--- Log opened Tue Aug 04 00:00:12 2015
20150804 00:01:10-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish.]
20150804 00:10:42-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150804 00:32:05-!- LuHa [~E330-Mint@119.204.77.86] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20150804 00:59:14< celticminstrel> I wish WML had a .wml extension instead of .cfg.
20150804 00:59:38< shadowm> Yeah.
20150804 00:59:52< shadowm> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Markup_Language
20150804 01:01:37-!- LuHa [~E330-Mint@168.188.129.209] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 01:03:00< celticminstrel> Hmm.
20150804 01:03:49-!- prkc [~prkc@catv-89-134-159-162.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150804 01:04:12< celticminstrel> Well, it doesn't have to be WML specifically. just... something less generic than .cfg. But the conflict with the other .wml might not really be an issue anyway.
20150804 01:06:04< celticminstrel> (Though there's actually a specific format associated with .cfg - the one with [sections] and key=value pairs used by eg PHP.)
20150804 01:10:56< shadowm> Changing that counts as a tier-1 compatibility-breaking change at this point.
20150804 01:15:04< celticminstrel> Yeah, if you wanted to change it you'd have to have a transitional period where both extensions are supported.
20150804 01:18:51-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 01:19:10-!- LuHa [~E330-Mint@168.188.129.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150804 01:23:25-!- Yserbius [60f48460@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.244.132.96] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 01:34:42< Aginor> .wes?
20150804 01:35:20< shadowm> .wsnth
20150804 01:36:35< Aginor> is that windows friendly?
20150804 01:37:11< shadowm> We are not in the MS-DOS-based Windows era anymore.
20150804 01:38:29-!- Appleman1234__ [~Appleman1@KD036012004141.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 01:38:37< aeth> .noth
20150804 01:38:39< shadowm> We've had long filenames since Windows 95 but most applications continued to try to stick to the 8.3 format for the sake of compatibility with MS-DOS mode and older Windows versions (esp. if you wanted to read your files on another computer e.g. at work).
20150804 01:38:53< aeth> Is Wesnoth still compatable with MS-DOS? :-p
20150804 01:39:30< shadowm> (I'm not sure if long filenames were supported by NT before 4.0.)
20150804 01:39:52< aeth> oh wow there's a Brotherhood of Light game going on right now that's at turn 265... and people complain that my maps take forever
20150804 01:40:22-!- Appleman1234_ [~Appleman1@KD111107185236.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20150804 01:40:23< shadowm> Windows Vista and later don't even install to non-NTFS volumes so for the most part you shouldn't need to worry about Unicode characters or long filenames in paths anymore unless you need to work with the boot load process which may have restrictions of its own.
20150804 01:41:56< aeth> more seriously, does Wesnoth run on Windows 9x?
20150804 01:42:06< shadowm> Not since 1.3.x.
20150804 01:42:10< aeth> ah
20150804 01:42:39< aeth> so I guess it wouldn't be bad to support both .cfg and .noth (or .wes or .wsnth or whatever) side by side
20150804 01:42:40< shadowm> Not without KernelEx, at least, which we don't officially support and I for one haven't heard any success stories.
20150804 01:42:43< aeth> .wesml?
20150804 01:42:57< aeth> .wesml just expands part of .wml so it's clear it's for Wesnoth
20150804 01:43:21< shadowm> Wesnoth 1.13.1 also drops support for Windows 2000 in a covert fashion.
20150804 01:43:38< aeth> 13 or 3?
20150804 01:43:40< celticminstrel> In a covert fashion?
20150804 01:43:56< shadowm> So odds are that killed any accidental compatibility we may have had with KernelEx.
20150804 01:44:26< shadowm> aeth: Both times I said the correct numbers without any typos.
20150804 01:44:36-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-161-229-81.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 01:44:43< aeth> I think that's fine, though. Anyone using Windows 9x for the Internet in 2015 is probably not going to be computer savvy enough to know about FOSS and/or is probably on some really backwards work computer
20150804 01:44:51< aeth> shadowm: I wasn't sure because you said "also"
20150804 01:45:07< aeth> shadowm: One of the ways to parse that sentence is to refer back to the version you were previously talking about
20150804 01:45:14< shadowm> Anyone using Windows 9x in 2015 needs urgent psychiatric help.
20150804 01:45:46< ancestral> Heh
20150804 01:45:53< aeth> The place I was working at in 2008 used Windows 2000 on Internet-connected computers. They probably kept on using it years later.
20150804 01:46:07< aeth> Users of the software don't always get to choose what they use.
20150804 01:46:21< aeth> Anyone *deciding* to use Windows 9x in 2015 needs help.
20150804 01:46:38< ancestral> Good point
20150804 01:46:40< shadowm> No-one would be forced to use 9x and be able to run games of any kind.
20150804 01:46:48< aeth> I'm sure there's probably some workplace somewhere that's using Windows 98 to keep compatability with some old application they still use. (Hopefully not Internet-connected.)
20150804 01:47:02< ancestral> How about some kid who was given a computer?
20150804 01:47:03< shadowm> They'd probably be fired if they were caught running any applications that weren't installed by the demented system admins.
20150804 01:47:20< ancestral> I suppose that’s a good reason to have an old OS
20150804 01:47:34< ancestral> Prevents your employees from playing games and going on Facebook
20150804 01:47:46< ancestral> (It also would hurt morale, but you know
20150804 01:47:52< aeth> Morale? what's that?
20150804 01:48:14< aeth> http://kotaku.com/report-konami-is-treating-its-staff-like-prisoners-1721700073
20150804 01:48:34< aeth> I wonder if *they* still use Windows 2000 (and yes I know it's not 9x, but I keep bringing it up because it's almost as old)
20150804 01:49:17< aeth> ancestral: btw I quickly added an area to the north as well as a way around
20150804 01:49:38< aeth> ancestral: That way the players can retreat if I accidentally (or on purpose) make the enemies at the other side of the bridge too hard
20150804 01:49:43< aeth> And just go around them
20150804 01:53:56-!- Yserbius [60f48460@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.244.132.96] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20150804 01:58:45< ancestral> Hmm
20150804 02:00:34-!- patwotrik [~patwotrik@nl118-172-202.student.uu.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150804 02:09:25-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-161-229-81.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150804 02:25:11-!- ArneBab [~quassel@55d400cf.access.ecotel.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 02:25:14-!- LuHa [~E330-Mint@168.188.129.209] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 02:28:10-!- ArneBab_ [~quassel@55d46b3d.access.ecotel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20150804 02:43:09-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 02:49:06-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish.]
20150804 03:20:41-!- DreadKnight [~DreadKnig@unaffiliated/dreadknight] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 03:37:19< aeth> anyone want to help test out my RPG?
20150804 03:47:06-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B009B16.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 04:16:22-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20150804 04:20:46-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-107-125-36.adr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20150804 04:22:36-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-107-125-36.adr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 04:22:59-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@124.109.10.167] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 04:22:59-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@124.109.10.167] has quit [Changing host]
20150804 04:22:59-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 04:26:18< aeth> Is GUI2 (the dialog stuff) MP safe without a download?
20150804 04:26:30< aeth> in Lua
20150804 04:26:47< shadowm> Only if you process the result with wesnoth.synchronize_choice.
20150804 04:27:11< shadowm> Not sure what "download" means in the context.
20150804 04:27:27< aeth> I don't want to require people downloading the add-on
20150804 04:28:24< shadowm> You can achieve that by including the Lua code in events instead of using w.dofile/w.require, yes.
20150804 04:28:57< shadowm> The code inclusion approach you use has no bearing on whether the code itself is replay/MP-safe or not.
20150804 04:30:11< aeth> Yes, I include Lua through events currently.
20150804 04:38:48< aeth> shadowm: I'm just wondering if I convert from [message] [option] to GUI 2 for my menus if I'll cause issues
20150804 04:38:59< aeth> I've been guessing and checking my way to basically clone the appearance of the menus
20150804 04:39:39< shadowm> Are you doing this for some specific reason?
20150804 04:39:48< aeth> yes
20150804 04:39:52< aeth> My mod is extremely complex
20150804 04:39:57< aeth> I want to simplify the interface
20150804 04:40:08< aeth> It's basically a playable debug mode RPG
20150804 04:40:27< shadowm> At the cost of having to reimplement part of the [message] UI logic, though.
20150804 04:41:11< vultraz> If it's an extremely complex addon you shouldn't worry about it being download-required
20150804 04:41:27-!- Xara2 [Yangyf@2001:cc0:2020:4010:814:b090:2e73:80db] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 04:41:37< shadowm> But yeah, I can't help you with MP stuff. I only know wesnoth.synchronize_choice is mandatory for handling GUI2 calls in Lua in a replay/MP-safe fashion.
