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20150801 01:31:09< ancestral> mattsc: Your 1.13.1+dev build works fine for me in 10.10
20150801 01:31:39< ancestral> mattsc: We should have StandYourGround try it out at some point
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20150801 07:37:01< wedge009> Wow. It's taken a whole week since the 'help!' news post for me to get a working build on Windows, but I think I'm finally set. Is there anything Windows-specific that needs looking at or have they already been covered by others?
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20150801 07:41:11< vultraz> wedge009: https://gna.org/bugs/?21649 is probably the biggest windows issue but it's less of an issue with wesnoth as it likely is outdated libraries
20150801 07:42:45< wedge009> Well, I'll have a look anyway. Something small for me to get started on, since I'm not really familiar with Wesnoth code. Thanks.
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20150801 08:20:11< irker224> wesnoth: Kevin Yap wesnoth:master ca07ec58ff91 / data/tools/wmllint: Extract spell check replacements http://git.io/vOYHe
20150801 08:20:11< irker224> wesnoth: Kevin Yap wesnoth:master 2e30e0e7fece / data/tools/wmllint: Improve idiomaticity of wmllint http://git.io/vOYHv
20150801 08:20:11< irker224> wesnoth: Kevin Yap wesnoth:master a3fd3c71e160 / data/tools/wmllint: Loop over lines in wmllint using enumerate() http://git.io/vOYHf
20150801 08:20:11< irker224> wesnoth: Elvish-Hunter wesnoth:master 627e00a3e447 / data/tools/wmllint: Merge pull request #428 from iKevinY/wmllint http://git.io/vOYHJ
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20150801 08:55:49< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#6921 (master - 627e00a : Elvish-Hunter): The build was broken.
20150801 08:55:49< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/73666739
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20150801 08:56:34< shadowm> wedge009: There is also https://gna.org/bugs/?21648 .
20150801 08:57:09< wedge009> Yep, seems related.
20150801 08:57:17< shadowm> wedge009: Note that one is not an immediate concern since my workaround has been in place for several versions, although if you look at src/text.cpp you'll still find interesting comments around the #ifdef _WIN32 blocks.
20150801 08:57:51< shadowm> Namely, on Windows we brute-force the alpha decoding since we seem to get pixel data in a different format (?) compared to Linux and OS X.
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20150801 08:58:59< shadowm> wedge009: That's not part of #21648 per se (it causes AA glitches with the #21648 workaround in place too, but they are extremely subtle), but it might be worth looking into it in case you are into crummy low-level stuff like that.
20150801 08:59:04< wedge009> I just tried building the last snapshot for pango - looks like too many dependencies at this point, I'll give it another try later.
20150801 08:59:27< wedge009> Heh, sadly no. But I'll keep it in mind.
20150801 08:59:34< shadowm> Yeah, I suspect you'll need to rebuild all the glib stuff, which sucks.
20150801 09:00:06< shadowm> As well as Cairo, which is in charge of the actual glyph rendering.
20150801 09:00:07< wedge009> At the very least I wanted to confirm the issue/s go away with the current GTK-related code.
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20150801 09:16:49< shadowm> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=NotSoEasyCoding&curid=2691&diff=56628&oldid=56615
20150801 09:17:18< shadowm> loonycyborg: You know, I kind of wanted you to point out you were handling it so that people interested in the task would contact you first.
20150801 09:18:08< shadowm> Just saying there's a branch doesn't actually tell people who's in charge of it unless they decide to play Git detective.
20150801 09:18:50< shadowm> For example, see the note at the end of http://wiki.wesnoth.org/NotSoEasyCoding#Generic_tab_container_widget
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20150801 10:56:36< wedge009>  Found an RPM containing MinGW32 DLLs for Cairo 1.14.2. No apparent difference so looks like it might be specific to Pango.
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20150801 11:01:25< vultraz> Well, at least we know where the problem is, then
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20150801 11:28:31< wedge009> Similarly, the ClearType issue is still present with Cairo 1.14.2. I disabled CAIRO_ANTIALIAS_GRAY so presumably it reverts to CAIRO_ANTIALIAS_DEFAULT and reproduced the text rendering in the screenshot for bug #21648.
