--- Log opened Tue Apr 28 00:00:58 2015
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20150428 00:44:15< shadowm> ancestral: Any news on the OS X package yet?
20150428 00:44:41< shadowm> It's been a little over a week now.
20150428 00:44:46< ancestral> Yeah :(
20150428 00:44:49< ancestral> Okay, we have two options
20150428 00:44:58< ancestral> I’ve been talking with mattsc a bit
20150428 00:45:01< shadowm> 0. Keep waiting.
20150428 00:45:41< ancestral> I have a build and he has a build. It seems his works 10.8 and older, and mine is 10.10 (10.9 presumably works with one or the other)
20150428 00:46:28< ancestral> One theory is *maybe* building with an older pango may work, given 1.12 works with everything and it has an older pango
20150428 00:46:52< ancestral> The errors I get with mattsc’s, and he with mine, are all related to pango in one way or another
20150428 00:47:22< ancestral> So, we could post up two builds
20150428 00:47:36< ancestral> Or I could try to build with older versions of pango
20150428 00:47:51< iceiceice> ancestral: it might have to do with configuration options of pango or something
20150428 00:47:56< ancestral> Absolutely
20150428 00:48:06< iceiceice> idk though
20150428 00:48:25< ancestral> It really is bizarre that 10.8 and 10.10 behave so differently with a library
20150428 00:49:13< shadowm> It's probably more like the library behaving differently.
20150428 00:49:14< ancestral> when it hasn’t been an issue in the past
20150428 00:49:57< shadowm> You'd have to take a look at its changelog to see if there are any clues as to what may have changed since the last version that works everywhere.
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20150428 01:53:28< ancestral> shadowm: I’ll do some digging tonight. If I can’t figure it out by tomorrow. I have the day off, either we could post two binaries, or, maybe go with mattsc’s if it works with many of the older systems while hopefully we figure out what’s going wrong
20150428 01:54:20< ancestral> (Anyone with newer systems, 10.10 and possibly 10.9, could build from scratch with Homebrew, or build using Xcode.)
20150428 01:54:36< ancestral> shadowm: Is the development version typically in large demand?
20150428 01:55:26< ancestral> Would you be okay with two binaries, assuming it’s temporary?
20150428 01:59:32-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150428 02:00:16< mattsc> ancestral: hi - I saw my name being used.
20150428 02:00:28< ancestral> Hi mattsc!
20150428 02:00:36< mattsc> I really can’t stay here, just wanted to post one minor correction, I am actually using 10.9
20150428 02:00:42< ancestral> Aha
20150428 02:00:45< mattsc> I said that incorrectly previously, so my bad
20150428 02:00:47< ancestral> So it’s only 10.10 users
20150428 02:01:00< mattsc> well, it’s not ruled out yet that it is my computer specifically.
20150428 02:01:09< ancestral> Your thoughts? Two binaries, or leave 10.10 users out for now while I/we figure it out?
20150428 02:01:15< mattsc> the other computer I thought I could use has also been u[garded to 10.10 by now, so no news there
20150428 02:01:22< mattsc> *upgraded
20150428 02:01:30< ancestral> mattsc: I tried running my binary on 10.8 and it crashed
20150428 02:01:36< ancestral> The same one that works in 10.10
20150428 02:01:43< mattsc> did you try mine on that computer?
20150428 02:01:58< ancestral> No, but I can
20150428 02:02:06< mattsc> I would do it, but I only have access to 10.5 or 10.10 computers (other than mine)
20150428 02:02:38< ancestral> If your test build runs (the one you posted on dropbox) in 10.8
20150428 02:02:51< mattsc> I think it would be worth to do that test still before making a decision
20150428 02:02:51< ancestral> Should we post your binary?
20150428 02:02:56< ancestral> Okay
20150428 02:03:17< ancestral> When is better/best to talk again?
20150428 02:03:20< mattsc> well, I’d say let’s post both, in that case, and have people send us feedback on what problems they run into.
20150428 02:03:43< mattsc> umm, good question …
20150428 02:03:52< ancestral> Otherwise
20150428 02:03:57< ancestral> I’ll just post mine up
20150428 02:04:24< mattsc> ancestral: what do we need to talk about?  (as in, I am pretty much out of ideas)
20150428 02:04:41< mattsc> I’m happy to talk (some other time), just don’t know what I can contribute.
20150428 02:04:41< ancestral> If you wanted me to test in 10.8 I’ll do it
20150428 02:04:55< ancestral> Then I’ll just write that here what I find?
20150428 02:05:02< mattsc> Yeah.