20150804 04:41:38< aeth> vultraz: I shouldn't, but I haven't published it yet because it's only about 80% complete, and that last 20% might take weeks
20150804 04:41:52< aeth> shadowm: the thing is I'm forcing the [message] UI to do things it shouldn't do anyway
20150804 04:41:58< aeth> It's an RPG so it has lots of fancy menus
20150804 04:42:25< shadowm> AFAIK the function is basically a magic spell that makes it so the UI runs only on one client and then the result is saved in the replay data.
20150804 04:42:41< aeth> ah
20150804 04:43:01< shadowm> (Networked MP is essentially a glorified interactive networked replay, that's why "MP-safe" and "replay-safe" are mostly interchangeable in Wesnoth API talk.)
20150804 04:43:22< aeth> I like how it tells you to use synchronize_choice but it doesn't actually have it in the example code.
20150804 04:43:25< aeth> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML:Display#wesnoth.show_dialog
20150804 04:43:29-!- Appleman1234_ [~Appleman1@KD111107190017.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 04:43:39< aeth> shadowm: until someone rewrites the network code
20150804 04:43:56< aeth> shadowm: has anyone attempted yet since the call for help?
20150804 04:44:57-!- Xara [~Yangyf@210.77.22.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20150804 04:45:30< shadowm> The game controller logic needs to be redesigned from the ground up but I've not mentioned that anywhere public on purpose.
20150804 04:45:34-!- Appleman1234__ [~Appleman1@KD036012004141.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150804 04:46:12< shadowm> The low-level network code needs to be replaced and there's a NSEC task for that, but no-one taken it up yet and it has no bearing on high-level stuff like this.
20150804 04:46:18< shadowm> *'s taken
20150804 04:52:46< janebot> Tweet (by @Wesnoth) (RT @Argentum_Age) New card art: "Blessing of Endurance" by Lisa Nguyen. #gamedev #screenshotsaturday Bigger: http://imgur.com/0ijX0i1 http://… [ https://twitter.com/Wesnoth/status/628428337128603649 ]
20150804 04:56:06-!- hay207 [~hay207@41.34.12.122] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 05:05:13-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B009B16.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150804 05:05:38< aeth> it's complicated both GUI ways to do it
20150804 05:05:59< aeth> but I think GUI 2 winds up being marginally less complicated, perhaps only because the [message] code is some extremely complicated stuff from 3 years ago when I only knew Python well
20150804 05:07:28< aeth> I don't think it will really be simple unless I could do something like override what left click does, because you're allowed to change the terrain
20150804 05:07:35-!- agorecki [~agorecki@unaffiliated/agorecki] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20150804 05:12:07< aeth> OK, I think I finally figured out how to do the GUI2. It's kind of unnecessarily complicated, but hopefully I only have to do it once because I can wrap the non WML part in a function and just change the details with function arguments, hopefully not needing to change the WML table itself ever.
20150804 05:23:02-!- salluc69 [~lucky@host208-194-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via]
20150804 05:35:10< aeth> (The thing that confuses me the most is that I need to needlessly e.g. do T.row { T.column { ... } } for a row with one column when the column could just be made to be implicit if there's only one)
20150804 05:35:39-!- LuHa [~E330-Mint@168.188.129.209] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20150804 05:53:58-!- LuHa [~E330-Mint@175.246.204.196] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 05:59:49-!- LuHa [~E330-Mint@175.246.204.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20150804 06:02:31< aeth> omg... if I use GUI2 dialogs I can have the AI "play"
20150804 06:02:38< aeth> by giving it choices if not a player.
20150804 06:07:22-!- LuHa [~E330-Mint@168.188.129.209] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 06:30:27< aeth> oh my god it was way harder than I thought to add synchronize_choice. You have to apparently pass in a function that's not being called.
20150804 06:30:36< aeth> This is... advanced-level programming.
20150804 06:36:58-!- [Relic] [~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:a428:b081:a078:8eaf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150804 06:39:24-!- sfb [~quassel@2601:440:4000:afd7:a529:ecbc:ee44:9b84] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
20150804 06:40:41-!- sfb [~quassel@2601:440:4000:afd7:8c5a:3c24:8185:a6eb] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 06:42:46< aeth> I take back what I said about GUI2, it's easier to wrap in Lua than [message][option] etc.
20150804 06:42:52< aeth> *way* easier
20150804 06:43:03< aeth> Now if there's something like this for [set_menu_item]...
20150804 06:48:23-!- hay207 [~hay207@41.34.12.122] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150804 06:48:27-!- d347hm4n [~kde@host-92-16-56-202.as13285.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 06:48:46-!- hay207 [~hay207@41.34.12.122] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 06:49:40-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 07:02:54-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150804 07:08:11-!- rayblade53 [~chatzilla@124.109.10.167] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 07:09:09-!- rayblade53 is now known as vultraz
20150804 07:09:48-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@124.109.10.167] has quit [Changing host]
20150804 07:09:53-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 07:30:54-!- GGeneral [~GGeneral@nat3.opti.net.ua] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 07:58:44-!- knotwork_ [~markm@unaffiliated/knotwork] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 08:00:06-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20150804 08:00:15-!- knotwork [~markm@unaffiliated/knotwork] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20150804 08:02:39-!- agorecki [~agorecki@unaffiliated/agorecki] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 08:06:01-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 08:21:16-!- cpf [~cpf@ip-188-118-61-46.reverse.destiny.be] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 08:27:40< aeth> interesting, in GUI2, you can hit return to pick an option, but you can't use the arrow keys to go up/down through the list like in [message][option]
20150804 08:28:00< shadowm> You can, but the API for that is not exposed to Lua AFAIR.
20150804 08:31:11< aeth> ah
20150804 08:32:01-!- RatArmy [~fujimoto@240f:b3:88e3:1:2ab2:bdff:fe8e:cb1e] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 08:35:15-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Rhonda, shurnormal
20150804 08:37:37-!- Netsplit over, joins: Rhonda, shurnormal
20150804 08:42:44-!- shurnormal [~uxio@unaffiliated/ushiu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20150804 08:44:12-!- shurnormal [~uxio@unaffiliated/ushiu] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 08:45:49-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150804 09:06:25-!- UnwiseOwl [~Ted@124-169-219-239.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 09:11:00-!- RatArmy [~fujimoto@240f:b3:88e3:1:2ab2:bdff:fe8e:cb1e] has quit [Quit: RatArmy]
20150804 09:28:06-!- RatArmy [~fujimoto@ZB064123.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 09:43:06-!- GGeneral [~GGeneral@nat3.opti.net.ua] has left #wesnoth ["Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)"]
20150804 09:59:49-!- aquileia [95acd0d3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.172.208.211] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 10:00:30< aquileia> UnwiseOwl: If you don't mind, we'll switch over here so that we don't spam the #wesnoth-dev logs
20150804 10:00:48< UnwiseOwl> That's a fine plan.
20150804 10:01:02< aquileia> Did you install perl ? https://www.perl.org/get.html#win32
20150804 10:01:18< UnwiseOwl> Hrmm...when I commented out exit the brackets decided to hate me...
20150804 10:01:24< UnwiseOwl> Not yet, working on it now.
20150804 10:01:30< UnwiseOwl> (Thanks for this, by the way :) )
20150804 10:01:54< UnwiseOwl> Where is the best place to put it?
20150804 10:02:22< aquileia> Perl will add itself to the PATH variable, so just install it as any other program
20150804 10:03:11< UnwiseOwl> kk
20150804 10:07:02< UnwiseOwl> I blame Australian internet.
20150804 10:08:26-!- RatArmy [~fujimoto@ZB064123.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: RatArmy]
20150804 10:11:39< UnwiseOwl> Ok, got me a perl, now I just need them wmltools
20150804 10:13:49< aquileia> UnwiseOwl: You can either use the gettext tools (which will automate the process) or PoEdit
20150804 10:14:16-!- Appleman1234_ is now known as Appleman1234
20150804 10:14:20< UnwiseOwl> Which would you suggest for a low-level user?
20150804 10:16:02-!- agorecki [~agorecki@unaffiliated/agorecki] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150804 10:16:03< aquileia> PoEdit will help you to look at the files as well, so it's probably better for you
20150804 10:18:24< UnwiseOwl> Ok...have downloaded from poedit.net. Trying to get the installer package to do something...
20150804 10:18:34-!- patwotrik [~patwotrik@nl118-172-202.student.uu.se] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 10:19:36< UnwiseOwl> Ok, now have poedit.
20150804 10:20:13< aquileia> Commented out the exit in line 13 with '::' ?
20150804 10:20:39< UnwiseOwl> yup
20150804 10:20:59< aquileia> run the script - you should get a .pot file
20150804 10:21:56 * UnwiseOwl runs script. Gets nothing. Says something about unexpected ")"
20150804 10:22:15< UnwiseOwl> That message doesn't happen if I remove the comment on exit...
