--- Log opened Fri Jul 31 00:00:10 2015
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20150731 01:16:00< aeth> I'm cleaning up my MoD from 3 years ago
20150731 01:16:29< aeth> the RPG one where the host can change the terrain, spawn in units, and essentially keep the game going on forever by switching maps etc.
20150731 01:21:08< aeth> If anyone wants to playtest it soon
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20150731 10:23:41< VSG> Hi everyone
20150731 10:30:24< vultraz> hello
20150731 10:30:32< APic> Hi
20150731 10:35:43< VSG> Maybe someone could help me, I had read this about Battle of Wesnoth "They also need developers to help them refactor the aging code base and, by the look of it, a bunch of 3D experts would come in handy to bring the look and feel of the game up into the second decade of the 21st century." and I would like to help as 3D artist.
20150731 10:36:09< zookeeper> unfortunately whoever wrote that didn't understand what they were saying
20150731 10:36:51< zookeeper> or rather, completely misunderstood what we want; we're not looking to switch to 3d or anything.
20150731 10:37:27< loonycyborg> wesnoth's graphics are already awesome enough as they are
20150731 10:37:41< VSG> haha, ok
20150731 10:38:01< VSG> yes, I think so
20150731 10:38:05< zookeeper> that is, the art style won't change and thus 3D is largely unnecessary. in some very limited capacity people might utilize 3D to create the 2D art, but that's about it.
20150731 10:38:28< loonycyborg> I think some artists use some 3d tools like blender in their pipelines
20150731 10:38:38< zookeeper> yeah, me for instance :p
20150731 10:39:18< zookeeper> both the new maps and the new water were (partially) done in 3D
20150731 10:39:34< VSG> yes, that's what I was thinking, instead of create the sprites pixel by pixel, fake it with 3D in low res rendering without antialiasing
20150731 10:40:24< VSG> that would help mainly in animation
20150731 10:41:15< zookeeper> maybe, maybe not. the animations might just as well suffer as a consequence, because they might be "too" realistic whereas the kind of good sprite animations we aim for do a lot of exaggeration and stretching and so on.
20150731 10:42:18< VSG> yes, that would be animations without interpolation, just main keys
20150731 10:43:03< zookeeper> if someone is very familiar with 3D character animation then sure, i can see how they might prefer to create the basic forms and keys of the animations that way
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20150731 15:22:45< janebot> Tweet (by @Wesnoth) (RT @JetrelArt) Fun to revise something from a few years back; do it in exactly the same style, just a fuckton better.  #practice http://t.c… [ https://twitter.com/Wesnoth/status/627137326251163648 ]
20150731 15:26:08< celticminstrel> ...thanks for clobbering the link. 9_9
20150731 15:26:30< celticminstrel> Okay, I have no idea what that is.
20150731 15:26:50< celticminstrel> But it looks good.
20150731 15:37:37< vultraz> Indeed
20150731 15:37:43< vultraz> It's an asset for Frogatto
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20150731 15:42:50< janebot> Tweet (by @Wesnoth) We broke 1k followers sometime recently, and we didn't even notice. Belated (virtual) cake and shoutout to all our fans! #thanks [ https://twitter.com/Wesnoth/status/627142379926106112 ]
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20150731 18:29:24< deego> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=40486 - reading this page. How can going second increase your chance of battle? 
20150731 18:29:48< deego> I even calculated the probabilities myself.  I get: Going first, D has a 8/9 chance of winning. Going second, only a 7/9 chance.
20150731 18:31:43< deego> pinging zookeeper, Ravana_  - you guys participated in the thread.
20150731 18:32:55< Ravana_> actually, this sounds like something Bobmin would write...
20150731 18:35:07< deego> Are there any special rules for dragonguard or thunderbird that complicate the situation and were not mentioned? 
20150731 18:35:38< aeth> they're 1 shot units, very luck dependent.
20150731 18:35:46< aeth> with the rocklobber they're the only one-shot ranged, I think
20150731 18:37:00< deego> aeth: yeah, i see that. so, no special rules, no swarm, anything like that. hm.
20150731 18:37:05< Ravana_> they have resists actually, so the test case in game would be different
20150731 18:37:44< aeth> well 1 shot is almost like a special case in Wesnoth because most units have more than one
20150731 18:37:56< deego> ah, fair enough
20150731 18:38:13< aeth> imo they're more useful in defensively discouraging someone from attacking with a strong ranged unit
20150731 18:38:20< deego> true
20150731 18:38:52< deego> Do you guys get the same probabilities ? 8/9 and 7/9? Or do you get 11/75 and 14/75?
20150731 18:39:05< Ravana_> writing the cases out currently
20150731 18:39:20< deego> and, any intuitive reason why going second can help? I don't understand velensk's explanation at the bottom.
20150731 18:39:41< lipkab> deego: Did you calculate retaliation shots in?
20150731 18:40:11< deego> lipkab: duh. I didn't. Let me retry that. Thanks!
20150731 18:40:24< lipkab> No problem.
