--- Log opened Fri Jan 16 00:00:35 2015
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20150116 04:09:27< Molt> hey everyone
20150116 04:13:34< Necrosporus> hello
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20150116 04:30:06< Molt> working on my map. up in multiplayer testing if anyone wants to see
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20150116 04:59:05< Necrosporus> Molt, there is {SCATTER_UNITS} macro, look at http://www.wesnoth.org/macro-reference.xhtml
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20150116 05:15:06< Necrosporus> Molt, so have you finished working on wml code somehow?
20150116 05:17:57< Molt> everything is working , but I'm still coding the story. implementing chapter by chapter if you know what 	 mean
20150116 05:18:03< Molt> what i mean
20150116 05:21:01< Necrosporus> I also would maybe recommend you to make your scenario a separate file
20150116 05:21:41< Necrosporus> You have everything in _main.cfg, it works but probably not quite manageable if you are going to make several scenarios
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20150116 05:22:50< vultraz> each scenario should be a separate file
20150116 05:22:56< Molt> only making one scenario
20150116 05:23:13< Molt> coding events
20150116 05:23:22< Necrosporus> vultraz, it's technically not necessary, you could put all code into _main.cfg
20150116 05:24:02< Necrosporus> What do you think about having only addon's scenario in _main.cfg?
20150116 05:24:51< vultraz> horrible
20150116 05:25:26< vultraz> you could put all of wesnoth's WML in a 50,000 line _main.cfg if you wanted
20150116 05:25:30< vultraz> good idea?
20150116 05:25:32< vultraz> no
20150116 05:26:02< vultraz> each scenario should have its own file
20150116 05:26:30< Necrosporus> So you recommend Molt put his scenario's code into separate file even though it's only scenario in the addon
20150116 05:27:11< Necrosporus> Molt, you might want to add more scenarios later or use this addon as base for other one
20150116 05:27:21< Necrosporus> or someone might use your addon as a template
20150116 05:27:43< vultraz> yes
20150116 05:27:59< Necrosporus> That's the reason to move your scenario's code out of _main.cfg
20150116 05:28:25< Necrosporus> Though I recommend to make sure your code works before you do it, then actually do it
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20150116 05:30:15< Necrosporus> So if it won't work after you could be sure it's because you didn't include it properly
20150116 05:30:31< vultraz> ...
20150116 05:30:44< vultraz> the matter of including code is absurdly trivial
20150116 05:31:00< vultraz> it's not rocket science
20150116 05:31:17< Necrosporus> well, I would do what I suggested anyway
20150116 05:32:24< Necrosporus> {~add-ons/Addon_Name/scenarios/3p_Some_Survivial.cfg}
20150116 05:32:29< Necrosporus> Like that?
20150116 05:33:11< vultraz> no
20150116 05:33:17< vultraz> {~add-ons/Addon_Name/scenarios}
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20150116 06:03:04< ancestral> It’s not hard at all to move content to separate scenario files. It’d be almost trivial
20150116 06:03:24< ancestral> Unlike earlier when we were struggling to get your scenario to show up (largely because of that pesky comment that began with the word “define”)
20150116 06:03:44< ancestral> vultraz: Turns out having a comment that starts with the word “define” is a bad idea in WML :-P
20150116 06:04:05< vultraz> well no shit, sherlock :P
20150116 06:04:20< vultraz> #define random comment random comment random comment
20150116 06:04:21< ancestral> Took me a good while before I noticed rthat’s where the problem lay
20150116 06:05:19< ancestral> vultraz: Do you have a coding standard, like starting each comment immediately with a space, to prevent pre-processor directives from accidentally firing?
20150116 06:05:57< vultraz> I always start a comment with a space
20150116 06:06:00< vultraz> # this is a comment
20150116 06:06:06< ancestral> Right
20150116 06:06:10< celticminstrel> My editor highlights preprocessor directives differently.
20150116 06:06:17< celticminstrel> But I generally do start comments with a space.
20150116 06:06:19< ancestral> That’s smart
20150116 06:06:27< vultraz> it makes things easier to read
20150116 06:06:53< ancestral> Maybe that kind of advice should go in the wiki
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20150116 06:13:20< Necrosporus> ancestral, for me I always put a space after # when I'm making a comment
20150116 06:13:42< Necrosporus> For aesthetic reasons though
20150116 06:13:43< ancestral> Then it’s settled
20150116 06:14:12< Necrosporus> maybe not when I'm commenting a chunk of code though
20150116 06:14:22< vultraz> right
20150116 06:16:07< Necrosporus> Why is not a special character used for preprocessor instead of comment symbol?
