--- Log opened Thu Mar 26 00:00:43 2015
20150326 00:24:29-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150326 00:25:28-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 00:28:23-!- Haldrik [~haldrik@unaffiliated/haldrik] has quit [Quit: Haldrik]
20150326 00:33:11-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@s41.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150326 00:47:53-!- Necrosporus [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20150326 01:08:33-!- ancestral [~ancestral@63.92.240.233] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 01:16:05-!- ancestral [~ancestral@63.92.240.233] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150326 01:19:52-!- ancestral [~ancestral@63.92.240.233] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 01:21:27-!- ancestral [~ancestral@63.92.240.233] has quit [Client Quit]
20150326 01:41:02-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 01:47:36-!- groggydice [~chatzilla@75-143-179-137.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 01:50:50-!- Johannes13__ [qnet@141.70.98.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20150326 02:01:11-!- ancestral [~ancestral@65-128-208-249.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 02:24:42-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has quit [Quit: EOF from client]
20150326 02:48:35-!- Necrosporus [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 03:09:24-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20150326 03:09:45-!- fenzil [~fenzil@unaffiliated/fenzil] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 03:10:54-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 03:30:46-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20150326 03:36:34-!- ArneBab [~quassel@55d4439c.access.ecotel.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 03:39:33-!- ArneBab_ [~quassel@55d46596.access.ecotel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20150326 03:42:26-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 04:07:34-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@s41.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 04:17:10-!- Narrat [~Crebiz@pD9F7F29F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20150326 04:40:36-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20150326 04:52:14-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 05:01:07-!- ancestral [~ancestral@65-128-208-249.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150326 05:01:38-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B008C45.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 05:12:56-!- ancestral [~ancestral@65-128-208-249.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 05:36:28-!- fenzil [~fenzil@unaffiliated/fenzil] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150326 06:04:48-!- ErSidward [~sidward@81.0.168.125.sta.wbroadband.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20150326 06:07:25-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B008C45.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150326 06:10:42-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20150326 06:17:04-!- ErSidward [~sidward@81.0.168.125.sta.wbroadband.net.au] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 06:22:27-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 06:23:06-!- Haldrik [~haldrik@unaffiliated/haldrik] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 06:28:16-!- [Relic] [~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:b4f8:7f08:e631:62ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20150326 06:39:32-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-108-82-79.adr01.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150326 06:44:11-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-108-82-79.adr01.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 06:54:50-!- groggydice [~chatzilla@75-143-179-137.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20150326 07:19:41-!- bhldev [~briandev@135-23-177-114.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20150326 07:19:50-!- bhldev [~briandev@135-23-177-114.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 07:25:17-!- ancestral [~ancestral@65-128-208-249.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150326 07:29:33-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 07:30:36-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20150326 07:42:06-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 07:56:49-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20150326 08:00:00-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!]
20150326 08:00:28-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20150326 08:00:51-!- groggydice [~chatzilla@75-143-179-137.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 08:07:29-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 08:12:00-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 08:51:33-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20150326 09:33:10-!- groggydice [~chatzilla@75-143-179-137.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20150326 09:40:56-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20150326 09:43:25-!- groggydice [~chatzilla@75-143-179-137.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 09:52:24-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 09:59:47-!- ErSidward [~sidward@81.0.168.125.sta.wbroadband.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150326 10:12:10-!- ErSidward [~sidward@81.0.168.125.sta.wbroadband.net.au] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 10:14:46-!- groggydice [~chatzilla@75-143-179-137.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 36.0.4/20150320202338]]
20150326 10:54:45-!- ErSidward [~sidward@81.0.168.125.sta.wbroadband.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20150326 11:07:33-!- Johannes13__ [Johannes@141.70.98.30] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 11:07:49-!- ErSidward [~sidward@81.0.168.125.sta.wbroadband.net.au] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 11:27:22-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: xiqy_, janebot, ArneBab, loonycyborg, Vorpal, Xjs|moonshine, Lohengramm, Ivanovic, Sirp, dobson,  (+9 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
20150326 11:27:34-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: HeyCitizen, Soliton, bhldev, Gambit, vincent_c, cyphase, Necrosporus, iwaim__, DDR, EliDupree,  (+31 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
20150326 11:29:33-!- Jetrel [~Jetrel@c-73-164-34-22.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 11:29:33-!- Netsplit over, joins: Soliton, loonycyborg, ErSidward, cyphase, zookeeper, bhldev, oldlaptop, Haldrik, Appleman1234, ArneBab (+46 more)
20150326 11:30:36-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: dobson, Ivanovic, Jetrel_
20150326 11:31:24-!- knotwork [~markm@unaffiliated/knotwork] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 11:33:47-!- Netsplit over, joins: Ivanovic, dobson
20150326 11:35:34-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 11:51:44-!- shurnormal [~uxio@156.Red-81-37-122.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20150326 12:11:01-!- TheJJ [~rofl@ipbcc182e2.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 12:26:01-!- localuser- [~none@unaffiliated/localuser-] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 12:29:53-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@s41.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150326 12:35:17-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@s41.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 13:01:38-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 14:11:13-!- ErSidward [~sidward@81.0.168.125.sta.wbroadband.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20150326 14:51:16-!- Naglfar [219@unaffiliated/naglfar] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 14:52:28< Naglfar> hi, is it possible to undo movement from an determined unit?