20150801 11:31:02< wedge009> I got Pango 1.37.2 compiled (VC doesn't agree with static inline, but seems happy with static __inline), but it doesn't appear to work well with the other libraries - the application freezes with a blank screen after the initialisation is complete (before displaying the main menu).
20150801 11:32:12< vultraz> Any errors at all?
20150801 11:37:14< wedge009> No apparent ones. Will try to debug, but maybe not tonight. (I'm UTC+1000)
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20150801 11:38:38< vultraz> If you can get a stacktrace that would be helpful
20150801 11:42:06< doofus-01> zookeeper and anyone else who would be involved:  I just submitted a pull request for revisions to first scenario of SoF
20150801 11:42:50< doofus-01> I think it gets the player more involved, instead of just AIs
20150801 11:43:33< doofus-01> but it was a conservative change.
20150801 11:44:27< doofus-01> Also, my first attempt at such a thing with git or a project like this, so sorry if it wasn't done right.
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20150801 13:02:16< wedge009> vultraz and shadowm: I have to give up for now. I managed to find or compile DLLs for the latest Pango and Cairo (1.37.2 and 1.14.2 respectively), and I am still observing the same issues with the single/double new-lines and CAIRO_ANTIALIAS_DEFAULT. This is with the newer DLLs used separately and both together.
20150801 13:02:29< wedge009>  If you can let me know who saw the new-line issue go away with the newer Pango/Cairo DLLs in Windows, maybe I can get in contact with him/her and find out their set-up.
20150801 13:04:56< vultraz> Actually, we only saw it go away on OS X with newer libs
20150801 13:05:09< vultraz> So we assumed it might be the same case on windows :/
20150801 13:09:48< vultraz> This is weird, though
20150801 13:09:57< vultraz> Not sure what else could possibly cause it
20150801 13:11:00< wedge009> I was afraid that might have been the case. It wasn't clear from the comment if the 'isn't affected' was only for OS X.
20150801 13:11:42< wedge009> I did try digging into the details from Wesnoth's side before it got sent to the renderer, but I don't think I understand the code well enough to do that, if it's even possible.
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20150801 13:19:42< vultraz> wedge009: could you send me (dropbox) the pango/cairo/anything else libs you compiled? I'd like to test it here.
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20150801 13:27:46< dreamr> Greetings
20150801 13:28:38< wedge009> I don't have dropbox but you can download what I used: http://wedge009.net/miscellaneous/wedge009-dll.7z
20150801 13:29:01< wedge009> I got Cairo 1.14.2 from http://rpmfind.net//linux/RPM/fedora/devel/rawhide/i386/m/mingw32-cairo-1.14.2-2.fc23.noarch.html
20150801 13:29:14< wedge009> I compiled Pango 1.37.2 from http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/pango/1.37/
20150801 13:29:37< wedge009> ...together with gettext-runtime 0.18.2.1 from http://www.gtk.org/download/win32.php
20150801 13:29:56< wedge009> And I compiled libpng myself because I couldn't find libpng.lib and I've used it before in other projects anyway.
20150801 13:30:05< vultraz> dreamr: hello
20150801 13:30:25< wedge009> Not that it should be relevant anyway.
20150801 13:30:55< wedge009> And hello and good-bye! Need to sleep. x.x
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20150801 14:55:51< mattsc> ancestral: hi; thanks for testing, that’s great
20150801 14:56:18< mattsc> ancestral: I’ve been looking into making it work on 10.6 also a bit and I am not optimistic at the moment.
20150801 14:57:02< mattsc> Too much has changed in the SDKs and the system libraries (new libraries, them being moves around to other directories, etc.).
20150801 14:57:45< mattsc> I just don’t know enough about how to get this to work without adding a whole new set of libraries and frameworks to the Mac compile resources …
20150801 15:00:11< mattsc> I used to get annoyed when applications I was using dropped support for the previous OS X version once the new came out.  Now I can see why that is the case …
20150801 15:00:57< mattsc> I am sure there’s ways to deal with this (other than actually building everything on separate machines, which is what some of the bigger companies apparently do), I just don’t know how.
