--- Log opened Sat Jul 25 00:00:03 2015
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20150725 00:02:48< aquileia> shadowm: Actually, the crash triggers as soon asI open the map editor (which the --screenshot option uses). http://pastebin.com/8epsFC0L
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20150725 00:03:37< aquileia> Didn't happen with my previous build one week ago (18.7.)
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20150725 00:04:02< shadowm> How curious.
20150725 00:04:36< shadowm> Might it be related to one of gfgtdf's changes?
20150725 00:06:41< aquileia> Have you tried opening the editor with a recent build?
20150725 00:07:15< shadowm> No, not really.
20150725 00:08:49< shadowm> Works for me, but I'm using Mingw. MSVC++ is more strict when it comes to certain STL functionality.
20150725 00:09:22< shadowm> My build is also slightly old (about two days).
20150725 00:11:27< aquileia> Well, I really need some sleep, so I'll probably look into it tomorrow; bye
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20150725 04:03:32< Yaiyan> If there's any python stuff, I can help out with that
20150725 04:03:45< Yaiyan> Still learning C++ right now, don't trust my abilities enough to work on the main codebase
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20150725 04:17:14< shadowm> wmllint and wmlindent are written in Python.
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20150725 05:06:24< ed__> hello
20150725 05:06:32< shadowm> Hi.
20150725 05:06:52< ed__> I heard you guys want to bring wesnoth to steam. That seems a great idea.
20150725 05:07:04< ed__> I want to help.
20150725 05:07:36< shadowm> We'd like to at a later time but we don't feel Wesnoth is in the best shape for that right now.
20150725 05:07:56< ed__> I got it. Low on staff.
20150725 05:08:06< shadowm> Yeah, exactly.
20150725 05:08:20< ed__> I started to get familiar with the code base.
20150725 05:08:47< ed__> I hope I will be able to get down to work in a week or two.
20150725 05:09:49< ed__> The project is complex though and I wonder where are the things that need people most.
20150725 05:09:52< shadowm> Cool. Is there anything in particular you'd like to see done?
20150725 05:11:03< shadowm> Well, as we mentioned in the Getting Started topic, there's the bug tracker (with a total of 743 open items right now), and the EasyCoding and NotSoEasyCoding pages.
20150725 05:11:04< ed__> I am interested in AI but I will start by fixing bugs.
20150725 05:11:35< ed__> Yes. Those. Great resources to help us help you.
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20150725 05:14:09< ed__> I was wondering how I can better use my efforts. Do you guys need more C++ devs or more python and lua for the high level features ?
20150725 05:15:58< shadowm> The game engine is written in C++ and it's not in a very good shape right now, so we'd like to have more C++ coders naturally. Not that improving our Python tools isn't important either, though.
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20150725 05:17:56< ed__> Ok. Then I'll start digging through the engine code. Thanks for the info. I hope we will manage to put the project back on track. 
20150725 05:18:12< kinow> not a c++ programmer but willing to help :) Used c and c++ in university and had to write some code for openam and iis... but I work mainly with java, php and python
20150725 05:18:27 * kinow is sifting through the issue tracking and documentation
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20150725 05:26:58< ancestral> shadowm: Do you want the announcement shared across social media or are you intending to control the delivery of the message?
20150725 05:27:36< shadowm> I want it delivered as far as it's humanly possible.
20150725 05:27:49< shadowm> In fact, if you have the resources, print a physical copy of it and send it to Pluto.
20150725 05:28:03< vultraz> Well we're a few years too late for that...
20150725 05:28:05< vultraz> :P
20150725 05:28:24< shadowm> We can still send another probe.
20150725 05:28:33< vultraz> Ask NASA
20150725 05:30:08< ancestral> Hey, we can be prepared if other entities probe us
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20150725 05:45:51< romanko> Hi, I read the post about maintainers of some mailnline campaigns are needed. I would like to help although I am not skilled WML coder...
20150725 05:46:41< vultraz> any one in mind?
20150725 05:47:34< romanko> Rise of Wesnoth for instance
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20150725 05:48:58< romanko> But I don't care in particular, like them all
20150725 05:52:32< vultraz> DO you have experience with using git?
20150725 06:00:57< romanko> yes
20150725 06:03:37< vultraz> Well, just clone the repo and pick an unmaintained campaign
20150725 06:03:53< vultraz> The first thing to do would be to look through it to see if there's any obviously bad WML
20150725 06:04:06< vultraz> such as, using macros to duplicate code when [event]s could be used instead
20150725 06:04:38< vultraz> Do some cleanup, and then submit your changes as a pull request
20150725 06:07:42-!- timotei [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150725 06:14:04< c74d> (a GitHub pull request)
20150725 06:14:13< c74d> romanko: (see also: <http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothRepository>)
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20150725 06:16:18< cendrieR> hi
20150725 06:16:28< ed__> hello
20150725 06:16:54< c74d> Hello.
20150725 06:18:37< vultraz> hello
20150725 06:21:47-!- Rastus_Vernon [~rvernon@wikimedia/Rastus-Vernon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 06:22:03< ancestral> I’ve done my duty
20150725 06:22:19< ancestral> https://news.ycombinator.com/news
20150725 06:22:20-!- timotei [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 06:23:37< cendrieR> that's why I'm here :D
20150725 06:24:22< ancestral> Welcome cendrieR :)
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20150725 06:26:04< Rastus_Vernon> That's why I'm here too, of course.
20150725 06:27:20< vultraz> :D
20150725 06:27:33< vultraz> glad to see such an enthusiastic response 
20150725 06:27:37< romanko> What  everything is generally considered as "bad WML" ? 
20150725 06:29:27< vultraz> romanko: well, mostly stuff that could obviously be done in a simpler way. For example overuse of macros when  [event]s could be used, or using [if] where you could use [filter_condition].
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20150725 06:45:50< romanko> Does somebody know the name pango cairo package in Ubuntu?
20150725 06:46:44< c74d> DDR: ^ ?
20150725 06:46:54< DDR> mm?
20150725 06:47:04< DDR> umm... hm.
20150725 06:47:16< shadowm> romanko: `sudo apt-get build-dep wesnoth` will pull it, amongst other things we need.
20150725 06:47:44< c74d> DDR: you're the only Ubuntu user I know of who's around :p
20150725 06:48:06< shadowm> That is, *if* you have source repositories enabled in your package manager configuration.
20150725 06:48:09< DDR> perhaps libpangocairo-1.0.0 ?
20150725 06:48:36< romanko> hm
20150725 06:48:38< c74d> (not counting vultraz)
20150725 06:48:54< DDR> I've got that installed, but I don't know if it's actually what you're looking for.
20150725 06:49:04< romanko> I currently installed libcogl-pango-dev
20150725 06:49:20< romanko> and scons is happy
20150725 06:49:38< c74d> ...oh, right, my IRC system is Ubuntu. >_>
20150725 06:49:47< shadowm> Yeah, that's not what you need but it pulls libpango1.0-dev anyway.
20150725 06:49:52< c74d> I'm an active Ubuntu user and I forgot. <_<
20150725 06:49:53< DDR> That is good. Building, especially Wesnoth, is really not my specialty. :p
20150725 06:50:03< c74d> DDR: apologies
20150725 06:50:11< DDR> Oh, no worries. :)
20150725 06:50:38< DDR> I am a more, ahem, active user.
20150725 06:53:30< DDR> miiiight want libsdl-pango-dev?
20150725 06:53:49< shadowm> That's not a Wesnoth dependency, no.
20150725 06:54:09< DDR> I retract my previous statement.
20150725 06:54:50< shadowm> As I said, it's usually enough with `apt-get build-dep wesnoth` if you have source repositories enabled.
20150725 06:55:50< shadowm> That's pull all the -dev packages required to build the latest version of Wesnoth provided by your distribution. Compared to 1.12.x, 1.13.x additionally requires libboost-random-dev and benefits from having libreadline-dev installed.
20150725 06:55:54< shadowm> *That'll
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20150725 07:10:12< ancestral> Say, what’s the difference between wesnoth-1.12.4-win32.exe and wesnoth-1.12.4a-win32.exe? Was someone supposed to remove the non-“a” from SF, because I see both available for download
20150725 07:10:12< shadowm> Oh yes, I was.
20150725 07:10:14< c74d> ugh, you're still on SF
20150725 07:10:24< ancestral> Haha, I was waiting for someone to say that
20150725 07:10:39< shadowm> I'm sorry GitHub's releases platform is a toddler's toy, c74d.
20150725 07:10:52 * c74d reconsiders unretiring.
20150725 07:11:07< shadowm> I can't delete the file and I got a nonsense error from FRS.
20150725 07:11:20< DDR> the heck did we make the top of HN? https://news.ycombinator.com/
20150725 07:11:25< shadowm> In fact, it might be for the best since now that I remember SF.net is having some difficulties.
20150725 07:12:55< aspy> DDR, yup. I cam here from HN :)
20150725 07:13:00< aspy> *came
20150725 07:13:20< DDR> Sweet. :)
20150725 07:13:25< DDR> Hello!
20150725 07:13:50< c74d> Your issues with GitHub Releases was that its GUI is annoying and the Fastly servers don't send HTTP Content-Length headers?
20150725 07:13:57< c74d> s/was/were/
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20150725 07:14:58< shadowm> I don't know which servers choose not to specify the download's length but yes, that plus the lack of an officially sanctioned command-line upload tool and/or tar.xz trees support.
20150725 07:15:06< shadowm> I mean tar.bz2 but tar.xz would be good too.
20150725 07:15:21< c74d> Fastly is the CDN that serves the downloads.
20150725 07:15:41< c74d> What was the problem with having packagers put their packages in their own Google Drive accounts?
20150725 07:16:23< shadowm> The question alone is a problem.
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20150725 07:17:32< c74d> You mean "stop asking about the release hosting"?
20150725 07:17:47-!- ed__ [4f72a7c6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.114.167.198] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 07:18:08< shadowm> I don't have the time or energy to read Google's terms of service or convince our packagers to create accounts on a service which I don't have any evidence suggesting they already use.
20150725 07:18:53< shadowm> Furthermore, it doesn't solve the part where I need to be able to upload the source tarball using rsync from a server.
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20150725 07:22:00< c74d> Google's terms of service are fairly short (except for Google Wallet/Google Payments); I've read them.
20150725 07:22:22< shadowm> I imagine you have. ¬_¬
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20150725 07:23:32< shadowm> What I'm concerned about is any wording that would forbid using the service in a CDN-like fashion.
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20150725 07:24:06< shadowm> It's not just about the wording either. Technical restrictions are important to keep in mind too.
20150725 07:25:52< c74d> There is no such wording: <https://support.google.com/drive/answer/148505>.
20150725 07:25:53< shadowm> I already pointed this out the other day. 1.12.4 was downloaded a number of times the first week amounting to several hundred GiB.
20150725 07:27:03< c74d> I don't think I was around that other day. Other projects use Google Drive for this. They don't mention bandwidth limits, but I wouldn't say that means there are none.
20150725 07:28:06< c74d> Hosting files in Dropbox could also work, though I trust them less than Google and I would expect them to have significantly less bandwidth than Google.
20150725 07:28:31< c74d> (And I don't know about their terms of service.)
20150725 07:28:46< shadowm> I think I've read people say Dropbox has disabled accounts in the past for excessive bandwidth usage.
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20150725 07:29:33< mulander> what about fosshub.com, that seems to be gaining some ground
20150725 07:30:10< mulander> and some large projects like audacity already moved there
20150725 07:33:21< c74d> It serves downloads over unsecured HTTP, so I see little if any improvement over SF FRS.
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20150725 07:38:54< loonycyborg> we could always make our own based on amazon s3 or something :P
20150725 07:39:17< shadowm> Yeah, but someone has to set it up.
20150725 07:40:04< c74d> And pay for it.
20150725 07:40:25< c74d> <https://copy.com> gives an explicit bandwidth limit of "40GB per day" for free accounts.
20150725 07:40:26< shadowm> Dave was willing to pay for whatever we deemed necessary.
20150725 07:40:31< loonycyborg> paying part is handled by our org
20150725 07:40:49< DDR> I'm getting there, but I'm no sysadmin yet.
20150725 07:41:15< DDR> (Today, I fixed myself being logged on twice to my machine whenever I logged in once. :p )
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20150725 07:43:52< c74d> Google Cloud Storage can be interfaced with via the command-line.
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20150725 07:44:41< loonycyborg> what are our requirements as I see them is 1. geographically distributed hosting, 2. flexibility in the way you can upload there, 3. being simple from user's point of view
20150725 07:45:00< Rastus_Vernon> and 4. checksums so that trusting the host is not necessary
20150725 07:45:17< shadowm> (1) really should be "unlimited or reasonably ridiculously lax bandwidht limits".
20150725 07:45:21< shadowm> *bandwidth
20150725 07:45:22< loonycyborg> that is be a simple link not some magic mumbo jumbo that inserts proxy web pages with complex links like sf
20150725 07:45:24< c74d> (including via an rsync)
20150725 07:45:51< loonycyborg> 4. be able to handle astornomic number of downloaders
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20150725 07:46:42< legoktm> hello!
20150725 07:46:48< loonycyborg> And I'm sure all "personal" file storage options would have problem with 4.
20150725 07:46:50< loonycyborg> hi
20150725 07:46:56< shadowm> We are talking of thousands of clients downloading one ~400 MiB file each every day.
20150725 07:47:12< c74d> For how many days per month?
20150725 07:47:31< shadowm> 24/7.
20150725 07:47:36< legoktm> I started looking around the git repo, and found: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/68dfe27bbddd66d56eb160f8f19eb2d0600a4968/utils/mediawiki.py. It looks pretty old and is screenscraping instead of using the MediaWiki API...I was going to re-write it, except I can't find anything that actually uses it?
20150725 07:47:48< shadowm> c74d: Can you see this page? https://sourceforge.net/projects/wesnoth/files/stats/timeline
20150725 07:48:03< c74d> How many thous-- yes.
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20150725 07:48:54< shadowm> legoktm: I didn't even realize it existed, and for all I know it might predate the addition of this MW API.
20150725 07:49:03< Rastus_Vernon> What is not working at the moment with SourceForge?
20150725 07:49:50< shadowm> We don't really need to read from our MW installation anyway so there isn't much point to using either that or the API (which I've kept disabled for that reason).
20150725 07:50:09< c74d> Rastus_Vernon: HTTPS downloads, and there's the possibility that they might start injecting their adware into BfW packages.
20150725 07:50:16< legoktm> shadowm: should the file be deleted then?
20150725 07:50:16< shadowm> Rastus_Vernon: You mean as in right now, or in the long term?
20150725 07:50:46< shadowm> legoktm: Probably. Maybe. /utils is kind of our personal junkyard right now. :p
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20150725 07:51:26< legoktm> I'm fairly sure the login code at least won't work, the editing part just might :/
20150725 07:52:13< Rastus_Vernon> shadowm: Right now
20150725 07:52:17< Rastus_Vernon> I'm aware of the long term issues
20150725 07:52:28< shadowm> The only scripts from there that are regularly used are the travis/ and mp-server/ stuff, pofix.py, and wesnoth-optipng (+compare_images.py).
20150725 07:52:57< shadowm> Oh, and wesnoth-defaults. At least *I* use it. It didn't seem to catch on with other developers but it's an essential part of the release process.
20150725 07:53:16< shadowm> And wmlxgettext, can't forget wmlxgettext.
20150725 07:54:00< c74d> I'm seeing a spike up to 1155 downloads on the day of the last release. Maybe 800_000 MiB/day as an upper limit?
20150725 07:54:06-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@f048034000.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 07:54:19< shadowm> Rastus_Vernon: They had a bad thing happen the other day and have been busy fixing things since then: https://sourceforge.net/blog/
20150725 07:55:17-!- lipkab [~lipkab@host-91-147-210-193.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 07:56:42< shadowm> c74d: We ought to be prepared for link explosions.
20150725 07:57:03< shadowm> Imagine if one day we made it to reddit's front page or something like that.
20150725 07:57:27< shadowm> (Well, wesnoth.org would die a painful death, I know that much.)
20150725 07:58:16< loonycyborg> I always had one problem with frs: that intermediate web page it shows
20150725 07:58:23< loonycyborg> I'd prefer direct links
20150725 07:58:31< Emufarmers> shadowm: MediaWiki's API has been around for a very long time. You should enable it
20150725 07:58:33< Emufarmers> Also, hi :>
20150725 07:58:52< ed__> does anyone know the name of the cfg file from which I can start the game in a specific resolution ?
20150725 07:59:39< shadowm> Emufarmers: I am willing to consider the possibility if you people can tell me what the actual prupose would be. :)
20150725 07:59:49< c74d> At 2000 downloads/day, if half were from the Americas, Europe, and Africa and half were from mainland China (which costs more), Wesnoth Inc. would be paying 140 USD/day for Google Cloud Storage, which I doubt it could take.
20150725 08:00:05< shadowm> ed__: You can either edit the preferences file or use `-r 800x480` (for example) in the command line.
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20150725 08:00:36< shadowm> The location of the preferences file varies by platform and build configuration: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EditingWesnoth#The_user_data_directory
20150725 08:00:53< ed__> thank you 
20150725 08:01:38< legoktm> shadowm: well, at the very least there would be some statistics on https://wikiapiary.com/wiki/Wesnoth (wikiapiary is a site that tracks MediaWiki installs). 
20150725 08:01:52< legoktm> and I submitted https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/420 to remove mediawiki.py :)
20150725 08:03:20< shadowm> You could remind me at a later time to look into the API stuff (yes I know how to enable it, I just want to know how much info is exposed and how).
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20150725 08:03:37< legoktm> sure
20150725 08:03:57< legoktm> generally MW shouldn't expose anything more than what is already accessible via the web UI
20150725 08:04:37< c74d> Amazon S3 would be from 72 USD/day to 200 USD/day, depending on what exactly they mean by "Region".
20150725 08:04:59< c74d> I'm thinking Wesnoth Inc. doesn't have the money for either?
20150725 08:05:29< c74d> (surely the mobile apps aren't selling *that* well?)
20150725 08:05:37< c74d> (...meaning no insult)
20150725 08:05:56< shadowm> c74d: You'd have to ask Dave.
20150725 08:06:27< shadowm> But do note that I've never used that service and I'd need some hand-holding.
20150725 08:06:48< shadowm> Wesnoth is based in the U.S. if it helps you decide exactly how much it costs.
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20150725 08:10:48< irker547> wesnoth: Kunal Mehta wesnoth:master 51fb515def3e / utils/mediawiki.py: Remove outdated and likely broken utils/mediawiki.py http://git.io/vY0lr
20150725 08:10:49< irker547> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth:master 116991f61895 / utils/mediawiki.py: Merge pull request #420 from legoktm/rm-mw http://git.io/vY0lo
20150725 08:11:08< legoktm> \o/
20150725 08:11:22< vultraz> :)
20150725 08:12:07< shadowm> (Note that it's much more efficient for us to handle these tiny changes directly without using PRs.)
20150725 08:12:57< vultraz> However, it's great we're getting PRs mere hours after the call for help went out
20150725 08:13:12< shadowm> (Okay, not necessarily *that much*, just a teeny tiny bit more efficient.)
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20150725 08:13:57< shadowm> That reminds me...
20150725 08:14:13< shadowm> zookeeper: I'll look at your PR again later, I'm sure you've noticed I've been busy with other stuff. <_<
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20150725 08:20:35< loonycyborg> we could just use actual cdn
20150725 08:20:46< loonycyborg> http://aws.amazon.com/cloudfront/details/
20150725 08:21:14< loonycyborg> this one for example as it seems allows us to host original file say on wesnoth.org
20150725 08:22:52-!- romanko [59ad723d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.173.114.61] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20150725 08:23:38< shadowm> "Pay only for the data transfer and requests that you actually use."
20150725 08:23:44< shadowm> How much would that be...? :p
20150725 08:23:47< loonycyborg> http://aws.amazon.com/cloudfront/pricing/
20150725 08:24:31< loonycyborg> 10,000 requests cost 0.0075 in US etc?
20150725 08:25:14-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 08:25:49< vultraz> We could crownfund and host our own dlserver?
20150725 08:26:20< loonycyborg> we already have baldras :P
20150725 08:27:04< shadowm> Yes, but as I said before baldras isn't an optimal solution and has problems of its own.
