--- Log opened Sun Aug 09 00:00:08 2015
20150809 00:08:38< afre> Come to think of it, I have a lot of wood (real or fake) in my home. Translation: good point. Unless someone starts requesting another type of wood or custom texture like ms hearts - haha.
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20150809 00:51:13< Warrick_> Hello. I heard you are looking for c++ developers.
20150809 00:51:32< pydsigner> This is true.
20150809 00:54:22< Warrick_> If I wish to contribute, should I start knocking off items from the EasyCoding page, or jump into the NotSoEasyCoding items if I feel I can tackle them?
20150809 00:57:57< pydsigner> Either way.
20150809 00:58:19< pydsigner> Another place to look is the bugtracker
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20150809 01:00:23< celticminstrel> I started with one on NotSoEasyCoding, so go for it.
20150809 01:00:40< celticminstrel> Oh, I should probably make sure that one's removed.
20150809 01:01:32< celticminstrel> Ah, it was marked as done by someone, okay.
20150809 01:01:38< celticminstrel> I guess that's good enough.
20150809 01:02:32< Warrick_> Alright, I'll find something to ease me into the code
20150809 01:03:56< mattsc> Warrick_: I have a few AI bugs/features that would be great for somebody who knows C++ to look at, if you’re interested.
20150809 01:04:41< Warrick_> point me to them, though my experience with AI is nonexistent
20150809 01:04:42< mattsc> For background, I know pretty well how the AI works, but only have very basic C++ knowledge.
20150809 01:05:20< mattsc> These are really C++ things rather than AI concepts.
20150809 01:05:32< Warrick_> ah ok
20150809 01:05:47< Warrick_> that I'm much better with, bt comparison
20150809 01:05:51< Warrick_> by*
20150809 01:06:14< mattsc> Warrick_: one is the second AI task on the EasyCoding page: “Make the (old) simple aspect syntax work when  …"
20150809 01:06:39< mattsc> Note that this was intentionally disabled by Crab many years ago, so it should not be too hard to do.
20150809 01:06:55< celticminstrel> Intentionally disabled? Why?
20150809 01:07:19< mattsc> Because he thought at the time that it made more sense that way.
20150809 01:07:32< celticminstrel> Uh...
20150809 01:07:32< mattsc> He admitted later that there was no reason to keep it that way any more.
20150809 01:07:37< pydsigner> .............
20150809 01:07:37< celticminstrel> Okay...
20150809 01:07:47< celticminstrel> That... doesn't really make sense.
20150809 01:07:51< mattsc> That was “before my time”, so I am sure that there was a good reason, but I don’t know it.
20150809 01:08:23< mattsc> He probably had some other development in mind that required that, but it was never implemented.
20150809 01:08:33< mattsc> You can PM him if you really want to know.  ;)
20150809 01:08:55< mattsc> Warrick_: a second is this bug recently posted by vultraz : http://gna.org/bugs/?23720
20150809 01:09:09< mattsc> It’s been around since at least Wesnoth 1.10.
20150809 01:09:52< mattsc> Warrick_: then there’s the problem that AI evaluations on maps with lots of guardians take forever, even though the guardians most of the time don’t move at all.
20150809 01:10:45< mattsc> Warrick_: #4: E_NOT_REACHED_DESTINATION is an error but should really be warning
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20150809 01:12:22< mattsc> #5: if you add a candidate action (CA) mid turn, it gets added at the end of the CA list, rather than where it belongs according to its evaluation score (or something like that, I forgot the details, but can try to find out)
20150809 01:12:40< mattsc> Warrick_ (or anybody else): how’s that for starters?
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20150809 01:16:22< doofus-01> To anyone who cares: I have just pushed a revised SoF scenario 3 to PR#436. I think that gryphon is less annoying now, and hopefully the early events make sense.
20150809 01:16:55< doofus-01> mattsc, I missed most of what you said, not trying to be rude.
20150809 01:17:25< pydsigner> doofus-01: Just a list of potential C++ tasks
20150809 01:17:48< doofus-01> OK, thanks pydsigner.
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20150809 01:18:31< mattsc> doofus-01: yeah, just listed some AI C++ tasks that I believe to be relatively simple to take care of.
20150809 01:18:36< mattsc> I could be wrong, of course.
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20150809 01:19:35< Warrick_> they may well be simple, but one has to familiarize with the code first
20150809 01:20:05< mattsc> Warrick_: sure, but doesn’t that apply to all parts of the code?
20150809 01:20:15< celticminstrel> Indeed.
20150809 01:20:22< Warrick_> absolutely
20150809 01:20:40< mattsc> Warrick_: either way, I just wanted to throw them out there.  If you (and everybody else) decides to do something else, no harm done.
20150809 01:21:58< Warrick_> i should probably get this code to compile first, since I don't like pushing code I haven't tested locally first
20150809 01:22:21< celticminstrel> Is it correct for pango.aliases to not exist?
20150809 01:22:47< Warrick_> this codebase doesn't happen to have a visual studio solution that I can work in, does it?
20150809 01:22:56< celticminstrel> projectfiles/VC9
20150809 01:23:10< celticminstrel> Not sure if it counts as a "solution", it sounds like it might be older than that.
20150809 01:23:29< celticminstrel> But it's certainly Visual Studio.
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20150809 01:26:34< shadowm> Warrick_: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnWindows
20150809 01:26:46< Warrick_> ah thank you
20150809 01:29:35< doofus-01> I have a less technical, unrelated question:  In SoF cutscene before the mines, the player is given a couple runesmiths, as if this is some great thing.
20150809 01:29:57< doofus-01> does that mean the fighters aren't supposed to be able to advance to them?
20150809 01:30:28< celticminstrel> They normally can't.
20150809 01:30:50< doofus-01> There is an extra define in _main.cfg that enables it.
20150809 01:30:55< doofus-01> for the campaign.
20150809 01:31:03< celticminstrel> Ah, it's enabled for SoF?
20150809 01:31:24< doofus-01> yes, from the beginning.  I wonder if that was intentional.
20150809 01:31:29< celticminstrel> I dunno.
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20150809 01:32:22< doofus-01> zookeeper probably knows, maybe he'll see this later.
20150809 01:32:41< celticminstrel> Well, I've finished my XCode project reorganization, but it'd be nice if someone could double-check that it can still produce a build that will run on other computers.
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20150809 01:38:04< doofus-01> I'm going to comment that runesmith thing out.
20150809 01:38:53< Warrick_> Alright, I gotta go run some errands, but I'll be back tomorrow with more questions, no doubt.
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20150809 01:39:26< irker543> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master cd0b12387b4d / src/gui/widgets/grid.cpp: better error message http://git.io/v3UNi
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20150809 01:41:42< mattsc> celticminstrel: can you set up a PR and I’ll check it out (not today any more though, probably)
20150809 01:42:01< celticminstrel> Yeah.
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20150809 01:43:43< celticminstrel> I removed all the libX* stuff since it didn't exist and the build clearly worked without it.
20150809 01:45:19< mattsc> celticminstrel: okay
20150809 01:45:42< mattsc> FYI, I’ll stay logged on for now, but I want be at the computer much any more today.
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20150809 01:48:54< shadowm> mattsc, celticminstrel: Shouldn't ancestral test it too?
20150809 01:49:02< celticminstrel> Probably.
20150809 01:49:02< shadowm> (PR #448, that is.)
20150809 01:54:02< mattsc> shadowm: yes, that would be good
20150809 01:54:42< shadowm> Can you take care of prodding him? :p
20150809 01:54:58< mattsc> Will do.  :)
20150809 01:55:26< mattsc> Just another FYI, I’ll be going camping Tue-Sun next week, so I’ll be entirely out of contact during that time.
20150809 01:55:55< shadowm> Okay.
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20150809 01:58:05< mattsc> ancestral: prod
20150809 01:58:13< mattsc> hi
20150809 01:58:16< ancestral> Hi
20150809 01:58:29< mattsc> Could you test PR #448 as well?
20150809 01:58:56< mattsc> I’ll do so, but probably won’t have time for it any more today.
20150809 01:59:23< ancestral> Sure
20150809 01:59:32< mattsc> Thanks.
20150809 01:59:49< mattsc> I also have a few questions/suggestions for you concerning what to do about the OS X releases (but don’t have time right now)
20150809 02:00:13< mattsc> Just pinging you for now, will be afk for a while...
20150809 02:00:53< ancestral> I’ll be around more in the next three days
20150809 02:02:26< ancestral> OHHHHH pull requst, not bug number
20150809 02:03:20< celticminstrel> :P
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20150809 02:14:38< celticminstrel> I have concluded that [fire_event]id= would be completely different from what [fire_event]name= currently does.
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20150809 02:29:11< mattsc> celticminstrel, ancestral: actually I happened to have time to test it (since it runs mostly on itself)
20150809 02:29:33< mattsc> It compiles without problems and runs (after I replace the pango modules with my own)
20150809 02:29:43< mattsc> Very nice to have the files in order like that!
20150809 02:41:05< celticminstrel> Incidentally, the actual sorting part was a matter of several "right-click > Sort by Name".
20150809 02:41:25< celticminstrel> ^right-click group
20150809 02:41:49< mattsc> great
20150809 02:41:58< celticminstrel> The hard part was matching the group structure to the filesystem structure.