20150731 18:44:35< Ravana_> ah can't stand doing it precisely
20150731 18:44:51< aeth> oh I figured it out
20150731 18:45:03< aeth> don't do probabilities, just write down the battle order assuming they keep missing forever.
20150731 18:45:17< aeth> 1 = 1st to attack, 2 = second to attack.
20150731 18:45:22< Ravana_> deego: when 1 hit would kill you, and you need 2 turns to kill it, then you will be shot at least once. by not attacking first other one shoots once, then you shoot twice
20150731 18:45:31< aeth> 1 - 2; 2 - 1; 1 - 2; 2 - 1; etc. assuming they keep attacking
20150731 18:45:41< aeth> The defender gets two attacks in a row because the thunderer line only has one shot
20150731 18:46:01< aeth> if it was a two shot thing it would be: 1 - 2 - 1 - 2; 2 - 1 - 2 - 1; etc.
20150731 18:46:07< aeth> still two attacks in a row but not so soon and not as often
20150731 18:46:19< aeth> that's why it's counterintuitive too
20150731 18:47:12< deego> ah, haha! thanks! didn't notice that!
20150731 18:47:26< aeth> Notice that with the one-strike units like the thunderer, the first to defend is the first two have to strikes while with the 2 strike unit, the first to attack is the first to have two strikes
20150731 18:47:28< Ravana_> ah, Bobmin uses Alyx instead of Alice... seemed similar
20150731 18:47:46< aeth> So with only one strike a turn, the thunderer reverses the intuition we normally see
20150731 18:52:21< aeth> oops I was about to post a cleaned up version of the above and then I realized it's an old thread
20150731 18:54:14< aeth> Btw, there's basically no difference against a two strike ranged between starting or not. 2 - 1 - 2; 1 - 2 - 2; 2 - 1 - 2;
20150731 18:54:26< aeth> 1 - 2 - 2; 2 - 1 - 2; ...
20150731 18:54:44< aeth> No matter who starts the non-one-strike will get more strikes in sooner if it's the thunderer against a normal ranged unit
20150731 18:55:48< aeth> (The important thing about getting more attacks in sooner is that a unit can die, ending the sequence. Otherwise, it doesn't matter.)
20150731 18:59:16< aeth> Unrelated, there's another fun counter-intuitive thing. Let's say you have a row of village against water (mostly a scenario you have to construct, e.g. in A New Land where you can change the terrain). Mages are actually garbage here. magical is always 70%, most trapped units will be 20% in the water. Magical attacks will miss more than others.
20150731 19:01:11< deego> hm, i now get the prob. of winning when going first to be 799/1323 instead of 11/75. ah well, i must have made a mistake somewhere.
20150731 19:01:34< deego> instead of (1-11/75), i mean, like the thread says
20150731 19:01:42< aeth> deego: the thread could be wrong
20150731 19:01:52< aeth> just double check
20150731 19:02:15< deego> but, yeah, the basic point remains. Going second seems like a better plan.
20150731 19:03:07< aeth> they are 50% in caves and villages
20150731 19:03:34< aeth> you can actually set up your own scenario with a thunderer and a dragonguard and see how the in-game stats calculate the odds
20150731 19:04:48< aeth> just use a few lines of http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML:Units in a [lua] code = ... [/lua] to make the HP identical as the thread
20150731 19:05:00< aeth> I think you can just use the Lua console directly
20150731 19:05:20< lipkab> The game can't see beyond one turn and this calculation involves the summation of an infinite series.
20150731 19:05:38< lipkab> So no, you have to do it yourself :P
20150731 19:05:59< aeth> most of the later results are so improbable as to be irrelevant
20150731 19:06:37< aeth> you just need to use save/loading to set up a tree of possibilities in save games if you really want to see them all :-p
20150731 19:06:47< Ravana_> if you write it as scenario then you can launch it from command line enough times to get results
20150731 19:06:55< aeth> or that, yes
20150731 19:06:57< aeth> but that's no fun
20150731 19:07:17< aeth> You only need to do it for a few rounds, the later ones are too improbable to count.
20150731 19:08:21< aeth> Yes, the math is always right if the model is right, but sometimes your model is missing something so there's really no substitute for tests if you want to be sure.
20150731 19:11:11< aeth> e.g. you might not be taking resistance into account (time of day is irrelevant here because they're neutral, and it would have to be on cave for the 50% without the healing like villages give)
20150731 19:12:00< Ravana_> this specific case would assume no resists, otherwise it would be 3 hits against 1
20150731 19:12:25< aeth> right, if you do it the way you did and just take a lot of trials and get the odds, that's one way
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20150731 19:12:49< aeth> oh I should've read what you wrote :-p
20150731 19:13:05< aeth> right, assuming no resists means the math will fail
20150731 19:14:06< aeth> what I thought you meant is that I made an assumption in my statement that's incorrect, which is true.
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20150731 19:20:18< deego> Ok, I just obtained the two probabilities mentioned by forceofHabit. ForcceofHabit++, aeth++, Ravana_++ and wesnoth++ :)
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--- Log closed Sat Aug 01 00:00:37 2015