--- Log opened Thu Jan 29 00:00:42 2015
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20150129 04:25:23< C25> playing 3v3, 2 players and a bot on one side, vs 3 bots
20150129 04:25:33< C25> almost every single game desyncs at start
20150129 04:25:51< C25> need to reload game to switch player positions
20150129 04:25:56< C25> then it works out
20150129 04:27:41< C25> players on spawned in wrong locations
20150129 04:28:05-!- C25 is now known as Catoptromancy
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20150129 06:48:09< zookeeper> Catoptromancy, which era and map was that on?
20150129 06:48:18< Catoptromancy> normal era
20150129 06:48:21< Catoptromancy> all maps
20150129 06:48:48< Catoptromancy> other player noticed it was only when undead were somewhere 
20150129 06:48:58< Catoptromancy> we play random maps, random enemy
20150129 06:49:49< zookeeper> right
20150129 06:50:22< Catoptromancy> only like 2 out of 10 games did not mix up spawns
20150129 06:55:50< Catoptromancy> all 10+ maps were different
20150129 06:55:52< zookeeper> i've kept hearing people say that people say they have lots of OOS on 1.12, but it seems no one can ever reproduce it. it'd be entirely possible that for example some player(s) have an add-on installed which messes with something and causes OOS.
20150129 06:56:04< Catoptromancy> i had no add ons
20150129 06:56:16< Catoptromancy> 3v3 with bots
20150129 06:56:29< Catoptromancy> ive swapped places with other player, and bots
20150129 06:56:35< Catoptromancy> and enemy
20150129 07:03:10< shadowm> Using 1.12.1 or 1.12.0?
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20150129 07:03:55< Catoptromancy> 1.12
20150129 07:05:08< shadowm> 1.12.1 or 1.12.0?
20150129 07:05:14< Catoptromancy> 1.12.0
20150129 07:09:11< zookeeper> well, there is something specific needed to trigger that, and i don't know what that might be
20150129 07:09:28< Catoptromancy> we can do testing
20150129 07:09:43< Catoptromancy> to see if its type of map or enemy
20150129 07:09:54-!- Lirion [~m00se@wikimedia-commons/Lirion] has joined #wesnoth
20150129 07:10:01< zookeeper> sure, just say when and i'll join up
20150129 07:10:25-!- GhostlyDeath [~ghostlyde@unaffiliated/ghostlydeath] has joined #wesnoth
20150129 07:10:31< Catoptromancy> heh
20150129 07:11:43< shadowm> It'd be preferable if everyone involved used 1.12.1 just in case.
20150129 07:12:04< zookeeper> i would very much like to figure out whether these OOS rumours are actually a bug in the core game or due to a broken add-on or something (which, as i said, might only require one of the players to have it installed, even if it's not supposed to be used in that match)
20150129 07:12:06< Catoptromancy> i have both, 
20150129 07:12:20< Catoptromancy> GhostlyDeath, host
20150129 07:12:55< GhostlyDeath> I do have addons installed
20150129 07:13:09< zookeeper> ah. mind listing them?
20150129 07:13:16< GhostlyDeath> After this game perhaps
20150129 07:13:20< zookeeper> sure
20150129 07:13:44< Catoptromancy> not a game, just 2 turns...
20150129 07:16:11< GhostlyDeath> zookeeper: I only have Colosseum installed
20150129 07:17:30< zookeeper> ok, that ought to be very unlikely to cause anything funny
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20150129 07:24:08< GhostlyDeath> zookeeper: Would a replay work?
20150129 07:24:22< GhostlyDeath> Catoptromancy: You should have replays where you OOS
20150129 07:24:31< Catoptromancy> they are on that website
20150129 07:24:36< Catoptromancy> sorta
20150129 07:24:45< Catoptromancy> they are bad desyncs, not completely out
20150129 07:24:54< Catoptromancy> err not forced to leave kind
20150129 07:25:02< Catoptromancy> it just replays randomness
20150129 07:25:23< Catoptromancy> lets try usual 3v3 with 4 bots
20150129 07:25:31< Catoptromancy> force an undead
20150129 07:25:59< zookeeper> it's not due to faction or recruits
20150129 07:26:13< zookeeper> if the problem is keeps switching, then that's something else
20150129 07:26:54< GhostlyDeath> We just play the randomly generated maps
20150129 07:27:00< GhostlyDeath> I use the default settings for the most part
20150129 07:27:15< Catoptromancy> caught one
20150129 07:27:24< GhostlyDeath> zookeeper: Game desynced
20150129 07:27:38< GhostlyDeath> Catoptromancy: rejoin
20150129 07:27:45< zookeeper> don't lose your save
20150129 07:28:00< GhostlyDeath> Catoptromancy: You should have stayed to label those keeps!