20150116 06:16:12< Necrosporus> Like %define
20150116 06:17:24< ancestral> Necrosporus: It borrows from other programming languages
20150116 06:17:30< ancestral> like shell scripting
20150116 06:17:34< vultraz> and C++
20150116 06:18:48< ancestral> vultraz, Necrosporus: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SyntaxWML#Comments
20150116 06:19:13< ancestral> 2nd paragraph is what I added
20150116 06:27:02< Necrosporus> I'm not sure if it's a pound sign
20150116 06:28:42< Necrosporus> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_sign
20150116 06:28:54< Necrosporus> Maybe you should change it into number sign or hash?
20150116 06:30:21< ancestral> Necrosporus: I dunno, I leave that to people with more clout and stronger opinions, like vultraz or shadowm, etc.
20150116 06:30:37< vultraz> It IS a pound sign
20150116 06:30:41< vultraz> it's also a number sign
20150116 06:30:52< vultraz> it's also a hash
20150116 06:30:56< ancestral> It’s not a pound sign if you’re in the U.K., apparently
20150116 06:31:08< Necrosporus> hash sign probably has no other meanings beside #?
20150116 06:31:19< vultraz> hashtag :P
20150116 06:31:34< ancestral> hash-bang is #!
20150116 06:31:55< Necrosporus> while 'number sign' might mean № and 'pound sign' might mean £
20150116 06:32:08< Necrosporus> she-bang
20150116 06:32:50< ancestral> corned beef hash is 🌽🍖# :-P
20150116 06:33:12< ancestral> (Won’t show up unless you have a color emoji font)
20150116 06:33:43< vultraz> it showed up
20150116 06:35:07< ancestral> Apparently № is called the “numero” sign
20150116 06:35:57< celticminstrel> I usually call # the number sign.
20150116 06:36:06< celticminstrel> I've never really thought of it as a pound sign.
20150116 06:36:10< ancestral> Octothorpe!
20150116 06:36:15< Necrosporus> But it's actually an octothorp
20150116 06:36:24< celticminstrel> Sure.
20150116 06:36:50< celticminstrel> But if you say that, I doubt many people will know what you're talking about.
20150116 06:37:16< ancestral> Necrosporus: OH NO now we have to debate whether it has an ‘e’ at the end or not!
20150116 06:38:00< ancestral> celticminstrel: Correct
20150116 06:38:07< Necrosporus> ancestral, it could also be spelled other ways
20150116 06:38:21< celticminstrel> It could, but all those other ways would be wrong.
20150116 06:38:34< ancestral> Or we could just skittishly use ‘#’ every time and avoid calling it anything than by its character :-P
20150116 06:38:51< vultraz> hashtag comment
20150116 06:38:55< vultraz> hashtag define macro name
20150116 06:38:57< vultraz> :P
20150116 06:39:08< ancestral> vultraz: hashtag implies you’re tagging something
20150116 06:39:21< ancestral> Like tagging a tweet
20150116 06:39:41< ancestral> A comment is not a tag
20150116 06:39:48< ancestral> …most of the time
20150116 06:40:13< ancestral> Good comments are going to be more than one word
20150116 06:40:15< Necrosporus> I guess hashtag is a name of #something, not the name of '#'
20150116 06:40:27< ancestral> Correct
20150116 06:40:28< celticminstrel> It's not uncommon to have comments that are tags.
20150116 06:40:36< celticminstrel> / TODO: blah blah blah
20150116 06:40:38< celticminstrel> ^//
20150116 06:41:05< ancestral> I guess it depends if you’re saying the whole line or just the first word
20150116 06:41:45< ancestral> If you want to get pedantic… if you adopt the space after the # then it’s just ‘hash’
20150116 06:42:16< ancestral> #tag would be ‘hashtag’ ;-)
20150116 06:42:41< celticminstrel> I think "octothorpe" is more correct by English spelling rules.
20150116 06:43:12< celticminstrel> But because there's an R after the O, "octothorp" could also be considered correct.
20150116 06:43:16< ancestral> SCREW IT! LET’S JUST CHANGE THE CHARACTER FOR COMMENTS :-P
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20150116 06:43:30< celticminstrel> Or change the character for preprocessor statements.
20150116 06:43:44< ancestral> I’m guessing that would require way more engine changes
20150116 06:43:56< celticminstrel> It's kind of baffling that they use the same character.
