--- Log opened Mon Mar 23 00:00:23 2015
20150323 00:35:30-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@s41.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20150323 01:28:30-!- irker762 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout]
20150323 02:03:42-!- tomreyn [~tomreyn@megaglest/team/tomreyn] has quit [Quit: tomreyn]
20150323 02:06:12-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@f054050037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 36.0.1/20150305021524]]
20150323 02:41:34-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20150323 02:49:23-!- ancestral [~ancestral@65-128-208-249.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 03:15:09-!- iceiceice [~chris@wesnoth/developer/iceiceice] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 03:19:20-!- iceiceice [~chris@wesnoth/developer/iceiceice] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150323 03:19:49-!- iceiceice [~chris@wesnoth/developer/iceiceice] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 03:28:40-!- iceiceice [~chris@wesnoth/developer/iceiceice] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20150323 03:45:11-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@f048224231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 03:45:12-!- new_one [~new_one@128.42.64.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 03:56:54-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20150323 04:00:40-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@s41.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 04:13:42-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-108-82-79.adr01.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20150323 04:18:53-!- Necrosporus_ is now known as Necrosporus
20150323 04:21:57-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-108-82-79.adr01.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 04:34:56-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B0089B0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 04:59:28-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@s41.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150323 05:29:30-!- kex [~kex@78.157.29.160] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 05:32:53-!- ancestral [~ancestral@65-128-208-249.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150323 05:39:43-!- Coffee_irc [~david@ppp121-45-36-236.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 05:44:32-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150323 05:55:19-!- ancestral [~ancestral@65-128-208-249.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 06:08:06-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B0089B0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150323 06:15:29-!- [Relic] [~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:9e5:8a68:d8c8:190d] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20150323 07:16:56-!- Crendgrim_ [~crend@wesnoth/forum-moderator/crendgrim] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 07:17:58-!- Crendgrim [~crend@wesnoth/forum-moderator/crendgrim] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20150323 07:19:53-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@123.155.153.51] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 07:22:25-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@123.155.153.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 07:36:49-!- ancestral [~ancestral@65-128-208-249.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150323 07:38:46-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20150323 07:50:26-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 07:52:08-!- boucman_2 is now known as boucman_work
20150323 07:52:20-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 07:52:22-!- boucman_work [~jrosen@bob75-2-81-56-46-209.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host]
20150323 07:52:22-!- boucman_work [~jrosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 08:12:31-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@s41.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 08:14:28-!- SpoOkyMagician [~chatzilla@cpe-74-132-57-45.swo.res.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 08:15:44-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20150323 08:35:48-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@123.155.155.188] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 08:37:36-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@123.155.155.188] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 08:42:07-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@s41.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20150323 08:45:24-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@s41.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 08:59:23-!- SpoOkyMagician [~chatzilla@cpe-74-132-57-45.swo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: .zZ]
20150323 09:43:03-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@123.155.153.50] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 09:55:11-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@123.155.153.50] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 10:17:14-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20150323 10:29:09-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 10:49:15-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.186] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 10:50:57-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.186] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 11:23:13-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@s41.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20150323 11:25:17-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@s41.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 11:49:23-!- boucman_work [~jrosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 11:54:20-!- Necrosporus_ [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 11:56:59-!- Necrosporus [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150323 12:03:43-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 12:29:29-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@211.162.34.193] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 12:29:32-!- kex [~kex@78.157.29.160] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 12:32:56-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@211.162.34.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 12:35:12-!- ancestral [~ancestral@65-128-208-249.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 12:48:16-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@211.162.34.193] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 12:57:06-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@211.162.34.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 13:07:54-!- markus_ [~mjs-de@f048040039.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 13:11:49-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@f048224231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20150323 13:21:47-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.186] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 13:21:47-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150323 13:31:52-!- markus_ [~mjs-de@f048040039.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 13:48:48-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@123.155.155.177] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 13:51:41-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@123.155.155.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 13:56:04-!- ancestral [~ancestral@65-128-208-249.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ancestral]
