--- Log opened Mon Aug 10 00:00:21 2015
20150810 00:04:17-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-161-229-81.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150810 00:04:34< ancestral> mattsc: I think you can build from a modified version by using the ccacheflag
20150810 00:04:34< ancestral> *ccache flag
20150810 00:05:27-!- framling [~user@c-50-186-43-50.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20150810 00:07:35< ancestral> mattsc: In other words, if you re-run the homebrew install with --ccache that should work
20150810 00:16:38< mattsc> Hi, All: sorry, I am not really here any more, just stopping by occasionally...
20150810 00:17:39< mattsc> The aim of all the questions is: what is the easiest way to enable somebody on 10.6 and 10.7 to build not just releases, but modify source code and build that
20150810 00:18:10< mattsc> I need to run off again right now though, sorry …
20150810 00:18:22 * Aginor ponders
20150810 00:18:40< Aginor> is anyone actively doing development on 10.6?
20150810 00:21:06< aquileia> I think the problem is that mattsc's builds of 1.13 no longer work on 10.6 and he searches a way not to drop these users
20150810 00:25:04< Aginor> ah
20150810 00:25:40< aquileia> At least that's what I gather from the discussion he had with ancestral and celticministrel
20150810 00:26:12< Aginor> but if he wants to modify source code, doesn't that imply development as well?
20150810 00:26:26< ancestral> Look here’s what’s up
20150810 00:26:59< celticminstrel> I'm on 10.7, Aginor.
20150810 00:27:18< ancestral> When you build with homebrew
20150810 00:27:29< celticminstrel> The main issue for me was the pango CoreText module.
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20150810 00:27:42< celticminstrel> Why are the pango modules checked into the repo at all?
20150810 00:28:13< ancestral> That’s a good question, I asked that too
20150810 00:28:25< ancestral> Honestly, it was because in 1.12 there was no issue
20150810 00:29:25< celticminstrel> I actually fixed it with install_name_tool.
20150810 00:29:39< celticminstrel> I seem to recall that copying the MacPorts version over didn't work.
20150810 00:29:55< ancestral> When you build with homebrew, it’s downloading source code from sourceforge
20150810 00:30:07< ancestral> If you use --cache it doesn’t download anything that’s already downlaoded
20150810 00:30:09< celticminstrel> Anyway, barring that one erroneous warning, I think my only issue was the libraries.
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20150810 00:30:52< ancestral> So if you modify a file
20150810 00:30:57< ancestral> You can rebuild
20150810 00:31:24< ancestral> mattsc has said he’s had some successbuilding pango through MacPorts
20150810 00:31:43< ancestral> If that does work for [nearly] everyone, then it’s a drag and drop scenario
20150810 00:32:14< Aginor> is there a preffered way to do it? macports over brew or the other way around?
20150810 00:32:37< aquileia> BTW, https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/projectfiles/Xcode/readme.md seems a little out of date - it says the XCode project requires OS X 10.5+ but later on suggests 10.4...
20150810 00:32:42< celticminstrel> It's not really a drag and drop scenario. There are twenty or so libraries and a zillion headers that need to be copied into the project folder (lib/ and Headers/ subdirectories), plus the issue with the pango modules.
20150810 00:33:05< celticminstrel> And those libraries and headers aren't all necessarily in the same place.
20150810 00:33:22< ancestral> Aginor: Not necessarily, though through homebrew is pretty easy
20150810 00:33:46< celticminstrel> I think the thing about homebrew is that it has an option that directly builds HEAD for you.
20150810 00:33:52< celticminstrel> But is that really useful for developers?
20150810 00:33:54< ancestral> http://r.wesnoth.org/p577235
20150810 00:34:13< ancestral> Yes, HEAD would be more for developers
20150810 00:34:14< ancestral> One second
20150810 00:34:28< Aginor> ancestral: yes, but I'm wondering i homebrew is causing issues here... homebrew prefers to use the system libraries, macports will install its own version of libraries alongside the system ones
20150810 00:34:32< celticminstrel> Developers don't want to build HEAD. They want to build their local copy.
20150810 00:34:40< Aginor> this could cause the isseus you're describing
20150810 00:34:43< ancestral> https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-games/blob/master/wesnoth.rb
20150810 00:34:50< celticminstrel> (Which also has a  HEAD, but that's beside the point.)
20150810 00:36:57< celticminstrel> The main out-of-date thing I can see in that readme is the mention of PPC, which I'm told is no longer being supported.
20150810 00:36:58< ancestral> “with-ccache”
20150810 00:37:01< ancestral> I had it wrong
20150810 00:37:10< ancestral> I think you’d leave off --HEAD
20150810 00:37:28< ancestral> Eek still wrong
20150810 00:37:36< ancestral> args << "ccache=true”
20150810 00:38:02< ancestral> Hmm
20150810 00:39:22< celticminstrel> I also dislike the suggestion to download the required libraries from a bundle on sourceforge.
20150810 00:39:45< celticminstrel> There must be a list of dependencies somewhere, right?
20150810 00:39:49< ancestral> celticminstrel: To be fair, the second compile package is optional
20150810 00:39:56< ancestral> You don’t have to download it at all
20150810 00:39:58< celticminstrel> The what?
20150810 00:40:02< celticminstrel> I only remember one.
20150810 00:40:06< ancestral> That’s where the pango libs are
20150810 00:40:10< ancestral> Mac Compile Stuff
20150810 00:40:19< celticminstrel> That's what I downloaded.
20150810 00:40:23< ancestral> That’s optional. You can build everything without it, with Homebrew, with MacPorts, or anywhere else
20150810 00:40:54< celticminstrel> Yes, of course, but to do that I would need to build the lib/ and Headers/ directories manually, and I had no idea what to put there.
20150810 00:42:39< Aginor> I've started a brew build here, but I'm on 10.10
20150810 00:42:53< Aginor> I'm hoping some of the output may shed light on these questions though
20150810 00:43:07< Aginor> ==> Installing dependencies for homebrew/games/wesnoth: fribidi, boost, libpng, freetype, fontconfig, pixman, gettext, libffi, glib, cairo, icu4c, gobject-introspection, harfbuzz, pango, sdl, jpeg, libtiff, webp, sdl_image, libogg, libvorbis, sdl_mixer, sdl_net, sdl_ttf
20150810 00:44:33< celticminstrel> I suppose that's sort of helpful, but there's also the point that some of them need to be frameworks (SDL mainly).
20150810 00:44:53< celticminstrel> And only a subset of Boost is required.