20150809 02:45:54< ancestral> Yeah that’s been a pain
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20150809 02:47:49< pydsigner> The fact that the editor path entry textbox can overflow in 1.12 has been noted, right?
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20150809 03:43:14< irker543> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master cd50036363d6 / src/help/help_topic_generators.cpp: Restore a check to prevent portrait-less units from using a scaled sprite instea http://git.io/v3TOC
20150809 03:43:37< vultraz> Fixes the help issue, but it's hacky in any case
20150809 03:44:07< mattsc> ancestral: I have to sign off, but I’ll check the logs later.
20150809 03:44:29< ancestral> Cool
20150809 03:44:40< mattsc> If PR 448 works for you, we (either one of us) can merge it, as far as I am concerned.
20150809 03:44:46< mattsc> ttyl
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20150809 03:46:30< ancestral> I’ll try it out tonight or tomorrow
20150809 03:47:03< celticminstrel> Emphasis on "distributable"!
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20150809 04:52:44< irker543> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth:master b9c6ab59d6a2 / changelog data/core/macros/utils.cfg: Fix WML variable leak in RECRUIT_UNIT_VARIATIONS http://git.io/v3TCe
20150809 04:52:47< irker543> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth:1.12 6464c6e1b8e1 / changelog data/core/macros/utils.cfg: Fix WML variable leak in RECRUIT_UNIT_VARIATIONS http://git.io/v3TCv
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20150809 05:09:05< doofus-01> How is SoF mainline?
20150809 05:09:23< celticminstrel> ?
20150809 05:09:49< shadowm> Is there something that makes it unworthy of the status in your view?
20150809 05:10:33< doofus-01> Sorry for th arrogant comment, should have thought more before hitting 'enter'
20150809 05:11:27< doofus-01> But it is not very good.
20150809 05:12:53< doofus-01> I am looking at the mines scenario
20150809 05:13:01< celticminstrel> In what sense? Technical, writing, etc.
20150809 05:13:23< doofus-01> Technical, writing, you got it.
20150809 05:13:41< doofus-01> the balance is surely something that has had a lot of work
20150809 05:13:58< doofus-01> and I am very reluctant to mess with that
20150809 05:14:43< doofus-01> but as far as story-telling goes, it is very weird.
20150809 05:14:50< celticminstrel> What's wrong with it? (I haven't played SoF, by the way.)
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20150809 05:15:31< doofus-01> Well, turin was a valued member of the early Wesnoth team
20150809 05:15:58< doofus-01> but he was 13 or something, and had no editor
20150809 05:16:24< doofus-01> I don't mean to insult his past talents
20150809 05:16:48< doofus-01> but they were accepted a little too uncritically
20150809 05:17:02< shadowm> :|
20150809 05:17:33< doofus-01> Yeah, throwing rocks is easy, that's not my point
20150809 05:17:41< shadowm> "I don't mean to say X but <implication of X>."
20150809 05:17:59< doofus-01> ?
20150809 05:18:05< celticminstrel> You haven't actually answered my question yet.
20150809 05:18:06< shadowm> That's what you just did.
20150809 05:18:33< shadowm> Say "I don't mean to say X", then proceed to say X with other words. That's a self-defeating statement.
20150809 05:19:22< iceiceice> ...
20150809 05:19:41< shadowm> Wesnoth is coded, art-designed, and written by complete amateurs. I think it's to be expected that things could use improvement, especially as time passes by and we learn from past mistakes.
20150809 05:20:17< celticminstrel> I asked "what's wrong with it", you proceeded to explain why you thought the something wrong had come about without actually saying what the something wrong was.
20150809 05:20:42< doofus-01> OK, OK, give me time to respond!
20150809 05:22:01< doofus-01> Have you played Sky-One's campaigns?
20150809 05:22:11< celticminstrel> Nope.
20150809 05:22:57< shadowm> But I'm tempted to say this: there are only four campaigns I've not played or completed that are currently in mainline (DM, DW, SotBE, LoW). The rest (and this includes SoF and surprisingly enough NR) seems perfectly fine to me writing-wise -- as in they are (mostly) "okay", average, not bad but also not memorable.
20150809 05:23:00< doofus-01> I'll give a response to this, but I can't do it on IRC, sorry.  I'll post it to the forums.
20150809 05:23:41< celticminstrel> I see.
20150809 05:24:08< doofus-01> Like I said, I know throwing rocks is easy.  I'm trying to be constructive, that's what my PR is about.
20150809 05:24:58< doofus-01> But short answer is, I've been in UMC-land for a while
20150809 05:25:14< shadowm> (Ultimately, people come here to play with their miniature soldiers rather than read a top-selling novel. Hence the mainline campaigns' averageness is not an *important* bug.)
20150809 05:25:27< celticminstrel> Heh.
20150809 05:25:48< ancestral> doofus-01: I’m curious to read your findings, but I hope you’ll have a proposal?
20150809 05:26:29< ancestral> “This thing isn’t that great; so, that being said, here’s what we should do…”
20150809 05:26:39< doofus-01> shadowm- Fine.  Glad it is not important, I'd hate to waste my time any further.
20150809 05:26:56< doofus-01> ancestral - I am trying
20150809 05:26:59< ancestral> :)
20150809 05:27:06< shadowm> I didn't say it's not a bug, only that it's not as important as to warrant rejecting a campaign or kicking it out of mainline.
20150809 05:27:21< doofus-01> PR#436
20150809 05:27:35< shadowm> Otherwise we'd have to start by purging our flagship campaign.
20150809 05:27:44< doofus-01> I wasn't saying it should be kicked, sorry.
20150809 05:28:04< doofus-01> it was a moment of frustration
20150809 05:30:14< doofus-01> I am trying to revise it, without re-writing it.
20150809 05:35:30< doofus-01> Anyone questioning my sanity or motives should play SoF.  Like I said, I'll have something to say on the forums.  Bye.
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20150809 05:45:02< Xara> A question concerning a PR(#439) I made: I tried to make several [event]s that are meant to be placed into every scenario. The codes failed to work as intended due to a bug in 1.13(leaders' [unit][event] not working), I tried a workaround, but it is proven not fully working now. So what should I do?
20150809 05:45:37< shadowm> Probably wait until that bug is fixed.
20150809 05:47:06< Xara> shall I just leave the PR open?
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20150809 05:50:45< shadowm> Yes.
20150809 05:52:58< shadowm> Anyone here knows how I'd cancel an attack sequence from an start-of-attack event handler ([event] name=attack) without killing or moving the participants?
20150809 05:53:45< celticminstrel> I think putting up a message cancels the attack, but that's probably not what you want (and is probably a bug as well).
20150809 05:54:18< shadowm> That must be a bug, because that doesn't happen in 1.12.x.
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20150809 05:54:47< shadowm> I know because I already do that in the event handler.
20150809 05:54:51< celticminstrel> I thought I remembered it happening in 1.12.x, but I could be remembering wrong.
20150809 05:54:59< celticminstrel> I also remember it not happening in 1.12.x, I think.
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20150809 06:05:59< doofus-01> Actually, I'm not writing anything on the forums.  This was just much more stress than it's worth.  My answer to smug... folks... like iceiceice, ancestral, and shadowm is in PR#436.  If that's not good enough, then fine. 
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20150809 06:06:26< celticminstrel> Uh.
20150809 06:06:37< celticminstrel> Calling them smug is a bit...
20150809 06:06:38< shadowm> I'm sorry?
20150809 06:06:54< celticminstrel> Also, why does Wesnoth not have a confirmation of quit?
20150809 06:07:01< celticminstrel> A quit confirmation.
20150809 06:07:05< celticminstrel> Why did I say it the other way.
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20150809 06:07:28< shadowm> celticminstrel: It does ask whether you want to quit or not when you press Ctrl+Q or use the menu optin to quit from an ongoing game.
20150809 06:07:44< shadowm> I guess you used the window's close button instead?
20150809 06:07:47< celticminstrel> In 1.12 it doesn't ask on Cmd-Q.
20150809 06:08:02< shadowm> Is that the OS X equivalent of Alt+F4?
20150809 06:08:06< celticminstrel> Uh.
20150809 06:08:11< ancestral> Yes
20150809 06:08:25< celticminstrel> It should be the equivalent of Ctrl-Q, and in SDL I think it triggers a quit event or something?
20150809 06:08:27< shadowm> Alt+F4 does not display the prompt either.
20150809 06:08:29< doofus-01> Maybe IRC is just not my thing, this is confusing.
20150809 06:08:44< shadowm> No, it's not the equivalent of Ctrl+Q in this case.
20150809 06:09:07< celticminstrel> It probably should be.
20150809 06:09:24< celticminstrel> Why do they not display a prompt?
20150809 06:09:29< doofus-01> If someone said the same things in person, it would be a confrontation.
20150809 06:09:42< doofus-01> Sorry if I misread.
20150809 06:09:59< celticminstrel> And I have no idea what doofus-01 is talking about anymore.
20150809 06:10:16< shadowm> doofus-01: I rather think/hope we both misread each other.
20150809 06:10:56< doofus-01> shadowm - I think so, hope so.
20150809 06:11:08< shadowm> I did not say there shouldn't be improvements. I merely stated that these issues are not big enough to warrant the campaign being rejected from mainline, neither at the time it was accepted (1.3.x) or now.