20150323 13:57:36-!- ancestral [~ancestral@65-128-208-249.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 14:00:30-!- Necrosporus_ is now known as Necrosporus
20150323 14:08:14-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.186] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 14:10:43-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.186] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 14:11:25-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@27.115.116.219] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 14:23:07-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 14:25:04-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Client Quit]
20150323 14:27:34-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@27.115.116.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 14:28:00-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@27.115.116.219] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 14:31:19-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@27.115.116.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 14:31:43-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@27.115.116.219] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 14:32:31-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@27.115.116.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 14:40:38-!- Crendgrim_ is now known as Crendgrim
20150323 14:50:35-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 14:56:41-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20150323 14:57:38-!- prkc [~prkc@catv-89-134-173-244.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 15:09:14-!- [Relic] [~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:257e:7ab6:19b6:e162] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 15:17:36-!- ancestral [~ancestral@65-128-208-249.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150323 15:22:02-!- kex [~kex@78.157.29.160] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 15:26:55-!- ancestral [~ancestral@9.sub-70-197-227.myvzw.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 15:36:15-!- Coffee_irc [~david@ppp121-45-36-236.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20150323 15:44:47-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 15:47:33-!- ancestral [~ancestral@9.sub-70-197-227.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150323 15:49:55-!- shadowm [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 15:52:43-!- shadowm [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 16:07:32-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@vpn49214.itmc.tu-dortmund.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 17:28:45-!- ancestral [~ancestral@63.92.240.233] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 17:33:10-!- ancestral [~ancestral@63.92.240.233] has quit [Client Quit]
20150323 18:01:16-!- yann [~dwitch@nan92-1-81-57-214-146.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 18:10:22-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B0089B0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 18:13:31-!- EdB [~edb@89-158-11-138.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 18:24:02-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150323 18:34:40-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 18:35:50-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@f054056103.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 18:37:02-!- Kwandulin_2 [~Miranda@p5B0089B0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 18:37:07< gfgtdf> accoring to tis page: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba the plannign mode was also meant as a replacement for DSU, so i wonder why we still have DSU ?
20150323 18:38:35-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B0089B0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20150323 18:41:44-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20150323 18:44:00< zookeeper> gfgtdf, because a lot of people prefer DSU
20150323 18:44:10< gfgtdf> zookeeper: why ?
20150323 18:44:22 * zookeeper shrugs
20150323 18:44:40< zookeeper> i've personally never bothered to learn the whiteboard, DSU does everything i need
20150323 18:45:28< gfgtdf> hm ok
20150323 18:45:44< zookeeper> ...everything except allow easy planning of moves in co-op multiplayer
20150323 18:45:55< zookeeper> which i presume whiteboard still doesn't do, although i could be wrong
20150323 18:47:26-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@vpn49214.itmc.tu-dortmund.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 18:50:32< zookeeper> it's intrinsically harder to understand and grasp. of course DSU isn't exactly intuitive for a new player either, but it's still much simpler, i think
20150323 18:51:13-!- iceiceice [~chris@wesnoth/developer/iceiceice] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 18:51:29< iceiceice> fwiw i think whiteboard is better than DSU,
20150323 18:51:33< iceiceice> because DSU has some unusual engine properties
20150323 18:51:41< iceiceice> its not really an "interface" property
20150323 18:51:53< iceiceice> DSU enable and disable have to be stored in replays
20150323 18:52:24< iceiceice> its not like you can replay the game as thoguh DSU wasn't there and the player just never enabled it and made the same moves,
20150323 18:52:33< iceiceice> because if you do that, then "sighted" events play wrong
20150323 18:52:46< iceiceice> so imo DSU in current implementation DSU adds a huge amount of complexity
20150323 18:52:53< iceiceice> and is pretty counterintuitive when you get down to it
20150323 18:53:07< zookeeper> sure, DSU is a horrible hack in a technical sense :P
20150323 18:53:36< zookeeper> but from a player PoV, i don't really see any need for me to use a planning mode in single-player. if i need to check ZoC things, i can just as easily toggle DSU on and move units around and undo when necessary.
