--- Log opened Tue Aug 11 00:00:45 2015
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20150811 06:30:56< ancestral> Hey, I want to create an add-on
20150811 06:31:04< ancestral> Do we have any kind of template?
20150811 06:31:31< ancestral> Like, “hey, this is blank add-on with a map and a scenario.cfg file, etc., start with this”
20150811 06:31:47< zookeeper> "Campaign-How-To (A Simple Campaign)"
20150811 06:32:11< zookeeper> but i suggest you first decide what you want to create.
20150811 06:33:33< ancestral> Right
20150811 06:34:35< ancestral> I feel like a template add-on would be a really good idea
20150811 06:35:11< celticminstrel> I concur.
20150811 06:35:32< zookeeper> you can't make a template add-on which fits all or even most add-on types. we'd need a template for a campaign, MP map, MP scenario, resource pack, modification, era, etc
20150811 06:35:47< celticminstrel> Well yes, a set of templates.
20150811 06:36:08< celticminstrel> ...isn't an MP map literally just a map file?
20150811 06:37:18< ancestral> Well, you wouldn’t need it to be complete
20150811 06:37:25< ancestral> Something runnable
20150811 06:37:46< ancestral> That satisfies the basics. Maybe a MP scenario or something.
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20150811 06:44:27< aeth> ancestral: imo you can't really have a template because Wesnoth is in transition as to what best practices are.
20150811 06:44:38< aeth> Except for maybe e.g. units or maps
20150811 06:45:30< aeth> Every new major version (ok, middle verison but basically major version), the best way to implement something changes.
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20150811 06:46:06< celticminstrel> Templates can be updated, you know.
20150811 06:46:40< aeth> The keyword there is can.
20150811 06:47:37< aeth> What will probably happen: In two years, whoever makes templates will move onto something else and then they'll be very out of date.
20150811 06:49:00< aeth> ancestral: The most reliable method imo is to just copy something that is minimal and that works.
20150811 06:49:05< aeth> It's all GPL
20150811 06:49:34< aeth> Just keep removing until it no longer runs properly, and then you found out what you need.
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20150811 07:06:42< zookeeper> best practises WRT basic add-on structure don't change practically ever
20150811 07:07:11< zookeeper> the last thing i can recall is moving to _main.cfg
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20150811 13:24:55< aquileia> zookeeper: As to the nightblade description I proposed on sunday - did you see it? I understand if it isn't up to your standards, but a response would be nice
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20150811 13:34:59< pydsigner>  I thought it was awesome
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20150811 13:41:21< vultraz> zookeeper: where?
20150811 13:41:23< vultraz> er
20150811 13:41:24< vultraz> aquileia: 
20150811 13:41:27< vultraz> not zookeeper sorry
20150811 13:41:56< aquileia> 20150809 12:57:21< aquileia> A blade in the dark, dripping with poison – for many orcish warlords the last thing they see. Due to their high fees, orcish nightblades specialize on 'resolving internal conflicts' and are rarely seen on the battlefield. Practice makes perfect, and few can rival them in that regard: They have long lost count of their victims, which admittedly isn't hard for an orc with only ten fingers.
20150811 13:42:19< vultraz> Shouldn't it be 'specialize in'
20150811 13:42:36< vultraz> Also, period after 'regard'
20150811 13:42:47< vultraz> Besides that, I like
20150811 13:47:04< aquileia> Thanks for correcting the preposition. I prefer the colon to a period, but defer to your judgement as I'm no native speaker
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20150811 14:03:40< zookeeper> aquileia, err, yeah, forgot to reply
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20150811 14:05:33< zookeeper> seems ok to me
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20150811 15:01:36< clotifoth> Hiya.
20150811 15:02:56< clotifoth> I had seen that there was a call for developers to help with Wesnoth from about a week ago
20150811 15:03:06< clotifoth> Is that still happening? What could I do to get involved?
