--- Log opened Thu Apr 02 11:58:09 2015 20150402 11:58:17-!- lobby [~wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 11:58:17-!- Topic for #wesnoth: Wesnoth User Channel | http://www.wesnoth.org | Latest stable version: 1.12.1 | Check the upness of Wesnoth servers on http://status.wesnoth.org | Public IRC logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: https://dpaste.de 20150402 11:58:17-!- Topic set by shadowm [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] [Sun Jan 25 22:45:45 2015] 20150402 11:58:17[Users #wesnoth] 20150402 11:58:17[ APic ] [ Falcon` ] [ Lirion ] [ prkc ] 20150402 11:58:17[ Appleman1234] [ Frainz ] [ lobby ] [ prophile ] 20150402 11:58:17[ ArneBab_ ] [ Gambit ] [ Lohengramm ] [ Ravana_ ] 20150402 11:58:17[ bhldev_ ] [ Gnea ] [ MadMerlin ] [ Rhonda ] 20150402 11:58:17[ c74d ] [ hagabaka ] [ mthe878_ ] [ Samual ] 20150402 11:58:17[ Crendgrim ] [ Haldrik ] [ Naglfar ] [ shadowm ] 20150402 11:58:17[ cyphase ] [ HamishTPB ] [ namad8 ] [ Sirp ] 20150402 11:58:17[ d347hm4n ] [ Haudegen ] [ Necrosporus] [ Smar ] 20150402 11:58:17[ DDR ] [ heirecka ] [ noy ] [ Smedles ] 20150402 11:58:17[ dobson ] [ HeyCitizen] [ nuun ] [ TheJJ ] 20150402 11:58:17[ DreadKnight ] [ Ivanovic ] [ oldlaptop ] [ vincent_c ] 20150402 11:58:17[ elias ] [ iwaim__ ] [ Panda_ ] [ Vorpal ] 20150402 11:58:17[ EliDupree ] [ janebot ] [ pe_em ] [ vultraz ] 20150402 11:58:17[ Elsi ] [ Jetrel ] [ Pepe_ ] [ xiqy_ ] 20150402 11:58:17[ ephemer0l ] [ knotwork ] [ PjotrOrial ] [ Xjs|moonshine] 20150402 11:58:17-!- Irssi: #wesnoth: Total of 60 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 60 normal] 20150402 11:58:17-!- Home page for #wesnoth: http://www.wesnoth.org 20150402 11:58:24-!- Channel #wesnoth created Sun Nov 26 06:42:43 2006 20150402 11:58:44< pe_em> oh yes! 20150402 11:59:14-!- Irssi: Join to #wesnoth was synced in 65 secs 20150402 11:59:39-!- Soliton [~Soliton@wesnoth/developer/soliton] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 12:02:03< pe_em> was it a "prima aprilis" joke? ;) 20150402 12:02:33-!- ErSidward [~sidward@81.0.168.125.sta.wbroadband.net.au] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 12:08:44< Rhonda> It was a "too little coffein in Rhonda" situation. 20150402 12:26:26-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B008567.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 12:39:14-!- ErSidward [~sidward@81.0.168.125.sta.wbroadband.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20150402 12:41:56-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@s108.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20150402 12:51:36-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@s108.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 12:58:49-!- pe_em [b22af195@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.42.241.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20150402 13:55:11-!- pe_em [~AndChat37@afth149.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 13:58:58-!- Implementor37 [44b792a3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.183.146.163] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 14:09:17-!- pe_em [~AndChat37@afth149.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20150402 14:12:25-!- Gnea [~gnea@unaffiliated/gnea] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20150402 15:01:24-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy] 20150402 15:03:52-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 15:04:51-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Client Quit] 20150402 15:17:20-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20150402 15:22:28-!- [Relic] [~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:ac22:2d9c:9190:202c] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 15:31:03-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 15:31:07-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 15:35:12-!- Wuzzy [~Wuzzy@p549F9DB0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 15:35:27-!- DreadKnight [~DreadKnig@unaffiliated/dreadknight] has quit [Quit: #AncientBeast - Master Your Beasts ( www.AncientBeast.com )] 20150402 15:35:43-!- DreadKnight [~DreadKnig@unaffiliated/dreadknight] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 15:36:15-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@s108.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20150402 15:48:34-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@37.35.27.57] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 15:48:37-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@37.35.27.57] has quit [Changing host] 20150402 15:48:37-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 16:17:31-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 16:22:33-!- namad8 [aaaaa@pool-173-71-186-192.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 20150402 16:51:05-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B008567.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20150402 17:03:08-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B008567.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 17:15:24-!- JackBauer24 [~JackBauer@89-71-84-205.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 17:17:59-!