--- Log opened Sun Jul 26 00:00:25 2015
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20150726 00:01:51< shadowm> Stable branches primarily receive bug fixes (usually but not always cherry-picked from master) and translation updates, and rarely receive features needed for critical fixes or addressing usability issues.
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20150726 00:04:20< shadowm> (For example, as a very exceptional thing, the 1.12 branch received a filesystem code overhaul in version 1.11.19 a.k.a. 1.12 Release Candidate 3. Normally that kind of thing would be rejected, but we wanted to solve a longstanding Windows-specific bug with Unicode characters in resource paths.)
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20150726 00:47:29< StandYourGround> I'm curious…  if one became a maintainer of a mainline campaign, what would be the process he would have to go through to eventually implement significant changes, such as changing minor characters?  I'd love to replace that stupid annoying Gryphon in Sceptre of Fire with a sidekick character that would make more sense, like an independent Wraith
20150726 00:49:23< shadowm> I think zookeeper would actually support such a thing.
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20150726 00:49:31< pydsigner> Kreeya!
20150726 00:49:52< shadowm> A prospective maintainer first and foremost needs to be deeply familiarized with the campaign.
20150726 00:50:02< StandYourGround> besides, if Krawg escapes the volcano, why not carry the scpetre away with it?
20150726 00:50:22< StandYourGround> on the other hand, a ghost would be incorporeal, and that would make sense that it couldn't escape with the sceptre
20150726 00:50:23< pydsigner> StandYourGround: I don't know if it was you, but I *know* that someone has mentioned that plot hole
20150726 00:50:35< StandYourGround> probably was me
20150726 00:50:37< shadowm> A person maintaining a campaign will be expected to be able to make decisions like that by themselves, although they will also be expected to be able to discuss this with other people  who care (not just developers).
20150726 00:51:10< pydsigner> But which people do care?
20150726 00:51:22< shadowm> The community at large.
20150726 00:51:31< StandYourGround> the people who managed to finish that campaign even though Krawg was in it.
20150726 00:51:42< StandYourGround> a stupid bird that sucks in caves, and we can't let die
20150726 00:51:46< shadowm> These decisions were previously made internally by a team of three or two people without asking anybody and that sucks.
20150726 00:51:58< shadowm> (Lore decisions, I mean.)
20150726 00:52:05< pydsigner> Ok
20150726 00:52:56< shadowm> Primarily because this means that the community is expected to somehow magically catch up with changes like this, and, believe it or not, someone out there may be sufficiently attached to some aspect of a campaign as to have gone and made a full campaign based on it.
20150726 00:53:04< shadowm> You never know until someone speaks up.
20150726 00:53:05< pydsigner> Also, a Gryphon who is a pain in caves suddenly learns to fly in a cave full of lava
20150726 00:53:27< StandYourGround> and dwarves who can build ANYTHING can't make a ladder
20150726 00:53:38< StandYourGround> because apparently the exit was straight up and out
20150726 00:53:40< pydsigner> shadowm: I feel like this is a True Story?
20150726 00:53:56< shadowm> You have no idea.
20150726 00:53:59< shadowm> :p
20150726 00:54:02< StandYourGround> and no one figured out they could ride the gryphon out
20150726 00:54:13< pydsigner> ^ Mind blown
20150726 00:54:24< pydsigner> I never ever thought of that
20150726 00:54:37< shadowm> That's actually one of the reasons I've never got to the end of SoF.
20150726 00:54:50< shadowm> I know how it ends because I once had to translate it to Spanish, so I know the ending is stupid.
20150726 00:54:57< StandYourGround> would you play it through if Krawg was a useful ghost instead?
20150726 00:55:01< StandYourGround> with a cool name?
20150726 00:55:16< shadowm> That alone wouldn't make a difference to me.
20150726 00:55:28< pydsigner> SoF is really hard period.
20150726 00:55:39< StandYourGround> no healers
20150726 00:55:40< shadowm> (To be fair, the author of SoF himself has expressed shame about including that gryphon in the first place.)
20150726 00:55:41< pydsigner> Although, maybe I'm not a good judge of that....
20150726 00:56:18< pydsigner> THoT solves the no healers problem, although the difficulty there massively ramps up at the end
20150726 00:56:33< StandYourGround> not really.
20150726 00:56:37< StandYourGround> just a lot of chokepoints
20150726 00:56:39< shadowm> I always quit at the part where the dwarves decide to solve their predicament by killing each other.
20150726 00:56:50< pydsigner> shadowm: That's where I quit too
20150726 00:57:02< pydsigner> That scenario is so painful
20150726 00:57:09< StandYourGround> oh, but maybe if the bad dwarves were secretly undead
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20150726 00:57:14< StandYourGround> that would be so unique and unexpected
20150726 00:57:21< shadowm> Oh, I've never gotten to see how it plays out tactics-wise.
20150726 00:57:44< shadowm> I just get completely detached from the story and characters at that point for some reason.
20150726 00:58:03< pydsigner> But that's where we get that really awesome eyes-bugged-out portrait!
20150726 00:58:07< StandYourGround> yeah, I mostly finished it out of a psychotic urge to finish things
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20150726 00:58:16< shadowm> Maybe I just don't find Wesnoth dwarves very deep or likeable.
20150726 00:58:28< pydsigner> They aren't.
20150726 00:58:37< pydsigner> Especially in that story.
20150726 00:58:42< shadowm> Maybe that's why I kind of unconsciously forgot about them when I resumed AtS' development.
20150726 00:58:44< pydsigner> Ugh that guy is such a troll
20150726 00:59:02< StandYourGround> and the whole story ignored the part about the Ruby of Fire corrupting people
20150726 00:59:13< StandYourGround> that could have made it more interesting in some way
20150726 00:59:18< shadowm> Well, no?
20150726 00:59:24< StandYourGround> but no it's "You didn't haggle for enough gold!  DIE!"
20150726 00:59:37< shadowm> King what's his name obviously got corrupted by it.
20150726 00:59:52< pydsigner> That's why he brings it to the Dwarves in the first place
20150726 00:59:53< shadowm> What doesn't make sense is why his subordinate decide to solve the tension by killing him.
20150726 00:59:58< shadowm> No, I mean the dwarf King.
20150726 01:00:02< shadowm> Dwarf Lord.
20150726 01:00:07< shadowm> Durstorm or something.
20150726 01:00:13< pydsigner> Oh yeah
20150726 01:00:21 * pydsigner goes to read that dialog
20150726 01:00:34< pydsigner> Got him from behind too, IIRC
20150726 01:00:40< shadowm> Oh yeah, and the scenario preceding that where they decide to invade the other dwarves.
20150726 01:00:55< shadowm> Or was it that the other dwarves allied themselves with the elves? I don't remember.
20150726 01:01:27< shadowm> Talking of unlikeable characters, I should try to play DM some day.
20150726 01:01:44< shadowm> And get past the "Delfador the Great" thing.
20150726 01:01:58< StandYourGround> the elves are psychos who will do anything to kill dwarves that simply make a business deal with humans...
20150726 01:02:22< shadowm> That was eventually retconned so that they were Landar's rebels.
20150726 01:02:23< pydsigner> They're supposed to be Landar's xenos but yeah
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20150726 01:02:34< StandYourGround> which also makes no sense
20150726 01:02:37< pydsigner> shadowm: Issue with the ruby corruption:
20150726 01:02:39< pydsigner> "You little fool, honor is less important than life! So, I’m ordering Thursagan to give the plans and the ruby to the elves, as a peace offering. Then maybe we’ll walk out of here alive."
20150726 01:02:54< pydsigner> ^ This makes 0.0000000000000 sense.
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20150726 01:03:11< pydsigner> Corrupted by the ruby, he should above all things covet to keep it.
20150726 01:03:26< shadowm> That probably can be changed so that he plans to give them a false Ruby instead.
20150726 01:03:32< StandYourGround> maybe corruption makes dwarves generous by mistake
20150726 01:03:34< StandYourGround> :P
20150726 01:03:36< pydsigner> Lol
20150726 01:03:37< shadowm> I don't know. (zookeeper ^ )
20150726 01:04:10< pxf> is developing open to everyone?
20150726 01:04:34< pydsigner> Pretty much
20150726 01:04:52< StandYourGround> unless you're powershot 
20150726 01:04:56< shadowm> Yes, as long as you aren't a known criminal or terrorist.
20150726 01:04:56< StandYourGround> :P
20150726 01:05:27< pydsigner> * known to us
20150726 01:06:02< DrunkLurker> I don't see how planting bombs and shooting people with a grenade launcher would impede the process of coding, though
20150726 01:06:22< DrunkLurker> Other that it takes some time off the coding, of course
20150726 01:06:39< shadowm> It'd make you a horrible, horrible person.
20150726 01:06:51< pydsigner> DrunkLurker: It doesn't help our bus factor any
20150726 01:07:06< StandYourGround> maybe SoF needs a complete rewrite
20150726 01:07:16< pydsigner> Probably SoF needs a complete rewrite
20150726 01:07:22< DrunkLurker> Hey, it's not like I'm asking you to marry me :D
20150726 01:07:36< StandYourGround> maybe one that actually leaves it ambiguous as to whether the Sceptre itself is even made from the genuine ruby of fire
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20150726 01:07:47< pydsigner> Er
20150726 01:07:52< pydsigner> wat
20150726 01:08:02< pydsigner> How does it shoot fireballs then?
20150726 01:08:02< shadowm> And Wesnoth is supposed to be a nice place where we can share our ideas and create stuff and beat each other with toy weapons.
20150726 01:08:16< shadowm> Or even murder each other in Wesnoth matches, that works too.
20150726 01:08:30< StandYourGround> because if you can get a whole troupe of dwarves to make it after all these struggles, and somehow finish it without killing each other because of it's Ring of Power effect...
20150726 01:08:30< pydsigner> Only with big toy weapons though!
20150726 01:08:43< StandYourGround> then maybe it's a powerful gem, but not even the real ruby of fire
20150726 01:08:51< pydsigner> Wait...
20150726 01:09:00< StandYourGround> plot twist, like Konrad not being a real heir
20150726 01:09:03< pydsigner> Isn't the sceptre less powerful than the original ruby?
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20150726 01:09:27< shadowm> *reveals plot twist* *disappears*
20150726 01:09:29< shadowm> What a twist.
20150726 01:09:30< pydsigner> Even though it's supposed to control and channel it's power
20150726 01:09:32< StandYourGround> whoops
20150726 01:09:42< pydsigner> Careful with your Ctrl-Q!
20150726 01:09:59< DrunkLurker> I have written several draft messages on how being a terrible, terrible person might not even show up in development process. But on second thought, let's not get too deep into mass murder topic :O
20150726 01:10:06< shadowm> The Scepter merely contains and controls the Ruby's power.
20150726 01:10:14< shadowm> Think of it like a power limiter thing.
20150726 01:10:23< StandYourGround> but can you imagine the Ruby simply letting itself be cut?
20150726 01:10:44< shadowm> In mainline canon? Yeah, probably.
20150726 01:10:53< pydsigner> "Exactly. I want you to craft it into a mighty artifact, that will leverage the stone’s power, but contain it also"
20150726 01:11:00< shadowm> In shadowm canon? To an extent.
20150726 01:11:10< pydsigner> It doesn't
20150726 01:11:23< StandYourGround> so someone wants it to be cut.  That doesn't mean they have the faintest clue if it would be possible
20150726 01:11:25< pydsigner> Er no it does
20150726 01:11:32< DrunkLurker> Ruby is, first and foremost, a magical artifact, is it not?
20150726 01:11:35< pydsigner> Yes
20150726 01:11:40< DrunkLurker> Containing magical powers
20150726 01:11:42< shadowm> They go to the other dwarves specifically to obtain the tools required to cut it I believe.
20150726 01:11:48< pydsigner> Yep
20150726 01:11:54< pydsigner> To rent them
20150726 01:11:59< DrunkLurker> So nothing really strong enough to protect itself from being bashed with a hammer
20150726 01:12:01< shadowm> Nah, steal them.
20150726 01:12:18< pydsigner> Originally to rent them, or at least that what the rest of the group thought
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20150726 01:12:32< shadowm> The assumption here is that the Ruby isn't a sentient artifact.
20150726 01:12:47< pydsigner> Right
20150726 01:12:59< shadowm> I prefer my version where SoF is a highly embellished tale based on a true story.
20150726 01:13:12< pydsigner> ~_~
20150726 01:13:15< shadowm> (I mean, how else do you explain the stupid talking gryphon.)
20150726 01:13:26< DrunkLurker> Genetic experiments
20150726 01:13:33< pydsigner> The problem is that a lot of people don't enjoy SoF
20150726 01:13:44< pydsigner> Especially the people talking in this channel right now :P
20150726 01:13:54< pydsigner> The other issue is
20150726 01:13:56< shadowm> One dev, a user, another user, another dev (vultraz) maybe?
20150726 01:14:05< c74d> I just assumed from that that all Irdyan gryphons could talk.
20150726 01:14:07< pydsigner> If it's an embellished tale,
20150726 01:14:08< shadowm> Does the community at large feel SoF is a waste of time?
20150726 01:14:23< pydsigner> Then how does anyone know of it?
20150726 01:14:26< StandYourGround> okay, how about the Ruby is stolen from Wesnoth by a concerned insider who's trying to protect the king from himself...
20150726 01:14:27< shadowm> I mean, no devs like NR but the community does, so we keep it.
20150726 01:14:40< StandYourGround> so instead of elves, we've got the King's men on his orders to intercept the Ruby
20150726 01:15:04< shadowm> pydsigner: Shenanigans.
20150726 01:15:12< pydsigner> Alanin leaves the party after the shorbear disaster
20150726 01:15:26< pydsigner> And then LAVA RISES EVERYONE DIES
20150726 01:15:35< DrunkLurker> I think that asking "community at large" should be done in a place other than the dev channel
20150726 01:15:41< pydsigner> Except for the Gryphon.... whose an embellishment
20150726 01:15:45< pydsigner> * who's
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20150726 01:16:07< StandYourGround> the embellishment should still be a ghost
20150726 01:16:23< shadowm> DrunkLurker: Of course, but some of the people here might have a general idea of how the community feels about SoF before we proceed to the next step.
20150726 01:16:28< pydsigner> Oh, and the other fail thing is,
20150726 01:16:46< pydsigner> How does the sceptre not get embedded in hardened lava?
20150726 01:16:59< StandYourGround> it did
20150726 01:17:05< pydsigner> The sceptre is finished, but that whole cavern is filled with lava
20150726 01:17:09< StandYourGround> but then trolls smashed through 
20150726 01:17:10< shadowm> How does it not melt, you mean?
20150726 01:17:17< StandYourGround> because it's magic
20150726 01:17:27< fwiffo> shadowm: True enough, but even their representation of other people's opinion would be biased. What I mean is, if you want to ask a lot of people - just ask them in some more public place
20150726 01:17:29< shadowm> A wizard did it, yep.
20150726 01:17:32< fwiffo> aw damn
20150726 01:17:33< pydsigner> Not that so much as "how did anyone find it?"
20150726 01:17:42< StandYourGround> the spirit of Thursagan 
20150726 01:17:47< StandYourGround> protects his work
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20150726 01:18:13< pydsigner> Reportedly from HttT, random goblins and such move it around without ever realizing its true value
20150726 01:18:17< pydsigner> But
20150726 01:18:21< pydsigner> That makes no sense
20150726 01:18:30< pydsigner> Well no
20150726 01:18:33< pydsigner> I guess it does
20150726 01:18:35< pydsigner> Maybe
20150726 01:18:40< shadowm> If we need to reach out to the community, we have Writers' Forum for discussing things like this: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewforum.php?f=32
20150726 01:18:55< pydsigner> The aura has been limited supposedly by the sceptre
20150726 01:19:13< shadowm> Alternatively/additionally someone can ask for creating a poll in Users' like "do you think Krawg is Wesnoth's Jar Jar Binks and should get the axe? [y/n]".
20150726 01:19:29< shadowm> (Okay, that's not a point of contention but it's a good example.)
20150726 01:19:37< fwiffo> Yep, that's what I'm hinting at - even a poll on the forum would work
20150726 01:19:55< fwiffo> The additional public activity might also have positive side effects
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20150726 01:19:57< StandYourGround> I think that SoF is Wesnoth's Star Wars Christmas Special
20150726 01:20:00< fwiffo> Finally
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20150726 01:20:40< shadowm> But the thing is even though I prefer to ignore SoF for my own canon, I'd rather not drop it from mainline because it's one of the two only dwarf campaigns we have.
20150726 01:21:00< shadowm> So it's filling an important gap there.
20150726 01:21:02< pydsigner> SoF has 10/202 topics/posts
20150726 01:21:11< pydsigner> Well,
20150726 01:21:15< shadowm> Whereas we have how many elf campaigns again?
20150726 01:21:20< StandYourGround> maybe if I thought about it a while, I could draft some alternate storylines...
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20150726 01:21:24< pydsigner> that and THoT is based entirely on SoF
20150726 01:21:34< StandYourGround> only for the hammer part
20150726 01:21:36< shadowm> Three if we don't count UtBS.
20150726 01:21:49< shadowm> pydsigner: Yeah, true.
20150726 01:21:50< StandYourGround> no, that's a "Desert elf" campaign
20150726 01:21:53< StandYourGround> TOTALLY different
20150726 01:22:04< pydsigner> It has like, 4 different units!
20150726 01:22:06< shadowm> Not really, not right now though that's going to change "soon".
20150726 01:23:00< pydsigner> Are we counting all campaigns where you play elves at any time?
20150726 01:23:03< DrunkLurker> Aha. "Sometime between now and the heat death of the universe"
20150726 01:23:17< pydsigner> NR, DM
20150726 01:23:17< shadowm> Hopefully within the next couple of months.
20150726 01:23:31< shadowm> pydsigner: No, only those where they serve as the primary playable faction.
20150726 01:23:51< DrunkLurker> Anyways, time to clear the dust off that github client
20150726 01:24:01< shadowm> HttT has elves and human horsemen, AOI has elves, LoW has elves as far as the eye can see.
