--- Log opened Sat Jun 27 00:00:37 2015
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20150627 01:19:53< Yaiyan> Wish wesnoth supported fullscreen window :/
20150627 01:20:07< shadowm> It... does.
20150627 01:20:12< Yaiyan> But it looks so much better than last time I played
20150627 01:20:14< Yaiyan> ....It does?
20150627 01:20:22< Yaiyan> ....It does?
20150627 01:20:23< shadowm> Ctrl+F, or Preferences -> Display -> Fullscreen.
20150627 01:20:24< Yaiyan> Oops
20150627 01:20:40< Yaiyan> That does a normal fullscreen for me?
20150627 01:21:03< shadowm> I'm not sure what you mean by fullscreen window then?
20150627 01:22:08< Yaiyan> It's when "fullscreen" is just a borderless window with the same resolution as your screen
20150627 01:22:35< Yaiyan> OS X treats it as its own desktop, and Ubuntu hides the top menu bar when somethings in that mode
20150627 01:22:59< shadowm> Doesn't going fullscreen like I said hide the menu bar too in Ubuntu (you mean with Unity?)?
20150627 01:23:30< Yaiyan> Fullscreen would do that, yes, but if you have two screens
20150627 01:23:57< shadowm> I'm on Plasma and all desktop elements are hidden when Wesnoth goes fullscreen, but I only have one screen.
20150627 01:24:00< Yaiyan> It just mirrors itself on both screens, but on fullscreen window, you can move your mouse between the two, and it's just fullscreen on one
20150627 01:25:11< Yaiyan> I'm trying to see if I can find anything online about it, but I'm just remember from when I was reading the sdl2 docs a while back
20150627 01:25:21< shadowm> I have to say, I've never heard of "fullscreen window" mode being a thing on any application.
20150627 01:26:33< shadowm> I also have only one screen so I don't know how Wesnoth/SDL 1.2 applications in general interact with multiple displays.
20150627 01:26:47< Yaiyan> Not well, basically
20150627 01:27:02< Yaiyan> Although, not a lot of things do work well with multiple displays, even now, surprisingly
20150627 01:27:15< shadowm> I'm also unsure how much of that interaction is supposed to be driven by the X11 client (Wesnoth/SDL 1.2 apps) or the window manager.
20150627 01:27:56< Yaiyan> https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL_WindowFlags, I'm pretty sure it's a SDL2 thing, and doesn't exist in 1.2
20150627 01:28:09< Yaiyan> But SDL calls it's fullscreen window, despite me not finding a lot on google for that term
20150627 01:30:25< celticminstrel> Huh, fullscreen actually doesn't seem to work for me (everything just goes blank when I try it and stays blank when I switch back).
20150627 01:30:33< shadowm> celticminstrel: Aren't you on OS X?
20150627 01:30:37< celticminstrel> Yes.
20150627 01:30:48< shadowm> Wesnoth in OS X is broken. Known issue.
20150627 01:30:51< celticminstrel> But yes, like Yaiyan says, true fullscreen is often handled badly, preventing a second monitor from being used.
20150627 01:30:55< Yaiyan> 1.10 definitely works with fullscreen on OS X for me
20150627 01:30:59< Yaiyan> Haven't installed 1.12 on it though
20150627 01:31:13< Yaiyan> Wait, ye, I did the other day >.< fullscreen works for me on yosemite
20150627 01:31:19< Yaiyan> Just can't change workspace when it's in fullscreen
20150627 01:31:24< shadowm> It's out of our control right now, unfortunately.
20150627 01:31:25< celticminstrel> Personally I think the best way to do it is to just create a borderless window the same size as the screen.
20150627 01:31:33< celticminstrel> Rather than a real fullscreen mode.
20150627 01:31:40< Yaiyan> celticminstrel, pretty sure that's a sdl2 thing anyway
20150627 01:31:49< celticminstrel> No.
20150627 01:31:53< Yaiyan> Is it not?
20150627 01:32:01< celticminstrel> SDL2 might provide a super-convenient way to do it.
20150627 01:32:07< Yaiyan> Oh
20150627 01:32:09< celticminstrel> But it should be possible in SDL1 too.
20150627 01:32:12< shadowm> I love my window manager because I get to decide whether to make windows borderless even if applications request otherwise. :p
20150627 01:32:25< Yaiyan> I remember not finding a convenient way last time I checked, but you might well be right
20150627 01:32:40< celticminstrel> As long as you have a) a way to query the size of the screen and b) a way to say "make a window without a titlebar", it should be doable.
20150627 01:32:57 * celticminstrel hasn't used SDL for years though.
20150627 01:33:16< celticminstrel> So I could be wrong.