20150804 10:22:59< aquileia> remove everything after cd po/%domain% and retry
20150804 10:23:32< aquileia> and remove the  :: gettext dependency block
20150804 10:23:53< UnwiseOwl> kk
20150804 10:24:43< aquileia> Does it run now?
20150804 10:25:30< UnwiseOwl> The system cannot find the path specified.
20150804 10:25:34< UnwiseOwl> Getting closer :)
20150804 10:25:57< aquileia> Did you change set gettext_path=C:/GitHub/wesnoth/utils/wmlxgettext to your actual wesnoth dir?
20150804 10:26:46< UnwiseOwl> ...no.
20150804 10:26:48< UnwiseOwl> Crap.
20150804 10:26:51< UnwiseOwl> Hang on.
20150804 10:27:50< UnwiseOwl> That's the wesnoth dir or the userdata?
20150804 10:28:12< aquileia> wesnoth dir, then /utils/wmlxgettext
20150804 10:29:11< aquileia> You do have /utils in your wesnoth dir, right?
20150804 10:29:20< UnwiseOwl> I don't seem to?
20150804 10:29:57< aquileia> Would you mind if I go to dinner for an hour? This is going to take a little longer than expecten
20150804 10:30:00< UnwiseOwl> (Sorry if I make you cry!)
20150804 10:30:02< aquileia> *expected
20150804 10:30:12< UnwiseOwl> Of course not. Thanks for everything.
20150804 10:30:14< aquileia> ok
20150804 10:30:16< UnwiseOwl> See you later.
20150804 10:44:08-!- JackBauer24 [~JackBauer@89-76-206-248.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150804 10:53:34-!- Appleman1234_ [~Appleman1@KD111107184246.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 10:56:15-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD111107190017.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20150804 10:56:34< aquileia> UnwiseOwl: I'm back
20150804 10:57:29< UnwiseOwl> You still okay with helping? I realise whatever it is that I haven't done that I ought to have could be quite large...
20150804 10:58:29< aquileia> Download https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/utils/wmlxgettext (right click on the 'Raw' button, save as)
20150804 10:59:03-!- RatArmy [~fujimoto@ZB064123.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 11:00:25< UnwiseOwl> Don't get a save as, option, just a save link as, I assume that will do.
20150804 11:01:34< aquileia> Yes (my browser isn't set to English, so I guessed what it'd be called)
20150804 11:02:05< UnwiseOwl> ok, anywhere in particular, and what file extension?
20150804 11:02:31< aquileia> Wherever you want, but the original location would be wesnoth-dir/utils/
20150804 11:02:54< aquileia> Don't add a file extension, it'll work without
20150804 11:04:18< UnwiseOwl> argle...permissions error, what the hell? Gimme a sec.
20150804 11:05:04< UnwiseOwl> ok
20150804 11:05:21< aquileia> Now change the path in the script to point to it
20150804 11:06:08< UnwiseOwl> Yep.
20150804 11:06:27< aquileia> run the script
20150804 11:07:24< UnwiseOwl> Doesn't like the path.
20150804 11:07:36< UnwiseOwl> Maybe the spaces in the default path?
20150804 11:07:55< aquileia> Add " " around it and retry?
20150804 11:08:03< UnwiseOwl> Yeah, on it.
20150804 11:09:31-!- Appleman1234_ is now known as Appleman1234
20150804 11:10:28< UnwiseOwl> Still does not like.
20150804 11:11:51< UnwiseOwl> Looks like this: http://pastebin.com/tT2Hr9Ks
20150804 11:16:18< aquileia> UnwiseOwl: try http://pastebin.com/ifET5XfH
20150804 11:18:58< aquileia> This time, the window won't disappear before you press a key, so if something is amiss, you get more feedback
20150804 11:19:35< UnwiseOwl> Yeah, trying to make sense of the many errors.
20150804 11:19:44< UnwiseOwl> Gotta be a path thingy...
20150804 11:20:03< aquileia> Paste them on pastebin?
20150804 11:20:34-!- RatArmy [~fujimoto@ZB064123.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: RatArmy]
20150804 11:20:59< UnwiseOwl> Cannot paste from default cmd...
20150804 11:20:59-!- RatArmy [~fujimoto@240f:b3:88e3:1:2ab2:bdff:fe8e:cb1e] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 11:22:57< aquileia> you can - right click, choose select, left click and hold on the first letter, stop holding on the last letter, right click
20150804 11:23:17< aquileia> it'll show you a white rectangle for your selection
20150804 11:23:17< UnwiseOwl> ...I never knew that.
20150804 11:24:11< UnwiseOwl> http://pastebin.com/X15wSJRV
20150804 11:24:24< UnwiseOwl> That's a trick I should have learnt...10 years ago.
20150804 11:24:31< UnwiseOwl> Or just googled, dammit.
20150804 11:26:24< aquileia> In front of the 'not exist' lines, an 'if' is missing - sorry, didn't notice
20150804 11:27:11< aquileia> also, move the script one directory down to add-ons\Tale_of_Vaniyera
20150804 11:29:03< UnwiseOwl> Sorry, where was the 'if' missing?
20150804 11:29:16< UnwiseOwl> Looks like they both have one...
20150804 11:30:45< aquileia> Ok, remove both lines and create the po/wesnoth-Tale_of_Vaniyera directory manually (sorry, I really don't know what it is complaining about with these lines...)
20150804 11:31:27< UnwiseOwl> No need to apologise. I REALLY appreciate all the help I can get.
20150804 11:33:46< UnwiseOwl> I think it's complaining about spaces in the userdata file path.
20150804 11:33:56< UnwiseOwl> Which is the default for windows...
20150804 11:34:55< UnwiseOwl> http://pastebin.com/ydeVLceA
20150804 11:36:09< aquileia> Yes, it's the space (yet another bug in my script you helped me spot)
20150804 11:36:46< UnwiseOwl> A pleasure if I helped at all :)
20150804 11:37:08< aquileia> hang on a sec, I'll have to read the doc of  'for' on how to specify delimiters...
20150804 11:37:23< UnwiseOwl> No worries. I'll put the kettle on.
20150804 11:42:22< aquileia> UnwiseOwl: Could you try for /f "delims=<tab>" (add the delims parameter)
20150804 11:43:47< UnwiseOwl> Just add that line with the other for /f s?
20150804 11:44:10< aquileia> for /f "delims=<tab>" %%G in ('dir /b /s *.cfg') do set files=!files! %%G
20150804 11:44:22< aquileia> and the same treatment for the line below that
20150804 11:46:05< UnwiseOwl> Don't think that worked. Seems to kill at 'documen' instead of getting to 'documents/my'
20150804 11:46:13< UnwiseOwl> Want the cmd output?
20150804 11:46:29< aquileia> I'm an idiot
20150804 11:47:03< aquileia> Just use "delims=" (remove the <tab>)
20150804 11:47:39< aquileia> I forgot it'd parse <tab> as t, a, or b
20150804 11:49:08< UnwiseOwl> Well, it made a .pot file, but it's empty. http://pastebin.com/3NG8H7Fq
20150804 11:49:10< aquileia> UnwiseOwl: for /f "delims=" %%G in ('dir /b /s *.cfg') do set files=!files! "%%G"               for /f "delims=" %%G in ('dir /b /s *.lua') do set files=!files! "%%G"
20150804 11:50:36< aquileia> \\ Additional " " around %%G
20150804 11:50:44< UnwiseOwl> Seems like a similar issue as without the quotes.
20150804 11:51:15< aquileia> Could I get the cmd output now?
20150804 11:51:39< UnwiseOwl> C:\Users\Ben\Documents\My Games\Wesnoth1.12\data\add-ons\Tale_of_Vaniyera>for /F  "delims=" %G in ('dir /b /s *.lua') do set files=!files! %G File Not Found
20150804 11:51:47< UnwiseOwl> Ah, yeah, whole thing coming up...
20150804 11:52:31< UnwiseOwl> http://pastebin.com/sXz7KS4t
20150804 11:55:08< aquileia> Can't open perl script "C:/Program Files (x86)/Battle for Wesnoth 1.12.4/utils/wmlxgettext" -- make sure the location is typo-free
20150804 11:56:35< UnwiseOwl> sure is.
20150804 11:57:01< UnwiseOwl> C:\Program Files (x86)\Battle for Wesnoth 1.12.4\utils\ is the windows file path
20150804 11:57:30< UnwiseOwl> Wait.
20150804 11:57:47< UnwiseOwl> Got it.
20150804 11:57:57< aquileia> What?
20150804 11:58:58< UnwiseOwl> I've saved the file as a .txt somehow...
