--- Log opened Sat May 02 00:00:43 2015
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20150502 04:09:27< shadowm> ancestral: You haven't posted yet?
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20150502 04:14:19< ancestral> shadowm: What do you need me to post?
20150502 04:14:34< shadowm> ... that the packages are out.
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20150502 04:14:47< ancestral> I thought you wanted me to edit the announcement with the links
20150502 04:15:03< ancestral> Alright, you want me to post in that thread?
20150502 04:15:09< shadowm> No, I told you the other day I told you even before to post, not edit the announcement.
20150502 04:15:49< shadowm> But I guess you missed my messages in both instances.
20150502 04:16:41< ancestral> “20150429 01:51:58< shadowm> ancestral: If you feel it's final, please post the links and info in the forum thread and update http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Template:DevDownload accordingly.”
20150502 04:17:08< shadowm> Yeah, post is the keyword.
20150502 04:17:13< ancestral> Sorry I didn’t mean post meant reply in the thread.
20150502 04:17:25< ancestral> I thought you meant post the links in the announmcnet.
20150502 04:17:32< ancestral> *announcement
20150502 04:17:45< ancestral> In any case, I can reply in the thread
20150502 04:18:04< ancestral> Do you need me to style it, or just say “the packages for OS X are now available”
20150502 04:18:12< ancestral> *style it in a particular way
20150502 04:18:24< shadowm> Just do it how you'd normally post any other post.
20150502 04:18:29< ancestral> Okay
20150502 04:19:54< shadowm> 20150429 21:39:12< shadowm> ancestral: I wanted you to post in a reply, not edit the announcement.That'
20150502 04:20:05< ancestral> I get that know
20150502 04:20:07< shadowm> That's the message you mised.
20150502 04:20:08< ancestral> *now
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20150502 04:21:58< ancestral> I see
20150502 04:22:20< iceiceice> shadowm: what would you think about back porting anura's i18n code?
20150502 04:22:25< iceiceice> to wesnoth
20150502 04:22:32< iceiceice> it has some substantial advantages
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20150502 04:24:37< shadowm> I don't know anything about that. It's been forever since I last did stuff for Frogatto and many features that now exist in Anura didn't at that time.
20150502 04:25:12< iceiceice> so their i18n code is really small
20150502 04:25:13< shadowm> I think I left just as basic i18n was in the process of being shoehorned in.
20150502 04:25:35< iceiceice> so they dont use gettext or boost locale
20150502 04:25:44< iceiceice> they basically just have a std::map<std::string, std::string>
20150502 04:25:51< iceiceice> and they had some code to parse mo files
20150502 04:26:09< iceiceice> you might thing that mo files have some magic to make them very fast or something,
20150502 04:26:17< iceiceice> but it turns out that this is fine i guess
20150502 04:26:23< iceiceice> they dont have any of the complexity of text domains
20150502 04:26:32< iceiceice> text domains just aren't a thing
20150502 04:26:46< iceiceice> today i added some code so that it can parse po files
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20150502 04:26:51< iceiceice> which seems to work
20150502 04:27:17< iceiceice> what they dont have is all the fancy stuff about plural forms
20150502 04:27:40< iceiceice> but in theory if we added that i think it would be a big improvement for wesnoth
20150502 04:27:47< iceiceice> (1) no text domains
20150502 04:27:55< iceiceice> (2) add-ons can ship po files, so we can forget about wescamp
20150502 04:28:41< iceiceice> its kind of a large change though, i'm not sure if we have the appetite for it :/
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20150502 04:34:23< shadowm> 01:26:25 <iceiceice> they dont have any of the complexity of text domains
20150502 04:34:40< shadowm> Of course not, textdomains aren't defined by the catalogues themselves.
20150502 04:35:23< iceiceice> well, they are a limitation imposed by libintl's design
20150502 04:35:32< shadowm> It's not even among the identification info included in the uncompiled catalogue.
20150502 04:35:36< iceiceice> which anura doesnt have since it doesnt use libintl
20150502 04:36:00< shadowm> I've never thought of them as a limitation, actually.
20150502 04:36:11< iceiceice> heres what i say is a limitation
20150502 04:36:24< iceiceice> alright so the sequence is .pot -> .po -> .mo
20150502 04:36:29< shadowm> I just thought it was some pedantic categorization we used and which only really makes sense for add-ons.