20150810 00:45:26< aquileia> as well as only a subset of the image format libs
20150810 00:46:27< Aginor> unless you bundle all of that into the repo it won't matter though
20150810 00:46:46< ancestral> celticminstrel: You can do everything with Homebrew
20150810 00:46:48< Aginor> they need to be there in full in order to work for other projects
20150810 00:47:00< ancestral> Homebrew does everything for you
20150810 00:47:22< ancestral> It’s just currently it doesn’t build the libraries for all versions of OS X
20150810 00:59:02< mattsc> ancestral: (just stopping by for a minute again) the problem with 10.6 and 10.7 is not just pango, other libraries have changed and need to be build and replaced as well
20150810 00:59:23< mattsc> that can be done with Macports and a script that puts things into their correct places
20150810 00:59:33< mattsc> but somebody would have to write that and test it
20150810 00:59:50< mattsc> I was just wondering if it is easier (or already 95% done) with homebrew
20150810 00:59:59< Aginor> mattsc: what's the end artifact? An Os X app bundle?
20150810 01:00:20< mattsc> Aginor: yes
20150810 01:00:35< mattsc> I I were to do it with Macports, that would be the result
20150810 01:01:11< mattsc> And just to clarify again, I am not talking about releases, but about making it as easy as possible for potential new developers to get started.
20150810 01:01:28< mattsc> [and with that, I am off again for 30-60 min; sorry]
20150810 01:01:57< aquileia> loonycyborg: I am aware that end users don't need to accept the GPL, but should we really implement https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?21769 ? After all, it's the only limitation on liability we have
20150810 01:03:24< ancestral> So to clear up, basically the two ways to build on OS X
20150810 01:03:46< ancestral> 1. Build with Xcode, download the Compile Stuff libs or build your own
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20150810 01:04:02< Aginor> mattsc: if the goal is to help new developers get started on these platforms I think there's an issue with using either macports or homebrew. They're both geared towards releases
20150810 01:04:12< ancestral> or 2. Homebrew/MacPorts and build via command line, invoke via command line
20150810 01:05:02< ancestral> Aginor: I think one could rework the build script
20150810 01:05:38< ancestral> https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-games/blob/master/wesnoth.rb
20150810 01:05:47< celticminstrel> ancestral: I already use MacPorts, switching to Homebrew seems silly.
20150810 01:05:47< mattsc> Aginor: I built all the libraries for the Xcode builds using Macports  (I _really_ need to be off now though)
20150810 01:05:53< ancestral> iceiceice knows quite a bit with thi
20150810 01:05:55< ancestral> *this
20150810 01:06:03< ancestral> celticminstrel: That’s fine
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20150810 01:06:19< mattsc> Sorry, I mean for building with Xcode  :P
20150810 01:06:29< Aginor> ancestral: yes, but it will still not integrate very cleanly into Xcode, which is the de factor development platofmr on os x
20150810 01:06:38< celticminstrel> Also ancestral: Are you saying that Homebrew will build your local checked-out repo?
20150810 01:07:04< ancestral> It should if you rework the script
20150810 01:07:08< ancestral> This isn’t magic
20150810 01:07:15< ancestral> (Just feels like it)
20150810 01:07:25< ancestral> I mean really you don’t need any scripts
20150810 01:07:29< ancestral> You just need source code
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20150810 01:07:47< celticminstrel> aquileia: I'm not loonycyborg, but I would say yes.
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20150810 01:08:42< Aginor> ancestral: I agree with that :) - I still however feel that the goal is unclear in terms of what the proposed developmet flow is to be
20150810 01:09:03< ancestral> Okay let’s back up
20150810 01:09:25< ancestral> If you’re truly developing, here’s what I would suggest
20150810 01:09:32< ancestral> Clone the repo from Github
20150810 01:09:45< ancestral> Build through command line or through Xcode
20150810 01:10:13< celticminstrel> aquileia: You can change NSIS to simply say Continue instead of Accept on the license page, something like that.
20150810 01:10:14< ancestral> If you’re not developing, or you just want to test master, homebrew is very easy and works great
20150810 01:10:18< Aginor> that sounds reasonable
20150810 01:10:40< celticminstrel> Yeah, that's what I see the homebrew version as. A way for non-developers to try out the latest.
20150810 01:11:43< aquileia> celticminstrel: pure NSIS has 'LicenseForceSelection' for that, the MUI 2 (modern user interface) should be able to allow both choices via MUI_LICENSEPAGE_RADIOBUTTONS
20150810 01:12:43< aquileia> so there should be a way to implement it
20150810 01:13:01< Aginor> ancestral: that all sounds reasonable, but my understanding is that it'sin conflict with what mattsc wants. He seems to want new developers to use homebrew/macports
20150810 01:13:18< celticminstrel> I did this in another project: !define MUI_LICENSEPAGE_TEXT_BOTTOM "Press the Install button to Continue"  \n  !define MUI_LICENSEPAGE_BUTTON "&Install"
20150810 01:14:59< aquileia> Well, that probably won't load translations - I'd rather use LangStrings implemented by MUI
20150810 01:15:42 * celticminstrel shrugs.
20150810 01:15:52< celticminstrel> I didn't have to worry about translations there.
20150810 01:16:29< aquileia> Well, translations are the reason that bug was postponed for over a year
20150810 01:16:35< celticminstrel> Ah.
20150810 01:18:13< aquileia> But there should be ways to rely on MUI provided strings - either via the radiobuttons (one is for acept, one for decline) or by searching the variable name of the LangString we need and using it directly
20150810 01:18:37< ancestral> Aginor: Well
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20150810 01:18:40< celticminstrel> Aginor, ancestral: I think it's reasonable to recommend the use of MacPorts or Homebrew for installing the libraries.
20150810 01:18:42< ancestral> Let us know what you like best
20150810 01:19:00< ancestral> If you can find a better dev flow, we’re open to it
20150810 01:19:09< celticminstrel> And it would be convenient if there were a shell-script or similar that copies everything needed into lib/ and Headers/ for new devs.
20150810 01:19:25< celticminstrel> Including the Pango modules.