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20150811 15:20:25< pydsigner> aquileia: Don't listen to him on the period
20150811 15:20:38< pydsigner> But I'd say it should probably be a semicolon
20150811 15:21:16< aquileia> Now we have three options ;)
20150811 15:21:27< aquileia> zookeeper: Do you want to be the swing vote?
20150811 15:22:11< pydsigner> It shouldn't be colon
20150811 15:23:10< vultraz> If it's a semi it then They should not be capitalized 
20150811 15:23:22< vultraz> IMO it's better as two sentences
20150811 15:24:00< pydsigner> Of course it wouldn't be capitalized.
20150811 15:24:35< pydsigner> But the two clauses are definitely related enough to not warrant a full stop.
20150811 15:24:36< pydsigner> http://www.gcsu.edu/writingcenter/colonrules.htm
20150811 15:24:58< pydsigner> ^ Support for semicolon over colon
20150811 15:25:53< pydsigner> Hmm
20150811 15:26:02< zookeeper> yeah i'd pick a semicolon too
20150811 15:26:36< pydsigner> Colon isn't as bad as I might have originally thought but I still prefer the semicolon I think
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20150811 15:27:39< vultraz> Alright, semi it is
20150811 15:28:22< pydsigner> Herm, actually I'm going to retract my suggestion of the semicolon
20150811 15:29:04< pydsigner> Re-studying the sentence indicates that the post-colon segment is an explanation.
20150811 15:29:33< vultraz> Implied 'since'?
20150811 15:29:44< pydsigner> Yes.
20150811 15:30:01< pydsigner> Rather than "moreover" or "thus"
20150811 15:30:20< pydsigner> Causality is flowing RTL rather than LTR
20150811 15:30:42< pydsigner> However I would replace the latter half with
20150811 15:31:17< pydsigner> They have long lost count of their victims, though that admittedly isn't hard for an orc with only ten fingers.
20150811 15:32:23< vultraz> Ehh
20150811 15:32:27< vultraz> I prefer the original
20150811 15:33:22< pydsigner> But there'
20150811 15:33:29< pydsigner> * there's a contrast there.
20150811 15:33:48< pydsigner> "They have long lost count of their victims, though that admittedly isn't too hard for an orc with only ten fingers."
20150811 15:34:49< vultraz> Bit better
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20150811 16:09:57< vultraz> Is that going to be committed, then?
20150811 16:11:00< zookeeper> you could do it!
20150811 16:12:30< vultraz> So we're going with pydsigner's last revision, and a period?
20150811 16:12:49< pydsigner> A period where?
20150811 16:13:26< vultraz> Instead of a colon
20150811 16:13:37< pydsigner> "A blade in the dark, dripping with poison – for many orcish warlords the last thing they see. Due to their high fees, orcish nightblades specialize in 'resolving internal conflicts' and are rarely seen on the battlefield. Practice makes perfect, and few can rival them in that regard: they have long lost count of their victims, though that admittedly isn't too hard for an orc with only ten fingers."
20150811 16:13:39< pydsigner> No.
20150811 16:14:07< vultraz> Alright, I'll use that
20150811 16:16:45< celticminstrel> Doesn't that have an implication that orcs can't count?
20150811 16:17:03< celticminstrel> I don't think I like that.
20150811 16:17:38< aquileia> Only that orcs are relatively dumb, and that's established canon
20150811 16:19:13< pydsigner> celticminstrel: Er, obviously they can count
20150811 16:19:17< celticminstrel> Why do they have to be relatively dumb?
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20150811 16:19:22< irker188> wesnoth: aquileia wesnoth:master 08d5d9c8e8a1 / data/core/units/orcs/Nightblade.cfg: Add nightblade unit description http://git.io/v38J9
20150811 16:19:24< pydsigner> ...As long as they have fingers
20150811 16:19:47< pydsigner> celticminstrel: That's a population average
20150811 16:20:00< pydsigner> Not a fixed reality
20150811 16:20:46< pydsigner> That's why when you get an orc with some smarts and some strength you end up with Zorlan/whoever invading Wesnoth
20150811 16:21:14< pydsigner> Or a great orcish leader like Kapou'e.