20150326 14:58:30< zookeeper> no
20150326 14:59:14< zookeeper> if you move unit X and then a lot of other units, and want to undo X's move, you have to undo them all
20150326 14:59:58< celticminstrel> Oh, is that what he meant.
20150326 15:00:14-!- ArneBab [~quassel@55d4439c.access.ecotel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20150326 15:00:27< zookeeper> it was the only interpretation i could come up with which made any sense, so i went with that
20150326 15:00:54< Naglfar> that's what I mean, to unde X without undo them all
20150326 15:01:17< celticminstrel> Since later moves may depend on earlier moves, that's not generally possible.
20150326 15:02:39< Naglfar> is it possible add this feature for further release ?
20150326 15:02:45< celticminstrel> No.
20150326 15:02:50< celticminstrel> Because of what I just said.
20150326 15:02:57-!- [Relic] [~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:40c:58f3:a0ef:ce4] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 15:03:06< celticminstrel> Generally speaking, it's not possible because each move potentially depends on the previous move.
20150326 15:03:28< DeFender> should it not be possible to know what moves depended on other moves and allow only those which did not to be undone?
20150326 15:03:48< celticminstrel> Well, maybe.
20150326 15:03:56< zookeeper> maybe, but probably not
20150326 15:04:02< DeFender> like, keep a list of moves and a "affected later move" boolean?
20150326 15:04:28< celticminstrel> I think it's rather nontrivial to determine whether a move depends on a previous move.
20150326 15:04:34< zookeeper> indeed
20150326 15:05:17< DeFender> true..
20150326 15:05:27< Necrosporus> Also how does it depend?
20150326 15:05:53< Necrosporus> Do you mean a unit were moved somewhere where other unit was previously?
20150326 15:05:55< celticminstrel> Necrosporus: If you move a unit away from a space and then move a unit into that same space.
20150326 15:06:31< Naglfar> no needed where other unit was previously
20150326 15:06:33< celticminstrel> You could maybe manage it by having some mechanism that selects the move of a specific unit, undoes all moves until that unit's move is undone, and then attempts to redo all the moves except for that one unit's move.
20150326 15:07:02< celticminstrel> What, Naglfar?
20150326 15:07:32< Necrosporus> let's count moves like a singular one-unit movement, so each unit could do several moves in same turn. By this definition it's trivial to check if other unit was moved where the one was previously
20150326 15:08:14< celticminstrel> How is it trivial?
20150326 15:08:16< Naglfar> I mean you move several x1, x2, x3 units, then ie: undo only x2
20150326 15:08:50< Naglfar> without undo x3 
20150326 15:08:56< zookeeper> yes, that is what we're discussing
20150326 15:09:11< Ravana_> but what if unit x2 gave skirmisher to x3 so that it could move at all
20150326 15:09:50< zookeeper> the planning mode is for that sort of thing
20150326 15:10:08< Necrosporus> Like unit X was moved from c1 to c2, where c1 = {x1, y1} and c2 = {x2, y2}, let's say units Y and Z were moved after X, it's trivial to check if Y or Z was moved onto c1, so X's move can't be undone without undoing Y and/or Z moves
20150326 15:10:43< Necrosporus> Ok, it's less trivial then
20150326 15:11:15< Necrosporus> also it becomes more complex when X was moved again, say from c2 to c3
20150326 15:11:41< Necrosporus> but then again, you can't undo X's first movement without undoing second
20150326 15:12:08< celticminstrel> 1) The move depending on not guaranteed to be the previous move. 2) Though moving to where another unit previously was is the example I chose, I'm sure there are other ways in which moves can depend on each other.