20150810 01:19:28< ancestral> Personally, generally, I like going straight through github when working with source code
20150810 01:19:36< ancestral> s/github/git
20150810 01:19:45< ancestral> celticminstrel: that’s doable
20150810 01:20:41< Aginor> I'm strongly in favour of ancestral's approach of github, I think anything else is simply setting any prospective developers/testers up for having to go through it again anyway
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20150810 01:21:23< Aginor> I think it may be reasonable to add a wesnoth-dependencies pacakge to macports or homebrew for that scenario, but I don't think the dependencies should be addd to the system
20150810 01:21:42< mattsc> Aginor: no, that is not what I want
20150810 01:21:45< Aginor> instead I think that wesnoth should look for those dependencies in /usr/local/Cellar or wherever
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20150810 01:22:51< mattsc> I would like to provide a way for new developers to build their local repo for all OS X versions back to 10.6 without a major struggle.
20150810 01:23:02< mattsc> I don’t care at all how that is accomplished.
20150810 01:23:29< mattsc> The thing is, I know how to do it with Macports and Xcode.  I don’t know other methods (at least not in practive)
20150810 01:23:35< mattsc> *practice
20150810 01:24:04< Aginor> mattsc: aha :)
20150810 01:24:05< ancestral> I know Xcode and homebrew
20150810 01:24:16< ancestral> So there we go
20150810 01:24:24< ancestral> :)
20150810 01:24:35< mattsc> Sorry, I would have made that clearer earlier on, but I am literally running around all over the place at the moment.  :)
20150810 01:25:15< Aginor> mattsc: so the real issue is to be able to build versions for older os x?
20150810 01:25:40< mattsc> Yes, the libraries I have at the moment work on 10.9 and 10.10 out of the box.
20150810 01:26:19< mattsc> They do not work on 10.6 and 10.7 (not just because of pango, other libraries won’t work either because some of the system libraries have moved)
20150810 01:26:49< Aginor> what about the issue of newer xcodes not coming with os x 10.6 bundles?
20150810 01:26:52< mattsc> I do not know about 10.8 at this time (I hope that it will work there too, but I don’t have access to a 10.8 system; or a tester on 10.8)
20150810 01:27:53< mattsc> This is not about releases, you’d use whatever Xcode you have on your computer.  You just have to replace some of the libraries in the Resource bundle.
20150810 01:28:17< mattsc> unless I don’t understand what you are saying ...
20150810 01:28:55< mattsc> As I see it, we need 3 things:
20150810 01:29:00< Aginor> mattsc: I'm running 10.10, with a recent version of xcode. I can't select 10.6 as a build target in xcode
20150810 01:29:27< mattsc> Aginor: right; but why would you; you are not trying to run it on 10.6, you are trying to run it on 10.10
20150810 01:29:42< mattsc> I think we are not talking about the same thing.
20150810 01:30:23< mattsc> Let’s make an example: we release 1.13.2.  We will provide three things:
20150810 01:30:27< Aginor> mattsc: but you said I wanted to cross-compile for 10.6
20150810 01:31:06< mattsc> no - I said I want to provide an easy option for people on 10.6 to compile
20150810 01:31:40< Aginor> ah...
20150810 01:32:12< mattsc> Let me try it again.  I think we should provide 3 things:
20150810 01:32:37< mattsc> 1. A 1.13.2 dmg that runs on 10.10 and 10.9  (and possibly 10.8)
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20150810 01:33:02< mattsc> 2. A homebrew recipy that compiles 1.13.2 for you on 10.6 and 10.7 (and possibly 10.8)
20150810 01:33:36< mattsc> 3. Some sort of way of getting people on 10.6-10.7 (and 10.8?) set up to compile their local repo if they want to develop things.
20150810 01:33:58< Aginor> and 3. is the issue?
20150810 01:34:05< mattsc> The same things (#3) is not necessary for 10.9 and 10.10 because the github repo will work out of the box
20150810 01:34:23< mattsc> Aginor: that is the one thing that we do not have already.
20150810 01:34:47< mattsc> And I was trying to find out whether ancestral has an easier way to do that through homebrew than I do through Macports.
20150810 01:35:14< Aginor> and then I butted in and confused things, sorry
20150810 01:35:19< mattsc> Or if somebody has a better suggestion and/or wants to do the work, I will definitely not put up a fight  :)
20150810 01:35:42< mattsc> Aginor: nah, no problem; I should not have started the conversation when I did not have time to follow through.
20150810 01:35:53< mattsc> I should have known that that wasn’t an easy question  :)
20150810 01:36:25< mattsc> Anyways, I hope I was clearer now, because right now I need to run off again … 
20150810 01:36:54< Aginor> I'll give it some thought
20150810 01:37:09< mattsc> Cool, thanks.
20150810 01:38:17< Aginor> my initial thought is that macports or homebrew will make things harder once you've made a first build
20150810 01:38:45< Aginor> you have to tweak the recipe to point at your local repo; you have to nuke the state for each rebuild;
20150810 01:39:28< Aginor> I wonder if it might not be better to make a convenient way for the dependencies to be installed, and have cmake generate an xcode project once it picks up on those depenencies
20150810 01:39:42< Aginor> this implies that cmake has to be able to find them...
20150810 01:41:27< mattsc> Aginor: the way how I would do it, I would only build the libraries need by Xcode using Macports
20150810 01:42:10< mattsc> I’d write a script that does that (compiling the libraries), modify them as needed, and move them into the correct place in the Wesnoth Xcode project directory.
20150810 01:42:30< mattsc> Then you compile Wesnoth with Xcode.
20150810 01:43:00< mattsc> I know how  to do that, because that’s how I got it to work for the releases in the first place.
20150810 01:43:09< mattsc> Only that I did it by hand rather than writing a scrupt.
20150810 01:43:14< mattsc> *script.
20150810 01:43:26< Aginor> mattsc: the only real difference there is that I would try to generate the xcode project with out-of-tree dependencies instead
20150810 01:43:29< mattsc> Well, I wrote scripts for some parts, but not all
20150810 01:43:53< Aginor> and have a script to install the dependencies
20150810 01:44:08< Aginor> brew install libsdl, brew install pango and so on...
20150810 01:45:00< Aginor> make sure cmake searches in the relevant directories, and then generate me an xcode project with the right external includes
20150810 01:45:06< mattsc> Aginor: sure, but then you’ll have a different Xcode project file for the different versions; and I do not know a way to actually modify an Xcode file successfully other than by using Xcode
20150810 01:45:27< mattsc> I’m not saying it can’t be done, just that I don’t know.