20150804 11:59:16< aquileia> change that to .pl and change it in the script
20150804 12:00:41< UnwiseOwl> hang on, pc is freaking on me...
20150804 12:06:29< UnwiseOwl> Right, sorry about that.
20150804 12:06:38< UnwiseOwl> Windex hates me at the moment.
20150804 12:06:51< UnwiseOwl> aquileia: Output is here: http://pastebin.com/3diPHvPj
20150804 12:07:09< UnwiseOwl> and I have a pot file with content :)
20150804 12:08:32< aquileia> UnwiseOwl: Tale_of_Vaniyera\scenarios\1_Ambush.cfg:154
20150804 12:08:45< aquileia> expected closed node 'event' got 'endlevel'
20150804 12:09:40< aquileia> So there's either something amiss in that scenario or you close that event in an obscure way
20150804 12:09:55< UnwiseOwl> Hrmmm....must be something else, that event looks fine.
20150804 12:10:25< UnwiseOwl> Well, my wml is famously poor, but...seems okay.
20150804 12:10:32< aquileia> :154 means that the event was somewhere before that line, could be anywhere in that file
20150804 12:10:51< UnwiseOwl> Yeah...it runs, but I could have made any number of mistakes.
20150804 12:12:09< aquileia> Well, I can't diagnose a scenario without seeing, so onwards with the translation
20150804 12:12:18< UnwiseOwl> Well, I have a pol file, so I think you've gone above and beyond...I can probably work to try and clear ongoing issues with the scenario.
20150804 12:12:42< aquileia> Open the .pot file with PoEdit
20150804 12:12:56< UnwiseOwl> Yep :)
20150804 12:14:36< aquileia> Translators want a .po file, which is basically the same except that it has a line like  "Language: de\n"
20150804 12:15:14< UnwiseOwl> Just create it using PoEdit if anyone ever asks to translate it?
20150804 12:15:37< aquileia> PoEdit shows you a yellow message to set the language - set it to the correct language code and 'save as' e.g. de.po
20150804 12:15:53< UnwiseOwl> yep.
20150804 12:16:44< aquileia> Also, PoEdit lets you 'compile to mo' (file menu) which is the format you have to ship with the campaign
20150804 12:17:33< UnwiseOwl> How do I do that?
20150804 12:18:42< aquileia> Tale_of_Vaniyera\translations\de\LC_MESSAGES\wesnoth-Tale_of_Vaniyera.mo
20150804 12:18:57< UnwiseOwl> Found it.
20150804 12:18:59< aquileia> is where you have to place the German (de) mo file
20150804 12:19:26< UnwiseOwl> Alright.
20150804 12:19:35< UnwiseOwl> Thanks. I owe you a beer.
20150804 12:20:22< aquileia> Each time a translator sends you a .po file, you just convert to .mo and place it in the translations dir
20150804 12:20:31< aquileia> UnwiseOwl: No problem
20150804 12:22:25< UnwiseOwl> Have a good...day? night? One of those.
20150804 12:22:46< aquileia> afternoon in my case
20150804 12:22:58< DeFender> it's 5:00 somewhere...
20150804 12:23:18< UnwiseOwl> Cheers.
20150804 12:23:19< aquileia> Good luck with finding the issue in scenario 1
20150804 12:23:35< UnwiseOwl> (and all the others past that, no doubt! :) )
20150804 12:26:57-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150804 12:37:41-!- minna [~minn@65.78.41.113] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 12:39:43-!- d347hm4n [~kde@host-92-16-56-202.as13285.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150804 12:40:59-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 12:42:27-!- minna [~minn@65.78.41.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20150804 12:45:01-!- d347hm4n [~kde@host-92-16-56-202.as13285.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 12:45:25-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150804 13:42:55-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-161-229-81.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 14:02:27-!- JackBauer24 [~JackBauer@89-76-206-248.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 14:03:29-!- RatArmy [~fujimoto@240f:b3:88e3:1:2ab2:bdff:fe8e:cb1e] has quit [Quit: RatArmy]
20150804 14:11:32-!- localuser- [~none@unaffiliated/localuser-] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
20150804 14:12:53-!- localuser- [~none@unaffiliated/localuser-] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 14:13:13-!- [Relic] [~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:d8c7:2895:e0e8:9439] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 14:19:51-!- LuHa1 [~E330-Mint@168.188.129.78] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 14:23:56-!- LuHa [~E330-Mint@168.188.129.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20150804 14:26:07-!- Xara2 [Yangyf@2001:cc0:2020:4010:814:b090:2e73:80db] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150804 14:46:41-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B009B16.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 14:56:59-!- prkc [~prkc@catv-89-134-159-162.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 15:03:41< aquileia> UnwiseOwl: Could you retry with https://github.com/aquileia/Anabasis/blob/master/po/po.cmd and only change lines 9 & 11, please? I incorporated your feedback and would like to know whether the problems are fixed now
20150804 15:04:28< UnwiseOwl> Aquileia: no probs.
20150804 15:12:26< aquileia> I'll make one last addition later on, but that's unrelated to you (I want to issue a warning if someone doesn't change wesnoth-Anabasis to their own textdomain)
20150804 15:13:42< UnwiseOwl> ...got another link to the wmlxtools file? I blame it being late for the stupid thing that I just did :/
20150804 15:13:44< aquileia> UnwiseOwl: Did it work?
20150804 15:14:30< aquileia> [12:58] <aquileia> Download https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/utils/wmlxgettext (right click on the 'Raw' button, save as)
20150804 15:14:57< aquileia> extension .pl
20150804 15:16:04 * celticminstrel wonders what this is.
20150804 15:18:10< aquileia> celticminstrel: I wrote a script to generate the .pot/.po/.mo files that UMC translators need (Wescamp has been stale for a year now, so I needed an alternative)
20150804 15:18:18< UnwiseOwl> I got problems.
20150804 15:18:36< aquileia> paste?
20150804 15:18:36< UnwiseOwl> Trying to work out if it's my own incompetence or the script...
20150804 15:18:51-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 15:20:19< UnwiseOwl> http://pastebin.com/fcB9e8zN
20150804 15:22:04< aquileia> The first one (line 1-4) is intended, the second one (5-6) isn't, the 7th line is just so that the console doesn't close
20150804 15:23:06< aquileia> Ah, found the error - thanks, UnwiseOwl!
20150804 15:23:07< UnwiseOwl> It didn't make a pot file, either.
20150804 15:23:14< UnwiseOwl> Any time.
20150804 15:23:31< UnwiseOwl> (If you're willing to wait for me to fluff around).
20150804 15:23:48< aquileia> Could you put " " around the message in line 51 and retry, please?
20150804 15:23:55< UnwiseOwl> Sure.
20150804 15:25:04< UnwiseOwl> echo "or use e.g. PoEdit to generate .po & .mo file"?
20150804 15:25:17< aquileia> yes
20150804 15:26:15< UnwiseOwl> Looks good.
20150804 15:26:31< UnwiseOwl> Just those intended lines.
20150804 15:26:31< UnwiseOwl> No .pol output, though.
20150804 15:27:06< aquileia> Did you look in the po/wesnoth-* dir?
20150804 15:28:08< UnwiseOwl> Yeah..pn;y gpt the test po files I made earlier.
20150804 15:28:12< UnwiseOwl> *only got
20150804 15:28:50< aquileia> Please comment out line 4 (@echo off) and rerun, then paste the output
20150804 15:29:59< UnwiseOwl> http://pastebin.com/Qb0V9wRf
20150804 15:30:20< celticminstrel> Oh.
20150804 15:30:49< celticminstrel> Wait, it's a batch script?
20150804 15:30:55< aquileia> Yes
20150804 15:31:02< celticminstrel> Not so useful, then...
20150804 15:31:31< celticminstrel> I have a bash script that uses wmlxgettext.
20150804 15:31:33< aquileia> celticminstrel: For Unix there's already the official mainline script
20150804 15:31:56< celticminstrel> Hm?
20150804 15:31:57< UnwiseOwl> Well, it (was) working for me...so a little useful. :)
20150804 15:32:15< celticminstrel> Do you mean wmlxgettext?
20150804 15:33:08< aquileia> UnwiseOwl: Add 'pause' between line 37 & 38, then post the output of the second half (it'll ask to press a key twice)
20150804 15:33:36< aquileia> celticminstrel: mainline uses a wrapper for wmlxgettext, just like we both do
20150804 15:33:43< celticminstrel> Ah.
20150804 15:33:46< UnwiseOwl> can do.
20150804 15:36:04< UnwiseOwl> Ok, that worked... did I just not hit return earlier?
20150804 15:36:18-!- UnwiseOwl [~Ted@124-169-219-239.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #wesnoth []
20150804 15:36:57< aquileia> celticminstrel: Would you mind pasting your bash script? I'm interested to see how you handled the task
20150804 15:37:17-!- UnwiserOwl [~Ted@124-169-219-239.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 15:37:20< celticminstrel> It might be overspecialized to my campaign, but sure.