20150811 16:21:49< celticminstrel> Eh.
20150811 16:21:52< aquileia> And there's the shamen as well
20150811 16:21:54< irker188> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master ad881b5d0b5f / data/core/units/orcs/Nightblade.cfg: Formatting fixup for 08d5d9c8e8a1 http://git.io/v38Tt
20150811 16:22:04< celticminstrel> "shaman" is not an irregular noun.
20150811 16:22:17< vultraz> (no text or punctuation changes)
20150811 16:23:39< aquileia> oh, right, shamans
20150811 16:23:39< pydsigner> en-dash → em-dash?
20150811 16:23:56< vultraz> yeah
20150811 16:24:03< celticminstrel> And curly quotes.
20150811 16:24:15< vultraz> And the apostrophe 
20150811 16:24:47< celticminstrel> I feel that falls under the general header of "curly quotes".
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20150811 17:39:04< vultraz> hey
20150811 17:40:55< Elvish_Hunter> Hi
20150811 17:41:40< celticminstrel> Is there any particular reason why the sighting macro hasn't been rewritten to use a sighting event?
20150811 17:43:05< irker188> wesnoth: Elvish_Hunter wesnoth:master 7fa294368329 / data/tools/ (wesnoth/wmliterator.py wesnoth/wmltools.py wmlindent wmllint wmlscope): All main WML tools: replaced tabs with spaces http://git.io/v381l
20150811 17:43:07< irker188> wesnoth: Elvish_Hunter wesnoth:master d8478cbed15d / data/tools/wmllint: wmllint: replaced map and string.strip with list comprehension http://git.io/v3814
20150811 17:43:09< irker188> wesnoth: Elvish_Hunter wesnoth:master f099638b2684 / data/tools/wmllint: wmllint: replaced backticks with repr() http://git.io/v381B
20150811 17:43:21< celticminstrel> Aw, I like tabs better.
20150811 17:43:51< Elvish_Hunter> Except that mixing tabs and spaces on Python 3 yields a TabError...
20150811 17:44:20< celticminstrel> What I mean is, I would've done the opposite - replaced spaces with tabs.
20150811 17:46:15< zookeeper> celticminstrel, no particular reason. but that doesn't mean there isn't a particular reason why it shouldn't be.
20150811 17:46:52< zookeeper> so, short version: if you do it, make sure you know what you're doing. :p
20150811 17:47:26< vultraz> I proposed simply deprecating that macro
20150811 17:47:30< vultraz> It's really no longer needed
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20150811 17:47:56< celticminstrel> Yeah, deprecate it.
20150811 17:47:58< zookeeper> well that's what you always do :>
20150811 17:48:18< celticminstrel> But to me it also makes sense to make it directly use what's supposed to replace it.
20150811 17:48:49< vultraz> Why would you rewrite it in order to deprecate it?
20150811 17:49:25< celticminstrel> Well, I suppose if it's being deprecated, it doesn't really matter that much.
20150811 17:49:28< zookeeper> either deprecate or rewrite
20150811 17:49:52< vultraz> I vote for deprecate
20150811 17:50:17< celticminstrel> Sure.
20150811 17:50:26< zookeeper> make a note in the deprecation message that sighted events now work
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20150811 17:50:59< vultraz> That reminds me... I haven't added deprecation messages for any of the other ones :/
20150811 17:51:11< zookeeper> (and don't remove until for 1.15.0...)
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20150811 18:01:36< Elvish_Hunter> So, after some tests I can tell that wmllint, wmlscope and wmlindent can now run on Python 3, except for a few compatibiility breaking changes that I didn't yet implement
20150811 18:02:23< Elvish_Hunter> I'm talking about the different way to use the raise command in Py3, and the fact that the next() special method was renamed __next__()
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20150811 18:03:05< Elvish_Hunter> I guess that now I'll take a look at wmllint-1.4
20150811 18:03:54< celticminstrel> 1.4?