20150725 08:27:37< shadowm> I am willing to use it as a fallback in things go south, but that means users will have to deal with unreliable downloads between 00:00 and 14:00 UTC-04 pretty much every day.
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20150725 08:27:47< shadowm> Emphasis on unreliable.
20150725 08:28:16< shadowm> Also, the extra bandwidth usage may cause us to hit our traffic quota.
20150725 08:28:26< shadowm> *extra traffic may
20150725 08:28:56< shadowm> And the extra bandwidth usage will degrade our other services' experience (think wesnothd and campaignd and the forums in particular).
20150725 08:29:16< zookeeper> shadowm, yeah, sure
20150725 08:30:10< shadowm> Wow, ancestral, seriously.
20150725 08:30:17< loonycyborg> I think optimal solution is to host orgininal downloads on wesnoth.org and distribute them via CDN. Most people will download via CDN
20150725 08:30:32< loonycyborg> yet you control wesnoth org and can upload any way you wish
20150725 08:30:37< shadowm> Reporting a spam post instead of moving it.
20150725 08:30:44< loonycyborg> CDN can fetch from there automatically
20150725 08:31:15-!- Krikey_Sanchez [~spacecake@204.28.118.156] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 08:31:16< shadowm> That sounds good to me but can we really justify the extra expenses?
20150725 08:31:29< shadowm> If so, go talk to Dave about it. :p
20150725 08:31:40< Krikey_Sanchez> so I saw the thing on the front page
20150725 08:31:40< vultraz> Crowdfund!
20150725 08:31:45< Krikey_Sanchez> I write C++ professionally
20150725 08:31:50< vultraz> We could get money for art too!
20150725 08:31:53< Krikey_Sanchez> and I played wesnoth a few years ago and enjoyed it
20150725 08:32:00< vultraz> Krikey_Sanchez: ah, welcome!
20150725 08:32:02< vultraz> :D
20150725 08:32:03< shadowm> Hi there!
20150725 08:32:25< Krikey_Sanchez> I've never participated in an open-source project in any meaningful way, though
20150725 08:32:34< Krikey_Sanchez> I don't know how you guys do, like, governance and assigning who does what work
20150725 08:33:04< Krikey_Sanchez> also I don't know what kind of time commitments you'd want from contributors, writing C++ professionally implies that I have a full-time job :)
20150725 08:33:14< shadowm> It varies from project to project. This is easily the least organized open source project with a reasonably large LoC count.
20150725 08:34:19< Krikey_Sanchez> okay so there's a bug tracker
20150725 08:35:07< shadowm> We don't enforce any specific time frames for working on bugs or features, most of the time at least. We generally have reasonably lenient delays between development releases, like one or two months between each other -- except when we are nearing a new stable release series, then we may have releases done every two weeks.
20150725 08:35:43< diracdelta> Is the github repo the preferred one for submitting patches via pull requests?
20150725 08:36:04< shadowm> Yes. It's also the only one that exists AFAIK.
20150725 08:36:15< shadowm> I hope.
20150725 08:36:27< Krikey_Sanchez> ah so you're the lead maintainer
20150725 08:36:40< Krikey_Sanchez> I've never used WML before, is that a wesnoth-specific tool?
20150725 08:36:47-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20150725 08:38:00< shadowm> It's our homegrown data description language (think XML), which we also use for scripting.
20150725 08:38:05< zookeeper> yes, WML is the language all of the content (campaigns, units, etc etc) is written in
20150725 08:38:43< zookeeper> i think the most important commitment would be to finish what you start (at least once the code starts hitting the main repo), so that we don't end up with some major project that's kinda halfway done but with the original coder gone and no one else able to finish it.
20150725 08:38:50< zookeeper> (that's happened before)
20150725 08:38:56< Krikey_Sanchez> hm, C++98
20150725 08:39:08-!- diracdelta [d8f325cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.243.37.204] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20150725 08:39:16< shadowm> A lot of times, and not just with new contributors
20150725 08:39:18< Krikey_Sanchez> I don't actually know what things C++11 introduced, other than lambdas
20150725 08:39:23< Krikey_Sanchez> or was it 14 that introduced lambdas?
20150725 08:39:41< sorin_> It was introduced in c++11
20150725 08:40:17< sorin_> Why c++98?
20150725 08:40:43< shadowm> Lambdas, range-based for, r-value references, nullptr values, various library additions, and other stuff I don't remember right now.
20150725 08:40:55< shadowm> Initializer lists, too.
20150725 08:41:10< sorin_> varidiac templates
20150725 08:41:23< shadowm> I mean, the uniform initialization syntax.
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20150725 08:43:33< Krikey_Sanchez> what's hte most authoritative store of wesnoth source code?
20150725 08:44:09< shadowm> The Wesnoth Git repository at GitHub <https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth>, as explained in our <http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothRepository> page.
20150725 08:45:24< loonycyborg> shadowm: Can you estimate how much worth of data per month of wesnoth releases is downloaded by users from sourceforge?
20150725 08:46:10< c74d> loonycyborg: <http://sourceforge.net/projects/wesnoth/files/stats/timeline?dates=2015-06-25+to+2015-07-25>
20150725 08:46:14< shadowm> loonycyborg: https://sourceforge.net/projects/wesnoth/files/stats/timeline?dates=2015-06-01+to+2015-07-01 -- 22,761 downloads.
20150725 08:46:47< c74d> ...do you get HTTPS because you're signed in, or...?
20150725 08:47:06< shadowm> 2014-01-01 through 2014-02-01: 33,326 downloads.
20150725 08:47:33< shadowm> 2013, same month: 45,535 downloads.
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20150725 08:47:50< shadowm> 2012, same month, 69,031 downloads.
20150725 08:47:57< UnwiseOwl> A pattern emerges.
20150725 08:48:36< shadowm> 2009, same month, 137,686 downloads.
20150725 08:48:52< shadowm> (There's no daily breakdown for that year, though.)
20150725 08:49:18< shadowm> (The 2010-01 stats also make no sense.)
20150725 08:50:08< shadowm> Now, if we take months where a new stable series was announced, for 2014-11 (1.12) we have 38,315 downloads.
20150725 08:51:21< shadowm> For 2012-01/02 (1.10), 92,577.
20150725 08:51:28< loonycyborg> shadowm: number of downloads tell me little
20150725 08:51:34< loonycyborg> by themselves
20150725 08:51:47< shadowm> Oh come on, look at 1.12.4's file listing and average file sizes or something. ¬_¬
20150725 08:52:05< shadowm> You are asking too much from me, I barely know how to count.
20150725 08:52:14< loonycyborg> but me too qQ
20150725 08:52:25< mulander> >8TB per month
20150725 08:52:57< shadowm> 2010-03/04 (1.8), 102,066.
20150725 08:52:59< c74d> loonycyborg: so at shadowm's previous ~400 MiB/download figure, that 38,315 download figure would mean that, using that AWS CDN, the 1.12 release month would have cost Wesnoth Inc. ~43 USD/day.
20150725 08:53:41< shadowm> 2009-03/04 (1.6), 155,903 downloads.
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20150725 08:53:57< c74d> Oh, but I think that's if all the downloaders were in the US or Europe. It would be still more expensive if they were in other places.
20150725 08:54:19< shadowm> 2008-03/04 (1.4), 192,222 downloads.
20150725 08:55:12< shadowm> 2006-12/2007-01 (1.2), 178,068.
20150725 08:56:02< shadowm> 2005-10 (1.0), 82,027.
20150725 08:56:13< loonycyborg> why you tell prices per day?
20150725 08:56:14< shadowm> So interestingly enough, 1.4 appears to have attracted the most downloads.
20150725 08:56:23< c74d> To afford that, you'd need to be selling ~11 iPhone apps per day.
20150725 08:56:33< shadowm> Instead of, say, 1.0.
20150725 08:56:38< loonycyborg> it bills per month
20150725 08:56:39< UnwiseOwl> 1.4 was when the cool kids started playing :)
20150725 08:56:41< c74d> s/iPhone/iOS/
20150725 08:56:58< c74d> According to Sirp, you're selling ~16 iOS apps per day "in a good month".
20150725 08:57:08< c74d> I don't know about the other months, though.
20150725 08:57:33< loonycyborg> assuming 8TB per month it would cost 680$ per month
20150725 08:57:41< loonycyborg> from use
20150725 08:57:42< loonycyborg> us
20150725 08:57:44-!- Anticipation [0e0252b9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.14.2.82.185] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 08:57:46< c74d> (Is the Android app also a revenue source?)
20150725 08:58:30< loonycyborg> and 2000$ per month from south america
20150725 08:58:32< shadowm> Isn't it free now?
20150725 08:58:41< shadowm> As in gratis, I mean.
20150725 08:58:44< loonycyborg> so something between those two based on geographical distribution
20150725 08:59:11< Anticipation> Hey, I'm busy so I can't do anything just right now ut I saw the call for help on twitter and the forums and I'm keen to lend a hand however I can in either C++ or Python.
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20150725 08:59:39< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#6818 (master - 116991f : Ignacio R. Morelle): The build has errored.
20150725 08:59:39< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/72573889
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20150725 09:06:45< Emufarmers> Hmm, Wesnoth doesn't take donations?
20150725 09:07:47< xpolak_> Hello everyone. I just saw your announcement about the need for help, and I’d like to offer some manpower. However as a webdeveloper mainly, I’m not sure where I could be useful. Any ideas? I’m a fullstack JS developer, and I also do Ruby.
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20150725 09:19:35< Elvish_Hunter> Hi all
20150725 09:19:50-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 09:20:05< vultraz> hey Elvish_Hunter 
20150725 09:20:59< lipkab> Hi Elvish_Hunter
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20150725 09:25:19< cendrieR> Have to go but I'll come back later, to see where I can help with some python
20150725 09:25:21< cendrieR> bye :)
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20150725 09:27:22< Elvish_Hunter> I'm translating the call for help in Italian. As soon as I finished, I'll post the link
20150725 09:28:33< vultraz> Great :)
20150725 09:35:01< vifon> Hello. I've been interested in contributing to Wesnoth for quite some time. I guess it's just the right moment to do so at last. I'm a C++ developer with some experience in working with the big codebases (for instance Webkit), I know Python too. I've been looking through the EasyCoding but it's still pretty confusing where to start. It would be great if someone could give me some more pointers.
20150725 09:35:12-!- timotei_ [~timotei@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20150725 09:35:38< Elvish_Hunter> Done: http://wif.altervista.org/index.php/topic,3081.msg41104.html
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20150725 09:39:42< vultraz> vifon: glad you want to contribute :) first you should probably browse or clone our git repo 
20150725 09:39:52< Anticipation> For the people here encouraged to come here via the post on twitter or the forums, there's an extra post here about how to get started helping out :) http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42911
20150725 09:41:01< Elvish_Hunter> vifon: regrading Python, our maintnance tools (wmllint, wmlscope and wmlindent) are written in this language
20150725 09:41:02< vultraz> vifon: and read that post too, I forgot that people might miss it
20150725 09:41:22< vifon> I'm on it. :)
20150725 09:41:39< Elvish_Hunter> There's also trackplacer, which is a tool that allows placing the "journey dots" on the map in a graphical way
20150725 09:41:51< vultraz> shadowm: do you think the DD Getting Started post needs to be more prominent?
20150725 09:41:54-!- lilroo [1f994fc0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.153.79.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150725 09:42:05< Elvish_Hunter> However, trackplacer is in bad shape right now - it doesn't run on Windows, for instance
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20150725 09:42:35< vultraz> oh, actually, I know what to do
20150725 09:42:51< Elvish_Hunter> ANd there's also the graphical front-end for wmllint/scope/indent, called GUI.pyw, which I made ;-)
20150725 09:43:10-!- vultraz changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Wesnoth Developers Channel | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Quickstart guide to contributing: http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911
20150725 09:43:28< vultraz> There, now it's prominent 
20150725 09:43:50< vifon> Good idea.
20150725 09:46:41< zookeeper> Emufarmers, yeah, we haven't really sought individual donations.
20150725 09:48:14< zookeeper> Emufarmers, i'm not sure though whether there's any particular legal/technical reason why we'd refuse.
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20150725 10:09:39< Kepakiano> Hey guys, the coding standards confuse me a little bit. It's first said, that C++11 is not allowed but a few lines below the author talks about destructors in C++11? :( 
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20150725 10:10:17< loonycyborg> Kepakiano: It's allowed within #ifdefs I guess
20150725 10:10:44< loonycyborg> there is currently some C++11 specific code but it's guarded by appropriate #ifdefs
20150725 10:11:05< Kepakiano> ah, ok, that seems reasonable, thanks
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20150725 10:14:29< genbattle> hey, just so you guys know, someone posted your call for help to https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/
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20150725 10:15:17< Kepakiano> and it's #1 on HN
20150725 10:16:10< genbattle> I swung by as per the blog post because I have some Python and C++ experience, but I've never played wesnoth before (but I have heard of it)
20150725 10:16:21< Anticipation> Vultraz, good idea putting it up there. I had to look around for a bit to find it myself :) And I'm sure you guys get sick of people popping in here every 15 minutes asking the same thing.
20150725 10:17:41< Anticipation> genbattle, hey you should probably delete and post again with a link to the actual blog post and not just wesnoth.org :)
20150725 10:18:51< Elvish_Hunter> genbattle: then start playing ;-) It's by playing, or by maintaining an add-on, that sometimes one gets the ideas to implement
20150725 10:19:43< Elvish_Hunter> Also, playtesting is useful to intercept bugs so that they can be fixed
20150725 10:20:02< jbnicolai> Howmany active players are there?
20150725 10:20:12< genbattle> Anticipation, I didn't post it, but that's a good idea
20150725 10:20:53-!- jbnicolai [4dfac831@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.250.200.49] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20150725 10:21:16< genbattle> Elvish_Hunter, It's a bit late in the night here to fire it up now, but I promise to invest some time tomorrow in setting up and playing the game, and having a look at the bug tracker
20150725 10:21:26< Elvish_Hunter> jbnicolai: are you talking about MP? Because there are also single player campaigns, and for them we don't have statistics
20150725 10:21:37-!- a_ [4f16bb84@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.22.187.132] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 10:21:39< Kepakiano> genbattle: start cloning the repo and let it run over night :D
20150725 10:21:53< Elvish_Hunter> For example, I don't do MP, but when I have time I like to play a campaign
20150725 10:22:01< vifon> Yeah, the repo is huge. :/
20150725 10:22:25< genbattle> Kepakiano, how big is the repo 0_o
20150725 10:22:44< Kepakiano> I'm at 33% and have 1.39 GiB
20150725 10:22:45< vifon> Receiving objects:  26% (233438/874395), 1.18 GiB | 412.00 KiB/s
20150725 10:22:50< Kepakiano> ^^
20150725 10:23:02< Kepakiano> connection to github is slow, though :/
20150725 10:23:11< vifon> I've had it on my old laptop and realized I don't have it anymore only when vultraz pointed it out.
20150725 10:23:48< vultraz> it's about 2 to 2.5 G B
20150725 10:26:04< Kepakiano> isn't the statement "C++11 is not widely supported" on the codingstyle page a little outdated?  :D using C++11 makes a lot of things a lot easier :S
20150725 10:26:05< genbattle> oh ok, that's not as bad as I thought
20150725 10:26:32< vultraz> Kepakiano: I think we would like to transition to C++11
20150725 10:26:45< genbattle> with VS2015 and GCC 5.1+ it's certainly a lot better than it was
20150725 10:26:47< vultraz> but certain debian support has prevented us until now
20150725 10:27:05< Kepakiano> oh, ok
20150725 10:27:12-!- sorin_ [~sorinm@79.114.29.73] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20150725 10:27:56< vifon> Yeah, the release of Jessie made a lot of things easier...
20150725 10:29:26< Anticipation> genbattle, oh whoops, I thought it was you nevermind.
20150725 10:30:23-!- weeska [5849af62@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.73.175.98] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 10:30:39< genbattle> Anticipation, how do you link directly to that blog post anyway...
20150725 10:31:10< mulander> genbattle: link to http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=42912
20150725 10:31:26< genbattle> yea I'm suggesting that on the comments for the curent link on reddit
20150725 10:31:53< genbattle> easier to post a comment and hope it gets upvoted or mods change the link in the item
20150725 10:31:58-!- AlexDenisov [~AlexDenis@2a02:8109:8380:1dc4:1db:63de:5693:95a4] has quit [Quit: (null)]
20150725 10:32:45< Anticipation> genbattle, DID you know that mods on Reddit actually can't edit the link title or address? There's very little they can do in the case of mistakes.
20150725 10:33:24-!- joet [~joet@host86-152-153-248.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 10:33:26< genbattle> hmmmm, guess the comment will have to do
20150725 10:33:44< genbattle> guess you guys won't be posting any new news posts in the next 24 hours or so :P
20150725 10:33:44-!- weeska [5849af62@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.73.175.98] has quit [Client Quit]
20150725 10:34:06< genbattle> that item seems to be getting a lot of upvotes (although the score isn't showing for me yet)
20150725 10:35:35< genbattle> Maybe i'll try submitting the forum post
20150725 10:36:09< genbattle> what should the title be?
20150725 10:36:32-!- strykerkkd [5e155db5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.21.93.181] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20150725 10:38:55< genbattle> done
20150725 10:39:15-!- Anticipation [0e0252b9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.14.2.82.185] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
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20150725 10:40:56< Yaiyan> Poor website
20150725 10:41:02< Yaiyan> Not handling the traffic well
20150725 10:41:15< Pforce> heh
20150725 10:41:22< vultraz> Good sign, that :D
20150725 10:41:29< vultraz> Lot of interested parties!
20150725 10:41:35< Pforce> so, no github/bibucket repo?
20150725 10:41:43< Pforce> could take a peek at issues etc.
20150725 10:42:14< Pforce> Yaiyan: maybe make a pastebin of whatever is in this http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911
20150725 10:42:28< joet> pforce I found it http://gna.org/projects/wesnoth/ https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth
20150725 10:42:30< Yaiyan> If I could actually load the page again :3
20150725 10:42:35< vultraz> Pforce: our github repo is here https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/ , however our bug tracker is here: http://bugs.wesnoth.org/
20150725 10:42:50< vultraz> (which redirects to the gna page joet just linked)
20150725 10:43:10< Pforce> if you can edit the blog post that is on reddit, i would put those direct links there :)
20150725 10:43:54-!- willk [a801062a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.168.1.6.42] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20150725 10:45:49< Pforce> do you work in feature branches in forks or whats your system
20150725 10:46:07-!- wedge009 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 10:46:49< Elvish_Hunter> Pforce: if one doesn't yet have write acces, he forks the repo in his own, then creates a pull request
20150725 10:47:11< Pforce> yeh
20150725 10:47:23< Pforce> so not a lot of windows guys among you? :)
20150725 10:47:32< vultraz> I'm on windows
20150725 10:47:36< willk> Yo, just came from r/programming - depends on the toolchain
20150725 10:47:44< Elvish_Hunter> In my case, since I have write access, I directly push small patches, and do pull request for the most important ones
20150725 10:47:46< willk> Windows is fine, just hate MSVC...
20150725 10:47:47< Pforce> i mainly work on windows, have worked on a moderately sized C++ client/server project
20150725 10:47:56< Pforce> https://github.com/realXtend/tundra
20150725 10:47:59< Pforce> for about 6 years
20150725 10:48:04< Elvish_Hunter> No, we don't have any Windows devs
20150725 10:48:16< Elvish_Hunter> *many, not any
20150725 10:48:20< Pforce> was the windows build master guy and in general progressed the windows stuff
20150725 10:48:26< Pforce> like supporting new VC versions
20150725 10:48:34< Pforce> we only got to 2010 ;)
20150725 10:48:39< Pforce> do you use c++11?