20150804 15:37:27< UnwiserOwl> http://pastebin.com/fm5XMnx5
20150804 15:38:47< celticminstrel> It's not very interesting, to be honest.
20150804 15:40:08< celticminstrel> http://pastebin.com/DeU2cWdx
20150804 15:40:39< aquileia> UnwiserOwl, celticminstrel: Thanks!
20150804 15:40:50< UnwiserOwl> Ok. Goodnight all.
20150804 15:41:04< aquileia> UnwiserOwl: I found another (minor) bug thanks to you
20150804 15:41:10< aquileia> Good night
20150804 15:41:33< UnwiserOwl> Cheers.
20150804 15:41:37< celticminstrel> Like I said, mine is not very interesting, right?
20150804 15:43:17< aquileia> celticminstrel: It might not be interesting, but it definitely is a lot more readable than the mainline one I had to crawl through to understand what to do - if I had seen it half a year ago, it'd have saved me a lot of time
20150804 15:43:43< celticminstrel> Where is this mainline one anyway?
20150804 15:44:06< celticminstrel> In utils/?
20150804 15:44:25 * celticminstrel is looking at the github repo page.
20150804 15:45:39-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-161-229-81.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150804 15:45:40-!- UnwiserOwl [~Ted@124-169-219-239.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150804 15:45:42< celticminstrel> ... "Some portions of the source code can be used under different license terms, whenever stated as such in the source."
20150804 15:45:46< celticminstrel> That sounds super-complicated.
20150804 15:45:48< aquileia> po/wesnoth/FINDCFG , /utils/wescamp_import , po/SConscript
20150804 15:46:09< celticminstrel> ...I suppose that just means they can be used under either GPL or something else, but still, why...
20150804 15:46:35< celticminstrel> I'm not really sure why my script doesn't have a -print in it.
20150804 15:47:44< aeth> Is there a way to get a data structure into WML that is like a list or array but without setting it as a (global?) variable first?
20150804 15:47:49< aeth> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/VariablesWML#Array
20150804 15:48:01< aeth> like the second syntax but instead of [set_variables] name =, just the [value] stuff
20150804 15:48:37< aeth> e.g. [array] [value] x = 10 [/value] [value] x = 10 [/value] [/array]
20150804 15:48:44< celticminstrel> I don't really see what good that would be expected to do.
20150804 15:48:58< aeth> celticminstrel: User Interface
20150804 15:49:24< aeth> celticminstrel: A simple user interface defined in WML would just expose a list, which can then be one-lined with a macro so e.g. {VALUE 10}
20150804 15:49:36-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has left #wesnoth []
20150804 15:49:49< celticminstrel> So are you saying you want a macro that selects a value from a list?
20150804 15:50:25< aeth> obviously there'd be newlines for readability but: [special_menu] description = "Pick a wose." [list] {VALUE "Wose"} {VALUE "Elder Wose"} {VALUE "Ancient Wose"} [/list] [/special_menu]
20150804 15:50:42< aeth> Lua would use GUI2 to turn that into a GUI that lets you pick a wose.
20150804 15:51:26< celticminstrel> I'm guessing that WML is not the format that GUI2 takes.
20150804 15:51:37< aeth> I've found that in most of my interfaces once I've cleaned them up, the only thing that the user actually needs to define is a list, and unfortunately that's something the key/value WML does poorly.
20150804 15:51:57< aeth> celticminstrel: the GUI *is* defined in WML, but the fanciness doesn't have to be.
20150804 15:52:11< celticminstrel> If you're working with that WML table yourself, then you can do things however you want, right?
20150804 15:52:22< celticminstrel> What you posted is valid WML, at least.
20150804 15:52:28< aeth> celticminstrel: https://github.com/Aethaeryn/wesnoth-umc/blob/88522d3a94106e83135430549dd891c93925f29b/Master_of_Dungeons/lua/gui2.lua
20150804 15:52:43< celticminstrel> (Assuming {VALUE n} expands to [value][x={n}[/value] or similar)
20150804 15:53:02< aeth> Assuming I'm using the dialog stuff properly in an MP-safe way (I haven't MP-tested it yet) almost all the time it can just take in a list and infer the rest.
20150804 15:53:35< aeth> [my_menu] image = "path" description = "description" title = "title" [/my_menu]
20150804 15:53:39< aeth> the problem is the list input part is hard.
20150804 15:53:45< aeth> In Lua it's just {"foo", "bar", "baz"}
20150804 15:54:25< aeth> celticminstrel: the problem is I didn't post valid WML, in WML you have to give it a variable name.
20150804 15:54:35< celticminstrel> You're wrong.
20150804 15:54:50< celticminstrel> In ActionWML, the set_variable action takes an action name.
20150804 15:55:04< aeth> It would have to be osmething like [my_menu] image = "path" description = "description" title = "title" array = $array_name [/my_menu]
20150804 15:55:26< aeth> action name, whatever
20150804 15:55:32< celticminstrel> You can put anything you want inside [my_menu].
20150804 15:55:40< celticminstrel> Sorry, I meant to say variable name. Whoops.
20150804 15:56:02< celticminstrel> The point is, your context is not ActionWML. Your context is the interior of [my_menu].
20150804 15:56:24< celticminstrel> What you posted is syntactically valid WML. Thus, you can put it in the interior of [my_menu] and access it from Lua.
20150804 15:56:32< celticminstrel> If you use the syntax you posted, I believe you'd access it in Lua something like "table.list.value[n]".
20150804 15:57:21< celticminstrel> (Where "table" is the name of a variable holding the WML table generated from the [special_menu] tag.)
20150804 15:57:45< aeth> *oh*
20150804 15:57:48< aeth> I see what you're saying
20150804 15:57:59< aeth> list is valid WML so I can just put it in [my_menu]
20150804 15:58:07< celticminstrel> Yes.
20150804 15:58:11< aeth> or [special_menu] or whatever
20150804 16:11:10< aeth> Please never change the ancient lich portrait. I like the pointing to the right.
20150804 16:12:12< aeth> https://i.imgur.com/BHOtKMN.jpg
20150804 16:12:18< aeth> very useful for menus
20150804 16:12:35< aeth> It reminds people to pay attention to the menus on the right.
20150804 16:12:49< celticminstrel> Well, if they do change it, you could always copy it into your add-on.
20150804 16:12:58< aeth> yes, I'm joking anyway, that was accidental
20150804 16:13:14< celticminstrel> ?
20150804 16:13:17< aeth> the pointing
20150804 16:13:20< aeth> https://i.imgur.com/BHOtKMN.jpg
20150804 16:13:50< celticminstrel> Why'd you post the same link twice?
20150804 16:13:58< aeth> I thought you missed the image
20150804 16:14:01< aeth> sorry
20150804 16:14:05< celticminstrel> Oh.
20150804 16:14:08< aeth> I thought ? was "what?"
20150804 16:14:12< aeth> i.e. what are you talking about
20150804 16:14:44< celticminstrel> Well, you weren't exactly wrong about the the ? was, I guess.
20150804 16:33:24< aquileia> aeth: No worries, that's one of LordBob's latest portraits - unless there's a drastic change to the portrait specifications, it won't be replaced
20150804 16:34:26< aquileia> And completely replacing all portraits would be massive enough to skip 2.0 and go straight to 3.0 ;)
20150804 16:34:39< aeth> a portrait coup :o
20150804 16:34:55< aeth> how major would the change be? would they all be screenshots of 3D renders or something?
20150804 16:35:03< aeth> that would... change the game
20150804 16:35:15< aquileia> screenshots? pah - rotatable 3D models!
20150804 16:35:23< aeth> aquileia: with voice acting
20150804 16:35:39< aeth> so calling that portrait of the ancient lich actually gets him to say "mwahahaha" every time you go there
20150804 16:36:02< aquileia> there's actually a campaign using voiced story screens - The Altaz Mariners
20150804 16:36:15< aeth> That sounds like a nightmare to translate
20150804 16:37:00< aquileia> Not as long as you can just use 'silence.ogg' ;)
20150804 16:38:27 * aquileia wonders whether a voice cast for a mainline campaign would be  feasible...
20150804 16:39:07< aeth> translators would probably block it, as would anyone concerned about quality
20150804 16:39:13< aeth> Wesnoth doesn't have the budget to hire voice actors
20150804 16:39:14< aquileia> probably not while we're refactoring the game and campaigns under it...