20150323 18:53:36< iceiceice> i think these aspects also make it hard for people to make custom scenarios that will work the way they expect
20150323 18:54:14< iceiceice> for instance there's a scenario Bob made with an RPG where you have to attack a dragon,
20150323 18:54:27< iceiceice> which is set up so that if you gain sight of it at a certain range it will jump out and attack you
20150323 18:54:34< iceiceice> and you aren't suppose dto be able to enter the cave without seeing it
20150323 18:54:40< iceiceice> but if you turn on DSU it basicalyl breaks his scenario
20150323 18:54:44< iceiceice> because you can sneak into the cave
20150323 18:54:50< iceiceice> without the dragon reacting
20150323 18:55:58< zookeeper> on the other hand, you can solve those kind of situations WML-side now with fancier moveto/enter_hex/etc filters
20150323 18:56:14< iceiceice> yeah but its fairly technical
20150323 18:56:17< zookeeper> sure
20150323 18:56:19< iceiceice> that this problem exists at all
20150323 18:56:39< iceiceice> i think it would be best if somehow the DSU could have the same interface since some people liek it,
20150323 18:56:40< zookeeper> just saying that it's not actually the intractable problem it used to be in the past
20150323 18:56:47< iceiceice> but under the hood it works liek whiteboard or something
20150323 18:57:09< iceiceice> but otoh idk if a major change liek that is a good idea at this point
20150323 18:57:22< iceiceice> since it might confuse many people who understood how it worked before
20150323 18:57:58< zookeeper> i don't think there's any solutions without clear downsides, really
20150323 18:58:20< iceiceice> if the whiteboard basically had a "DSU mode"
20150323 18:58:28< iceiceice> where it doesn't render the arrows and the ghost units
20150323 18:58:32< iceiceice> it would basically be the same as DSU
20150323 18:58:44< iceiceice> from player point of view
20150323 18:59:00-!- SpoOkyMagician [~chatzilla@cpe-74-132-57-45.swo.res.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 19:00:24< gfgtdf> iceiceice: but then it might be confusoing that teh actual location for wmkl is different than teh location shown on teh sceen for eample if you use [set_menu_item] and teh uder sees a unit oin a different location than teh wml.
20150323 19:00:58< gfgtdf> s/uder/user, s/oin/on s/teh/the 
20150323 19:01:09< iceiceice> yeah...
20150323 19:01:25< iceiceice> i think it would be better if whiteboard could handle planned menu item executions
20150323 19:02:49< zookeeper> well i just started a MP game to check if the whiteboard works in MP, and at first i was thrilled because it showed the plans to the ally client, but when i pressed execute, i immediately got "Ignoring illegal whiteboard data" :>
20150323 19:03:05< zookeeper> maybe it's well known, i haven't really paid any attention to whiteboard bugs etc
20150323 19:04:12< Ravana_> I think in multiplayer people are told to not use whiteboard indeed
20150323 19:04:33< gfgtdf> zookeeper: you got that bug when executing your moves during your own turn ?
20150323 19:04:45< Ravana_> sometimes it seems to work though
20150323 19:04:59< zookeeper> gfgtdf, yes
20150323 19:06:45< iceiceice> i can't reproduce that
20150323 19:07:50-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 19:08:19-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 19:08:36< iceiceice> hmm im having trouble with it showing moves to ally sometimes though
20150323 19:11:07< zookeeper> i do wonder what people actually use planning mode (in singleplayer) for? checking ZoC/reach effects of moves obviously, but what else?
20150323 19:11:48< iceiceice> probably that's it
20150323 19:12:41< gfgtdf> zookeeper: also whiteboard can to multui turn moves
20150323 19:12:45< gfgtdf> do*
20150323 19:12:56< zookeeper> right
20150323 19:13:24< iceiceice> yeah its nicer for that then the "built-in" moves system
20150323 19:13:29< iceiceice> because it doesn't exectue them without your say so
20150323 19:13:40< iceiceice> the "gotos"
20150323 19:13:50< iceiceice> i dont know how to call them other than what they are called in the code
20150323 19:14:04< gfgtdf> iceiceice: also the whoiteboard multu turn move allow to say the exact middle step hexes.