20150810 01:45:28< Aginor> mattsc: the xcode project wouldn't be checked in
20150810 01:46:04< Aginor> it would be a part of the local build process, and specific to that person's machine
20150810 01:46:05< mattsc> Aginor: anyways, I need to be off again; if you want to think about it or work on this, by all means
20150810 01:46:30< Aginor> mattsc: I might look at the feasability of cmake, but I don't have 10.6 to test on
20150810 01:46:36< mattsc> ttyl — I might have a little more time later tonight, but I am not sure yet
20150810 01:46:38< Aginor> or anything that's not 10.10
20150810 01:47:08< mattsc> Aginor, I have a series of old barely function laptops with 10.5, 10.6, 10.9 and a new one with 10.10
20150810 01:47:13< mattsc> And celticminstrel has 10.7
20150810 01:47:32< mattsc> so between us we can get everything except 10.8 tested
20150810 01:47:46< mattsc> okay, bye for real; for now
20150810 01:47:58< ancestral> StandYourGround has encountered issues with 10.11 but some of the dependencies may require updates, or there may just flat out be bugs somewhere lower level
20150810 01:48:05< mattsc> s/function/functioning
20150810 01:48:11< ancestral> Too early to test yet
20150810 01:48:20< ancestral> mattsc: See ya!
20150810 01:51:30< celticminstrel> Aginor: The problem with looking in /usr/local/Cellar is, what if they use MacPorts? What if they use Fink? What if they build their own Boost and install it in /usr/local/ (as I did at one point)?
20150810 01:52:33< Aginor> celticminstrel: that's reasonably easy to deal with though. It should "just" be a few additional directories to hint about for the cmake find process
20150810 01:52:53< Aginor> it should be reasonably determenistic
20150810 01:53:14< Aginor> and if they install it in a too crazy location, they probably know what they're doing and can deal with the consequences
20150810 01:53:14< ancestral> Can’t you use `whereis` or `which`?
20150810 01:53:18< celticminstrel> If you're generating the project file using CMake, sure, but Wenoth isn't doing that.
20150810 01:53:20< ancestral> Or $PATH
20150810 01:53:24< ancestral> Or something
20150810 01:53:30< celticminstrel> No.
20150810 01:53:36< Aginor> celticminstrel: that's what I'm proposing to do though
20150810 01:53:41< celticminstrel> $PATH is for executable binaries, not libraries.
20150810 01:53:55< celticminstrel> I'm not sure if there's a $LIBPATH or similar.
20150810 01:54:11< Aginor> not that would matter
20150810 01:54:20< Aginor> you would have to pass CFLAGS or CPPFLAGS
20150810 01:54:35< celticminstrel> And `which` checks $PATH.
20150810 01:54:35< Aginor> which really is what you're trying to automate in thr first palce
20150810 01:55:46< celticminstrel> The generating route has downsides too. Do you regenerate it when a new source file is added?
20150810 01:56:17< Aginor> celticminstrel: good point.
20150810 01:56:38< Aginor> you would have to
20150810 02:00:10< Aginor> how often is that an occurrence nowadays though?
20150810 02:00:32< celticminstrel> How often is a new GUI2 dialog added?
20150810 02:00:47< celticminstrel> It looks like each GUI2 dialog is implemented in its own source/header/cfg triplet.
20150810 02:00:52< Aginor> I don't know :D
20150810 02:00:54< Aginor> ouch
20150810 02:01:09< celticminstrel> I don't know either.
20150810 02:01:11< Aginor> I see a need for someone to refactor that into something more generic
20150810 02:01:21< celticminstrel> What do you mean?
20150810 02:01:36< Aginor> or do you mean new types of dialogues?
20150810 02:02:22< Aginor> if I want to pop up a new dialogue window at some point, saying "hello world", do I really need to add 3 files to do that?
20150810 02:02:52< celticminstrel> By "dialog" I mean the definition of a specific dialog that can then be invoke as many times as you need.
20150810 02:03:13< celticminstrel> For example, I recently added a dialog that allows you to show or hide labels set by certain players.
20150810 02:03:20< Aginor> I see...
20150810 02:03:23< aquileia> celticminstrel, loonycyborg:   !define MUI_LICENSEPAGE_TEXT_BOTTOM " "   !define MUI_LICENSEPAGE_BUTTON $(^NextBtn)   would do the trick without adding unlocalized strings.
20150810 02:03:37< celticminstrel> aquileia: Sure.
20150810 02:03:52< celticminstrel> That makes sense to me.
20150810 02:04:26< aquileia> celticminstrel: If you ever come back to that project, you could use $(^InstallBtn) instead of "&Install" - it's the translated version
20150810 02:04:44< celticminstrel> Aginor: I'm not sure, but for really simple dialogs you could probably either use an existing GUI2 dialog class or build it on the fly.
20150810 02:04:59< celticminstrel> aquileia: I might consider that if it ever gets to a state where localization is possible at all.
20150810 02:05:08< Aginor> fair enough
20150810 02:05:09< aquileia> ok
20150810 02:05:18< Aginor> but this is getting beside the point :)
20150810 02:05:46< Aginor> celticminstrel: I think project re-generation may be acceptible if the cost of doing so is low
20150810 02:05:57< mattsc> Aginor, celticminstrel: this is how often the source file list is adjusted: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commits/master/src/CMakeLists.txt
20150810 02:06:43< Aginor> so it really comes down to, what settings are lost when it's re-generated
20150810 02:06:49< Aginor> mattsc: that's not terribly often
20150810 02:06:52< celticminstrel> Looks like around once a month.
20150810 02:07:07< aquileia> loonycyborg: I still need to know your opinion on whether I should do it. If desired, I could just cut out the entire licence page - the question isn't what's possible, but what we want
20150810 02:07:27< aquileia> I'll read the logs, good nightall
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20150810 02:15:18< celticminstrel> In 1.12, a moveto event (or, possibly just certain things in a moveto event) cancels an attack.
20150810 02:17:48< celticminstrel> Is that a bug?
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20150810 02:22:07< iceiceice> Aginor: re developing using the homebrew libs,
20150810 02:22:16< iceiceice> the closest that i got to making an OS X nightly build was to do this on travis:
20150810 02:22:17< iceiceice> https://github.com/cbeck88/wesnoth/commit/82e2b0168d29e065cdc61390a5f42805c9154887
20150810 02:22:29< ancestral> iceiceice: was about to ping you ;-)
20150810 02:22:42< iceiceice> what that does is, tap homebrew games,
20150810 02:22:50< iceiceice> install wesnoth deps only
20150810 02:22:54< iceiceice> then build with scons command lie
20150810 02:22:57< iceiceice> *line
20150810 02:22:57< Aginor> iceiceice: that looks promising
20150810 02:23:18< Aginor> thanks :)
20150810 02:23:24< iceiceice> :)
20150810 02:27:08< mattsc> hi iceiceice :)
20150810 02:27:42< mattsc> Aginor, celticminstrel, ancestral: I will probably have to sign off for real soon.  Just wanted to add one more thing:
20150810 02:28:35< mattsc> I was only doing this (OS X builds and maintenance, before ancestral took over) because at the time there was no other active developer using OS X, not because I know anything about it.