20150129 07:28:37< zookeeper> well i'd very much like a turn 1 save (or replay, or whatever) from everyone
20150129 07:28:37< Catoptromancy> you want the game save?
20150129 07:28:41< zookeeper> to compare the differences
20150129 07:29:02< GhostlyDeath> Catoptromancy: Check your save games
20150129 07:30:03< zookeeper> you can upload the files to http://filebin.ca/ if you have no other convenient place
20150129 07:30:04< Catoptromancy> heh ya
20150129 07:30:10< Catoptromancy> we should have labelled keeps
20150129 07:30:30< GhostlyDeath> With undead and a strong AI, it triggered the first go
20150129 07:30:56< Catoptromancy>  http://filebin.ca/1pn0oeQsFqBu/Cato_OOS_1.gz
20150129 07:31:10< GhostlyDeath> http://filebin.ca/1pn0uaE1zwwD/Catoglitch.gz
20150129 07:31:19< GhostlyDeath> Order of keeps for me
20150129 07:31:30< GhostlyDeath> BROWN WHITE TEAL
20150129 07:31:42< GhostlyDeath> ORANGE BLACK RED
20150129 07:31:49< zookeeper> thanks, i'll have a peek right now...
20150129 07:31:52< GhostlyDeath> PURPLE BLUE GREEN
20150129 07:32:18< zookeeper> same order as mine
20150129 07:32:30< GhostlyDeath> it also happens regardless of my CPU
20150129 07:32:37< zookeeper> so only Catoptromancy's client disagrees, i guess
20150129 07:32:39< GhostlyDeath> Whether I play on a PowerPC system or a amd64
20150129 07:32:55< zookeeper> yeah i'm sure that wouldn't affect it
20150129 07:33:04< Catoptromancy> $ wesnoth --version
20150129 07:33:04< Catoptromancy> Battle for Wesnoth v1.12.0
20150129 07:33:19< zookeeper> i was on 1.12.0 too
20150129 07:33:26< GhostlyDeath> I am on 1.12.0
20150129 07:33:31< GhostlyDeath> From Debian
20150129 07:33:42< Catoptromancy> mines compiled
20150129 07:33:49< GhostlyDeath> Perhaps you should start a game Catoptromancy 
20150129 07:34:02< Catoptromancy> ok
20150129 07:34:13< GhostlyDeath> Make a random map with 9 keeps, 6 CPUs, last AI strong and undead
20150129 07:34:45< GhostlyDeath> And see if we desync from your game
20150129 07:35:13< zookeeper> the faction is irrelevant for sure, but strong AI might of course be necessary... somehow
20150129 07:36:10< GhostlyDeath> Catoptromancy: In random map, there should be settings..., the top slider all the way to the right
20150129 07:36:17< Catoptromancy> did
20150129 07:37:04< Catoptromancy> move slider, click next
20150129 07:37:11< Catoptromancy> doesnt stay at 9
20150129 07:37:19< GhostlyDeath> Go to random maps
20150129 07:37:25< GhostlyDeath> The slider next to the map is a filter
20150129 07:37:34< GhostlyDeath> So only maps with X players are listed
20150129 07:37:42< GhostlyDeath> There are two buttons, generate and the other
20150129 07:37:48< GhostlyDeath> Which is what needs to be changed inside to 9
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20150129 07:39:56< GhostlyDeath> desynced
20150129 07:39:59< GhostlyDeath> For me at least
20150129 07:40:00< Catoptromancy> both of you
20150129 07:40:01< Catoptromancy> heh
20150129 07:40:29< zookeeper> righty
20150129 07:40:31< GhostlyDeath> Does that dialog save the game?
20150129 07:40:39< GhostlyDeath> It does
20150129 07:40:39< zookeeper> yes
20150129 07:40:51< GhostlyDeath> Uploading
20150129 07:40:54< zookeeper> i'll try to reproduce it on my own...