20150809 06:11:16< celticminstrel> So anyway, why do Cmd-Q and Alt-F4 not display a prompt?
20150809 06:12:14< ancestral> Great question
20150809 06:12:26< shadowm> Shrug.
20150809 06:12:33< celticminstrel> I see.
20150809 06:12:35< ancestral> Some games and apps do it
20150809 06:12:37< ancestral> Some don't
20150809 06:12:43< ancestral> Probably a style thing
20150809 06:12:59< celticminstrel> It doesn't seem right to not do so.
20150809 06:13:03< ancestral> Maybe they assume the users who press the keystroke know what they’re doing, because they’re pressing it
20150809 06:13:13< ancestral> Everyone else and their mother meanwhile presses escape
20150809 06:13:14< celticminstrel> Especially since Cmd-Q is easily hit by mistake.
20150809 06:13:15< shadowm> It's even possible that no-one thought of this when the code handling the WM event was introduced.
20150809 06:13:26< celticminstrel> Admittedly that's not true of Alt-F4.
20150809 06:13:26< ancestral> celticminstrel: It is?
20150809 06:13:30< celticminstrel> Yes.
20150809 06:13:53< ancestral> I suppose if command keystrokes are being done in the game
20150809 06:13:54< shadowm> (I at least suspect the key sequences in question are handled as a window manager event rather than a Wesnoth hotkey.)
20150809 06:14:07< ancestral> Which reminds me
20150809 06:14:15< doofus-01> shadowm - No more escalation, I offer you my apologies.  I'll try to keep my gripes productive, in that pull request.
20150809 06:14:16< celticminstrel> If I remember from when I did SDL stuff, I think they trigger a special quit event.
20150809 06:14:18< ancestral> So many of the hotkeys make very little sense
20150809 06:15:20< shadowm> Well, if you have more sensible defaults in mind (keeping in mind that OS X tends to do things *very* differently from Windows and Linux)...
20150809 06:15:27< ancestral> http://r.wesnoth.org/t41525
20150809 06:16:15< shadowm> Addon Feedback forum.
20150809 06:16:24< shadowm> :I
20150809 06:16:32< ancestral> Whoops
20150809 06:16:35< ancestral> Sorry
20150809 06:16:50< shadowm> I mean the thread is in that forum.
20150809 06:16:54-!- Shackra [~Jorge@186.177.2.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20150809 06:17:01< celticminstrel> What thread?
20150809 06:17:08< ancestral> http://r.wesnoth.org/p580036
20150809 06:17:13< shadowm> celticminstrel: http://r.wesnoth.org/t41525
20150809 06:17:39< ancestral> I might have a typo for zoom out, I’d have to review it
20150809 06:17:45< shadowm> ancestral: The link was correct the first time.
20150809 06:18:09< shadowm> I'm just saying, it's not exactly visible for anyone that cares about usability issues.
20150809 06:18:22< ancestral> Oh never mind, it’s no typo
20150809 06:18:49< shadowm> Grave accent for console is even worse than : for me.
20150809 06:19:01< ancestral> When I’m playing a game
20150809 06:19:12< ancestral> (and maybe I’m in the minority here?)
20150809 06:19:26< ancestral> I don’t want to be holding down modifier keys all the time to do simple commands
20150809 06:20:05< shadowm> ` is a dead key in Spanish keyboards, and it's a dead *third*-level key in Latinamerican keyboards.
20150809 06:20:27< ancestral> Here’s the good news
20150809 06:20:34< celticminstrel> That shouldn't matter, should it?
20150809 06:20:38< ancestral> The addon makes it work so either works
20150809 06:21:15< ancestral> shadowm: I’m sure you’re right, but so many games (I’m thinking of FPSes like Skyrim or Half Life, etc.) use ` for the console
20150809 06:21:15< shadowm> That means that in my case I'd have to hold Alt Gr and press } to get `, and then it remains to be seen if SDL will handle that as a normal key or do the usual dead key procedure (which requires you to press *another* key or the same key twice).
20150809 06:21:34< iceiceice> good thing its all fully configurable
20150809 06:21:51< ancestral> regardless, the original keystroke will continue to work
20150809 06:22:05< ancestral> The asterisks are the only keys that changed in this addon
20150809 06:22:37< shadowm> Ahhhhhhhh, I get it now.
20150809 06:22:59< shadowm> No asterisk: new sequence is an alternative. Asterisk: new sequence replaces old the sequence.
20150809 06:23:04< ancestral> Yeah
20150809 06:23:08< shadowm> ... the old sequence.
20150809 06:23:11< ancestral> Admittedly, not the best communicated
20150809 06:23:46< ancestral> Anyway, day 1 of me playing Wesnoth I ever understood why Recruit, perhaps the most common command used in the game, wasn’t just R
20150809 06:24:08< shadowm> Yeah, I don't know, I'll defer to the opinion of people who actually play games.
20150809 06:24:40-!- doofus-01 [~aristede@2601:647:4502:e370:c654:44ff:fe28:1054] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20150809 06:24:43< shadowm> Space is currently used as the Next Unit command.
20150809 06:24:50< ancestral> Also can’t say how much the planning mode hotkey of P infuriates me
20150809 06:25:02< ancestral> shadowm: Did that change?
20150809 06:25:17< shadowm> Wait, ugh. My head is somewhere else.
20150809 06:25:47< shadowm> n is the Next Unit command, space is the "end this particular unit's turn" command.
20150809 06:26:03< shadowm> What this does is probably the least evident aspect of Wesnoth's interface ever.
20150809 06:27:04< ancestral> Space is commonly used in games as “do nothing, move along”
20150809 06:27:22< shadowm> Basically, it's a combination of Next Unit and also sets the orb in the UI to display as if the unit has used up all its moves (even though it hasn't and the action can be reversed).
20150809 06:27:40< shadowm> That allows you to do... exactly what you just said.
20150809 06:28:33-!- EdB [~edb@89-158-11-138.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150809 06:29:09< shadowm> So yeah, the point is that it is a meaningful action that's distinct from t (continue move).
20150809 06:29:37 * ancestral nods
20150809 06:29:53< shadowm> E doesn't toggle ellipses, does it? I thought it was Ctrl+E.
20150809 06:30:20< shadowm> It is Ctrl+E, at least on non-Mac.
20150809 06:30:56< ancestral> Ah you are right
20150809 06:31:09< shadowm> Redo: I've seen Ctrl+Y used inconsistently with some applications for this instead of Ctrl+Shift+Z.
20150809 06:32:20< shadowm> I didn't even know we had a hotkey to select the leader.
20150809 06:33:08< shadowm> In general, our hotkeys system suffers from the major design flaw of not being discoverable without going into Preferences → Hotkeys .
20150809 06:33:15< celticminstrel> After a long chain of jumping into functions I finally found the event handling code. A quit event just throws CVideo::quit().
20150809 06:34:06< shadowm> And even then, no-one can be reasonably expected to skim the whole hotkey list to search for commonly used actions like next unit, etc. In other words, everything that isn't included in the in-game menus might as well not exist.
20150809 06:34:57< celticminstrel> And it kind of looks like there isn't any really good place to catch that to put up a confirmation dialog...
20150809 06:35:08< shadowm> With our current API, it shouldn't be too hard to implement a help page that lists the (configured) hotkeys for some of the most important game actions, but someone has to do that (maybe here's an idea for NSEC?).
20150809 06:35:13< celticminstrel> I don't think it makes sense to do so in controller_base?
20150809 06:35:35< shadowm> Anyway, the bottomline is that ancestral has the right idea and we might want to check with other people who play games.
20150809 06:36:00< celticminstrel> Oh, there's a handle_event function. Hmm.
20150809 06:37:04< celticminstrel> So if the throw was removed...
20150809 06:37:16< ancestral> shadowm: Thanks
20150809 06:37:19< shadowm> Also, should the screenshot and map screenshot actions have hotkeys assigned to them by default? If so, what hotkeys?
20150809 06:37:27< ancestral> (And fixed that table with Ctrl+E since I’m staring at it now)
20150809 06:37:39< shadowm> I tend to assign them F12 and F11 every time I start a clean preferences dir.
20150809 06:38:01< ancestral> Calling all Dota players!
20150809 06:38:32< celticminstrel> I think preferences should be migrated when possible.
20150809 06:38:41< celticminstrel> At least from the previous version.
20150809 06:39:48< shadowm> This is (rather amusingly) forced on Linux because of a bizarre design decision.
20150809 06:40:02< celticminstrel> What is? Migrating preferences?
20150809 06:40:16< celticminstrel> Not migrating preferences?
20150809 06:40:16< shadowm> Sharing, rather than migrating.
20150809 06:40:57< ancestral> Ah
20150809 06:41:12< ancestral> I agree with celticminstrel here
20150809 06:41:45< ancestral> I guess the only thing would be
20150809 06:41:54< ancestral> Let’s say you have 1.12 and 1.14
20150809 06:41:56-!- genbattle [~genbattle@115-188-147-250.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20150809 06:42:04< shadowm> On OS X and Windows you get version-specific user dirs (combined user data and user config). On Linux this *used* to be the case before 1.9.x, and can still be the case for custom builds; but by default you now have separate user config and user data dir, the latter residing on a versioned dir while the first doesn't.