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20150801 15:02:20< mattsc> Any OS X / Xcode experts lurking who want to give it a shot?
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20150801 15:06:25< vultraz> mattsc: how far back do we have compatibility? just 10.10?
20150801 15:06:55< vultraz> Honestly, we could realistically drop support for anything below 10.8 if that would simplify things
20150801 15:12:40< vultraz> With El Capitan on the horizon, trying to support as far back as 10.6 just doesn't seem realistic anymore
20150801 15:15:09< mattsc> vultraz: the build I did yesterday appears to work 10.9 and 10.10.
20150801 15:15:23< mattsc> It does not work on 10.6
20150801 15:15:31< mattsc> I don’t know about 10.7 and 10.8
20150801 15:15:47< vultraz> Well then let's just consider 10.6 a lost cause
20150801 15:16:26< mattsc> Well, maybe we could do something like: the dmg won’t work, but here are the homebrew instructions to do it yourself
20150801 15:16:46< vultraz> Yeah
20150801 15:16:51< vultraz> If someone wants to build themselves great
20150801 15:17:19< mattsc> ancestral will have to weigh in about that, I don’t know how far back the homebrew method works (but I thought 10.6 was possible)
20150801 15:17:31< vultraz> But our 'official' package would then only support, as far as we know now, 10.9 or later.
20150801 15:18:09< mattsc> Well, hopefully by the time we’re getting into RC, somebody will have tested on 10.7 and 10.8.
20150801 15:18:38< vultraz> Hopefully
20150801 15:19:00< vultraz> I had envisioned an end-of-the-year release, but that doesn't look like that will happen at all.
20150801 15:19:19< vultraz> Though it's still possible
20150801 15:19:40< mattsc> right
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20150801 16:43:33< Flexfit> Hey guys!
20150801 16:43:38< vultraz> hello
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20150801 16:44:44< Flexfit> Do you guys still need help with the python tools?
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20150801 16:44:55< Flexfit> I finally finished cloning the repo
20150801 16:45:46< chaverma> Flexfit: sup
20150801 16:45:54< tetha> ay :)
20150801 16:46:03< chaverma> heh sweet
20150801 16:46:23< vultraz> some discussion on the python tools: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=42945
20150801 16:48:23< Flexfit> vultraz: Thanks!
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20150801 16:49:00< chaverma> i'd like to coordinate some tasks with you, tetha
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20150801 16:49:27< Flexfit> Is there a coding standard for pythong that you all are using?
20150801 16:49:38< tetha> yeah, we should see that we get the first code going around next week
20150801 16:49:59< tetha> I'm mostly following pep8
20150801 16:50:17< tetha> even though I use spaces on the inside of parenthesis
20150801 16:50:29< chaverma> pep 8 is a reasonable default that will at least be a starting point
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20150801 16:50:41< chaverma> use pycharm and it will format pep 8 by default
20150801 16:51:30< tetha> plus it's python. experience at work has shown that it's hard to have very different syntaxes in python :)
20150801 16:51:44< Flexfit> swwet, I'm downloading pycharm right now
20150801 16:51:51< tetha> once you're at 4 spaces for indentation,that's it
20150801 16:52:00< Flexfit> I've been using it at work
20150801 16:52:23< tetha> on a technical level, nose or spec?
20150801 16:52:47< Flexfit> ?
20150801 16:52:52< chaverma> as a test runner?
20150801 16:52:57< tetha> yep
20150801 16:53:07< chaverma> i've only used the builtin unittest runner(s) and py.test
20150801 16:53:33< chaverma> i've never heard of spec so i'd prefer nose if those are the choices
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20150801 16:53:45< tetha> well I don't want to depend on an IDE too much, especially since I mostlyuse vim
20150801 16:54:00< tetha> spec is a wrapper for nose with much better output
20150801 16:54:09< Flexfit> I'm not familiar with those terms
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20150801 16:54:25< Flexfit> Can you recommend a guide to get me up to speed?