20150725 10:48:49< Elvish_Hunter> No, we use C++03
20150725 10:49:26< Pforce> im very familiar with cmake, seems like you use that
20150725 10:49:34< Kepakiano> yay, cmake \o/
20150725 10:49:35< vultraz> We would like to use C++11 though
20150725 10:49:48< Elvish_Hunter> Actually, our preferred compilation method is scons
20150725 10:50:17< Pforce> havent used scons myself, i know of it
20150725 10:50:31< Pforce> so you have 2 side by side build systems? :P
20150725 10:50:43< Pforce> im guessing the cmake is lacking behind as well? :)
20150725 10:50:47< willk> From experience, C++11 with microsoft compilers is... not great
20150725 10:51:14< Kepakiano> willk: yeah, had great trouble porting a project to VC++, because I was using constexpr a lot >.<
20150725 10:51:15< Pforce> well, you can restrict yourself to a reasonable subset of c++11 features
20150725 10:51:23< Pforce> then you are good with >= 2010
20150725 10:51:31< Elvish_Hunter> Pforce: yeah, I remember that there was some issue with cmake
20150725 10:51:40< Pforce> auto, for loop, simple but helpful stuff like that
20150725 10:52:00< Elvish_Hunter> Anyway, now I really have to go. Have fun hacking Wesnoth!
20150725 10:52:07-!- Elvish_Hunter [~irssi@wesnoth/developer/elvish-hunter] has quit [Quit: Ciao!]
20150725 10:52:14< Kepakiano> we will =)
20150725 10:52:47< genbattle> speaking of which, what version of VS do you guys usually use for windows development 2010/2013?
20150725 10:53:03< genbattle> I guess it doesn't matter much thanks to cmake
20150725 10:53:16< willk> Kepakiano: just looked it up, VS 2015 should be good
20150725 10:53:21< Pforce> well, no it does not, you have to manage some things in cmake
20150725 10:53:29< Pforce> ive mainly worked with 2008 and 2010
20150725 10:53:32< Pforce> tried the never ones
20150725 10:53:40< vultraz> we've used 2008 and 2010
20150725 10:53:43< Kepakiano> willk: great, thanks =)
20150725 10:53:44< Pforce> but 2010 is where the intellisese gets to level its usable :)
20150725 10:53:53< Pforce> for 2008 you need plugins to make it bearable :D
20150725 10:53:57< willk> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh567368.aspx
20150725 10:53:59< genbattle> yea we use 2010 at work
20150725 10:54:10< vultraz> However, we welcome anyone able to get it working on newer versions
20150725 10:54:21< Kepakiano> I used 2013 and found intellisense to be horrible to work with^^
20150725 10:54:48< genbattle> 2015 will probably be our next upgrade
20150725 10:54:59-!- Kepakiano is now known as Kepakiano^afk
20150725 10:55:18< genbattle> I feel the pain of tool migrations on old creaky C++ codebases
20150725 10:56:00< willk> What is it that's outdated? If it's just language constructs then I remember the Clang guys had a modernising tool
20150725 10:56:14< Pforce> so, any scripts to auto build depedencies?
20150725 10:56:18< Pforce> for windows
20150725 10:56:30< willk> Wait, I though CMake did it
20150725 10:56:39< Pforce> it can, if you code it that way
20150725 10:56:50< vultraz> Out site and wiki are back up
20150725 10:57:09< vultraz> And the forums seem good again too
20150725 10:57:42-!- willk [a801062a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.168.1.6.42] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20150725 10:57:43< Yaiyan> Anyone up for pastebining the post?
20150725 10:57:56< vultraz> WHich post?
20150725 10:58:00< vultraz> news or getting started?
20150725 10:58:11< Yaiyan> News one I guess
20150725 10:58:18< Yaiyan> For HN and reddit if the site goes down again
20150725 10:58:50-!- JimmyJazz [516e5bc9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.110.91.201] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 11:01:37< genbattle> I added the forum link to the r/programming post of wesnoth.org
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20150725 11:02:06< genbattle> my submission of the foum link has only seen downvoting and snarkyness so far, so it doesn't look like anything will come of it
20150725 11:02:12< genbattle> *forum
20150725 11:03:50< genbattle> anyway, kudos for asking for help, that's always the first step towards receiving it
20150725 11:04:31< genbattle> I'm off to bed, but as I said I'll put some more time into looking at Wesnoth and seeing how I can contribute tomorrow
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20150725 11:15:07< vifon> Did the main menu change in the last year or two or is it just my new monitor? The colors are much more saturated than I remember them.
20150725 11:15:15-!- horrowind [~Icedove@2a02:810a:8b00:5298:21b:fcff:fee3:c3ff] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20150725 11:20:06< Yaiyan> The main menu being the title screen?
20150725 11:20:11< vifon> Yeah.
20150725 11:20:41< zookeeper> the background graphics changed, but nothing else about it
20150725 11:20:45< Yaiyan> Yeah, that was graphically updated in 1.12 I believe
20150725 11:21:02< Yaiyan> ^
20150725 11:21:22< lipkab> Widget graphics were also updated.
20150725 11:21:38< vifon> I really need to start playing again...
20150725 11:23:18< Anticipation> vifon, I know that feel. I played this and Dungeon Crawl SO much when I was in high school.
20150725 11:24:24-!- strykerkkd [5e155db5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.21.93.181] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
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20150725 11:26:27< JimmyJazz> Is there any way to group the bugs in the bug tracker by platform/feature?
20150725 11:31:07-!- lilroo [1f994fc0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.153.79.192] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 11:37:49< Yaiyan> I see what you mean by LoW being unmaintained
20150725 11:38:19< vultraz> JimmyJazz: hm, im not sure..
20150725 11:38:22< vultraz> there should be somewhere
20150725 11:38:40-!- horrowind1 [~Icedove@2a02:810a:8b00:5298:21b:fcff:fee3:c3ff] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 11:38:42< vultraz> vifon: we totally revamped the UI for 1.12
20150725 11:38:49< vultraz> the look of it, that is
20150725 11:38:52< vultraz> it still works the same
20150725 11:39:24< vifon> The last big change I remember is the planning mode (or whatever was it called).
20150725 11:39:32< vifon> How much did I miss?
20150725 11:40:07-!- doofus-01 [~aristede@2601:647:4502:f500:c654:44ff:fe28:1054] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20150725 11:41:28< vultraz> vifon: well, the map editor also changed drastically in 1.11/1.12
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20150725 11:45:20< drachenlord1510> The Battle for Wesnoth needs help
20150725 11:46:01< doofus-01> Hello wesnoth-dev.  This is in regard to the call for help. 
20150725 11:46:27< doofus-01> I can probably help with maintaining campaign or two.
20150725 11:46:35< zookeeper> oh hey doofus
20150725 11:46:47< doofus-01> Hi zookeeper
20150725 11:47:23< zookeeper> any particular campaign you're most interested in?
20150725 11:47:46< doofus-01> Not the MP one, but any of the others would be fine.
20150725 11:48:02-!- saul__ [502a3441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.42.52.65] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 11:48:04< UnwiseOwl> My inability to keep my own campaigns up to date or wml my way out of a paper bag probably rules me out, huh? :P
20150725 11:48:11< saul__> Hi
20150725 11:48:21< saul__> I am interested in helping the development
20150725 11:49:00< vultraz> saul__: what would you like to do?
20150725 11:49:06< saul__> reading quickstart now
20150725 11:50:48< doofus-01> zookeeper: I've not used git before, so I need to get that clone stuff set up.  I'll bug you again when I've got that done.
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20150725 11:52:30< zookeeper> doofus-01, sure. there's plenty to choose from so please do just suggest any favorites you have. also it depends on what sort of thing you're ready to attempt; some campaigns don't really need much done to them, whereas others (NR for instance...) would warrant pretty extensive further development
20150725 11:53:05< vultraz> NR is taken, however :P *raises hand*
20150725 11:53:11< zookeeper> i belive a common sentiment would be that it'd be great if someone improved the last scenario of THoT...
20150725 11:53:20< zookeeper> oh, ok
20150725 11:53:44< vultraz> and yes, the last scenario of THoT is....a tad bug
20150725 11:53:45< vultraz> big*
20150725 11:54:07< Yaiyan> Says the NR maintainer
20150725 11:54:13< zookeeper> i've had a rewrite of the last scenario of SoF in mind for ages, but never really got around to figuring out the specifics of how to make the lava and elves work the way they should
20150725 11:54:29< Yaiyan> Last scenario of NR is...
20150725 11:55:37< doofus-01> Balancing those big NR-style with zillions of units on the map is not something I can do anyway.
20150725 11:56:33< doofus-01> I might be able to help with lava or something like that, we'll see what available once I'm ready.  Thanks.
20150725 11:56:44< saul__> I'm clonign the repo and installing the game. Presumably I have to play the game to get to the last scenario of THoT. Is there an IDE for development?
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20150725 11:59:43< zookeeper> saul__, that THoT thing was really aimed at doofus; if you're not already very familiar with the game i can't really recommend that sort of task
20150725 11:59:56< saul__> ok
20150725 11:59:56< zookeeper> (but you didn't say that you're unfamiliar with it either, so i don't really know where you're coming from)
20150725 12:00:09< Whiskeyjack> If one has no experience in any of the given fields is there something one could still get fairly easy started with to help (only have some knowledge programming with Java...)? Also how much time should one have available to help out?
20150725 12:00:22< saul__> I just thought that might be a bug I could look into
20150725 12:01:06< saul__> Is there a development environment which people use?
20150725 12:01:12< zookeeper> saul__, it's not really a bug, it's just a scenario that's too big and generally thought to not be very fun, so redesigning something like that requires quite a bit of experience with the game
20150725 12:01:12< saul__> the docs mention linux
20150725 12:01:26< zookeeper> and no, there's no one IDE most people tend to use
20150725 12:01:36< saul__> just notepad
20150725 12:02:06< zookeeper> well as long as it's not the stock windows notepad (never use that)
20150725 12:02:20< zookeeper> i use notepad++ myself for everything
20150725 12:02:24< saul__> OK
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20150725 12:02:59< Yaiyan> Whiskeyjack, the eclipse plugin for developing umc stuff is written in Java
20150725 12:03:05< Anticipation> You guys handle the subjective stuff like scenario balance, I'll keep to the bugs and feature requests :S
20150725 12:05:04< Yaiyan> I can answer most of the C++ questions on the wiki, but, eh
20150725 12:05:36< zookeeper> yeah, the campaign maintenance jobs are something that realistically only existing veteran players or community members would be qualified to do... or someone who learns quick and spends a couple of weeks playing the game first
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20150725 12:07:05< zookeeper> of course that doesn't mean new people can't contribute to specific areas, like art or writing or such
20150725 12:07:09< Anticipation> Yeah it's not like you can run the result through unit tests either.
20150725 12:07:22< vultraz> saul__: Notepad++ is very useful
20150725 12:07:30< vultraz> basically, just a text editor
20150725 12:07:49< vultraz> you can use your IDE of choice if you use one to build the game
20150725 12:08:12< vultraz> such as XCode on OS X or VS or Code::Blocks on Windows
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20150725 12:12:52< Whiskeyjack> regarding the specific contributions: I recently started playing all mainline campaigns from HttT to SoBE and had planned to make a big post in writers forum about minor (and some major) story consistency issues. Should I take that to hopefully newfound maintainers?
20150725 12:14:49< vultraz> zookeeper: ^ right up your alley
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20150725 12:16:17< zookeeper> Whiskeyjack, i think the writers forum is a better place
20150725 12:17:33< zookeeper> i'd recommend the writers forum pretty much regardless of how many active maintainers we have and for which campaigns
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20150725 12:24:22< coppolaemilio> Hello there people!
20150725 12:26:21< aquileia> genbattle: anonymissimus uses 2008, gfgtdf uses 2010, I use 2013. Instructions about quirks of our vcproj are here: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnWindows#Visual_Studio
20150725 12:26:55< coppolaemilio> I'm a python coder willing to help
20150725 12:27:25< vultraz> coppolaemilio: hello :)
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20150725 12:27:45< vultraz> aquileia: do you plan to update to '15?
20150725 12:28:11< aquileia> If someone compiles boost for VC 2015 I would definitely add it to the external repo (instructions are on the wiki and in the repo)
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20150725 12:29:38< aquileia> vultraz: As long as the projectfile has to be compatible with 2008, updating to 2015 isn't a priority for me
20150725 12:31:55< aquileia> Pforce: If you mean dependencies for MSVC, we store them in a repo: https://github.com/aquileia/external (see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnWindows#Visual_Studio for details)
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20150725 12:33:00< aquileia> Some of them are in need of an update, but I didn't have the time for that yet (and the vcproj of one of the dependencies currently isn't available)
20150725 12:33:17< UnwiseOwl> Why do you hate me, irc?
20150725 12:34:04< aquileia> But I'm going to work my way through https://wiki.gnome.org/action/show/Projects/GTK+/Win32/MSVCCompilationOfGTKStack when I have the time
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20150725 12:34:22< vultraz> coppolaemilio: our python needs revolve around around our maintenance toolchain - wmllint and wmllint (there's another tool called wmlscope too but it's broken by design), as well as their guitk-based GUI frontend, GUI.pyw
20150725 12:34:57< vultraz> er, wmllint, and wmlindent
20150725 12:35:18< tetha> ah sweet, you're already talking about what i'd be interested about :)
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20150725 12:36:09< vultraz> both work, but they're badly designed, horribly complicated, and are not python 3 compatible 
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20150725 12:39:20< tetha> hm.. also why are the python tools buried somewherein data/tools? took me quite a bit to find them.
20150725 12:40:37< vultraz> that's our main tools directory 
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20150725 12:41:34< tetha> yep, but if the 3g repo is a concern, I'd be considering to move stuff into other repos in the same organization
20150725 12:41:48< aquileia> loonycyborg: Is wesnoth.rc compiled with the C preprocessor or a separate RC preprocessor in scons?
20150725 12:41:57< tetha> this would also allow to restrict me with just my python knowledge from touching the C++ code :)
20150725 12:42:35< vultraz> the repo size isn't a problem for us 
20150725 12:42:36< loonycyborg> aquileia: scons just calls resource compiler on it, nothingmore
20150725 12:42:54< loonycyborg> windres namely
20150725 12:43:24< aquileia> loonycyborg: Does it define RC_INVOKED ?
20150725 12:43:40< zookeeper> tetha, the tools are supposed to be a part of the distribution, and if they were in separate repos then people would need to clone several repos and then they'd be in different places, and when releasing they'd need to be merged and it'd inevitably get screwed up somehow, etc.
20150725 12:43:41< vultraz> tetha: if your interest is exclusively on the python tools, you could download one of the 300MB release binaries.the tools are included
20150725 12:44:19< tetha> ah. well easier packaging is a good point.
20150725 12:44:21< loonycyborg> aquileia: hmm if it's standard define for all rc files then probably yes
20150725 12:44:24< zookeeper> vultraz, well he'll still need a clone to be able to work on them
20150725 12:44:39< aquileia> damn, then I'll have to think about something else
20150725 12:44:43< vultraz> oh, right... to submit a pull request
20150725 12:45:24< vifon> Well, at the very least he could do a shallow clone.
20150725 12:45:44< tetha> i dont mean to say this is wrong :) It's just an unusual structure for a github based project.
20150725 12:45:56< vifon> Is it?
20150725 12:47:11< tetha> most stuff I've had contact with so far tends to have one releasable project per repo, and tends to use more public repos, yes
20150725 12:48:29< Yaiyan> wmllint looks like C written in python
20150725 12:48:43< vultraz> I never said it was pretty :P
20150725 12:48:44< Yaiyan> Never really read the code before
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20150725 12:48:55< vultraz> it's the exact opposite 
20150725 12:48:56< tetha> I'm currenly amazed by the global check function
20150725 12:49:56< tetha> even though I probably understand how it became what it is.
20150725 12:52:04< tetha> I'm just wondering about a good angle to approach that.
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20150725 12:55:19< Yaiyan> It's tempting to just rewrite the whole file >_>
20150725 12:55:42< Yaiyan> Well, not rewrite it all, but a fair amount
20150725 12:56:38< vultraz> you're perfectly welcome to totally redesign the whole thing, and with python 3 support
20150725 12:56:46< tetha> it is, but it's intensly scary to touch that without a lof of tests. 
20150725 12:56:47< vifon> Well... https://twitter.com/mcclure111/status/618630726091608064
20150725 12:56:48< vultraz> hello jcnewjersey 
20150725 12:56:56< Yaiyan> True, true
20150725 12:57:01< Yaiyan> vultraz, that would be a mistake, I think
20150725 12:57:20< Yaiyan> On OS X and Ubuntu, at least, python still runs python 2
20150725 12:57:28< vultraz> hmm...
20150725 12:57:38< vultraz> seriously?
20150725 12:57:42< vultraz> that seems...odd
20150725 12:57:43< Yaiyan> Hmm
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20150725 12:57:47< joet> tetha,  ++ completley agree
20150725 12:58:12< Yaiyan> On 14.04, that's definitely true
20150725 12:58:28< vifon> Khem... I know exactly one distro that uses Py3 by default.
20150725 12:58:32< tetha> if you want to cry, centos 7 has dropped plans to roll out python 3 as a default package "because SCLs have it"
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20150725 12:58:58< vultraz> SCLs
20150725 12:59:00< vultraz> ?
20150725 12:59:32< tetha> SCLs are what happens if you combine separate RPM repositories, chroots and ld-magic to somthing... dark
20150725 13:00:05< tetha> in the end, it allows you to run something like python 3 through <scl enable python3 python>. as long as no one looks too closely
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20150725 13:00:17< zookeeper> rewrite what, wmllint? i'd think instead of rewriting, the better choice would to be write a new tool which would work from 1.12 or 1.14 onwards, with the old wmllint left in for conversions from even older versions.
20150725 13:00:40< vultraz> that's an option too
20150725 13:01:17< tetha> if you're talking about rewriting. would there be enough features to create wmlcheck and wmlmigrate, names pending of course.
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20150725 13:07:39< Yaiyan> If it worked sensibly, it could allow some kind of extension for that, I think
20150725 13:07:59< Yaiyan> So instead of just printing every issue, it logged it internally as well
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20150725 13:10:59< vultraz> hello, all 
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20150725 13:23:06< autodidact> this repo...
20150725 13:23:13< autodidact> are the assets embedded or something
20150725 13:23:44< Joof> appears so; see: images
20150725 13:23:53< Joof> is there a bugtracker of some sort?
20150725 13:24:02< lipkab> bugs.wesnoth.org
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20150725 13:24:57< Flexfit> HI
20150725 13:25:06-!- Flexfit is now known as PositiveMD
20150725 13:25:15< PositiveMD> I saw the post for help on /r/programming
20150725 13:26:08< lipkab> Hi.
20150725 13:26:49< PositiveMD> If I want to contribute to the maintenance toolchain with python
20150725 13:26:58< PositiveMD> Do I still need to clone the entire wesnoth repo?
20150725 13:27:35< lipkab> Yes.
20150725 13:27:46< vultraz> If you want to make pull requests, yes
20150725 13:28:05-!- InfPhinyX [8e69d857@gateway/web/freenode/ip.142.105.216.87] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 13:29:05< InfPhinyX> Hi!
20150725 13:29:21< PositiveMD> Hi!
20150725 13:29:22< vultraz> hi :D
20150725 13:30:31< autodidact> incoming whitespace altering pull requests
20150725 13:30:37< autodidact> thx publicity
20150725 13:30:43-!- twospeed [43ad07c6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.173.7.198] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 13:31:37< PositiveMD> How much knowledge of c++ would I need in order to contribute?
20150725 13:32:24< PositiveMD> The post said you were looking for intermediate/advanced knowledge, but what do you define that as?
20150725 13:32:57< drachenlord1510> believe me wesnoth is nearly bug free
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20150725 13:33:24< lipkab> drachenlord1510: Aha...
20150725 13:33:26< Kepakiano^afk> PositiveMD: there is a C++ quiz on the website. if you pass, you're probably more than fit to contribute
20150725 13:33:52< autodidact> perhaps when you finish cloning in december, PositiveMD, you can judge for yourself :P it is open source
20150725 13:34:28< lipkab> PositiveMD: What autodidact said. If you can understand the code, you should be OK.
20150725 13:34:36< PositiveMD> I currently have 0 knowledge of c++, and I wondering how long it would take me to learn enough to contribute.
20150725 13:34:57< autodidact> do you know any c
20150725 13:35:10< PositiveMD> Yeah, I took a compiler class using C
20150725 13:35:11-!- raoult [~raoult@2602:306:c506:5430:b8e0:2a22:ca79:d46] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 13:35:39< autodidact> i have finished cloning yet, but i imagine relatively quicly
20150725 13:35:46-!- ancestral [~ancestral@163.sub-70-197-230.myvzw.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 13:36:15< PositiveMD> between python and c++, which one do you all need more?