20150809 06:42:08< celticminstrel> Oh, yeah, going back two versions would make sense, actually.
20150809 06:42:20< ancestral> And separate prefs
20150809 06:42:35< shadowm> *in
20150809 06:42:43< ancestral> Now let’s say you delete the 1.14 prefs because you’re having crashes or doing some troubleshooting or whatever
20150809 06:42:58< ancestral> If you delete that pref file, should the game migrate the 1.12 prefs again?
20150809 06:43:08< ancestral> And how would it know you wouldn’t? Unless it asked you?
20150809 06:43:27< shadowm> The game could check if the previous version prefs exist and ask you about migrating them if they do.
20150809 06:44:00< ancestral> So if you don’t have a pref file for the version you’re on, you should get a dialog box asking?
20150809 06:44:17< shadowm> Yeah.
20150809 06:44:19< ancestral> What if you never installed Wesnoth before? Wouldn’t a dialog box like that seem confusing?
20150809 06:44:33< shadowm> Hence it should check if the previous prefs exist before asking anything.
20150809 06:44:36< ancestral> Or would Wesnoth somehow have logic to determine a previous version was not already installed?
20150809 06:44:39< ancestral> Yeah?
20150809 06:44:54< shadowm> That requires some knowledge of where they might be expected to exist.
20150809 06:45:04< ancestral> And it would have to look in the default paths, because how would it look for custom paths?
20150809 06:45:46< shadowm> It couldn't (except possibly on Windows, but only if the installer was made to add relevant information to the system Registry).
20150809 06:46:02< celticminstrel> If you set custom paths, how does it know to look in the custom paths instead of the default paths?
20150809 06:46:15< ancestral> Is there a reason we need separate folders for different versions?
20150809 06:46:21< celticminstrel> If there's custom paths, it should be detectable.
20150809 06:46:47< ancestral> s/folders/directories
20150809 06:46:48< celticminstrel> Well, unless you set the paths with something like environment variables or command-line options.
20150809 06:46:56< shadowm> ancestral: Say the preferences file syntax changes between X.Y and U.V.
20150809 06:47:21< shadowm> (For a real-world example, look at 1.12 vs. 1.10 with the friends list. Sadly, no-one added a compatibility path for this apparently.)
20150809 06:47:21< ancestral> So convert it
20150809 06:47:26 * celticminstrel blink.
20150809 06:47:28< ancestral> Let me rephrase
20150809 06:47:33< celticminstrel> Oh my, it's almost 3am.
20150809 06:47:34< ancestral> and build my argument
20150809 06:47:59< celticminstrel> The preferences file probably isn't going to change its basic syntax.
20150809 06:48:12< celticminstrel> That is, it's probably always going to be key=value pairs, right?
20150809 06:48:19< celticminstrel> Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno.
20150809 06:48:19< ancestral> Hmm
20150809 06:48:34< shadowm> celticminstrel: It'll always be valid WML, yes.
20150809 06:48:44< ancestral> So, why can’t the preferences just all be in one directory?
20150809 06:48:47< celticminstrel> However, if you assume that, you can put the version as one of those key-value pairs.
20150809 06:49:18< shadowm> My argument here is that you can't be expected to use 1.12's preferences file with 1.10, and that if the game performed any conversions on it, they would be backwards-incompatible.
20150809 06:49:23< celticminstrel> So then it can always detect if it needs to convert or, if they're too old (eg you updated from 1.8 to 1.12 or something), start afresh.
20150809 06:49:45< ancestral> Wesnoth_1.10.cfg   Wesnoth_1.12.cfg
20150809 06:49:47< shadowm> In particular since we can't change 1.10.x clients to handle the structure changes and force people to upgrade.
20150809 06:50:05-!- Xara2 [Yangyf@2001:cc0:2020:4010:d87d:287c:e26a:fb09] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150809 06:50:06< shadowm> Anyway, what I said applies to the user config dir. The user data dir is a far more complicated case, because add-ons almost certainly break between two stable series.
20150809 06:50:16< ancestral> Correct
20150809 06:50:26< shadowm> Saves are a hit-and-miss case.
20150809 06:50:39< ancestral> Unless there is an identifier with the addons saying what version of Wesnoth they’re compatible with
20150809 06:50:40< shadowm> hit-or-miss.
20150809 06:51:02< shadowm> What would the point of copying incompatible add-ons be?
20150809 06:51:09< ancestral> No they wouldn’t be copied
20150809 06:51:11< celticminstrel> ...oh, this somehow reminds me, maybe EffectWML could gain a way to add advancement options.
20150809 06:51:14< shadowm> Sharing.
20150809 06:51:18< celticminstrel> Or remove advancement options.
20150809 06:51:20< ancestral> Or even shared
20150809 06:51:24< ancestral> If incompatible
20150809 06:52:17< ancestral> I’m brainstorming here, I realize this may not be practical (and I appreciate you guys “riffing” along)
20150809 06:53:02< shadowm> Okay, we could have add-ons declare the Wesnoth version(s) they work with in the manifest model I proposed, but I'm not entirely sure what the player would gain other than saving up a few downloads (and that's only in the event that the add-ons on the old version were already made to work with the new version).
20150809 06:53:27-!- Xara [Yangyf@2001:cc0:2020:4010:c4e3:65ef:b2c9:65e2] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150809 06:53:40< ancestral> Well, there may be some players who do have two versions?
20150809 06:53:52< ancestral> 1.12 and 1.13/14
20150809 06:54:23< ancestral> They download dev and say “oh no! where did all my friends go?” and then go back to 1.12
20150809 06:54:46< celticminstrel> Which reminds me again - incremental downloads.
20150809 06:55:00< shadowm> Well, sure. To gve an example, I developed most of AtS on 1.10.x but continually tested some bits and pieces on 1.11.x. Later, I switched prmary development to 1.11.x and continued to test on 1.10.x. All this using a single codebase.
20150809 06:55:33< celticminstrel> I think it would be perfectly acceptable to keep the separate directories but offer migrating the preferences.
20150809 06:55:44< ancestral> I suppose this isn’t a whole lot different than the current setup
20150809 06:56:23< ancestral> celticminstrel: Incremental downloads? Like, an auto-updater?
20150809 06:56:38< celticminstrel> Download only the files that changed.
20150809 06:56:44< ancestral> Once upon a time I created a script that did just that
20150809 06:56:54< ancestral> It diffed all the text files and created patches
20150809 06:56:59< shadowm> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/NotSoEasyCoding#Incremental_upgrades_and_uploads
20150809 06:57:05< ancestral> And then took all the new changed binary files
20150809 06:57:13< ancestral> Then bundled it as an update
20150809 06:57:18< celticminstrel> I think hashing is probably better.
20150809 06:57:37< celticminstrel> Well, with just hashing you don't have patches though, so it's a bit bigger...
20150809 06:57:38< ancestral> The idea would be someone would prepare the update
20150809 06:58:03< ancestral> For downlod
20150809 06:58:09< ancestral> *download
20150809 06:58:15< celticminstrel> Eh, that's an extra troublesome step.
20150809 06:58:21< celticminstrel> You can't really automate it then.
20150809 06:58:28< ancestral> Eh?
20150809 06:58:41< celticminstrel> Unless you want to start storing 50 update patches for each addon.
20150809 06:58:47< ancestral> It could be a script the packager runs
20150809 06:58:56< ancestral> Oh for the addons
20150809 06:59:02< ancestral> I see
20150809 06:59:09< celticminstrel> Huh? Were we on different pages somehow?
20150809 06:59:22< ancestral> I was talking about Wesnoth.exe/Wesnoth.app
20150809 06:59:25< shadowm> Yeah, I thought we were discussing add-ons.
20150809 06:59:25< ancestral> :-P
20150809 06:59:31< celticminstrel> XD
20150809 06:59:37< ancestral> I see, yes, add-ons
20150809 06:59:44< celticminstrel> Yeah, for the app, what you describe is fine.
20150809 07:00:04< ancestral> So basically, uploading like pushing up in git
20150809 07:00:30< shadowm> For Windows, aquileia is working on an upgrader atm. Since I barely know anything about OS X (other than the fact that the bundle is dropped somewhere rather than installed system-wide), I have no idea how this would work there.
20150809 07:00:31< ancestral> People would “git pull” the latest
20150809 07:01:06< celticminstrel> You can distribute a pkg instead of a dmg for Mac.
20150809 07:01:11< shadowm> And Linux is a can of worms no-one will ever want to touch.
20150809 07:01:12< celticminstrel> dmg is generally recommended though.
20150809 07:01:40< celticminstrel> You could however distribute the game as a dmg and also offer a pkg as a patch-applier or something.
20150809 07:02:05< ancestral> shadowm: Could the add-on server work off a version-control system?
20150809 07:02:36< shadowm> It'd be a lot of work to implement.
20150809 07:03:13< ancestral> I’m just envisioning something similar to git or svn with regards to pushing/pulling
20150809 07:03:15< celticminstrel> It's probably easier just to store hashes for all files.
20150809 07:03:21< shadowm> I'm the current campaignd maintainer and I'd not really want to even consider the task.
20150809 07:03:42< celticminstrel> So when a user decides to update an addon, they transmit basically a directory listing along with the hashes.
20150809 07:03:44< shadowm> Mostly because it becomes an optimization problem.