20150801 16:54:25< chaverma> i'm cool with that
20150801 16:54:29< tetha> https://github.com/bitprophet/spec
20150801 16:54:38< chaverma> ah, by bitprophet
20150801 16:54:57< chaverma> fabric is super cool so i'm sure this is good too
20150801 16:55:09< Yaiyan> I'm getting a copy of the dragon book as soon as I can get one fairly cheap, so I should be able to help out with the parser
20150801 16:55:20< tetha> haha
20150801 16:55:29< tetha> just be prepared,it's not a light read :)
20150801 16:56:17< tetha> ok, so who's starting with what?
20150801 16:57:17< Yaiyan> I'm away for a week, and have limited time until the new uni term with work, so I can't start with anything major for now
20150801 16:57:45< Yaiyan> But if there's stuff being started by other people I can help with some of the smaller stuff for now
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20150801 16:58:24< tetha> so we have the guy to push the nasty stuff to, heh.
20150801 16:58:47< Flexfit> Do I checkout something from github using pycharm?
20150801 16:58:53< Yaiyan> Haha pretty much 
20150801 16:59:06< chaverma> seems like you are unsure about wmlindent but i could do a rewrite of that if you want
20150801 16:59:29< chaverma> i see that one likely component is extracting common packages that tools will use
20150801 16:59:52< chaverma> that'll be the real challenge is figuring those core packages
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20150801 17:00:05< tetha> yeah I think one good first step would be to implement some of the checking wmllint does as a simple AST-matcher
20150801 17:00:30< tetha> that'd take integration of wmlparser for now, and could get some structure going for further checks
20150801 17:00:36< tetha> *wmlparser2
20150801 17:00:54< vultraz> The suggestion for running wmllint off the preprocessor output could be promising
20150801 17:01:18< vultraz> Except as EH said, it could strip necessary comments
20150801 17:01:26< tetha> the check-part, or the migrate part? :)
20150801 17:02:02< vultraz> what'd you mean
20150801 17:02:08< vultraz> sorry I haven't been following
20150801 17:02:15< chaverma> if we want to get into a full language parser, couldn't we also start with a tokenizer as a first step?
20150801 17:02:42< tetha> as far as I understand wmllint, wmllint does some checking if the WML is sane, and some migration to keep the WML up to date with language changes
20150801 17:02:51< tetha> renaming some file names, changing some tags
20150801 17:03:13< chaverma> hmm, that's odd behavior for a linter
20150801 17:03:16< tetha> the migration needs to run on a low-level so we can maintain comments from the input
20150801 17:03:32< tetha> the checker should run on a stronger datastructure imo
20150801 17:04:46< chaverma> i could begin work on an AST
20150801 17:04:55< chaverma> i've not made one before so it'll be a learning experience heh
20150801 17:05:05< chaverma> but i don't expect it to be too hard
20150801 17:05:15< tetha> syntax trees are simple, yup
20150801 17:05:47< chaverma> do we have  new repo setup where i can push up ideas?
20150801 17:06:34< tetha> so far there's no decision on separate repo vs no separate repo, mostly opinions. would you want to weigh in, vultraz?
20150801 17:06:44< vultraz> Well
20150801 17:06:52< vultraz> I don't know about submodules or subtrees
20150801 17:07:04< vultraz> I tried to use the former once and it was a bit disastrous 
20150801 17:07:35< vultraz> On the pro side, having the tools in a separate repo would allow people to quickly work on them 
20150801 17:07:50< vultraz> On the con side, it would complicate our release process
20150801 17:08:17< chaverma> re: release, that suggests that those tools should take on some release responsibilities
20150801 17:08:28< vultraz> Well, no
20150801 17:08:35< vultraz> It's that they ship with the game
20150801 17:08:41< chaverma> right
20150801 17:08:43< vultraz> So umc authors can use them
20150801 17:08:50< vultraz> And they have to be in a specific place
20150801 17:08:53< vultraz> data/tools
20150801 17:09:16< chaverma> so, the python tools can create a pypi account and upload releases there
20150801 17:09:29< vultraz> So while we could ship them there, it might cause issues with people setting up their own repos if it's not clear they need to clone the tools repo at a specific place
20150801 17:09:33< chaverma> during a release of the game, the manager can grab the version of the tools he needs
20150801 17:09:40< Flexfit> How do I checkout a repo on pycharm?