- JackBauer24 [~JackBauer@89-71-84-205.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 20150402 17:20:32-!- JackBauer24 [~JackBauer@89-71-84-205.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 17:22:07-!- JackBauer24 [~JackBauer@89-71-84-205.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 20150402 17:47:04-!- Narrat [~Crebiz@pD9F7F29F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 17:51:12-!- Johannes13_ [~Johannes@unaffiliated/johannes13] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 18:01:01-!- Rhonda [~rhonda@wesnoth/developer/rhonda] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20150402 18:02:55-!- Rhonda [~rhonda@anguilla.noreply.org] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 18:03:10-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy] 20150402 18:12:28-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 18:47:10-!- JackBauer24 [~JackBauer@89-71-84-205.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 18:51:15-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B008567.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20150402 19:11:40-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy] 20150402 19:17:10-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 19:20:02-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Client Quit] 20150402 19:26:07-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 19:28:13< janebot> Tweet (by @Wesnoth) (RT @lalobee) http://wesnoth.org server is back online, sorry for the inconvenience. did some precautions for next time. #wesnoth [ https://twitter.com/Wesnoth/status/583712554821656576 ] 20150402 19:36:18-!- loonycyborg [~loonycybo@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 20:02:45< celticminstrel> I don't think I'd be able to do anything Wesnoth-creating-related without the wiki. 20150402 20:18:11-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20150402 20:23:41-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 20:25:22-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 20:26:53-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20150402 20:27:22-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 20:31:37-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has quit [Client Quit] 20150402 20:38:29-!- SpoOkyMagician [~chatzilla@cpe-74-132-57-45.kya.res.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 20:39:50-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 21:34:48-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20150402 21:36:53-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 21:37:39-!- nuun [afternuun@ipv6.firrre.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20150402 21:38:48-!- [Relic] [~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:ac22:2d9c:9190:202c] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20150402 21:40:52-!- [Relic] [~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:ac22:2d9c:9190:202c] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 21:44:22-!- nuun [afternuun@ipv6.firrre.com] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 21:48:52-!- ErSidward [~sidward@81.0.168.125.sta.wbroadband.net.au] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 21:55:31-!- Implementor37 is now known as Implementor37_De 20150402 21:56:24-!- Implementor37_De is now known as Implementor37 20150402 22:14:05-!- Sasquash [~Sasquash@c-67-170-165-157.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 22:34:44< Implementor37> Has anyone here actually read through http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WML_for_Complete_Beginners ? So far I've been unable to find any feedback on it via the forums, so I don't know if everything is clear enough for its target audience. Any feedback you guys have would be greatly appreciated as I try to finish this! 20150402 22:36:37-!- Haldrik [~haldrik@unaffiliated/haldrik] has quit [Quit: Haldrik] 20150402 22:52:45< celticminstrel> I'm not exactly a beginner, but I'll take a look... 20150402 22:53:04 * celticminstrel already found a minor grammarish error in the intro. 20150402 22:55:02-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy] 20150402 22:55:19< celticminstrel> Implementor37: Your example of how moving words around changes the meaning of the sentence is actually a case where it doesn't change the meaning. 20150402 22:55:40< celticminstrel> "I like A and B" means the same as "I like B and A", though there may be slightly different shades to it. 20150402 22:56:27-!- Sasquash [~Sasquash@c-67-170-165-157.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #wesnoth ["Warp Speed Enabled"] 20150402 22:58:32< celticminstrel> (Also, the analogy fails slightly since people usually can understand things with somewhat incorrect syntax while Wesnoth cannot tolerate even a minor syntax error, but then it's an analogy, so you can't really expect it to be perfect...) 20150402 23:00:49< celticminstrel> You seem to have confused "markup language" with "SGML/XML". 20150402 23:01:11< celticminstrel> Which is probably fine though, since WML does most closely resemble them in particular. 20150402 23:01:46< shadowm> Superficially. 