20150428 02:05:02< ancestral> I might need an hour
20150428 02:05:19< ancestral> Should I still post up my 10.10 build?
20150428 02:05:19< mattsc> What we know so far (I think) is this: my build does not work on 10.10 system.
20150428 02:05:26< ancestral> Right
20150428 02:05:34< ancestral> And
20150428 02:05:38< mattsc> Your build does not work on mine and on at least one 10.8 system, so likely not on pre-10.01.
20150428 02:05:44< ancestral> My build does not work on my 10.8 nor your machines
20150428 02:05:46< mattsc> grrr; you know what I mean :P
20150428 02:05:50< ancestral> Yes
20150428 02:06:14< mattsc> so, if my build works on the 10.8 system, it’s likely that mine works on 10.9 and before and yours on 10.10
20150428 02:06:15< ancestral> Do I need to repackage/bundle/make changes to the test build you made?
20150428 02:06:42< ancestral> i.e. disk image, background pic, etc. (I can do that)
20150428 02:06:54< ancestral> Translations?
20150428 02:07:07< mattsc> Don’t use the test build (which has 1.13.0-dev in the filename), but if you use the 1.13.0 one, that is “final” and can be posted as is.
20150428 02:07:37< mattsc> I did the full build with translation, background, updated in-game changelog etc. for that one.
20150428 02:07:48< ancestral> Oh, nice
20150428 02:07:53< ancestral> Do you want me to upload it?
20150428 02:08:20< mattsc> Either that, or I can do it, that’s not a problem
20150428 02:08:33< ancestral> Doesn’t matter :)
20150428 02:08:43< mattsc> okay, then you do it  :)
20150428 02:08:49< ancestral> Sure
20150428 02:08:56< ancestral> Mind sharing the link again?
20150428 02:09:12< mattsc> But I’d say at this point, let’s post one version that we believe works on 10.6-10.9 and one for 10.10, with a comment that we’re working on it.
20150428 02:09:17< ancestral> Yes
20150428 02:09:23< ancestral> Correct
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20150428 02:09:32< ancestral> Thanks
20150428 02:10:04< mattsc> Looking up the link, hold on
20150428 02:11:26< mattsc> ancestral: actually, looks like I did not upload it.  So let me just put it on SF and you can get it from there.
20150428 02:12:09< mattsc> (as in, only the test build is uploaded, not the 1.13.0 dmg)
20150428 02:12:11< ancestral> Appreciate your help, hopefully it’ll be smoother sailing going forward
20150428 02:12:31< ancestral> Without having to bother you ;-)
20150428 02:12:45< mattsc> Oh, we’ll figure it out, I’m sure.  It’s just a question of how painful that process is going to be.  ;)
20150428 02:13:17< mattsc> I appreciate you taking over; things are just going to get busier for me over the next couple months...
20150428 02:15:15< mattsc> now what’s my SF password …
20150428 02:16:45< mattsc> ancestral: okay, currently uploading; it claims this will take about 10 minutes.
20150428 02:17:00< mattsc> I’ll let you rename it to make it clear which OS X versions that is for
20150428 02:17:21< mattsc> btw, I pronounce that “oh ess ten”
20150428 02:17:32< ancestral> Hooray!
20150428 02:17:41< mattsc> That’s probably because I am old enough that I remember OS 9
20150428 02:18:32< mattsc> okay; got to go.  I’ll stay on for a little and let you know one the upload is completed and I have checked the checksum
20150428 02:18:44< ancestral> If you start up a Mac for the first time and let the screen stay there, you’ll hear a voice that says “Oh ess ten features a screen reader called VoiceOver. To learn how to use VoiceOver, press command F5…”
20150428 02:19:31< ancestral> mattsc: I don’t care too much what the file names look like, but maybe just make the 10.10. one different?
20150428 02:20:10< ancestral> I will upload my build tonight, after I eat some food
20150428 02:29:59< mattsc> ancestral: okay, upload complete (and checksum looks correct), using the standard filename; feel free to rename it to whatever you see appropriate
20150428 02:31:00< mattsc> ancestral: btw, one of us still needs to commit the fixed and updated (meaning that as two different things) Xcode project file.
20150428 02:31:42< mattsc> I need to be off again; sorry that I keep popping in and out like that all the time, but it’s either that or nothing for me at the moment
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20150428 03:14:51< shadowm> ancestral: Never trust people to download the right file if they need to look at numbers to decide.
20150428 03:15:03< ancestral> What do you suggest?
20150428 03:15:21< shadowm> That's why I'm also opposed to separate x86 and x86_64 Windows downloads.