20150809 07:04:03< celticminstrel> Maybe that's what the wiki says. I read it at one point but forgot.
20150809 07:04:09< shadowm> (i.e. how to store things efficiently, how to service requests efficiently, and so on.)
20150809 07:04:33< ancestral> How large are some of the largest add-ons anyway?
20150809 07:04:41< shadowm> celticminstrel: My idea is just hashes and transmitting unmatching/missing files.
20150809 07:04:53< celticminstrel> I think that's roughly what I was saying.
20150809 07:04:56< shadowm> ancestral: Monstrously large.
20150809 07:05:05< ancestral> Like, > 100 MB?
20150809 07:05:11< shadowm> Go here and click on the Size column twice: http://addons.wesnoth.org/1.12/
20150809 07:05:26< ancestral> So no
20150809 07:05:30< ancestral> < 100 MB
20150809 07:05:34< shadowm> No, I doubt anyone would ever manage to upload 100 MiB without campaignd mysteriously giving up on the upload.
20150809 07:05:48< shadowm> Because that's a thing it tends to do, to me at least.
20150809 07:06:09< ancestral> Not to sound arrogant or pretentious, but
20150809 07:06:41< ancestral> In 2015, downloading less than 100 MB to update anything is acceptable
20150809 07:06:58< ancestral> (yes, it’s overkill if only 5% of the files changed)
20150809 07:07:08< shadowm> Mobile broadband.
20150809 07:07:33< ancestral> Never mind how long it takes for Wesnoth itself to download…
20150809 07:07:35< shadowm> Think under 256 Kb/s (that's kilobits, not kilobytes).
20150809 07:09:33< shadowm> (That's 31.25 KiB/s.)
20150809 07:09:49< shadowm> (And that's my *top* speed when throttled. My avg speed is usually somewhere around 15 KiB/s.)
20150809 07:10:09< iceiceice> shadowm, you have an unusually weak internet connection
20150809 07:10:29< iceiceice> this should not be considered a point of reference for the user base
20150809 07:10:59< shadowm> (Furthermore, if I exceed the monthly 20 GiB quota, I get throttled down to 32 Kb/s (3.9 KiB/s) top.
20150809 07:11:27< shadowm> iceiceice: Mobile broadband. Metered connections. These are things that I'm fairly sure exist elsewhere in the world.
20150809 07:11:45< shadowm> I worked with a Wesnoth artist who was on a similarly metered connection, too.
20150809 07:11:53< iceiceice> in what year
20150809 07:11:59< shadowm> 2013.
20150809 07:12:35< iceiceice> lots of people have metered connections but in most parts of the world they get more than 30 kb/s
20150809 07:12:55< shadowm> I know this doesn't reflect the *average* user experience (especially if you limit yourself to some parts of the U.S. and certain European countries), but it doesn't hurt to consider it.
20150809 07:13:21< ancestral> Anyway, partial downloads are great, I just wonder if the payoff is worth the effort for addons (where the good ones probably average around 10-20 MB)
20150809 07:13:27< shadowm> Especially when many people continue to put off upgrading between stable releases.
20150809 07:13:51< shadowm> (Surely it can't be just because they have to go to wesnoth.org to start the download.)
20150809 07:14:37< shadowm> ancestral: I believe it is, hence the NSEC entry. :p
20150809 07:14:54< shadowm> I know the odds someone will come to me with a patch for that are next to nil, anyway.
20150809 07:15:33< shadowm> Even though my approach seems like a sensible balance between implementation cost and results.
20150809 07:15:55-!- [Relic] [~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:2033:7dc1:115b:dece] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150809 07:23:20< iceiceice> easy for you to say when you dont plan to do the work :p
20150809 07:24:38< celticminstrel> Well, I've just implemented [effect]apply_to=advances_to.
20150809 07:24:46< celticminstrel> I have no idea whether it actually works.
20150809 07:25:27< celticminstrel> And I'm not quite sure how I should test it. I'll figure something out eventually.
20150809 07:26:51< shadowm> Easy, drop a unit in the test scenario with an appropriate object or trait with the effect, and give it 99% XP.
20150809 07:27:53< celticminstrel> This involves writing a test scenario, right?
20150809 07:29:02< shadowm> celticminstrel: Depends. I described point 1.1 from http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoftwareTesting . The laternative is point 1.3.
20150809 07:30:08< shadowm> A WML unit test would be a bit more involved but certainly doable (unstore_unit should advance a unit that has 100% XP when unstored).
20150809 07:31:26< celticminstrel> Probably best to write one in any case, but verifying that it actually works can be separate.
20150809 07:31:38< celticminstrel> The unit test is to ensure it continues to work.
20150809 07:32:06< celticminstrel> The loading bar restarted.
20150809 07:32:11< celticminstrel> Is this normal?
20150809 07:32:54< shadowm> When running the test scenario? Yes.
20150809 07:34:12< shadowm> It restarts for the same reason it starts from zero when you load the game and pick a campaign or load a game from the title screen. It's just that in this mode there is no title screen, and the code wasn't refactored in a way that allows us to set up the environment for the test scenario right away.
20150809 07:34:23< shadowm> (IIRC.)
20150809 07:34:41< celticminstrel> ...so... I guess 1.1 involves editing the test scenario?
20150809 07:34:50< shadowm> Yeah.
20150809 07:35:04< celticminstrel> Because dropping a unit and adding an [object] with commands sounds quite hard.
20150809 07:35:12< celticminstrel> Okay, it can wait until tomorrow, then.
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20150809 07:36:57< shadowm> celticminstrel: You can just drop the unit with something like 1000 XP somewhere near an enemy unit, in the prestart event. The [object] tag is recognized in [modifications].
20150809 07:37:22< shadowm> So are [trait] and [advance], which also take [effect]s.
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20150809 08:31:56< Elvish_Hunter> Hi all
20150809 08:32:38< vultraz> hey
20150809 08:34:18< Elvish_Hunter> 20150809 06:18:49< shadowm> Grave accent for console is even worse than : for me.
20150809 08:34:33< Elvish_Hunter> 20150809 06:20:05< shadowm> ` is a dead key in Spanish keyboards, and it's a dead *third*-level key in Latinamerican keyboards.
20150809 08:35:11< Elvish_Hunter> shadowm, you're lucky compared to me. The italian layout doesn't even have the backtick >:-(
20150809 08:36:02< shadowm> How do you people deal with games where ` is a meaningful command then?
20150809 08:36:05< Elvish_Hunter> If I have to type it, on Linux I can do with AltGr + '. But on Windows, I must either use the Alt codes (Alt + 96) or change layout
20150809 08:37:59< Elvish_Hunter> 20150809 07:10:59< shadowm> (Furthermore, if I exceed the monthly 20 GiB quota, I get throttled down to 32 Kb/s (3.9 KiB/s) top.
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20150809 08:40:18< Elvish_Hunter> Brief explanation of the Italian situation: two of our four mobile networks do the same. Another makes you pay 20 Euro cents for 20 MB, and the fourth just blocks your connection, if you go over your quota
20150809 08:40:57< Yaiyan> 20c for 20mb isn't too bad
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20150809 08:49:37< shadowm> Elvish_Hunter: Yeah, all major networks here cut off the connection after exceeding the quota nowadays.
20150809 08:49:51< shadowm> I'm just lucky I'm stuck on a legacy plan.
20150809 08:50:00< shadowm> Imagine that. :\
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20150809 09:06:15< Elvish_Hunter> It looks like nobody documented the ENABLE_NIGHTBLADE extra define at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CampaignWML
20150809 09:06:24< Elvish_Hunter> Oh well, I'm going to do it
20150809 09:09:30 * zookeeper facepalms at it still not having a description
20150809 09:11:40< Elvish_Hunter> Done.
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20150809 09:28:13< Elvish_Hunter> Now I have to go. Bye!
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20150809 09:38:45< shadowm> zookeeper: We could always ask the forums!
20150809 09:38:53 * shadowm hides.
20150809 09:39:10< zookeeper> durr
20150809 09:39:38< zookeeper> well, what we could do is just see if there's any UMC with some kind of description for it, and simply take that and edit it into mainline-worthy form
20150809 09:42:10< zookeeper> or we can hunt down turuk and make him do it
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20150809 09:50:57< zookeeper> doofus-01, and yes, i believe the advancement of all fighters to runesmith thing is intentional. i'm not sure what the exact history of it is though, it's possible it wasn't always intended that way.
20150809 09:51:12< zookeeper> of course it makes those extra runesmiths you get kinda redundant
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20150809 09:53:31< Talim> hi
20150809 09:53:40< zookeeper> but you get so few units anyway, and no advancement options whatsoever otherwise, that i'd say the runesmith advancement should be kept
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20150809 10:17:46< vultraz> zookeeper: you don't happen to be planning to adjust the resolution/perspective of the wood bg, are you?
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20150809 11:17:35< zookeeper> vultraz, not really
20150809 11:18:00< zookeeper> i'd probably have to almost completely redo it
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20150809 12:56:33< aquileia> Elvish_Hunter: I wasn't aware where I had to document it, thanks!
20150809 12:57:19< aquileia> zookeeper: I'm no writer, but here's an attempt at the noghtblade's description:
20150809 12:57:21< aquileia> A blade in the dark, dripping with poison – for many orcish warlords the last thing they see. Due to their high fees, orcish nightblades specialize on 'resolving internal conflicts' and are rarely seen on the battlefield. Practice makes perfect, and few can rival them in that regard: They have long lost count of their victims, which admittedly isn't hard for an orc with only ten fingers.