20150810 02:28:49< mattsc> So I have no particular opinions on how things should be done.
20150810 02:29:18< mattsc> In fact, I don’t particularly want to do this  (I have lots of other things to keep me busy, such as stubborn Fred atm)
20150810 02:29:52< celticminstrel> By the way, ancestral, did you try my reorganized XCode project yet?
20150810 02:30:06< mattsc> … and mostly because I am not particularly qualified for it.
20150810 02:30:11< ancestral> No I need to
20150810 02:30:19< ancestral> You put up a PR, right?
20150810 02:30:27< mattsc> So if somebody else wanted to take over my part of it, I’d be more than happy about that.
20150810 02:30:39< celticminstrel> Yes.
20150810 02:31:13< ancestral> Thanks mattsc
20150810 02:31:36< mattsc> Also, ancestral, celticminstrel, Aginor: I don’t know if you saw that yesterday, I’ll be going camping Tue - Sun this week and I am not bringing any wifi enabled devices.  :)
20150810 02:31:45< ancestral> Oooh! Have fun!
20150810 02:31:54< celticminstrel> Yeah, I saw that.
20150810 02:32:08< mattsc> ancestral: Thanks!
20150810 02:32:26< mattsc> I’ll check the logs when I get back, but it might take me a little to catch up, given how busy things are atm.
20150810 02:33:17< mattsc> Anyways, it’s great to be seeing these discussion.  Thanks, everybody!
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20150810 03:56:36< Aginor> mattsc, ancestra, celticminstrel: I'm not a primary OS X developer, I do most of my work in Linux. But I have done some OS X things in the past so I am happy to help out
20150810 03:59:37< celticminstrel> You missed the L in ancestral. :P
20150810 03:59:47< Aginor> oops :D
20150810 03:59:50< ancestral> Cool :)
20150810 04:00:08 * celticminstrel is primary OSX, secondary Win7.
20150810 04:00:44< Aginor> above all, I'm finding myself bedridden while recovering from surgery so I'm stuck on my laptop, which is runing osx :D
20150810 04:00:58< ancestral> (mattsc is trying to get away from packaging completely. I’m doing it for now, he’s been helping out when I’ve run into some problems.)
20150810 04:01:19< ancestral> (But long term, if someone wants to take it on, I’d be more than happy with that.)
20150810 04:01:21< Aginor> fair enough
20150810 04:01:32< Aginor> I'm not the right choice for os x packaging :D
20150810 04:01:40< celticminstrel> Packaging is harder than it sounds.
20150810 04:01:43< ancestral> Sure, no problem
20150810 04:01:58< celticminstrel> Even if it runs on your computer, there's no guarantee it'll run when sent to another computer.
20150810 04:02:09< Aginor> I can help out, but I will move away from osx when this old laptop dies
20150810 04:04:42< Aginor> celticminstrel: that's true
20150810 04:04:55< Aginor> is there an overall packaging strategy across platforms?
20150810 04:05:11< celticminstrel> I don't think that's possible.
20150810 04:05:13< Aginor> is there a debian/ubuntu/fedora maintainer?
20150810 04:05:34< Aginor> celticminstrel: I'm not saying it's the same, I'm asking if there's a plan for it :)
20150810 04:06:25< Aginor> I guess release management might be the over-reaching term of what I'm thinking of
20150810 04:06:47< ancestral> Here’s how it goes
20150810 04:07:11< ancestral> The senior devs set a timeline for the next release
20150810 04:07:34< ancestral> (Let’s say dev release for now)
20150810 04:07:40< ancestral> So 1.13.2 for example
20150810 04:08:15< ancestral> Maybe 2 or 3 weeks out, they take a look at all critical bugs, make sure they’re resolved or any new features that aren’t working disabled, etc.
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20150810 04:08:30< Aginor> ancestral: code freeze, testing and so on
20150810 04:08:34< ancestral> Yes
20150810 04:08:46< ancestral> shadowm will alert packagers a week or so beforehand
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20150810 04:09:21< ancestral> Then the release is tagged on GitHub, a final announcement is drafted, 
20150810 04:09:31< ancestral> And packagers start their engines, and upload
20150810 04:10:08< ancestral> Aginor: There is no packager for Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora IIRC
20150810 04:10:29< ancestral> That the package managers do a pretty good job on those systems that it’s less of an issue?
20150810 04:10:34< ancestral> I may be wrong about this
20150810 04:11:06< Aginor> ok, fair enough
20150810 04:11:18< Aginor> I'll stop asking process questions for now :)
20150810 04:11:26< ancestral> But if Wesnoth gets on Steam
20150810 04:11:46< ancestral> There will need to be a Linux packager
20150810 04:12:07< Aginor> you'll need to worry about user experience across platforms as well
20150810 04:12:12< ancestral> Yes
20150810 04:12:28< shadowm> Linux distributions deal with the matter of packaging Wesnoth on their own.
20150810 04:12:55< ancestral> (shadowm can correct anything I’ve said which may be wrong)
20150810 04:13:48< shadowm> Of course, they leverage our CMake recipe (and I imagine in a few cases the SCons recipe) to prepare their own builds.
20150810 04:15:48< Aginor> ancestral: why not target getting into the Apple app store too? :)
20150810 04:18:02< ancestral> Aginor: Yes, I think we want to — probably closer to BFW getting onto Steam
20150810 04:18:17< ancestral> And there’s the Windows App Store
20150810 04:18:42< Aginor> oh yeah, I keep forgetting about that one
20150810 04:19:32< ancestral> “Windows Store”
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20150810 04:20:21< ancestral> And then, get Desura updated, GoG, Humble Store…
20150810 04:20:23< ancestral> :-P
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20150810 04:23:07< shadowm> Didn't Desura close down?
20150810 04:24:37< ancestral> Did they get bought out?
20150810 04:25:01< ancestral> Hmm “On July 10, 2013, Linden Lab announced that they acquired Desura.”