20150725 13:36:22< drachenlord1510> If they really need help, the first step should be: move the project away from sourceforge and to github.
20150725 13:36:35< PositiveMD> I thought it was already on github?
20150725 13:36:37< lipkab> PositiveMD: C++
20150725 13:36:52< lipkab> drachenlord1510: Guess what, we're already on GitHub :P
20150725 13:37:40< vultraz> quiz here http://wiki.wesnoth.org/HackingWesnoth#C.2B.2B_Quiz
20150725 13:37:43< vultraz> :P
20150725 13:37:47< lipkab> SourceForge only hosts the releases.
20150725 13:37:54< lipkab> I mean, downloads.
20150725 13:38:32-!- Hnefi [5ae4d225@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.228.210.37] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 13:41:54< autodidact> first question: what is a virtual destructor?
20150725 13:42:06< autodidact> later question: what is an iterator?
20150725 13:42:09< autodidact> :P
20150725 13:42:15< Hnefi> Is the source for Wesnoth available only as a compressed archive, or is there a readable repo somewhere one can fork?
20150725 13:42:35< autodidact> Hnefi @topic
20150725 13:43:07< Hnefi> ah, thanks.
20150725 13:43:10< Yaiyan> github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth
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20150725 13:43:37< Hnefi> Brilliant. I'll take a look.
20150725 13:43:48< lipkab> autodidact: An iterator is something used for stepping through the items of a container.
20150725 13:44:00< Appleman1234> Interesting call to arms, I may be able to stop idling 
20150725 13:44:07< autodidact> lipkab?
20150725 13:44:17< lipkab> lipkab!
20150725 13:44:51< autodidact> that's not neccesarily a good answer anyway
20150725 13:45:12< autodidact> i was pointing out the sharp decrease in required knowledge between questions
20150725 13:45:12< gandaro> it’s like asking “what is the square root of 42” and then asking “what is 1+1” :o
20150725 13:45:30< lipkab> Ah, so you're quoting the questions! :P
20150725 13:45:43< Appleman1234> is there any more information, other than the ship is sinking ?
20150725 13:45:46< Kepakiano^afk> and he's questioning the questions!
20150725 13:45:56-!- Kepakiano^afk is now known as Kepakiano
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20150725 13:46:52< lipkab> autodidact: That was meant as a simple answer for someone I thought was asking a question :P
20150725 13:47:33< autodidact> sorry :P
20150725 13:47:46< autodidact> got a bit of a headache
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20150725 13:48:05< PositiveMD> I started the cloning process :)
20150725 13:48:11< PositiveMD> I'll be done by 2016
20150725 13:48:22< PositiveMD> er
20150725 13:48:33< PositiveMD> I've starting to recieve objects
20150725 13:49:19-!- UnwiseOwl [~Ted@124-169-219-239.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150725 13:49:20< lipkab> PositiveMD: Even vultraz could finish in like two days and he's living on a reef somewhere in the middle of the Pacific.
20150725 13:49:59< PositiveMD> I'm just kidding, i'm getting 2 MiB down
20150725 13:50:03< PositiveMD> it shouldn't take too long
20150725 13:51:00< autodidact> i finished a few minutes ago
20150725 13:51:10< autodidact> at that speed
20150725 13:51:18< autodidact> so, 20ish?
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20150725 13:51:49< PositiveMD> probably
20150725 13:52:24< Appleman1234> vultraz, do you have any more information ? 
20150725 13:53:10< PositiveMD> In the meantime, if I can get through this 
20150725 13:53:11< PositiveMD> http://www.icce.rug.nl/documents/cplusplus/
20150725 13:53:19< PositiveMD> I should be good to go right?
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20150725 13:54:33< Appleman1234> PositiveMD, it is a start 
20150725 13:55:17< autodidact> why does this have a section on bison and yacc
20150725 13:55:28< autodidact> er, flex
20150725 13:55:30< autodidact> i guess
20150725 13:56:05-!- ratakill [49cdff33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.73.205.255.51] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 13:56:23< ratakill> I'm a C++ developwe
20150725 13:56:42< ratakill> *Developer
20150725 13:56:58< ratakill> I want to help with the game
20150725 13:57:01< autodidact> everyone in here is innocent ratakill 
20150725 13:57:05< PositiveMD> What IDE do you guys use?
20150725 13:57:10< PositiveMD> Visual Studios?
20150725 13:57:23< ratakill> I don't like windows
20150725 13:57:28< ratakill> i use linux
20150725 13:57:29< autodidact> i doubt they enforce an ide
20150725 13:57:43< lipkab> PositiveMD: Everyone their favorites.
20150725 13:57:47 * Yaiyan just uses geany
20150725 13:57:50< Yaiyan> Not even a full ide
20150725 13:58:10< ratakill> i use the console for type code
20150725 13:58:14< autodidact> i use sed
20150725 13:58:26< mulander> M-x butterfly
20150725 13:58:26< raoult> VS 2015 just dropped
20150725 13:58:26-!- kidneb [kidneb@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe33:363c] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 13:58:58< autodidact>  /s
20150725 13:59:06< raoult> and VS is a *really* nice IDE
20150725 13:59:31< Yaiyan> I've only used it with VB, so my view is probably biased
20150725 13:59:32< ratakill> i think linux need an IDE like VS
20150725 13:59:41< autodidact> only uses 16G memory per solution
20150725 13:59:59< raoult> that is not true, heh
20150725 14:00:03< ratakill> like has Mac with Xcode
20150725 14:00:13< autodidact> yeah thats a little hyperbolic
20150725 14:00:18< autodidact> 15.5 maybe
20150725 14:00:24< ratakill> Xd
20150725 14:00:38< raoult> look at oz code
20150725 14:00:46-!- Grelek [5ab4bb2a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.180.187.42] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 14:00:50< raoult> it looks pretty nice
20150725 14:01:11< lipkab> ratakill: Hi, there's a quickstart guide linked from the topic for prospective contributors.
20150725 14:01:18-!- quentin [~quentin@252.5.84.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 14:01:24< raoult> most of that is C#, though
20150725 14:01:32< ratakill> thanks 
20150725 14:02:05< autodidact> wesnoth is on sdl 1.2...?
20150725 14:02:15< raoult> I am a developer that just stumbled upon your project
20150725 14:02:23< lipkab> autodidact: Yep.
20150725 14:02:37< autodidact> is this one of the holes in the ship
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20150725 14:03:14< lipkab> You mean something that needs urgent fixing? Not really.
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20150725 14:04:48< autodidact> isnt hw acceleration and texture swapping crap
20150725 14:05:03< autodidact> is it even under development?
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20150725 14:07:53< lipkab> autodidact: Well, we tried SDL2 and it didn't work.
20150725 14:08:21< lipkab> The hw acceleration stuff is a pile of crap, actually slower than our current software rendering engine.
20150725 14:09:14< autodidact> that sounds...odd
20150725 14:09:25< lipkab> There are some improvements regarding touch screens and maybe unicode input, but that's not all that much that we could gain from an SDL2 port.
20150725 14:09:48< Yaiyan> SDL 1.2 works terribly with OS X
20150725 14:09:48< Appleman1234> What is the purpose of this call to action ?
20150725 14:10:08< Appleman1234> Does anyone know ?
20150725 14:10:28< autodidact> Appleman1234: the car is on fire and theres no driver at the wheel
20150725 14:10:32< lipkab> Appleman1234: Recruiting new developers.
20150725 14:11:54< Appleman1234> autodidact, that is a metaphor , that tells me nothing, as a long time idler and wesnoth player , and person who wanted to be a developer but never got the chance (except for 1 bug), I am trying to understand the circumstance 
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20150725 14:13:55< lipkab> autodidact: SDL2's performance problems are contributed to by two main factors: 1) Wesnoth uses a lot sprites, something not really tolerated by video hardware 2) The current rendering engine has a lot of optimizations relying on readable buffers, something unavailable in SDL2.
20150725 14:14:18< autodidact> its just song lyrics chill Appleman1234 
20150725 14:14:25< Appleman1234_> e.g. is the goal a faster release cycle ? less bugs ? more features ? to have a larger bus factor ?
20150725 14:15:10< lipkab> Appleman1234_: All of them, but I think the bus factor is the most important.
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20150725 14:15:43< autodidact> lipkab: I admit I use glfw and other tools, and usually just do straight gl stuff
20150725 14:16:12-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150725 14:16:15< autodidact> so i was really going on when i made tetris 4ish years ago under both sdls and compared
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20150725 14:16:27< lipkab> There were all too many grandiose projects stuck because their main and only developer became inactive.
20150725 14:16:32< Appleman1234_> lipkab, thank you for the answer ? are there any plans on how to achieve these goals, from a project management perspective or is it just going to be a free for all, with review bottlenecks ?
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20150725 14:16:56< autodidact> what about storing sheets in video memory isnt tolerable, though?
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20150725 14:18:10< vultraz> lipkab: I'm on an island, not a reef :P
20150725 14:18:29< Appleman1234> vultraz, did you have anything to add ?
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20150725 14:18:43< vultraz> Appleman1234: to what? sorry I've been afk
20150725 14:18:57< lipkab> Appleman1234_: I don't know that, shadowm's the boss :)
20150725 14:19:09< Appleman1234> I am trying to understand the purpose of the call to arms you have raised 
20150725 14:19:15< autodidact> -_-
20150725 14:19:41< vultraz> Appleman1234: well, as the post said, we don't have enough people
20150725 14:19:42< lipkab> autodidact: Yep, spritesheets has been in the planning for a while.
20150725 14:19:52< lipkab> *have been
20150725 14:20:06< vultraz> Appleman1234: it's been only gfgtdf and shadowm doing engine work recently
20150725 14:20:12< autodidact> huh
20150725 14:20:18< autodidact> how have you been storing them
20150725 14:20:23< vultraz> Appleman1234: we really need new people with a broader skillset
20150725 14:20:54< lipkab> autodidact: One surface per image, currently.
20150725 14:21:07< Appleman1234> vultraz, so it is just a recruitment drive for the purpose of bus factor ?
20150725 14:22:07< vultraz> Appleman1234: partly. There are a lot of things we would like to do but don't know how, or don't have time 
20150725 14:22:09< lipkab> autodidact: It wasn't really a problem with SDL1.2, but, as noted, it prevents us from moving on to something more advanced.
20150725 14:22:34< vultraz> Appleman1234: one of our goals is to make wesnoth ready for a steam release
20150725 14:23:20< Appleman1234> vultraz, I would like to help, but I have a problem with expectations, so I am trying to understand the goal here, so I don't get my expectations confused ...
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20150725 14:24:03< autodidact> i see :S
20150725 14:24:13< autodidact> looking through unit animations
20150725 14:24:59< autodidact> -_-
20150725 14:25:20< Appleman1234> e.g  wesnoth is famous for IIRWIIR , is that going to change ? is a faster release cycle desired ? In terms of preventing having 100 engine patch changesets sitting in a reivew queue , waiting for shadowm or gtgtdf to review them ? is there anything in place for that ?
20150725 14:25:28< Anticipation> From what I understand, the simple version is that more needs to be done than there are people willing/able to do it. So Wesnoth just needs more people to help out, initially through shooting off stuff in the bugtracker but if someone shows themselves to be more capable they can step up their input.
20150725 14:26:05< vultraz> Appleman1234: yes, we want to move to a faster release cycle so it's not 2 years between stable versions
20150725 14:26:10< vultraz> (be back in a bit)
20150725 14:26:22< Appleman1234> Anticipation, That is always the case with every project though
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20150725 14:29:37< autodidact> would a full move away from sdl objects to manual opengl texture buffers be met with a ton of opposition?
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20150725 14:31:00< Appleman1234> autodidact, depends on the device compatibility and opengl compatibility ? but it seems like it would be replacing one problem with another problem 
20150725 14:31:29< autodidact> device compatibility...?
20150725 14:31:44< Yaiyan> SDL wraps OpenGL, no?
20150725 14:31:50< autodidact> it can
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20150725 14:33:48< Appleman1234> autodidact, it runs on a lot of different operating systems, devices, etc, it previous requests to do similar things met with opposition when the prevent those devices from running wesnoth , at least in the past 
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20150725 14:43:02< vultraz> Appleman1234: we no longer want bugs to sit in the tracker for weeks, months, or years because no one knows - or wants - to fix them. There's a specific bug regarding linebreaks not showing up on Windows that we've known about for a LONG time but no one's sure how to fix it. 
20150725 14:43:50< vultraz> And we want to be able to implement new things such as spritesheets or SLD2 support in a timely fashion
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20150725 14:45:04< vultraz> Or redesign our UI framework, which has sat in an uncertain state since 2008
20150725 14:45:41< grcooper> is there an issue tracker on the github? I do not see one.
20150725 14:46:35< grcooper> also, it seems like a lot of the PR's on github have not been merged for a long time, are these just features that have not been implemented full yet?
20150725 14:46:36-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD111107165103.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20150725 14:46:45< vultraz> no, we still use gna since the github one doesn't support file uploads
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20150725 14:46:53< vultraz> http://bugs.wesnoth.org/
20150725 14:46:57< drachenlord1510> September 1st, 2015; we will officially close down the SourceForge repository
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20150725 14:48:11< vultraz> grcooper: some. some are experimental stuff that's probably moot now
20150725 14:48:49< vultraz> but we do have a relatively good rate of closing PRs, as there are only 18 open and we're on number 420
20150725 14:50:37< grcooper> Do you guys have a plan to organize the new devs coming in or are you just asking everyone to contribute? Who are the main devs here?
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20150725 14:52:18< Appleman1234> grcooper, main devs are listed in the forum topic in the topic of the channel
20150725 14:52:23< tetha> so how many parsers are implemented in the wml* tools....
20150725 14:52:48< Appleman1234> vultraz, I am noting these various goals down for reference
20150725 14:53:42< vultraz> grcooper: well, once things settle a bit, things will get more organized
20150725 14:54:02< quentin> EasyCoding tasks don't seem easy, to me an easy task is a few hours for someone who knows nothing about the game
20150725 14:54:32< vultraz> Appleman1234: another thing: if we go on steam, we will certainly need to get bugs fixed quickly and updates live
20150725 14:54:38< Appleman1234> easy is subjective 
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20150725 14:54:52< Appleman1234> vultraz, as a free game I assume 
20150725 14:54:57< vultraz> yes
20150725 14:55:51< quentin> I'm sure there are easier things than that, eg. small bugs to fix
20150725 14:55:57< quentin> but I can't find those
20150725 14:56:07< Anticipation> bugs.wesnoth.org has those
20150725 14:56:21< Appleman1234> quentin, start with http://gna.org/bugs/?23712 
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20150725 14:58:46< quentin> Appleman1234: I would not know how to investigate that one
20150725 14:59:16< quentin> however, thanks for the gna link, it looks like some minor bugs are easy to fix
20150725 14:59:57< Appleman1234> quentin, it wouldn't be hard to learn 
20150725 15:00:15< vultraz> I wouldn't be so sure..
20150725 15:00:27< vultraz> our code is kinda a mess
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20150725 15:01:16< vultraz> not to deter people! just saying 
20150725 15:01:23< Yaiyan> The bug doesn't exist in 1.12, fwiw
20150725 15:01:54< Anticipation> what state is the documentation at?
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20150725 15:02:27< Appleman1234> that is almost mentioned in the forum post I think
20150725 15:02:36< Hnefi> I had almost forgotten the joy of building a large C++ project from scratch on my home computer. *sigh*
20150725 15:02:39< Appleman1234> as code documentation being sproadic 
20150725 15:03:14< Hnefi> how long does a fresh Wesnoth build usually take on a decent desktop? Are we talking hours?
20150725 15:03:23< tetha> oh and there's another linter-ish thing in here. this tools-folder keeps on giving. 
20150725 15:03:42< tetha> btw, don't take my ramling wrong, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this stuff.
20150725 15:04:31< Appleman1234> Hnefi, depends but generally between less than 1 hour to just over 1 hour from memory 
20150725 15:05:07< Hnefi> alright, not too bad.
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20150725 15:17:02< Appleman1234> vultraz, I am happy to help out, at least more than I have been 
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20150725 15:27:59< pydsigner> Hnefi and anyone else scared at the thought of a multi-hour build: I think I can usually build on my laptop in 30 mins
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20150725 15:28:14< pydsigner> And it's no build-orient machine
20150725 15:28:27< Hnefi> yeah, the build finished pretty quickly. Now I'm just trying to figure out why the built in testcases fail.
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20150725 15:36:32< pydsigner> tetha: wmlscope?
20150725 15:37:14< Hnefi> WML_tests.cmd generates 118 errors. Seems like basic WML functionality is broken in my build.
20150725 15:37:40< tetha> pydsigner: wmlvalidator seems to be doing something I'd expect from a linter
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20150725 15:37:51< tetha> pydsigner: but yeah, pyscope would be #3ish, I suppose
20150725 15:38:00< PositiveMD> alrighty
20150725 15:38:05< PositiveMD> I finished cloning the repo
20150725 15:38:21< PositiveMD> Is there a particular place I should start if I want to get familiar with the codebase?
20150725 15:38:35< PositiveMD> tbh i've never really worked with a large codebase before
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20150725 15:41:08-!- Anticipation [~tom@ppp14-2-82-185.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: It's 1am and the repo has finally downloaded. On the plus side I got spotify working on my Ubuntu machine so at least I can listen to music while I work on this tomorrow]
20150725 15:41:23< pydsigner> tetha: The main actually used tools are wmllint and wmlindent
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20150725 15:42:23< pydsigner> shadowm didn't speak of wmlscope as something he wanted dev hours poured into
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20150725 15:42:52< tetha> pydsigner: that's good to know.
20150725 15:43:34< tetha> I think i'll just start with some prototyping in a separate repo to start getting familiar with WML, what the tools do and so on :)
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20150725 15:46:20< pydsigner> tetha: That sounds good
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20150725 15:46:46< pydsigner> I'd even suggest playing through the actual tutorial to get a feel for the game itself if you haven't already.
20150725 15:47:00< tetha> I've done so a few years ago
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20150725 15:51:42< PositiveMD> Can you guys recommend a lightweight ide for c++?
20150725 15:52:35< Yaiyan> Looks like /r/programming deleted the thread
20150725 15:53:23< PositiveMD> yeah
20150725 15:53:25< PositiveMD> dunno why
20150725 15:54:01< pydsigner> Double-post or something
20150725 15:54:12< PositiveMD> Where was it posted?
20150725 15:54:30< Yaiyan> reddit
20150725 15:55:38< pydsigner> However, the original post https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/3ejm02/the_battle_for_wesnoth_needs_help/
20150725 15:55:42< pydsigner> Still exists
20150725 15:55:57< Yaiyan> Not on the programming frontpage
20150725 15:56:08< Yaiyan> If they delete the thread, it's still there, just doesn't appear anywhere on the sub
20150725 15:57:14-!- lipkab [~lipkab@host-91-147-210-193.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 15:57:27< pydsigner> Gotta love reddit ~_~
20150725 15:59:00< pydsigner> It is still frontpage on r/games though
20150725 15:59:07< irker547> wesnoth: Lipka Boldizsár wesnoth:master daa214072b66 / src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): GUI1 multi-selection menu widget. http://git.io/vYEHZ
20150725 15:59:09< irker547> wesnoth: Lipka Boldizsár wesnoth:master 4bd85f74f1f4 / src/game_initialization/ (multiplayer_create.cpp multiplayer_create.hpp): Deploy multimenu widget on the MP Create screen. http://git.io/vYEHc
20150725 15:59:29< pydsigner> PositiveMD: Hmm
20150725 15:59:59< pydsigner> I personally just use Geany, but it might not be as much IDE as you want
20150725 16:00:18< PositiveMD> I'm debating whether I want to try development on my windows machine
20150725 16:00:25< PositiveMD> or a linux vm
20150725 16:00:38< PositiveMD> I've been using RHEL at work, and it's grown on me
20150725 16:01:06< pydsigner> It'd probably be an order of magnitude easier to use a Linux VM.