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20150809 13:05:11< wedge009> The ten fingers thing is actually pretty funny.
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20150809 13:14:31< aquileia> gfgtdf, iceiceice: IIRC 1.10 saves still have a chance of loading on master, whereas replays don't, right? Just asking because I saw MIN_SAVEGAME_VERSION "1.3.10" and wondered whether that's still the case
20150809 13:15:07< iceiceice> anything that has any [replay] tags in it has no chance
20150809 13:15:20< iceiceice> maybe start of scenario does, but i consider it a bit doubtful
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20150809 13:18:10< aquileia> gfgtdf: ^
20150809 13:18:49< gfgtdf> aquileia:  wouldnt bet on 1.3 saved beein loadable
20150809 13:19:09< gfgtdf> aquileia: but you can for example load startof scenario saved from1.10 with 1.12
20150809 13:20:11< gfgtdf> aquileia: there are also some changes related to the spmp patch that still lack an update in the savegame compability code
20150809 13:20:37< aquileia> If start of scenario saves load, then I guess we shouldn't disallow all 1.10 saves
20150809 13:20:54< aquileia> ok
20150809 13:20:58< gfgtdf> aquileia: specially this code https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/savegame.cpp#L834
20150809 13:21:11< gfgtdf> should be default era instead of blank era
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20150809 13:28:33< aquileia> loonycyborg: Just saw http://gna.org/bugs/?21891
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20150809 13:32:02< aquileia> Do you think localizing the displayed name of 'My Games' (in paths, 'My Games' would still work) would fix that bug? His main problem seems to be the 'eyesore' of the unlocalized folder
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20150809 13:41:35< aquileia> Hmm... either Bethesda didn't bother to provide a desktop.ini for 'My Games', or I installed Skyrim with the English installer...
20150809 13:43:34< aquileia> Anyone with non-English Windows and Skyrim - is the 'My Games' dir under 'Users\...\Documents' localized for you?
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20150809 13:44:03< loonycyborg> aquileia: there is another proper way of doing that, but I don't remember details
20150809 13:44:10< loonycyborg> like
20150809 13:44:21< loonycyborg> you can get localized name with winapi
20150809 13:44:23< ancestral> aquileia: I could check for you in a little bit
20150809 13:44:43< ancestral> oh wait
20150809 13:44:48< ancestral> I have English, never mind
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20150809 13:47:31< aquileia> loonycyborg, shadowm: Do we want to appear in the game explorer? Apparently, all we need is a section in wesnoth.rc: "Once a GDF has been authored and localized, it must be encapsulated within a resource section of a binary file"
20150809 13:48:09< loonycyborg> I don't know much about game explorer
20150809 13:48:45< aquileia> Neither do I, honestly, that's why I ask
20150809 13:51:37< loonycyborg> but anyway about save game locations didn't shadowm plan to sort it out?
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20150809 13:53:30< aquileia> Well, if we ever want to tackle that bug report, now is the time to decide: localize 'My Games' or use 'Saved Games'
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20150809 14:01:59< aquileia> Correction: As to Game Explorer, we'd probably also need to add a plugin dll to NSIS (GameUXInstallHelper.dll), but that should be no issue
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20150809 15:20:37< gfgtdf> aquileia: I actually think translated foldernames make it more complicated than it is, specially if we for example want to explin user where to find the saves.
20150809 15:21:20< gfgtdf> aquileia: specially i think it a bad idea to translate the My Games folder, there are other games using it and we would confuse user of those games that also have wesnoth installed.
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20150809 15:26:28< aquileia> Well, that would already apply to 'Documents', which Microsoft translates. In instructions where to find the userdata dir, we can just say to paste the path into the address bar of Windows Explorer. As to other Games (e.g. Bethesda uses 'My Games'), that's a valid point, but still, we only change the displayed name, not the actual path
20150809 15:27:48< aquileia> I don't say we have to localize it, but if we don't we may as well close that bug report
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20150809 15:29:26< aquileia> Our options are: a) Won't fix   b) localize My Games   c) move to Saved Games
20150809 15:30:23< gfgtdf> aquileia: but everone knows that documents of localized, when we i search my Are of empires 3 savegames i expect then ina  folder that is displayed as 'My games' and not in 'Meine Spiele'
20150809 15:32:47< aquileia> As I said, closing the bug as won't fix is an option, although I'd rather localize it.
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20150809 16:19:16< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i think apply_to=advances_to is a bad idea. the imprtant property of [object] and similar is that the effects stay even if the unit advances to a different type, so after a unit with apply_to=advance_to advanced to that type, it will still be able to advance ot that same type again.
20150809 16:19:55< celticminstrel> Hmm.
20150809 16:20:27< celticminstrel> You have a point.
20150809 16:20:51< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: what is thexact reason why you want to to it with object effects and not with direct modification (store/unstore)?
20150809 16:21:09< celticminstrel> I was having issues with it in 1.12, I think.
20150809 16:21:19 * vultraz thinks that [object] is often used where people want modifications
20150809 16:22:03< celticminstrel> I was using [modify_unit].
20150809 16:22:12< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: and that didnt work ?
20150809 16:22:19< celticminstrel> It did work, but...
20150809 16:22:30< celticminstrel> Only until the end of the scenario.
20150809 16:23:03< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: hmm maybe there was soem code in vectors or start events that removed the advance_to
20150809 16:23:54< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: another idea woudl be to add some duration=type so tat the effect vanishes when the type changes.
20150809 16:24:25< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: lwhich coudl then be used together with apply_to=advance_to
20150809 16:24:28< gfgtdf> which*
20150809 16:33:26< celticminstrel> Is there some particular reason for [modify_unit] changes to be reset on recall, or would that be considered a bug?
20150809 16:34:13< celticminstrel> At one point they were even reset on load, I think...
20150809 16:35:54 * vultraz remembers he still hasn't updated the editor edit side dialog :|
20150809 16:37:55< vultraz> ah, right, i couldn't figure out how to do it without duplicating most of the code :/
20150809 16:39:26< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: i think thats a bug
20150809 16:39:56< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: but i think its alikeley that there is sone other wml codes in taht scenario that reset those changes
20150809 16:40:53< celticminstrel> It didn't happen only in one specific scenario.
20150809 16:41:26< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: a lot of campaignss have events that are present in every sceanrio of  that campaign
20150809 16:41:43< celticminstrel> As does this one.
20150809 16:41:53< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: is that a specific known campaign ?
20150809 16:42:32< celticminstrel> It's mine.
20150809 16:43:52< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: hmm
20150809 16:44:07< zookeeper> well as usual, the likeliest explanation is that you're doing something wrong
20150809 16:44:36< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: maybe you can try to make a very sime scenario without other events and check that [modify_unit] changes are removed when advancing to the next scenario
20150809 16:44:41< zookeeper> so a minimal test case would be most helpful
20150809 16:44:52< celticminstrel> Perhaps I should make a short test scenario to see if...  ... ... ...
20150809 16:47:07< zookeeper> yeah :P
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20150809 17:07:46< celticminstrel> It works. :(
20150809 17:09:17< celticminstrel> ...also, for some reason it deleted all my auto-saves.
20150809 17:09:30< celticminstrel> That's not very nice.
20150809 17:11:16< iceiceice> wesnoth, you monster!
20150809 17:11:49< celticminstrel> To clarify, it seems like it deleted all start-of-turn auto-saves from all scenarios. I don't even have "delete auto-saves on scenario victory" set.
20150809 17:13:04< celticminstrel> The saved games format seems very wasteful. It stores all the translatable strings that are never going to change.
20150809 17:13:31< celticminstrel> And a whole lot of other stuff that will rarely change.
20150809 17:13:50< iceiceice> yeah i mean its tricky
20150809 17:14:03< iceiceice> on the one hand people want their saes to work forever and across versions
20150809 17:14:12< iceiceice> and when they send replay to a french guy he wants to see french
20150809 17:14:34< iceiceice> on the other hand... probably none of that will work anyways for other reasons :p
20150809 17:14:52< celticminstrel> You can't just store the stuff that differs from the unit type and merge on load? Something like that.
20150809 17:15:11< iceiceice> yeah that would be way better
20150809 17:15:39< iceiceice> idk why we dont do that
20150809 17:15:50< iceiceice> probably dave was lazy at the beginning and no one fixed it
20150809 17:15:56< celticminstrel> I see.
20150809 17:16:14< iceiceice> its a reasonable question why we store all that stuff in the class unit in the first place,
20150809 17:16:21< iceiceice> really it should be falling back to unit type most of the time
20150809 17:17:02< iceiceice> if the whole engine were lua, then i suppose we could just declare units to have their unit type table as their metatable :p
20150809 17:17:34< celticminstrel> Yeah, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. :P
20150809 17:17:44< celticminstrel> A prototype-based thing.
20150809 17:17:56< celticminstrel> The unit type is the prototype for a given unit.
20150809 17:18:35< vultraz> Not to mention there's a difference between unit attributes and unit proxy tables...
20150809 17:18:42 * vultraz glares at .hidden
20150809 17:19:05< celticminstrel> I dunno how much changing it now would really be worth it though... at least, not in terms of reducing savefile size.