20150804 16:39:27< aeth> Also, yeah, the dialog would have to be set in stone
20150804 16:39:39< aeth> So it'd have to be a tiny campaign with not much dialog that would never be touched
20150804 16:39:48< aeth> Unless you did it with voice generation
20150804 16:39:50< aquileia> aeth: There are volunteer projects out there with semi-professional voice actors (mostly Skyrim mods)
20150804 16:39:57< aeth> You could do it like a screen reader.
20150804 16:40:13< aeth> I think what I want to see in Wesnoth as far as audio goes is something like e.g. mumble integration
20150804 16:40:19< aeth> Some way to get (optional) voice chat
20150804 16:40:28< aeth> It's hard to go back to text in games when I'm used to voice chat.
20150804 16:40:28-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B009B16.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150804 16:41:10< aquileia> aeth: I'm pretty sure the server couldn't handle it - better to use an external tool in the background
20150804 16:41:25< aeth> voice chat + simultaneous (at least same team) turns (i.e. an algorithm that solves move conflicts and a new way the MP server works) = faster Wesnoth MP games
20150804 16:41:33< celticminstrel> I think vocal synthesis for languages other than English, French, Japanese, and a few others is hard to come by. So, translatability isn't so good.
20150804 16:41:54< celticminstrel> (And fully synthetic voices don't sound as good.)
20150804 16:42:28< aquileia> celticminstrel: Translationg the voice files would be fully optional, of course - the text would always be displayed along with it
20150804 16:42:51< aeth> voice chat + simultaneous (at least same team) turns (i.e. an algorithm that solves move conflicts and a new way the MP server works) = faster Wesnoth MP games
20150804 16:43:17< celticminstrel> I don't really care for voice chat.
20150804 16:43:25< aeth> celticminstrel: in theory, voice synthesis solves the translation problem because now it's just a library issue... although yes voice synthesis in minor languages is terrible, like 30 years ago level of terrible
20150804 16:43:26< aquileia> But the fact that we're speaking about Wesnoth 3.0 is telling as to how feasible it is
20150804 16:43:28< celticminstrel> Not that I've tried it.
20150804 16:43:46< aeth> aquileia: Yes, I mean integrate with the only popular third party gaming voice chat that's FOSS, mumble.
20150804 16:43:50< aeth> (The other two aren't FOSS afaik)
20150804 16:43:55< celticminstrel> Yes, especially if you want actually decent voice synthesis based on sampled phonemes.
20150804 16:44:13< aeth> aquileia: i.e. the server can't handle it so use mumble
20150804 16:44:27< aeth> http://wiki.mumble.info/wiki/Main_Page
20150804 16:46:00< celticminstrel> I also don't know of any FOSS vocal synthesis software.
20150804 16:46:39< celticminstrel> But when I was looking it was for singing; speech should be easier, so there might be some.
20150804 16:47:31< aeth> actually it looks like the only thing that would need to be coded is positional audio, which obviously Wesnoth doesn't need: http://wiki.mumble.info/wiki/Link
20150804 16:47:42< aeth> Except I guess maybe you could have positional audio
20150804 16:47:49< aeth> Just assume you're speaking from your leader unit
20150804 16:48:27< aeth> celticminstrel: There's at least two, I'm guessing, unless KDE and GNOME both use the same library in their accessibility software
20150804 16:48:36< aeth> not sure how they compare to commercial offerings, probably poorly
20150804 16:48:49< celticminstrel> Yeah, makes sense that speech synthesis is more common than singing synthesis.
20150804 16:48:54< aeth> FOSS tends to not do well when you require things other than just source code
20150804 16:49:09< celticminstrel> Heh.
20150804 16:49:17< aeth> Yes, I realize the irony of saying that in #wesnoth
20150804 16:50:46-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 16:53:22-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
20150804 16:53:27< celticminstrel> Why is there Java in the repo?
20150804 16:54:05-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 16:54:31-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150804 16:54:37< aquileia> celticminstrel: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/search?l=java
20150804 16:55:04< celticminstrel> Yeah, looks like some testing and some UMC stuff...
20150804 16:55:16< celticminstrel> Oh wait, that's not the Eclipse thing is it?
20150804 16:55:21< aeth> celticminstrel: The repo is one giant collection of everything
20150804 16:55:30< aeth> celticminstrel: Including e.g. the eclipse stuff probably
20150804 16:55:39< aeth> imo all that stuff should be spun off now that there's a wesnoth group on github
20150804 16:56:02< aeth> More Unix philosophyish to put thing in its own repo
20150804 16:56:12< celticminstrel> The Eclipse stuff certainly. Anything actually distributed with the game makes sense in the same repo, as well as tools related to the build process.
20150804 16:56:23< aeth> obviously the tools make sense
20150804 16:56:30< aeth> although really
20150804 16:56:32< celticminstrel> But I thought the Eclipse stuff was a third-party thing.
20150804 16:56:41< aeth> celticminstrel: you can embed other repos in a repo iirc, I've never tried it but I've seen it before
20150804 16:56:52-!- Panda_ [~IMO@2a01:e35:8aae:fcb0:a6fd:e761:fbcd:cbc2] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 16:57:01< aeth> So you could e.g. have a wesnoth/wesnoth-data repository that is included as the data directory in wesnoth/wesnoth
20150804 16:57:08 * celticminstrel blinks.
20150804 16:57:12< celticminstrel> What the heck is misc/ for?
20150804 16:57:29< celticminstrel> aeth: Yes, that's called "submodule", I believe. I've done it.
20150804 16:57:34< aeth> celticminstrel: attic should be removed, misc should be spun off, the IDE stuff should be spun off.
20150804 16:57:35< aquileia> celticminstrel: misc and attic serve the purpose to be
20150804 16:57:48< aeth> celticminstrel: all of that is legacy of using one big SVN repo for everything imo
20150804 16:58:47< aeth> celticminstrel: even the wesnoth/po stuff could be its own repository, since it's so clearly different from the rest of Wesnoth that you don't need commit access to all of wesnoth/wesnoth to be a translator and vice versa
20150804 16:58:59< celticminstrel> Makes sense.
20150804 16:59:19< celticminstrel> Moving it to its own repo would obfuscate history though, wouldn't it?
20150804 16:59:25< aeth> The tools are there in Github, it's just not being used (I guess because they want to preserve history and that would be tricky? e.g. commits that edit po and src?)
20150804 16:59:32< aquileia> aeth: Spinning off parts only has a major impact if we'd be allowed to rewrite history and delete their very existence, and that's not going to happen...
20150804 16:59:45-!- hay207 [~hay207@41.34.12.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150804 17:00:05< aeth> celticminstrel: they somehow solved the history thing already when they migrated from SVN, e.g. it was SVN/trunk and SVN/branches/1.x
20150804 17:00:15< aeth> I'm sure there must have been some commit that applied to more than one
20150804 17:00:33< celticminstrel> Maybe not.
20150804 17:00:35< aeth> aquileia: It still has a major impact in terms of modularity and in terms of future changes, i.e. future data files added in terms of wesnoth-data
20150804 17:00:48< aquileia> aeth: That wasn't we, but one single dev who wrote tools to resolve the history conversion
20150804 17:01:04< aeth> aquileia: so yeah wesnoth gets all the big binary files in its past, but wesnoth-data would get all the big new binary files
20150804 17:01:21< aeth> over time it would pay off as even minor adjustments are new images in git, afaik
20150804 17:01:30< celticminstrel> Some of these attic ones make me wonder why they're not used.
20150804 17:01:38< celticminstrel> Others look obviously old and out-dated.
20150804 17:02:26-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 17:02:34< aquileia> Actually, outdated images should be moved to wesnoth/resources
20150804 17:02:50< aeth> yeah that would be a good spot for attic
20150804 17:03:04< celticminstrel> Really? So, attic is more for things that are planned to be used in the future?
20150804 17:03:14< aeth> celticminstrel: no attic is where they move things that are no longer used
20150804 17:03:19< aquileia> Attic has to die...
20150804 17:03:24< aeth> celticminstrel: I'm really not sure why that's necessary even under SVN, you can just check the revision history
20150804 17:03:33< aeth> and on git everyone has a local copy so it's really not necessary
20150804 17:03:37< celticminstrel> What aeth said and what aquileia contradict each other.
20150804 17:03:58< aeth> how?
20150804 17:04:22< aeth> attic is "old art and resources not currently used anywhere in the game" https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/attic/README
20150804 17:04:25< celticminstrel> [Aug 04@1:02:34pm] aquileia: Actually, outdated images should be moved to wesnoth/resources
20150804 17:04:26< celticminstrel> [Aug 04@1:03:14pm] aeth: celticminstrel: no attic is where they move things that are no longer used
20150804 17:04:36-!- JackBauer24 [~JackBauer@89-76-206-248.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20150804 17:04:44< aeth> celticminstrel: right, aquileia is saying wesnoth/wesnoth/attic should be moved to wesnoth/resources/attic
20150804 17:04:45< celticminstrel> "no longer used" sounds almsot the same as "outdated"
20150804 17:04:50< celticminstrel> ^almost
20150804 17:04:54< celticminstrel> Ah, okay.
