeeper> gold probably would be easier to handle, since you could just have the carryover amount go from full (whatever that is) at turn 1 to 0 at turn X (which is whatever the scenario designer deems appropriate)
20150106 23:07:59< zookeeper> or something similar
20150106 23:09:46< dfTruF> gold bonuses can be removed, and next mission started with minimal gold.
20150106 23:14:45< dfTruF> capitulation idea is bad in your opinion?
20150106 23:14:52< zookeeper> one thing you might not be taking into account is how it'd radically change how you'd approach a scenario:
20150106 23:14:53< zookeeper> currently the turn limit usually forces you to attack somewhat aggressively, but without it the safest way to play would easily become grabbing some villages, setting up good defensive positions and then waging a long but safe war of attrition.
20150106 23:16:47< zookeeper> well i don't think the capitulation thing would really work as well as it'd need to. the enemy might occasionally end up surrendering at a silly moment, or surrendering before something you wanted to do in the scenario, etc
20150106 23:17:07< dfTruF> turn limit usually forces you to do things in the same linear way as the designer think it should be done. It is similar to set train on the same track
20150106 23:17:52< zookeeper> well, sure, i guess in most scenarios there's usually not many radically different ways to do it
20150106 23:18:16< dfTruF> terrible linearity
20150106 23:19:16< zookeeper> i don't think it's that bad :p
20150106 23:19:46< dfTruF> enemies should be unpredictable when they are on losing position
20150106 23:20:20< dfTruF> they can even blow themselves
20150106 23:20:27< dfTruF> or should
20150106 23:20:42< dfTruF> it should be unpredictable
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20150106 23:21:26< HeyCitizen> wouldn't pvp be ultimately non-linear?
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20150106 23:23:08< dfTruF> we talk about campaign mode
20150106 23:23:26< dfTruF> against computer
20150106 23:23:47< HeyCitizen> I imagined the multiplayer portion of the game, and the AI, as a sort of breeding ground for scenario/campaign ideas
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20150106 23:25:27< HeyCitizen> having many paralel scenarios that are more elaborate and complex make the linearity be obscured
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20150106 23:25:59< dfTruF> so maybe sand-box style like in "Cities of frontier"?
20150106 23:27:46< zookeeper> so, got any scenarios where you'd have wanted to do something different but the turn limit prevented that?
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20150106 23:27:58< HeyCitizen> what is cities of frontier?
20150106 23:28:03< dfTruF> almost all :)
20150106 23:28:41< dfTruF> campaign
20150106 23:28:46< zookeeper> right...
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20150106 23:33:56< zookeeper> and i'm guessing you'd usually prefer a slower build-up phase in the beginning of the scenario?
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20150106 23:35:50< dfTruF> i prefer free hand in choosing strategy depends on lucky/unlucky coincidencies
20150106 23:38:15< zookeeper> i'm sure everyone does
20150106 23:40:06< dfTruF> sadly to say but in most campaigns player is forced to go on designer's favorised tracks
20150106 23:41:18< dfTruF> favored
20150106 23:41:39 * zookeeper shrugs
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20150106 23:43:48< zookeeper> i can't say i still have a clear example in mind
20150106 23:45:49< dfTruF> example? what about other  99% maps?
20150106 23:47:10< HeyCitizen> what "favorised tracks" for example
20150106 23:47:21< dfTruF> almost all
20150106 23:48:03< dfTruF> and turn limit is the main leash to force it on player
20150106 23:48:04< zookeeper> ...
20150106 23:49:10< zookeeper> example of 1) what track the turn limit forced you onto and 2) what track you'd have wanted to try instead
20150106 23:50:28< dfTruF> one by one ? I should analyse all campaigns?
20150106 23:50:39< HeyCitizen> just one for example
20150106 23:51:01< HeyCitizen> no one understands what you mean
20150106 23:52:04< dfTruF> for example in "carved on stone"
20150106 23:52:21-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20150106 23:52:50< zookeeper> i don't know what that is, it's not mainline
20150106 23:53:04< dfTruF> but it is popular
20150106 23:54:23< HeyCitizen> "This campaign is by no means finished at this point of time. Yet, I decided to release the campaign since the current progress of the campaign development allows a thematic cut resulting in a roughly closed plot. This first part now needs your attention and gaming expertise. I would appreciate it very much, if you had the time to play through this part and give me feedback. Help me make a good campaign out of it."
20150106 23:55:14< dfTruF> all main campaigns have turn limits from 24 to about 32 in 99 % cases right?
20150106 23:55:41< HeyCitizen> most scenarios from all campaigns yess
20150106 23:56:29< dfTruF> and this extorts linearity (in my opinion)
20150106 23:58:27< dfTruF> maybe in over 95%
20150106 23:59:15< HeyCitizen> I am trying to imagine chess with turn limits....
--- Log closed Wed Jan 07 00:00:19 2015