20150725 16:01:15< lipkab> PositiveMD: QtCreator is pretty good, I've used it for Wesnoth development before.
20150725 16:01:57-!- horrowind1 [~Icedove@2a02:810a:8b00:5298:21b:fcff:fee3:c3ff] has quit [Quit: horrowind1]
20150725 16:03:06< PositiveMD> What do you suggest using for VM? VirtualBox?
20150725 16:03:21< pydsigner> That will work
20150725 16:03:59< PositiveMD> any recommended distro?
20150725 16:04:20< rlbaker> Hey all, saw the posting on HN and was interested in taking a look at some of the python tooling. I've got everything building properly it looks like. Are there any existing test suites for wml(lint | indent)?
20150725 16:04:38< pydsigner> PositiveMD: Linux Mint
20150725 16:05:00< pydsigner> rlbaker: Probably not, I'm not certain though.
20150725 16:05:38< PositiveMD> pydsigner: What makes you recommend Mint?
20150725 16:05:49< tetha> rlbaker: my grep also doesn't claim so.
20150725 16:06:11< pydsigner> rlbaker: That's probably part of the love those tools need
20150725 16:06:45< pydsigner> It isn't that they don't work, it's that they need refactoring
20150725 16:06:56< pydsigner> PositiveMD: It's my every-day OS
20150725 16:07:33< pydsigner> It works, it's fairly light-weight, and I know you can get everything you need to build Wesnoth.
20150725 16:07:35< tetha> mint has the vbox additions baked in afaik, making it good for a virtualized situation
20150725 16:07:53< pydsigner> tetha: That is also true
20150725 16:08:18< pydsigner> I know because I've seen the bootup messages about having the additions and not being in a VM
20150725 16:08:53< tetha> yup, a lot of us at work used it for that reason before switching to native linux
20150725 16:09:00< tetha> getting those additions to work can be a serious hassle
20150725 16:09:56< PositiveMD> pydsigner: which version of mint should I download? Cinnamon or Mate?
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20150725 16:10:43< pydsigner> PositiveMD: I like Cinnamon but MATE is lighter and also good
20150725 16:12:27< pydsigner> PositiveMD: I will throw one sidenote at you though; if you love RH specifically, you might find Fedora more familiar.
20150725 16:12:57< pydsigner> But I'm not certain of Fedora's dev happiness these days.
20150725 16:14:11< PositiveMD> I can learn a new OS. I have 6 GB ram on my machine atm, how much RAM do you recommend allocating to the VM?
20150725 16:15:01< tetha> fedora is doing nice imo
20150725 16:15:17< PositiveMD> I noticed that Virtual Box only allows me to select 32 bit linux distros
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20150725 16:16:22< lipkab> PositiveMD: 64 bit virtualization requires Vt-x support.
20150725 16:17:02< lipkab> Or the AMD equivalent of that whose name I can't recall.
20150725 16:17:16< amemulo> Hello! I'm here after seeing the 'we need help' post. I love wesnoth and played a lot some time ago. And I'm looking for a project to contribute and expand my Python skills.. 
20150725 16:17:18< PositiveMD> lipkab: I would have to pay for that I guess?
20150725 16:18:11< lipkab> PositiveMD: No, it's a processor feature which you most likely have unless you have a very old and/or budget CPU but it's usually switched off by default.
20150725 16:18:24< amemulo> I'm not an expert or anything like that, but I think I could be at least of some help... what does the project need precisely? what would i have to know to help?
20150725 16:19:10< lipkab> amemulo: Hello, please read the quickstart guide linked from the topic.
20150725 16:19:48< pydsigner> PositiveMD: 2 or 3 since you're building software
20150725 16:20:06< lipkab> Although I don't know if it will answer your questions because I've never read it myself.
20150725 16:20:12< pydsigner> If VT-x is off, you might want to look at your settings on reboot
20150725 16:20:47< amemulo> lipkab: Ahm! Yes. Ok, I'll try to look that up and see what I can do :)
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20150725 16:21:03< pydsigner> lipkab: Hahah
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20150725 16:21:56< PositiveMD> pydsigner: Do you reckon I'll need more than 8 GB for HDD?
20150725 16:22:34< pydsigner> Hmmm
20150725 16:23:21< pydsigner> I would suggest having a bit more
20150725 16:23:27< PositiveMD> How much?
20150725 16:23:36< pydsigner> 10-12GB?
20150725 16:24:07< PositiveMD> 12 sounds good
20150725 16:25:04< pydsigner> 5GB for base system, repo = 1+ GB I think, plus libraries and build space
20150725 16:25:24< PositiveMD> I set it as 12 with the option to dynamically increase
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20150725 16:30:29< pydsigner> Should work, although you'll have a slight performance loss from the dynamic expansion
20150725 16:30:59< pydsigner> As the build process doesn't take a year anyways, that shouldn't be a huge problem.
20150725 16:35:29< PositiveMD> Are you all looking to do a re-write of the game?
20150725 16:37:36-!- baegle [~baegle@unaffiliated/baegle] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 16:38:40< baegle> Hello dev community. I just fed the wesnoth github repository through codeclimate for static analysis (https://codeclimate.com/github/wesnoth/wesnoth/)
20150725 16:39:23< baegle> It's my hope that it might be helpful to you all
20150725 16:39:55< pydsigner> Ouch
20150725 16:41:14< pydsigner> tetha: Note that the hotspots are all Python
20150725 16:41:41< vultraz> Heh
20150725 16:41:47< vultraz> Dat python rot
20150725 16:42:33< baegle> First glance at the issues list shows a bunch of copy/pasta in python tools
20150725 16:43:03< pydsigner> Hmm though
20150725 16:43:18< vultraz> Elvish_Hunter: the report on GUI.pyw might interest you https://codeclimate.com/github/wesnoth/wesnoth/data/tools/GUI.pyw
20150725 16:43:22< lipkab> "Note that the hotspots are all Python" -> Yeah, because that thing doesn't parse C++...
20150725 16:43:26< pydsigner> baegle: Does codeclimate analyze c++?
20150725 16:43:38< baegle> pydsigner: I'm not sure, I'll check
20150725 16:43:45< baegle> I blindly assumed it did
20150725 16:43:49< baegle> that might have been a mistake
20150725 16:44:07< baegle> damn, no
20150725 16:44:12< tetha> I'm sad that codeclimate doesn't just output the error 'OH GOD I WONT TOUCH THIS'
20150725 16:44:19< baegle> Ruby, JavaScript, PHP, Python
20150725 16:44:28< baegle> I apologize
20150725 16:45:01< vultraz> Well it's still useful for the python
20150725 16:45:26< tetha> kinda
20150725 16:45:38< tetha> so far I have to find something I can't see from just scrolling over the code
20150725 16:46:05< pydsigner> "This code be bad. Bye."
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20150725 16:46:49< baegle> tetha: I find that enumerating the issues is just as important as being able to identify them
20150725 16:47:14< tetha> certainly
20150725 16:47:38< tetha> but then again, the value of being told "oh this method is too long" 87 times is meh :)
20150725 16:47:51< baegle> So does this community use static analysis tools for the c++ base?
20150725 16:48:26< tetha> welp, especially since their threshold appears to be around 20 lines for python
20150725 16:49:30< baegle> tetha: yeah, LoC per function is a subjective judgment on code quality, most static analysis tools let you set the threshold
20150725 16:49:39< baegle> I don't think code climate does
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20150725 16:49:51< tetha> yep, and I certainly agree to have a threshold there
20150725 16:50:05< tetha> but 20 is awfully harsh
20150725 16:50:44< baegle> So what do you think? Is there any value to the project in addressing some of these issues in python?
20150725 16:51:05< tetha> I'm currently evaluating changing / rewriting this stuff
20150725 16:51:07< pydsigner> The python tools do need addressed
20150725 16:51:17< pydsigner> But the point is that we were already aware of that
20150725 16:51:19< tetha> since I feel that new campaign developers would get scared to hell by this
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20150725 16:51:43< tetha> or at least I couldn't trust this tto guide new devs in a meaningful way
20150725 16:51:46< tetha> as a good linter should
20150725 16:51:52< baegle> tetha: I'd like to get some more experience in python, would you be willing to let me bang on these just a little bit while you make your decision on the rewrite?
20150725 16:51:57< pydsigner> It would have been more helpful if it analyzed C++, but it was nice shot
20150725 16:52:03< pydsigner> vultraz: https://scan.coverity.com/github ?
20150725 16:52:19< tetha> baegle: sure, no worries about that.
20150725 16:52:31< baegle> tetha: should I fork and issue pull requests?
20150725 16:52:48< tetha> baegle: I'm not even a contributor yet. 
20150725 16:52:50< tetha> but it's github
20150725 16:52:53< pydsigner> baegle: Yes.
20150725 16:52:55< tetha> so fork away ;)
20150725 16:53:05< irker547> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master f374f537b24c / projectfiles/CodeBlocks/wesnoth.cbp: Updated codeblocks projectfile http://git.io/vYEj6
20150725 16:53:06< baegle> pydsigner: thanks ; tetha: thanks
20150725 16:53:30 * pydsigner is like, a minor art contributer ><
20150725 16:53:46< kallaballa> hi! I'm a c++ developer (my wesnoth nick  is amir) and i know a bit WML (i implemented isars blasphemy based on isar unbeatable challenge). i just read the wesnoth news and i would like to help. where do i start?
20150725 16:53:50< vultraz> lipkab: the mod name label goes out the end of the box if it's too long
20150725 16:54:07< lipkab> Yes.
20150725 16:54:18< tetha> overall, my plan is to spend like a week thinking about this, getting a feel for eeveryone involved and then see if I'll propose a change :)
20150725 16:54:21< vultraz> kallaballa: what areas would you like to work on?
20150725 16:54:30< baegle> pydsigner: I
20150725 16:54:36< baegle> pydsigner: I'm setting up coverity now
20150725 16:54:51< lipkab> vultraz: It's known and will be fixed.
20150725 16:56:01< vultraz> lipkab: noted
20150725 16:56:29< vultraz> kallaballa:  in any case, you should read the post linked in the topic if you haven't already
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20150725 17:00:38< baegle> vultraz: in the git repository, I notice there is a 1.12 branch but not a 1.12 tag. Why is that?
20150725 17:01:07< vultraz> There should be a 1.12.0 tag somewhere o_O
20150725 17:01:51< baegle> it looks like tagging stopped at 1.0
20150725 17:02:11< vultraz> well that's certainly not true
20150725 17:02:33< vultraz> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/releases/tag/1.12.0
20150725 17:02:48< baegle> that's weird.....
20150725 17:03:30< baegle> I can't even search for it in the tag drop down
20150725 17:04:02< baegle> but you're right, they clearly exist
20150725 17:04:47< tetha> tags before 1.0 are called 'v#{version}', tags later on appear to be called just '#{version}'?
20150725 17:05:26< baegle> I seem to be unable to trivially complete scan.coverity.com integration due to the need to submit a build of the project without resorting to Travis CI. Does anyone here deal with Travis?
20150725 17:05:38< kallaballa> vultraz: thx. i think i'd like to bug hunt, but i'm still browsing.
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20150725 17:06:22< vultraz> umm... not sure who deals with our travis config now
20150725 17:08:16< tetha> heh, stop sounding like you need a build engineer
20150725 17:08:45< vultraz> it used to be iceiceice before he left to pursue other matters
20150725 17:08:52< vultraz> now I guess it's shadowm 
20150725 17:09:02-!- rettaw [~Rettaw@c-bffde555.07-322-73746f1.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20150725 17:09:44< kallaballa> woah.. this is the first time in i believe 6 years that i'm looking into wesnoth details. and i'm surprised lua won :)
20150725 17:12:15< [Franklin]> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9946668 is a load of stupidity
20150725 17:12:28< [Franklin]> "rewrite it in JS"
20150725 17:13:32< vultraz> holy crap
20150725 17:13:36< vultraz> so many responses
20150725 17:13:48< [Franklin]> I was drawn to this channel because of it
20150725 17:14:31< vultraz> When I wrote the call for help, I didn't realize how many people would respond
20150725 17:14:33< vultraz> It's nice :)
20150725 17:14:57< tetha> pfff, why rewrite, just wait till gcc has an asm.js backend :P
20150725 17:15:14< [Franklin]> clang might already
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20150725 17:15:24< [Franklin]> *I think*
20150725 17:15:24< vultraz> shadowm: might want to look at that HN thread
20150725 17:15:36< vultraz> shadowm: out of curiosity
20150725 17:15:47-!- Gabe [60215d12@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.33.93.18] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 17:16:37< vultraz> I've never seen so many people in here before
20150725 17:17:04< tetha> I'm curious how that'll look in a week.
20150725 17:17:27< rettaw> if you have a list of starter bugs, it might be a good idea to put it in the topic
20150725 17:17:48< Gabe> Just curious how I can start contributing. Intermediate C++ and fairly advanced python
20150725 17:18:14< tetha> I'm getting the feeling we need a plan on the python part, and fast.
20150725 17:18:50< Gabe> No game developers though and never worked in a truly large C++ code base 
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20150725 17:18:54< vultraz> Gabe: read the post in the topic for starters.  You might also want to look at bugs.wesnoth.org and find a simple bug to fix
20150725 17:19:17< Gabe> Danke
20150725 17:20:54< [Franklin]> I've worked on large C projects before
20150725 17:20:57< [Franklin]> open-source too
20150725 17:22:56-!- vultraz changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Wesnoth Developers Channel | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Bug tracker: http://bugs.wesnoth.org | Quickstart guide to contributing: http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911
20150725 17:23:30-!- vultraz changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Wesnoth Developers Channel | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Bug tracker: http://bugs.wesnoth.org | Quickstart guide to contributing: http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911
20150725 17:23:58< vultraz> Ok, the bug tracker's now in the topic too
20150725 17:26:48< vultraz> pydsigner: do you know the ways of the Travis?
20150725 17:27:20< pydsigner> Only a very little bit
20150725 17:27:31< pydsigner> I'd be willing to try to get you plugged in
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20150725 17:27:46< vultraz> baegle was the one asking about it
20150725 17:28:32< tetha> baegle: what do you need to get travis going with this?
20150725 17:28:48< tetha> in doubt I can  try to fail a few times and fire up a PR aterwards
20150725 17:29:18< pydsigner> You have to login to Travis from an account that has access to the wesnoth repo
20150725 17:29:21< baegle> It looks like travis is set up, but I don't know what it takes to integrate with coverity to get static analysis of the C++ going
20150725 17:29:35< pydsigner> And then add a travis instruction file.
20150725 17:30:47< tetha> ah, you need to add a bunch of auto-generated foo to your .travis.yml
20150725 17:30:55< pydsigner> For Coverity, https://scan.coverity.com/travis_ci
20150725 17:33:10< pydsigner> tetha: Correct
20150725 17:34:23< tetha> just a second, thinking about too many things at oce. 
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20150725 17:35:52< Jozrael> Hello all
20150725 17:35:58< vultraz> Hello
20150725 17:36:00< pydsigner> Hi Jozrael
20150725 17:36:39< Jozrael> Just saw the call to action - I'd be happy to try to pitch in on wesnoth dev, lots of fond memories here
20150725 17:37:11< Jozrael> With what meager programming abilities I have at least xD
20150725 17:37:22< vultraz> We welcome any and all help
20150725 17:37:24< vultraz> :)
20150725 17:37:53< Jozrael> Reading up on the thread now :)
20150725 17:37:58< pydsigner> Even if C++ work is not up your alley, there's plenty of WML work to be done as well
20150725 17:38:28 * [Franklin] has been wasting time on a similar project lately
20150725 17:38:44< [Franklin]> maybe I'll do something useful instead :P
20150725 17:38:46< Jozrael> I mostly dabble in Java lately but I'd be happy to try to pick up some C++ if it was in scope of my abilities
20150725 17:38:55< tetha> pydsigner: as far as I can see, the howto from coverity should work, I don't think I can execute it why my current (appropiate) permissions. 
20150725 17:39:12< pydsigner> Right, I think vultraz must do it
20150725 17:39:25< pydsigner> Or shadowm or someone with more powers
20150725 17:40:09< tetha> besides that, I'm currently falling a little bit in love with aruba/cucumber for cli-acceptance tests :)
20150725 17:42:07< pydsigner> I'm not sure that CLI-acceptance tests are what we need right now….
20150725 17:43:10< tetha> they'd greatly simplify maintenance and extension of the python tools.
20150725 17:44:38< pydsigner> Oh right
20150725 17:44:40-!- sick [ade6bf9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.230.191.157] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 17:44:47 * pydsigner is juggling too many eggs
20150725 17:45:00< tetha> :)
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20150725 17:53:40< Jozrael> http://pastebin.com/GNhBz4SC is my response to the coding quiz, though even reading the coding standards page is filling in some of these gaps
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20150725 18:06:42< lipkab> Jozrael: Don't bother too much about that quiz, it's pretty pointless in my opinion.
20150725 18:07:04< lipkab> Actually, someone should just delete it altogether.
20150725 18:07:18< lipkab> shared_ptr? Do we even use that?
20150725 18:09:13-!- c74d changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Wesnoth Developers Channel | Quickstart guide to contributing: http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911 | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Bug tracker: http://bugs.wesnoth.org
20150725 18:09:29-!- iceiceice [~chris@wesnoth/developer/iceiceice] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 18:10:01< vultraz> hello, iceiceice 
20150725 18:10:04< c74d> (on the supposition that <http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911> deserves more prominence in the present circumstances)
20150725 18:10:25< iceiceice> hi vultraz
20150725 18:10:42< vultraz> have you returned to assist in the great wave of potential new contributors?
20150725 18:11:28< iceiceice> just here to possibly answer questions, for now :)
20150725 18:11:50< lipkab> iceiceice: What is the purpose of life?
20150725 18:12:03< iceiceice> i quote a great author
20150725 18:12:07< iceiceice> "to fart around"
20150725 18:12:12-!- sudo_intellectua [~sudo_inte@173-164-188-14-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 18:12:26< lipkab> Hm... curious.
20150725 18:12:30< tetha> its hard to argue with that.
20150725 18:12:31< iceiceice> kurt vonnegut told me, never let anyone tell me differently :p
20150725 18:13:07< lipkab> Herr Vonnegut must be a great philosopher indeed.
20150725 18:14:10< tetha> hm, there should've been a pun in that sentence, but I can't think of any :/
20150725 18:21:45< autodidact> vonnegut = modern voltaire light
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20150725 18:27:40< vultraz> 90 people! 
20150725 18:27:43< vultraz> :D
20150725 18:27:58< nivix> lol I must admit I've never heard of this game until today
20150725 18:28:13< nivix> saw your post on Hackernews and thought I'd take a look
20150725 18:28:41< autodidact> this was one of the few games in the repos that wasnt tic tac toe when i installed as a kid
20150725 18:29:19< nivix> haha
20150725 18:29:21< tetha> yeah there was like kdegames, nethack andwesnoth
20150725 18:29:28< vultraz> well, all the details you need are in the topic 
20150725 18:29:37< autodidact> and some sort of tron cycle game
20150725 18:30:18 * autodidact installs all packages with *nvidia in synaptic and hopes 3d works
20150725 18:30:52< nivix> what is your vision for this game?
20150725 18:31:28< nivix> I saw you are hoping to relsease it on steam
20150725 18:31:33< vultraz> Indeed
20150725 18:32:13< vultraz> We're hoping to expand the fanbase
20150725 18:32:14< nivix> do you currently support any mobile systems? Or have plans for that?
20150725 18:32:17-!- scorpion [~scorpion@2.216.34.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20150725 18:32:59< vultraz> We have iOS and Android ports, but they're done independently and are usually far behind the desktop released
20150725 18:33:49< vultraz> Besides Steam, we might look into app store distribution
20150725 18:33:58< nivix> alright.
20150725 18:33:59< vultraz> I don't know what ancestral has to think on that
20150725 18:34:24< mulander> vultraz: just keep the game running, wesnoth is a) a piece of history b) a far better / deeper game than it looks
20150725 18:34:26< nivix> But steam is your current goal..after attaining a reasonable bug fix rate
20150725 18:34:35< vultraz> Correct
20150725 18:34:41< ancestral> It’s doable, we need a developer account
20150725 18:34:51< mulander> vultraz: generally, I do hope you will get an uptick of contributions from the announcement
20150725 18:34:56< Jozrael> Anyone have contacts at valve?