20150801 17:09:43< vultraz> So, bottom line, right now, I think... we should stick with them in the same repo
20150801 17:10:05< vultraz> There are probably solutions to the issues, but I don't think it should be a priority right now
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20150801 17:10:35< aeth> chaverma: but right now you can git checkout 1.12 and compile it and have basically the stable game for MP, nothing missing
20150801 17:10:48< vultraz> Let's focus on improving them first, and then deal with where to put them
20150801 17:11:25< chaverma> one problem i'm foreseeing is being able to import packages from the local filesystem
20150801 17:11:52< chaverma> if these tools are a part of the main repo, those paths will not be set up
20150801 17:11:59< chaverma> and imports won't work
20150801 17:12:34< tetha> hm, that shouldn't be a problem, if your urrent working directory is set right
20150801 17:13:01< chaverma> i would not expect non-python devs to get that right
20150801 17:13:12< chaverma> i.e., trying to run from the root directory
20150801 17:13:17< tetha> ah, indeed.
20150801 17:13:49< tetha> that'd indeed require some darker magic to get right in the python code
20150801 17:14:24< Flexfit> Have there been thoughts of re-writing wesnoth to python?
20150801 17:14:24< chaverma> i mean, we could wrap all of our imports in a try/except
20150801 17:15:09< tetha> chaverma: well you do one test import before the main function, ad adjust sys.path accordingly. 
20150801 17:15:27< Yaiyan> Flexfit, why would you do that?
20150801 17:15:31< chaverma> true
20150801 17:15:46< chaverma> at least then you're restricted to having to do that for every top-level script
20150801 17:15:50< chaverma> which is not as bad
20150801 17:16:32< chaverma> another concern i'd had with the same-repo route, is versioning the tools
20150801 17:16:43< chaverma> i'd expect we'd need to be able to version them separately
20150801 17:17:09< Flexfit> Yaiyan, I guess to maybe try and attract more devs
20150801 17:17:37< aeth> Flexfit: Python is very slow and can't be sandboxed. If you want readable Wesnoth, perhaps suggest writing more of the engine in Lua
20150801 17:17:57< vultraz> Flexfit: no, we will not rewrite wesnoth in lua
20150801 17:18:15< vultraz> er
20150801 17:18:17< aeth> vultraz: more != all
20150801 17:18:18< vultraz> python
20150801 17:18:19< vultraz> sorry
20150801 17:18:31< vultraz> we will not rewrite wesnoth in python
20150801 17:18:36< vultraz> but: we do, however, want to implement more of our WML API in Lua
20150801 17:18:41< vultraz> there, I got it straight
20150801 17:18:43< vultraz> xD
20150801 17:18:49< Yaiyan> Besides, for graphics if you wanted any kind of speed you'd be restricted to opengl from my experience
20150801 17:18:59< Yaiyan> Which definitely won't help attract devs on that end :p
20150801 17:19:31< Flexfit> I see. Where are the python tools located in the repo?
20150801 17:19:49< tetha> chaverma: hmm... indeed, currently, I don't see a good way there.
20150801 17:19:50< Flexfit> Are they under utils?
20150801 17:19:59< tetha> data/tools
20150801 17:20:07< chaverma> i mean, we could write our own separate tags
20150801 17:20:19< chaverma> feels like adding hacks on top of hacks
20150801 17:21:35< Yaiyan> A separate repo sounds good to me, the packagers can always pull the latest release of the tools when packaging
20150801 17:21:46< Yaiyan> And people building from source should be used to doing that anyway
20150801 17:22:19< chaverma> and really, the existing tools can stay in data/tools until the separate repo meets a minimum standard of functionality
20150801 17:22:30< Yaiyan> Ant and maven let you pull packages from the internet when building too, I don't know if cmake can do the same?
20150801 17:23:34< chaverma> doesn't it support arbitrary commands like make? e.g., wget http://pypi.python.org/wesnoth/wml-tools-1.3.0.tar.gz
20150801 17:23:39< aeth> vultraz: imo data/lua and data/ai should be moved to scripting/lua and scripting/ai
20150801 17:23:50< aeth> It's not data, it's scripts, and it took me like a day to figure out what was going on there.