20150809 17:19:18< celticminstrel> Might be worthwhile in other ways.
20150809 17:19:22< iceiceice> yeah i mean thats not why i would do it
20150809 17:19:41< iceiceice> it woudl be because, if class unit is small the whole engine might go faster
20150809 17:19:58< iceiceice> but at the same time alot of the engine uses unit_ptr now instead of copying units around
20150809 17:20:14< iceiceice> idk
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20150809 17:25:27< celticminstrel> Would it simplify unit advancement?
20150809 17:27:35< celticminstrel> I can think of ways in which it might complicate unit advancement, but it might complicate it less than it simplifies it...
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20150809 18:59:17< mattsc> < celticminstrel> Emphasis on "distributable"!
20150809 18:59:47< celticminstrel> Hm?
20150809 18:59:53< mattsc> Yes, understood.  AFAICT, there is no difference in the distributableness of this and the previous build.
20150809 19:00:25< mattsc> Meaning, as far as I am concerned, this can be merged, but we should still wait for ancestral just to make sure.
20150809 19:00:37< celticminstrel> Good to know.
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20150809 19:02:03< vultraz> gfgtdf: why... does unit_type::build have a case for WATER_ANIMATIONS? O_o
20150809 19:02:16-!- wedge009 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150809 19:03:45< vultraz> er, without_animations
20150809 19:03:46< vultraz> not water
20150809 19:04:15< vultraz> I'm trying to figure out what build_help_index does
20150809 19:05:10< vultraz> is that the encountered unit list or something?
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20150809 19:13:40< gfgtdf> vultraz: why shoudl i know ?
20150809 19:14:14< vultraz> gfgtdf: oh, was iceiceice who was working on the unit stuff? sorry
20150809 19:14:29< vultraz> I thought you had been doing something with that recently
20150809 19:14:31< vultraz> >_>
20150809 19:14:33< gfgtdf> vultraz: actually i cannot find WATER_ANIMATIONS in unt_types.cpp
20150809 19:14:44< vultraz> [06:03:43]	vultraz	er, without_animations
20150809 19:14:45< vultraz> [06:03:44]	vultraz	not water
20150809 19:14:57< vultraz> misread it, sorry
20150809 19:15:28< iceiceice> vultraz, i think that, when you load the help from the title screen,
20150809 19:15:33< iceiceice> it doesn't load all the animations
20150809 19:15:37< iceiceice> just hte baseframes of the units
20150809 19:16:02< iceiceice> that enum is used to keep track of how much of the unit has actually been built iirc
20150809 19:17:06< vultraz> oh, hm, I think you're right
20150809 19:17:08< vultraz> unit_types.build_unit_type(type_, unit_type::WITHOUT_ANIMATIONS);
20150809 19:17:52< vultraz> ... except WITHOUT_ANIMATIONS falls through to... FULL?
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20150809 19:19:28< vultraz> But if we load the unit type in help, why do we have build_help_index?
20150809 19:19:35 * vultraz is confused here ._
20150809 19:20:31< vultraz> ok, so I'm guessing at one point, an explicit build w/o animations was required
20150809 19:23:24< shadowm> aquileia: "Saved Games" doesn't seem to cover the full extent of the data we store in the user config and user data dirs.
20150809 19:23:51< gfgtdf> vultraz: i think heklp index might only to generate the entry in teh list and the without_anumations is used when you actualy click on teh unit in the list
20150809 19:23:51< pydsigner> Hmmm
20150809 19:24:13< gfgtdf> vultraz: just a guess thought didnt look at code
20150809 19:24:21-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150809 19:26:45< pydsigner> gfgtdf, celticminstrel: What if having an [object] with apply_to=advance_to had two keys: advances_from=Old Type & advances_to=New Type, Other New Type?
20150809 19:27:15< vultraz> gfgtdf: hm sounds plausible 
20150809 19:27:27< gfgtdf> pydsigner: what should advances_from= do then ?
20150809 19:28:25< pydsigner> gfgtdf: It filters which unit types will advance to the advances_to types
20150809 19:28:48< pydsigner> Thus the applicability of the object is retained
20150809 19:29:27< celticminstrel> pydsigner: I did consider that as well.
20150809 19:29:30< pydsigner> And could be manipulated for some nice effects when combined with [transform_unit] elsewhere
20150809 19:29:40< pydsigner> It's not perfect but a thought
20150809 19:29:57< celticminstrel> Is [transform_unit] identical to what happens when advancing?
20150809 19:30:15< pydsigner> I don't think so
20150809 19:30:32< pydsigner> But my point is, imagine if you have an object applied to a unit in an event
20150809 19:31:03< pydsigner> Say, a Peasant
20150809 19:31:05< gfgtdf> pydsigner: hm i think this can maybe already done wit the normal filter in [effect] ?
20150809 19:31:15< pydsigner> gfgtdf: Probably
20150809 19:31:39< pydsigner> My point is that this solves the issue of advancing to the same thing over and over again
20150809 19:32:21< pydsigner> But the advancement effect could remain latent until a unit was transformed into a type that was filtered as being possible to advance to the other thing
20150809 19:35:08< pydsigner> I have a campaign myself where I would like to be able to give AMLAs to normal units
20150809 19:35:20< pydsigner> That haven't necessarily reached their AMLA point.
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20150809 20:00:17< celticminstrel> AMLAs are a bit different though.
20150809 20:00:35< pydsigner> Yes
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20150809 20:31:34< celticminstrel> Oh, by the way, does anyone else get a segfault when moving a unit in the test scenario?
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20150809 20:48:30< pydsigner> Is there any sort of lua console that can be enabled somehow or is :lua the best option right now?
20150809 20:49:03< celticminstrel> Is there a way to find out what events are currently registered?
20150809 20:50:15< pydsigner> I don't think so
20150809 20:50:34< pydsigner> Someone else was looking for such functionality but couldn't find it
20150809 20:50:37< celticminstrel> Blah.
20150809 20:51:42< shadowm> pydsigner: :inspect -> Lua Console (1.13.0+ only).
20150809 20:51:49< pydsigner> Ok
20150809 20:51:54-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150809 20:52:01 * pydsigner needs to build 1.13
20150809 20:52:14< jxanthony> Is there some preferential leaning towards scons or cmake?
20150809 20:52:30< jxanthony> As in one over the other
20150809 20:52:44< celticminstrel> The Travis appears to use scons.
20150809 20:52:52< celticminstrel> I dunno if that means anything much.
20150809 20:53:07< shadowm> The release manager and packagers use CMake, devs tend to use SCons.
20150809 20:53:34< jxanthony> Is there much duplication of effort in providing both options?
20150809 20:54:07< shadowm> Most of the time, not really.
20150809 20:55:25< celticminstrel> The only time there's duplication of effort is when adding a new source file, right?
20150809 20:55:46< shadowm> If you call adding a single line in two different files "effort", yes.
20150809 20:56:38< celticminstrel> Five if you want to cover projectfiles as well. Though I don't think you can update the XCode project without using XCode, you can do so for the other project files.
20150809 20:56:54< shadowm> Most people don't bother with the project files.
20150809 20:57:45< jxanthony> I wasn't really thinking of it in terms of effort to write a line here or there. I was thinking more like headaches from drifting build files
20150809 20:57:55-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-161-229-81.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150809 20:58:05< jxanthony> You know, when people who build using one system aren't testing their builds with the other
20150809 20:58:39< shadowm> There is some functionality drift between CMake and SCons but for the most part it doesn't affect anything since it mostly only happens when someone changes your build dependencies.
20150809 20:58:50< shadowm> *our
20150809 21:04:36< celticminstrel> Okay yeah, it only affects my leader.
20150809 21:04:51< celticminstrel> Wrong channel.
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20150809 21:22:27< macslayer> Good afternoon, all.
20150809 21:22:49< macslayer> I've read the forum post about Wesnoth's ship sinking, and I wanted to join this channel to see if there's anything that I can do to help.
20150809 21:23:16< macslayer> I'm a somewhat experienced C++ programmer, although do not have much experience in game development.
20150809 21:24:22< pydsigner> Well, there are definitely some things you can do
20150809 21:24:44< pydsigner> http://bugs.wesnoth.org
20150809 21:25:00< pydsigner> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding
20150809 21:25:06< pydsigner> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/NotSoEasyCoding
20150809 21:25:53< macslayer> Oh, goodness, that's a lot of bugs.
20150809 21:26:19< macslayer> I'd assume that it's more of a pressing matter to fix the bugs, then focus on new features, correct?
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20150809 21:28:30< pydsigner> Well, not all are pressing
20150809 21:28:47< pydsigner> And the bug tracker does list things that are not bugs (i.e. feature requests)
20150809 21:29:27< macslayer> Right, okay. Thanks!