20150116 06:44:02< ancestral> There could be C programs that preprocess these files, yes?
20150116 06:44:12< celticminstrel> What has that got to do with anything?
20150116 06:44:27< celticminstrel> The preprocessor is not compatible with C's preprocessor.
20150116 06:44:41< ancestral> Okay
20150116 06:44:44< celticminstrel> The define statements are completely different, and there are extra if-type statements.
20150116 06:45:13< celticminstrel> And even if it was compatible, being written in C does not imply that a program will use the C preprocessor for anything.
20150116 06:46:12< ancestral> In that case, fine, then if you make that change, and drop backwards compatability, nearly every scenario will break
20150116 06:46:35< ancestral> If you adopt backwards compatability then you haven’t solved the problem either ;-)
20150116 06:47:10< ancestral> (My suggestion is totally not serious, but if something was going to be done, it shoudl be adopting a secondary prefix for comments)
20150116 06:47:31< ancestral> Maybe double slash // or something
20150116 06:47:38< Necrosporus> I would recommend to get rid of WML
20150116 06:47:45< Necrosporus> Maybe for wesnoth 2.0 ?
20150116 06:47:56< celticminstrel> At least get rid of EventWML.
20150116 06:48:16< celticminstrel> Sorry, ActionWML.
20150116 06:48:17< Necrosporus> But not to break backward compatibility in WML as long as it called WML
20150116 06:48:46< Necrosporus> Not to change preprocessor / comment signs 
20150116 06:49:00< ancestral> “Necrosporus: I would recommend to get rid of WML” OMG yes!
20150116 06:49:13< vultraz> WML is good, but not for complex logic
20150116 06:49:17< ancestral> Go all in with Lua
20150116 06:49:18< vultraz> that's why we have LUA
20150116 06:49:34< vultraz> Lua sucks for the meta markup
20150116 06:49:36< Necrosporus> I think a new language should be designed
20150116 06:49:37< celticminstrel> Yeah.
20150116 06:49:58< celticminstrel> I don't think WML is bad for the data.
20150116 06:49:59< ancestral> Use WML just for the config data
20150116 06:50:05< ancestral> Right
20150116 06:50:09< vultraz> use lua for complex logic, wml for the scripting and config
20150116 06:50:12< celticminstrel> But Lua is far superior for the programming.
20150116 06:50:18< vultraz> yes
20150116 06:50:23< Necrosporus> Why not to design a completely new language which is good both for data and code?
20150116 06:50:36< celticminstrel> Because those requirements are somewhat orthogonal.
20150116 06:50:45< vultraz> yea
20150116 06:50:50< Necrosporus> Well, isn't Tcl good enough for both?
20150116 06:50:55< celticminstrel> Uh, no?
20150116 06:50:57< ancestral> vultraz: If I were designing/redesigning, I would avoid wml for scripting altogether
20150116 06:50:59< Necrosporus> Why not?
20150116 06:51:07< celticminstrel> Tcl is a programming language. It wouldn't be any better for data than Lua is.
20150116 06:51:12< ancestral> But I totally get Sirp and the other devs stuck with it because they thought it was fun
20150116 06:51:53< ancestral> Necrosporus: Designing a new language is probably going to leave it even messier than before
20150116 06:52:17< vultraz> indeed
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20150116 06:53:26< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, http://pastebin.com/etqK77wM
20150116 06:53:49< vultraz> and how is that any better than WML
20150116 06:54:01< Necrosporus> it's not better but not worse I guess
20150116 06:54:13< vultraz> sure, it's simpler
20150116 06:54:14< Necrosporus> But it's also tclish
20150116 06:54:16< ancestral> vultraz: We’ll adopt FFL :-P
20150116 06:54:23< Necrosporus> FRP?
20150116 06:54:28< vultraz> ancestral: you port wesnoth to anura, when we'll talk :P
20150116 06:54:42< Necrosporus> What's FFL and anura?
20150116 06:54:45< ancestral> Haha
20150116 06:54:58< vultraz> FFL is the scripting language used in the Anura game engine
20150116 06:55:06< ancestral> (for Frogatto)
20150116 06:55:08< celticminstrel> Yeah Necrosporus, that's no better than WML, and if you used Lua for the data it would be a lot like that too.
20150116 06:55:09< vultraz> also developed by sirp and co over in #frogatto
20150116 06:55:34< ancestral> I’d link you to their site but their server is down…
20150116 06:55:37< Necrosporus> How does it look like?