20150726 01:24:23< pydsigner> I don't think anyone is debating that we have enough campaigns about elves
20150726 01:24:25< StandYourGround> but at least the dwarves kinda make a little sense 
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20150726 01:24:30< shadowm> (Yes, HttT also gets a few dwarf units but you don't get to use them much and it's really late in the campaign.)
20150726 01:24:46< shadowm> pydsigner: Nah, I was using them for juxtaposition.
20150726 01:25:00< pydsigner> Right as you are about to go out into the plains lol
20150726 01:25:06< pydsigner> I still used them though
20150726 01:25:19< DrunkLurker> Armor bonuses are still nice
20150726 01:25:27< pydsigner> Dwarven Lords are brutal on the undead and orcs you fight
20150726 01:25:30< shadowm> Well, yes, but their usefulness only lasts for three scenarios unless you unlock the secret unbalanced scenario.
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20150726 01:25:40< shadowm> Move and defense-wise, at least.
20150726 01:25:56< pydsigner> As I said, I still used them
20150726 01:26:17< DrunkLurker> Or if you lost most of your elf/human veterans earlier, like I did on my first playthrough
20150726 01:26:18< shadowm> Of course there are different playstyles, just like there are people who would play HttT using only Elvish Shamans too.
20150726 01:26:30< pydsigner> Otherwise you're left with just a few surviving outlaws to provide impact
20150726 01:27:05< shadowm> By that point you have a zillion max-level elves, though.
20150726 01:27:15< pydsigner> Oh man, I just remembered that I used to call all Outriders by the name of my first Outrider
20150726 01:27:27< pydsigner> I can't remember what he was named though D:
20150726 01:27:28< StandYourGround> both dwarf campaigns kinda stink, come to think of it
20150726 01:27:31< shadowm> Hurl a well-defended Enchantress at a lich and he'll be done in a couple of turns.
20150726 01:27:46< shadowm> (Or even less, if you get lucky.)
20150726 01:28:12< pydsigner> [Or if you saveload]
20150726 01:28:13< shadowm> You will most likely even have a Sylph by that point.
20150726 01:28:42< shadowm> If playing my own campaign recently has taught me anything it's that Sylphs are OP as hell.
20150726 01:28:49< pydsigner> This is true
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20150726 01:28:59< pydsigner> Mostly any level 4 is OP
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20150726 01:29:08< StandYourGround> except for great mage
20150726 01:29:10< pydsigner> But 5-strike flying magi.....
20150726 01:29:20< pydsigner> AWESOME!
20150726 01:29:33< shadowm> We should probably look into nerfing her slightly.
20150726 01:29:40< StandYourGround> they're rare enough
20150726 01:29:42< shadowm> It's not like the MP crowd will even notice, right?
20150726 01:29:53< pydsigner> They'll still complain heh
20150726 01:30:03< StandYourGround> and overuse of Sylphs leads to wasted XP
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20150726 01:30:07< shadowm> It can't be any worse than the bats debacle.
20150726 01:30:13< StandYourGround> which means eventually the rest of the army suffers
20150726 01:30:38< pydsigner> I'll tell you what leads to wasted XP in HttT: Using Delfador
20150726 01:30:54< shadowm> Delfador, the patron saint of Wesnoth newbies.
20150726 01:31:05< pydsigner> Ahahaha
20150726 01:31:17< shadowm> I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing.
20150726 01:31:31< pydsigner> As a n00b, I think I amla'd Delfador 3 times in HttT
20150726 01:31:40< pydsigner> That's a bad thing.
20150726 01:31:50< shadowm> It's better to let them crash into the tactical wall in Siege of Elensefar than to have them ragequit in frustration in scenario 2.
20150726 01:31:56< StandYourGround> I want a solo Delfador scenario in HttT where you actually have to use strategy with him
20150726 01:32:23< StandYourGround> he can be overwhelmed
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20150726 01:32:38< pydsigner> Scenario 1 would be bad enough without him
20150726 01:33:01< pydsigner> It's kinda wierd
20150726 01:33:12< pydsigner> The first campaign you play starts with a runner scenario
20150726 01:33:31< StandYourGround> where the units that must be kept alive are the slowest in forest
20150726 01:33:39< pydsigner> Yep
20150726 01:33:52< DrunkLurker> Scenario 1 is doable without him, but only if you're already familiar with the game
20150726 01:33:55< StandYourGround> despite growing up with elves
20150726 01:34:05< pydsigner> Yep
20150726 01:34:15< StandYourGround> Konrad ought to have more elvish move costs
20150726 01:34:40< pydsigner> On hard, S1 is killer
20150726 01:34:41< StandYourGround> and defenses
20150726 01:34:51< pydsigner> For me anyways
20150726 01:34:59< StandYourGround> comparable to a Fighter
20150726 01:35:20< DrunkLurker> Should not be that hard, as long as you don't get too attached to your units
20150726 01:35:52< DrunkLurker> It does make the process of snowballing harder, though
20150726 01:36:04< shadowm> HttT stopped being the first campaign for a while, then we brought it back to the top because of the characters.
20150726 01:36:26< shadowm> I *think* we also had a poll.
20150726 01:36:40< pydsigner> IMO, TSG is a better first campaign
20150726 01:36:46< pydsigner> As far as difficulty
20150726 01:37:20< shadowm> AToTB was the first campaign before HttT was brought back.
20150726 01:37:28< StandYourGround> full of what makes a Wesnoth campaign great.  Like tomato surprises for every choice you make you don't realize until the end
20150726 01:37:45< StandYourGround> AToTB is a nice short campaign
20150726 01:37:49< StandYourGround> feels like a tutorial
20150726 01:37:53< pydsigner> That is pretty smelly
20150726 01:38:02< pydsigner> I would agree with that on AToTB
20150726 01:38:22< pydsigner> I guess it does have some dialog-inserted tutorialness
20150726 01:38:43< pydsigner> TSG with elven path: easy easy
20150726 01:38:55< StandYourGround> TSG with outlaw path…
20150726 01:38:58< pydsigner> TSG with outlaw path: :O
20150726 01:39:07< pydsigner> WHAT HAVE I DONE!
20150726 01:39:24< pydsigner> I just got around that part by avoiding the encampment
20150726 01:39:37< pydsigner> That way you don't actually have to take them out
20150726 01:39:38< StandYourGround> and TSG introduces us to elvish liches as HoT does with dwarven liches..
20150726 01:39:46< StandYourGround> and this is never brought up again
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20150726 01:40:14 * shadowm has never played the TSG outlaw branch.
20150726 01:40:26< pydsigner> It's dark
20150726 01:40:33< StandYourGround> Or the whole idea of elves communicating with mages and inviting them to tea in AoI…
20150726 01:40:49< shadowm> There's the Rocks Fall Everybody Dies scenario, right?
20150726 01:40:53< pydsigner> Yes
20150726 01:41:09< pydsigner> Last as long as possible to give yourself a chance in the last scenario
20150726 01:41:24< pydsigner> But you're gonna die
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20150726 01:41:46< pydsigner> Which isn't a bad thing per se but....
20150726 01:41:58< StandYourGround> welcome to wesnoth, noob
20150726 01:42:09< pydsigner> TSG as a whole gets really dark after half-way through
20150726 01:42:18< pydsigner> In the "Valley of Tears" or whatever
20150726 01:42:43< StandYourGround> then there's EI
20150726 01:42:55< StandYourGround> that escelates quickly
20150726 01:43:00< StandYourGround> then it ends with… a duel
20150726 01:43:02< pydsigner> The runner campaign to end all runner campaigns
20150726 01:43:13-!- Psenfilip [b3bbad40@gateway/web/freenode/ip.179.187.173.64] has quit [Quit: zzz]
20150726 01:43:43< pydsigner> Oddly enough, it perpetrates the whole "powerful mage disappears when you most need him" cliche
20150726 01:43:58-!- nemaara [~nemaara@75-144-69-81-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150726 01:44:24< pydsigner> In which the bad guy cheats. Shock.
20150726 01:45:02< shadowm> Does it?
20150726 01:45:06< pydsigner> "I'm going to bend the rules just enough to make it hard for you to kill me"
20150726 01:45:18< shadowm> I'm fairly sure I had Dacyn when I last played.
20150726 01:45:19< pydsigner> shadowm: First scenario, Dacyn runs away
20150726 01:45:22< StandYourGround> oh well.  Even the best Wesnoth campaigns are arguable derivative of something
20150726 01:45:31< shadowm> Oh, well, only for the first scenario.
20150726 01:45:41< pydsigner> And doesn't come back until you're going to fight trolls
20150726 01:45:45< StandYourGround> Kinda like IFTU and Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
20150726 01:45:56< shadowm> Eh.
20150726 01:46:03< shadowm> IftU wut?
20150726 01:46:28< pydsigner> IftU is about Galas
20150726 01:46:35< StandYourGround> the basic plot of LoZ: Twilight Princess is, peaceful kingdom attacked by overpowered bad guys from a parallel universe
20150726 01:46:46< StandYourGround> and the hero teams up with a powerful creature of darkness
20150726 01:47:03< shadowm> And LoZ is about the main hero Zelda, right? ;) </troll>
20150726 01:47:15< shadowm> But, that's actually news to me. I've never played any Legend of Zelda games.
20150726 01:47:43< shadowm> Or console games in general.
20150726 01:47:44< nemaara> ^ as a writer, I can tell you that bringing up the word "plot" is not a good idea 
20150726 01:47:54< shadowm> Or games in general.
20150726 01:47:58< nemaara> because there are *very* few unique "plots" 
20150726 01:48:05< nemaara> that you can do any more
20150726 01:48:13< StandYourGround> heh
20150726 01:48:24< DrunkLurker> Nothing bad with a little copypasting here and there
20150726 01:48:30< nemaara> a lot of story-telling is in the execution
20150726 01:48:39< StandYourGround> like I said, "Nothing bad with a little copypasting here and there"
20150726 01:48:41< pydsigner> You don't copy-paste plots
20150726 01:48:41< StandYourGround> am I right?
20150726 01:48:48< shadowm> Not copypasting, just "inspiration" and "homages".
20150726 01:49:04< DrunkLurker> However you decide to phrase it 
20150726 01:49:05< nemaara> in literature, this is referred to as referencing another work
20150726 01:49:07< nemaara> nothing wrong with it
20150726 01:49:15< pydsigner> Allusion
20150726 01:49:15< shadowm> There's a subtle difference between a homage and an outright rip-off.
20150726 01:49:33< nemaara> John Williams would like a word with you :3
20150726 01:49:42< nemaara> jk, not going there
20150726 01:49:48< DrunkLurker> That's why I added that it was LITTLE copypasting!
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20150726 01:57:20< StandYourGround> back to SoF:  The problem with that campaign is that the main plot itself is so short and basic that every single scenario is just filler action to pass the time
20150726 01:58:08< nemaara> SoF is rather one dimensiona, yes
20150726 01:58:10< nemaara> dimensional
20150726 01:58:13< StandYourGround> really, all the lore needs to know is that someone made the Ruby into a Sceptre, and it got lost somehow
20150726 01:59:09< StandYourGround> there's got to a better story to show that happening
20150726 02:01:02< DrunkLurker> Has anyone tested VS2015 yet?
20150726 02:03:03-!- Krikey_Sanchez [~spacecake@204.28.118.156] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
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20150726 02:07:50< Anticipation> Good morning everyone, how are we all going? :)
20150726 02:08:24< shadowm> Hi there.
20150726 02:09:52< DrunkLurker> Best description would be
20150726 02:10:03< DrunkLurker> Oh God, please don't let me die today! Tomorrow would be so much better!
20150726 02:13:45-!- scorpion [~scorpion@46.166.188.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20150726 02:13:53< pydsigner> Anticipation: Looking forward to sleep
20150726 02:13:56< pydsigner> :P
20150726 02:14:42-!- Anticipation [~tom@ppp14-2-82-185.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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20150726 02:26:02< pydsigner> By the way, erp, bye SYG...
20150726 02:26:08< pydsigner> Anyways,
20150726 02:26:28< pydsigner> shadowm: I am seeing some dislike for Krawgg reading through the feedbacks on the forum
20150726 02:26:44< pydsigner> * Krawg even
20150726 02:26:52< shadowm> Yeah, I do remember it wasn't just the author and zookeeper.
20150726 02:26:56< pydsigner> For instance "Again I say immature and childish, especially Krawg."
20150726 02:27:23< pydsigner> "The dialog was good... until the gryphon talked... It's one of those speech styles where you either love or hate it, and I fell in the latter group."
20150726 02:28:03-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD111107166232.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20150726 02:30:33< shadowm> I've never really thought much about it, really.
20150726 02:31:12< shadowm> It's like some sort of fixture I can happily ignore while playing.
20150726 02:33:36< pydsigner> "However, the dialog may be the worst of any mainline campaign. It suffers from being childish."
20150726 02:33:44< pydsigner> Well heh.
20150726 02:33:48< pydsigner> This is you then:
20150726 02:33:58< pydsigner> "The overall effect on me was I started ignoring the storyline and just fighting the fights."
20150726 02:34:01< nemaara> in SoF?
20150726 02:34:05< shadowm> Me?
20150726 02:34:31-!- jstitch [~user@189.141.87.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150726 02:34:38< pydsigner> nemaara: Yes, SoF
20150726 02:34:57-!- Exaeta [~Exaeta@2601:c2:8404:30d0:9d63:6ffb:4bd4:d80f] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150726 02:35:01< pydsigner> I'm quoting from the handy-dandy feedback collecting topics
20150726 02:35:11< Exaeta> Need a C++ developer? 
20150726 02:35:20< nemaara> I am inclined to agree: the dialogue and storyline in SoF were rather poor
20150726 02:35:38< shadowm> Past me: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=258603#p258603
20150726 02:35:42< pydsigner> Exaeta: Would be handy
20150726 02:35:48< shadowm> Exaeta: We need as many as we can get.
20150726 02:36:30< pydsigner> shadowm: Nevermind then
20150726 02:36:48< pydsigner> There's a lot of complaint about the dialog being fail though
20150726 02:36:54-!- jocamar [5e842a4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.132.42.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150726 02:37:17< Exaeta> I'm decent with the core C++ language. I'm looking for a larger project to get experience with.
20150726 02:38:12< Exaeta> Are you using C++14?
20150726 02:38:25< shadowm> Nah, C++03.
20150726 02:38:34< Anticipation> I'm looking at https://gna.org/bugs/?14138 from the easy coding project page (option for only registered players in multiplayer games). I'm going to look around the source files and figure out what's going on here and get back to you guys when i have more questions or an idea of how to approach it.
20150726 02:38:40< Exaeta> Oh god. noooo. lol
20150726 02:38:47< Exaeta> What build system?
20150726 02:38:49< shadowm> I know, it sucks. But I don't feel we are in the right position to deal with that right now.
20150726 02:38:54< Exaeta> Have you heard of makepp?
20150726 02:39:11< shadowm> Hm, no, not really.
20150726 02:39:28< shadowm> We use SCons and CMake primarily. Windows and OS X devs tend to do their own thing.
20150726 02:39:29< vultraz> If someone were willing to help us transition to C++11 or later, we wouldn't say no.
20150726 02:39:44< Exaeta> Or make++. It's like a better make. It scans the files to look at #includes and check if any #includes have changed.
20150726 02:39:52< shadowm> vultraz: It requires a degree of familiarity with the codebase to be able to deal with any weirdness that may arise.
20150726 02:40:07< shadowm> Especially since there's already an amount of conditionally compiled-in C++11 code.
20150726 02:40:41< shadowm> Exaeta: I believe both SCons and CMake already take care of source dependency checks for us.
20150726 02:41:13-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD111107166232.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150726 02:41:18< shadowm> Anticipation: For master, you'll probably want to have a look at src/game_initialization for the UI/client stuff, and src/server for wesnothd (the MP server).
20150726 02:41:37< Anticipation> shadowm: Thanks :)
20150726 02:41:50< pydsigner> "Here's my problem--how does an Orc manage to find a scepter in a sunken volcanic mess. Does this ever get explained?"
20150726 02:41:55< pydsigner> ^ My question
20150726 02:42:52< Exaeta> Your coding standards say C++11 is not allowed :s
20150726 02:43:00< Exaeta> Isn't it supported on all OSes now?
20150726 02:43:18< Exaeta> Mac OSX spearheads clang, and I think windows supports it too.
20150726 02:43:44< shadowm> Mostly, but, for example 1.12.x is still supposed to run on Debian oldstable and Ubuntu 12.04 (with some slight build-time concessions).
20150726 02:44:48< shadowm> We only started pushing 1.13.x releases recently so we may reconsider the C++14/C++11 situation later down the road, in particular depending on how many new developers we manage to attract over the next few months.
20150726 02:45:49< pydsigner> It will probably be long enough until 1.14 that 12.04 will be EOL
20150726 02:46:17< Psenfilip> boost libs are a pain on their on, why would anyone pile more of that with cpp14 anyway? :p
20150726 02:47:13< shadowm> We already use some Boost code that's found its way into C++11 anyway.
20150726 02:47:18< Exaeta> C++14 is very nice.
20150726 02:47:32< shadowm> Tuples, shared pointers, unordered_map, bind.
20150726 02:47:33< pydsigner> Although hmm, 12.04.5 isn't EOL until 2017
20150726 02:48:05< Exaeta> Can't you just require users to download a newer compiler? :s
20150726 02:48:25< Exaeta> I think you can get a newer compiler even on old operating systems.
20150726 02:48:31< shadowm> Oh, can't forget Boost.Foreach.
20150726 02:48:39< Psenfilip> Like downloading a new compiler automagically makes your code better
20150726 02:48:53< shadowm> We also use that all over the place and range-based for is pretty much the same thing with a fancier name.
20150726 02:49:06< Exaeta> Psenfilip: A new compiler lets you compile C++14
20150726 02:49:39< pydsigner> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17905832/is-the-gnu-compiler-that-comes-with-ubuntu-12-04-not-compliant-with-c-11
20150726 02:50:03< shadowm> Exaeta: It is possible to build a newer version of GCC on Debian oldstable for example, but it's not very convenient -- especially not for packagers who aren't even allowed this option.