20150402 23:02:07< shadowm> Very much so. 20150402 23:02:43-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 23:03:52< celticminstrel> It's just that some things you've mentioned as being properties of markup languages, aren't. 20150402 23:04:45< shadowm> Actually, the sandwich meaning changes the meaning depending on which meaning you choose for the first example. 20150402 23:04:54< shadowm> The sandwich example. 20150402 23:05:26< shadowm> "I like jelly and cheese sandwiches." is either "I like (jelly and cheese) sandwiches" (most obvious) or "I like jelly (and cheese sandwiches)". 20150402 23:05:40< celticminstrel> shadowm: Yeah, I noticed that after commenting on it. >_> 20150402 23:05:59< shadowm> So Implementor37 might want to use a less ambiguous example. 20150402 23:06:00< celticminstrel> I first saw the second meaning. 20150402 23:06:01 * APic likes Foodstuffs! o/ 20150402 23:06:52< celticminstrel> Is it true that strings with spaces need to be quoted? 20150402 23:06:55< shadowm> English is extremely lenient with capitalization in most contexts and registers. 20150402 23:07:15< shadowm> Computer programming languages (except a few like certain BASIC dialects and such) generally aren't. 20150402 23:07:34< Implementor37> I didn't write the whole thing. Most of it was written by Artisticdude, I just added a bit to the section on [scenario] and the entire [event] section. I am trying to get this finished though, so your feedback is helpful! 20150402 23:07:42< shadowm> for example if i started typing like this in this chat room nobody would complain and theyd be perfectly fine with it 20150402 23:07:58-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy] 20150402 23:08:44< celticminstrel> Implementor37: Ah, okay. 20150402 23:09:37< celticminstrel> Is it true about strings with spaces, shadowm? 20150402 23:09:44< shadowm> celticminstrel: Only in three situations. 1) Translatable strings (I'm not sure if the translatability mark works with unquoted strings in Wesnoth, but it will cause problems with relevant tools like wmlxgettext, which generates the translation catalogues from WML input); 3) Macro substitutions. 20150402 23:10:04< celticminstrel> That's two situations. 20150402 23:10:29< shadowm> For (3), say, if you have {MODIFY_UNIT id=Gerald name Gerald the Great}, the preprocessor sees 5 macro parameters, whereas MODIFY_UNIT is defined to only take 3. 20150402 23:10:51< shadowm> Thus the paramater containing spaces needs to be either quoted, or specified in parentheses. 20150402 23:11:12< shadowm> 2) Multiline strings, in a way. 20150402 23:11:15< celticminstrel> Hm, so even if not strictly true it's not a bad idea to treat it as if it's true. 20150402 23:12:15< shadowm> IIRC you can construct multiline strings without quotes using just the literal concatenation operator +, but that probably falls into esoteric territory. 20150402 23:12:19< Implementor37> yeah, that should be either "Gerald the Great" or Gerald_the_Great---WML sees them as identical, if I'm not mistaken 20150402 23:12:47< shadowm> Implementor37: No, not in this case. 20150402 23:12:58< celticminstrel> Underscores and spaces are different. 20150402 23:13:30< shadowm> When it comes to identifiers for units, scenarios, etc., "Foo_Bar" and "Foo Bar" are decidedly different. The only exception to this rule is event names (not identifiers!). 20150402 23:13:33< celticminstrel> But you often see a unit's ID be its display name with the spaces replaced with underscores. 20150402 23:14:10< shadowm> So `[event] name=attacker hits` and `[event] name=attacker_hits` are synonymous, but only because that's an exception we made specifically for event names. 20150402 23:14:15< Implementor37> name=foo_bar and name="foo bar" are processed the same (note the lack of quotes around foo_bar) though, right? Does this not work for everywhere? 20150402 23:14:36< celticminstrel> Apparently not! 20150402 23:16:25< shadowm> I don't *think* we made the same exception for event ids (`[event] id=` is probably a more advanced feature that's out of the scope of a beginners' tutorial anyway), and it's certainly not the case for any other attributes. 20150402 23:17:31< shadowm> (Incidentally, unit names are required to be translatable by convention. Don't copy my MODIFY_UNIT example above as-is.) 20150402 23:18:42< celticminstrel> Did you miss that the section on preprocessor directives is absent from chapter 3? 20150402 23:19:41< shadowm> I think you can define custom WML tags with uppercase labels, although that's also against our coding conventions. 20150402 23:20:37< shadowm> The engine is also inconsistent with regards to what language mistakes (as long as they produce well-formed WML) will cause errors. 20150402 23:20:47< Implementor37> So that was just a specific workaround for event names? In that case, why even bother to support foo_bar = "foo bar" just for event names, when you could just cut support for foo_bar and force UMC authors to use quotes? Seems like a violation of the KISS principle...Oh well. I'll make sure that examples use quotes to avoid confusion--and '_' translatable marks too. 20150402 23:21:58< Implementor37> Yes, celticminstrel, i missed that. Should i just cover the basic #ifdef <...> #endif, or extend it to #define #enddef and #ifver? 