20150810 04:25:24< shadowm> http://www.pcgamer.com/desura-and-indie-royale-parent-company-files-for-bankruptcy/
20150810 04:25:29< ancestral> “It was announced on November 5, 2014 that Linden, in turn, sold the Desura service to Bad Juju Games.[19][20] Bad Juju later filed for bankruptcy in June 2015.”
20150810 04:25:32< ancestral> Ah
20150810 04:26:26< ancestral> Yeah the big ones I can think of are Steam, GoG, Humble Store, Mac App Store and Windows Store
20150810 04:26:32< shadowm> desura.com is a blank document for me.
20150810 04:28:04< ancestral> Oh, GamersGate is sorta known
20150810 04:28:29< ancestral> I always joked they probably got more business when #gamergate was going on
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20150810 05:14:09< aeth> Wesnoth on Steam... but it has its own add-on server, and its own multiplayer/account infrastructure, so a lot of the main uses Steam aren't used.
20150810 05:14:55< aeth> I would love a Wesnoth launch on Steam, though, so the MP server could go way up in population so it wouldn't be so hard to organize games.
20150810 05:15:51< aeth> An optional way to link to Steam accounts if possible would be very useful, probably.
20150810 05:19:12< aeth> If Wesnoth is on Steam, a screenshot functionality probably isn't needed because Steam has its own screenshot functionality (and if you're not playing it on Steam, you can use your system's screenshot tool anyway)
20150810 05:23:38< vultraz> Wesnoth's screenshot tool is used to generate imagefiles of the full maps, not just the window.
20150810 05:25:04< aeth> ah, interesting.
20150810 05:25:13< aeth> 1.13?
20150810 05:25:18< celticminstrel> It has a multiplayer acount infrastructure?
20150810 05:25:48< aeth> celticminstrel: A lot of newer games just use Steam for add-ons and MP, and if you buy them somewhere else you just get a Steam key.
20150810 05:25:54< celticminstrel> ...oh, that screenshot feature sounds useful for the way I make bigmaps.
20150810 05:26:09< aeth> vultraz: that screenshot feature reminds me of one from AoEII, which was really awesome
20150810 05:26:11< celticminstrel> Speaking of which, I should update that addon to 1.12. I don't think it's on the addons server.
20150810 05:26:38< celticminstrel> aeth: By "it" I meant Wesnoth.
20150810 05:27:12< aeth> celticminstrel: yes, you have a username and a password and...
20150810 05:27:15< aeth> and...
20150810 05:28:06< celticminstrel> I have never logged into a Wesnoth server before! Just entered the name and connected.
20150810 05:29:03< aeth> I think it uses the same account as the forum
20150810 05:29:08< aeth> or something
20150810 05:29:31< celticminstrel> Which would be a minor problem, since I use a different name when in Wesnoth.
20150810 05:29:42< aeth> Yes
20150810 05:29:51< aeth> Perhaps register two then
20150810 05:30:06< aeth> I'm considering registering two accounts, if that's allowed
20150810 05:30:20< aeth> (well, one's already registered)
20150810 05:31:51< vultraz> It's rudimentary
20150810 05:35:53< celticminstrel> It works without modifications, yay!
20150810 05:36:17< celticminstrel> Though the road and river terrains appear three times in the palette, for some bizarre reason.
20150810 05:37:05< celticminstrel> Also it looks like the roads don't connect properly, but that was probably the case in 1.10 as well.
20150810 05:39:45< celticminstrel> I just tried the screenshot command. It saves the window, not the whole map.
20150810 05:40:10< celticminstrel> Oh, there's a separate map screenshot key.
20150810 05:40:19< aeth> Just like in AoEII
20150810 05:41:17< celticminstrel> Well, there's still one problem with it - it captures the selected hex.
20150810 05:41:35< celticminstrel> But that can be avoided by moving the mouse, and might be desirable sometimes.
20150810 05:41:41< celticminstrel> So good enough, I guess.
20150810 05:42:14< celticminstrel> I can now use this to generate scenario-start maps of any area I want.
20150810 05:42:52< celticminstrel> ...the forests look a bit too hexagonal. Eh.
20150810 05:44:32< celticminstrel> The terrain graphics set still needs some work, then. :/
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20150810 05:53:19< aeth> celticminstrel: oh wow if it captures the selected hex (and most recent unit?) there's no advantage over an external screenshot
20150810 05:53:27< Aginor> Project /Users/andreas/wesnoth/mbuild/Project.xcodeproj cannot be opened because the project file cannot be parsed.
20150810 05:53:42< Aginor> looks like cmake xcode generator is a bit broken
20150810 05:53:51< celticminstrel> aeth: Yes there is, because you can capture the whole map.
20150810 05:54:06< aeth> celticminstrel: I mean, the other screenshot
20150810 05:54:06< celticminstrel> Also, you can avoid it capturing the hex by moving the mouse to the sidebar.
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20150810 05:54:49< celticminstrel> The other screenshot is exactly the same as Ctrl-Printscreen or Shift-Cmd-4-Space.
20150810 05:55:06< celticminstrel> ...okay, it doesn't capture the window decorations, but apart from that.
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20150810 05:59:50< aeth> celticminstrel: You can uncheck window decorations in KDE's screenshot program
20150810 06:00:04< celticminstrel> Mac and Windows don't offer that.
20150810 06:00:50< aeth> Mac and Windows don't offer a lot of things that KDE's had for years. (Although KDE pays the price by being buggy.)
20150810 06:01:06 * celticminstrel shrug.
20150810 06:02:10< aeth> I'm guessing Windows users who take lots of screenshots download random freeware off of Google that does screenshots better than Windows's built-in app.
20150810 06:02:36< aeth> That seems to be the Windows ecosystem way of doing anything that's out of the box on other systems.
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20150810 06:02:49< celticminstrel> "Windows's build-in app"
20150810 06:02:58< celticminstrel> It's not an app, it's a global keyboard shortcut.
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20150810 06:03:13< aeth> Sorry, I'm used to the Unix way of doing things.
20150810 06:03:16< celticminstrel> Same on the Mac (though I think the Mac does offer an app with additional features as well).
20150810 06:03:34< aeth> Everything's a separate app in Unix
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20150810 06:08:31< aeth> celticminstrel: I'm guessing Mac is very similar except instead of using Google you can now use (and are probably encouraged to use) the Mac App Store
20150810 06:08:44< celticminstrel> What are we talking about now?
20150810 06:08:52< aeth> How different OSes work
20150810 06:09:06< celticminstrel> I'm confused at why you brought up Google and the App Store.