20150323 19:14:05< iceiceice> but i usually dont use those anyways
20150323 19:14:08< zookeeper> yeah, i don't really ever use gotos myself, because they're so awkward
20150323 19:14:19< iceiceice> unless the map is really large there's not much need
20150323 19:14:24< zookeeper> (unless i really really don't care where the units go as long as the general direction is right, and that's very rare)
20150323 19:14:40< iceiceice> yeah if the map is well-made there isn't usually that dead time i guess
20150323 19:14:56-!- new_one [~new_one@128.42.74.254] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 19:15:17< zookeeper> and if something happens in a new turn event for example, the gotos might screw up everything
20150323 19:15:32< gfgtdf> with whiteboard you can for eaxmple easily choose the best route to capture 10 villages with a unit (in sp).
20150323 19:15:32< iceiceice> fwiw i think i dont agree that whiteboard is intrinsically harder to understand than the dsu
20150323 19:15:41< iceiceice> dsu is really pretty bizarre
20150323 19:15:57< iceiceice> with whitboard at least there is a clear idea "this hasn't happened yet, its an arrow / ghost"
20150323 19:16:02< gfgtdf> but since i bserved a c crah with whoiteboard i only use it rarely now.
20150323 19:16:06< gfgtdf> observed**
20150323 19:16:09< iceiceice> the part thats confusing about whiteboard is that it can be on and off
20150323 19:16:15< iceiceice> and you can make moves and are whiteboard moves or not
20150323 19:16:30< iceiceice> thats rarely useful and the source of all of the confusion imo
20150323 19:16:48< iceiceice> right now its like a "whiteboard stack"
20150323 19:16:54< iceiceice> or a queue i guess
20150323 19:17:00< iceiceice> and moves go in the queue and get execute din roder
20150323 19:17:05< iceiceice> what there really shoudl be is just a single button
20150323 19:17:08< iceiceice> the way that DSU works
20150323 19:17:15< iceiceice> and when its on, mvoes go in the queue
20150323 19:17:18< iceiceice> and when its off they all get executed
20150323 19:17:41< iceiceice> i guess there shuld be a "discard" button also
20150323 19:17:49< iceiceice> but maybe when whtieboard mode is on that can just be the undo button
20150323 19:18:47< zookeeper> maybe. i do think it's a bit too heavy for what's most of the time just a ZoC/reach checking tool. you have toggle in on and off, there's no overall visual difference between the modes, you have to execute the moves, you can delete moves, etc.
20150323 19:19:17< iceiceice> yeah but dsu is awkward as a zoc/reach checking tool also
20150323 19:19:25< iceiceice> because it looks like my unit moved
20150323 19:19:36< iceiceice> its not really clear why i should be allowed to undo moves that i normally could
20150323 19:19:43< zookeeper> it doesn't look like your unit moved, the unit really did move
20150323 19:19:45< iceiceice> *could not
20150323 19:20:35< iceiceice> yeah but thats basically the problem
20150323 19:20:39< iceiceice> the unit really did move
20150323 19:20:45< iceiceice> so it really fired all of the events when it moved
20150323 19:20:57< iceiceice> and now became not undoable?