20150725 18:35:02< vultraz> We do, actually
20150725 18:35:07< Jozrael> Sweet
20150725 18:35:09< ancestral> I’m not currently in a position to handle that (due to my employer)
20150725 18:35:36< Jozrael> Where do you work ancestral?
20150725 18:35:41< ancestral> I’d rather not say
20150725 18:35:44< ancestral> Sorry :)
20150725 18:36:01< vultraz> We want to A: get to a place where we can fix bugs rapidly and have fixed many of the ones that we already know about
20150725 18:36:12< nivix> it's the internet. I'd be worried if you said where you worked
20150725 18:36:12< vultraz> and B: acquire a new trailer for the game
20150725 18:36:20< vultraz> before we go on Steam
20150725 18:36:33< ancestral> (Probably wise to wait on the Mac App Store until we’re nearly ready for Steam)
20150725 18:36:41< vultraz> True, that
20150725 18:36:44< ancestral> There are some nasty bugs on the Mac client currently
20150725 18:36:47< vultraz> App store distribution would come after
20150725 18:36:50< ancestral> Mostly UI stuff
20150725 18:36:59< vultraz> (Windows store included)
20150725 18:36:59< nivix> can't help with the trailer, I was not born with any artistic abilities
20150725 18:37:04< ancestral> And library issues
20150725 18:37:14< tetha> hows the quality expectation on the mac app store?
20150725 18:38:22< ancestral> With any app store, it’s all about ratings and reputation. The moment you put a game up on a store you’re subject to early reviews
20150725 18:38:49< nivix> Who would I get involved in the wesnoth developer community?
20150725 18:39:02< nivix> Reading through forums now.
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20150725 18:39:13< tetha> yeah, but due to the silly amount of just utter crap that went into steam for some time, it was easier to be decent on steam for the last few month ;)
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20150725 18:39:40< sudo_intellectua> you guys getting a lot of applications to do work or is it just that a lot of people are lurking on here after the announcement?
20150725 18:39:53< pydsigner> sudo_intellectua: Yes
20150725 18:40:02< vultraz> we have gotten many interested people
20150725 18:40:13< pydsigner> Most of the people who have hopped into the channel are looking to contribute
20150725 18:40:20< sudo_intellectua> so what does it take to climb aboard?
20150725 18:41:05< nivix> The source code is apprx 2GB
20150725 18:41:07< ancestral> This is the getting started topic on the forums: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=42911
20150725 18:41:08< nivix> holy...
20150725 18:41:11< vultraz> Simply read the post int he topic, clone the git repo, and pick something to work on. Once you have something, create a pull request
20150725 18:41:25< vultraz> with your changes, of course
20150725 18:41:25< pydsigner> nivix: That's the repo
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20150725 18:42:01< d4min4s> hi, I'd like to help too, some tips to get started with simple tasks/bugs? (c++/python coder)
20150725 18:42:04< pydsigner> A source snapshot is smaller
20150725 18:42:18< pydsigner> d4min4s: http://bugs.wesnoth.org
20150725 18:42:28< vultraz> d4min4s: and read the getting started post in the topic
20150725 18:42:30< d4min4s> thanks pydsigner
20150725 18:42:37< nivix> gotcha
20150725 18:42:41< d4min4s> and vultraz
20150725 18:42:42< pydsigner> You'll want to have a build environment set up as vultraz is pointing out
20150725 18:42:53< nivix> oh of course, I'm stupid
20150725 18:43:02< nivix> that's all the source code and changes for years
20150725 18:43:36< pydsigner> nivix: Right
20150725 18:43:46< vultraz> 12 years of history
20150725 18:43:51< vultraz> be glad it's only 2gb xD
20150725 18:44:07< nivix> lol
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20150725 18:45:10< nivix> so who's the lead developer?
20150725 18:45:28< vultraz> We have none
20150725 18:45:33< vultraz> Years ago, it was Dave
20150725 18:45:39< nivix> mmkay. I was going to assume shadowm
20150725 18:45:44< vultraz> When he left, the administration never really replaced him
20150725 18:45:45< nivix> but figured I'd ask
20150725 18:45:57< vultraz> shadowm, is, however, senior here
20150725 18:46:13< nivix> lotta commas there
20150725 18:46:23< vultraz> zookeeper's been around longer, though, but shadowm has the C++ experience 
20150725 18:46:57< nivix> I don't want them to be annoyed the fresh blood is coming around trying to mess with their code
20150725 18:47:22< vultraz> no fear about that
20150725 18:47:47< [Franklin]> how many people have commit access?
20150725 18:48:18< vultraz> 47
20150725 18:48:23< vultraz> But only a fraction are active
20150725 18:48:36< lipkab> nivix: There are like three C++ developers and about 300 000 lines of code so it's actually pretty hard to step on anyone's toes.
20150725 18:48:58< pydsigner> Definitely no "I saw that line first!"
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20150725 18:49:16< vultraz> *finding nemo seagulls*
20150725 18:49:27< nivix> haha
20150725 18:49:30-!- Gravis [~gravis@ip68-100-229-233.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20150725 18:49:35< tetha> unless there's like 10 lines left which are not horrifying :)
20150725 18:49:45-!- Ebbit [47552382@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.85.35.130] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 18:50:52< nivix> 744 bugs *whistles*
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20150725 18:51:10< nivix> ok so first I should probably try playing the game, right? :P
20150725 18:51:18-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 18:51:31< vultraz> A lot of those could possibly be invalid now
20150725 18:51:59< zookeeper> you don't need to worry about stepping on someone's code as such. what of course one needs to worry about is that unless one's work deals only with some internals of the engine, there's a lot of usability, game design and interface considerations to... consider.
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20150725 18:53:04< zookeeper> not always of course, but a lot of potential work that needs to be done deals with very user-facing things
20150725 18:54:38< nivix> well it would be a little while before I dove into the code. prefer to sample the community first..and of course the product
20150725 18:54:55< zookeeper> yeah if you haven't played wesnoth yet, that's definitely the first thing to do
20150725 18:54:59 * [Franklin] is torn between his personal RPG and wesnoth
20150725 18:55:08< vultraz> why not both?
20150725 18:55:17-!- joet [~joet@host86-152-153-248.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20150725 18:55:23< [Franklin]> hmm
20150725 18:55:25< [Franklin]> good idea
20150725 18:55:28< mulander> [Franklin]: do both, sure you coul push your personal RPG forward a bunch with a help from friendly devs
20150725 18:55:29< vultraz> :D
20150725 18:55:41< [Franklin]> heh
20150725 18:55:52< [Franklin]> well, I'll pull the wesnoth code and get hacking
20150725 18:55:58< mulander> good boy
20150725 18:55:59< vultraz> anyway I'm off for a few hours
20150725 18:56:00< mulander> :)
20150725 18:56:07< [Franklin]> also, is esr still active?
20150725 18:56:12< vultraz> no
20150725 18:56:20< vultraz> he isn't
20150725 18:56:40< ancestral> vultraz: Thanks for your work here
20150725 18:57:27< [Franklin]> ooh, so 2GB?
20150725 18:57:30< Gravis> you know... if you want to consolidate all the platforms, you could do so using Qt.
20150725 18:57:39< vultraz> about that, yes, [Franklin] 
20150725 18:57:57< vultraz> (god, I use too many commas for a native english speaker)
20150725 18:58:02-!- d4min4s [~this@93-47-45-204.ip111.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20150725 18:58:04< [Franklin]> is data included in the main repo?
20150725 18:58:07< lipkab> [Franklin]: Unless you have experience with game programming it might be beneficial to work a bit with Wesnoth before starting your own project to see... how not to design a game engine.
20150725 18:58:09< vultraz> Yes
20150725 18:58:14< c74d> [Franklin]: alas yes
20150725 18:58:18-!- Psenfilip [b3bbad40@gateway/web/freenode/ip.179.187.173.64] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 18:58:19< c74d> vultraz: ++commata
20150725 18:58:27< vultraz> :|
20150725 18:58:30< ancestral> Source code is about 450 MB
20150725 18:58:42< ancestral> With assets
20150725 18:58:50-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@x4db61d0a.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150725 18:59:10< vultraz> anyway, am off. shadowm should return in a bit and answer questions
20150725 18:59:18< c74d> Gravis: There was a developer who wanted to do that, but he disappeared. Are you volunteering? ;)
20150725 18:59:24< lipkab> Gravis: Someone in the past had the same idea but disappeared before pulling it through.
20150725 18:59:35< lipkab> Oh, ninja'd.
20150725 18:59:43< Gravis> that depends on if you are willing to make the change.
20150725 18:59:48-!- Liy [32ae7f30@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.174.127.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150725 19:00:01< [Franklin]> rendering is through SDL currently, no?
20150725 19:00:07< lipkab> Yes.
20150725 19:00:21< [Franklin]> what's wrong with SDL then?
20150725 19:00:35< Gravis> this would mean dropping SDL, boost, whatever networking you are using and some other stuff
20150725 19:00:49< aeth> dropping SDL for what?
20150725 19:00:53< [Franklin]> Qt
20150725 19:01:03< aeth> uh...
20150725 19:01:06< Gravis> Qt has many rendering engines
20150725 19:01:21< [Franklin]> Gravis: SDL is pretty portable, why switch?
20150725 19:01:43< lipkab> [Franklin]: Nothing, per se. But Qt has a better widgets system.
20150725 19:01:47< Gravis> you can use linuxfb, directfb, X, OpenGL, DirectX, some other stuff.  not sure, SDL might be in there
20150725 19:02:19< mulander> sdl is pretty much the best gaming lib around
20150725 19:02:29< mulander> including peripherals support
20150725 19:02:31< [Franklin]> exactly
20150725 19:02:34< mulander> and a big company (valve) backing it up
20150725 19:02:36< lipkab> [Franklin]: One of the current issues right now is that Wesnoth's self-developed UI toolkit is a mess.
20150725 19:02:38< pydsigner> Qt also really really stinks sometimes
20150725 19:02:59< pydsigner> It's a massive meatball of a dependency
20150725 19:03:00< aeth> Has anyone used Terra before? It would be interesting if we could use Terra to speed up the Lua. http://terralang.org/index.html
20150725 19:03:01< mulander> I would understand a push to sdl 2
20150725 19:03:07< mulander> but not dropping sdl 1.2 in favour of qt
20150725 19:03:12< pydsigner> ^
20150725 19:03:27< aeth> Also yes, I agree that the UI is a mess. I was trying to do UI stuff, it was frustrating, and then I stopped coding for Wesnoth, lol. Now that I remember it, I think that was what made me stop doing add-ons.
20150725 19:03:38< pydsigner> aeth: I actually haven't heard of Terra before
20150725 19:03:51< lipkab> Gravis: The issue with these grand ideas is that you can't see the benefits before entirely implementing, and entirely implementing them needs a lot of work.
20150725 19:04:14< mulander> I'm new here
20150725 19:04:19< mulander> I didn't dive in the code
20150725 19:04:23< mulander> I did play the game a lot
20150725 19:04:36< mulander> and I'm not great in C++ though started catching up with C work lately
20150725 19:04:47< mulander> but I did work on 2 mln line code bases (full legacy)
20150725 19:04:49< mulander> with 60+ devs
20150725 19:04:54< mulander> and when a project cries out for help
20150725 19:05:03< mulander> the last thing you want is turning the boat 180 degree
20150725 19:05:14< mulander> just help chipping away the small bits
20150725 19:05:25< lipkab> Gravis: As I said, it was attempted before and it pretty much got nowhere.
20150725 19:05:28< mulander> I think it is pretty well stated that some campaings need some love for people ok with WML
20150725 19:05:31< [Franklin]> ^
20150725 19:05:34< pydsigner> ^
20150725 19:05:36< mulander> some toolchains written in python need some love
20150725 19:05:51< aeth> mulander: I agree. SDL 2 is nice, that would probably be the way forward.
20150725 19:05:51< mulander> and a bit of c++ wizards should look on the internals for low hanging fruits
20150725 19:06:01< aeth> I've done some SDL 2 programming.
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20150725 19:06:33< pydsigner> IIRC, SDL 2 is goal
20150725 19:06:36< aeth> mulander: I think a low hanging fruit at first would be the library stuff. Either adding libraries or updating libraries (like to SDL2)
20150725 19:07:01< mulander> a full lib major version jump is usually a *large* thing for a portable project
20150725 19:07:04< mulander> like wesnoth
20150725 19:07:06< pydsigner> The issue with SDL2 is that it works differently than SDL 1.2
20150725 19:07:10< mulander> this thing runs pretty much on everything :)
20150725 19:07:24< [Franklin]> how about an adaptor?
20150725 19:07:26< gonzus> Hello. Newcomer here. Good with C++.
20150725 19:07:39< [Franklin]> translate SDL1.2 calls to SDL2 calls
20150725 19:07:49< gonzus> Can you give a quick rundown of dependencies (libraries) for Wesnoth?
20150725 19:08:02< Ebbit> Is there a function that lets me arbitrarily set a units hp based on an event? 
20150725 19:08:06< [Franklin]> boost, SDL 1.2, etc.
20150725 19:08:25< pydsigner> The issue right now is that Wesnoth doesn't support some things yet that are needed for SDL2 to be efficient
20150725 19:08:49< pydsigner> Because SDL 1.2 is a design from the 1990s, SDL 2 is from the 2010's.
20150725 19:09:05< c74d> gonzus: there's a list in the the first forum post referenced in the topic
20150725 19:09:06< [Franklin]> I understand
20150725 19:09:22< pydsigner> In SDL 1.2, everything is software rendering, in SDL 2, everything is hardware rendering.
20150725 19:09:34< lipkab> pydsigner: Not really.
20150725 19:09:47< lipkab> SDL2 still has the old surface API.
20150725 19:09:53< pydsigner> lipkab: It's an oversimplification yes
20150725 19:10:06< pydsigner> But the point of SDL2 is to use HW rendering
20150725 19:10:32< pydsigner> SDL1 has HW rendering but almost no-one uses it because it's non-portable and often slower.
20150725 19:10:47< mulander> well I assume the biggest pain ports
20150725 19:10:59< mulander> is gating the game to a flawless state on most major platforms first
20150725 19:11:04< mulander> (as for the core engine itself)
20150725 19:11:22< mulander> that's what I was thinking about the low hanging fruit
20150725 19:11:41< gonzus> c74d: thanks, didn't notice that.
20150725 19:11:47< c74d> hm
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20150725 19:11:59< mulander> the bug tracker has like 700 entries
20150725 19:12:04< mulander> there's plenty to pick from
20150725 19:12:11< mulander> before a big course change needs to take place
20150725 19:12:15< mulander> imho of cours
20150725 19:12:38< mulander> *course
20150725 19:12:43< mulander> s/gating/getting
20150725 19:13:01-!- c74d changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Wesnoth Developers Channel | >>> Want to help? Go here: http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911 (and thanks!) <<< | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Bug tracker: http://bugs.wesnoth.org
20150725 19:13:33-!- [Franklin] [~franklin@unaffiliated/franklin] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150725 19:13:55< Gravis> you guys really need to seperate your data from your engine
20150725 19:14:14< c74d> alas
20150725 19:14:38-!- [Franklin] [~franklin@cpe-71-71-39-6.triad.res.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 19:14:42< c74d> too late, I'm afraid.
20150725 19:14:52< Gravis> it's never too late
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20150725 19:15:26< c74d> ...although I guess now, with the development team having shriveled up, *might* be a good time to split them.
20150725 19:16:05< c74d> only "*might*" because the project is now getting an influx of new people wanting to contribute
20150725 19:16:12< tetha> could also allow us to get individual travis builds for the python tools in different python versions ;)
20150725 19:16:46< zookeeper> Gravis, why would we?
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20150725 19:17:30< Gravis> zookeeper: so that engine people can focus on working on the engine and content people focus on work on the content
20150725 19:17:50< Gravis> zookeeper: shouldn't take forever to clone a repo
20150725 19:18:04< [Franklin]> you could do a shallow clone
20150725 19:18:19< zookeeper> Gravis, but the engine people can't work on on the engine without the content anyway
20150725 19:18:28< pydsigner> zookeeper: Use a subproject
20150725 19:18:57< Gravis> zookeeper: yes but when the content changes while you are changing the engine, you might think you have done something wrong
20150725 19:19:25-!- lipkab [~lipkab@host-91-147-210-193.biatv.hu] has quit [Quit: Távozom]
20150725 19:19:50< zookeeper> Gravis, eh, i wouldn't worry about that at all, if that's ever happened to someone then it has been exceedingly rare. the fundamental parts of the content almost never change.
20150725 19:20:23< Gravis> still.  it's easier to make new content if the engine and content aren't hopelessly integrated
20150725 19:20:38< Psenfilip> Hi all
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20150725 19:21:28< pydsigner> I will also point out that as 1.13 (did I get the version right?) add support for "cores" as addons,
20150725 19:21:28< zookeeper> Gravis, well, they'd still be integrated, just in separate repos or subprojects or something
20150725 19:21:38< pydsigner> zookeeper: Ofc
20150725 19:24:09< aeth> If there's a complete separation of engine and data there's always a possiblity that someone could write a new engine, too.
20150725 19:25:03< zookeeper> i'm not saying no one's ever had a problem where they've worked on the engine and pulled some content changes and got confused about why their specific testcase behaves differently (or similar), but i'm 99% sure that having such a complete separation between the two would cause an order of magnitude more problems or inconvenience
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20150725 19:26:25< irker547> wesnoth: Lipka Boldizsár wesnoth:master c36edfa30e6b / src/widgets/menu.cpp: Align row contents to available space rather than the full width of the widget. http://git.io/vYuoE
20150725 19:26:34< lipkab> vultraz: ^There goes your fix.
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20150725 19:26:48< pydsigner> Again, I'm just suggesting having the content as a subproject
20150725 19:27:02< zookeeper> i mean the problem is basically that you can't get the source without getting all the assets and their history as well, which arguably can be inconvenient if you need several local clones of the source, but only one clone of the content
20150725 19:27:42< zookeeper> surely one can locally deal with that, if necessary?
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20150725 19:27:59< Psenfilip> So what is the current plan and path forward here on the engine/back end side of things? I'm assuming it is tackling that bug list first and foremost?
20150725 19:28:05< pydsigner> Yes
20150725 19:28:19-!- aquileia [~androirc@176.0.39.20] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 19:28:33< pydsigner> There are also some lists on the wiki entitled Easy Coding and Not So Easy Coding
20150725 19:28:47< aeth> I think one issue would be that the data part is not all under data/ (e.g. there's also po/ and images/). The way git works, if you separated the data from engine repos, wouldn't you need to have it as one directory?
20150725 19:29:19< pydsigner> Hmm this is true
20150725 19:29:21< aeth> I don't see why e.g. you'd want the translations and the data in different repos.
20150725 19:29:30< tetha> note that not everything under data is data, which would make data a strange folder either way.
20150725 19:29:31< pydsigner> Although restructuring would be ncie
20150725 19:29:33< pydsigner> * nice
20150725 19:29:36< Psenfilip> pydsigner: understood
20150725 19:29:36< zookeeper> aeth, yeah the way data is scattered all over the place is not good
20150725 19:30:11< pydsigner> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding http://wiki.wesnoth.org/NotSoEasyCoding
20150725 19:30:26< zookeeper> there's a certain logic to the way it is now, but... the way things actually are doesn't really reflect that
20150725 19:30:38< aeth> There'd need to be restructuring with the intent that the subdirectories could be split into different repos before they can actually be split.
20150725 19:30:39< pydsigner> Notably in NSEC, http://wiki.wesnoth.org/NotSoEasyCoding#SDL_2_.2B_OpenGL_port
20150725 19:31:16< aeth> And I see a lot of .cfg files in data/ are probably very tied to the engine as it is now. Not really data.
20150725 19:31:32< aeth> Lots of programming through the WML.
20150725 19:32:01< tetha> dunno, it's not necessarily engine code.
20150725 19:32:07< tetha> I think the problem is the "data" anti-pattern
20150725 19:32:18< tetha> almost nothing should ever be called "data"
20150725 19:32:25< tetha> in code, that is.