20150810 06:09:15< aeth> i.e. I suspect you can take screenshots via external applications ignoring window decorations on other OSes, it's just not built in
20150810 06:15:47< celticminstrel> Probably.
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20150810 06:50:57< Aginor> so this is biting me: http://public.kitware.com/Bug/view.php?id=15672
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20150810 07:32:38< aquileia> re screenshots, Windows has the 'snipping tool' for rectangular and free-form selections. I myself use IrfanView, which has quite a few additional modes like borderless window selection, timers ect.
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20150810 08:53:56< loonycyborg> aquileia: yes, change that button to Next, it would be appropriate Ithink
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20150810 11:18:31< jxanthony> I'm interested in fixing this: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/NotSoEasyCoding#Passphrase_hashing
20150810 11:18:46< jxanthony> Would adding a dependency to scrypt be a problem?
20150810 11:19:05< jxanthony> I'm vafuely aware that boost still lacks a simple but secure hashing method
20150810 11:25:06< jxanthony> Oh, there's an MD5 implementation I see here. I guess that would be a decent (but less secure) fallback.
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20150810 11:59:11< wedge009> Just wondering: are there any campaigns which might be considered for mainline inclusion? What might be the closest, if any? Is the focus on development vs content an indication of the stretched resources?
20150810 12:06:51< zookeeper> i'm sure there's several campaigns which quality-wise are good enough for mainline (it's not like all mainline campaigns are particularly magnificent...). but considering how few people are interested in working on the existing campaigns, there's little reason to assume that new additions would get more attention than that.
20150810 12:09:02< zookeeper> personally i think many if not most mainline campaigns could be improved by leaps and bounds, and i'd rather see that happen and thus have fewer but much better campaigns, than a greater number of good but unpolished campaigns.
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20150810 12:12:05< zookeeper> i'd imagine that mainline campaigns already provide more hours of gameplay than virtually any other comparable game, and mainline doesn't need to be nor should it be the place where every piece of good content ends up eventually.
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20150810 12:13:16< zookeeper> that said, it's not like we have a policy of not accepting any new campaigns.
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20150810 12:26:41< wedge009> Oh right... I didn't think the existing campaigns were in need of that much extra polish - I thought they're pretty good as is. I suppose I'm coming from the perspective of a story player - in games in general, not just Wesnoth, I really enjoy a good story to drive the game. I know there's a lot of background lore beyond what's in the existing campaigns and I thought some of it might be in those campaigns that aren't yet included.
20150810 12:27:06< wedge009> Is it a case of having to update existing campaigns with every new major release to account for changes, additions, etc?
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20150810 12:30:09< zookeeper> not really, more about keeping things up-to-date WRT things like new terrains and effects and whatnot, improving the balance and making sure for example AI changes don't break it, and just gradually improving them, fixing continuity issues and other story/dialogue problems, etc.
20150810 12:31:08< zookeeper> there's huge amounts of gameplay issues in mainline campaigns in the form of tomato surprises for example. it might not be apparent if you've learned to accept those problems as being part of the game.
20150810 12:33:58< wedge009> Fair enough. From what I read in the notes, Under the Burning Suns was cited as an example of those surprises. Admittedly, it's been a long time since I played through them, but I can't recall many others that were overly bad. I suppose those surprises do help keep things interesting, but of course they can easily become a source of frustration.
20150810 12:36:02< zookeeper> yeah, it's not like they ruin the scenario for most people
20150810 12:36:40< zookeeper> and if they do, i'd imagine most of _those_ people would just habitually load and not think much about it
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20150810 12:53:28< jxanthony> Hooray, my first Wesnoth pull request
20150810 12:53:37< jxanthony> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/449
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20150810 13:13:36< wedge009> Nice work.
20150810 13:16:32< jxanthony> May as well take the "Wesnoth Needs Your Help!" post down now
20150810 13:17:02< jxanthony> That 50-line patch to a minor service should be enough to save Wesnoth, I suspect
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20150810 13:30:38< aquileia> jxanthony: Would you mind to do a "git rebase -i HEAD~2" and make the second commit a fixup of the first? It's not necessary, but we prefer to keep PR history clean
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20150810 13:31:37< aquileia> alternatively, just undo the last commit, stage the whitespace change and "git commit --amend"
20150810 13:35:06< jxanthony> aquileia: Done
20150810 13:35:34< aquileia> thanks
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20150810 13:36:14< jxanthony> Any thoughts on the hashing situation?
20150810 13:37:03< aquileia> Not my forte, sorry
20150810 13:38:45< jxanthony> No worries
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20150810 13:51:09< pydsigner> zookeeper: UtBS's plot runs on tomatoes
20150810 13:59:12< zookeeper> so?
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20150810 14:08:20< pydsigner> zookeeper: So it's more forgivable for UtBS
20150810 14:08:35< pydsigner> especially as the campaign opens with a tomato warning
20150810 14:09:14< pydsigner> though some of the tomatoes are perhaps over the top.
20150810 14:10:40< zookeeper> saying that tomato surprises are more forgivable because there's tomato surprises doesn't make any sense. the plot has nothing to do with it.
20150810 14:21:54< pydsigner> "It changes certain Wesnoth standards, such as the elves’ stats and the day/night cycle. This campaign emphasizes role-playing elements and tends to have longer scenarios with objectives that change in the middle."
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20150810 21:07:38< afre> I want to learn WML. I suppose going through wiki.wesnoth.org/Create is thing to do. Any suggestions?
20150810 21:08:08< shadowm> Do you want to make a campaign?
20150810 21:08:13< pydsigner> afre: I'm told it's easier to start by working on an existing campaign
20150810 21:08:26< shadowm> An MP scenaro? An era? Something in concrete?
20150810 21:09:54< shadowm> The reason I'm asking is that it's extremely hard to learn a programming language/API (in my experience) if you haven't set out to do something specific with it.
20150810 21:15:30< afre> shadowm: Hence my question. I want to get an idea of how WML works to better understand Wesnoth and thereby be able to give better feedback. What specific thing could I do to familiarize myself?
20150810 21:17:32< afre> I guess I could start reading existing .cfgs.
20150810 21:17:35< shadowm> Is there anything you want to _create_ in Wesnoth? Perhaps tell a story, make your own units, resurrect an abandoned campaign, bring the engine to its knees?
20150810 21:18:23< afre> Good point: imagining what I would like to do myself...
20150810 21:18:29< shadowm> Maybe you've played a campaign/scenario that you know has bugs or could use some improvements and you'd like to have a try at learning the requisite fluff to make it happen?