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20150116 06:55:57< ancestral> http://www.frogatto.com/?tag=steam
20150116 06:56:00< ancestral> Bah
20150116 06:56:01< celticminstrel> Is that at me or vultraz?
20150116 06:56:09< ancestral> This: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=181850301
20150116 06:56:23< ancestral> For Necrosporus
20150116 06:57:29< celticminstrel> That's who I was asking.
20150116 06:58:36< Necrosporus> vultraz, so why exactly is tcl bad for data?
20150116 06:59:27< celticminstrel> It's not that it's bad. It's just not better than WML.
20150116 06:59:43< ancestral> vultraz: Let’s just convert everything into JS/JSON :-P http://mproud.com/wesnoth/canvas/scripts/terrainCodeTable.js
20150116 06:59:55< Necrosporus> So it's not worse than wml for data but better for code
20150116 06:59:58< celticminstrel> JSON again is no better than WML.
20150116 07:00:00< Necrosporus> so it's better
20150116 07:00:05< celticminstrel> No.
20150116 07:00:15< celticminstrel> There's no reason why code and data have to use the same language.
20150116 07:00:18< ancestral> For config, WML is fine
20150116 07:00:21< ancestral> Right
20150116 07:00:28< vultraz> ancestral: MY EYES
20150116 07:00:32< ancestral> Haha
20150116 07:00:51< celticminstrel> JS actually looks nicer than JSON for data.
20150116 07:01:02< celticminstrel> Because you don't need to quote the keys.
20150116 07:01:06< ancestral> I hate quotes in JSON
20150116 07:01:10< ancestral> Yeah
20150116 07:01:22< ancestral> If I was making config files, I would just make things tsv
20150116 07:01:28< celticminstrel> I dunno what that is either.
20150116 07:01:45< ancestral> tab separated values
20150116 07:01:53< celticminstrel> Oh, that'd be horrible. :P
20150116 07:02:16< vultraz> as I said, what I do is use wml for config and scripting, and some minor logic. but complicated logic is lua-ized
20150116 07:02:17< ancestral> https://github.com/ancestral/tabby
20150116 07:02:25< vultraz> I don't mind if the WML gets a bit complex
20150116 07:02:30< celticminstrel> WML is actually a lot like XML, but with a shortcut for the concept of an element with no attributes.
20150116 07:02:32< vultraz> But I do mind if it gets UGLY
20150116 07:02:33< vultraz> :P
20150116 07:02:37< ancestral> (Still, you’d need the right kind of editor for this)
20150116 07:02:49< vultraz> celticminstrel: thank god WML uses [] and not <>
20150116 07:02:54< ancestral> (Or use Excel and the like)
20150116 07:03:28< celticminstrel> What's wrong with <>?
20150116 07:04:23< ancestral> xml gets to be so verbose
20150116 07:04:35< vultraz> <event> <filter> <filter_adjacent>
20150116 07:04:35< ancestral> starting and closing tags suck
20150116 07:04:37< vultraz> the ugliness D:
20150116 07:04:57< ancestral> For config data, XML is too much
20150116 07:05:15< ancestral> At least WML has key-value pairs
20150116 07:05:42< ancestral> celticminstrel: For me, not having to hold down shift!
20150116 07:05:48< celticminstrel> Ah, that's fair.
20150116 07:05:57< vultraz> good one
20150116 07:05:57< ancestral> It’s stupid, sorta, but completely valid
20150116 07:06:05< celticminstrel> Yeah.
20150116 07:06:37< ancestral> I took a course on lexers and compilers
20150116 07:06:43< ancestral> It was actually kinda fun
20150116 07:08:00< Necrosporus>  <celticminstrel> There's no reason why code and data have to use the same language. // is there a reason why they should not use same language?
20150116 07:09:11< ancestral> Typically, you want data to be easy to parse, so it can be used by multiple languages
20150116 07:09:23< ancestral> *config data
20150116 07:10:24< Necrosporus> What if data was stored in a database?
20150116 07:10:35< celticminstrel> That would make it difficult to edit.
20150116 07:11:03< ancestral> There are advantages and disadvantages with each kind of approach
20150116 07:11:16< ancestral> Databases have a distinct advantage of being fast and easy to query
20150116 07:11:37< ancestral> (typically)
20150116 07:11:48< celticminstrel> Database aren't as useful for array data though.
20150116 07:12:07< ancestral> 2D array data works great in a database
20150116 07:12:41< celticminstrel> Not really?
20150116 07:12:51< ancestral> Why not?