20150627 01:33:33< shadowm> SDL_NOFRAME flag to SDL_SetVideoMode() in 1.2.
20150627 01:33:40< Yaiyan> I've barely used it at all, so your guess is likely better than mine
20150627 01:33:43< celticminstrel> Well, there you go!
20150627 01:33:52< Yaiyan> Hmm
20150627 01:33:57< shadowm> Only problem is that you also need to know which window manager you are dealing with.
20150627 01:33:59< celticminstrel> Then all you need is a way to query the current screen resolution.
20150627 01:34:04< celticminstrel> You do? Why?
20150627 01:34:05< Yaiyan> If macport's wasn't so horrifically borked on my laptop, I'd try it out
20150627 01:34:34< shadowm> For example, KDE's window manager won't let non-fullscreen windows on top of Plasma panels if the panels are set to stay always on top of windows.
20150627 01:34:54< shadowm> So the result wouldn't be any different from disabling the window's border from the WM.
20150627 01:35:19< Yaiyan> Supertux seems to use the fullscreen window mode, so checking out how that looks on Plasma is one way to test
20150627 01:35:31< shadowm> Supertux dev uses SDL 2.
20150627 01:35:36< Yaiyan> Yep
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20150627 01:58:18< Yaiyan> On Ubuntu, just created a borderless window the size of your screen doesn't work
20150627 01:58:26< Yaiyan> Or rather, it does in sdl2, but that's no good
20150627 01:58:31< Yaiyan> Ubuntu+unity*
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20150627 02:19:59< Afdal> I hope you guys aren't thinking of switching to SDL2
20150627 02:20:13< Afdal> SuperTuxKart used to run on all high for me until the latest version
20150627 02:20:27< Afdal> when they switched and now I can't play it anymore without a new graphics card
20150627 02:20:41< shadowm> STK uses a modified fork of Irrlicht, not SDL.
20150627 02:20:49< Afdal> ehhhh
20150627 02:20:56< Afdal> oh wait
20150627 02:20:57< Afdal> no
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20150627 02:20:59< Afdal> I'm thinking of OpenGL
20150627 02:21:00< Afdal> 3.0
20150627 02:21:05< Afdal> <.<
20150627 02:21:38< shadowm> They were using OpenGL before, they just added some features that demand more power fromt he GPU.
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20150627 02:21:56< Afdal> that's what I mean
20150627 02:22:01< shadowm> (I also suspect they didn't fully optimize them.)
20150627 02:22:05< Afdal> it used to run on OpenGL 2 or whatever
20150627 02:22:08< Yaiyan> I'm sure I remember wesnoth started switching a while back?
20150627 02:22:22< shadowm> Wesnoth is still on software-only rendering with SDL 1.2.
20150627 02:22:22< Afdal> Then they switched to OpenGL 3 which a lot of older cards such as mine literally can't run
20150627 02:22:28< Afdal> okay :3
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20150627 02:22:46< shadowm> Eventually, we may switch to OpenGL but odds are we won't use anything too fancy and it'll still run on my GM45 laptop.
20150627 02:23:10< Afdal> I:}
20150627 02:23:24< shadowm> We basically only want to be able to render on the screen and maybe use shaders for particle and lighting effects.
20150627 02:23:59< shadowm> All sprites will still be sprites so there's not a lot to do with them that could be taxing on the GPU.
20150627 02:24:38< Afdal> It's not that SuperTuxKart added new features that require a lot more power or anything
20150627 02:24:50< Afdal> it's that they switched to a version of OpenGL that isn't supported period by older cards
20150627 02:25:27< shadowm> I am not too concerned about leaving old hardware users out in the cold if needed for some reason.
20150627 02:26:02< shadowm> But in STK's case I should know because I have OpenGL 4.3-capable hardware and the only issue for me is performance.
20150627 02:26:22< Afdal> that's not very nice :(
20150627 02:26:58< Afdal> I think leaving old hardware behind is only acceptable when the hardware is too weak to run something
20150627 02:27:01< shadowm> To put things into perspective, Wesnoth used to run just fine on X.org with fbdev.
20150627 02:27:06< Afdal> Wesnoth will never be a demanding game
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20150627 02:27:52< shadowm> Then at some point we just broke support for 16 bpp resolutions and thus people using fbdev started hitting blit speed issues since fbdev becomes near-expontentially lower as you increase bit depth.
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20150627 02:28:06< Afdal> Star Trek Online is set in the years 2409/2410, thirty years after the events of Star Trek Nemesis. The alliance between the United Federation of Planets and the Klingon Empire has collapsed, and both sides are once again at war. The Romulan Star Empire continues to deal with the fallout of the loss of their homeworld twenty-two years earlier (as shown in J. J. Abrams' Star Trek reboot), while the Dominion rebuilds its force
20150627 02:28:09< Afdal> lol oops
20150627 02:28:11< Afdal> wrong channel
20150627 02:28:30< shadowm> We did this because it's much easier from our perspective to support only 8 bits-per-channel RGBA rendering.