20150809 21:29:42< pydsigner> However, I do find ~150 bugs of moderate or higher severity/priority
20150809 21:29:44< pydsigner> https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?go_report=Apply&group=wesnoth&func=browse&set=custom&msort=0&report_id=101&advsrch=1&status_id%5B%5D=1&resolution_id%5B%5D=100&resolution_id%5B%5D=6&resolution_id%5B%5D=10&resolution_id%5B%5D=9&resolution_id%5B%5D=4&resolution_id%5B%5D=11&resolution_id%5B%5D=8&resolution_id%5B%5D=101&submitted_by%5B%5D=0&assigned_to%5B%5D=100&category_id%5B%5D=101&bug_group_id%5B%5D=0&severity%5B%5D=100&severity%5B%5D=5&sev
20150809 21:29:44< pydsigner> erity%5B%5D=7&severity%5B%5D=8&severity%5B%5D=9&priority%5B%5D=0&summary=&details=&sumORdet=0&history_search=0&history_field=0&history_event=modified&history_date_dayfd=9&history_date_monthfd=8&history_date_yearfd=2015&chunksz=150&spamscore=5&boxoptionwanted=1#options
20150809 21:29:52< pydsigner> Augh
20150809 21:29:57< pydsigner> Augh augh
20150809 21:30:26< pydsigner> https://goo.gl/IGEhzW
20150809 21:31:20< macslayer> Okay, thanks.
20150809 21:31:31< macslayer> I'll pick some low-hanging fruit and try knocking out a couple of bugs.
20150809 21:31:52< macslayer> So how is the general effort to save Wesnoth going, though? Is it reviving?
20150809 21:32:13< pydsigner> I'd say so, we've had a fairly good response to the call for help.
20150809 21:32:25< macslayer> That's great!
20150809 21:32:46< pydsigner> Of course there were a lot of people who were just curious and didn't contribute, but we still have C++ programmers like you showing up :)_
20150809 21:32:49< pydsigner> Thanks!
20150809 21:33:00< macslayer> I love playing Wesnoth; its been my favorite open-source game since around 10 years ago.
20150809 21:33:04< macslayer> No problem!
20150809 21:33:16< macslayer> I'll try my best to help with something.
20150809 21:36:28-!- shadowm is now known as shadow_em
20150809 21:36:51< pydsigner> I will point out that if you look at the Easy/NotSoEasy pages, a lot of stuff has been marked off/picked up quite recently
20150809 21:37:12< pydsigner> So that's a good indicator of progress so far.
20150809 21:37:36< pydsigner> Also the well-produced entries have correlating FRs on the bugtracker.
20150809 21:38:18< macslayer> That's excellent!
20150809 21:38:38< macslayer> I'm hoping that the effort continues, though, and results in a refreshed version of the game.
20150809 21:38:49< macslayer> I'm cloning the repo right now.
20150809 21:39:41< pydsigner> That'll take a bit ^_^
20150809 21:39:55< macslayer> haha yeah... I'm at 2GB right now.
20150809 21:40:03< pydsigner> Anyways, one of the most exciting WIPs to me is Aginor's SDL2 port
20150809 21:40:16< shadow_em> Port?
20150809 21:40:21-!- shadow_em is now known as shadowm
20150809 21:40:49< pydsigner> Conversion/port/whatever
20150809 21:40:54< shadowm> We can build Wesnoth with SDL 2 again, sure, but I wouldn't call it a port yet.
20150809 21:41:18< pydsigner> NSEC refers to it as a port
20150809 21:41:47< shadowm> Yeah, because the tasks proposed are a bit more involved.
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20150809 21:44:27< pydsigner> Ok
20150809 21:45:08< pydsigner> shadowm: BTW, it looks the PR build checks are failing due to the refs being constructed inaccurately
20150809 21:45:36< pydsigner> "git fetch origin +refs/pull/447/merge"
20150809 21:46:59< shadowm> I don't know what that means or why it happens.
20150809 21:51:55< pydsigner> It looks like it should be...
20150809 21:52:27< pydsigner> git fetch origin pull/447/head:master
20150809 21:53:16< celticminstrel> Cloning the repo takes forever.
20150809 21:53:29< chaverma> heh
20150809 21:53:35< ancestral> You can clone on github without having to download
20150809 21:53:42< celticminstrel> Good thing you can only have to do it once.
20150809 21:53:48< ancestral> Takes mere seconds
20150809 21:53:54< celticminstrel> Uh, cloning on github doesn't really help?
20150809 21:54:11< chaverma> i cloned master only and that saved me about 100k objects
20150809 21:54:19< vultraz> I think he means fork
20150809 21:54:30< ancestral> Fork
20150809 21:54:55< vultraz> You can fork in seconds
20150809 21:55:13< shadowm> pydsigner: Yeah, but this is not under my control.
20150809 21:55:17< pydsigner> shadowm: Hmm, seems like an issue with Travis
20150809 21:56:49< pydsigner> But I'm really not sure
20150809 21:56:55< pydsigner> Will check some other repos
20150809 21:57:10< shadowm> Of course it has to be Travis, because we don't get to tell Travis how to clone the repository.
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20150809 21:58:14< shadowm> We only have control over the build and tests.
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20150809 22:02:32< aquileia> shadowm: Any opinion on       - adding a game explorer entry          - localizing the displayed name of 'My Games'      ?
20150809 22:04:51< shadowm> I think people already said we shouldn't mess with directories that may have been created by other applications by adding desktop.ini files to give them localized names.
20150809 22:05:03< shadowm> I don't know what the game explorer is.
20150809 22:09:56< aquileia> shadowm: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8vnha00jiaujwry/Game-Explorer.png?dl=0
20150809 22:10:31< aquileia> Basically just an explorer window with fancy information on any games registered with it
20150809 22:13:09< vultraz> I remember that
20150809 22:13:19< vultraz> Didn't it die after windows 7?
20150809 22:13:25< aquileia> Considering it doesn't list XCOM, there seem to be game producers that don't care about it...
20150809 22:13:37< aquileia> vultraz: I'm on 8.1, so no
20150809 22:15:08< vultraz> huh
20150809 22:15:18< vultraz> wonder if it's on 10
20150809 22:15:53 * vultraz doubts it
20150809 22:16:10< aquileia> shouldn't YOU of all people know?
20150809 22:16:41< pydsigner> "git fetch origin +refs/pull/131/merge:"
20150809 22:16:50< vultraz> I'm not sure where to look
20150809 22:16:51< pydsigner> Worked two weeks ago
20150809 22:18:51< aquileia> vultraz: Does you app list (or start menu) have a 'Games' (localized) entry? Right click on any item in it and open save location, it'll lead you to the game explorer
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20150809 22:20:30< vultraz> ah, yes
20150809 22:20:35< vultraz> only has skyrim in it though
20150809 22:21:07< vultraz> the other game in the games folder just takes me to a shortcut buried in ProgramData
20150809 22:21:56< aquileia> right click on an empty space and 'update' ?
20150809 22:23:08< vultraz> nothing happens
20150809 22:23:14< vultraz> weird, since I have a bunch of games installed 
20150809 22:23:17< vultraz> also from steam
20150809 22:23:25< vultraz> I guess other publishers just don't use it
20150809 22:24:31< aquileia> EA, Microsoft and Bethesda use it, Firaxis doesn't, no idea about the others
20150809 22:25:09< aquileia> Oh, and CD Project Red (the Studio behind GOG) uses it as well
20150809 22:25:27< vultraz> Seems 2k, ReLogic, Valve, and SquareEnix at least don't
20150809 22:25:59< vultraz> Isn't CD:PR the guys behind the witcher?
20150809 22:26:03< aquileia> Yes
20150809 22:26:04< ancestral> Yes
20150809 22:26:43< shadowm> aquileia: I don't feel strongly about it because 1) I don't use Windows (except for testing); 2) I don't play games.
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20150809 22:28:19< aquileia> Well, if there's no demand, I can save me the DirectX SDK download (it includes the tool to generate the GDF node for wesnoth.rc) and the time to get it working
20150809 22:29:06< vultraz> Considering it's become hard to even find, I'd say no, there is n o demand 
20150809 22:29:32< shadowm> If it's not readily accessible anymore it probably means they will drop it in the next major update.
20150809 22:54:48< mattsc> ancestral: hi - do you have a few minutes?
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20150809 23:07:27< ancestral> mattsc: Sorry about that, what’s up?
20150809 23:08:28< mattsc> ancestral: no worries.  Can homebrew be used to modify code and build that modified version, or only for tagged builds or current HEAD?
20150809 23:08:53< mattsc> *tagged versions, or whatever ther right word is
20150809 23:13:33< ancestral> mattsc: The formula is downloading source code from sourceforge
20150809 23:13:46< ancestral> https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-games/blob/master/wesnoth.rb
20150809 23:14:32< mattsc> ancestral: so that means no?
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20150809 23:16:20< celticminstrel> Does it mean no?
20150809 23:17:47< Aginor> mattsc: I think it's possible, but it's been a long time since I poked homebrew
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20150809 23:26:33< mattsc> I assume that it is possible somehow.  Since ancestral has set this up recently, I’d like to know how difficult that might be.
20150809 23:49:24< Aginor> ah, I just re-read your question
20150809 23:49:58< Aginor> you can supply patch-files which are applied as a pre-build step, but the project overall isn't too keen on that approach
20150809 23:50:28< Aginor> if possible, they want to keep the program pure, without additional meddling
20150809 23:55:43< mattsc> Aginor: “the project” being homebrew?
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20150809 23:57:59< Aginor> yeah
20150809 23:58:09< Aginor> sorry for ambiguity
20150809 23:58:43 * Aginor is home sick and isn't at his best
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--- Log closed Mon Aug 10 00:00:21 2015