20150116 07:13:12< ancestral> You basically have a table, rows starting at 0, and columns that you define
20150116 07:13:23< ancestral> At least, in SQL, that’s how it works
20150116 07:13:40< celticminstrel> The rows are not ordered. Or rather, the ordering is arbitrary.
20150116 07:13:56< ancestral> You can sort the rows any way you want
20150116 07:14:11< Necrosporus> true but you could add a numeric index if you want to
20150116 07:14:22< ancestral> I should have been more specific
20150116 07:14:29< celticminstrel> If you had a column containing the row's index, then sure.
20150116 07:14:32< ancestral> The rows, by default, are usually indexed numerically
20150116 07:14:46< ancestral> Yes
20150116 07:15:25< ancestral> Databases were the one class I would have loved to have taken in college, but it didn’t work out right
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20150116 07:15:53< ancestral> Last summer I basically learned MySQL on my own for my job
20150116 07:16:34< Necrosporus> What if units were stored in database?
20150116 07:16:35-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Client Quit]
20150116 07:16:42< ancestral> They could be
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20150116 07:17:12< Necrosporus> By the way, what would you call code and what you call data?
20150116 07:17:30< Necrosporus> I guess terrains and unit types would be data
20150116 07:17:37< Necrosporus> while scenarios would be code
20150116 07:17:39< celticminstrel> Code is what the wiki classifies as ActionWML.
20150116 07:17:53< Necrosporus> What about scenarios and events?
20150116 07:17:59< ancestral> The way to do it would be load the config files into the database
20150116 07:18:05< celticminstrel> The [event] tag is both code and data.
20150116 07:18:15< celticminstrel> The [scenario] tag is data.
20150116 07:18:17< ancestral> Then it would check if the config files changed, and the database would update automatically
20150116 07:18:25< ancestral> In other words, the database becomes sort of like cache
20150116 07:18:29< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, why is scenario tag data?
20150116 07:18:42< celticminstrel> Because it's defining the parameters of your scenario.
20150116 07:18:58< vultraz> why are we arguing over this?
20150116 07:19:00< celticminstrel> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/ActionsWML
20150116 07:19:07< celticminstrel> Are we arguing?
20150116 07:19:37< Necrosporus> The problem is units could have abilities associated with code
20150116 07:19:41< vultraz> politely, yes
20150116 07:20:01< celticminstrel> What, Necrosporus?
20150116 07:20:02< ancestral> …I’m finding this stimulating!
20150116 07:20:20< Necrosporus> celticminstrel, units could have events in their descriptions
20150116 07:20:30< celticminstrel> Yes, but in that context, [event] is data.
20150116 07:20:42< vultraz> it comes down to SIMPLICITY
20150116 07:20:43< ancestral> Hmm
20150116 07:20:48< celticminstrel> Of course, its contents are code.
20150116 07:20:50< vultraz> WML is SIMPLE enough for some things
20150116 07:21:09< vultraz> [event] <- ok, I want an event to happen when these conditions are met 
20150116 07:21:13< ancestral> I always found writing if/then statements in WML awkward
20150116 07:21:19< Necrosporus> wml is simple enough for simple things
20150116 07:21:23< celticminstrel> It's very awkward.
20150116 07:21:26< vultraz> well, yes
20150116 07:21:32< vultraz> the if statements are blegh
20150116 07:21:37< ancestral> Hehe
20150116 07:21:42< vultraz> which is why I try to use [filter_condition] whenever possible
20150116 07:21:45< celticminstrel> All the control flow structures are.
20150116 07:22:28< Necrosporus> Code might be interpreted as a specific datatype
20150116 07:22:41< vultraz> coding logic in WML is messy
20150116 07:23:07< vultraz> if done in moderation with the proper interface via lua (ie, custom tags) it's ok
20150116 07:23:25< vultraz> but I don't think we can define WML and Lua as two absolutely seperate things 
20150116 07:23:30< ancestral> Could be worse. We could have had a lead developer who fell in love with Reverse Polish Notation and had a stack-driven, Forth-inspired game engine :-P
20150116 07:23:44< Necrosporus> I do not see how is it worse
20150116 07:23:55< vultraz> as in, 'oh, WML should be used EXCLUSIVELY for config and script'
20150116 07:23:56< Necrosporus> RPN is not a bad thing
20150116 07:23:57< ancestral> 4 6 > x store
20150116 07:24:14< ancestral> (Or something like that)
20150116 07:24:37< ancestral> It’s kinda Lispy, actually
20150116 07:24:50< Necrosporus> melee 4 6 sword attack
20150116 07:25:19< ancestral> See, the idea is you take the tokens left to right and add them to the stack
20150116 07:25:25< ancestral> 4 goes on first
20150116 07:25:29< ancestral> Then 6
20150116 07:25:45< Necrosporus> melee actually goes even before that
20150116 07:25:46< ancestral> So it’s top to bottom, [ 6, 4 ]
20150116 07:25:54< ancestral> Correct
20150116 07:25:59< Necrosporus> I know what RPN is
20150116 07:26:08< ancestral> Very well
20150116 07:26:12< vultraz> I do not
20150116 07:26:13< Necrosporus> I used to write in stack based languages
20150116 07:26:17< vultraz> but it sounds bad :P
20150116 07:26:24< celticminstrel> It's bad.
