--- Log opened Mon May 25 00:00:42 2015
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20150525 00:46:32< DeFender1031> i think i found a bug in delfador's memiors. "Save the king" is followed by the story-only scenario "dark sky over weldyn", followed by "a new ally". However, I noticed two things. 1. There is a bizarre reply file being saved for "dark sky" which just has delfador standing on a board which is only 2 hexes large and making no moves and 2. the more annoying part, the starting gold for "a new ally" is only 80% of the carry-over gold from "save the 
20150525 00:46:34< DeFender1031> king", as if "dark sky" had been an actual scenario which itself only carried over 80%.
20150525 00:46:49< DeFender1031> (version 1.12)
20150525 00:49:12< DeFender1031> replay file*
20150525 00:54:58< vultraz> I can fix that
20150525 01:03:25< vultraz> DeFender1031: done. http://git.io/vTNwHb (master) and http://git.io/vTNwN (1.12)
20150525 01:03:40< vultraz> Thanks for reporting :)
20150525 01:09:14< DeFender1031> glad i could be of help. also, you guys are pretty awesome. Most of the time when I give an ad-hoc bug report in some IRC channel, I'm told i'll have to add it to the tracker, wait months for someone to look at it, usually get told it's not actually a bug...
20150525 01:10:16< DeFender1031> now the question is how to patch my current install, since i'm using the debian package...
20150525 01:10:32< vultraz> Well, this was a really simple bug. No point asking you to go through all that abstraction for something I could do in a minute :P
20150525 01:11:02< vultraz> Plus, there aren't really many active devs anymore, so I doubt many see ad-hoc bug reports here, unfortunately
20150525 01:12:32< vultraz> Which is also why a lot of bugs go unfixed for months :(
20150525 01:12:36< DeFender1031> oh, i didn't mean here. Any time i've had a question, comment, bug report here, i've always been met with the most friendly of responses. I'm talking about for pretty much any other project online.
20150525 01:12:41< DeFender1031> hmm... that's unfortunate.
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20150525 01:15:55< DeFender1031> i've been seeing new versions coming out every few months thoug, so there must be someone developing, no?
20150525 01:18:03< DeFender1031> i wish i had the time to contribute.
20150525 01:18:27< DeFender1031> (more than just playing occasionally and mouthing off in here, anyway)
20150525 01:22:39< vultraz> yeah, we manage a release every few months
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20150525 01:24:43< DeFender1031> that's pretty good for "not many active devs anymore"...
20150525 01:25:12< vultraz> There are about .... 3 or 4 people 
20150525 01:26:50< DeFender1031> i know of whole companies build on fewer devs than that... :P
20150525 01:27:45< shadowm> 1.12.2 wouldn't have come out until maybe August if it weren't for *the* bug fix included in it.
20150525 01:29:40 * DeFender1031 goes to look at changelog to find out what this *the* bugfix is...
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20150525 01:29:59< shadowm> First from the top.
20150525 01:32:42< DeFender1031> okay, i must be not looking in the right place. I can't find anything for 1.12 at all...
20150525 01:32:59< DeFender1031> oh, i was
20150525 01:33:33< DeFender1031> blargh... i give up. What's this fix?
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20150525 01:34:04< shadowm> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=41870
20150525 01:34:13< vultraz> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=41872
20150525 01:34:38< DeFender1031> ah
20150525 01:35:05< DeFender1031> i guess i was looking at the right changelog, it was just listed under 13, rather than 12.2
20150525 01:35:42< shadowm> Version 13 doesn't exist, and neither does 12.2. >:(
20150525 01:36:30< shadowm> This is the right changelog: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/1.12.2/changelog
20150525 01:36:34< DeFender1031> yes, i know. I was speaking in shorthand for 1.*
20150525 01:36:38< DeFender1031> ah
20150525 01:37:10< DeFender1031> that would make sense to be the one to look at...
20150525 01:37:27 * DeFender1031 feels stupid.
20150525 01:38:14< shadowm> You shouldn't feel like that.
20150525 01:38:48< DeFender1031> "oh, gee, i'm wondering what was fixed in 1.12.2, why don't I look at the changelog for 1.13.0? durr hurr hurrr..."
20150525 01:41:55< DeFender1031> the fact that it's 4:40 AM for me might have something to do with it... i think i ought to head off...
20150525 01:42:23< DeFender1031> thanks guys.
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20150525 20:35:02< DeFender1031> hey vultraz, i checked out that memiors fix you put in last night, and now for some reason i'm getting 100 gold MORE than i should be on "a new ally"
20150525 20:35:10< DeFender1031> (not that i mind... :P)
20150525 20:36:38< vultraz> "carryover_add: if true the gold will be added to the starting gold the next scenario, if false the next scenario will start with the amount of the current scenario (after taxes) or the minimum in the next scenario. Default is false."