20150726 02:50:25< shadowm> Not that I'm saying packagers are the matter for this particular case.
20150726 02:50:55< shadowm> Also, there's the task of building the compiler, and then there's the task of building and installing the C++ library.
20150726 02:51:54< shadowm> pydsigner: Yeah, I'm aware of that and clang's equivalent page, but no idea about MSVC++.
20150726 02:52:19< shadowm> Also, interestingly, we have vultraz stuck with an old GCC version for no good reason.
20150726 02:52:42< Psenfilip> shadowm: the more you describe the process the clearer it becomes how dumb it would be for little to no benefits. You guys already have all that lock and loaded with the current libs. More than enough I would say. One day, if ever, it could be good to axe it in favor of std=c++11 tho
20150726 02:52:48< Exaeta> What's the wesnoth git url?
20150726 02:52:59< rettaw> I first read that like it was some sort of bullying towards vultraz
20150726 02:53:03< shadowm> Exaeta: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth
20150726 02:53:20< vultraz> shadowm: it won't compile on newer because the boost libs I use were compiled against it
20150726 02:53:42< shadowm> I am aware, because this was a thing I had to keep in mind when crosscompiling Wesnoth the other day.
20150726 02:54:25< shadowm> The solution is to build Boost on a newer toolchain, but guess what, Boost uses an arcane build system that doesn't like to be used.
20150726 02:54:34< shadowm> *to be used by non-Boost developers.
20150726 02:54:59< shadowm> So you'd either have to learn to build your Boost libraries on the new compiler or get someone else to do it for you.
20150726 02:54:59< pydsigner> "Yay, let's make a compatibility library that'
20150726 02:55:10< pydsigner> * "Yay, let's make a compatibility library that's hard to build!"
20150726 02:55:26< Psenfilip> once you go the boost route you have to commit. The boost arrow... you never go back lol
20150726 02:55:45< shadowm> It's not a compatibility library. More like a utility library that also happens to be sort of a staging area for future technical proposals for the committee.
20150726 02:57:32< pydsigner> Regardless, hard to use toolkits are pains
20150726 02:57:54< shadowm> That's why it's so great being on Linux and not having to build anything on my own.
20150726 02:58:04< Exaeta> What kind of development do you need the most? I'm most interested in optimization problems.
20150726 02:58:11< shadowm> As long as I can bear with old versions.
20150726 03:00:24< shadowm> Exaeta: We mainly need people able to maintain our existing codebase and fix bugs. Investigating and fixing inefficiencies is aligned with these goals, but I wouldn't worry *too much* about it.
20150726 03:00:37< Exaeta> ok
20150726 03:00:49< shadowm> Let me put it like this: someone once decided to replace std::string everywhere with their own "optimal" implementation.
20150726 03:00:58< Psenfilip> lol
20150726 03:01:00< pydsigner> O.o
20150726 03:01:02< shadowm> The result was unreadable and unmaintainable code and we had to revert that.
20150726 03:01:02< vultraz> o_O
20150726 03:01:22< rettaw> how optimal was it?
20150726 03:01:22< shadowm> There are other trees in the forests to focus on.
20150726 03:01:22< Anticipation> Are there any platforms that Wesnoth has performance problems? I remember playing this on my ancient computer at like five years ago.
20150726 03:01:54< shadowm> rettaw: No-one really ever found out since it broke the whole thing and this person left.
20150726 03:02:04< DrunkLurker> I wonder why would anyone try to replace std:strings here
20150726 03:02:06< rettaw> sub-optimal
20150726 03:02:06< Psenfilip> The best strings are none at all. I've played Wesnoth even on a Pentium 2 if I remember correctly
20150726 03:03:05< DrunkLurker> shadowm: I guess I'll copy my message from the forum here as well. I'd also like to volunteer as a C++ programmer - just in case
20150726 03:03:08< shadowm> Anticipation: I have a rather beefy machine so I don't get to experience this, but I thin some people have mentioned scrolling issues on 1920x1080 screens.
20150726 03:04:23< rettaw> in the hacker news comments there where some people complaining about performance too 
20150726 03:04:36< Anticipation> rettaw: Where's that?
20150726 03:04:39< shadowm> It also seems that terrain building takes an inordinate amount of time on Windows but I'm not sure how much of that is because of virtualization overhead.
20150726 03:04:55< shadowm> (Compared to Linux, both -O3 builds.)
20150726 03:05:36< Anticipation> rettaw: nvm
20150726 03:05:42< Psenfilip> Sure the latest builds can be quite a bit cpu-hog on very high res but yeah. It used to work on very slow cpus (e.g. 500MHz)
20150726 03:05:53< shadowm> DrunkLurker: fwiffo I guess?
20150726 03:06:45< DrunkLurker> yar
20150726 03:07:09< DrunkLurker> I did try to take the same name here for clarity, but it is already registered
20150726 03:07:23< shadowm> Also, Wesnoth uses a lot of RAM and I'm not sure anyone's ever identified the culprit outside the occasional detected leak.
20150726 03:08:12< shadowm> This is not strictly speaking an issue -- web browsers use even more RAM nowadays.
20150726 03:08:45< shadowm> But then there's Android and iOS platforms, which we'd like to some day support in mainline.
20150726 03:08:47 * Polsaker noticed a lot of cpu usage on a shitty machine he has, but he has no idea on how to debug/report/fix that
20150726 03:09:16< shadowm> There's also this which someone has yet to look at: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?23536
20150726 03:09:41< pydsigner> I remember having some really bad CPU troubles years ago on massive MP maps with 7 AI sides + 2 humans
20150726 03:09:43< Psenfilip> a lot of RAM do you mean maybe a lot of SDL_Surface lingering, perhaps? :p
20150726 03:10:14< shadowm> We do have an image cache that probably takes up most of our heap usage.
20150726 03:11:16< shadowm> Although looking too much into that might lead to the conclusion that we should be using textures in video RAM instead, in which case: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/NotSoEasyCoding#SDL_2_.2B_OpenGL_port
20150726 03:11:24< Psenfilip> It is a fair amount I don't think it is that bad. Plenty of atlases in memory, so yeah pretty much expected as far as I could see
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20150726 03:17:00< doofus-01> message for zookeeper - It looks like there has been a lot of response to the call for help.  I think I will wait for the dust to settle
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20150726 03:17:28< DrunkLurker> shadowm: I'll start looking at game code as soon as I get home then
20150726 03:17:48< doofus-01> before trying to take up maintaining a campaign.  You guys probably want new blood, and I don't want to step on anyone's toes.
20150726 03:18:47< doofus-01> I'll check back in after a week or a few.  But I have been around for years, and don't plan to fall off the edge of the earth
20150726 03:19:01< doofus-01> any time soon.
20150726 03:20:15< doofus-01> If there was a scenario re-write that involved some terrain graphics, like that lava you mentioned earlier, I'd be happy to help.
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20150726 03:20:32< UnwiseOwl> Is someone keeping a list of what people have said they might do maintenance/WML-wise anywhere?
20150726 03:21:20< doofus-01> UnwiseOwl, I was thinking similar thoughts...  There is too much irc logs to read.
20150726 03:22:10< UnwiseOwl> Ok...how about I set up a Wiki page?
20150726 03:22:35< Anticipation> I think the was crowed sourced developement works don't *really* worry about it until someone brings something back :P There's no guarantee that people won't disappear.
20150726 03:22:54< UnwiseOwl> Well, that's very true...
20150726 03:23:18< UnwiseOwl> I just wonder if we haven't had 15 people say they'll maintain Heir to the Throne it would at least be nice to know who they are...
20150726 03:23:45< doofus-01> Would a forum post be easier than Wiki?
20150726 03:23:59< Anticipation> In a slightly unrelated the Ubuntu install on my computer is slowly dying. For instance the fonts in Terminal just gave up and went all weird. This isn't a good sign for productivity today *sigh*
20150726 03:24:03< UnwiseOwl> Easier, yes. Would it be better, though?
20150726 03:24:34< doofus-01> I think only time will tell who will actually follow through.
20150726 03:24:53< doofus-01> I don't know what's better.
20150726 03:25:18< UnwiseOwl> Hrmm...accessibility probably trumps wiki magic. Maybe the forum is superior.
20150726 03:25:56< UnwiseOwl> Just seems like something worth getting ahead of instead of wiating to see who's still here when the dust settles.
20150726 03:26:30< doofus-01> On the other hand, if potential contributors see a list of volunteers, they may pass on.
20150726 03:26:42< doofus-01> figureing the job is taken care of
20150726 03:27:09< DrunkLurker> So making a list visible to a handful of people seems a viable compromise
20150726 03:27:31< doofus-01> How do we do that?
20150726 03:27:53< shadowm> Anticipation: Bad RAM?
20150726 03:28:05< UnwiseOwl> Seems like a job for the secret developer forum ;)
20150726 03:28:11< DrunkLurker> Either privacy setting on the forum
20150726 03:28:30< DrunkLurker> Or even google docs without publicly shared link
20150726 03:28:48< doofus-01> But then how do people volunteer?
20150726 03:29:03< Anticipation> shadowm: Possibly. Ubuntu has never worked properly on this computer for some reason. I should just format the HD and start again tbh. Right now it only boots by first going into recovery mode and then selecting "resume normal boot".
20150726 03:29:30< DrunkLurker> Contact information etc can stay where it is now. Potential volunteers don't necessarily need to see your list 
20150726 03:30:27< doofus-01> Hrmm, maybe.  It's up to one of the dev team to say, I guess.
20150726 03:30:36< UnwiseOwl> Yup.
20150726 03:31:01< UnwiseOwl> I'd put my vote for a publicly available list, so that people can try to cooperate with each other, though.
20150726 03:31:40< Anticipation> If you're making a public list I'd also have in it the last time they were contacted.
20150726 03:31:57< Anticipation> *The last time each user on a project has been contacted that is
20150726 03:32:05< DrunkLurker> Then it might be a good idea to also make public qouta or something, to prevent what doofus has described
20150726 03:32:07< UnwiseOwl> Yeah, good idea.
20150726 03:32:39< DrunkLurker> Something like "we need over9000 people here, 3 people here, -4 people here, and so on"
20150726 03:33:02< shadowm> The thing about campaign maintenance is that it's way too easy to make promises that are never fulfilled.
20150726 03:33:18< UnwiseOwl> It's probably a matter of appointing a "head" for each campaign, to farm out work to those who have volunteered based on their skills..
20150726 03:33:33< DrunkLurker> Otherwise people might really think that there are too many maintainers already and pass on the job
20150726 03:33:38< UnwiseOwl> The head makes a list of jobs, then users take them on.
20150726 03:34:05< doofus-01> The wiki may be better than the forum, after all.  It can be cleared of the deserters.
20150726 03:34:35< doofus-01> and their promises.
20150726 03:34:39< DrunkLurker> Forum posts can be edited as well
20150726 03:34:53< UnwiseOwl> If you have magic mod powers, yes.
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20150726 03:35:07< shadowm> We've had people do it in the past. I've done it in the past too! (Y
20150726 03:35:18< shadowm> Not follow up on the maintenance thing, I mean.
20150726 03:36:21< doofus-01> shadowm - for wiki or forum?
20150726 03:36:32< shadowm> Campaigns.
20150726 03:36:43< shadowm> I didn't understand your question. :p
20150726 03:36:55< doofus-01> Heh.  Right, I think I misunderstood.
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20150726 03:37:14< shadowm> So, like everything else that is code, we'll most likely require a proof of commitment in the form of pull requests.
20150726 03:37:45< shadowm> But ultimately I'm leaving that to vultraz and zookeeper. That said, not all developers have to do C++ or be campaign maintainers.
20150726 03:38:18< shadowm> If you can fix bugs or make even minor improvements to the existing mainline campaigns, your effort will be just as appreciated.
20150726 03:39:11< doofus-01> shadowm - How has the influx of volunteers been, can someone like zookkeeper or vultraz keep track of who has volunteered to do what
20150726 03:39:14< shadowm> And that's always been a thing, not just now for this special occasion.
20150726 03:39:45< doofus-01> or does there need to be some organized list?
20150726 03:40:17< doofus-01> That was what DrunkLurker, UnwiseOwl, and I were wondering.
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20150726 03:42:27< vultraz> We'll work out who gets what in regard to campaigns
20150726 03:43:08< vultraz> I'm still not sure how we'll divvy things up
20150726 03:43:23< vultraz> Especially since 'maintenance' is a long term commitment. 
20150726 03:43:26< Psenfilip> shadowm: do you happen to know the current state of SDL_GPU codepath? What about those #if defined SDL 2 thrown into the mix as well?
20150726 03:43:34< vultraz> There may be times when you don't do anything to the campaigns
20150726 03:44:17< shadowm> Psenfilip: I discussed this with lipkab the other day and I told him I'd rather have people start with a clean slate when it comes to SDL 2.
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20150726 03:44:42< Psenfilip> I was about to say that was a can of worms
20150726 03:44:56< shadowm> Psenfilip: So you'll probably find it more useful to pretend the SDL_gpu code does not exist. As for the SDL 2 blocks, that's up to you, really.
20150726 03:45:02< Anticipation> Oh my gosh. My font issue is a known bug on Ubuntu and apparently other people have had it too after install "pango-graphite", which I just did to compile Wesnoth.
20150726 03:45:15< doofus-01> vultraz - Sure.  I've been around for a few years.  I can't commit much time per week, but I can do the slow and steady.
20150726 03:45:17< shadowm> Some may be useful, some may no longer apply, and some may not even compile.
20150726 03:45:26< shadowm> And even some might be better replaced with new code.
20150726 03:46:11< Psenfilip> Better replace it with an entirely new translation unit, keeping the same API
20150726 03:46:12< shadowm> If you asked me, we should be looking at SDL 2 + OpenGL instead of software rendering in SDL 2.
20150726 03:46:32< shadowm> That'd be why I worded the NotSoEasyCoding entry the way I did.
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20150726 03:46:52< Psenfilip> If you dive into the SDL2 land it is a breeze to support HW stuff because that is what the underlying impl is anyway
20150726 03:47:04< shadowm> It's still a technical decision that must be decided by someone who actually knows this stuff and can commit to maintaining it in the long term.
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20150726 03:47:16< shadowm> *be made
20150726 03:47:27< Psenfilip> Yes, I certainly understand
20150726 03:48:13< shadowm> And if we need to leave old/unsupported hardware users out in the cold to achieve this, well, tough luck I say. We're not going to support Windows XP forever either.
20150726 03:49:32< doofus-01> I'm off.  I'll check the logs tomorrow, if it matters.  Like I said earlier, I'll keep my head down for a while, then check back to see if I'm needed.  Bye.
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20150726 05:05:30< Anticipation> Does anyone know off the top of their head if there's a section of the code that looks at players trying to join your lobby?
20150726 05:06:05< shadowm> Hm.
20150726 05:06:22< shadowm> You mean client or server-side?
20150726 05:07:43< shadowm> Anticipation: For the server side you want the server::process_data_lobby() method defining in server/server.cpp around line 2234.
20150726 05:08:06< Anticipation> Thanks.
20150726 05:10:29< Anticipation> "Admins are always allowed to join games" does that mean what I think it means?
20150726 05:11:01< shadowm> It means MP admins can join anyone's game, yes.
20150726 05:11:51< shadowm> There's probably a good reason for this, because it seems it wasn't always the case.
20150726 05:12:06< Anticipation> Yeah it sounds like something that would have a story behind it.
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20150726 05:13:25< Anticipation> Just browsing the code there's a fair amount of TODO, "Hacky fix" and "don't know why this doesn't work" comments. There's enough here to do for anyone that wants to help out :S
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20150726 05:14:09< shadowm> Hehehehe... heheheh... heh.
20150726 05:14:46< shadowm> wesnothd isn't exactly the best maintained piece of software we use, unfortunately. That's why there's a whole NSEC section on one of the APIs it uses.
20150726 05:15:29< shadowm> Okay, it's not *that* large a section but anyway.
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20150726 05:27:08< Anticipation> You can play games of Wesnoth cross platform right?
20150726 05:27:17-!- Portaljacker [~Portaljac@modemcable081.139-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150726 05:27:23< shadowm> Yes.
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20150726 05:28:08< Anticipation> Oh wait, I can just run two instances at once on my PC, this is fine.
20150726 05:28:17< shadowm> That is, as long as everyone is using the same versions allowed by that particular MP server instance.
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20150726 05:28:38< shadowm> The MP server doesn't know or care about people's platforms and just asks for the client version number on login.
20150726 05:29:30< Portaljacker> hey guys, i saw the forum post posted on reddit, i've been looking for an open source project to contribute to in my spare time and i think i'd like to try helping out :) i pinned the getting started guide to read tomorrow since it's a bit late now >_>
20150726 05:29:33< shadowm> As for saved games, they contain no platform-specific information and they are effectively WML documents, which means Wesnoth should be able with the one platform-dependent thing just fine (line endings).
20150726 05:29:58< shadowm> Hi Portaljacker, that's good to hear. :)
20150726 05:30:16< shadowm> Er, *should be able to deal with
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20150726 05:30:19< Portaljacker> i code in java at work, but i've done more than a bit of c++ from stuff in school
20150726 05:31:01< Portaljacker> i set this channel to auto-join, so at the very least i'll hav the room open whenever i'm on my pc at home :D
20150726 05:31:58< Portaljacker> is developing from windows easy?
20150726 05:32:26< Anticipation> Yeah sure, I was just wondering if I'd have to connect from the other pc in my house to test what I'm doing, but I can just run more than one instance at once.
20150726 05:32:31< maximum_armor> Hey everyone, python guy here. Rising college junior. I spent the summer working on a mid-size Python toolkit for a gene-lab. I like to think i've gotten good at the language, and have TAd our intro Python class for a year now. I can contribute a few hours a week. How's that sound?
20150726 05:32:55< shadowm> Portaljacker: Depends on what your IDE or toolchain of choice is.