20150811 18:05:06< Elvish_Hunter> However, it'll be intersting to know if there's any script in data/tools that should be removed because it's unused
20150811 18:05:23< Elvish_Hunter> celticminstrel: yes. data/tools/wmllint-1.4
20150811 18:05:58< Elvish_Hunter> I'll need to apply there all the modifications that I did to the regular wmllint
20150811 18:06:11< celticminstrel> There's two wmllints?
20150811 18:06:16< Elvish_Hunter> Yep
20150811 18:06:19< celticminstrel> Why?
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20150811 18:07:44< Elvish_Hunter> Because the second contains some specific functions to lift pre-1.4 add-ons, which used to slow down wmllint and may conflict with some of the current rules
20150811 18:07:54< celticminstrel> Ahh.
20150811 18:14:44< Elvish_Hunter> Huh, it looks like the imgcheck script is broken
20150811 18:15:24< Elvish_Hunter> import Image should be from PIL import Image
20150811 18:16:54< Elvish_Hunter> I'm beginning to wonder if anyone ever tried to use it...
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20150811 18:24:40< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#7015 (master - f099638 : Elvish_Hunter): The build was broken.
20150811 18:24:40< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/75130856
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20150811 18:40:39< pydsigner> celticminstrel: In Python, you are supposed to use 4 spaces for indentation as per PEP 8
20150811 18:50:41< celticminstrel> I couldn't care less about PEP 8.
20150811 18:55:13< pydsigner> celticminstrel: You should.
20150811 18:55:45< pydsigner> [care more]
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20150811 19:11:02< zookeeper> hrhm. unit.cpp:2284 <- why is only description cleared, and not also description_inactive, name, name_inactive?
20150811 19:13:18< irker188> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 768a4181374d / data/core/macros/ (deprecated-utils.cfg event-utils.cfg): Deprecate ON_SIGHTING http://git.io/v34BC
20150811 19:13:28 * vultraz will add the messages as a batch
20150811 19:13:34< vultraz> s/as/in
20150811 19:14:33< Soliton> zookeeper: they didn't exist at the time or oversight?
20150811 19:15:36< zookeeper> Soliton, well it'd be a strange oversight, considering the equivalent ones for abilities are cleared a few lines below
20150811 19:15:54< zookeeper> i mean... i'm not saying i believe it's not a mistake :P
20150811 19:16:04< zookeeper> so i guess it's more of a rhetorical question
20150811 19:17:24< Soliton> check out the commits when those lines for abilities were added.
20150811 19:23:11< Soliton> looks like 10ebcf31fb53d34fc21bd797f49a404c52de0461 is it. which means it's been that way from the beginning. i'm guessing those keys didn't exist for specials back then.
20150811 19:28:03< zookeeper> yeah i just arrived at that commit
20150811 19:28:07< zookeeper> hilarious
20150811 19:28:31< Elvish_Hunter> Those keys *did* exist before that commit: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=AbilitiesWML&oldid=20641
20150811 19:29:05< zookeeper> and hilarious obviously because of the running joke related to who wrote it
20150811 19:30:11< Soliton> Elvish_Hunter: pff, everyone can write stuff in a wiki. :-P
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20150811 19:40:59< Elvish_Hunter> Soliton: yeah, especially when "everyone" is a former dev :-P
20150811 19:41:46< pydsigner> Heh
20150811 19:41:48< Elvish_Hunter> But seriously, checking the unit.hpp in the same revision confirms that the keys existed
20150811 19:42:05< Elvish_Hunter> So, they were either forgotten or deemed important
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20150811 19:55:37< celticminstrel> pydsigner: No thanks.
20150811 19:55:49< pydsigner> Why not?
20150811 19:55:59< celticminstrel> I'll style my code how I like it, not how some silly people say I should do it.
20150811 19:57:03< pydsigner> Guido van Rossum and the rest of the Python team ≠ "silly people"
20150811 19:57:25< celticminstrel> If they want to tell me how to style my code, then they're silly people.
20150811 20:01:00< jxanthony> celticminstrel: Using Python and being upset that you're being told to code a certain way?