20150116 07:26:40< celticminstrel> For Wesnoth data, at least.
20150116 07:26:52< ancestral> vultraz: http://robowar.sourceforge.net/RoboWar5/index.html
20150116 07:27:08< ancestral> A programmable robot arena game
20150116 07:27:54< ancestral> And yes, it has a language called “RoboTalk”
20150116 07:28:17< vultraz> ...
20150116 07:28:19< vultraz> wat
20150116 07:29:21< vultraz> (quick deviation to highlight how awsome wesnoth lua is http://pastebin.com/RD8qyS7N )
20150116 07:29:47< vultraz> (top we have the WML, bottom we have the code that deals with it. imagine writing that code in WML :P )
20150116 07:31:10< vultraz> (I can't think of any better format for the top)
20150116 07:34:05< ancestral> Finally found it: http://robhogg.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/robowar.pdf
20150116 07:35:37< ancestral> Oh sweet, someone made a JS version: https://statico.github.io/jsrobowar/
20150116 07:36:35< ancestral> vultraz: Looks like MVC but in one file
20150116 07:37:11< ancestral> Probably you should have these in spearate files, sir
20150116 07:37:19< ancestral> *separate
20150116 07:37:31< ancestral> Oh wait, maybe you do?
20150116 07:40:16< ancestral> (Yuck, pastebin.com… I like simpler, secure and ad-free, like https://paste.ee/about)
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20150116 07:59:09< vultraz> ancestral: I do :p it's a code sample, not my implementation
20150116 07:59:18< celticminstrel> vultraz, you misspelled "useable". :P
20150116 07:59:24< celticminstrel> Or someone did at least.
20150116 07:59:40< celticminstrel> ...twice, in different ways. o.O
20150116 08:00:13< vultraz> I did?
20150116 08:00:20< celticminstrel> In the code sample.
20150116 08:00:35< vultraz> oh, in the comments
20150116 08:00:41< celticminstrel> Yeah.
20150116 08:01:18< ancestral> It’s a variant
20150116 08:01:34< celticminstrel> paste.ee looks better than pastie.org, at least, which I think is the other main pastebin that I see people use/
20150116 08:01:50< celticminstrel> I don't use it because it doesn't support expiration, if I recall correctly.
20150116 08:02:13< ancestral> pastee can
20150116 08:02:21< celticminstrel> I know, I just checked it.
20150116 08:02:25< ancestral> er, pasteee
20150116 08:02:27< celticminstrel> ancestral: Okay, that works for one of them, but "usuable" is not correct spelling.
20150116 08:02:44< ancestral> Oh, hah, usuable
20150116 08:02:51< ancestral> It’s like usual + able
20150116 08:02:59< ancestral> Usually able
20150116 08:03:01< ancestral> :-P
20150116 08:03:15< vultraz> celticminstrel: fixed in http://git.io/0a3ldA
20150116 08:03:43< ancestral> celticminstrel: I’ve actually seen a slew of misspelled comments in Wesnoth code
20150116 08:04:07< celticminstrel> Oh hey, you also fixed another spelling error that I didn't notice.
20150116 08:04:13< ancestral> Just never bothered raising a stink because it was inferrable
20150116 08:04:34< ancestral> vultraz: Next we will critique your comments’ grammar
20150116 08:04:38< ancestral> :-P
20150116 08:04:48< ancestral> Oh wow, and that’s in a tag
20150116 08:05:01< ancestral> vultraz: It’s still called WML tags, not WML elements, correct?
20150116 08:05:26< ancestral> Maybe that’s another reason not to call # ‘hashtag’
20150116 08:05:41< ancestral> #[blah] would be a hashtag :-P
20150116 08:05:47< celticminstrel> I would assume that "tag" refers to the stuff within the [], while "element" refers to the whole [xxx]...[/xxx] construct.