20150323 19:20:59< zookeeper> i mean, sure, what you're doing with DSU on is testing moves, not really doing them, but that's a difference that you made in your mind, whereas with the wb there is a real difference
20150323 19:21:18< iceiceice> no with DSU you are making "temporary" moves that you are planning to undo
20150323 19:21:24< iceiceice> the unit isn't actually exploring
20150323 19:21:25< zookeeper> kinda hard to explain, i suppose :p
20150323 19:21:28< iceiceice> it isn't actually getting vision
20150323 19:21:35< iceiceice> and if you hit a "land mine" i guess your unit gets trapped
20150323 19:21:42< iceiceice> or if you hit a wose
20150323 19:21:48< gfgtdf> if a move with DSU fires an event is it not undoable
20150323 19:21:57< iceiceice> so its really much worse than whiteboard in that way
20150323 19:24:09-!- EdB [~edb@89-158-11-138.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20150323 19:24:44< iceiceice> idk i think the best thing would be if we changed the whiteboard to make it more intuitive
20150323 19:24:51< iceiceice> maybe delete the complex features that no one cares about
20150323 19:24:59< zookeeper> what i see as the big difference is that you can explain DSU to someone in a single paragraph, more or less:
20150323 19:25:02< iceiceice> and then maybe got rid of DSU once whiteboard was just as nice
20150323 19:25:08< zookeeper> "when there's fog or shroud, you can't undo moves because you've seen what there is under the fog/shroud and that'd be cheating. but if you want to try out some moves, you can toggle DSU on and you won't reveal any fog/shroud, so you can still undo. but everything else still happens normally."
20150323 19:25:28-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20150323 19:25:42< iceiceice> planning mode is also a single paragraph:
20150323 19:26:06< iceiceice> "if you want to visualize what would happen if you made some moves, and how the zoc would be different, you turn on planning mode and move the units around. your allies can see also."
20150323 19:26:08< zookeeper> of course, i'm sure every newbie gets annoyed when they discover an unexpected moveto event during their DSU moves, because intuitively those would be suppressed somehow as well
20150323 19:26:11< iceiceice> "if you like the moves you press execute"
20150323 19:26:18< iceiceice> "if you dont you discard'
20150323 19:26:24< zookeeper> fair enough
20150323 19:26:50-!- EdB [~edb@89-158-11-138.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 19:29:07-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20150323 19:30:33-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20150323 19:31:56< zookeeper> hrhm. one big problem IMO in planning mode is that if i toggle in on, plan a move, then toggle it off, the planned move stays. it sort of mixes up the regular and planning modes, instead of keeping them strictly separate.
20150323 19:32:58< iceiceice> yes i agree 
20150323 19:33:03< iceiceice> i think thats a major design flaw
20150323 19:33:25< zookeeper> as a DSU substitute, i could toggle in on and do some plans to check out stuff, and toggle it off whenever i want and continue playing
20150323 19:33:38< iceiceice> we could change whiteboard though i think
20150323 19:33:41< iceiceice> so that it works like DSU in that way
20150323 19:33:44< iceiceice> like, if you turn it off,
20150323 19:33:48< iceiceice> either all the moves happen
20150323 19:33:48< zookeeper> but since the mode bleeds onto the regular mode, it's... awkward, i think
20150323 19:33:51< iceiceice> or allt he moves discard
20150323 19:33:54< zookeeper> yeah
20150323 19:34:12< iceiceice> idk which makes more sense
20150323 19:34:28< iceiceice> if turn off => execute,
20150323 19:34:31< iceiceice> then its similar to DSU
20150323 19:34:37< iceiceice> and you dont need an "execute" button
20150323 19:34:42< iceiceice> and undo can double as the discard button
20150323 19:34:52< iceiceice> but its maybe "safer" if you discard when you turn it off
20150323 19:35:03< zookeeper> well i think that in the planning mode, you should have the option to execute all moves anyway, so toggling planning mode off shouldn't cause anything to happen on its own
20150323 19:35:15< zookeeper> ...but arguably it could be an option
20150323 19:36:04< zookeeper> i think not executing when toggling off would clearly be "safer" as in prevent disaster when someone just tries to escape the planning mode
20150323 19:36:37-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@wh.Uni-Dortmund.DE] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 19:36:59< zookeeper> after all, you only need a few clicks to recreate your plans if necessary, but you can't undo accidental moves and attacks
20150323 19:39:00-!- Kwandulin_2 [~Miranda@p5B0089B0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150323 19:39:50-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 19:42:25< zookeeper> along with changing the aforementioned, i think it'd really help if there was a clear visual distinction.
20150323 19:42:59< zookeeper> if this was a fancy 2015 game we could have a physical piece of translucent paper roll onto the screen and have pencil-like arrows and stuff to make it immediately obvious that it's a _planning_ mode. naturally we can't do _that_, but some kind of obvious visual indicator would be nice.