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20150810 21:23:45< Aginor> give the tutorial some love, I went through it the other day and it tells you to go to a bunch of places without explaining what they are/look like
20150810 21:24:47< afre> Aginor: I thought about that just now.
20150810 21:25:34< shadowm> Aginor: The 1.13.x tutorial?
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20150810 21:26:05< Aginor> shadowm: yes
20150810 21:26:09< shadowm> vultraz: ^
20150810 21:26:30< shadowm> vultraz worked on improving the tutorial for 1.13.0, so he's the closest thing we have to a tutorial maintainer right now.
20150810 21:26:49< Aginor> I could go and raise some bugs
20150810 21:26:50< shadowm> Perhaps he could give you an idea of what things you could work on and turn into PRs.
20150810 21:27:58< vultraz> If you found a few bugs, please file them.
20150810 21:28:11< vultraz> I did copious improvements to the tutorial in 1.13, but it could still use feedback
20150810 21:28:23< Aginor> vultraz: I'll file bugs
20150810 21:28:50< Aginor> well, I will once I'm back at my dev machine
20150810 21:29:08< shadowm> btw vultraz, you know this exists, right? http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewforum.php?f=46
20150810 21:29:37< vultraz> Huh
20150810 21:29:52< vultraz> Apparently a lot of people forgot that, since the last post is 2012
20150810 21:31:19< pydsigner> ^
20150810 21:32:11< pydsigner> I'd say that a large portion of people commenting on campaigns on the forum don't play the Tutorial any more though.
20150810 21:34:12< afre> pydsigner: makes sense that only new users play it.
20150810 21:34:42< pydsigner> New players and devs heh
20150810 21:34:55< midzer> i want to replay tutorial too, my last wesnoth game has been many years ago
20150810 21:35:10< afre> Though I revisited it a few times over the years to see what changed, so maybe I should be a dev some day - haha.
20150810 21:35:39< pydsigner> The thing is, the tutorial hasn't changed [noticeably] in my time playing Wesnoth.
20150810 21:36:01< afre> So it's more in the code?
20150810 21:36:02< pydsigner> midzer: I'd count you in the "new user" category for these purposes
20150810 21:36:20< pydsigner> afre: I'm not sure, I'm just talking from my playthroughs
20150810 21:36:27< Ravana_> I have been thinking of improvements to tutorial, however that would depend on how it has changed in the 3 years since I last looked it
20150810 21:36:43< midzer> pydsigner: yes, i will share my experience (maybe on the forums too)
20150810 21:36:57< pydsigner> If you look at that forum section, feedback came immediately after changes
20150810 21:37:05< pydsigner> Ravana_: Scroll up
20150810 21:37:37< pydsigner> There are changes in 1.13 from vultraz at this point
20150810 21:37:44< pydsigner> I'm not sure how significant.
20150810 21:37:54< Ravana_> I suspect it still doesn't include some essential skills
20150810 21:38:27< celticminstrel> I played it recently, but I think that was in 1.12,
20150810 21:38:27< Ravana_> I have basically every version from 1.8 to 1.13 installed so I can check how they are different
20150810 21:38:35< celticminstrel> ...wow.
20150810 21:39:01< afre> Wow indeed. I usually uninstall install.
20150810 21:39:45< shadowm> I've not installed Wesnoth since 2006.
20150810 21:40:02< pydsigner> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commits/master/data/campaigns/tutorial?page=5
20150810 21:40:23< pydsigner> vultraz has 4.2 pages of changes in the last year or so
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20150810 21:40:43< pydsigner> Before that very little had been altered recently.
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20150810 21:46:15< Ravana_> I believe tutorial is not supposed to make wesnoth crash though..http://pastebin.com/mDgw8tQ4
20150810 21:46:24< Ravana_> 1.13.1
20150810 21:47:59< afre> Ravana_: when does it crash? I'm loading it right now.
20150810 21:48:24< Ravana_> when attacking dummy in the south and choosing that "I got it"
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20150810 21:56:37< afre> Ravana_: do you kill any of them?
20150810 21:57:03< Ravana_> none in the south
20150810 21:57:27< afre> So you attack once and say that "I got it"?
20150810 21:57:51< afre> I'm trying to reproduce your crash.
20150810 21:58:15< Ravana_> yes
20150810 21:58:57< Aginor> Ravana_: platform? windows?
20150810 21:59:02< Ravana_> yes
20150810 22:00:05< Ravana_> I have heard blank vs default era conflicts be from sp/mp unification
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20150810 22:05:41< afre> It doesn't crash for me. I don't get the pastebin data. I don't see anything related to the tutorial...
20150810 22:07:56< afre> shadowm: should I post my feedback there? http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewforum.php?f=46
20150810 22:08:11< shadowm> vultraz: Should afre post his feedback there?
20150810 22:08:40< shadowm> afre: Are you on 1.13.1+dev or the released 1.13.1?
20150810 22:09:08< shadowm> Because IIRC gfgtdf fixed the same bug Ravana_ encountered, not too long after 1.13.1 was announced.
20150810 22:09:41< afre> 1.13.1, 'cause if you recall I use cygwin which is not safe for use - haha.
20150810 22:10:04< vultraz> I also tweaked one or two things in +dev
20150810 22:10:08< shadowm> 1.13.1+dev changelog: "Fixed transition to second scenario."
20150810 22:11:23< vultraz> afre: as for where to post feedback... yeah I think that thread would be the best place.
20150810 22:17:12< afre> vultraz: thanks. I'll make sure I state the version.
20150810 22:24:32< afre> shadowm: There's an era that I did enjoy playing a while back. I don't know if it's the best place to start because of it's pretty buggy and imbalanced. http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=22667&p=587281&hilit=Nightmares+of+Meloen#p587281
20150810 22:27:33< shadowm> Looks like someone else wants to take it over too.
20150810 22:28:32< afre> Yeah, I linked to that post. Have you seen this person around?
20150810 22:28:50< shadowm> No, I don't think so.
20150810 22:29:08< shadowm> There are a lot of people on the forums who never go on IRC anyway.
20150810 22:32:06< afre> Anyway, I'll see what I can learn WML-wise from tinkering with it.
20150810 22:33:38< afre> vultraz: I just closed Tutorial I and voila, it crashed? Is that what you fixed?
20150810 22:34:10< afre> I mean using End Scenario.
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--- Log closed Tue Aug 11 00:00:45 2015