20150804 17:04:59< aquileia> celticminstrel: resources fills a doulbe role: graveyard and translators resources
20150804 17:05:01< aeth> https://github.com/wesnoth
20150804 17:05:07-!- Appleman1234_ [~Appleman1@KD036012009252.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 17:05:12< aeth> wesnoth/resources i.e. the github path, there's no wesnoth/resources directory
20150804 17:05:30< aeth> wesnoth/resources.git not wesnoth/wesnoth/resources/
20150804 17:06:35-!- cpf [~cpf@ip-188-118-61-46.reverse.destiny.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20150804 17:06:53< aquileia> Or actually it'd be best to relieve resources of all the junk and do a separate attic repo (with 0 expected clones & forks...)
20150804 17:07:30< zookeeper> yeah, attic could/should go to resources
20150804 17:07:40-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD111107184246.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150804 17:07:41< aquileia> zookeeper: Hi
20150804 17:08:25< celticminstrel> Ah, yeah, that would make sense.
20150804 17:09:07< celticminstrel> Not everything in attic is an image though.
20150804 17:10:31< aquileia> aeth: Oh, and there you have proof of the one-man svn-->git conversion job: master/attic/wesnoth.fo
20150804 17:10:45< celticminstrel> I was wondering what that is.
20150804 17:10:57< celticminstrel> I didn't feel it was worth clicking View Raw though.
20150804 17:12:06< aquileia> The 'last commit' is enough to tell you the contents
20150804 17:12:30< celticminstrel> Oh, heh.
20150804 17:12:37< celticminstrel> Missed that.
20150804 17:13:07< aquileia> Not really something to include in the main repo, though...
20150804 17:14:19-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-161-229-81.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 17:16:41< aquileia> aeth: Anyway, to change history, you'd have to get shadowms approval, prepare everything in a fork, mail the mailinglist that during a certain timewindow no commits should be pushed, force push, and get everyone to checkout upstream master ... a massive organisational task
20150804 17:17:26< celticminstrel> Not impossible, but I suppose it's fairly unlikely to be worthwhile.
20150804 17:18:01-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B009B16.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 17:36:18< aeth> aquileia: right, that's why it'd only be worth it to change history would be to do a large reorganization
20150804 17:36:27< aeth> aquileia: and I guess the window for that would be 1.15
20150804 17:36:33< aeth> since 1.13 is already in progress
20150804 17:36:51< aeth> i.e. it'd only be worth it if all the little annoyances were reorganized at once, not just one
20150804 17:39:03-!- claymore2 [~hexchat@host109-154-220-118.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 17:58:17-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 18:03:03-!- TheJJ [~rofl@ipbcc184bc.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
20150804 18:04:12-!- TheJJ [~rofl@ipbcc184bc.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 18:16:24-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150804 18:17:38-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 18:23:57-!- wario_ [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 18:23:58-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150804 18:24:11-!- wario_ is now known as wario
20150804 18:35:15-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
20150804 18:35:43-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 18:39:54-!- aquileia [95acd0d3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.172.208.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150804 18:47:55< celticminstrel> Eh, my campaign has fallen to page 3.
20150804 18:53:20-!- LuHa1 [~E330-Mint@168.188.129.78] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20150804 19:01:36-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-161-229-81.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150804 19:09:51-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-161-229-81.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 19:18:00-!- LuHa [~E330-Mint@119.204.77.86] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 19:33:48< aeth> Hmm, one reason why GUI2 is so much better than [message] in my implementation is that I have, well, complicated submenus.
20150804 19:34:22< aeth> So the control kept going back and forth between WML that had to call LUA in strings in [code] and the Lua itself, so I couldn't really write the menus concisely
20150804 19:46:12-!- agorecki [~agorecki@unaffiliated/agorecki] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 19:51:03-!- RatArmy [~fujimoto@240f:b3:88e3:1:2ab2:bdff:fe8e:cb1e] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 19:59:59-!- JackBauer24 [~JackBauer@89-76-206-248.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 20:09:37-!- Appleman1234__ [~Appleman1@KD036012011096.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 20:12:52-!- Appleman1234_ [~Appleman1@KD036012009252.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20150804 20:13:11-!- Appleman1234__ is now known as Appleman1234
20150804 20:38:25-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B009B16.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150804 20:40:14-!- hay207 [~hay207@41.34.12.122] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 20:43:04-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20150804 20:43:58-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 20:47:02-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-161-229-81.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150804 20:58:26-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 21:02:16-!- claymore2_ [~hexchat@host109-154-220-118.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 21:02:18-!- Panda_ [~IMO@2a01:e35:8aae:fcb0:a6fd:e761:fbcd:cbc2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150804 21:05:10-!- claymore2 [~hexchat@host109-154-220-118.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150804 21:08:27-!- RatArmy [~fujimoto@240f:b3:88e3:1:2ab2:bdff:fe8e:cb1e] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150804 21:08:41-!- RatArmy [~fujimoto@ZB064123.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 21:09:22-!- RatArmy [~fujimoto@ZB064123.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit]
20150804 21:12:07-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-161-229-81.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 21:18:19-!- Elouin_ [~Elouin@p200300454457B900CA6000FFFED11D67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 21:21:08-!- prophile [~alynn@oftn/member/prophile] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 21:22:43-!- trolling [~alynn@oftn/member/prophile] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150804 21:23:48-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 21:43:36-!- claymore2_ [~hexchat@host109-154-220-118.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20150804 21:56:24-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-161-229-81.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20150804 22:11:34-!- ArneBab [~quassel@55d400cf.access.ecotel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150804 22:11:41-!- ArneBab [~quassel@55d400cf.access.ecotel.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 22:27:35-!- Elouin_ [~Elouin@p200300454457B900CA6000FFFED11D67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150804 22:36:54-!- SpoOkyMagician [~chatzilla@cpe-74-136-81-20.kya.res.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 22:37:17-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 22:37:56-!- aquileia [95acd0d3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.172.208.211] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 22:39:46< aquileia> Any translators around? I'd need two strings in: de, fr, zh_CN, zh_TW, it, ru, pt, pt_BR, pl, cs, gl, hu, es, ja, fi
20150804 22:40:12< aquileia> 1. "Store userdata (preferences, saved games..) in My Documents\My Games\${UserdataDir}"
20150804 22:40:20< aquileia> 2. "Store userdata in the install location"
20150804 22:40:23-!- SpoOkyMagician_ [~chatzilla@cpe-74-136-81-20.kya.res.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 22:40:50< aquileia> It's to get the windows installer localized in these languages
20150804 22:41:14< aquileia> loonycyborg: ^
20150804 22:41:29-!- SpoOkyMagician [~chatzilla@cpe-74-136-81-20.kya.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20150804 22:41:32-!- SpoOkyMagician_ is now known as SpoOkyMagician
20150804 22:42:07< loonycyborg> aquileia: I'm consider getting rid ofthis setting
20150804 22:42:30< aquileia> So you'd always use My Games ?
20150804 22:43:19-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD036012011096.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150804 22:44:19< loonycyborg> that's not even correct location
20150804 22:44:35< loonycyborg> somewhere in appdataor somethinglike that
20150804 22:44:39< loonycyborg> always use it
20150804 22:45:59-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD036012011096.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 22:46:04< aquileia> loonycyborg: I think 'My Games' will be used, whereas 'install location' typically leads to them being stoed in AppData
20150804 22:47:11< zookeeper> loonycyborg, what was the reason again for removing option 2? something to do with virtualstore problems?
20150804 22:47:12< aquileia> You probably meant the same, but  'that' isn't clearly defined, so I thought I'd repeat it
20150804 22:48:00< loonycyborg> zookeeper: because it'simplemented in shortcut, and it might getconfusing
20150804 22:48:15< loonycyborg> I want to find another solution for issue it addressed
20150804 22:49:12< loonycyborg> also it requires translating itas you see
20150804 22:52:04< loonycyborg> zookeeper: you mean option 2 aquileia mentioned above?
20150804 22:52:08< loonycyborg> or something else?
20150804 22:54:10< loonycyborg> we removed checkbox to run wesnoth after installation due to virtual storeproblems
20150804 22:55:15< zookeeper> loonycyborg, yes
20150804 22:55:16< aquileia> I thought there was a second reason, but if it messed up the VirtualStore situation as well, ok
20150804 22:57:11< loonycyborg> we have option to store userdata in install location to have portable (on USB stick) installs of wesnoth right?
20150804 22:58:19< aquileia> loonycyborg: I think I found a way to make the 'run after installation' option work... should I readd it or just leav it out?