20150726 05:33:27< Portaljacker> well i normally use vs, but i'm open to something that's easier to work with these tools
20150726 05:33:40< shadowm> We have a instructions for VS on the wiki: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnWindows
20150726 05:33:47< Portaljacker> at work i use intellij, though that's not super useful for this :P
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20150726 05:34:54< shadowm> maximum_armor: Only Python? :p
20150726 05:35:01< Portaljacker> awesome! :D
20150726 05:35:28< Portaljacker> i tried similar instructions for another open source game when applying to them for summer of code 4 years ago, didn't work so great :S
20150726 05:36:02< Portaljacker> i can't remember it though
20150726 05:36:47< shadowm> We have two devs using MSVC++/VS, if it helps.
20150726 05:37:34< Portaljacker> that's good
20150726 05:37:42< Portaljacker> i gave up and installed linux for that application
20150726 05:37:47< Portaljacker> ended up still not getting in :(
20150726 05:38:06< shadowm> For really lazy people we also have a more ready-to-use Code::Blocks project, but they have to use an obsolete third-party version of GCC and the SDK package for it is also outdated.
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20150726 05:38:49< maximum_armor> I've only written small programs in C++ >_< Plus I really want to work on language tools like wmlscope and wmllint. I haven't done game programming beyond Breakout/tetris. 
20150726 05:39:38< shadowm> maximum_armor: The fact that you mentioned wmlscope even though I specifically avoided alluding to its existence should be a good sign!
20150726 05:39:46< Portaljacker> dound it! it was worldforge
20150726 05:40:41< shadowm> Working with our Python toolchain will require more specific knowledge of Wesnoth's markup language, though.
20150726 05:41:36< shadowm> For example, here's a wmlindent bug: https://gna.org/bugs/?22264
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20150726 05:46:33< Portaljacker> anyway, i need to get going, but i look forward to talking to you guys soon and looking at how i can get started :D
20150726 05:46:35< Portaljacker> night
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20150726 05:47:20< maximum_armor> shadowm: I'm looking at the WML reference right now, I'm not sure how I feel about the structure, but then I've never seen a game's innards before. I get the bug though, I can think of ideas already, I'll need to look into how, say, Vim (or god help me, Atom) does indentation for ideas.
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20150726 05:48:45< maximum_armor> How do you feel about me going through the WML reference and the python toolkit source next weekend, since that's the start of a two-week break I have. I'll try to cover something in that time?
20150726 05:49:06< shadowm> Sure.
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20150726 05:50:42< shadowm> zookeeper: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/422
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20150726 05:52:08< maximum_armor> I'm installing the tools on my VM right now anyway, and look at the source code for a bit! I'll stay around here from time to time
20150726 05:52:35< Anticipation> shadowm: Is choosing "official server" the same as choosing "join server" and entering the official server details?
20150726 05:52:49< shadowm> It's equivalent to joining server.wesnoth.org:15000, yes.
20150726 05:53:13< shadowm> (Or just server.wesnoth.org, the client defaults to port 15000 anyway.)
20150726 05:55:00< Anticipation> Okay cool, in that case the easy part of https://gna.org/bugs/?14138 is done and now I need to figure out how to make a gui option.
20150726 05:55:19< Anticipation> I just needed to make sure the official server doesn't have any special properties.
20150726 05:56:19< shadowm> Anticipation: Well, as opposed to most builds people make, it does have the particularity of supporting username authentication.
20150726 05:57:35< Anticipation> shadowm: YOu know what, I've been doing this for nearly four hours. I think I'm time to go have a break and come back fresh :P
20150726 05:57:51< shadowm> In particular, this involves compiling wesnothd with MySQL support.
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20150726 05:58:16< shadowm> I believe you could easily emulate the authentication check in code, though.
20150726 05:58:43< shadowm> For example, pretend people named foo* are logged in and bar* aren't.
20150726 05:58:55< maximum_armor> Actually I have a couple of ideas for that indent bug. Brb doing some Python-fu
20150726 05:59:54< shadowm> Anticipation: Don't worry too much about that detail, though. I would test your patches locally before merging anyway.
20150726 06:01:33< shadowm> (I'd certainly not ask people to install MySQL and phpBB and set up an auth-capable wesnothd instance for such a tiny thing.)
20150726 06:02:12< Anticipation> shadowm: So we don't really want the option for registered users only games to even appear when you're hosting a game locally because it'll cause everyone attempting to join to fail.
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20150726 06:02:35< shadowm> Hm, yeah.
20150726 06:02:56< shadowm> You might actually have to get the client to ask the server whether it supports authentication first.
20150726 06:03:29< Anticipation> Yeah I'm going to need to think about how I'm putting this in if that's the case. No worries, I'm going to make myself some lunch and think about it :)
20150726 06:03:34< shadowm> Anticipation: Or, for an easier approach, only show the option if the person hosting the game is marked as authenticated. That is information the client already handles.
20150726 06:04:13< shadowm> I don't think it'd make much sense to allow a non-authenticated client to host an auth-only game, anyway. That'd lock yourself out of your game in the event of a disconnect.
20150726 06:04:45< Anticipation> shadowm: I think that solution sounds fair.
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20150726 06:13:33< maximum_armor> Alright, it's a little involved, but I'll get on it next weekend onwards when I'm freer. See ya around!
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20150726 06:14:00< Anticipation> maximum_armor: see you :)
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20150726 06:41:05< Psenfilip> shadowm: still around?
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20150726 06:56:18< Ryckes> Hi! I have a patch for a bug (already in the bug tracker), but I feel a bit lost about updating the changelog. Should I list the fix under Version 1.13.1+dev? Or should I advance the patch version (1.13.2)?
20150726 06:59:13< shadowm> Psenfilip: Now I am.
20150726 06:59:52< shadowm> Ryckes: Under 1.13.1+dev.
20150726 07:01:59< Ryckes> Okay, thank you!
20150726 07:02:41< Psenfilip> shadowm: Cool. I was just having a look at /storyscreen. What is that?
20150726 07:04:07< shadowm> Psenfilip: src/storyscreen? It contains the implementation of Wesnoth's story screen UI, which is used to display scenario intro screens ([story]/[part] in WML).
20150726 07:04:50< shadowm> If you start any mainline campaign you'll see that most scenarios start with a full screen introduction, mostly containing text and pretty pictures illustrating the story.
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20150726 07:05:07< shadowm> 04:04:08 <shadowm> Psenfilip: src/storyscreen? It contains the implementation of Wesnoth's story screen UI, which is used to display scenario intro screens ([story]/[part] in WML).
20150726 07:05:11< shadowm> 04:04:50 <shadowm> If you start any mainline campaign you'll see that most scenarios start with a full screen introduction, mostly containing text and pretty pictures illustrating the story.
20150726 07:05:16< shadowm> As well as the journey map screens.
20150726 07:05:22< Psenfilip_> Yes, tks
20150726 07:05:45< Psenfilip_> That was one of half dozen stuff I stubbed out right away. Got Wesnoth to compile under SDL2 and have an entrypoint going, etc
20150726 07:05:58< shadowm> The current code is a rather half-baked refactoring of the original code years ago.
20150726 07:06:12< shadowm> My own half-baked refactoring, I should add.
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20150726 07:07:15< shadowm> The morale of the story is to not let me do code refactoring but years later I went and did the same thing with the add-ons client and then server.
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20150726 07:08:15< Psenfilip> A-ha, I see
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20150726 07:12:22< shadowm> I mean, it works. It's just not very pretty.
20150726 07:12:40< Psenfilip> shadowm: Also, there was like 10+ files with #include SDL. That makes thing a tad harder, heh
20150726 07:15:23< shadowm> Hm, that reminds me...
20150726 07:17:09< shadowm> Well, I guess I'll only inconvenience everyone right now if I clean up those redundant includes.
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20150726 07:25:50< Psenfilip> Guess my time has come at least for now. Who knows when will be the next time I get to spend more on this. If only I could spend 2 full days on this I would probably crack the (sdl) surface. Pun intended.
20150726 07:26:43< Psenfilip> Some services already ticking and the biggest one now would be the gui
20150726 07:27:24< Psenfilip> Next one, that is. gui2 and friends
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20150726 07:50:45< irker461> wesnoth: Ryckes wesnoth:master da37c16ba76f / changelog data/core/about.cfg src/gui/dialogs/editor_generate_map.cpp: Fix bug #23711 about selecting last map generator used in editor http://git.io/vYgqm
20150726 07:50:45< irker461> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth:master 7789dcc2087b / changelog data/core/about.cfg src/gui/dialogs/editor_generate_map.cpp: Merge pull request #424 from Ryckes/master http://git.io/vYgqY
20150726 07:51:34< shadowm> Ryckes: Thanks!
20150726 07:52:47< Ryckes> You're welcome! I'll see if I can fix some other these days
20150726 07:53:03< shadowm> Elvish_Hunter: I assigned a PR to you, did you get the email?
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20150726 07:59:01< Elvish_Hunter> shadowm: yes, I did. But I also received a PM and I noticed a report about GUI.pyw in the logs, so I'm quite busy at the moment :-)
20150726 07:59:25< shadowm> Okay, just making sure because I always forget who gets emails for what with GitHub.
20150726 08:03:39< Psenfilip> Winds up getting the alpha to work can either be done via surface blend state functions, similar to the old set alpha or custom shaders. Getting at least the loading bar to show up
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20150726 08:05:15< Ryckes> Should I change status of https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?23711 to closed?
20150726 08:06:00< Ryckes> Nevermind, I see it's in Fixed now xD
20150726 08:06:09< shadowm> Well, no, firstly because you can't do that I think, only members of the project can.
20150726 08:06:35< shadowm> Secondly because we only close bugs once the release they are fixed is published, or immediately if the bug was never present in a release.
20150726 08:06:53< Ryckes> Understood :) Thank you
20150726 08:06:55< shadowm> I believe I introduced this in 1.13.0, so...
20150726 08:07:20< shadowm> Okay, I introduced it in 1.13.1, so it's still a released bug.
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20150726 08:40:57< Elvish_Hunter> StandYourGround, pydesigner and others: aww, but I liked Krawg and his unintelligible speeches... :-P
20150726 08:42:30< shadowm> As I said, I don't exactly mind them, but I wouldn't miss them either.
20150726 08:42:35< irker461> wesnoth: Kevin Yap wesnoth:master 1ee6cd644822 / data/tools/wmllint: Improve colour search in pangoize() http://git.io/vYgGo
20150726 08:42:37< irker461> wesnoth: Elvish-Hunter wesnoth:master e72bba5ab622 / data/tools/wmllint: Merge pull request #421 from iKevinY/wmllint http://git.io/vYgGK
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20150726 08:45:14< shadowm> By the way, I've sent AI0867_ an email requesting to make me admin of our project on Coverity Scan so we can submit builds again.
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20150726 08:46:16< shadowm> zookeeper: I'm looking at the water.
20150726 08:46:41< vultraz> zookeeper: merge on 423?
20150726 08:46:50< vultraz> you were discussing it last night
20150726 08:47:06< shadowm> And I'm not sure why I still see it move SE-wards.
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20150726 08:47:40< shadowm> If I pay a little more attention it seems to move both SE and NW-wards?
20150726 08:48:24< shadowm> And this is after replacing all deep water in view with shallow water to avoid confusion, mind you.
20150726 08:48:55< shadowm> I'm not sure if you are specifically trying to break my brain here or...?
20150726 08:50:30< shadowm> vultraz, you can build from source. Why don't you take a look at this too?
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20150726 08:51:27< shadowm> It's https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/417 , and you can find simple instructions for checking it out locally. (Don't merge it upstream.)
20150726 08:52:27< shadowm> Keep in mind zookeeper updated Shallow Water but not Deep Water, so you ought to avoid looking at the latter.
20150726 08:53:07< shadowm> (And yes, you do need to build from source as it requires a few engine changes attached to the same PR.)
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20150726 09:15:22< Ryckes> Shouldn't https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?22987 be marked Fixed and Closed (I think that commit is in 1.13.0)?
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20150726 09:21:18< shadowm> Hm, yes, good catch. It also seems trivially backportable.
20150726 09:25:05< irker461> wesnoth: Randypk wesnoth:1.12 a5b9c893059e / changelog src/multiplayer_lobby.cpp: Bugfix 22987 - Game filter does not work. http://git.io/vYg8f
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20150726 09:36:50< Elvish_Hunter> Well, now I have to go. Bye!
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20150726 10:27:30< zookeeper> urgh, it's gonna take me half an hour to read the log...
20150726 10:34:10< zookeeper> pydsigner, eh? dacyn comes back during the first scenario
20150726 10:42:23< zookeeper> shadowm, i updated _deep_ water, not shallow
20150726 10:42:28< zookeeper> so only look at deep :p
20150726 10:45:32< zookeeper> as for SoF and krawg, i've always found it odd how people think the dialogue is childish. to me EI used to be (still is in some parts) what i'd call childish, whereas SoF is simply... well, more like funny
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20150726 11:13:21< Ryckes> I'm having a look at https://gna.org/bugs/?11276, if I'm not mistaken, the current behavior when you try to dismiss somebody and press return it dismisses that unit AND recalls another unit in the list (not sure if the first, or the previous or something like that)
20150726 11:13:51< Ryckes> How is the return button handled? Some kind of default or selected action in the dialog?
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20150726 11:15:33< Ryckes> Maybe it accepts the dismissal of the unit, but the event falls through to the recall dialog and recalls the unit that is then selected
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20150726 11:18:54< vultraz> Ryckes: return usually defaults to the 'ok' button
20150726 11:19:48< vultraz> so with the dialog, it should either just close the warning or actually dismiss it
20150726 11:19:52< vultraz> s/it/the unit
20150726 11:21:01< Ryckes> It does more than that though :/ It also recalls a unit
20150726 11:21:52< Ryckes> So it first dismisses the unit (so the yes/no dialog is closed) and then recalls a unit in the underlying dialog
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20150726 11:32:10< vultraz> hm
20150726 11:32:19< vultraz> that's likely a problem like you said...event falls through
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20150726 11:46:49< cosarara> hello! I saw that post about needing devs. On wesnoth's github there are a bunch of open pullreqs without comments, why is that?
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20150726 11:53:25< zookeeper> cosarara, some have probably been discussed only here (as opposed via comments), some are likely not intended to be merged (yet) by the author, etc
20150726 11:55:24< cosarara> zookeeper: that makes sense
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20150726 11:55:48< aquileia> < shadowm> The solution is to build Boost on a newer toolchain, but guess what, Boost uses an arcane build system that doesn't like to be used.
20150726 11:57:09< Yaiyan> I'd have said NR is the campaign with the childish dialog, but I don't think that's a big deal
20150726 11:57:14< aquileia> vultraz: Is there something like a gcc imbued shell (environment set up so that boost build can recognize it)? If so, building boost is a 2-liner
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20150726 12:01:17< Ryckes> boost::bind(get_int, _1, "result", CLOSE_DIALOG) any hint on what get_int does? Didn't find doc about it, and the boost definition is obscure
20150726 12:01:44< Ryckes> Well, boost definition, the one in context.cpp:116
20150726 12:02:31< aquileia> vultraz: bootstrap is available as .sh and .cmd, but needs a way to recognize your toolchain (example how it works for MSVC: https://github.com/aquileia/external#updating-boost-libraries )
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20150726 12:18:45< Yaiyan> I've never used gdb before, so am I doing something wrong with "break halo::render"?
20150726 12:18:49< Yaiyan> Or is this the wrong place to ask
20150726 12:20:10< Yaiyan> halo.cpp::render also doesn't work
20150726 12:24:43< cosarara> Yaiyan: http://www.unknownroad.com/rtfm/gdbtut/gdbbreak.html#BCPPFUNC
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20150726 12:25:35< Yaiyan> cosarara, cheers, I'll read through that
20150726 12:26:46< Ryckes> Also, at least for me gdb has tab completion, so writing hallo::render<TAB> should autocomplete it if the function is not overloaded
20150726 12:28:33< Yaiyan> Oh, that works great - thanks!
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20150726 12:56:32< tetha> would it be a feature request that a wml sanity checker performs additional sanity checks, such as overwriting built-in macros?
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20150726 13:00:36< zookeeper> tetha, probably yes
20150726 13:01:20< zookeeper> overwriting built-in macros isn't necessarily a mistake or a problem
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20150726 13:02:04< tetha> ok, that was just an example I got from 'hey we have builtin macros, and you can define your own' :)
20150726 13:06:15-!- irker139 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150726 13:06:15< irker139> wesnoth: aquileia wesnoth:master cbd024fea999 / projectfiles/VC9/ (wesnoth.vcproj wesnothlib.vcproj): vcproj: Add png screenshot support http://git.io/vY2Jg
20150726 13:06:15< irker139> wesnoth: aquileia wesnoth:master d279aa4afe8c / / (6 files in 2 dirs): vcproj: Fixes and cleanup http://git.io/vY2J2
20150726 13:08:30< zookeeper> tetha, however, overwriting built-in ones would be so rare that warning about them would even need to be optional
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20150726 13:11:33< tetha> ok in that case it sounds like a standard linter problem. warn about it and add in a tag to disable.
20150726 13:15:49< Ryckes> What parts of the engine are implemented using LUA?
20150726 13:16:15< Ryckes> I've seen some things concerning LUA in the widgets/dialogs part, but I can't figure out how everything fits together
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20150726 13:18:54< sgret> hi guys
20150726 13:19:05< sgret> a lot of ppl here, more than i expected
20150726 13:19:19< sgret> do you still need python programmers?
20150726 13:19:25-!- liquant [72c60ce3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.114.198.12.227] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150726 13:20:08< liquant> Hello /.
20150726 13:21:58< Appleman1234> Hi
20150726 13:22:33< liquant> I've done some JME work previously. I'm pretty interested in getting involved.
20150726 13:25:10< zookeeper> Ryckes, lua is used to implement some/many WML tags, and for parts of the AI. i don't think it's used for anything interface-related?
20150726 13:25:30< pydsigner> zookeeper: There are differences; NR is intentionally slapstick
20150726 13:26:08< Ryckes> Okay!