20150725 19:32:26-!- Hnefi [~hnefi@90-228-210-37-no78.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/]
20150725 19:32:36< aquileia> WML_tests.cmd generates 118 errors <-- let me guess, you did a debug build? The tests will all time out because MSVC Debug builds of Wesnoth are too slow (over 20a for startup). I guess I should fix that...
20150725 19:32:43< aeth> well I think the distinction is WML/Lua code and C/C++ code.
20150725 19:33:20< aquileia> a/20a/20s
20150725 19:33:53< tetha> aeth: that's an objective naming I can understand.
20150725 19:35:16< pydsigner> The current structure works but is suboptimal
20150725 19:35:21< Psenfilip> pydsigner: tks for the pointers. I will have a look at it
20150725 19:35:50< zookeeper> separating the engine from the content has never really been a goal; it's all wesnoth. it's supposed to be flexible enough that people can actually create total conversions (not that anyone's made a successful one), but not to make it usable as a general-purpose hex-based TBS engine or anything.
20150725 19:36:01< tetha> then again, I'd doubt a restructuring because everyone yells after a reddit/HN-post is a good idea :)
20150725 19:36:29< aquileia> HnefI: see above
20150725 19:36:31< titonbarua> hi guys 
20150725 19:36:42< aeth> zookeeper: One of the problems with total conerversions (I tried a long time ago) is the menus/etc. code.
20150725 19:36:53< aeth> *conversions
20150725 19:37:01< Psenfilip> I looks to me that the design discussion could be endless. Presumably it is working and has been kicking for quite some time now. Why bashing on it now instead of working on what needs to be done? i.e. bug fixes, lib updates. Then you can come back at it, have the birds eye view again and come to a conclusion where to axe, change, remove and what not. 
20150725 19:37:27< zookeeper> aeth, yes, certainly. i've tried two :p
20150725 19:38:03< aeth> although iirc what really killed my total conversion plan is the art.
20150725 19:38:32< aeth> (or lack of it)
20150725 19:39:13< tetha> hm I know at least 3 people who'd love a hotseat / networking battletech engine. heh.
20150725 19:39:48< pydsigner> Psenfilip: This is also a good point
20150725 19:39:59< mulander> Psenfilip: I completely agree with you, talk is cheap
20150725 19:40:16< tetha> talk is cheap, and a culture of incremental change usually ends up stronger
20150725 19:40:47< Psenfilip> It is certainly a good thing that people have ideas on how to improve this project but given the big list of things to do... It looks like a waste of time arguing over engine rewrites or axe SDL because it is XYZ, etc
20150725 19:41:10< mulander> Psenfilip: the truth is, people wanting to help are already working on a diff
20150725 19:41:17< mulander> the rest of us sit here chatting.
20150725 19:41:19< mulander> myself including
20150725 19:41:25< mulander> *included :)
20150725 19:41:34< Psenfilip> Good to hear
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20150725 19:41:44< tetha> I'm mostly thinking, since sometimes an hour of thought saves a year of work.
20150725 19:41:55< Psenfilip> I'm new here. Just wanted to know what the problem was/is. Maybe I can be of some help, at the very least
20150725 19:42:13< mulander> Psenfilip: I'm also new hear, don't take anything I say as gospel
20150725 19:42:17< aeth> Well, updating SDL makes more sense than replacing it with something else, even if both are lots of work.
20150725 19:42:26< mulander> I would like to help but I know I won't make enough time to be of help
20150725 19:42:41< pydsigner> Also SDL2 is actually on the list of things that are wanted.
20150725 19:42:55< pydsigner> But first things first
20150725 19:43:13< Psenfilip> Whatever the end result coming from my side, it is clear that debating over major rewrites when the actual problems are much bigger than that, is a silly thing to do
20150725 19:43:20< pydsigner> Debugify engine, maintain campaigns, fix Python tools
20150725 19:43:41< pydsigner> ^ These are the priorities
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20150725 19:44:18< tetha> sometimes this channel feels way too much like work.
20150725 19:44:21< tetha> heh.
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20150725 19:45:12< aeth> Rearranging the data files so as much as possible can be split off into a separate repo imo would be a good idea.
20150725 19:45:25< aeth> Hopefully the engine doesn't hard code certain assumptions about the path.
20150725 19:46:17< tetha> same with data/tools.. I'll just need to find a strong answer to zookeeper's concerns of more complex releases ;)
20150725 19:46:27< aeth> Not sure what exactly, but there are some easy cases for "data" that can be split e.g. data/campaigns and data/multiplayer/scenarios
20150725 19:46:35< pydsigner> Regardless, I think that this is probably a discussion that could happen long-term, perhaps in the forum section
20150725 19:46:46< tetha> because "this would be good" vs "this will be my headache with that" is a bad position :)
20150725 19:46:54< pydsigner> It's not a blocking task.
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20150725 19:47:30< pydsigner> We just have to make sure that it a) get addressed sufficiently and b) doesn't eat too much resources.
20150725 19:47:52< pydsigner> And I'm off for now
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20150725 19:49:48< Shadofx> o7
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20150725 20:24:35< exm> http://zdnet4.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2015/06/30/26aa310f-6579-4971-9f41-ff3aaf677140/220b7ac1907329cd7e8443fbe942434e/img5739.jpg
20150725 20:26:02< exm> Oops wrong channel sorry
20150725 20:26:55< baegle> So just weighing in here, to achieve a culture of incremental change that moves in the right direction, the code base and tool chain needs to support rapid iteration and separation of concern. To that end, I think separating "content" (images, audio, data, etc) from code makes rapid iteration faster only if the build system is set up for it.
20150725 20:27:42< baegle> Keeping content with code can absolutely hamper rapid iteration because of unexpected interactions between logic and content. It can also slow things down due to the cost of transferring the assets on clone, copy, etc.
20150725 20:27:59-!- genbattle [~genbattle@122-59-95-202.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150725 20:28:42< baegle> But that's just one example of a hurdle to rapid iteration. I think in order to capture the collective efforts of 90 people, lowering the barrier to creating a local iteration should be a short-term goal. It will pay back in spades.
20150725 20:29:11< iceiceice> baegle: so in theory i think you are right,
20150725 20:29:18< iceiceice> but in practice many of the developers have historically had a hard time with git
20150725 20:29:29< baegle> oh?
20150725 20:29:32< iceiceice> and also these interactions between art and content mostly don't happen any more
20150725 20:30:00< iceiceice> i mean its not like we are redesigning the whole idea of "units" and now need to create tons of ui for them requiring new art interacting with code yadda yadda
20150725 20:30:17< iceiceice> now its usually like, people add more units, in the framework of existing units,
20150725 20:30:26< iceiceice> and the code, like the wml api, changes independently
20150725 20:30:35< c74d> "many of the developers"? I know zookeeper dislikes Git, but who else?
20150725 20:31:03< iceiceice> well it used to be that anytime there was a new contributor they would ask tons of git questions in channel
20150725 20:31:09< iceiceice> thats why i wrote the git crash course :)
20150725 20:31:14< c74d> mhm
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20150725 20:31:41< baegle> iceiceice: do you envision these contributors having git access or using github and pull requests?
20150725 20:31:43< iceiceice> also i think everyone whose not me uses tortoise git or some tool
20150725 20:31:56< iceiceice> b/c of no wanting to use the CLI
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20150725 20:32:19< iceiceice> beagle: the new contributors use pull requests, then at some point we give them push access
20150725 20:32:40< baegle> iceiceice: what branching strategy are you using?
20150725 20:33:10< c74d> baegle: <http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Git_for_Wesnoth_Crash_Course>
20150725 20:33:19< iceiceice> historically we've had branches correspond with versions
20150725 20:33:24< c74d> topic branches
20150725 20:33:57< iceiceice> master is used for development, when we have a stable branch at some point it forks off of master
20150725 20:34:05< baegle> c74d: That document doesn't seem to expose your branching strategy
20150725 20:34:11< baegle> iceiceice: got it, thanks
20150725 20:34:23< pydsigner> iceiceice: For windows devs, Github for Windows has become a viable interface
20150725 20:34:30< c74d> well, I guess that depended on whether you meant "you = iceiceice" or "you = the whole project"
20150725 20:34:57< c74d> pydsigner: is this first-hand?
20150725 20:35:01< pydsigner> Yes
20150725 20:35:05< zookeeper> baegle, for anyone who needs to do that kind of rapid local iteration, surely it's easy to locally hack the data dir out of their clones, so the issue is that if they need to have multiple clones, it'll take a lot of diskspace?
20150725 20:35:30< c74d> pydsigner: to compare, have you tried SmartGit?
20150725 20:35:33< zookeeper> in which case... how would we even split the repo so that it'd also split the history?
20150725 20:35:41< pydsigner> c74d: That I have not.
20150725 20:36:04< zookeeper> pydsigner, github for windows is awful for anything but the simplest tasks
20150725 20:36:12< c74d> zookeeper: a version of the repository with its history "hacked" would not be compatible with un-"hacked" versions of the repository
20150725 20:36:16< baegle> zookeeper: My primary point is that rapid iteration is a value unto itself, regardless of the debate of splitting content from code. If it turns out that splitting content from code can make iterations faster, then I would consider it, but first, I'd look at what the biggest choke point is in the development workflow for rapid iteration
20150725 20:36:48< c74d> zookeeper: however, multiple clones should be unnecessary, with git-new-workdir
20150725 20:37:03< pydsigner> zookeeper: However, most people only need to do the the simplest tasks
20150725 20:37:10< pydsigner> Things like cherrypicking and so on
20150725 20:37:10< iceiceice> yeah git-new-workdir is great
20150725 20:37:49< zookeeper> pydsigner, what? you could cherry-picking as a simple task?
20150725 20:38:06< Guest30999> the company i work at always splits off the game code from the assets - I think it's a very common practice, probably for a reason (just an anon's opinion)
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20150725 20:38:32< pydsigner> zookeeper: Oops, I didn't finish my phrase did I _/_
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20150725 20:38:37< baegle> how do most people here do cross-platform development for wesnoth? Are you all using VirtualBox or QEMU or do you have native hosts?
20150725 20:38:52< pydsigner> There's a lot of VBing going on for testing
20150725 20:39:03< pydsigner> The main packagers have native hosts
20150725 20:39:20< baegle> pydsigner: Does it provide enough support for OSX interface development and fixing Windows bugs?
20150725 20:39:51< pydsigner> I don't think we have people running too many OSX VBs
20150725 20:41:07< pydsigner> * Things like cherrypicking and so on are usually done by project coordinators
20150725 20:41:28< pydsigner> Github for Windows does have a decent git shell though
20150725 20:41:48< pydsigner> c74d: SmartGit looks pretty awesome
20150725 20:41:56< aeth> One advantage of splitting data from the engine: you can now just say "ok, go ahead and try" to anyone who wants to try to rewrite Wesnoth in some other language. The only problem would be the data stuff that's in Lua.
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20150725 20:42:18< aeth> Because anyone could just write their own engine, if they wanted.
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20150725 20:43:08< aeth> Because even porting to Qt etc. should just be done on a 3rd party fork.
20150725 20:43:15< aeth> Most of the very ambitious ideas.
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20150725 20:44:01< aquileia> pydsigner: Their git shell is awesome - I started using GitHub for Windows but after a month I only used that git shell
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20150725 20:44:33< aquileia> I haven't opened the GUI in a year...
20150725 20:44:34< pydsigner> To me, if you're going to get deep into git, you're gonna end up using the CLI.
20150725 20:44:43< zookeeper> pydsigner, one of the biggest failings of github for windows is that it can't merge pulled changes with the local changes, or edit diffs. if you have local changes and you pull and it fails, there's no way to solve it in the GUI without another app.
20150725 20:44:45< aquileia> I agree
20150725 20:45:26 * aquileia meant that you eventually will want to use the CLI
20150725 20:45:28< pydsigner> zookeeper: Hmm, good point
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20150725 20:46:13< pydsigner> When I started, I just used the tool that Geany provided + some GUI visualizers like Giggle
20150725 20:46:43< pydsigner> But now, it's just faster to run git status/git add/git commit
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20150725 20:47:34< pydsigner> I can't claim git expertise but I'm learning
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20150725 20:57:35< aeth> Wow it takes a long time to clone Wesnoth. I guess it's all of the binary files.
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20150725 21:00:48< Guest30999> you should try checking out a 30GB SVN repo
20150725 21:01:28< zookeeper> better to check it out as SVN than git, because at least with SVN you don't have to get the history as well :p
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20150725 21:02:33< Guest30999> but you get the benefit of having the history locally :p
20150725 21:02:38< ashpath> hi
20150725 21:03:18< aeth> zookeeper: Well most/all of the binary files could go into their own git repo which would help a lot
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20150725 21:04:33< aeth> So basicaly there could be a wesnoth-data and a wesnoth-data-music-and-images... probably not all but enough.
20150725 21:05:00< aeth> e.g. separating music/images that are in campaigns probably wouldn't be worth it
20150725 21:05:24< ashpath> I heard you are looking for python people? Who can I talk to for that?
20150725 21:07:49< Guest30999> aeth you could symlink everything to the assets dir
20150725 21:08:46< aeth> Another very minor change that would make a big difference is wesnoth/src adding a wesnoth/src/lib or something so people can immediately tell what are the libraries in the src directory
20150725 21:09:48< aeth> And that could also be split into its own repo
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20150725 21:11:41< aeth> wesnoth/lib would probably make more sense than wesnoth/src/lib
20150725 21:12:34< aeth> wesnoth/misc could be split off as wesnoth-extras or something.
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20150725 21:14:15< aeth> wesnoth/attic could be wesnoth-attic. I think the point of that is people don't need it?
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20150725 21:20:10< Guest30999> Receiving objects:  67% (591315/874420), 1.94 GiB | 1.12 MiB/s
20150725 21:20:18< Guest30999> pretty fast tbh
20150725 21:20:33< jrabbit> that;s huge
20150725 21:21:22< aeth> It was large enough for me to cancel it and start it up again in tmux in case something happened to my ssh session
20150725 21:21:47< aeth> I've very rarely seen huge git clones. There are a few (webkit?)
20150725 21:22:13< jrabbit> aeth: https://git-lfs.github.com/ ?
20150725 21:22:52< aeth> Breaking it up into 6+ repos would help, especially since some of the stuff you're downloading literally are useless (including attic and misc, although misc is just text so it's not bad)
20150725 21:23:12< iceiceice> how much do you think it will really help?
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20150725 21:23:31< iceiceice> i mean, it would be one hting if he amount of source code was really small
20150725 21:23:44< iceiceice> so you could potentially clone just hte sourcecode with a small download
20150725 21:23:46< iceiceice> but its actually not
20150725 21:23:56-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150725 21:24:01< aeth> Look at attic/spare_buttons for instance. Remember git is best for text, not images. And remember, you're not using attic.
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20150725 21:24:10< iceiceice> humm i guess i haven't looked at the size of the src directory in a while
20150725 21:24:30< iceiceice> hmmm
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20150725 21:24:34< iceiceice> ok i see your point i thik
20150725 21:24:56< aeth> The issue isn't a large src, git's designed for the Linux kernel. The issue is images and sound, especially unused files
20150725 21:25:15< shadowm> We've discussed this in the past, no-one really liked the idea hence we went for the whole repository.
20150725 21:25:27< genbattle> think that are non-essential (such as art assets) would be best put in a submodule
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20150725 21:25:39< genbattle> so then you can check out just the source code without them
20150725 21:25:47< shadowm> Each repository split/rewrite is somewhat disruptive to our workflow so I'd rather not even if you held a gun against my head.
20150725 21:25:55< genbattle> lol
20150725 21:26:09< genbattle> fair enough
20150725 21:26:23< aeth> wtf @ all of the images in attic
20150725 21:26:35< shadowm> I'll start reading the logs but anyway, I did say people could ask me if they needed resumable downloads.
20150725 21:26:49< iceiceice> i guess we are packrats :p
20150725 21:26:53< zookeeper> yes, attic is the one thing that probably needs to be removed sooner or later
20150725 21:27:06< zookeeper> but it's so tiny in size that it doesn't really inconvenience anyone
20150725 21:27:25< shadowm> Certainly not, and it doesn't affect the repository's (not the working tree's) size either.
20150725 21:27:47< genbattle> honestly, I don't see anything abnormal for any large commercial project I've ever seen with a long legacy :)
20150725 21:27:47< zookeeper> have fun reading the logs :p
20150725 21:28:50< genbattle> wow lots of forks and stars on github in the last 24 hours
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20150725 21:31:20< genbattle> https://github.com/trending?l=cpp
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20150725 21:36:34< shadowm> Pforce, Elvish_Hunter: We actually have more active Windows devs than Linux devs atm.
20150725 21:38:00< shadowm> I do my stuff on Linux but I generally make sure to test some changes on Windows too using virtual machines and/or (as of a few days ago) a cross-compiling environment.
20150725 21:38:16< iceiceice> what we really need is an os x dev
20150725 21:39:34< genbattle> I'd be surprised if the influx from HN/proggit didn't yield at least a couple of Mac devs
20150725 21:39:39< shadowm> We have two but they don't do C++ or understand how our dependencies work so they can't help with most of our OS X-specific issues.
20150725 21:39:53< shadowm> (mattsc and ancestral, our OS X packagers.)
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20150725 21:40:29< genbattle> I noticed on the bug tracker than bugs don't generally seem to have their affected platforms listed?
20150725 21:41:24< Psenfilip> Talking about OSX, any mac dev around?
20150725 21:41:40< shadowm> Hm, I think all platform-specific bugs have their platform listed eventually. People generally assume correctly that when it comes to e.g. Lua or WML API bugs, the issue will be present on all supported platforms so they don't bother mentioning their configuration.
20150725 21:42:12< shadowm> Same for most (but certainly not all) UI bugs.
20150725 21:43:51< shadowm> Pforce: Most of the time we Linux people use SCons because it's easier to set up compared to CMake, but when I have to release a new version I have to build everything with CMake just to make sure (and update translation catalogues).
20150725 21:43:55< Psenfilip> If any osx dev or maintainer: heads up that this https://gna.org/bugs/?23082 is still a bug if one goes the cmake route.
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20150725 21:44:51< shadowm> I also sometimes build with CMake between releases because CMake is slightly more convenient for building with an arbitrary number of different configurations.
20150725 21:45:36< aeth> shadowm: Anyway, one reason why I would like some cleanup in the structure of Wesnoth on git is because I'd like to try to rewrite large parts of it and I'm probably not the only one based on the Hacker News comments. If it's cleaned up before I start, even if I don't finish some useful things could be merged back in. Otherwise, the first thing I'm going to do in my fork is clean it up a ton so my brain can parse it... which will mak
20150725 21:46:35< c74d> aeth: your message was truncated, ending with "can parse it... which will mak".
20150725 21:46:36< aeth> which will make my fork very hard to merge back in
20150725 21:46:46< aeth> I figured it was probably truncated so I checked http://www.wesnoth.org/irclogs/2015/07/%23wesnoth-dev.2015-07-25.log and noticed
20150725 21:47:00< aeth> It's been years but I remember that logging feature... very useful.
20150725 21:47:33< shadowm> aeth: Large rewrites are near impossible to review, no matter how much you split the repository.
20150725 21:48:16< shadowm> But I guess you are talking of reorganizing src/.
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20150725 21:49:29< aeth> shadowm: well what I mean is (1) separating src into engine and library, (2) splitting the data into its own repo if possible so that I can keep the data current even when the src isn't.
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20150725 21:50:32< aeth> Doing the second part isn't exactly trivial because the data is in: data, doc (?), fonts, icons, images, po, sounds afaik. Also, attic and misc are irrelevant to the program itself.
20150725 21:51:43< shadowm> data and src are heavily dependent on each other, primarily due to GUI2 but also due to the core Lua code.
20150725 21:52:15< aeth> Yes, I've already noticed that Lua is one of the main issues with easily rewriting large parts of Wesnoth.
20150725 21:52:30< shadowm> In particular, if data/gui and src/gui/dialogs aren't synced with each other Wesnoth will die during the GUI2 initialization step before even loading the core WML.
20150725 21:52:39< aeth> "data" isn't really *data*, it includes a lot of programming. It's mostly just "not-cpp", whether it's in WML or Lua.
20150725 21:52:49< shadowm> (I'm generalizing a bit, the conditions are a bit more specific than that.)