20150525 20:36:48< vultraz> NEW_GOLD_CARRYOVER sets it to true
20150525 20:38:48< DeFender1031> hmm...
20150525 20:40:27< vultraz> So basically the new behavior is "adding your previous gold to some you get in the next scenario"
20150525 20:40:32< vultraz> which I think makes more sense
20150525 20:40:40< vultraz> Don't you think?
20150525 20:42:13< DeFender1031> in most cases yes, but DM specifically doesn't do that for its scenarios... meaning, in most campaigns, you get whatever gold you save from the previous scenario (usually 40%) on top of the starting gold for the next. All the ones in DM are set up that you get EITHER 80% of the gold from the previous scenario OR the starting gold for the next scenario, whichever is higher.
20150525 20:43:25< vultraz> Well then what we have here is a design inconsistency
20150525 20:43:48< vultraz> NEW_GOLD_CARRYOVER is used in cutscenes  in THoT..
20150525 20:43:50< vultraz> hm...
20150525 20:45:08< DeFender1031> i thought it was intentional, to make DM harder by forcing gold conservation.
20150525 20:45:39< vultraz> Unlikely
20150525 20:45:55< vultraz> but idk :/
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20150525 20:47:57< DeFender1031> IIRC, a couple of the other intermediate campaigns are structured like this as well
20150525 20:49:14< vultraz> zookeeper, care to weigh in here?
20150525 20:50:57< zookeeper> on the design inconsistency between mainline campaigns?
20150525 20:51:33< vultraz> mhm
20150525 20:51:37< DeFender1031> found it. legend of wesmere is the same. 80% or starting gold.
20150525 20:53:06< zookeeper> sure i'd like all campaigns to handle carryover similarly, or at least get rid of the 80% thing which i've never liked much. but the usual maintainer/maintenance/balancing etc etc etc.
20150525 20:53:44< vultraz> I could deal with it
20150525 20:58:17< DeFender1031> vultraz, seems that for the moment, the quick fix would be to make sure that "dark sky" isn't adding on any gold at all, and that the long fix would be to change everything to the "40% plus starting gold" model. (Seems you'd also need to come up with a balanced number for that starting gold to be for each campaign, as, unless I'm mistaken, the starting gold they come with if you don't save a decent chunk is impossibly low...)
20150525 20:58:45 * vultraz groans
20150525 21:00:05< DeFender1031> ...sorry.
20150525 21:00:15< zookeeper> vultraz, i know fendrin has specifically wanted to keep the old-style carryover in some places
20150525 21:00:26< vultraz> ._.
20150525 21:00:35< vultraz> you mean the 40?
20150525 21:00:38< vultraz> or the 80?
20150525 21:00:45< zookeeper> 80%
20150525 21:00:51< zookeeper> surely there's no old-style 40% anywhere
20150525 21:01:09< vultraz> So 40 is the correct, modern style
20150525 21:01:23< zookeeper> 40% + starting gold is the "modern style", yes
20150525 21:01:33< zookeeper> 80% or starting gold is the "old-style"
20150525 21:01:39< DeFender1031> i like the 80, personally, in the ones that use it.
20150525 21:01:43< vultraz> Ok, so that's {NEW_GOLD_CARRYOVER 40}
20150525 21:02:23< vultraz> I guess that's why it's called NEW
20150525 21:02:25< vultraz> lol
20150525 21:04:34< zookeeper> yes that might be it :P
20150525 21:05:02< DeFender1031> looks like the old style is:
20150525 21:05:02< shurnormal> That reminds me of Wesnoth 1.6 :D
20150525 21:05:03< DeFender1031>             [gold_carryover]
20150525 21:05:05< DeFender1031>                 bonus=yes
20150525 21:05:06< DeFender1031>                 carryover_percentage=80
20150525 21:05:08< DeFender1031>             [/gold_carryover]
20150525 21:05:14< DeFender1031> (or at least, what DM is using)
20150525 21:05:40< DeFender1031> i can go test it right now, but to make "dark sky" behave properly, i think it'd be to include that and change the 80 to 100...
20150525 21:06:09< DeFender1031> wait no, that's the entry in objectives i think... hmmm
20150525 21:06:12< vultraz> yes
20150525 21:06:22< vultraz> objective entries so not affect actual carryover
20150525 21:06:25< vultraz> do not*
20150525 21:07:55< DeFender1031> found it.
20150525 21:08:12< DeFender1031> there's an endlevel section in "council in weldyn" that does the same.
20150525 21:08:42< DeFender1031>             carryover_percentage=100
20150525 21:08:48< DeFender1031> let's see if that works...