20150726 13:26:54< zookeeper> pydsigner, see, i've always felt that SoF is intentionally silly, whereas NR isn't :P not that i've particularly followed the writing revisions that have been done across the years
20150726 13:27:52< Yaiyan> NR isn't intentionally silly? We have a different idea of that term :p
20150726 13:28:06< Ryckes> I said it because of the plugins_context callbacks, which are used in the dialogs class
20150726 13:28:48< Ryckes> And I couldn't find any file where those callbacks would be triggered except scripting/application_lua_kernel.[ch]pp
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20150726 13:30:17< zookeeper> Ryckes, ah, right, looks like there's some lua callback thingys: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML#User_interface
20150726 13:30:36< zookeeper> someone like vultraz might know if anyone's actually used them :p
20150726 13:32:09< Ryckes> Okay!
20150726 13:32:39< zookeeper> sgret, we seem to have gotten several interested people, but naturally at this point the job hasn't been exclusively handed out to anyone in particular
20150726 13:33:26< Ryckes> I'm trying to find out how pressing the return key is handled in the recall units dialog
20150726 13:33:40< zookeeper> sgret, liquant, p.s. check the link in the topic
20150726 13:34:30< liquant> Am doing so! Cheers!
20150726 13:35:19< liquant> Gittin' busy.
20150726 13:36:19< zookeeper> Ryckes, i'm not familiar with the code, can't really help with that
20150726 13:38:28< Ryckes> Don't worry! I think that dialog::process is in charge of the input events, I'm spreading printfs to see if my assumptions are right haha
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20150726 13:46:44< gfgtdf> 20150726 13:30:17< zookeeper> Ryckes, ah, right, looks like there's some lua callback thingys: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML#User_interface
20150726 13:46:53< gfgtdf> yes i use then  lot in every of my addons
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20150726 13:47:10< gfgtdf> this is basicly the lua gui2 show_dialog function20150726 13:30:17< zookeeper> Ryckes, ah, right, looks like there's some lua callback thingys: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML#User_interface
20150726 13:47:35< gfgtdf> ok second copy was not intended to be ther
20150726 13:47:44< DrunkLurker> Have a nice day people
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20150726 13:47:59< gfgtdf> the plugins context is somthing completely unrelated
20150726 13:48:21< gfgtdf> the plgins contex it currently only used for the travis mp test
20150726 13:48:24< gfgtdf> is
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20150726 13:51:19< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#6832 (master - d279aa4 : aquileia): The build has errored.
20150726 13:51:19< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/72683281
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20150726 13:53:57< Ryckes> Okay :) I can ignore it then
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20150726 14:11:50< gfgtdf> Ryckes: note that there are currently 1  different gui frameworks in wesnoth the old gui code (in widgets/) and the bnew gui2 code (in gui/) the confirmation button uses gui2 while the recall list dialog used gui1, so it is possible that this bug is casues by some incompabilitites there
20150726 14:12:15< gfgtdf> Ryckes: also note that it is possible to avoid this bug by pressitin teh enter key only for a very very short time
20150726 14:12:44< tetha> ew, bugs with timing components
20150726 14:14:51< Ryckes> That's what I was looking at right now
20150726 14:15:02< Ryckes> Is it? I didn't notice
20150726 14:15:07< Ryckes> The timing thing I mean
20150726 14:15:46< Ryckes> twindow uses tdispatcher signals for the input keys
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20150726 14:16:14< Ryckes> But dialog has a nice and easy to understand event loop
20150726 14:16:45< Ryckes> Maybe the best fix for this is reimplementing the recall dialog using gui2
20150726 14:17:27< Ryckes> Wait, I think I confused them, which one is newest?
20150726 14:18:19< gfgtdf> gui2 is teh nnewer
20150726 14:18:54< gfgtdf> gui2 is inside gui/ folder and gui (the old one) is inside widgets/ folder (and some of teh old gui code it also directly iniside src/)
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20150726 14:20:23< Ryckes> I got it right then, reimplement recall dialog using gui2
20150726 14:25:19< gfgtdf> Ryckes: this sounds lieka rather hard taks, i dotn even know which of the gui2 idgets works as sortable grid view
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20150726 14:27:34< Ryckes> Yeah, quite daunting haha
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20150726 15:08:05< Ryckes> hm, maybe this should not be in released code:	if(new_widgets || true) {
20150726 15:12:26< Yaiyan> O.o
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20150726 15:14:06< rettaw> no no, the always-branch is a well known optimization for ios
20150726 15:14:07< rettaw> !
20150726 15:18:55< irker139> wesnoth: aquileia wesnoth:1.12 04ae90e94ece / projectfiles/CodeBlocks/.gitignore projectfiles/Dev-C++/.gitignore src/.gitignore: Remove superfluous .gitignore files http://git.io/vY22g
20150726 15:18:57< irker139> wesnoth: Kunal Mehta wesnoth:1.12 c030e1bff18f / utils/mediawiki.py: Remove outdated and likely broken utils/mediawiki.py http://git.io/vY222
20150726 15:29:02< Ryckes> In some of the wiki articles it is mentioned some "Mordante's GUI2 design document/guide", I can't seem to find it
20150726 15:29:42< Ryckes> Have to go now, I will read the log afterwards, cheers!
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20150726 15:35:01< Yaiyan> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GUIToolkit is the nearest thing I can find 
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20150726 15:46:12< huh365> hello, any git experts online?
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20150726 15:46:50< tetha> what's your problem?
20150726 15:48:48< huh365> no problem just a conundrum
20150726 15:49:01< huh365> when making a shallow copy with 'git clone --depth 1' how does one get few chosen  branches and not only one or all?
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20150726 15:53:48< tetha> hm, looking  over the documentation,that seems not possible since the shallowclone just gets the one branch / commit you request
20150726 15:54:09-!- Ryckes [547b4202@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.123.66.2] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150726 15:54:36< huh365> not true, you also have --no-single-branch option, but that gets all of the branches
20150726 15:54:59< huh365> which in case of wesnoth downloads 1/4 of the total repository
20150726 15:55:10< Ryckes> Thanks Yaiyan, I'm gonna check it out
20150726 15:56:29< huh365> in comparison getting head of some depth gets only around 1/17 of repo : )
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20150726 15:57:13< huh365> case being - whole repo is to big for me, but I still want to work with master and 1.12
20150726 15:57:37< tetha> can you handle 2 shallow clones?
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20150726 15:58:04< huh365> you mean to have 2 dirs with two shallow clones?
20150726 15:58:12< tetha> yup
20150726 15:58:44< huh365> hm, how is that any good if you want run diffs against branches?
20150726 15:59:02< huh365> or, is 1.12 being discontinued in favour of upcoming 1.13
20150726 15:59:03< huh365> ?
20150726 15:59:26< tetha> not much, but as I said, I don't see how git supports your request
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20150726 16:00:45< gfgtdf> Ryckes: 20150726 15:08:05< Ryckes> hm, maybe this should not be in released code:	if(new_widgets || true) {
20150726 16:01:08< gfgtdf> Ryckes: where is that code (it could be wirtten by m< if its in tcamapign_selection)
20150726 16:01:21< Ryckes> Exactly there I found it :)
20150726 16:01:27< Ryckes> In tcampaign_selection
20150726 16:01:36< Delfador> Hi evrybody, sorry, I don't know whether it is the right place to ask this. Is BfW in need of a translator English to Italian?
20150726 16:01:43< gfgtdf> Ryckes: it was previously there because treeviews had some problems, but i fixed them
20150726 16:01:54< gfgtdf> Ryckes: but that code its currently in work
20150726 16:02:13< Ryckes> Okay
20150726 16:02:20< gfgtdf> Ryckes: îts about how thempdification show in teh sp campaigns slection screen
20150726 16:02:27< huh365> theta: will answer you soon
20150726 16:02:32< gfgtdf> the mp modifications
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20150726 16:04:33< gfgtdf> 20150726 15:59:02< huh365> or, is 1.12 being discontinued in favour of upcoming 1.13
20150726 16:04:59< gfgtdf> huh365: no 1.12 is still developed, usually  people evelop in 1.13 and then backport to 1.12 it its suitable
20150726 16:05:08< gfgtdf> develop*
20150726 16:06:37< gfgtdf> huh365: 1.12 usually only receives fixed from which we know that the don't brak compability and that they don't cause other bugs.
20150726 16:09:43< zookeeper> Delfador, well... does the italian translation seem to you like it could be better? if so then yes :P
20150726 16:11:02< Delfador> zookeeper: No, The translation into Italian is fine. I just saw the help message on the Homepage and wated to give a hand...
20150726 16:11:22< huh365> gfgtdf: my assumption was based on the fact that when I tried to merge 1.12 into current master in attempt to address issue I was having a whole hell broke lose (conflict flood) xD
20150726 16:12:46< huh365> that is not expected behavior when developing versions with git - at least in my experience. 
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20150726 16:14:22< gfgtdf> huh365: in this case it is, 1.13 (master) and 1.12  are very different (in some aspects) versions and isty very likleey that come codes have changed bewteen 1.13 and 1.12
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20150726 16:15:13< gfgtdf> huh365: suaulyl 1.13 (master) will ahve much more commits than 1.12
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20150726 16:25:44< Ryckes> In case anyone's interested, that GUI2 guide is in LaTeX in the repo :P Under doc/design
20150726 16:25:55< huh365> theta: found a solution to my problem. Imho it would be valuable to update wiki for working with shallow copy.
20150726 16:26:25< huh365> theta: 1) git clone --depth 1 foo. 2) git config --add remote.origin.fetch '+refs/heads/<branch>:/refs/remotes/origin/*' (repeat as necessary). 3) git fetch
20150726 16:26:35< huh365> it should work, I will test it out shortly
20150726 16:27:15< tetha> that'd indeed be interesting to know
20150726 16:30:07< huh365> gfgtdf: it seems like this would be a part of a far more grater discussion that I am willing to participate in. Therefore I will leave this talk for some other time. Thank you for your time.
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20150726 16:43:48< vultraz> Ryckes: if new_widgets || true usually means someone didn't bother to just bother to remove the else block 
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20150726 16:45:28< huh365> tetha: it works, even better than expected
20150726 16:46:13< huh365> theta: and is even more simple than previously suggested to me. All one has to do is git config -e and switch fetch property form fixed branch to generic one with *
20150726 16:46:34< tetha> ah, nice
20150726 16:46:40< huh365> theta: and one will be able to fetch and properly map them localy
20150726 16:46:55< vultraz> Ryckes: er, just didn't bother to remove*
20150726 16:47:21< huh365> theta: important part is to trigger all fetch, therefore also pull, commands with --depth modifier
20150726 16:48:05< huh365> theta: for initial pull/fetch that is, or if one wishes to deepen his history
20150726 16:48:43< huh365> as I said it would be good to update wiki for this info. Need to go now, soooo hungry #_#
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20150726 17:07:32< reddeed> hi everyone 
20150726 17:08:12< JackBauer24> Hi. I've heard Wesnoth team needs people. I would be interested in helping as a C++ programmer, altough I haven't got that much experience in this area. How do I see if I'm fitted?
20150726 17:10:36< reddeed> Hi jackbauer 
20150726 17:10:39< reddeed> nice to meet you 
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20150726 17:10:58< reddeed> Looks like our interests overlap 
20150726 17:13:23< reddeed> I am moderately experienced in python and beginner in c++. But I've worked with SDL before.  Interested in improving the porting to SDL2/opengl.
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20150726 17:16:23< vultraz> reddeed: glad you're interested in helping :) 
20150726 17:16:25< JackBauer24> nice to meet you too
20150726 17:17:43< vultraz> reddeed: don't know much about that side of the code, but lipkab does. Unfortunately he's not here right now.
20150726 17:18:01< reddeed> I've looked through the code. Looks like effort to port to SDL2 is kind of abandoned. Instead, another library named SDL_gpu was tried.
20150726 17:18:01< vultraz> probably best to just start poking around and see what you can do
20150726 17:18:34< JackBauer24> it sounds like you're more fitted than me ;) I do something entirely different on everyday basis, but I develop in C++ and Pyton from time to time so I guess I could help with some smaller things.
20150726 17:18:36< vultraz> shadowm mentioned earlier you should probably just ignore the SDL_gpu section. 
20150726 17:18:48< vultraz> both are abandoned, really
20150726 17:18:55< reddeed> oh 
20150726 17:19:07< reddeed> that simplifis things a lot then :) 
20150726 17:20:52< reddeed> JackBauer24: Not sure about how things will go. But thanks for the appreciation. 
20150726 17:23:02< reddeed> I think thinks can be improved in two ways. 
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20150726 17:23:34< Kwandulin> Mhhhh, if I select a leader after I've recruited a unit with him, he suddenly faces the south-west (even if he originally faced the east). Is this a bug or a feature?
20150726 17:23:58< zookeeper> Kwandulin, if the leader faces the recruited unit, then feature
20150726 17:24:26< zookeeper> although i suppose it should do it when recruiting, not only when you select him afterwards
20150726 17:25:52< Kwandulin> Ah, okay. Yes, he faces the new unit after selecting him
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20150726 17:26:35< zookeeper> i don't like that feature; it was added so that you could make recruit/recruited animations (such as when dark adept line recruits undead), but as a result all leaders flip around all the time
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20150726 17:28:48< zookeeper> i'd say recruit animations should accept a key which tells whether the unit should change to face the recruited unit or not, that way only animations for which it makes sense could do that.
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20150726 17:39:18< helpmeup> anyone free to hold my hand on this
20150726 17:39:50< vultraz> uh...
20150726 17:40:47< helpmeup> want to delve into the source but not sure where to start
20150726 17:41:12< helpmeup> as a not-really-ready-to-contribute-anytime-soon coder
20150726 17:41:37< Yaiyan> I haven't contributed any much either, not much of a C++ coder, but I'd recommend finding something you want to change
20150726 17:41:51< Yaiyan> And then read the code starting in that place, and try to understand what calls what in that part of the code
20150726 17:42:17< vultraz> ^
20150726 17:42:29< helpmeup> ive been told to find the entry point, actually, but im not sure where that is
20150726 17:42:52< helpmeup> i _think_ ive built the doxygen docs correctly, are they as sparse as im seeing?
20150726 17:43:52< Yaiyan> I rarely find following the entry point being a good way to understand what's going on...
20150726 17:44:04< autodidact> really
20150726 17:44:20< autodidact> that's how i get into things
20150726 17:45:19< Yaiyan> main.cpp I think
20150726 17:46:27< helpmeup> er
20150726 17:46:31< helpmeup> wheres that
20150726 17:46:56< Yaiyan> wesnoth.cpp, sorry
20150726 17:47:18< Yaiyan> At least, that's what gdb is telling me, but I've never used that before today :p
20150726 17:47:47< Ryckes> Yep, it's in wesnoth.cpp
20150726 17:48:12< helpmeup> were you the one asking how long it would take to learn c++ from c yesterday Yaiyan 
20150726 17:48:20< Yaiyan> helpmeup, nah
20150726 17:48:36< Yaiyan> I asked that in ##c++ a month back or so, but you probably weren't there at the time :p
20150726 17:49:12< autodidact> gdbs great
20150726 17:49:29< Yaiyan> I'm now learning
20150726 17:49:51< Yaiyan> In uni (only time I normally touch C-style stuff) whenever I wanted to debug something I just spammed printf's everywhere
20150726 17:50:03< Yaiyan> Which is quite restricting :-)
20150726 17:50:13< autodidact> thats normal
20150726 17:50:26< autodidact> normal progression
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20150726 17:51:10< helpmeup> thanks guysima lok in wesnoth then :D
20150726 18:03:27< tetha> if you're doing a lot of long-running server work printf (or rather, logging-based) debugging is very common
20150726 18:04:36< autodidact> fprintf 
20150726 18:04:52< autodidact> i should start reading if im gonna be in here
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20150726 18:30:44< smoyer> \join #wildfly
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20150726 18:47:02< irker716> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:1.12 d625d49d3796 / src/play_controller.cpp: Update check_victory http://git.io/vYacz
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20150726 19:14:24< shadowm> zookeeper: Oh.
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20150726 19:24:42< shadowm> zookeeper: What was the reason we don't require explicit #undef for overwriting macros again?
20150726 19:25:31< shadowm> tetha: You may note that there's a tool called wmlscope that is normally supposed to check macros and image references (mainly because wmllint isn't currently designed to handle macros).
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20150726 19:28:48< zookeeper> shadowm, why would an #undef be better?
20150726 19:29:00< shadowm> Because that means you aren't accidentally doing it.
20150726 19:29:28< shadowm> It's a declaration of intent. "I know this macro exists, and for some reason I've decided I want to replace it."
20150726 19:29:35< zookeeper> right. so you can't overwrite, but you can #undef and re-define?
20150726 19:29:47< zookeeper> i dunno, sounds reasonable to me
20150726 19:30:00< shadowm> I think things would break if we forbid overwriting entirely, but we can issue a warning.
20150726 19:30:20< shadowm> (Mainly UMC, I imagine, but I think there were a few cases in mainline last time I tried.)
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20150726 19:31:48< zookeeper> overwriting is a pretty rare usecase so i don't have any objections against outputting a warning if it's not undef'd first
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20150726 19:35:13< shadowm> Ryckes: GUI2's listbox widget is not entirely stable when it comes to updating its layout after deleting rows, I think (although I believe gfgtdf committed a patch addressing that some time ago). It also doesn't have high-level filtering functionality, although the implementation is partly there in the form of the set_row_shown() methods.
20150726 19:36:14< Yaiyan> Is there ever a good reason to overwrite a macro?
20150726 19:36:16< shadowm> We also don't have a clickable list column header widget yet, which I'd expect would be a visual variation of toggle_panel.
20150726 19:36:38< Yaiyan> It would just make things more confusing for future maintainers, I'd have thought
20150726 19:37:00< shadowm> https://github.com/shikadilord/After_the_Storm/blob/master/macros/optimizations.cfg
20150726 19:37:29< Yaiyan> Ah
20150726 19:38:30< tetha> shadowm: yeah I'm currently looking around if I could unify both the macros and the other WML tree into one big syntax tree
20150726 19:38:43< shadowm> Ryckes: The design document has to be built separately using CMake and a bunch of tools and I did that some time ago: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21371130/notes/gui2.pdf
20150726 19:38:45< tetha> that'd be hard initially, but simplify a lot of checks and transformations later on
20150726 19:38:55< autodidact> why...?