20150323 19:44:41< iceiceice> maybe we can make some kind of overlay
20150323 19:44:53< iceiceice> idk i never thought about that
20150323 19:46:14< zookeeper> really? the visuals have always been the first thing that have come to my mind when discussing a planning mode :P
20150323 19:47:27-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 19:50:05< zookeeper> but i've always primarily approached it as a multiplayer co-op tool. suggest moves to your ally, make some plans showing what you intend to do next turn, etc
20150323 19:54:44< iceiceice> i mean whenever i used it i used it mainly as a zoc check tool
20150323 19:54:57< iceiceice> make sure that drake glider can't run somewhere i dont want him to etc
20150323 19:55:15< iceiceice> the thing about getting your units trapped by a wose is reason enough not to use in mp
20150323 19:55:25< iceiceice> to use DSU i mean
20150323 19:55:59< iceiceice> also i always thoguht DSU was a little squirrely :p
20150323 19:56:12< iceiceice> planning mode is also squirrely but not for zoc check
20150323 19:56:43< iceiceice> i definitely got crashes in 1.10 if you try to execute a planned attack action
20150323 19:57:09< iceiceice> i guess i wrote an email about that like a year ago ;p
20150323 19:57:22< iceiceice> lol that was a typo ^
20150323 19:57:28< iceiceice> ;p is a pretty strange emoticon
20150323 20:02:56-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20150323 20:04:43-!- kex [~kex@95.180.213.88] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 20:07:12< zookeeper> it's just extra sarcastic
20150323 20:07:36< zookeeper> or at least i believe that's how i interpret it
20150323 20:09:37-!- ancestral [~ancestral@64.113.207.238] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 20:09:55-!- EdB [~edb@89-158-11-138.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20150323 20:17:07< iceiceice> i think its like, extra sarcastic kid trying to make too many different faces at once
20150323 20:20:49< zookeeper> that'd work too
20150323 20:27:09-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 20:29:52-!- ancestral [~ancestral@64.113.207.238] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150323 20:56:27-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 21:03:39-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20150323 21:20:30-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 21:23:35-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 21:23:51-!- kex [~kex@95.180.213.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 21:23:57-!- irker656 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 21:23:57< irker656> wesnoth: Bär Halberkamp wesnoth:master efbefc606b1d / data/campaigns/Eastern_Invasion/maps/04c_Mal-Ravanals_Capital.map: EI: Committed the first version of the map for S4c http://git.io/hAZj
20150323 21:24:00< irker656> wesnoth: Bär Halberkamp wesnoth:master 0971e918960c / data/campaigns/Eastern_Invasion/scenarios/04c_Mal-Ravanals_Capital.cfg: EI: First set of updates to S4c http://git.io/hAnv
20150323 21:24:47-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@wh.Uni-Dortmund.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 21:43:40-!- kex [~kex@95.180.213.88] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 21:59:21-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@f048040039.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 22:27:44-!- kex [~kex@95.180.213.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 22:28:20-!- kex [~kex@95.180.213.88] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 22:30:56-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20150323 22:32:49-!- kex [~kex@95.180.213.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20150323 22:35:30-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 22:36:04-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Client Quit]
20150323 22:39:34-!- tomreyn [~tomreyn@megaglest/team/tomreyn] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 22:47:57-!- ancestral [~ancestral@63.92.240.233] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 22:50:00-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 22:50:27-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 22:50:46-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 22:51:04-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 23:02:02-!- ancestral [~ancestral@63.92.240.233] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150323 23:18:23-!- noy [~Noy@209-82-84-198.dedicated.allstream.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 23:18:30-!- noy [~Noy@209-82-84-198.dedicated.allstream.net] has quit [Changing host]
20150323 23:18:30-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150323 23:38:23-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 23:42:14-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@f048040039.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 23:43:30-!- new_one [~new_one@128.42.74.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150323 23:50:02-!- kex [~kex@78.157.29.160] has joined #wesnoth-dev
--- Log closed Tue Mar 24 00:00:39 2015