20150811 20:01:20< jxanthony> You know you have to use indentation to delineate your logical blocks, right?
20150811 20:01:28< pydsigner> To be blunt: if you're an OSS developer ignoring the official guidelines on language style, you're a silly person
20150811 20:01:33< pydsigner> Also, what jxanthony said
20150811 20:02:09< celticminstrel> If you're not using indentation to delineate your logical blocks in any language, that's silly.
20150811 20:03:56< jxanthony> I thought you didn't want to be told how to write your code?
20150811 20:04:01< celticminstrel> I suppose PEP8 is a good start for people who don't understand how to make their code readable, but it makes completely arbitrary choices, so there's no particular reason to comply with the specific choices it makes.
20150811 20:04:12< celticminstrel> Style, not write.
20150811 20:04:42< celticminstrel> I'm talking about stuff that doesn't affect how the code executes, like tabs vs spaces, where you put your braces, how you name things.
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20150811 20:04:49< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#7016 (master - 768a418 : Charles Dang): The build has errored.
20150811 20:04:49< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/75144942
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20150811 20:05:01< jxanthony> I think you're picking the stuff you like and considering it essential, then picking the stuff you don't like and calling it arbitrary
20150811 20:05:12< celticminstrel> No.
20150811 20:05:33< celticminstrel> There is no particular reason to choose tabs over spaces or spaces over tabs. More important is to pick one and stick with it.
20150811 20:05:53< pydsigner> *That's why there's a PEP that says to use spaces*
20150811 20:05:59< celticminstrel> There is no particular reason to choose CamelCase vs underscore_separated naming conventions, but it's a good idea to pick one and stick with it.
20150811 20:06:07< celticminstrel> (For a given use, eg classes.)
20150811 20:06:11< jxanthony> I can think of some pretty legit reasons for the Python community to pick either tabs of spaces and stick to it, not least of which being that Python need them to be consistent
20150811 20:06:23< celticminstrel> Isn't that what I just said?
20150811 20:06:44< pydsigner> celticminstrel: So don't say, "I prefer tabs"
20150811 20:06:51< celticminstrel> I prefer tabs.
20150811 20:07:05< lipkab> I prefer pancakes.
20150811 20:07:16< pydsigner> I prefer waffles.
20150811 20:07:25< celticminstrel> Good example.
20150811 20:07:35< pydsigner> celticminstrel: Yeah no.
20150811 20:07:54< pydsigner> The PEP gives a very good reason to use spaces, in fact.
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20150811 20:08:08< pydsigner> And that is continuation lines.
20150811 20:08:27< celticminstrel> That's not really a good reason.
20150811 20:08:32< zookeeper> hard choice between pancakes and waffles. a bad waffle tends to be better than a bad pancake, but a good waffle vs good pancake?
20150811 20:08:35< celticminstrel> Just indent continuation lines with an extra tab, and it'll be fine.
20150811 20:09:10< pydsigner> celticminstrel: How many extra tabs?
20150811 20:09:12< celticminstrel> (I dislike the "align with opening delimiter" convention.)
20150811 20:09:28< celticminstrel> (Though I use it sometimes because it's easier than trying to force XCode to indent how I prefer.0
20150811 20:09:29< celticminstrel> ^)
20150811 20:09:58< pydsigner> Look: PEPs are *part of the language*.
20150811 20:10:09< celticminstrel> PEP8 is definitely not part of the language.
20150811 20:10:35< Elvish_Hunter> zookeeper: when in doubt, choose chocolate chip muffins :-P
20150811 20:11:13< zookeeper> Elvish_Hunter, ehh... i don't think so
20150811 20:12:14< pydsigner> How you write your code in the privacy of your home is your business, and I'm not going to rummage around and look for cruft.
20150811 20:12:46< pydsigner> But when you walk out into the public space of OSS, you need to follow the official style guide.
20150811 20:13:10< celticminstrel> Not really?
20150811 20:13:20< pydsigner> Just like when you're writing prose for Wesnoth, work has to go into making sure it's standards compliant, code needs to be the same way.