20150726 19:39:07< autodidact> thats terrible
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20150726 19:40:57< tetha> for one it would remove a lot of special casing, since things are just dealing with identifiers in certain namespaces.
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20150726 19:41:18< Yaiyan> shadowm, that versions outdated
20150726 19:41:41< Yaiyan> pdflatex gui2.tex has an extra section 3.6
20150726 19:41:46< Yaiyan> Not sure where it requires cmake though?
20150726 19:42:16< shadowm> Because it's either that or figuring out how to build it by hand.
20150726 19:42:27< shadowm> I built this 2 years ago, I guess mordante might have added something before leaving.
20150726 19:42:39< Yaiyan> Ah
20150726 19:42:54< Yaiyan> Yeah, pdflatex gui2.lex works fine though anyway
20150726 19:43:39< shadowm> I get a number of errors.
20150726 19:44:13< Yaiyan> Hmm, hadn't noticed them before
20150726 19:44:18< Yaiyan> But the file looks fine
20150726 19:44:19< shadowm> And it requires me to deal with them interactively. :|
20150726 19:44:31< Yaiyan> It does?
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20150726 19:44:38< Yaiyan> Not here >_>
20150726 19:46:31< Yaiyan> http://yaiyan.co.uk/gui2.pdf
20150726 19:46:56< Yaiyan> Contents doesn't generate without cmake apparently, you're right
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20150726 19:48:00< helpmeup> how did you generate everything yaiyan
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20150726 19:48:23< Yaiyan> helpmeup, in gui2.pdf?
20150726 19:48:41< helpmeup> in doxygen im guessing, but yeah
20150726 19:49:01< Yaiyan> I just "pdflatex gui2.tex", and checked it was vaguely similar to sm's :p
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20150726 19:49:21< Yaiyan> *just ran
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20150726 19:50:20< StandYourGround> Hey ancestral…  is there an easy way to upgrade wesnoth --HEAD in homebrew without uninstalling and reinstalling it?
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20150726 19:50:48< StandYourGround> I try "brew upgrade wesnoth --HEAD"
20150726 19:51:13< StandYourGround> and it tells me wesnoth --HEAD is already installed
20150726 19:51:51< ancestral> StandYourGround: Hi
20150726 19:51:58< StandYourGround> doesn't using HEAD automatically download the latest code, or does the SHA need to updated in the .rb?
20150726 19:52:30< ancestral> HEAD *should* pull the latest from master
20150726 19:52:35< ancestral> What does the .rb file say?
20150726 19:52:39< StandYourGround> in other news, I updated pango recently without any issues...
20150726 19:52:42< StandYourGround> let me check…
20150726 19:53:02< ancestral> In any case
20150726 19:53:15< StandYourGround> where are the bottles stored again...
20150726 19:53:22< StandYourGround> formulas I mean...
20150726 19:53:24< ancestral> I think its /usr/local/Cellar/
20150726 19:53:38< ancestral> In any case, I don’t think you need to `brew upgrade wesnoth` repeatedly
20150726 19:53:43< StandYourGround> I mean the formula repo clone
20150726 19:53:43< Xudo> Hi all. I was around for a long lime but I havent thought that wesnoth is in trouble. I am advanced in WML, beginner in c++ and quick learner in general. I am interested in the idea of server bots which is added to feature plan by iceiceice. Where should I start?
20150726 19:53:43< ancestral> Except when there’s a new release
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20150726 19:53:53< ancestral> Instead, you should be able to go to the project dir and git pull
20150726 19:53:58< helpmeup> texlive is 1.8 gigs
20150726 19:54:00< helpmeup> ...
20150726 19:54:14< iceiceice> yeah texlive-full package sucks
20150726 19:54:34< iceiceice> i really need to figure out what is the actual package that uses the "fullpage" macro
20150726 19:54:37< iceiceice> *installs it
20150726 19:54:42< iceiceice> because i always install texlive-full to get it
20150726 19:54:57< iceiceice> StandYourGround: so next best thing should be, use ccache?
20150726 19:55:06< ancestral> StandYourGround: Do you see wesnoth in /usr/local/Cellar ?
20150726 19:55:16< iceiceice> i added --with-ccache=yes option to the brew script when i made it
20150726 19:55:24< iceiceice> so reinstalling should be very quick
20150726 19:55:44< iceiceice> i think it also retains your clone even when you uninstall? not sure
20150726 19:56:05< StandYourGround> wesnoth is there, yes
20150726 19:56:14< ancestral> iceiceice: SYG shouldn’t need to `brew upgrade` to pull the latest from master, right? He just needs to go to that directory and git pull
20150726 19:56:21< ancestral> Or maybe I’m missing something
20150726 19:56:53< iceiceice> i think brew usually wants to manage all the git stuff itself
20150726 19:57:01< iceiceice> but you could probably do it that way and it would work i guess
20150726 19:57:15< iceiceice> there might be some special command, not sure
20150726 19:57:32< StandYourGround> What is the recommended homebrew procedure, first?
20150726 19:57:57< StandYourGround> should upgrade with HEAD be what works?
20150726 19:58:19< iceiceice> i would have to look at homebrew docs
20150726 19:58:26< iceiceice> honestly this is a decent question for homebrew irc channel if you aren' sure
20150726 19:58:44< iceiceice> they are pretty friendly in my experience
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20150726 20:00:50< ancestral> I should probably know how to do this… I’m offering to move the “Lets learn from Spring” topic to a different forum, I just haven’t done so before
20150726 20:01:02< shadowm> I already did it.
20150726 20:01:09< ancestral> Ah good
20150726 20:01:16< shadowm> I moved it from Website to Users' and I am drafting a response.
20150726 20:02:07< ancestral> It’s just the “forum for new topic” drop down? Or do you have to specify a title when you move it too?
20150726 20:02:36< shadowm> When you choose to move a topic it'll ask you where to move it in a new page.
20150726 20:02:48< shadowm> As in web page.
20150726 20:03:07< ancestral> Hmm okay
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20150726 20:03:17< shadowm> You also have the option to leave a "shadow topic" behind in the old forum to help people notice their topic was moved.
20150726 20:03:21< shadowm> brbrbrbr
20150726 20:03:32< StandYourGround> So I'm trying brew reinstall --HEAD wesnoth
20150726 20:03:35< StandYourGround> see what happens
20150726 20:04:35< StandYourGround> By the way, I wrote a simple applescript program that launches wesnoth from homebrew like a normal Mac app
20150726 20:04:48< StandYourGround> you can put it on the dock or access it via Spotlight/Launchpad
20150726 20:06:05< StandYourGround> is there a way to add that to a homebrew install so it appears in the /Applications folder?
20150726 20:06:20< StandYourGround> not the preferred bundling method, but at least it works
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20150726 20:25:00< grandlord_n> Hello Wesnothians .. I have a question about using some Wesnoth images (graphic arts) from the main campaingn... can these images be used for illustration purpose in a book? 
20150726 20:26:06-!- joet [~joet@host86-152-153-248.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20150726 20:26:38< grandlord_n> would appreciate if some one can point me to the right person to ask for a permission. ... this will be a 'commercial book' . 
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20150726 20:28:17< helpmeup> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0.en.html
20150726 20:28:42< shadowm> zookeeper, gfgtdf, vultraz, aquileia, Elvish_Hunter, mattsc (?): http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=587756#p587756
20150726 20:29:17< tetha> hehe, suddenly, stuff happens :)
20150726 20:31:15< tetha> I'm looking forward to that discussion, overall
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20150726 20:34:17< autodidact> 'sdl2/opengl transition: not surrently doable by any current member given an infinite amount of time
20150726 20:34:20< autodidact> '
20150726 20:34:23< autodidact> really?
20150726 20:35:09< shadowm> Yeah, none of us active developers know SDL 1.2 or 2 to the extent required by the task.
20150726 20:35:31< autodidact> did the main engine developer walk off?
20150726 20:35:57< shadowm> We have lipkab (the author of the SDL_gpu port attempt) left, but he doesn't have much time.
20150726 20:36:09< autodidact> well shit
20150726 20:36:16< autodidact> i guess i found something to do
20150726 20:36:41< autodidact> gimme a few years to find my way through the source
20150726 20:36:45< shadowm> Other than that, we've not really had a _dedicated_ low level code maintainer since 2010 approximately.
20150726 20:36:47< Yaiyan> Isn't there that guy who comes on now and again who's working on it?
20150726 20:37:07< Yaiyan> The one who criticises every piece of code he reads :/
20150726 20:39:01< tetha> hm, all of these are pretty technical goals. 
20150726 20:39:30< tetha> which goals would draw in more players, or more campaign authors?
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20150726 20:41:26< Yaiyan> A new campgen
20150726 20:41:51< Yaiyan> People like to be able to make their own stuff, easily
20150726 20:41:53< autodidact> are you in dire need of of players/campaign authors?
20150726 20:42:35< Yaiyan> I think it's more a matter of meet the technical goals, and getting on to steam is more realistic
20150726 20:42:41< Yaiyan> Getting onto steam will help bring more players
20150726 20:42:43< Yaiyan> *then
20150726 20:42:55< autodidact> getting on to steam is a weird goal
20150726 20:43:07< autodidact> arent there income requirements to use the steam api
20150726 20:44:33-!- pydsigner [~pydsigner@unaffiliated/pydsigner] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20150726 20:47:19< autodidact> wtf is this multiplayer lobby
20150726 20:47:25< autodidact> bells and spaceman sounds
20150726 20:47:45< autodidact> when i think high fantasy tactical role playing i think laser beams
20150726 20:47:46< halfspiral> shadowm: am I correct in assuming that wesnoth does not have anyone triaging bugs right now?
20150726 20:48:25< iceiceice> autodidact: yeah the mp lobby sounds are quite pitiful
20150726 20:48:40< iceiceice> its not too difficult to turn them off selectively in 1.13...
20150726 20:49:12< autodidact> im just looking around
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20150726 20:50:04< shadowm> halfspiral: As in, all the time? No, we don't really have a dedicated person for that.
20150726 20:50:20< Xudo> To draw in more players, you need community leader and constant activity in social network
20150726 20:50:32< halfspiral> kk, digging around on gna, seeing a lot of old issues that are still open
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20150726 20:52:00< zookeeper> grandlord_n, well as said the images are GPL, but it's very possible that the specific artist would be willing to give you permission
20150726 20:52:03< autodidact> last time i had this installed dsl internet was just getting big
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20150726 20:53:32< zookeeper> autodidact, a more fantasy'ish full set of UI sounds would be nice, yes
20150726 20:53:58< zookeeper> although the rest of the interface in general is pretty modern and non-fantasy'ish anyway
20150726 20:55:40< Xudo> tetha, Wesnoth is in stage, when adding game features will not draw more players.
20150726 20:55:59-!- gandaro [~gandaro@wikipedia/Gorlingor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150726 20:56:30< tetha> Xudo: so you need content.
20150726 20:56:37-!- grandlord_n [7aac8de4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.172.141.228] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20150726 21:00:40< Xudo> tetha, content isn't really a problem.  Some time ago I have realized that I'd never play through all good add-ons because of lack of free time. As I said before, Wesnoth needs community leader.
20150726 21:01:28< shadowm> Define "community leader".
20150726 21:01:55< zookeeper> shadowm, so did you look at deep?
20150726 21:01:56< shadowm> (I am legitimately curious what your expectations from such a person would be.)
20150726 21:02:10< shadowm> zookeeper: No, not yet.
20150726 21:02:28< shadowm> I hope you won't get mad at me for what I just did, btw.
20150726 21:03:50< zookeeper> what, the feedback rename?
20150726 21:03:51< Xudo> Not the easiest thing to define. I think it is person, who will spend his time to show to others that Wesnoth is bursting with activity
20150726 21:04:01< shadowm> zookeeper: Rename + relocation.
20150726 21:04:29< zookeeper> eh, fine by me
20150726 21:04:32< shadowm> Xudo: Would you have any particular person in mind for this?
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20150726 21:06:06< Xudo> May be some tournaments, presentation in social networks. I don't know any person for whole Wesnoth. But there is one in Russian community.
20150726 21:06:24< shadowm> See, I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I've thought about it many times over the last six months. All I am saying is that it must be someone who understands our community, can be trusted with our official communication channels, and has a lot of time to dedicate to the task.
20150726 21:07:06-!- gandaro [~gandaro@wikipedia/Gorlingor] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150726 21:07:12< shadowm> I think it should be evident that I already chose someone for the role, at least temporarily. I just don't want to burn him out because he's already a dev and, like me, has interests in UMC land too.
20150726 21:07:59< Xudo> Isn't there any bright person among the players now?
20150726 21:08:22< shadowm> Not particularly that I see, no. Not in the forums at least.
20150726 21:09:42-!- galanm_ [~galanm___@89-72-98-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150726 21:09:51< shadowm> It's partly a matter that I've not publicly mentioned the need for a community spokesperson, of course.
20150726 21:10:45< shadowm> But yeah, for the time being we have vultraz.
20150726 21:11:20< shadowm> He wrote 95% of the announcement after all, and I only took care of the technobabble post.
20150726 21:12:09< Xudo> Some time ago where was  tournaments. Who have hosted them?
20150726 21:12:31-!- gandaro [~gandaro@wikipedia/Gorlingor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150726 21:12:43< Xudo> Conquest related tournaments
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20150726 21:17:16< Aginor> hey all, I saw the request for help and I'd be interested in helping out, seeing as how I've enjoyed playing the game on plenty of occasions. I've been browsing the bugtracker and are there any suitable smallish bugs that I would be able to cut my teeth on and get up and running with?
20150726 21:17:18< zookeeper> yes, certainly it'd be great if there was someone who basically devoted all their time towards community management and PR and all that
20150726 21:17:36< autodidact> ive figured it out
20150726 21:17:57< autodidact> we pick wesnoth up by migrating it to spring
20150726 21:18:02 * autodidact is brilliant
20150726 21:18:16 * zookeeper gives a cold stare
20150726 21:18:17-!- Xudo [~androirc@188.232.152.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150726 21:18:35< Yaiyan> Is there any way of getting the calling function without using gdb?
20150726 21:18:49-!- Xudo [~androirc@188.232.152.51] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150726 21:18:49< Yaiyan> Breakpoints don't work well when you're using them each time the screen rerenders
20150726 21:18:50< autodidact> getting = ?
20150726 21:18:58< tetha> to me, spring is still java enterprise dependency injection, which makes that sentence a lot more scary
20150726 21:19:01< Yaiyan> Knowing which function called the one you're in
20150726 21:19:05< Yaiyan> Traceback I suppose
20150726 21:19:10< autodidact> youre using gdb for something this big
20150726 21:19:16< Aginor> Yaiyan: use conditionals for your breakpoints
20150726 21:19:16< Yaiyan> Nope
20150726 21:19:22< Yaiyan> Wondering what to use
20150726 21:20:03< Yaiyan> Aginor, I'll look into that, cheers
20150726 21:22:11-!- Xudo [~androirc@188.232.152.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150726 21:22:20< shadowm> autodidact: And what would you suggest as an alternative?
20150726 21:22:30< autodidact> ?
20150726 21:22:37< shadowm> 18:19:11 <autodidact> youre using gdb for something this big
20150726 21:22:55-!- Xudo [~androirc@188.232.152.51] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150726 21:22:57< autodidact> its more like suprise
20150726 21:23:01< autodidact> surprise
20150726 21:23:20-!- Xudo [~androirc@188.232.152.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150726 21:23:27< autodidact> i dont want to let on im some master genius hacker
20150726 21:23:34< shadowm> Normally someone would only be surprised if they had a different tool in mind for a large project.
20150726 21:23:50< autodidact> i wouldnt know what to do, i dont know shit
20150726 21:24:11< autodidact> lets not get off on the foot that i have any clue about anything, heh
20150726 21:24:12< shadowm> Otherwise, gdb is pretty standard on Linux and there isn't a reason to be surprised.
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20150726 21:24:40< autodidact> the most ive used gdb for is probably pong
20150726 21:24:49< iceiceice> gdb is awesome
20150726 21:24:51< autodidact> and that was barely 1000 lines
20150726 21:25:16< iceiceice> idk why you wouldn't use gdb it works great
20150726 21:25:28< autodidact> gsb IS awesome, i just wouldnt be able to keep up with my symbols in a project this big, as ive never touched anything this size
20150726 21:25:38< autodidact> gdb
20150726 21:25:41< iceiceice> only thing that would be better would be like, automatic backtrace reporting in case of crash :)
20150726 21:25:43< Yaiyan> When you said this big, I thought you were being sarcastic, and meant small...
20150726 21:25:57< Yaiyan> *cough* python *cough*
20150726 21:26:03< iceiceice> not even "better" but, additional
20150726 21:26:07< shadowm> A graphical front end would be nice, I'm open to recommendations in that regard myself.
20150726 21:26:14< autodidact> ?
20150726 21:27:40< iceiceice> gdb is best thing richard stallman ever made in my view :p
20150726 21:27:52< autodidact> i thought you were gdbing the blit
20150726 21:28:04< autodidact> which im guessing has a ton of shit going on
20150726 21:28:16< autodidact> 'gdbing'
20150726 21:28:31< Aginor> iceiceice: if you have coredu,ps enabled in your system (off by default in most places nowadays) you get both your call trace and a complete dump of state
20150726 21:28:51< Aginor> just load into gdb and then you're set to start debugging :)
20150726 21:29:03< iceiceice> yeah but the thing is most users have no idea how to enable core dumps
20150726 21:29:04< shadowm> zookeeper: Is ocean water really this dull? (Regarding light reflections.)
20150726 21:29:19< iceiceice> i made an experimental branch once to like,
20150726 21:29:21< shadowm> It's funny I'm asking this considering I live like 60 km. away from ocean, but...
20150726 21:29:27< iceiceice> try to register a sigsegv handler
20150726 21:29:37< iceiceice> that would call "libunwind" or some cross platform stack unwinder
20150726 21:29:47< iceiceice> and https post it somewhere
20150726 21:30:06< iceiceice> didnt finish it, it kind of worked iirc....