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20150725 21:54:58< shadowm> aquileia: Microsoft's RC documentation says it will define RC_INVOKED.
20150725 21:55:23< shadowm> aquileia: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa381032%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
20150725 21:55:48< shadowm> (See, we Linux devs can also learn a few Windows things.)
20150725 21:56:41< aeth> Now that my local copy is downloaded I can do some command line magic to help my brain parse the structure of wesnoth... and it looks like most of the Lua (approximately 11k/15k) is in wesnoth/data/ai
20150725 21:57:20< shadowm> Yaiyan: wmllint's author has done C for much longer than Python so I'm not surprised if it doesn't seen very Pythonic in style.
20150725 21:57:24< aeth> So moving the AI out of data might help with the whole data/code distinction (although it's not perfect, since there's other Lua code, including in some campaign directories)
20150725 21:57:40< shadowm> Much, much longer.
20150725 21:58:08< shadowm> The core Lua is in data/lua.
20150725 21:59:08< shadowm> The AI stuff is probably in data/ai for obvious reasons but I don't think it's used unless a scenario requests it, whereas data/lua contains code that is necessary for WML event processing tow ork at all.
20150725 21:59:21< aeth> Most of the Lua is in data/ai, the core of the lua is data/lua, and there are a few in camapigns, one in multiplayer, and one in test.
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20150725 21:59:34< shadowm> (Since 1.9.x.)
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20150725 21:59:52< sb_> Hey, whichever one of you put up that article on /. did good work for your publicity and you should probably hire them
20150725 22:00:07< shadowm> Yaiyan: If you are interested in the wmllint stuff perhaps you'd like to read this long email by the author: https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2010-02/msg00078.html
20150725 22:00:33< sb_> cmdrtaco maybe
20150725 22:01:19< aeth> check out `find -name \*\.lua` as well as `find -name \*\.lua | grep -v '/ai/'` as well as this: wc -l `find -name \*\.lua`
20150725 22:01:22< aeth> etc.
20150725 22:01:27< aeth> while in the wesnoth/data directory
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20150725 22:01:48< aeth> That's how I got my numbers for most of the Lua being in data/ai
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20150725 22:02:40< aeth> In fact, you can do this in the parent wesnoth directory too: wc -l `find -name \*\.lua`
20150725 22:02:48< aeth> There's only two .lua files outside of data.
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20150725 22:06:50< aquileia> shadowm: I know, I had hoped RC_INVOKED would be a MSVC specific define because (for no good reason) the resource compiler doesn't even have _MSC_VER
20150725 22:07:10< shadowm> What do you need to do with it?
20150725 22:07:16< aeth> btw, for contrast, WML is used *a lot* in Wesnoth, again mostly in data. I'm getting 296 718 lines for: wc -l `find -name \*\.cfg` | less
20150725 22:07:31< shadowm> Is there something I did that Microsoft's RC doesn't accept?
20150725 22:07:55< aquileia> I need to exclude the CREATEPROCESS_MANIFEST_RESOURCE_ID line from wesnoth.rc because it counts as a duplicate manifest on newer MSVC versions
20150725 22:08:56< shadowm> The easiest solution is to just provide separate resource files for MSVC++ versions that can generate their own manifests (and make sure MSVC++ will add the compatibility info).
20150725 22:09:42< shadowm> Perhaps you can make sense of Microsoft's oddly non-specific instructions about the matter: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn481241%28v=vs.85%29.aspx#base.version_helper_apis
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20150725 22:10:30< shadowm> (As in, it does not really specify how this would be done in MSVC++ so I assume it ought to be reasonably trivial for someone who's already using it.)
20150725 22:11:04< aquileia> The resource file and manifest file are fine as long as they stay separate and allow me to merge the compatibility info, all I need to do is comment out that line via #ifndef ...
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20150725 22:13:07< aquileia> The frustrating part is that I can pass /D "_MSC_VER=1600"  to the resource compiler and it still seems to compile that line
20150725 22:13:17< shadowm> Appleman1234__: Let me put it like this. Our (increasingly few) current active devs are not going to be here forever (that includes me). If there aren't other devs ready to take up the mantle, we'll only repeat history and we've already done with some of the devs we ourselves relied on and Wesnoth will be completely abandoned.
20150725 22:13:24-!- Crendgrim [~crend@wesnoth/forum-moderator/crendgrim] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20150725 22:13:47< shadowm> *as we've
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20150725 22:19:59< irker547> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth:master d9b54985611f / src/SConscript: scons: Fix indentation http://git.io/vYzmC
20150725 22:21:49< shadowm> lipkab: The AMD equivalent to Intel VT-x is AMD-V.
20150725 22:23:48-!- Crendgrim_ is now known as Crendgrim
20150725 22:23:50< shadowm> PositiveMD: Yes, CPU virtualization is a hardware-dependent feature as others said, but even on CPUs that support it, motherboard manufacturers will usually disable it by default for some reason, so most people will also have to look in their BIOS or UEFI settings.
20150725 22:24:10< aquileia> loonycyborg: Could you check whether your compiler defines RC_INVOKED in wesnoth.rc ? Are preprocessor definitions carried over to the resource compiler for you?
20150725 22:24:39< shadowm> I think a few motherboard chipsets also simply don't support the feature even if they work with CPUs that do.
20150725 22:24:48< shadowm> aquileia: Yes, it does.
20150725 22:26:13< shadowm> Quoting the windres man page: "--preprocessor program \ When windres reads an "rc" file, it runs it through the C preprocessor first. This option may be used to specify the preprocessor to use, including any leading arguments. The default preprocessor argument is "gcc -E -xc-header -DRC_INVOKED"."
20150725 22:26:22< shadowm> Also, I did test this stuff in case it isn't obvious.
20150725 22:26:55< aquileia> So basically both resource compilers have RC_INVOKED and only that defined? That's inconvenient
20150725 22:28:04< loonycyborg> aquileia: can you tell about the original problem?
20150725 22:28:24< loonycyborg> I don't think it's such a good idea to use conditionalcompilation here anyway
20150725 22:28:44< loonycyborg> or separate resource files
20150725 22:28:54< aquileia> CREATEPROCESS_MANIFEST_RESOURCE_ID	RT_MANIFEST	"wesnoth.exe.manifest"    creates a manifest with ID 1, which conflicts with the one MSVC generates itself
20150725 22:28:59< loonycyborg> better figure out a way to satisfy both resource compiler
20150725 22:29:22< loonycyborg> maybe somehow prevent msvc from generating stuff itself?
20150725 22:29:45< aquileia> I could deactivate manifest generaton, but the most elegant way is merging them (which requires that it doesn't get its own ID beforehand)
20150725 22:30:26< loonycyborg> does it actually generate something useful?
20150725 22:31:02< loonycyborg> something our rc doesn't provide already
20150725 22:32:12< aquileia> I know it adds a few lines, didn't check how relevant they are, let me extract it...
20150725 22:32:16< shadowm> The MSVC++ runtime's side-by-side assembly dependencies, I reckon.
20150725 22:34:20< loonycyborg> Not sure what this means beside it somehow being related to .NET runtime :P
20150725 22:34:21< shadowm> The easiest way to tell whether they are needed or not is check whether Windows gives up on attempting to resolve the resulting image's links to the runtime library.
20150725 22:34:49< shadowm> Side-by-side assemblies actually predate .NET Framework's first public release and are Microsoft's attempt at dealing with DLL hell in Windows XP.
20150725 22:34:51< loonycyborg> hmm or they changed the meaning of "assembly'too
20150725 22:35:04< loonycyborg> oh ok
20150725 22:35:43< shadowm> There they used them to allow old applications to link to the old version of the Common Controls library so as to not get screwed over by Windows XP's themes engine.
20150725 22:36:39< shadowm> Then they started using them to deal with the ever increasing number of version and optimization combinations of MSVC++ runtime libraries.
20150725 22:37:10< aquileia> shadowm, loonycyborg: That's the additional node MSVC generates: http://pastebin.com/xWAQKteD
20150725 22:37:21< aquileia> So you are right, shadowm 
20150725 22:38:15< loonycyborg> hmm might be really needed to tell which runtime library version to use
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20150725 22:40:53< aquileia> I'm compiling with manifest generation deactivated right now, we'll know more in half an hour (I could of course edit the embedded manifest instead, but rebuilding is easier than reading that up)
20150725 22:43:17< shadowm> vultraz, Jozrael: We won't play dirty and use our "contacts" to get on Steam, btw.
20150725 22:44:40< shadowm> That'd be a highly reprehensible move.
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20150725 22:45:56< shadowm> 20150725 18:46:57< nivix> I don't want them to be annoyed the fresh blood is coming around trying to mess with their code
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20150725 22:46:17< Jozrael> Sry d/c'd
20150725 22:46:32< shadowm> Hang on, let me fetch my cane.
20150725 22:46:32< Jozrael> @shadowm, didn't mean to play unfair
20150725 22:47:01< Jozrael> While I'm in the industry, I have no real context on what it requires to get on steam - I'm confident Wesnoth's passed whatever merit bar there is
20150725 22:47:19< Jozrael> So I didn't mean that we should 'play dirty' or anything, sorry if I gave that impression
20150725 22:47:41< shadowm> There's Greenlight for this nowadays.
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20150725 22:49:06< shadowm> We'd need to get on Greenlight as a first step and get the community's approval. For a Greenlight campaign to be successful we'll need to show that we are able to rapidly respond to feedback, especially bug reports (and preferably not have obvious game-breaking bugs like our current lack of proper Retina support).
20150725 22:53:52< shadowm> zookeeper: It is possible to have multiple checkouts of a single clone in Windows if you look into git-new-workdir.cmd.
20150725 22:54:13< shadowm> It's somewhat non-trivial to set up (thanks Microsoft) but highly rewarding.
20150725 22:55:03< zookeeper> shadowm, and "checkout" in this context means..?
20150725 22:55:13< shadowm> *a single repository
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20150725 22:55:51< shadowm> zookeeper: A clone usually consists of a repository (the .git dir) and the contents of the tree (think branch, tag, or commit) you've currently checked out.
20150725 22:56:07< zookeeper> right
20150725 22:56:09< shadowm> (Usually. You can have a bare clone that's just the .git dir.)
20150725 22:56:53< shadowm> For example, here I have a single repository clone with a dozen checkouts, each of them looking at a different branch or tag.
20150725 22:57:27< shadowm> Definitely a dozen: http://pastebin.com/BNF8L8N9
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20150725 22:58:06< shadowm> I can freely change between branches in any of these checkouts or even create a new one without having to re-clone the whole thing.
20150725 22:58:24< Appleman1234__> shadowm, thank you
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20150725 23:00:56< zookeeper> this might be the first time i hear of git "checkouts"
20150725 23:01:15< Appleman1234> shadowm, vultraz says you are the boss, given the original creator of wesnoth has moved on, and so have several other devs, is their a desired team structure Wesnoth is aiming for ? 
20150725 23:01:43< shadowm> zookeeper: Working tree, checkout, same thing.
20150725 23:02:27< shadowm> I call them checkouts because some of the SVN lingo is too deeply ingrained in my head and also the command you use to switch trees (again, think branches, commits, tags) in Git is `git checkout`.
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20150725 23:03:29< zookeeper> fine, i'll remember all this for the next 5 minutes
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20150725 23:04:19< zookeeper> shadowm, but all the checkouts still live in the same dir and you just switch between them like you switch between branches, right?
20150725 23:04:43< shadowm> No, they are independent dirs.
20150725 23:04:51< zookeeper> oh, good
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20150725 23:05:15< shadowm> It's like if you had separate clones but isn't because all the history information is linked to the original clone.
20150725 23:05:49< shadowm> Meaning that if you change a branch's history from one checkout, that change will be immediately visible in the other, etc.
20150725 23:05:51< zookeeper> fancy, but i think i'll pass. it'd probably blow up tortoisegit and the github app anyway.
20150725 23:06:18< aquileia> shadowm: a) It seems to work fine without the dependency node  b) rc.exe /d "_MSC_VER" wesnoth.rc   (which is basically what MSVC is doing)  works fine... why the heck doesn't it work inside MSVC then? I have a suspicion...
20150725 23:06:36< shadowm> I use the command-line client on Windows so I certainly have no experience with how this would interact with front ends (and Windows applications tend to not understand hard and symbolic links anyway, so).
20150725 23:06:55< shadowm> Appleman1234: I'm the current release manager, and Ivanovic was there between me (from 1.2.x through 1.12.0), and isaac before him, and miyo (IIRC) before isaac, and Dave before miyo. Let's not forget I'm just a name in Wesnoth's exceedingly long history (12 years and counting).
20150725 23:07:55< Appleman1234> shadowm, yeah that was my understanding, I am just trying to identify the goals and organisation already in place and desired 
20150725 23:08:06< shadowm> Appleman1234: We've never had a proper team structure beyond Release Manager, i18n Manager (who was the same person with Ivanovic), vaguely-defined group of senior developers, and other developers.
20150725 23:08:28< Appleman1234> there was departments and department heads 
20150725 23:08:36< pydsigner> zookeeper: Hence the term "git new workdir"
20150725 23:08:36< Appleman1234> is what i remember
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20150725 23:09:11< shadowm> We also have an Art Director (Jetrel), and we used to have a head musician, but we don't have that anymore and Jetrel isn't too involved with the project's decision-making process anymore.
20150725 23:09:47< shadowm> The i18n Manager communicates with the Translation Maintainers, and each Translation Maintainer deals with their own team of translators.
20150725 23:09:52< Jetrel> Well, it's more that there haven't been weighty decisions being made WRT art for a while.
20150725 23:10:04< Appleman1234> that was my understanding
20150725 23:10:15< shadowm> That's pretty much all we've ever had in terms of organization for as long as I've been around (2007 - present).
20150725 23:10:43< shadowm> Right now we don't have a well-defined group of senior developers and I don't care much for the designation either.
20150725 23:10:51< Appleman1234> do we want the same structure ? or did we want something different ? 
20150725 23:11:10< shadowm> Most of the people who used to be identified as de facto members of this group have left or disappeared.
20150725 23:12:22< shadowm> As I said, I don't really believe in this "senior developer" designation that was never correctly enforced anyway.
20150725 23:12:40< Appleman1234> Another question is about merge request swamping / bottlenecking  / core review process if that ever happens ?
20150725 23:12:54< Appleman1234> thanks for the clarifications 
20150725 23:13:00< shadowm> Ideally we should have one developer in charge of one area of the code base, but right now that isn't feasible because none of us are absolute experts at what we do.
20150725 23:13:35< Appleman1234> understandable 
20150725 23:13:47< shadowm> So I'd prefer to see how the project evolves from this point onwards first and only then decide what kind of organization we will have.
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20150725 23:13:51< Appleman1234> ok
20150725 23:13:54< Appleman1234> wait and see
20150725 23:13:59< Appleman1234> I understand
20150725 23:14:14< shadowm> Most preferably, one where there isn't a draconian overlord insulting everyone Linus-style.
20150725 23:14:51< Appleman1234> I am wondering if Reviewboard is beneficial for the code review process
20150725 23:15:19< Appleman1234> also are we going to resolved all 744 open issues before working on new features ? or what is the balance of that ?
20150725 23:16:34< pydsigner> The short answer I believe is "no"
20150725 23:16:54< Appleman1234> ok, just checking
20150725 23:17:08< shadowm> I don't have hard figures for that, but I certainly want to see bug fixing activity in master before I can proceed with releasing 1.13.2.
20150725 23:17:44< shadowm> I also certainly want to see new features happen/start to happen before I call everyone to decide on a more concrete roadmap for Wesnoth 1.14.
20150725 23:18:12< Appleman1234> thanks for the information
20150725 23:23:51< Appleman1234> in terms of bug fixing, is just fix the open bugs with highest priority first ?
20150725 23:24:01< Appleman1234> is it*
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20150725 23:25:37< shadowm> I don't think anyone here has ever paid attention to the priority field -- unless the bug's severity is Important, Blocker, or Security, at least.
20150725 23:26:43< shadowm> On the other hand, one could say that a bug's effective priority is a function of its tracker priority and severity values.
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20150725 23:32:59< zookeeper> shadowm, ah, i was just browsing the bug tracker and realized that https://gna.org/bugs/?23497 is possible something i could do myself with my newfound coding mastery
20150725 23:33:09< zookeeper> s/possible/possibly
20150725 23:33:59< shadowm> Perhaps.
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20150725 23:36:15< shadowm> Good luck with that if you try. ;)
20150725 23:36:30< shadowm> (There has to be a reason I've been putting it off after all...)
20150725 23:37:29< zookeeper> i'll try to remember to undertake that after the water's finished
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20150725 23:38:00< iceiceice> Appleman1234: i woudl say the highes priority bug right now, is to fix the thing where muliplayer games no longer support sides being on multiple "teams"
20150725 23:38:11< iceiceice> this made a very nice campaign become unplayable in 1.12
20150725 23:38:18< iceiceice> that's just my 2 cents
20150725 23:38:19< Psenfilip> How do you guys approach testing in general? I'm testing some bug I tackled here using the debug mode, etc. Any other general tips on the engine side of things?
20150725 23:38:56< iceiceice> Psenfilip: i think there's some stuff on the wiki about testing
20150725 23:39:41< shadowm> Well, there is http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoftwareTesting describing regression tests, but I don't think we have an actual guide for ad hoc testing.
20150725 23:39:44< Psenfilip> I'm a newbie here, if that makes sense. I've been reading the code instead because, yeah :) 
20150725 23:40:32< shadowm> We just mainly stumble around with WML [message] probes and :debug :inspect when it involves WML or Lua, and a debugger with break points etc. when it's the game engine.
20150725 23:40:36< zookeeper> depends on the bug, i'd imagine
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20150725 23:40:54< Psenfilip> Yeah I'm on the c++ land
20150725 23:41:45< shadowm> Something that we really ought to explain somewhere is that most code has tiered log statements.
20150725 23:42:16< shadowm> The game defaults to the equivalent of starting with --log-warning=all, meaning only errors and warnings are written to stderr.
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20150725 23:43:03< Psenfilip> Just walked my way into the engine looking to fix the first bug filed here https://gna.org/bugs/?23712 - I have the solution but I don't know how do I assert that is indeed the expected results. It's been a good while last I played it as well... so yeah
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20150725 23:44:50< shadowm> That's somewhat harder to deal with because it involves visual results, but we have the test scenario to help you test things before and after a change: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoftwareTesting (first section).
20150725 23:45:43< shadowm> Since it's the halo code, you'll want to note that halos are used a lot in attack (especially ranged) animations too, and they may also be assigned to map locations as opposed to units.
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20150725 23:46:33< Psenfilip> Yeah this is what I was afraid of
20150725 23:47:13< Psenfilip> Items and many other animations. It is easy to pin down and say: "oh hey, this is how you fix the mage halo". What about all the other cases? I can't say for sure because I do not master the codebase...at all
20150725 23:48:00< shadowm> The easiest way to tell really is to test all these cases -- for unit animations, just spawn a couple of white mages and have them attack each other or something.
20150725 23:48:02< Psenfilip> I mean the fix is probably on a single point because that is not a hack, right. But what if....
20150725 23:48:16< Psenfilip> Right
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20150725 23:51:04< Psenfilip> Good trick with the -t there. It helps a bit
20150725 23:51:28< aquileia> shadowm: BTW, I found the issue... the resource view in MSVC doesn't show the compiled resource file, but what the resource script should produce, thus ignoring that I defined _MSC_VER.
20150725 23:52:39< aquileia> The compiled resource respects my  _MSC_VER define, so conditioning out that line works
20150725 23:56:37< genbattle> what sort of workflow do you guys follow for releases, development trunk, hotfixes etc with git?
20150725 23:57:01< genbattle> it is just all development merged into master, then release out of there, where releases are just tagged from master?
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20150725 23:59:37< shadowm> master is where all development for development versions (all versions 1.x.y where x is an odd number) takes place. We eventually decide to feature-freeze master in preparation for the next stable series, and a new stable branch 1.x is created from master (where x is an even number). Stable releases and the late betas and release candidates leading up to them are tagged from their respective stable branch, and regular development ...
20150725 23:59:43< shadowm> ... releases are tagged from master.
--- Log closed Sun Jul 26 00:00:25 2015