20150428 03:15:49< shadowm> As for development version demand: should I be realistic, or idealistic here?
20150428 03:16:46< shadowm> If we go with the former then for all I care even the Windows installer is optional. The problem is that not making a platform's package available (especially not around the time of the announcement) doesn't exactly help keep users engaged with the development process.
20150428 03:17:00< ancestral> I mean, are there other options? You could have both together. Probably theres a way to conditionally open the correct set of files while sharing the others
20150428 03:17:28< ancestral> (I’m just not versed enough in Xcode to know if and how that could be done, if not programmatically)
20150428 03:17:42< ancestral> Could we have an installer that copies the right version? (Yuck, but sure)
20150428 03:18:05< shadowm> If there's no 1.13.0 OS X package at the time of the announcement, people who may have considered downloading the development version (who are a very small crowd already) will probably not bother keeping track of the status in that front and might never download the package once it's available, either because they forgot or lost interest.
20150428 03:18:27< shadowm> Now, 1.13.0 is kind of a special case because it's completely broken on all platforms, let's be honest.
20150428 03:18:35< iceiceice> ancestral: i think the answer is to just get working libs
20150428 03:18:49< shadowm> There are a number of bugs people would normally expect us to have caught and fixed before releasing.
20150428 03:18:51< Necrosporus> shadowm, btw, wesnoth binary is about 21 MiB which is 1/10 of package size, so maybe it's a good idea to include both binaries in windows installer?
20150428 03:19:20< shadowm> But I decided we were holding the release back for too long and we'd only accumulate even more bugs if we kept waiting.
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20150428 03:19:47< iceiceice> if the libs are definitely broken somehow, i would try to fiddle with the options
20150428 03:19:53< shadowm> So, is 1.13.0 on Mac a big loss? I really don't know.
20150428 03:19:58< iceiceice> read makefile / whatever, homebrew makes it fairly easy
20150428 03:20:13< iceiceice> if you cant get it to work at all i would try to file a bug with homebrew and see what they say
20150428 03:20:21< iceiceice> or macports
20150428 03:20:30< iceiceice> or with the library maker
20150428 03:21:07< shadowm> Ultimately it depends on how long it'll take us to get 1.13.1 out. I'd like to make this a more fast-paced development cycle, but a) we don't have the required amount of capable coders and energy; b) we don't want to ask people to download 400 MiB every 7 days.
20150428 03:21:25< iceiceice> fwiw if we can figure out how the lib needs to be configured, we can fix it on homebrew also, then people can build git HEAD always with "homebrew install wesnoth --HEAD" iirc
20150428 03:21:47< shadowm> So, that soliloquy above is my opinion on 1.13.0's demand.
20150428 03:21:49< iceiceice> or "homebrew install wesnoth --devel"
20150428 03:21:58< shadowm> Now moving onto the other stuff that people said before I finished.
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20150428 03:22:40< shadowm> ancestral: I'm not sure what SF.net's policy on automated downloads is, but IIRC it's something along the lines of "no".
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20150428 03:23:04< shadowm> That is, downloads that skip the whole ad revenue thing that Dice purportedly uses to keep SF.net running.
20150428 03:23:51< shadowm> I agree with iceiceice that figuring out why the library(ies) work is the best solution in the long term.
20150428 03:23:59< shadowm> s/work/broke/
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20150428 03:24:18< ancestral_> Of course
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20150428 07:49:53< shadowm> ancestral: So, ultimately, it's up to you, but I'd highly prefer if people didn't have to download a different package depending on their OS version/be able to accidentally download a package that will only crash for them.
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20150428 10:45:41< vultraz> shikadibot: seen mattsc 
20150428 10:45:41< shikadibot> vultraz: The person with the nick mattsc last spoke 8h 13m ago.  8h 13m ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-umc-dev with the message: Quit: Not here much atm. Will check logs for my nick and forum PMs.
20150428 10:45:50< vultraz> hm...
20150428 10:50:04< vultraz> PM it is
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20150428 13:48:52< mattsc> vultraz: hi - I do come online when summoned
20150428 13:49:08< vultraz> i pm-ed you on the forums
20150428 13:49:26< mattsc> yes, I saw that; and I’m coming here because it’s easier, I think
20150428 13:49:49< mattsc> I don’t think the hangout MAI is what you want here, but I want to confirm that (as in, what you want exactly)
20150428 13:50:14< mattsc> first, you confused the hell out of me, because the code you sent me in your PM is not what’s used in the scenario
20150428 13:50:22< mattsc> :)
20150428 13:50:26< vultraz> eh...?