20150502 04:36:34< iceiceice> so .mo is the binary catalogue
20150502 04:36:59< iceiceice> and contains some kind of hash table / binary tree / some datastucture optimized for lookup
20150502 04:37:07< iceiceice> and libintl is the interface to it
20150502 04:37:32< iceiceice> in gnu gettext, text domain is basically the name of the .mo file i am plugged into right now
20150502 04:37:53< iceiceice> there is no way to say "load all of these .mo files into one combined dictionary"
20150502 04:38:02< iceiceice> you can only be pointed at a single .mo file at a time
20150502 04:38:09< iceiceice> determined by locale + textdomain
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20150502 04:38:44< iceiceice> unless you are going to try to recompute / merge the data structures and hold them in memory or something, theres no way you coudl plug into multiple .mo's
20150502 04:38:56< iceiceice> i mean,
20150502 04:39:07< iceiceice> the design of gettext is that you dont hold the catalogue in memory
20150502 04:39:08< shadowm> Okay, then how does t_string handle mixed domains?
20150502 04:39:17< iceiceice> i think it doesnt
20150502 04:39:26< shadowm> I actually think it does.
20150502 04:39:30< iceiceice> its just a pair, string, text domain
20150502 04:39:33< iceiceice> what it represents is a delayed lookup
20150502 04:39:55< shadowm> The reason is that in WML we can concatenate strings from different textdomains in an attribute using the preprocessor, and that's deserialized into a single t_string.
20150502 04:40:16< shadowm> So what happens when I request a STL string from that t_string?
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20150502 04:41:49< iceiceice> i think probably it does the look up right then
20150502 04:42:20< iceiceice> i mean its got to be somewhere around here, right?
20150502 04:42:20< iceiceice> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/tstring.cpp#L346
20150502 04:42:31< shadowm> So it ask gettext to close and open catalogues as many times as necessary per string I guess?
20150502 04:42:56< shadowm> Well, the reason I'm asking you instead of checking the code myself is that you are the one proposing to replace all this. :3
20150502 04:43:57< iceiceice> i cant see any reason to have textdomains at all
20150502 04:43:59< shadowm> I really don't know whether gettext has to actually open and close catalogues every time we switch textdomains, but if it's the case then that's clearly inefficient.
20150502 04:44:18< shadowm> And that's what "you can only be pointed at a single .mo file at a time" suggests.
20150502 04:44:32< iceiceice> i think its just a library that was designed in liek 1980
20150502 04:44:49< iceiceice> when binary formats rather than text formats "for speed" seemed like a good idea
20150502 04:45:03< ancestral> shadowm: I felt some explanation was to be had http://r.wesnoth.org/p584747
20150502 04:45:10< shadowm> I'd think opening and closing files was much more expensive back then than it is now.
20150502 04:45:17< iceiceice> i think it doesnt read the whole file
20150502 04:45:38< iceiceice> i'm not really sure
20150502 04:45:51< iceiceice> i mean i could point you to get text docs,
20150502 04:46:17< iceiceice> its pretty clear that they never intended that a client app would load all the strings into memory and re-optimize or anything like that
20150502 04:46:39< iceiceice> i think they wanted something that could work even for really tiny programs wtih very little overhead
20150502 04:47:10< iceiceice> i mean ultimately you have to ask what is good about text domains
20150502 04:47:24< iceiceice> it seems like its really just a gotcha to mess with users / us
20150502 04:47:28< shadowm> 01:27:57 <iceiceice> (2) add-ons can ship po files, so we can forget about wescamp
20150502 04:47:45< shadowm> Okay, how do I put this...
20150502 04:48:00< shadowm> Maybe I should paste an excerpt from a PM response I wrote a few weeks ago.
20150502 04:48:30< shadowm> And yes, I know AI0867 is not really running WesCamp correctly, but that's an orthogonal issue.
20150502 04:48:54< shadowm> One I'd yet to hear an explanation for, seeing as how AI0867 is very evidently not dead.
20150502 04:49:01< shadowm> *'ve
20150502 04:49:57< shadowm> "Reading the relevant translation team’s page on the wiki and getting in touch with the maintainers for your language is usually a good first step for translating anything, be it add-ons or mainline. The reason I recommend this is that in the past there have been noticeable differences in quality between add-on and mainline translations—at least in Spanish—because people don’t always bother to study the mainline team’s style ...
20150502 04:50:03< shadowm> ... conventions thoroughly, producing output that might as well come from a different game altogether. This disparity can be jarring and result in a disappointing experience for players trying out add-ons after playing through a minimal amount of mainline content."
20150502 04:50:36< shadowm> I'd like to think of a (properly run) WesCamp as a QA buffer for add-on translations.
20150502 04:50:52< iceiceice> i mean
20150502 04:51:17< iceiceice> if i'm the maintainer of an add-on
20150502 04:51:17< iceiceice> i feel like i should be the QA
20150502 04:51:17< shadowm> Not everyone gets it and there are many translators who will submit their translations to WesCamp directly, bypassing their translation team, but I'd rather not encourage that.