20150525 21:08:52< vultraz> yes
20150525 21:08:53< vultraz> but you see
20150525 21:09:05< vultraz> NEW_GOLD_CARRYOVER includes carryover_add=true
20150525 21:09:11< vultraz> and we should really standardize this stuff
20150525 21:09:27< zookeeper> in case some story scenarios somewhere affect the carryover gold, then they shouldn't. if scenario B is a story-only scenario, then the carryover report at the end of scenario A should accurately reflect the amount of gold you get in scenario C.
20150525 21:10:27< DeFender1031> yeah
20150525 21:11:09< zookeeper> ...and preferably the gold you see in the top bar in scenario B should be your carryover gold from A
20150525 21:12:04< DeFender1031> vultraz, the proper fix, at least for the moment, is to replace the "{NEW_GOLD_CARRYOVER 100}" that you added to dark sky yesterday with "carryover_percentage=100". I just tested it and it works as advertized, like zookeeper said.
20150525 21:12:22< vultraz> so wait
20150525 21:12:36< vultraz> are we saying that cutscene scenarios should NOT use carryover_add
20150525 21:12:38< vultraz> ?
20150525 21:13:00< DeFender1031> that's right.
20150525 21:13:29< DeFender1031> in addition to the fact that DM never uses carryover_add.
20150525 21:13:30< vultraz> zookeeper do you agree here?
20150525 21:13:48< vultraz> What it uses now is irreverent, really
20150525 21:13:55< DeFender1031> and the other cutscenes don't either (in any scenario as far as i can tell)
20150525 21:14:04< DeFender1031> er, campaign.
20150525 21:14:14< vultraz> I added it in THOT when I refactored it
20150525 21:14:42< zookeeper> umm, of course they should use carryover_add. how else would the gold for the next scenario be correct?
20150525 21:15:06< vultraz> Oh right
20150525 21:15:08< vultraz> Hm
20150525 21:15:10< vultraz> OK
20150525 21:15:22< vultraz> I say henceforth, all cutscene scenarios should use NEW_GOLD_CARRYOVER 100
20150525 21:16:14< DeFender1031> even in campaigns which otherwise don't use carryover_add? or are you going to change all of them?
20150525 21:16:19< vultraz> Yes
20150525 21:16:21< vultraz> change all of them
20150525 21:16:24< DeFender1031> okay then.
20150525 21:16:24< vultraz> in master, at least
20150525 21:16:44< vultraz> I'm considering using a single carryover_percentage key for the dm cutscene in 1.12
20150525 21:16:52< zookeeper> of course what i just said doesn't apply to scenarios which are supposed to use old-style carryover. which might be none if vultraz converts all remaining ones.
20150525 21:17:00< DeFender1031> right.
20150525 21:17:05< vultraz> hail conversion!
20150525 21:17:06< vultraz> :D
20150525 21:17:14< DeFender1031> FWIW, I like the old-style carryover where i've seen it used.
20150525 21:17:59< DeFender1031> the two where i've seen it used are LoW and DM, both of which focus on one guy going around and leading different armies in different places, rather than one single band of people
20150525 21:18:21< DeFender1031> seems like "what you've got is what you have" makes sense thematically in those cases.
20150525 21:19:33< zookeeper> well, if you get zero carryover gold, you'll still start the next scenario with "more than you have"
20150525 21:20:00< DeFender1031> true, but that's a mechanic to make sure you at least have SOMETHING to work with...
20150525 21:20:19< DeFender1031> then again, like i said, i'm pretty sure the starting gold with no carryover is impossibly low...
20150525 21:20:57< DeFender1031> for example, it's 100 on "a new ally". Enjoy your favorite 5 units, because you won't be getting any more.
20150525 21:22:41< zookeeper> yeah, the reasons for the new-style carryover are purely due to the old-style mechanics having this binary cutter WRT how much carryover you get. if you get 99 gold then tough, that's just as bad as if you ended with 1, so if you're doing poorly then there's no incentive to actually try to collect more gold. _and_ you have no way of knowing how much you'd need to collect in order to get to 
20150525 21:22:41< zookeeper> keep any of it.
20150525 21:23:25< DeFender1031> hmm...
20150525 21:23:31< DeFender1031> i suppose that's true
20150525 21:24:07< DeFender1031> though, that said, my suggestion would be that starting gold for LoW and DM be 0 except for the first scenario and if you don't save enough to carry over, tough/
20150525 21:24:28< zookeeper> in comparison, with the new-style carryover, you always benefit from more gold (as long as you end with positive gold)
20150525 21:24:30< DeFender1031> that would fit thematically and do away with your binary guillotine.
20150525 21:25:16< zookeeper> something like that could work as a hardcore mode of sorts, but i think it'd be really frustrating for anyone but a hardcore player who knows what they're getting into
20150525 21:25:38< DeFender1031> like i said, it's practically what ends up happening now anyway.