20150801 17:24:01< tetha> hm. in the end, if the tool-developers think they are stable enough to replace the current tools, it'd be their job to provide an integration with the release process to pull in the appropiate step of the tools.
20150801 17:24:24< aeth> e.g. data/lua/wml-tags.lua is part of the implementation of WML afaik, so is actually part of the implmenetation of data.
20150801 17:24:31< chaverma> tetha: exactly
20150801 17:25:04< aeth> *implementation
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20150801 17:28:30< doofus-01> Question for anyone who has played mainline campaign Sceptre of Fire:
20150801 17:28:47< aeth> It might make sense to move wesnoth/data into a wesnoth-data, but data/lua is sort of part of the core engine. So I don't think the directory layout currently makes it easy for people to make major changes cleanly.
20150801 17:28:47< doofus-01> Have you ever defeated the enemy leader in the first scenario?
20150801 17:29:12< Yaiyan> Is mainline any different to the git version?
20150801 17:29:51< doofus-01> Or the current git master version, that too
20150801 17:29:59< aeth> Yaiyan: `git checkout 1.12` and you get something close to the stable version, and can play on MP
20150801 17:30:07< Yaiyan> I mean
20150801 17:30:20< Yaiyan> I've defeated the leader on 1.13 checked out 2-3 weeks ago
20150801 17:30:28< Yaiyan> But I'm not sure if that's much different to 1.12 
20150801 17:30:30< aeth> If you knew the right revision to switch to before you switched branches, you'd be able to get exactly 1.12 (or exactly 1.13 if you stay on master)
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20150801 17:30:38< aeth> oh
20150801 17:30:44< Yaiyan> And not on my desktop atm to check if 1.12 is the same
20150801 17:31:01< doofus-01> Yaiyan - that
20150801 17:31:09< doofus-01> is fine, thanks
20150801 17:31:38< Yaiyan> It was easy difficulty mind, and I normally play medium
20150801 17:31:42< aeth> Yaiyan: there are a lot of differences apparently. "1573 commits ahead, 5800 commits behind". I'm not sure how much has changed in data/campaigns, though. https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/tree/1.12
20150801 17:32:00< Yaiyan> aeth, yeah, work on 1.13 started a while ago
20150801 17:32:51< vultraz> A LONG while ago
20150801 17:33:00< vultraz> We actually branched out back around version 1.11.10 I think
20150801 17:33:19< aeth> you can contrast https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/tree/1.12/data/campaigns with https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/tree/master/data/campaigns
20150801 17:33:19< Yaiyan> I didn't realise you did that
20150801 17:33:30< Yaiyan> So you start the next dev realea
20150801 17:33:38< Yaiyan> *release when feature freeze starts?
20150801 17:33:44< aeth> "6 months ago", "4 months ago". Sceptre_of_Fire seems to hav esome differences just quickly glancing like that.
20150801 17:34:07< doofus-01> Regarding SoF1: I was thinking of changing the 'defeat enemy leader' alternate condition (in 1.13),
20150801 17:34:19< doofus-01> but if it is actually possible, I won't
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20150801 17:34:49< aeth> doofus-01: It's certainly possible, everything's possible (especially on easy) unless the turn limit's too low.
20150801 17:34:52< aeth> RNG and all.
20150801 17:34:54< Yaiyan> Personally I'd add 'defeat enemy leaders' to scenario 1 of httt, even if it's impossible
20150801 17:35:30< Yaiyan> On easy, the elves pretty much kill the enemy leader for you
20150801 17:36:19< Flexfit> tetha: Where should I start?
20150801 17:36:35< Flexfit> I'm not sure what I should be doing.
20150801 17:36:51< Flexfit> This is my first foray into contributing for OOS
20150801 17:37:07< doofus-01> aeth, Yaiyan:  That is true, so maybe it doesn't matter.  That alternate objective won't be missed if gone?