20150502 04:51:27< iceiceice> so what i would rather have is like,
20150502 04:51:39< iceiceice> add-ons can upload anything, but only some of them get a "wescamp seal of approval" or something
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20150502 04:51:56< iceiceice> right now it seems that its way too hard to actually get translations with your add-on
20150502 04:52:15< iceiceice> what with text domain snafus / long live wescamp
20150502 04:52:35< shadowm> 01:48:32 <shadowm> And yes, I know AI0867 is not really running WesCamp correctly, but that's an orthogonal issue.
20150502 04:52:44< shadowm> It's a distraction from the point.
20150502 04:52:57< shadowm> So yeah, good luck learning Chinese, Japanese, Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian, Latin, Finnish,  etc. if you want to QA all your add-on's translations.
20150502 04:53:40< shadowm> That'd be a really cool thing to do but I doubt I'll manage to get halfway through our list of active translations before either the project closes down or I die of old age.
20150502 04:53:53< iceiceice> :p
20150502 04:54:14< iceiceice> ok, so i think i pitched this wrong
20150502 04:54:20< iceiceice> the main thing is,
20150502 04:54:28< iceiceice> if you dont need mo files then running wescamp becomes trivial
20150502 04:54:34< iceiceice> and can be done by any translator i guess
20150502 04:55:47< iceiceice> is that right?
20150502 04:55:56< iceiceice> are translators capable of running po updates?
20150502 04:56:05< iceiceice> :hmm:
20150502 04:56:13< shadowm> The compiling step is supposed to be done either by WesCamp or add-on authors, I don't remember, but it certainly doesn't change things for translators other than making it easier to test changes without knowing how to run msgfmt/having a catalogue editor that does that for them (poedit does I think).
20150502 04:56:37< iceiceice> it would also dramatically simplify the preprocessor i think
20150502 04:56:46< iceiceice> if we didnt have to do anything about #textdomain
20150502 04:57:41< shadowm> I'm mostly interested in whether textdomain switching really incurs in file open/close overhead.
20150502 04:58:23< shadowm> There's a theoretical chance a string should be translated differently for two different textdomains but I don't know if that crops up in practice.
20150502 04:59:08< shadowm> (Two different textdomains such as two different add-ons.)
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20150502 04:59:27< iceiceice> i think you could fix it with a context marker
20150502 05:00:15< shadowm> Trusting UMC people to use those correctly/at all, though?
20150502 05:00:40< iceiceice> i think its easier than getting the text domains right
20150502 05:00:56< iceiceice> you can just give a warning if there is a collision across fles
20150502 05:00:59< iceiceice> *files
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20150502 05:01:16< iceiceice> shadowm: there is a comment here:
20150502 05:01:17< iceiceice> http://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Locating-gettext-catalog.html
20150502 05:01:17< shadowm> Uh, no, you can't do that.
20150502 05:01:31< iceiceice> "If the program which wish to use bindtextdomain at some point of time use the chdir function to change the current working directory it is important that the dirname strings ought to be an absolute pathname. Otherwise the addressed directory might vary with the time."
20150502 05:02:03< shadowm> The concept of "files" is specific to the WML preprocessor and falls apart once the parser gets involved. It also doesn't exist for engine localization.
20150502 05:02:42< shadowm> Or specific to the standalone parser, actually. Falls apart once the preprocessor-parser pipeline gets involved, which is the case most of the time.
20150502 05:02:52< iceiceice> no i think you didnt undrestand me
20150502 05:03:08< iceiceice> right now, each text domain corresponds to a *.mo file
20150502 05:03:23< iceiceice> when we run gettext, we look up the string the single *.mo file correspodning to the current text domain
20150502 05:03:44< shadowm> We were discussing a hypothetical textdomain-free world, though?
20150502 05:03:51< iceiceice> we could do like anura, and instead load all the *.mo files into a single place
20150502 05:04:09< iceiceice> then, at the time that we are parsing all of them, we can notice "hmm a string was assigned two different translations"
20150502 05:04:13< iceiceice> "warning"
20150502 05:05:06< iceiceice> for addons i guess it owuld be like,
20150502 05:05:14< iceiceice> either we are looking in the binary_path for *.po files?
20150502 05:05:26< iceiceice> or we have a separate [translations] dir = ... [/translations] ?
20150502 05:05:30< shadowm> No, binary_path is not involved. There's a dedicated tag for this.
20150502 05:05:43< shadowm> [textdomain].