20150402 23:22:20< shadowm> I think the introduction of the [event] name exception predates my involvement with the project, so I don't know. 20150402 23:23:01< celticminstrel> I feel like macros might be an advanced topic... but not sure... 20150402 23:23:13< celticminstrel> Certainly cover ifdef and ifver though. 20150402 23:23:19< shadowm> Mainline seems to prefer whitespace instead of underscore for engine-defined event names. 20150402 23:23:20< celticminstrel> And macro invocation. 20150402 23:23:36-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@s108.BMT-e1.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth 20150402 23:23:45< celticminstrel> Because there are a lot of predefined macros. 20150402 23:24:16< Implementor37> so use name= "" instead of name=_"? 20150402 23:24:25< celticminstrel> No. 20150402 23:24:39< celticminstrel> name=pre move 20150402 23:24:47< shadowm> "Tagset". This is the first time I've ever read anyone give a name to the concept of pairing opening and closing tags. 20150402 23:24:47< celticminstrel> Instead of name=pre_move 20150402 23:24:56< shadowm> In WML. 20150402 23:25:07< shadowm> Outside engine code. 20150402 23:26:04< Implementor37> btw macros are covered in chapter 9 (or will be). Probably just cover #ifdef and #ifver at that point 20150402 23:26:49< Implementor37> and macro arguments are always fun...especially when calling a macro from a macro... 20150402 23:27:25< shadowm> Ever used macro substitutions to decide which macro to substitute? 20150402 23:28:02< Implementor37> not yet--is that essentially overloading a macro? 20150402 23:28:21< shadowm> Well, no, I don't think so. 20150402 23:29:27< Implementor37> actually, thats another question i don't know the answer to yet should probably cover:. would WML even let you overload a macro? 20150402 23:29:35< shadowm> Say, #define MACRO_SUB_WITH_FIXED_ARG_1 MACRO_NAME ARG2 ARG3 ARG4 {{MACRO_NAME} some_hardcoded_arg1 {ARG2} {ARG3} {ARG4}} #enddef 20150402 23:30:06< shadowm> This will actually substitute whatever macro is named in the first parameter to a MACRO_SUB_WITH_FIXED_ARG_1 substitution. 20150402 23:30:26< shadowm> But this should probably be considered esoteric WML. 20150402 23:31:01< shadowm> The only person I know who's successfully used this to accomplish things mysteriously disappeared from the Internet some time later. 20150402 23:31:23< APic> .o0(Conspiracy Theories…) 20150402 23:31:51< APic> Seriously, who the Heck can exist without Intarwebs™ these Days? 20150402 23:32:16< shadowm> But overloading a macro as in giving the same name to two different macros with different argument lists? Not possible, the last definition of the macro will clobber previous ones. 20150402 23:34:30< shadowm> As a mainline developer, I also don't think that describing WML as a scripting language that specifies tasks is an accurate representation at all. 20150402 23:35:10< APic> Seconded. 20150402 23:35:24< APic> (Even though i am no Developer at the Moment.) 20150402 23:36:06< shadowm> I'd say it's more like a general purpose descriptive language that specifies things in a tree-like structure, and some of those things (mostly just [event]) just happen to be instructions/tasks. 20150402 23:36:49< shadowm> The bulk of the WML Wesnoth has to read every time is purely descriptive and doesn't define concrete actions for the engine to take. 20150402 23:37:30< APic> Engines always remind me of the „Fire Engines”… 20150402 23:37:43< APic> Well, mostly. 20150402 23:37:55< shadowm> For example, the [terrain_graphics] tag. There are like a billion of these to be read every session, and the engine puts the information they provide together and determines how terrain elements interact with each other based on that. 20150402 23:38:41< shadowm> But they have to be processed as a whole, not as individual discrete units. 20150402 23:39:11< shadowm> This is unlike statements in a classic scripting language. 20150402 23:41:34< shadowm> This might be just pedantry, though. I'm sure a complete beginner doesn't care or wouldn't understand either way. 20150402 23:43:15< APic> Seconded. 20150402 23:43:17-!- Wuzzy [~Wuzzy@p549F9DB0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Wuzzy] 20150402 23:47:54< shadowm> Also note that empty tags are valid WML and there are a few predefined cases like [redraw] and [lock_view]. 20150402 23:49:18< shadowm> Numerical strings can be specified in hexadecimal and octal , too. 20150402 23:50:08< shadowm> Real numbers in decimal can be specified using exponent notation as well. 20150402 23:54:18< APic> Does it support Binary, too? 20150402 23:55:21< shadowm> No, and it doesn't support octal either, actually. 20150402 23:55:56< APic> I see. 20150402 23:56:02< APic> Thanks for the Information. 20150402 23:56:09< shadowm> But it will take hexadecimal using the "0x" (case-insensitive) prefix as parsed by strtod(3). 20150402 23:58:12< shadowm> Okay, so to clarify, people call WML nodes like [foo][/foo] "tags". [foo] is the opening tag, and [/foo] is the closing tag, and together they define a tag, but never before I've seen anyone call it a tagset. 20150402 23:58:22< shadowm> Implementor37: ^ 20150402 23:58:33< celticminstrel> Exponential form is a good thing to include. --- Log closed Fri Apr 03 00:00:02 2015