20150627 02:28:46< shadowm> Less crummy code to maintain and fix when it breaks.
20150627 02:29:20< shadowm> Every legacy option (such as support for old library versions and compilers) eventually becomes a maintenance burden.
20150627 02:29:51< shadowm> Some day our Windows packager will leave and we'll have to replace him with someone who won't be as charitable as to provide builds that run on Windows XP.
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20150627 02:30:19< shadowm> It's just how it works for volunteer-driven projects, sadly.
20150627 02:30:34< Afdal> omg ;_;
20150627 02:30:44< Yaiyan> I'd say many open source projects are a lot better at maintaining support than a lot of professional ones seem to be
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20150627 02:31:36< shadowm> Windows has a lot of support for legacy applications but it's only because Microsoft was paid large sums of money for it, and the quality of the codebase occasionally suffers as a result. (Sometimes spectacularly so; see Windows 9x.)
20150627 02:32:27< Yaiyan> Humm
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20150627 02:32:35< Yaiyan> There was a gsoc project last year to port wesnoth to sdl2?
20150627 02:32:38< Yaiyan> What happened to that?
20150627 02:33:41< shadowm> Maybe I should write a blog post on this with more diagrams since this question is even more recurring than the font rasterization mayhem.
20150627 02:33:48< Yaiyan> Might well be
20150627 02:33:58< Yaiyan> I actually found that blogpost really interesting btw
20150627 02:34:05< Yaiyan> Hope you don't mind me stalking your blog occasionally :p
20150627 02:34:05< shadowm> If you give me 30 minutes I'll come back and try to explain the SDL 2 situation.
20150627 02:34:27< Yaiyan> Sure, if you're up for it I'd love to learn more
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20150627 02:56:19< shadowm> So, the student and mentor in charge of the SDL 2 transition project (which was only intended for 1.13.x, anyway, not 1.12.x) stumbled upon issues with SDL's software rendering API halfway through.
20150627 02:56:41< Yaiyan> I see
20150627 02:57:02< shadowm> This had something to do with how SDL 2 handles alpha channels (I'm unsure of the details myself).
20150627 02:57:40< shadowm> Their solution was to bring SDL_gpu into our codebase. SDL_gpu appears to be a wrapper around hardware-accelerated graphics with SDL 2.
20150627 02:58:05< shadowm> However, they ultimately hit the same issue two other people independently had before when attempting to port Wesnoth to OpenGL years before.
20150627 02:58:20< shadowm> Wesnoth's rendering API is not GPU-friendly.
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20150627 02:59:20< Yaiyan> And that's what's caused the hold-up
20150627 02:59:30< shadowm> This is primarily because Wesnoth handles images in independent (currently software) surfaces. We require thousands, possibly tens of thousands of those for regular gameplay.
20150627 02:59:41< Yaiyan> That many?
20150627 02:59:43< shadowm> Unit animation frames, UI graphics, terrain graphics, etc.
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20150627 03:00:03< shadowm> And those are just the ones that are handled through Wesnoth's transparent image caching API.
20150627 03:00:22< shadowm> Then we have font raster surfaces and intermediate drawing buffers.
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20150627 03:01:11< shadowm> Apparently, for rendering on hardware we are supposed to use as few textures as possible in order to not hog up video RAM or clog up the graphics controller.
20150627 03:02:06< Yaiyan> I wonder how it's handled in other projects then
20150627 03:02:12< shadowm> So as it is performance is worse, is what I heard from the student.
20150627 03:02:13< Yaiyan> Surely wesnoth can't have been the first to hit that issue
20150627 03:02:20< shadowm> So the verdict is that we need to at least re-engineer the display code, the image caching API in order to move forward.
20150627 03:02:25< shadowm> *and the
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20150627 03:03:04< Yaiyan> Which isn't worth the effort for now, I suppose
20150627 03:03:06< shadowm> I think Wesnoth may be one of the few alive projects in this era that started using software rendering.
20150627 03:03:25< shadowm> And was subsequently engineered around software rendering.
20150627 03:04:16< shadowm> So, it is totally worth the effort. We can't hang on to SDL 1.2 forever, as you just saw how much limiting this is on modern operating environments.
20150627 03:04:43< shadowm> SDL 1.2 also doesn't receive even bug fixes anymore, so if it breaks on, say, the next OS X release, we are doomed.
20150627 03:05:19< shadowm> Rewriting all that crap would also be the perfect opportunity to fix some longstanding bugs and design inefficiencies.