20150726 21:30:15< Aginor> iceiceice: it sounds useful
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20150726 21:30:34< iceiceice> it would be pretty controversial, people don't much like adding new libraries
20150726 21:30:40< iceiceice> its already hard enough to build boost and pango cairo
20150726 21:31:01< zookeeper> shadowm, i'm sure that most of the time it's not, but i didn't want to do fancy bright glittering reflections because i felt that'd bring the water into too much focus
20150726 21:31:29< shadowm> vultraz come on, why don't you take a look a this too.
20150726 21:31:33< shadowm> at
20150726 21:31:41< vultraz> the water?
20150726 21:31:51< shadowm> Oh, you are here.
20150726 21:31:56< iceiceice> autodidact: gdb is also like, a great poor man's debugger in my experience
20150726 21:32:00< iceiceice> sorry
20150726 21:32:03< iceiceice> poor man's profiler
20150726 21:32:06< shadowm> vultraz: Yes, the water. The deep water, not the shallow water like I said earlier.
20150726 21:32:12< zookeeper> if you think it's a problem, i could try some different lighting options
20150726 21:32:22< iceiceice> if your program is running very slowly just run it in gdb and hit ctrl break repeatedly
20150726 21:32:24< iceiceice> and write down the stack traces
20150726 21:32:25-!- [Franklin] [~franklin@unaffiliated/franklin] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150726 21:32:32< iceiceice> if there's some really slow loop it often gives you a quick idea what it is
20150726 21:32:38< shadowm> zookeeper: Ultimately, I think we'll just have to merge this and ask people to see it for themselves.
20150726 21:33:03< iceiceice> most profilers require significant setup, like you have to link to something or add a bunch of hooks in the code
20150726 21:33:06< shadowm> It's quite hypnotic, but I guess it sort of works.
20150726 21:33:35< shadowm> zookeeper: Shallow water will have less pronounced waves too, right?
20150726 21:33:42< shadowm> Compared to deep water.
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20150726 21:34:14< zookeeper> shallow will look like it does not, except that it'll be non-directional too
20150726 21:34:18< zookeeper> s/not/now
20150726 21:34:23< Yaiyan> Aren't waves at their biggest nearer the shore though?
20150726 21:34:34< Yaiyan> Like, a few hundred metres out
20150726 21:34:35< shadowm> Xudo: You do realize you aren't telling me anything that needs to be private, right?
20150726 21:35:09< shadowm> As in, these other people here may also benefit from seeing this stuff you are telling me in query.
20150726 21:35:21< zookeeper> Yaiyan, maybe, but that's not something we can do
20150726 21:35:45< shadowm> zookeeper: Yeah, and it's less pronounced like I said. So good, I think I need to see the new shallow water. :p
20150726 21:35:54< autodidact> ctrl break iceiceice ?
20150726 21:36:10< aquileia> shadowm: Is it possible to obtain direct links to files on sourceforge (so that na application could download them) ?
20150726 21:36:11< zookeeper> shadowm, ehh you don't need to see it, if the deep works for you then the shallow will too :p
20150726 21:36:23< iceiceice> autodidact: yeah whatever the interrupt key press is on your system
20150726 21:36:24< shadowm> zookeeper: But there's still the desaturated colors issue.
20150726 21:36:26< iceiceice> for me its ctrl + c
20150726 21:36:43< iceiceice> in gdb it will stop the process where it is,
20150726 21:36:44< autodidact> ctrl c?
20150726 21:36:46< zookeeper> shadowm, sure, you were supposed to GIMP me something that'll show how overly saturated you'd prefer them to be
20150726 21:36:46< iceiceice> you can get a backtrace,
20150726 21:36:48-!- gandaro [~gandaro@wikipedia/Gorlingor] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20150726 21:36:49< iceiceice> then press continue
20150726 21:36:49< Xudo> shadowm, haven't you said that question of community leader is not  a topic for public discussion?
20150726 21:36:50< iceiceice> and do it again
20150726 21:36:52< autodidact> ah
20150726 21:37:05< shadowm> aquileia: wget can download files from SF.net with the usual links.
20150726 21:37:08< iceiceice> its like a sampling profilier
20150726 21:37:41< shadowm> aquileia: I assume they redirect you to the actual thing if your UA identification is one of the popular command line clients (wget, curl) or something.
20150726 21:37:52< shadowm> Xudo: No, I did not say that.
20150726 21:37:57< autodidact> i think poor mans profiler would be a good term for that... method
20150726 21:38:11< shadowm> Xudo: Here is what I said: 18:09:52 <shadowm> It's partly a matter that I've not publicly mentioned the need for a community spokesperson, of course.
20150726 21:38:16< zookeeper> shadowm, anyway, can you look at how well the deep water works in caves etc? considering the (non-)realism level our terrain is going for in the first place, do you think it's going to distract anyone if there's no special calmer variant for caves?
20150726 21:38:30< shadowm> I did not say why I've not publicly mentioned it or that it shouldn't be publicly mentioned.
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20150726 21:38:52< Xudo> ok, I misundestood you.
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20150726 21:39:38< aquileia> shadowm: Well, having direct links would be preferable - I'm looking into the "Windows upgrade packages" topic and would prefer not to ship another binary just so that the installer can get the upgrade package
20150726 21:40:04< Ravana_> will the water use Animate map setting?
20150726 21:40:21< zookeeper> Ravana_, yes
20150726 21:40:46< shadowm> aquileia: Um.
20150726 21:40:56< Ravana_> need to remember to enable it for a time to see then
20150726 21:41:52< shadowm> aquileia: Maybe check how Mingw does it? I honestly don't know and I believe the mirror links (which is what your browser eventually follows, obviously) aren't supposed to be permanent. Their ToS also used to have wording against direct linking but it seems they don't anymore or it's cleverly hidden.
20150726 21:42:33< shadowm> aquileia: But what I had envisioned was patch packages for every release anyway, not a dedicated upgrader that will download from wherever for people.
20150726 21:43:13< shadowm> aquileia: See also: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?18104
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20150726 21:47:32< aquileia> shadowm: I wouldn't bother patching individual files - my binaries are only 10 MB, loonycyborg's 20 MB
20150726 21:48:22-!- Xudo [~androirc@188.232.152.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150726 21:48:46< aquileia> Perhaps the translations are worth considering, but even that's questionable
20150726 21:50:57-!- lipkab [~lipkab@host-91-147-210-193.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150726 21:52:27< gfgtdf> which 'Windows upgrade packages' you talk about ?
20150726 21:53:20< gfgtdf> aquileia: ^
20150726 21:53:55< Yaiyan> Eh
20150726 21:54:11< Yaiyan> This halo bug isn't in 1.12, but neither halo.cpp or unit_drawer.cpp have been changed since 1.12 was released
20150726 21:54:27< lipkab> gfgtdf: Hello.
20150726 21:54:33< gfgtdf> lipkab: hi
20150726 21:54:36< aquileia> Currently non-existent, theoretical installers to update any previous 1.12 installation to the latest minor release
20150726 21:55:18< lipkab> gfgtdf: I'd like to talk about https://gna.org/bugs/?23617 .
20150726 21:55:25< gfgtdf> aquileia: 'I'm looking into the "Windows upgrade packages" topic' didnt mean a specifc forum topic or something ?
20150726 21:55:28< lipkab> I see two possible solutions:
20150726 21:55:44< aquileia> gfgtdf: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=587756#p587756
20150726 21:55:50< lipkab> 1) Remember sp modifications separately, as you suggested.
20150726 21:56:08< zookeeper> shadowm, anyway, i guess i'll push the engine-side changes already
20150726 21:56:12< lipkab> 2) Or don't remember modifications for sp campaigns at all.
20150726 21:56:23< shadowm> zookeeper: Sure.
20150726 21:56:34< gfgtdf> lipkab: both are ok to me
20150726 21:56:44< shadowm> aquileia: I'm not sure I follow you.
20150726 21:57:20< shadowm> Who ever said anything about patching individual files and what's the alternative according to you?
20150726 21:57:30< lipkab> gfgtdf: I too think both are equally good solutions, I'd like to decide based on the direction you want to take with sp/mp unification.
20150726 21:57:56< lipkab> gfgtdf: Are you going to proceed with that or revert it?
20150726 21:58:11< gfgtdf> lipkab: i see no reason to revert it
20150726 21:58:21< lipkab> Okay.
20150726 21:58:24< lipkab> Thanks.
20150726 21:58:28< aquileia> shadowm: What I meant was that we would replace any edited files instead of applying patches to them
20150726 21:58:40< gfgtdf> lipkab: i think we fixed most of (or maybe all) of teh related bugs
20150726 21:59:03< lipkab> Ah? That's good news!
20150726 21:59:20< shadowm> aquileia: It's easier to just replace all changed files.
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20150726 21:59:27< aquileia> Yes
20150726 21:59:33< shadowm> That's what I was thinking.
20150726 21:59:53< shadowm> And... everyone else I think?
20150726 21:59:59< aquileia> then we're on the same page
20150726 22:00:12< gfgtdf> lipkab: i personally have no sp mods that i use regaulary, My current main use for sp modifications is for debugging: i have a debug mods that makes scenariso easier and i also often use "testing modificationa" instead of "testing scenarios" nowdays.
20150726 22:00:17< shadowm> Sure, you could make binary patches but that requires more sophisticated tools I think.
20150726 22:00:18< lipkab> gfgtdf: Though my main concern remains: the two codepaths are just inherently different and we may be forced to re-separate them at some point.
20150726 22:00:33< shadowm> And I don't think we should worry about people editing core files either, that should be their own problem.
20150726 22:01:38< aquileia> shadowm: I thought you wanted diff-based patches because the tool suggested in the FR you linked does that
20150726 22:02:04< shadowm> Oh it does? I didn't realize.
20150726 22:02:06< gfgtdf> lipkab: yes, also the mp configure screen doesnt look very good for sp.
20150726 22:02:22< gfgtdf> lipkab: but currently thats teh onyl reason i see for seperatign more
20150726 22:03:13< lipkab> Well, duplicating one screen is probably not too much of a problem.
20150726 22:03:26< shadowm> aquileia: The other reason why I wouldn't worry is that most changes between releases are either text files (which compress well) or PNG files (whch are already compressed and thus aren't very diffable when they change).
20150726 22:03:43< shadowm> The executables are an issue but I believe they still compress well.
20150726 22:03:46< shadowm> I can check.
20150726 22:04:19< lipkab> But, for example, solution 1) would practically require duplicating every modifications-related functionality in create_engine.
20150726 22:04:22< gfgtdf> aquileia: i agree taht we shoudl not use dif based updates, i think teh simplest solution is just to download an archivefile which contins all changes filed and just to unpack it
20150726 22:04:30< lipkab> (That's why I'm going with 2)
20150726 22:04:37< shadowm> shadowm@nanacore:~/src/wesnoth/win32-x-run% du -sh wesnoth2.exe.xz
20150726 22:04:40< shadowm> 5.1M    wesnoth2.exe.xz
20150726 22:04:53< lipkab> I wonder how many situations like this could pop up.
20150726 22:05:14< shadowm> aquileia: That's from a 25 MiB exe built *mostly* the same way loonycyborg does his releases.
20150726 22:05:25< shadowm> (That is, statically linked libc and libstdc++.)
20150726 22:05:45< shadowm> (And Boost libraries.)
20150726 22:05:53< aquileia> I just zipped one of his exe's and it was around 6MB
20150726 22:06:01< lipkab> gfgtdf: Anyways, in case I sound like I'm trying to question your decision, I don't :)
20150726 22:06:27< shadowm> aquileia: xz generally yields superior compression rates compared to zip AFAIK.
20150726 22:06:40< shadowm> I also think it should be somewhat similar to 7z.
20150726 22:06:50< aquileia> I know, but does NSIS handle xz?
20150726 22:07:10< gfgtdf> aquileia: wait is you plan to have user download 
20150726 22:07:13< shadowm> No idea what it actually uses internally.
20150726 22:07:16< gfgtdf> update istaller manually ?
20150726 22:08:53< aquileia> gfgtdf: While it'd be nice to have updates managed by Wesnoth itself, I think that's a little overambitious ;) I'd just provide an installer for each new release which replaces the relevant files
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20150726 22:09:04< gfgtdf> lipkab	But, for example, solution 1) would practically require duplicating every modifications-related functionality in create_engine.
20150726 22:09:36< shadowm> I thought I had added the built-in uploader idea to NSEC, but it turns out I forgot.
20150726 22:09:45< shadowm> Er, updater.
20150726 22:09:50< gfgtdf> lipkab: why? i thougth wed just need a if(sp) here https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/game_initialization/create_engine.cpp#L440 and in the code thatt saved them
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20150726 22:10:06< aquileia> shadowm: NSEC ?
20150726 22:10:16< shadowm> aquileia: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/NotSoEasyCoding
20150726 22:10:30< gfgtdf> lipkab: like in BOOST_FOREACH (const std::string& str, is_sp ? preferences::sp_modifications() : preferences::modifications()) {
20150726 22:10:54< lipkab> gfgtdf: Is there actually anything like is_sp?
20150726 22:11:18< lipkab> It seemed to me that create_engine doesn't know if it's in sp.
20150726 22:11:26< gfgtdf> lipkab: is does
20150726 22:11:34< lipkab> Oh!
20150726 22:11:38< gfgtdf> lipkab: you can use type == game_classification::CAMPAIGN_TYPE::MULTIPLAYER to check whether its multiplayer
20150726 22:11:55< lipkab> That's cool. Thanks!
20150726 22:11:55< gfgtdf> where game_classification::CAMPAIGN_TYPE type = state_.classification().campaign_type; from the line before
20150726 22:13:58< lipkab> Ok, then it might 1), after all.
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20150726 22:14:58< irker103> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth:master e2cbd98ba3da / src/image.hpp: Remove an obsolete and potentially harmful code advice from 2003 http://git.io/vYVJF
20150726 22:16:54< irker103> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth:master 1575fce44a08 / src/image.hpp: Remove another obsolete and potentially harmful code advice from 2003 http://git.io/vYVU8
20150726 22:17:44< aquileia> shadowm, gfgtdf: What would help quite a bit with bandwidth would be if we had language modules in the installer and downloaded those the user selects, but I guess that's unrealistic (though it should be easy to automatically upload archives of every subdir in translations/ )
20150726 22:18:12< shadowm> Are translations really that large compressed?
20150726 22:18:57< shadowm> EIther way, this is primarily an issue for loonycyborg.
20150726 22:19:21< shadowm> How would those be implemented in the NSIS installer (which itself only supports English text AFAIK)? Where would these files be hosted?
20150726 22:19:21< aquileia> They compress about 1:2, I think, so they should cause around 1/5 of the current installer size
20150726 22:19:35< shadowm> 98 MiB -> 15 MiB using xz.
20150726 22:19:40< shadowm> (Just checked.)
20150726 22:19:52< aquileia> and as zip?
20150726 22:21:38< aquileia> 37 MB
20150726 22:21:51< shadowm> I don't know I don't remember how to make a zip.
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20150726 22:22:26< shadowm> Hm.
20150726 22:22:36< shadowm> 38 MiB.
20150726 22:22:45< shadowm> What does NSIS use , again?
20150726 22:22:48< midzer> hi
20150726 22:23:22< lipkab> I've just got this new IDE and it's pretty awesome except I can't tell it not indent stuff in namespace blocks :/
20150726 22:23:26< lipkab> midzer: Hello.
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20150726 22:25:52< aquileia> shadowm: Seems their compression is on par with 7z - decompressing and recompressing as 7z yields about the same size
20150726 22:26:22< shadowm> zookeeper: I ncase you didn't get the email: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/425
20150726 22:27:00< zookeeper> shadowm, i noticed
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20150726 22:28:18< gfgtdf> lipkab: which ide you have ?
20150726 22:28:35< lipkab> gfgtdf: CLion.
20150726 22:28:51< shadowm> aquileia: And 7z is on par with xz.
20150726 22:29:10< vultraz> gfgtdf: BTW, sorry I haven't updated the editor side dialog yet. I've done the layout, but a little stuck with the code since I don't want to duplicate all the controller selection functions
20150726 22:29:19< shadowm> shadowm@nanacore:~/src/wesnoth% du -sh translations.*
20150726 22:29:21< shadowm> 15M     translations.7z
20150726 22:29:24< shadowm> 15M     translations.tar.xz
20150726 22:29:26< shadowm> 38M     translations.zip
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20150726 22:32:21< aquileia> So basically we can replace any file that changed and the patch will still be tiny? That's nice
20150726 22:32:53< zookeeper> c1xx : fatal error C1083: Cannot open source file: '..\..\src\gui\dialogs\game_paths.cpp': No such file or directory
20150726 22:33:09< gfgtdf> vultraz: ok
20150726 22:33:18< gfgtdf> zookeeper: your projectfiles are not up to date
20150726 22:33:34< zookeeper> yeah, i figured that's probably it
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20150726 22:35:25< gfgtdf> zookeeper: simply removing that file (gui\dialogs\game_paths.cpp) form the projectfiles has an over 50% chanche to solve that problem
20150726 22:35:48< aquileia> zookeeper: Usually you could just update yours manually, but I'd recommend using the one in VC9 - I made a few changes during the last days (you'll have to pull external/ as well though)
20150726 22:36:43< aquileia> gfgtdf: Nope, because it was renamed IIRC (besides, lipk added a new widget as well, so there are multiple required changes)
20150726 22:37:21< zookeeper> what are the chances someone will update the project file accordingly in the next ~8 hours?
20150726 22:37:41< aquileia> zookeeper: Isn't it already?
20150726 22:37:55< aquileia> If not, 100%
20150726 22:38:22< zookeeper> uh... we're talking about updating the projectfile
20150726 22:38:59< iceiceice> you should just commit whatever is in your root, and then do "git pull -rebase"
20150726 22:39:15< iceiceice> that will update hte project file
20150726 22:39:21< iceiceice> you might not even have to commit
20150726 22:39:25< zookeeper> ...what
20150726 22:39:25< iceiceice> dont remember
20150726 22:39:37< zookeeper> i'm pretty sure git doesn't update my project files
20150726 22:39:44< aquileia> As you're not using Visual Studio 2008, you need to replace your project file with the one in VC9
20150726 22:39:45< iceiceice> are you using the ones int he project tree?