20150801 17:37:11< aeth> It would be cool if entire campaigns branched from improbable but possible moments of campaigns. Secret Easter Egg campaigns.
20150801 17:37:33< aeth> So if you defeat the enemy leader in a very hard place like there or HttT, you get to play a completely different campaign.
20150801 17:37:40< zookeeper> doofus-01, i'm not sure if i've ever won it _without_ killing the enemy leader :P
20150801 17:38:34< doofus-01> zookeeper, fair enough, it was pretty boring moving those wagons.
20150801 17:38:35< tetha> Flexfit: did you notice something you find interesting inthe existing wml* tools and the thread?
20150801 17:39:29< zookeeper> doofus-01, indeed. i wouldn't mind if the scenario was more about cleverly moving the caravans and protecting them though
20150801 17:39:55< doofus-01> zookeeper, would it be an issue if killing the enemy leader was not possible, so that he was in the next scenario?
20150801 17:40:28< doofus-01> And moving the caravans was less tedious, of course.
20150801 17:40:39< zookeeper> doofus-01, if it was just plain made impossible via some WML cheat, then yeah, that's not very nice. besides, he does get used as the next scenario's leader if he stays alive
20150801 17:40:58< zookeeper> if he's killed, he's replaced by some other dude with a similar name
20150801 17:41:10< zookeeper> or at least that's how it was supposed to work...
20150801 17:41:41< zookeeper> i wouldn't mind if he was only made really really unlikely to be able to kill
20150801 17:41:59< zookeeper> err... to be able to be killed, i think
20150801 17:42:07< doofus-01> Hrm, I don't think I killed him, but the next guy had a slightly different name...
20150801 17:42:27< Yaiyan> I'd make your ally less powerful, and move the elves further from the caravans personally
20150801 17:42:28< doofus-01> Sure, I wouldn't make him unkillable via cheap WML tricks
20150801 17:42:53< Yaiyan> And probably give the elves a bit more money to compensate, or more villages, or something
20150801 17:44:07< zookeeper> doofus-01, yeah it looks like he's not carried over if he survives. which he should, if you ask me.
20150801 17:44:57< Flexfit> tetha: maybe syntactic and semantic validation? but I'm not sure how difficult those tasks would be. I was hoping to work on some easier tasks and work my way up to the more difficult tasks.
20150801 17:46:05< zookeeper> doofus-01, maybe i just misremember what the intent was. maybe it's just that originally it was the same guy regardless of whether he died or not, so he was replaced in the second scenario by a different one, and he was never supposed to be carried over.
20150801 17:46:23< zookeeper> i mean, i _do_ recall that originally he was the same guy regardless of whether he died or not.
20150801 17:46:28< zookeeper> but maybe i misremember the fix
20150801 17:46:58< doofus-01> zookeeper - The potential, but not guaranteed, enemy carryover sounds likke a good idea
20150801 17:47:17< zookeeper> you could make glildur a marshal and if you somehow manage to kill him, replace him in the second scenario with glindur who's just a captain
20150801 17:48:16< Yaiyan> If the leader was carried over, it might be cool if he gloated about it
20150801 17:48:16< doofus-01> Yeah, that sounds good.  I'll do that.
20150801 17:48:30< zookeeper> ...and i suppose whoever survives should also be the elf in scenario 5 who says that they've "spent years" tracking down the dwarves
20150801 17:48:40< zookeeper> (and then in 6 too)
20150801 17:48:46< zookeeper> (...if they survive)
20150801 17:49:27 * Yaiyan thought he remembered someone in here planning on entirely rewriting SoF a week or two back
20150801 17:51:56< zookeeper> actually, if you never kill glildur, you could have him carry over all the way until the final scenario
20150801 17:52:28< doofus-01> Yaiyan - If StandYourGround was serious about that, he still has time to pipe up. 
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20150801 17:53:00< doofus-01> zookeeper - could I drop in another portrait for glildur, as a placeholder?
20150801 17:53:28< doofus-01> it would help keep track of the guy.
20150801 17:55:55< zookeeper> well, easier to just give him an elvish lord's portrait or something, rather than an actual placeholder image
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20150801 17:57:05< doofus-01> right, I wasn't going to try to draw one.