20150129 07:41:11< GhostlyDeath> http://filebin.ca/1pn3wXS3wlIp/Catohostsplat.gz
20150129 07:41:52< Catoptromancy> wonder if its my build
20150129 07:41:58< Catoptromancy> hey
20150129 07:42:04< Catoptromancy> ill sit out, you two try
20150129 07:42:14< GhostlyDeath> Well before when I compiled from source (before the Debian packages), my compiled copy was fine
20150129 07:42:35< Catoptromancy> seems to be originating with me
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20150129 07:43:28< zookeeper> Catoptromancy, join mine
20150129 07:50:37< Catoptromancy> http://filebin.ca/1pn6n3Jtm3kJ/Cato_OOS_2.gz
20150129 07:50:42< GhostlyDeath> http://filebin.ca/1pn6ovStaS6S/catothecursed.gz
20150129 07:51:01< Catoptromancy> heh
20150129 07:51:33< GhostlyDeath> I would assume all the bots are lua scripts
20150129 07:52:15< Catoptromancy> im sleep
20150129 07:52:18< GhostlyDeath> But would not the host run the AI for the computers rather than the client?
20150129 07:52:18< Catoptromancy> gg
20150129 07:52:30< zookeeper> sure, bye
20150129 07:52:31< zookeeper> thanks
20150129 07:52:36< GhostlyDeath> have fun
20150129 07:54:22< zookeeper> yeah i can't reproduce it on my own with two clients; it sure seems like there's something working differently on Catoptromancy's end
20150129 07:54:48< GhostlyDeath> We usually play with someone else also, and he has no troubles either
20150129 07:55:03< GhostlyDeath> But that was when we used all default AI
20150129 07:55:15< GhostlyDeath> I have never seen it desync with default AI unless someone used planning mode
20150129 07:55:20< zookeeper> and yes, AI's are run on the host (or whoever droids their side)
20150129 07:57:03< GhostlyDeath> Would probably need his compiler, libraries, etc.
20150129 07:57:45< Catoptromancy> ldd?
20150129 07:57:58< GhostlyDeath> gcc --version
20150129 07:58:07< GhostlyDeath> Stuff like that
20150129 07:58:14< Catoptromancy> gcc (GCC) 4.8.2
20150129 07:58:17< Catoptromancy> ldd is libs
20150129 07:58:28< GhostlyDeath> I know
20150129 07:58:59< GhostlyDeath> uname -a, your distro version
20150129 07:59:10< zookeeper> well, i'll rummage through those savefiles and see if i can find anything damning
20150129 07:59:21< Catoptromancy> 3.10.17-smp #2 SMP Wed Oct 23 17:13:14 CDT 2013 i686 Intel(R) Pentium(R) D CPU 3.00GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
20150129 08:01:04< GhostlyDeath> Catoptromancy: $ lua -version
20150129 08:01:31< Catoptromancy> Lua 5.2.2  Copyright (C) 1994-2013 Lua.org, PUC-Rio
20150129 08:01:43< Catoptromancy> its initial spawn
20150129 08:01:43< zookeeper> ha
20150129 08:01:47< Catoptromancy> before AI kicks in
20150129 08:01:48< GhostlyDeath> Lua 5.0.3  Copyright (C) 1994-2006 Tecgraf, PUC-Rio
20150129 08:01:50< zookeeper> the starting locations in the map data itself are different
20150129 08:01:59< zookeeper> but how the hell does that happen... O.o
20150129 08:02:09< GhostlyDeath> They are purely random generated maps
20150129 08:02:13< zookeeper> i know
20150129 08:02:30< zookeeper> the map is the same, except that in the savefiles the starting positions are ordered differently
20150129 08:02:39< GhostlyDeath> When a player joins a random map, do they get the save or do they generate the map?
20150129 08:02:48< zookeeper> i thought the former
20150129 08:02:57< Catoptromancy>  ls ~/.local/share/wesnoth/
20150129 08:02:57< Catoptromancy> 1.10  1.11  1.12
20150129 08:03:03< Catoptromancy> possible old maps?