20150525 21:25:42< DeFender1031> but i hear...
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20150525 21:27:25< DeFender1031> then again, the debate isn't between what happens now and my somewhat far-fetched zero-carry over idea, it's between vultraz's "make them work like the other scenarios" and my far-fetched idea.
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20150525 21:27:45< vultraz> I would just like to standardize things
20150525 21:30:16< zookeeper> DeFender1031, well, your far-fetched idea still has the problem of a death spiral where you have little gold for a scenario and thus perform poorly and again get little gold for the next scenario and when you find out that you cannot recover, you'll have to replay the last three scenarios
20150525 21:30:19< zookeeper> ...which isn't fun
20150525 21:30:22< DeFender1031> i'm all for standardization. I had been under the impression that this was not a matter of standardization as much as one of varying the campaigns. (There IS a fine line between the two.)
20150525 21:31:02< vultraz> The campaign "variation" you speak of is more like the simple fact that no one bothered to standardize or make sure new campaigns going into mainline all worked the same way :P
20150525 21:31:25< DeFender1031> that's true... then again, you can have the same issue if you don't have enough experienced units, or even not have enough gold with the standard 40% on top rule...
20150525 21:31:35< zookeeper> i mostly came up with the new-style system to narrow the range of carryover gold; that you're less likely to end up with no carryover at all, and less likely to end up with ludicrous piles of gold
20150525 21:31:51< vultraz> *coughNRcough*
20150525 21:32:11< shadowm> NR is standard enough.
20150525 21:32:12< DeFender1031> vultraz, that does make sense.
20150525 21:32:35< vultraz> NR uses 80
20150525 21:32:37< zookeeper> DeFender1031, well, the starting gold of most scenarios was upped alongside the change to the 40% system, and the intent is for every scenario to be possible to finish with minimum gold.
20150525 21:32:41< DeFender1031> zookeeper, but I LIKE my ludicrous piles of gold!
20150525 21:32:56< DeFender1031> :P
20150525 21:33:02< shadowm> NR's addition predates the carryover changes.
20150525 21:33:22< vultraz> Therefor I shall fix it
20150525 21:36:21< DeFender1031> zookeeper, my first time through HttT I didn't realize that purple meant a unit couldn't level up anymore (I was new to it, okay?). By the time I got to "Battle For Wesnoth", I had basically just Delfador, Kalenz, and Konrad leveled up, and maybe another elf or two. I ended up creating an expendible wall of dwarves and going through about three dozen of them before I weakened the opening wave of enemies enough to send out my main units and clean 
20150525 21:36:23< DeFender1031> up...
20150525 21:37:49< zookeeper> DeFender1031, well, leveled units are indeed a second kind of carryover, and the intent is also for at least all beginner-level campaign scenarios to be doable with minimum gold and no recalls
20150525 21:38:18< DeFender1031> well, it was doable... 36 dwarf deaths later.
20150525 21:38:34< zookeeper> dwarves well spent
20150525 21:38:48< DeFender1031> (though i doubt it would have been doable without the extra gold i had as well...)
20150525 21:38:49 * shurnormal statement of the night
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20150525 21:38:58< DeFender1031> hehehehe
20150525 21:39:11< DeFender1031> shurnormal, which one?
20150525 21:39:39< shurnormal> dwarves bully
20150525 21:39:52< zookeeper> but yeah, i'm sure there's some scenarios late in the campaigns where that might not hold true, but...
20150525 21:40:14< zookeeper> you really _should_ have some leveled units to recall when you finish arrive in that scenario ;)
20150525 21:40:19< zookeeper> -finish
20150525 21:40:31< vultraz> finnish? :D
20150525 21:40:50< zookeeper> nah
20150525 21:41:04< zookeeper> when you finish the campaign<lots of backspace>arrive in that scenario
20150525 21:42:31< DeFender1031> wait wait... dwarves are finnish?
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20150525 21:42:54< DeFender1031> actually, that reminds me... Why are dwarves always portrayed as scottish?
20150525 21:43:34< vultraz> because they are :P
20150525 21:43:39< shurnormal> Scots bully?
20150525 21:44:03< DeFender1031> (at least in the "our universe is just the british territories but with MAGIC" form of fantasy, which is most of it)
20150525 21:44:59< DeFender1031> i looked it up once. The best anyone has to offer is "they're short, bearded miners who live in the mountains in the north and love to drink. Why would they ever NOT be scottish?"
20150525 21:47:40< vultraz> heh
20150525 21:47:44< vultraz> anyway im off again
20150525 21:47:49< vultraz> ill see about the things later
20150525 21:49:50< DeFender1031> yay things.
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