20150428 13:50:37< mattsc> there’s no K* in the location filter in the scenario
20150428 13:50:38< vultraz> oh, the SLF?
20150428 13:50:42< vultraz> I changed that locally
20150428 13:50:46< vultraz> thinking it would work
20150428 13:50:48< vultraz> it doesn't
20150428 13:51:08< mattsc> right - in which case DV does not move to the village, but stays on his keep (as he should)
20150428 13:51:33< mattsc> as in, if you use the K* in the filter, he does not move; and that’s consistent with what the MAI should do
20150428 13:51:56< mattsc> (does not move at all, not even to grab the village on the first turn)
20150428 13:52:33< mattsc> anyways, the MAI just keeps units on those hexes you define in the filter, and keeps them on their current hex if that is one of them
20150428 13:53:07< vultraz> no, he does move
20150428 13:53:10< vultraz> to the village
20150428 13:53:12< vultraz> even with K*
20150428 13:53:22< vultraz> also, I;m in a dota2 match so my responded may be delayed
20150428 13:53:29< mattsc> he does not, I tried
20150428 13:53:43< mattsc> okay
20150428 13:54:54< mattsc> okay, here’s the question: do you just want him to stay put wherever he is, or move around the castle/keep/village are for example to attack adjacent enemies?
20150428 13:56:24< vultraz> latter
20150428 13:56:27< vultraz> and to the village to heal
20150428 13:56:37< vultraz> but not outside those 8 hexes
20150428 13:56:41< mattsc> the HO MAI does not do that
20150428 13:56:50< mattsc> it just keeps the unit in place on one of those hexes
20150428 13:57:28< mattsc> and IIRC, there’s no MAI that does what you want
20150428 13:57:45< vultraz> hm...
20150428 13:57:46< vultraz> damn
20150428 13:57:51< mattsc> that’s what I thought (and why I came online to confirm that)
20150428 13:58:15< mattsc> I think we’ve done this in other scenarios by setting the unit’s movement cost to 99 on all other terrain.
20150428 14:01:20< vultraz> yeah
20150428 14:01:24< mattsc> iceiceice: I noticed that in the Lua console, if you do something like print(unit.id, unit.x, unit.y), unlike the original print() function, there are no spaces between the variables in the output.
20150428 14:01:25< vultraz> that was what was done before
20150428 14:01:39< vultraz> I changed it because A: i thought it'd be nice to use an MAI and B: it seemed hacky
20150428 14:03:29< mattsc> vultraz: the problem is that you cannot tell the other candidate actions to do something this specific for a single unit.  But from what you say, you want to keep their behavior.
20150428 14:03:38< mattsc> So that’s really the only way I see of doing this.
20150428 14:10:19< vultraz> no way to modify the hangout to allow movement within that area?
20150428 14:11:30< mattsc> you can do that in the hangout mai, sure, but what you want is allow this movement, and only this movement, for _other_ CAs.
20150428 14:11:45< mattsc> and that’s not how the AI CA system works
20150428 14:12:13< mattsc> for that to work, you need to disallow movement on other hexes globally for the unit
20150428 14:12:19< mattsc> which is what the previous code did
20150428 14:12:23< vultraz> blegh
20150428 14:15:32< vultraz> i hate when wesnoth forces us to hack stuff together ._.
20150428 14:16:46< mattsc> vultraz: look at it this way: it’s great that Wesnoth is so versatile that it is possible to do these kinds of things.
20150428 14:18:41< mattsc> Other than that, I have a bunch of ideas how the the Wesnoth AI code could be improved to allow more configurable.
20150428 14:19:04< vultraz> but who would implement that :P
20150428 14:19:09< mattsc> All it requires is a complete rewrite.  If you want to volunteer for that, let me know.
20150428 14:19:16< mattsc> exactly
20150428 14:19:45< mattsc> so no point in complaining, the existing AI code is actually pretty damned good in many respects
20150428 14:29:02< vultraz> fair point
20150428 14:29:12< vultraz> I guess best option is just to restore the old behavior
20150428 14:30:34< vultraz> thanks for helping
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20150428 14:35:06< mattsc> vultraz: no worries and yes, I think so
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20150428 14:42:36< irker377> wesnoth: Chris Beck wesnoth:cbeck88-patch-1 22ca164e450a / src/scripting/lua_kernel_base.cpp: Update lua_kernel_base.cpp http://git.io/vfADF
20150428 14:43:21< iceiceice> mattsc: ^ if that compiles i will commit
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20150428 15:49:40< travis-ci> Build details : http://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/60387550
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--- Log closed Wed Apr 29 00:00:20 2015