20150502 05:06:10< iceiceice> anyways i guess at the time of parsing that, we would try to add new things to the dictionary
20150502 05:06:15< iceiceice> and possibly emit warnngs
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20150502 05:06:36< shadowm> And this wouldn't necessarily take ages with a massive collection of catalogues with generally long strings?
20150502 05:07:46< iceiceice> it would only take ages if we *arent* currently loading all that stuff into memory
20150502 05:07:57< iceiceice> i believe that gettext actually does not, that it does a file seek
20150502 05:08:09< iceiceice> more docs in support of that view:
20150502 05:08:10< iceiceice> https://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_node/Optimized-gettext.html
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20150502 05:09:25< shadowm> I meant the warning about mismatched translations for duplicates in a textdomain-free (and libintl-free) world.
20150502 05:09:53< iceiceice> you thnk that would take ages to resolve?
20150502 05:10:29< shadowm> I don't know, maybe not if the strings were compared using a hash table?
20150502 05:10:46< iceiceice> so i mean
20150502 05:10:47< shadowm> As opposed to lexicographical comparison.
20150502 05:11:04< shadowm> I'm saying big words I don't understand.
20150502 05:11:33< iceiceice> so in general when i have dictionary data structures, if i have n strings i expect like log n look up times
20150502 05:11:41< iceiceice> if i have k text domains of size n,
20150502 05:12:05< iceiceice> if i have to look them up in sequence i guess it becomes k log n
20150502 05:12:12< iceiceice> but if i merge them into one thing its log k + log n
20150502 05:12:35< iceiceice> i think that basically you would just like "parse first po file into a binary tree"
20150502 05:12:42< iceiceice> "parse second po file into that binary tree"
20150502 05:12:43< iceiceice> etc.
20150502 05:12:53< iceiceice> and if theres a collision you'll find out,
20150502 05:13:10< iceiceice> but the time to add stuff into the tree is not going to be substantial
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20150502 05:13:57< iceiceice> idk i think it should be similar to sorting the list of translated strings
20150502 05:14:22< iceiceice> like n log n over all
20150502 05:14:39< iceiceice> if you want to allow for "text domain free"
20150502 05:14:51< iceiceice> thats definitely the way to go rather than say "for each text domain { try to find the string } "
20150502 05:14:55< iceiceice> i think
20150502 05:15:18< iceiceice> i mean even if i have 20 text domains,
20150502 05:16:01< iceiceice> the overhead i'm going to get with 1 binary tree compared to having 20 binary trees is like + log 20 at the worst i guess
20150502 05:16:11< iceiceice> so it really shouldnt matter
20150502 05:18:21< iceiceice> i guess i dont know how much more memory it requires,
20150502 05:18:29< iceiceice> my feeling is that gettext was probably optimized for that
20150502 05:18:38< iceiceice> but wesnoth is already kind of a hog on memory
20150502 05:19:13< iceiceice> it looks like most of our po files are less than a megabyte
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20150502 14:23:38< Ballero> Hi quick WML question: Is there a convenient way to toggle a multiplayer side on/off in an ERA?
20150502 14:23:51-!- Ballero is now known as Siddh
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20150502 17:29:24< Nobun> Hi... can I have summary about what problem occurred during Mac Os Packaging? I am a bit curious.... I read the irclogs on #wesnoth-dev but I didn't understand exactly why the "wrong" binary in the "wrong" Mac version doesn't wrong
20150502 17:30:24< Nobun> I need only 2 words about what happened, not the complete details... I don't want to disturb too much
20150502 17:30:28< vultraz> we're not sure why versions compiled on 10.10 crash on previous versions, and vice versa, so there's a separate package for 10.10 and one for 10.6 - 10.9
20150502 17:30:44< Nobun> yeah but what kind of crash occurred?
20150502 17:31:01-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20150502 17:31:07< Nobun> I'd like to see (even if I don't have Mac) if I can help you to figure the reason of the problem
20150502 17:31:13< vultraz> something to do with pango, I believe
20150502 17:31:38< Nobun> but it crash during testing at random.... it doesn't start at all....?
20150502 17:31:51< vultraz> i believe not
20150502 17:31:54< vultraz> not sure
20150502 17:31:57< vultraz> I'm on windows
20150502 17:32:05< vultraz> ancestral and mattsc handle the mac packages
20150502 17:32:23< Nobun> ok thank for your help, however.... appreciated a lot ;)
20150502 17:32:30< vultraz> no prob
20150502 17:32:56< Nobun> if mattsc or ancestral will be here, I will ask them :D
20150502 17:34:52< Nobun> in the meantime I'm trying to rebuild wesnoth on linux on debug mode with -pedantic flag ;)
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--- Log closed Sun May 03 00:00:20 2015