20150726 22:39:49< zookeeper> yes, of course
20150726 22:39:55< iceiceice> then surely it will
20150726 22:40:14< zookeeper> we're talking about updating the project file, not pulling the updates someone did to them
20150726 22:40:27< iceiceice> you have like a secret project file you are maintaining?
20150726 22:40:32< zookeeper> ...
20150726 22:40:35< iceiceice> why?
20150726 22:40:39< zookeeper> why is no one making any sense all of a sudden
20150726 22:41:02< vultraz> what the heck is going on here
20150726 22:41:04< iceiceice> ok i'm assuming you didn't delete this file yourself
20150726 22:41:15< iceiceice> so obv someone else did, and then they should have updated?
20150726 22:41:25< iceiceice> i see so the issue is they didn't update yours
20150726 22:41:43< iceiceice> wow project files are such a good idea :(
20150726 22:42:02< aquileia> iceiceice: MSVC makes changes to the projectfile when you open it with a newer version. Due to this, pulling doesn't update the project file zookeper actually uses.
20150726 22:42:06< zookeeper> project files are a stupid concept :p
20150726 22:42:28< Yaiyan> I thought I was getting somewhere with this bug, then I just realised I've completely confused myself >_>
20150726 22:42:34< Yaiyan> Blah
20150726 22:42:43< aquileia> He needs to replace them with the ones from the repo and open with MSVC so that it generates the newer version for him
20150726 22:43:21< shadowm> Why in the end I didn't bother with MSVC++, in a nutshell.
20150726 22:44:27< aquileia> shadowm: That wouldn't happen as much if we didn't need to support the ancient VC9...
20150726 22:44:30< zookeeper> err, so is this it: even though git says nothing's changed in my project files, they actually are changed and i just don't see it because someone decided for me that i shouldn't know about a local change like that and put them in .gitignore?
20150726 22:44:51< aquileia> zookeeper: No
20150726 22:45:02< shadowm> aquileia: *need*?
20150726 22:45:04< lipkab> Yaiyan: Which bug?
20150726 22:45:19< Yaiyan> lipkab, https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?23712
20150726 22:45:29< shadowm> Who *needs* to support MSVC++ 9 when our releases aren't even made with MSVC++?
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20150726 22:45:33< shadowm> :p
20150726 22:45:33< Yaiyan> Something to do with the halo's being cleared at some point
20150726 22:45:38-!- ancestral [~ancestral@63.92.240.233] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150726 22:45:42< aquileia> I edited the .vcproj files, but MSVC uses .vcxproj (notice the X) files it generates from them
20150726 22:46:06< aquileia> shadowm: anonymissimus uses VC9 IIRC
20150726 22:46:19< shadowm> Why am I not surprised.
20150726 22:46:39< zookeeper> aquileia, then i have no idea whatsoever what you're saying here: "MSVC makes changes to the projectfile when you open it with a newer version. Due to this, pulling doesn't update the project file zookeper actually uses."
20150726 22:46:43< zookeeper> because there are no local changes
20150726 22:46:58< zookeeper> oh, wait
20150726 22:47:16< shadowm> Yaiyan: Psenfilip was also taking a look at that bug earlier (around 20150725 23:38:19 in the logs).
20150726 22:47:16< aquileia> zookeeper: You created a VC15 directory or something like that, right?
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20150726 22:47:39< zookeeper> i had opened the VCx dir i made at some point on someone's instructions
20150726 22:47:50< zookeeper> and those are of course all local files
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20150726 22:48:43< lipkab> Yaiyan: No idea about that, sorry.
20150726 22:48:47< aquileia> replace the contents of VCx with those of VC9 (you can keep the subdirs, just delete the loose files directly in VCx)
20150726 22:48:50< Yaiyan> Ah, I see
20150726 22:49:04< Yaiyan> I'll carry on looking around it, this bug has been irritating me for weeks now
20150726 22:49:12< StandYourGround> I was thinking about that discussion yesterday about how stupid the story of Sceptre of Fire is, and I think I have an idea of how to revise that campaign to help it make more sense and even add humor
20150726 22:49:13< zookeeper> aquileia, right, thanks, i'll try that tomorrow
20150726 22:49:26< zookeeper> StandYourGround, you seem to be around exactly at the times i'm not
20150726 22:49:35< StandYourGround> and if you guys like it, I'm willing to draft a story and post it on the Writer's forum
20150726 22:49:39< zookeeper> so, again, i'll just read the logs in the morning...
20150726 22:49:53< zookeeper> sure, please do
20150726 22:50:00< StandYourGround> The basic I idea is to change the format so it's narrated as a story from Delfador to Konrad
20150726 22:50:15< StandYourGround> while he's growing up with the elves
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20150726 22:50:40< StandYourGround> it could be a way to explain some of the "embellishments", and add humor as Konrad argues about how the story should be told
20150726 22:50:58< StandYourGround> like have a scenario start out with human enemies, and Konrad objects, so they become Landar's rebel elves
20150726 22:51:14< StandYourGround> and you see the units switch on the map
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20150726 22:52:31< StandYourGround> Delfador obliges to most of Konrad's story changes, since even he admits he doesn't have all the details
20150726 22:52:41< StandYourGround> the important thing is the sceptre, not every detail of how it came to be
20150726 22:54:07< StandYourGround> but then by the later scenes, Delfador tires of Landar's elves always being the bad guys, so he switches to orcs and trolls…
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20150726 22:54:54< Yaiyan> Anyone know what unit::handle() is?
20150726 22:55:05< Yaiyan> halo::handle()***
20150726 22:55:10< StandYourGround> don't know.  it sounds awkward
20150726 22:55:18< Yaiyan> It's not defined in halo.cpp nor halo.hpp so far as I can see
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20150726 22:56:18< lipkab> StandYourGround: I like the concept.
20150726 22:56:46< StandYourGround> I also have an idea for a very absurd way for the sceptre to have survived the lava
20150726 22:56:49< shadowm> StandYourGround: I'm not opposed to framing devices but why does it have to be humans? :\
20150726 22:57:17< shadowm> I feel that detracts a bit from the campaign's focus on the dwarves.
20150726 22:57:22< StandYourGround> it made sense for me for Delfador to tell Konrad the Sceptre story since he wants him to be familiar with it
20150726 22:57:39< StandYourGround> because that's how Delfador's planning on making Konrad king
20150726 22:57:46< shadowm> But then doesn't he first hear of the Sceptre in HttT Siege of Elensefar?
20150726 22:57:54< StandYourGround> little details
20150726 22:57:57< StandYourGround> that can be revised
20150726 22:58:08< lipkab> Yaiyan: halo.hpp:36
20150726 22:58:18< Yaiyan> lipkab, ah, cheers
20150726 22:58:28< Yaiyan> Missed that somehow, thanks
20150726 22:58:50< lipkab> No problem.
20150726 22:58:59< StandYourGround> and if it was dwarves telling the story, they probably would be a lot more accurate
20150726 22:59:27< shadowm> Not necessarily.
20150726 22:59:33< shadowm> Especially if a few drinks were involved.
20150726 22:59:40< shadowm> :p
20150726 22:59:54< vultraz> Aren't dwarves famous for ale or something
20150726 23:00:08< StandYourGround> well, the Scepter just isn't a shining memory for the dwarves
20150726 23:00:24< StandYourGround> it was a terrible business deal that ended in a lot of dwarves dying for a relic valued by humans
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20150726 23:02:08< StandYourGround> but the Sceptre is basically the symbol of symbols for Wesnoth
20150726 23:02:27< StandYourGround> so they would be more likely to tell a romantically embellished tale about it.
20150726 23:02:49< StandYourGround> the action will be all dwarves
20150726 23:03:11< StandYourGround> just the narrator and his listener are humans
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20150726 23:03:38< aquileia> I have to agree with shadowm that dwarven humour plus ale could make for an epic tale...
20150726 23:03:56< StandYourGround> I'm just having trouble framing how the dwarves come to telling it
20150726 23:04:05< StandYourGround> is the listener going to be Hamel then?
20150726 23:04:29< StandYourGround> anyway, I could at least draft it with my original idea of the narrator
20150726 23:04:34< StandYourGround> to get the framework laid out
20150726 23:04:40< rettaw> StandYourGround: this basically forces you to make a second campaign where a dwarf tells the story too (well not forces, but you should damn it!)
20150726 23:05:04< StandYourGround> okay then.  but the only dwarf I'm really familiar with is Hamel
20150726 23:05:12< StandYourGround> I need someone who's telling him the story
20150726 23:05:22< StandYourGround> and a setting to explain why he needs to hear iy
20150726 23:05:23< StandYourGround> it
20150726 23:05:36< StandYourGround> I had all that with my original idea
20150726 23:05:50< rettaw> or or! At the end of your idea, a dwarf wanders in and retells the entire story! 
20150726 23:06:01< StandYourGround> see, I had another idea, sorta
20150726 23:06:11< rettaw> mid campaig turn around: you get to play it all again!! ;)
20150726 23:06:20< StandYourGround> there's a big character change and a plot twist that sounds so absurd it couldn't possibly have happened
20150726 23:06:36< StandYourGround> but then in the Sceptre of Fire scenario in HTtT, we find out that that part was actually true
20150726 23:06:46< StandYourGround> I'd like to include it in the draft than reveal it now
20150726 23:06:47< lipkab> StandYourGround: I don't think the teller and listener need to be prominent people.
20150726 23:07:02< StandYourGround> I agree, but it helps sell the setting a little better
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20150726 23:07:05< aquileia> Aye lads, me kinsmen of clan Shorbear once met the best an' last of all runesmiths, the legendary Thursagan! 'T was a bit bloody, because he needed our tools and did'na want to pay, but ...
20150726 23:07:35< StandYourGround> okay, might as well drop my character change now...
20150726 23:07:51< StandYourGround> Krawg the talking gryphon is out, the ghost of Thursagan is in
20150726 23:08:10< StandYourGround> see, he got rather old, and was caught by surprise by a wandering necromancer
20150726 23:08:11< aquileia> Hamel needs to know it besause his clan found Thursagans notes during THoT
20150726 23:08:34< StandYourGround> who was a bit of a novice and did not understand the power Thursagan had from the hammer
20150726 23:08:43< StandYourGround> so Thursagan's ghost easily overwhelmed him
20150726 23:09:02< StandYourGround> and so as a ghost, he's been guarding his priceless hammer waiting for someone he can train to wield it
20150726 23:09:36< aquileia> and they want to train runesmiths, so an epic tale about him forging his masterpiece is just right for the next ale banquet (I'm missing the right word for it, sorry)
20150726 23:11:08< Yaiyan> Well, at least I now know sort of what causes the bug
20150726 23:11:08< aquileia> StandYourGround: I'm not sure his ghost is a good narrator, but that's just my opinion
20150726 23:11:12< Yaiyan> Just no clue how to fix it :)
20150726 23:11:22< aquileia> He'd know too much ;)
20150726 23:11:27< StandYourGround> he's not the narrator
20150726 23:11:32< StandYourGround> he's Krawg's replacement
20150726 23:11:37< StandYourGround> a better sidekick
20150726 23:12:08< aquileia> But he's one of the main characters and alive...
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20150726 23:12:18< StandYourGround> and because he's a ghost, while he could escape the lava, he couldn't take his hammer or the sceptre with him
20150726 23:12:48< aquileia> so he just replaces the "and so we know it was forged" part?
20150726 23:17:05< StandYourGround> the ghost can tell the wesnothians
20150726 23:17:20< StandYourGround> and then he departs with some line about never letting that sceptre out of his sight..
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20150726 23:18:43< StandYourGround> so then the ghost leaves and he is allegedly quarding the sceptre
20150726 23:19:13< StandYourGround> so then I envision a change to the scepter scenario in HtTT where we have to fight some big bad troll boss with a massive rock club
20150726 23:19:18< StandYourGround> that the sceptre is actually encased in
20150726 23:19:34< StandYourGround> and when the boss is defeated, his rock club shatters revealing the Sceptre, and Thursagan appears
20150726 23:20:01< StandYourGround> to meet the party that defeated him, and when he judges them worthy to have the sceptre, he vanishes, apparently at peacer
20150726 23:20:03< StandYourGround> peace
20150726 23:20:34< StandYourGround> and the scepter begins glowing in a haunting way
20150726 23:20:46< StandYourGround> as if some part of Thursagan never leaves it
20150726 23:23:43< Yaiyan> Does a unit's anim_comp ever get recreated?
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20150726 23:23:46< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#6837 (master - 1575fce : Ignacio R. Morelle): The build has errored.
20150726 23:23:46< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/72752884
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20150726 23:26:13< Yaiyan> Nope
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20150726 23:27:10< StandYourGround> thoughts on the story idea?  I can work on a draft and possibly post it in a few days
20150726 23:27:26< StandYourGround> but think it's good enough to be worth the time to discuss on the forums?
20150726 23:27:49< irker103> wesnoth: Lipka Boldizsár wesnoth:master 91b49198ff90 / src/game_initialization/ (mp_options.cpp mp_options.hpp): Mark a non-mutating function as const. http://git.io/vYVGl
20150726 23:27:51< irker103> wesnoth: Lipka Boldizsár wesnoth:master 6d64baa207cd / / (4 files in 3 dirs): Remember modifications separately for sp and mp. http://git.io/vYVG8
20150726 23:28:23< shadowm> Well, if you want.
20150726 23:28:28< lipkab> StandYourGround: Yes.
20150726 23:28:43< shadowm> I'm just going to say that I'm a campaign author and I don't believe in outsourcing writing ideas.
20150726 23:29:08< StandYourGround> well maybe I might have to become a "maintainer" 
20150726 23:29:20< shadowm> Maybe for minor details (like exactly who the framing device characters would be), but not for a whole storyline.
20150726 23:29:21< StandYourGround> but I'd only do it if people liked the story change
20150726 23:29:39< StandYourGround> the story more or less is still the same, except for the Thursagan ghost bit
20150726 23:30:02< StandYourGround> it's just framed as being narrated by someone who may not necessarily have the clearest picture of how it all happened
20150726 23:31:06< lipkab> shadowm: Can't we have bug ids in commit messages link to the respective reports like in the SVN days? I liked that feature.
20150726 23:31:58< shadowm> No, GitHub only supports linking to itself.
20150726 23:32:10< lipkab> :(
20150726 23:32:22< shadowm> Even if we had an external bug tracker that was supported by GitHub hook-wise, I believe.
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20150726 23:33:16< Yaiyan> I have no idea why this bug isn't in 1.12
20150726 23:33:22< aquileia> If I were to choose the frame, I'd go for a member of clan Shorbear telling the court of Hamel the story while they drink, and drink, and drink...
20150726 23:35:12< StandYourGround> works for me
20150726 23:35:36< StandYourGround> cool with the idea of enemy factions randomly being changed as the dwarves argue over different ways they heard the stroy...
20150726 23:35:52< StandYourGround> to explain how we ever get to dwarves and elves allied against other dwarves...
20150726 23:35:59< aquileia> I don't want to dictate the setting, just thinking loud - do as you please
20150726 23:36:15< StandYourGround> okay.  I guess I was only asking if you liked the idea :P
20150726 23:36:57< StandYourGround> well gtg
20150726 23:36:59< vultraz> lipkab: updated the doc comment in 426
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20150726 23:37:02< aquileia> how we ever get to dwarves and elves allied <-- But yeah, that would be hilarious when the narrator is from that clan!
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20150726 23:37:17< StandYourGround> the elves could switch sides randmoly
20150726 23:37:31< StandYourGround> and finally the narrator just rolls with it and drinks more ale
20150726 23:37:36< gfgtdf> lipkab: your commit seems to change onyl teh code that reads those preference not teh code that writes them
20150726 23:37:40< aquileia> YES!
20150726 23:38:09< gfgtdf> lipkab: set_modifications(...,  false) is never calles
20150726 23:38:33< StandYourGround> also have a random character that makes no sense occasionally added to the recall list
20150726 23:38:48< StandYourGround> because someone listening really liked it for some dumb reason
20150726 23:39:05< StandYourGround> and the narrator gets mad and "kills" him
20150726 23:39:17< lipkab> gfgtdf: You're right, however, the sp dialog didn't call set_modifications earlier either so that's a separate issue.
20150726 23:39:38< lipkab> I'll fix that tomorrow.
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20150726 23:40:06< gfgtdf> lipkab: ok
20150726 23:41:24< lipkab> vultraz: Ok, looks good to me otherwise.
20150726 23:41:35< lipkab> 'Night everyone.
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20150726 23:41:51< vultraz> shadowm: should I merge it now?
20150726 23:42:34< shadowm> Merge what?
20150726 23:42:51< vultraz> 426 now that I've updated the doc comment as lipkab asked
20150726 23:43:18< shadowm> So you went for that without splitting it in two, okay. :\
20150726 23:43:29< shadowm> 20:04:25 <shadowm> Because right now the commit suffers from "doing more stuff than advertised" syndrome.
20150726 23:43:38< vultraz> I can do that
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20150726 23:44:22< shadowm> Well, while you are at it...
20150726 23:45:33< Yaiyan> Since fixing this is proving to be too much for me, should I just comment what I've found on the bug report?
20150726 23:45:37< shadowm> Meh, yeah go do that. I guess I clean it up a bit later.
20150726 23:45:40< shadowm> vultraz: ^
20150726 23:46:08< shadowm> Yaiyan: If you feel it can help others, by all means, go ahead!
20150726 23:48:17< Yaiyan> I'll look for a little longer, but I'm not feeling like I'm gonna work this one out :/
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20150726 23:55:33< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#6837 (master - 1575fce : Ignacio R. Morelle): The build passed.
20150726 23:55:33< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/72752884
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20150726 23:57:41< vultraz> shadowm: alright
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--- Log closed Mon Jul 27 00:00:53 2015