20150326 15:12:43< Naglfar> I just try planning mode, it works fine for that question
20150326 15:12:45< Necrosporus> what do you mean by 1?
20150326 15:13:03< Ravana_> moves can depends on each other more indirectly, like with this ability https://github.com/ProditorMagnus/Ageless-for-1-11/blob/master/Ageless_Era/data/general_data/abilities/distract.cfg
20150326 15:26:57< DeFender> it's not just about "this space was occupied", there's also stuff about where moves are possible based on traits, enemies who were once there and were killed now allowing someone to pass, ambushes... there's a lot of things that can affect "what moves could have been made" which is not very easily determined.
20150326 15:27:38< celticminstrel> The enemies one is probably irrelevant.
20150326 15:27:46< celticminstrel> I don't think you can undo past that point?
20150326 15:28:54< DeFender> exactly. there's a reason why not :P
20150326 15:29:32< celticminstrel> In fact, I don't think the game allows you to undo if there was an ambush, either.
20150326 15:29:52< celticminstrel> Anything that has randomized results or reveals new information.
20150326 15:30:00< celticminstrel> Something like that?
20150326 15:30:10< zookeeper> exactly that
20150326 15:30:20< DeFender> exactly
20150326 15:31:00< DeFender> though there are moves which could theoretically have been made before one of those events which could just as easily have not been done and had the same outcome.
20150326 15:31:19< celticminstrel> Ah, that's true.
20150326 15:32:04< DeFender> the point is, it's very nontrivial to calculate all those possible combinations and there's no reason for the devs to to all that extra work just to allow the players to be more lazy and less careful about their planning.
20150326 15:32:16< DeFender> to do*
20150326 15:32:36 * celticminstrel nods.
20150326 15:34:11< DeFender> i basically view undo as a luxury that will work in simple cases but which isn't really designed to be used for more than just "oops, i clicked the wrong hex".
20150326 15:59:17-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B009712.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 16:10:16-!- localuser- [~none@unaffiliated/localuser-] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150326 17:16:42-!- Narrat [~Crebiz@pD9F7F29F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 17:30:25-!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@anderith.bouah.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20150326 17:46:40-!- ancestral [~ancestral@71-34-50-242.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 18:30:44-!- Samual [~Samual@xonotic/core-team/Samual] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20150326 18:31:34-!- Panda_ [~IMO@2a01:e35:8aae:fcb0:a6fd:e761:fbcd:cbc2] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 18:40:14-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20150326 18:53:11-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 18:56:18-!- ancestral [~ancestral@71-34-50-242.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150326 18:57:37-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B009712.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150326 20:12:24-!- EliDupree [~quassel@66-189-34-122.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20150326 20:14:04-!- EliDupree [~quassel@66-189-34-122.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 20:42:05-!- ancestral [~ancestral@71-34-50-242.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 20:48:36-!- d347hm4n [~kde@host-87-242-212-53.ppp.onetel.net.uk] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 20:59:00-!- ancestral [~ancestral@71-34-50-242.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150326 21:00:04-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 21:06:27-!- ArneBab [~quassel@55d4439c.access.ecotel.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 21:54:10-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20150326 22:26:40-!- ErSidward [~sidward@81.0.168.125.sta.wbroadband.net.au] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 22:33:43-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@124.109.10.167] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 22:33:43-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@124.109.10.167] has quit [Changing host]
20150326 22:33:43-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 22:36:16-!- d347hm4n [~kde@host-87-242-212-53.ppp.onetel.net.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150326 23:12:51-!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@anderith.bouah.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 23:24:23-!- test11112 [~tersebv@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/tersebv] has joined #wesnoth
20150326 23:28:19-!- test11112 [~tersebv@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/tersebv] has quit [Client Quit]
20150326 23:34:42-!- Panda_ [~IMO@2a01:e35:8aae:fcb0:a6fd:e761:fbcd:cbc2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150326 23:35:07-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20150326 23:36:35-!- tersebv [~tersebv@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/tersebv] has joined #wesnoth
--- Log closed Fri Mar 27 00:00:29 2015