20150116 08:06:04< celticminstrel> And "[xxx]" and "[/xxx]" are both tags.
20150116 08:06:25< celticminstrel> You could maybe also call the bit before = a tag, though I think I'd generally call it a key instead.
20150116 08:06:35< ancestral> So…
20150116 08:06:37< ancestral> [hash]
20150116 08:06:40< ancestral> [#]
20150116 08:07:29< Molt> hey ya'll
20150116 08:07:38< Molt> wow.. still up :)
20150116 08:07:56< celticminstrel> I should have been in bed at least three hours ago.
20150116 08:08:05< Molt> lol. me too
20150116 08:08:07< Molt> been coding
20150116 08:08:17< celticminstrel> Me too.
20150116 08:08:20< ancestral> Uh oh, I see “Therefor” :-P
20150116 08:08:39< Molt> haha
20150116 08:08:47< Molt> i'm going to ask a question?
20150116 08:09:01< celticminstrel> I dunno, are you?
20150116 08:09:10< ancestral> vultraz: #iactuallydontreallycaretoomuch #itsjustacomment https://github.com/Vultraz/Shadows_of_Deception/blob/master/episode1/scenarios/00_Descry.cfg#L79
20150116 08:09:36< ancestral> celticminstrel: I think he did
20150116 08:09:50< celticminstrel> Ah, true.
20150116 08:10:03< Molt> yeah, but not really about coding. wondering how images are made for the game? i want to make a poinsoned looking water and poisoned looking land
20150116 08:10:03< ancestral> Molt: What’s up, Molt?
20150116 08:10:29< vultraz> ancestral: what should it be?
20150116 08:10:35< celticminstrel> therefore
20150116 08:10:39< ancestral> ^
20150116 08:10:57< vultraz> oh
20150116 08:10:59< vultraz> right
20150116 08:11:09< vultraz> agh why did you point that out
20150116 08:11:28< ancestral> You should just forget I even mentioned it
20150116 08:11:31< ancestral> It’s just a comment
20150116 08:12:05< ancestral> (And then after you go to sleep I’ll add an issue to your GitHub issue tracker)
20150116 08:12:17< vultraz> it's 7 PM :P
20150116 08:12:20< ancestral> (I’m kidding!)
20150116 08:12:37< celticminstrel> I've considered putting my campaign on github.
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20150116 08:12:48< vultraz> you should
20150116 08:12:56< celticminstrel> Why?
20150116 08:13:16< ancestral> Just doing version control in general is awesomesauce
20150116 08:13:17< vultraz> vcs
20150116 08:13:25< ancestral> Even if you don’t post it to GitHub
20150116 08:13:28< celticminstrel> I don't need to put it on github to have vcs.
20150116 08:13:32< ancestral> Like, just do it locally
20150116 08:13:33< celticminstrel> I'm already using that.
20150116 08:13:37< ancestral> Ah
20150116 08:13:38< vultraz> but github is awesome
20150116 08:13:39< celticminstrel> Like ancestral said.
20150116 08:13:55< celticminstrel> Yes it is. That's not an argument for putting my campaign on it, though. :P
20150116 08:14:08< ancestral> If you work between computers and don’t have web hosting, GH is nice in that regard
20150116 08:14:12< ancestral> Also, web editing
20150116 08:14:23< ancestral> (Though I suppose GitLab could do the same thing, and GitLab is free)
20150116 08:14:37< ancestral> But that takes work
20150116 08:14:53< ancestral> (And web hosting)
20150116 08:14:54< celticminstrel> I don't work between computers. Not on Wesnoth stuff, at least.
20150116 08:15:06< ancestral> Do you back up your computer?
20150116 08:15:23< vultraz> I do it for collorbative reasons
20150116 08:15:26< celticminstrel> I think Time Machine runs once a day or something.
20150116 08:15:45< ancestral> Hello fellow Mac user :)
20150116 08:15:51< celticminstrel> Hi. :P
20150116 08:15:53< celticminstrel> I'm not really collaborating with anyone on this campaign.
20150116 08:15:58< ancestral> You own a Time Capsule, or have a hard drive plugged in?
20150116 08:16:01< shadowm> >collorbative
20150116 08:16:08< celticminstrel> Neither, ancestral 
20150116 08:16:20< vultraz> collaborative
20150116 08:16:29< ancestral> Then it’s not backing up, except caching backups for when you connect a drive
20150116 08:16:41< celticminstrel> I doubt that?