20150129 08:03:06< zookeeper> i'll have to get a second opinion :p
20150129 08:03:10< GhostlyDeath> No, separate dirs
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20150129 08:03:37< GhostlyDeath> 1.10  1.12
20150129 08:03:57< GhostlyDeath> I even have wesnoth-1.10 installed on my system as the same time as 1.12
20150129 08:04:02< GhostlyDeath> at*
20150129 08:04:26< Catoptromancy> zoo's servers do same thing for me
20150129 08:04:32< Catoptromancy> so its not that
20150129 08:05:11< GhostlyDeath> And other times, the start locations would be in the right spot
20150129 08:05:19< GhostlyDeath> But it would desync once the AI starts running
20150129 08:05:37< Catoptromancy> nope, once it interacts with something affecting game
20150129 08:05:46< Catoptromancy> like grabbing a village
20150129 08:06:14< GhostlyDeath> On my side, while the AI was recruiting it would desync
20150129 08:06:19< Catoptromancy> if it just sat there, recruited without taking villages, probably wouldnt
20150129 08:06:24< Catoptromancy> hm
20150129 08:06:38< Catoptromancy> maybe i was lagging
20150129 08:06:52< GhostlyDeath> Based on prior experience, the AI runs based on the host's speed
20150129 08:06:56< zookeeper> it'll probably take some time for me to find someone who knows about how it's supposed to work and how something like that might happen
20150129 08:07:14< Catoptromancy> i use accelerate 3 
20150129 08:07:17< GhostlyDeath> So if you join a game where the host uses super slow attack speed, the AI takes forever during their turns
20150129 08:07:54< GhostlyDeath> Catoptromancy: Could upload your wesnoth binaries
20150129 08:08:52< zookeeper> i'd think we have plenty of data already for now, so feel free to catch your sleep first :p
20150129 08:09:17< GhostlyDeath> Catoptromancy: When you wake up, record everything you do
20150129 08:09:26< GhostlyDeath> Your breakfast or lack of one could be causing wesnoth desyncs
20150129 08:09:32< zookeeper> that's true
20150129 08:09:51< zookeeper> stranger things have happened, such as when all my mages missed all their attacks...
20150129 08:10:16< GhostlyDeath> zookeeper: Would you want to try planning mode?
20150129 08:10:27< GhostlyDeath> Whenever I have used it with someone, insta desync
20150129 08:10:48< Catoptromancy> http://filebin.ca/1pnCt9H7mkeZ/wesnoth.bz2
20150129 08:10:51< GhostlyDeath> Unless planning mode in multiplayer is experimental
20150129 08:11:17< zookeeper> GhostlyDeath, i dunno, i've never really tried it myself and i've heard enough talk about it being buggy...
20150129 08:12:15< GhostlyDeath> Too bad nobody plays colloseum anymore
20150129 08:12:15< zookeeper> so someone who knows about and is interested in it would probably be a better candidate :p
20150129 08:14:43 * Catoptromancy reverse ambush!
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20150129 08:14:52< zookeeper> in any case, considering how the problem is not only leader positions getting changed, but the original map data being different on the clients, i can't see how the strong AI could have anything to do with it
20150129 08:15:22< zookeeper> ...not that i can see how/why anything else would cause it either, but the AI seems even more far-fetched :p
20150129 08:16:37< GhostlyDeath> Whenever we played with pure default, never happened, only when we wanted more of a challenge
20150129 08:17:39< zookeeper> yeah it is a bit weird, so maybe it somehow causes it after all
20150129 08:18:07< zookeeper> anyway, as i said i just have to pass all this along to someone who knows that part of the code, we'll see if they figure something out
20150129 08:18:48< GhostlyDeath> Well when cato plays, it is usually from a straight startup
20150129 08:18:50< GhostlyDeath> as with myself
20150129 08:22:30< GhostlyDeath> Are 1.12.0 and 1.12.1 separate lobbies?
20150129 08:27:04< zookeeper> nope, the same
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20150129 09:29:33< zookeeper> GhostlyDeath, eh, do you recall whether the switching ever only affected AI sides? or were human side locations sometimes switched too?
20150129 09:30:46< zookeeper> ah, nevermind, in the latest save a human side was switched
20150129 09:31:13< zookeeper> i do wonder whether it's always a human side switched with an AI side though, or whether two human sides were ever switched with each other?
20150129 09:38:59< GhostlyDeath> On his view, sometimes he thought he was on my keep
20150129 09:39:03< GhostlyDeath> or AIs would get switched too
20150129 09:44:19< GhostlyDeath> zookeeper: Does the AI and random maps share a PRNG at all?
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20150129 09:50:49< zookeeper> GhostlyDeath, i have no idea
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--- Log closed Fri Jan 30 00:00:43 2015