20150811 20:13:27< celticminstrel> When you walk into an existing project, you need to follow whatever style guide they follow (if any).
20150811 20:13:46< celticminstrel> But that doesn't mean that you absolutely have to use PEP8 in order to write OSS software in Python.
20150811 20:14:19< pydsigner> "Thus, programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute."
20150811 20:14:29< celticminstrel> I can agree with that.
20150811 20:14:57< pydsigner> PEP8 is to Python as S&W is English. Follow it.
20150811 20:15:14< celticminstrel> S&W?
20150811 20:15:23< pydsigner> Strunk and White
20150811 20:15:38< pydsigner> [not Smith and Wesson]
20150811 20:15:48< celticminstrel> There's no reason to follow Strunk and White, either.
20150811 20:16:23< celticminstrel> I don't know its contents, so there's probably some good things in it.
20150811 20:17:17< celticminstrel> There's probably also some arbitrary choices that could easily go another way while still being good style.
20150811 20:17:39< pydsigner> Of course, but that goes for *everything* in the world.
20150811 20:17:49< celticminstrel> I can't really disagree with anything in the last section of PEP8 (Programming Recommendations), but most of the rest is just arbitrary choices. Some of their arbitrary choices do include justification that rules out certain other choices.
20150811 20:18:05< pydsigner> Why do we write "public" rather than "publick"?
20150811 20:18:25< pydsigner> Why do we standardize spelling at all?
20150811 20:18:35< celticminstrel> PEP8 isn't about spelling though.
20150811 20:18:44< celticminstrel> It's higher-level than that.
20150811 20:20:04< celticminstrel> It's mainly about things for which the specific choices don't matter, but consistency of choice does.
20150811 20:22:59< celticminstrel> (S&W also isn't about spelling.)
20150811 20:25:36< pydsigner> I know that, I was turning to another analogy
20150811 20:28:06< celticminstrel> It doesn't look like the analogy applies.
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20150811 20:42:38< zookeeper> menu_events.obj : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol "public: static bool __cdecl gui2::tlabel_settings::execute(class display_context &,class CVideo &)"(?execute@tlabel_settings@gui2@@SA_NAAVdisplay_context@@AAVCVideo@@@Z)
20150811 20:52:34< vultraz> Weird... I just noticed terrain masks seem to get applied with a slightly offset in master
20150811 20:52:38< vultraz> test case, LoW...
20150811 20:52:53< vultraz> But it's using [terrain_mask], so it must be an engine problem
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20150811 21:06:12< irker188> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 8adbae8da1a8 / data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/ (5 files in 5 dirs): LoW: dropped commas before chapter titles http://git.io/v3BYz
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20150811 21:11:25< zookeeper> great, i borked my clone somehow -.-
20150811 21:11:33< celticminstrel> :(
20150811 21:11:34< zookeeper> or rather, git did it, not me
20150811 21:11:42< celticminstrel> How?
20150811 21:11:52< celticminstrel> Like what did you do.
20150811 21:16:22< zookeeper> ah, fixed it
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20150811 21:21:35< zookeeper> celticminstrel, are you sure your VC9 project file update is correct?
20150811 21:21:49< zookeeper> (from #447)
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20150811 21:22:22< celticminstrel> I think I basically copy-pasted an entry and modified it, so it's probably correct but I might've miscopied.
20150811 21:22:26 * celticminstrel goes to look.
20150811 21:23:27< celticminstrel> Well, if it's incorrect, I'd like to know how. I don't see anything wrong with it.
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20150811 22:29:57< irker188> wesnoth: aquileia wesnoth:master 5cf8cf2b320d / projectfiles/VC9/wesnoth.vcproj: vcproj: Fix File node from PR #447 http://git.io/v3B1I
20150811 22:32:14< aquileia> celticminstrel: I didn't notice the unclosed node either back when I looked at the PR.
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20150811 22:41:34< celticminstrel> Ah... okay then.
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--- Log closed Wed Aug 12 00:00:29 2015