20150116 08:16:48< celticminstrel> I have multiple hard drives.
20150116 08:16:57< ancestral> You have an internal RAID setup?
20150116 08:17:13< celticminstrel> Uh. No? Probably.
20150116 08:17:30< ancestral> Okay so you have multiple internal hard drives?
20150116 08:17:34< celticminstrel> Yes.
20150116 08:17:56< ancestral> Did you replace the optical drive with a hard drive, or do you have Mac Pro?
20150116 08:18:04< celticminstrel> The latter.
20150116 08:18:05< ancestral> Or a Mac mini with a second drive?
20150116 08:18:07< ancestral> Okay
20150116 08:18:49< ancestral> So a populat RAID setup allows you to basically mirror a drive
20150116 08:18:52< ancestral> *popular
20150116 08:19:02< ancestral> So if your drive fails, you’ll have it backed up
20150116 08:19:13< celticminstrel> I'm not doing that. I just have Time Machine.
20150116 08:19:56< ancestral> You’re using a secondary internal hard drive to backup the primary with Time Machine?
20150116 08:20:03< celticminstrel> That sounds accurate.
20150116 08:20:13< ancestral> You might as well just do RAID instead!
20150116 08:20:26< celticminstrel> Meh.
20150116 08:20:32< ancestral> Well, hear me out
20150116 08:21:00< ancestral> With an external drive, you can’t do RAID with an internal. I mean, the external is going to get unplugged eventually
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20150116 08:21:09< ancestral> So Time Machine is good in that regard
20150116 08:21:34< ancestral> With internal drives, they’re never going to get unplugged
20150116 08:21:53< ancestral> With a mirrored RAID, your backups would be intantaneous
20150116 08:22:02 * ancestral can’t spell tonight
20150116 08:22:59< ancestral> In other words, if you save a file, it’s getting saved to two drives at exactly the same time
20150116 08:24:32< ancestral> If there’s nothing extra on the backup drive, I’d turn it on: http://support.apple.com/kb/PH5834
20150116 08:25:38< ancestral> (In any case, good for you for at least having a backup)
20150116 08:25:59 * vultraz uses File History (windows 8) and an external drive
20150116 08:26:16< ancestral> I haven’t backed up in 56 days… whoops…
20150116 08:27:17< celticminstrel> There's actually extra stuff on the backup drive that's not being backed up.
20150116 08:27:26< celticminstrel> Also, the backup drive is much larger.
20150116 08:27:30< celticminstrel> I think.
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20150116 08:28:27< celticminstrel> I'm also not backing up the entire drive.
20150116 08:29:35< celticminstrel> Yeah, the backup drive is something like five times as large as the startup drive.
20150116 08:30:40< ancestral> That’s okay
20150116 08:31:10< ancestral> But sure
20150116 08:31:39< ancestral> (Likely possible to partition the drive creating a like-sized one for the mirror to the startup disk)
20150116 08:31:45< celticminstrel> There's also a third drive that I rarely use which is half the size of the startup drive. (I think that's the original one that came in the computer.)
20150116 08:31:54< celticminstrel> It still has Snow Leopard on it.
20150116 08:32:20< ancestral> The one large advantage Time Machine has is it can easily backup multiple hard drives
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20150116 16:22:16< patwotrik> I got an idea for an ability or weapon special, unless it does already exist. How about an attack that does not cause all remanding movement to drop to zero?
20150116 16:24:05< celticminstrel> I'm pretty sure it has been done.
20150116 16:24:29< patwotrik> Probably. That's always the case when you get a good idea :)
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20150116 16:38:23< zookeeper> yeah i'm sure that's been done somewhere... i've had the idea for a long time but never had anywhere to put it to use
20150116 16:38:50< zookeeper> of course you'd still lose movement points when moving next to an enemy, unless you also have skirmisher
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20150116 20:03:32< gavenkoa> Hi! I report but to replace Python wmlxgetext with Perl one and asked if athoer tools seems inappropriate or obsolite at https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?archive=yes&bug=775153
20150116 20:04:09< gavenkoa> I can't see other. If there are chance that someone use Debian/Ubuntu wesnoth-1.12-tools (or different version) and know that to say - replay to 775153@bugs.debian.org or write here I try check and send myself
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20150116 20:38:19< gavenkoa> I find GUI.pyw missing and report for Debian BTS.
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 17 00:00:05 2015