20150627 03:05:56< shadowm> For example, there are a handful of undocumented display redraw methods and it's not immediately evident what the difference between each of them is, so they wind up misused by callers.
20150627 03:06:13< Yaiyan> I noticed there were some redraw issues
20150627 03:06:27< shadowm> The theme UI is also inexplicably soldered into the rest of the display engine.
20150627 03:06:39< shadowm> This is a Bad Thing™ by all means.
20150627 03:07:12< shadowm> The problem is getting someone to do it now that we are down to one active engine developer who doesn't do graphics stuff.
20150627 03:08:11< shadowm> There is someone else looking into retrofitting OpenGL support (again) without using SDL_gpu but I haven't heard back from them for a few days.
20150627 03:08:47< Yaiyan> That would be a far bigger change, surely
20150627 03:09:18< shadowm> So, that's the SDL 2 project's results in a nutshell.
20150627 03:09:26< Yaiyan> I see
20150627 03:09:57< Yaiyan> Thanks for updating me on all that, I definitely need to learn more about this stuff in general too
20150627 03:10:21< Yaiyan> I'm surprised there's so few developers now, but it seems to be affecting most open source games
20150627 03:12:07< shadowm> Wesnoth has been around since 2003. A lot has changed since then.
20150627 03:13:44< shadowm> I feel that the OSS ecosystem in general seems to be winding down and OSS games just fall faster because of the much more diverse skillset it takes to make and maintain a game.
20150627 03:14:14< Yaiyan> I also imagine steam for linux doesn't help
20150627 03:15:23< shadowm> It'd help if we could get there. :P
20150627 03:15:43< Yaiyan> I'm sure I remember you guys didn't want to be on steam before
20150627 03:15:50< Yaiyan> Or it may have just been license trouble, thinking about it
20150627 03:15:54< shadowm> But in our current shape (especially when it comes to OS X and high-DPI displays), publicizing us on Steam would do us a big disservice IMO.
20150627 03:17:00< Yaiyan> Wesnoth runs fine on OS X, to be honest
20150627 03:17:11< Yaiyan> I'm used to games having terrible fullscreen support on it
20150627 03:17:33< celticminstrel> Not that my opinion matters, but it runs fine for me on OSX too.3
20150627 03:17:48< celticminstrel> (I'm still on Lion.)
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20150627 03:19:30< Yaiyan> Honestly, I'd love to be able to help with the coding, but with the size of the codebase I have no clue where to start trying to understand what's going on
20150627 03:19:49< Yaiyan> Alongside most C++ I write being far more C-centric than is good for me and knowing none of STL :/
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20150627 03:20:37< Yaiyan> I see what you mean about high-DPI though, just installed it on my 1080p phone...
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20150627 03:22:45< shadowm> I can't even begin to imagine how it works with high-DPI displays.
20150627 03:23:07< shadowm> Every once in a while I come across screenshots (of whatever) taken on high-DPI environments and I'm like whaaaa?
20150627 03:23:24< shadowm> It's like reading someone describe a color that doesn't exist.
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20150627 03:23:35< shadowm> *can't be perceived by humans.
20150627 03:23:59< shadowm> Anyway, I started writing Cish C++ too.
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20150627 03:24:19< celticminstrel> I started right into C++ with no previous C background.
20150627 03:24:25< shadowm> It's not too hard to learn to use the standard library once you feel comfortable enough with the basics of C++, including templates.
20150627 03:24:43< celticminstrel> Actually, in general, the STL makes a whole lot of things easier.
20150627 03:24:49< shadowm> Mastering it all is a different question and you shouldn't worry about it.
20150627 03:25:01< celticminstrel> Heh, yes, definitely.
20150627 03:25:17< Yaiyan> I suppose - I bought a C++ book I'm still waiting to arrive that's 1300 pages
20150627 03:25:21< Yaiyan> Mastering that might take a while
20150627 03:25:25< shadowm> Also, what I did to jump into Wesnoth's codebase was to come up with a feature I wanted to add.
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20150627 03:26:14< shadowm> I searched for relevant UI strings, located the relevant code files, studied the interactions between code paths, and eventually got a working patch.
20150627 03:26:57< shadowm> Then I had to get the devs to merge two or three more iterations of the same patch.
20150627 03:27:06< Yaiyan> heh
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20150627 03:27:26< Yaiyan> That's one of the biggest things that keeps me from sharing my code
20150627 03:27:54< Yaiyan> I tried patching some java program recently, had to wipe my git 3 or 4 times and revise my code another 2 or 3 times before it was any good...
20150627 03:28:24< Yaiyan> And I'm definitely more comfortable in java than C++, but that's mostly being forced to write big programs in it already
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--- Log closed Sun Jun 28 00:00:38 2015