20150801 17:57:22< doofus-01> Oh, you mean image path only, not moving a file.
20150801 18:09:32< zookeeper> yeah
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20150801 18:46:09< Rastus_Vernon> Hello.
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20150801 18:53:42< vultraz> Rastus_Vernon: hello
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20150801 23:01:44< shadowm> I decided to post a wall of text: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42966
20150801 23:04:41< wedge009> I don't usually dabble with add-ons so I didn't realise it was a problem. Sounds good to me, after a quick read.
20150801 23:05:18< wedge009> I just had a quick question (with hopefully a correspondingly quick answer): I noticed the title music has changed from Main Theme to Journey's End. Any particular reason for this? Just wondering.
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20150801 23:06:51< wedge009> Main Menu, not Main Theme.
20150801 23:08:02< shadowm> I like Journey's End better.
20150801 23:08:23< shadowm> I've decided that's going to be our official reason from now on, even though the change was made when I wasn't the release manager yet.
20150801 23:08:49< shadowm> There's a whole thread on the matter, too: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=41485
20150801 23:09:35< shadowm> More objectively speaking, we don't want incredibly loud music blaring through people's speakers/headphones as soon as the title screen appears.
20150801 23:09:43< wedge009> I like most of the tracks. But the old 'main menu' did have a certain starting flourish that quickly set the tone of the game.
20150801 23:09:46< wedge009> Yeah, I suppose.
20150801 23:10:30< wedge009> Journey's End has really gentle start. Nice in the right context. Just not sure about the main menu though. Either way, doesn't bother me. Just wondering, and as I said, I like just about all the music.
20150801 23:12:03< Yaiyan> Past the first 5 seconds I prefer the new one
20150801 23:12:20< wedge009> Reading the first page, looks like people are divided on the original menu track. I don't think the menu track normally plays during a game, does it?
20150801 23:12:36< wedge009> Oh well, whatever. I still listen to the Wesnoth music outside of the game as well. (:
20150801 23:13:12< wedge009> Yes, it's slow start, that's my only criticism.
20150801 23:13:18< wedge009> slow to start*
20150801 23:14:19< Yaiyan> It plays at the start of tRoW
20150801 23:15:05< wedge009> Oh, of course. Well, as long as it's in there somewhere.
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20150801 23:20:47< pydsigner> I wasn't around for the first menu music, so there's nostalgic sadness at the change, besides the fact that I never was a huge fan of Journey's End :-/
20150801 23:21:59< Xudo> shadowm, about your idea of add-on registration API. Don't you afraid that it will become another dependency hell ? Average addon codebase is small enough to afford carrying all dependencies inside
20150801 23:27:55< Xudo> External dependency packages makes sense only for images and sounds because their size is big enough.
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20150801 23:37:39< shadowm> Xudo: Okay? Wh
20150801 23:38:04< shadowm> It sounds like you parsed something I said as implying that every add-on will be required to declare dependencies.
20150801 23:38:20< shadowm> And/or be split into component packages.
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20150801 23:47:15< Xudo> I think that version number of anything what might be dependency will require additional management.  Imagine a lua helper add on named "L" and two campaigns: "C1", which require L 1.2  and "C2", which require L1.5. And L1.5 is nor backward compatible.
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20150801 23:47:41< Xudo> not*
20150801 23:48:59< Xudo> Situation is very common.
20150801 23:49:31< Yaiyan> Any reasonable maintainer would rename their add-on on compatibility changes
20150801 23:49:38< Yaiyan> But asking for that is probably unreasonable
20150801 23:49:45< Yaiyan> s/asking for/assuming/
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20150801 23:51:53< Xudo> It is much easier in our case to copy whole L 1.2 in add on C1 and L 1.5 in add-on C2 and not bother with versioning and resolving of such conflicts.
20150801 23:53:22< Yaiyan> Why not just symlink?
20150801 23:55:38< Xudo> Because symlinks will have to be implemented too.
20150801 23:55:45< shadowm> I fail to see how thi involves me at all.
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--- Log closed Sun Aug 02 00:00:32 2015