20150804 22:58:49< loonycyborg> did anyone complain about it being missing?
20150804 22:59:24< zookeeper> i almost never use the "run <whatever i just installed> now" option at the end of installers, because it just feels like it has more chances of going wrong than starting it up the way i'll always do it afterwards :x
20150804 23:00:15-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20150804 23:00:52< aquileia> Well, the fix would be to let explorer.exe call the shortcut in the start menu, so it'd be 100% identical to using that
20150804 23:01:17< aquileia> But if there's no need - less translatable strings!
20150804 23:01:44< shadowm> Leave it out.
20150804 23:02:53< shadowm> aquileia: explorer.exe can run with elevated privileges too. What does NSIS do to avoid that?
20150804 23:03:16< aquileia> http://mdb-blog.blogspot.de/2013/01/nsis-lunch-program-as-user-from-uac.html
20150804 23:04:27-!- SpoOkyMagician [~chatzilla@cpe-74-136-81-20.kya.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: brb]
20150804 23:04:28< shadowm> I could see this kind of kluge breaking later down the road, especially if no-one has tested it with Windows 10.
20150804 23:04:41< aquileia> ok
20150804 23:05:54< shadowm> loonycyborg: We should get rid of the userdata-in-install option.
20150804 23:06:05< aquileia> There's of course the NSIS UAC plugin, which can reset the user, but that's a little complicated
20150804 23:06:10< loonycyborg> yes true
20150804 23:06:23< shadowm> The people who actually need it should be able to figure out how to achieve the same thing by themselves or ask for help.
20150804 23:06:34 * aquileia grinds axe
20150804 23:07:15< shadowm> As for whether Documents\My Games is the correct location, I highly doubt it but that's something we might want to figure out now before 1.13.2.
20150804 23:08:44< aquileia> Well, we're not the only ones using that default - my 'My Games' dir has Skyrim as well
20150804 23:08:50< zookeeper> what _would_ be the way to manually change the userdata location then? actually i don't even know how it currently knows where it is... via registry i must assume
20150804 23:09:16< shadowm> zookeeper: The --config-dir switch, which has unusual semantics on Windows.
20150804 23:09:20< aquileia> zookeeper: Nope, the userdata dir is the only thing NOT saved in the registry
20150804 23:09:46< shadowm> The userdata dir is one of the all things not saved in the registry.
20150804 23:10:09< shadowm> Wesnoth doesn't ever look into the registry for anything.
20150804 23:10:14< aquileia> shadowm: I'm speaking about installation relevant info
20150804 23:10:23< shadowm> And I'm speaking about Wesnoth.
20150804 23:10:30< Ravana_> would that switch need to be used for each time to start wesnoth?
20150804 23:10:41< shadowm> Yes.
20150804 23:11:01< shadowm> That's why Microsoft in their wisdom invented program shortcuts back in version 3.0 or so several decades ago.
20150804 23:11:16-!- SpoOkyMagician [~chatzilla@cpe-74-136-81-20.kya.res.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 23:11:46< zookeeper> okay
20150804 23:11:49< shadowm> Currently, on Windows wesnoth.exe without the switch will try .\userdata\.
20150804 23:12:22< shadowm> With the switch, it will apparently try a path relative to %HOMEDRIVE%%HOMEPATH%\Documents\My Games instead.
20150804 23:12:31< shadowm> Neither approach makes a load of sense.
20150804 23:13:19< Ravana_> back in 1.10 I did use bat to exe in order to start wesnoth with certain size, same way should work then
20150804 23:13:25< zookeeper> well couldn't it just try .\userdata first and if it's not there, try My Games (or whatever) instead? no switches needed, and if people want it in install location they just move the userdata dir there
20150804 23:14:08< shadowm> The My Games folder is nonstandard and it's created by Wesnoth.
20150804 23:15:41< shadowm> IIRC other games will stuff their user-defined files somewhere in %appdata% but some people would be upset by the prospect of having to look into a hidden directory -- even though that's exactly what you are forced to do right now with the "userdata" approach.
20150804 23:16:31< shadowm> And even though I added the Paths dialog to Preferences in 1.11.x, because I guess people don't realize it exists or what it's used for.
20150804 23:16:54< shadowm> (Plus it's probably broken with the goddamn userdata approach.)
20150804 23:18:05< aquileia> Well, if we look at Steam they have their own Steam\userdata, and Skyrim uses My Games as well. Witcher 2 uses My Documents, as does Bioware
20150804 23:18:49< shadowm> Great, so nobody in the games industry cares.
20150804 23:19:40< aquileia> Bethesda, CDPR and Bioware use a My Documents based approach, so why shouldn't we?
20150804 23:20:30< shadowm> Then let's keep that but make it the default from 1.13.2 onwards.
20150804 23:20:58-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20150804 23:21:21< shadowm> And people who need the userdata approach can use the --config-dir switch by themselves, Wesnoth doesn't need to do any guesswork like zookeeper suggested.
20150804 23:21:24< aquileia> shadowm: What about the 1.12.5 manual updater? Should it enforce My Games?
20150804 23:22:32< shadowm> I can't answer any questions about 1.12.5 until the case of the mysterious UAC virt. breakage is solved and we find the culprits.
20150804 23:24:07< shadowm> loonycyborg, aquileia: The problem with offering the userdata option is mostly one of ignorance. People who don't need it choose it for no obvious reason.
20150804 23:24:40-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150804 23:25:08< shadowm> Perhaps some want to keep their Documents folder "clean", but in the end they are only causing themselves more problems for an immaterial aesthetic preference.
20150804 23:26:42< shadowm> Hence it's a better idea to not offer the option (implying it's a "supported" thing) at all so that they are forced to deal with the consequences of their choice without blaming us.
20150804 23:27:04-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 23:27:30< aquileia> It's unfortunate that the enforced path would include a space, but I guess it can't be helped
20150804 23:27:51< shadowm> And to better reflect our policy on the matter, I think the change of behavior in wesnoth.exe is well warranted.
20150804 23:27:56< shadowm> aquileia: What.
20150804 23:28:07< shadowm> So you are saying that Program Files has no whitespace in it?
20150804 23:28:37< aquileia> Program Files has an internal name without whitespace, at least
20150804 23:28:54< aquileia> but you're right, it doesn't really matter
20150804 23:29:04< shadowm> It's not what's used in the shortcut. The internal name is the non-LFN version used for compatibility with MS-DOS/Win16 applications.
20150804 23:29:21< shadowm> And it's not even guaranteed to have a certain value, or exist in the first place.
20150804 23:30:50< aquileia> okay, summarizing - for my PR, should I remove the userdata option page make it translateable?
20150804 23:31:02< aquileia> *or
20150804 23:38:11< celticminstrel> What's My Games for? Saved games?
20150804 23:38:46< celticminstrel> If so, I don't see any issue with that, though I'd probably prefer "Wesnoth Saves" or something instead of the more generic "My Games".
20150804 23:38:52< shadowm> I'm filing a bug.
20150804 23:39:39< celticminstrel> Anyway, it's at least a sensible default for a saved games location.
20150804 23:40:06< aquileia> celticminstrel: 'My Games' potentially can be used by other games on the PC as well (e.g. Skyrim) which saves one dir in My Documents
20150804 23:40:34< celticminstrel> The other sensible default would be something in %APPDATA% (for Windows) or ~/Library/Application Support/ (for Mac).
20150804 23:40:48 * celticminstrel shrugs.
20150804 23:41:14< celticminstrel> If that's the case, I'd suggest a subdirectory of My Games.
20150804 23:41:33< aquileia> We use My Games\Wesnoth1.12
20150804 23:41:38 * celticminstrel nods.
20150804 23:41:40< celticminstrel> Okay then.
20150804 23:42:05< celticminstrel> (I actually dislike the inclusion of the version in the directory name, but I guess you have a decent reason for that.)
20150804 23:42:44< aquileia> as saves from different major versions are usually incompatible, we like to keep them separate
20150804 23:47:06< shadowm> 20:30:52 <aquileia> okay, summarizing - for my PR, should I remove the userdata option page make it translateable?
20150804 23:47:35< shadowm> aquileia: For 1.13.2: remove it, and also remove the part where the installer adds the --config-dir option to Wesnoth's command line: 20:30:52 <aquileia> okay, summarizing - for my PR, should I remove the userdata option page make it translateable?
20150804 23:47:47< shadowm> aquileia: Oops, pasted your message again when I meant https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?23753
20150804 23:48:15< shadowm> aquileia: For 1.12.5: keep it.
20150804 23:48:25< aquileia> ok
20150804 23:48:36< shadowm> But we might want to add a visible warning against using it with Vista and later, for 1.12.5.
20150804 23:48:41< shadowm> A very, very visible warning.
20150804 23:49:24< shadowm> I will take care of the wesnoth.exe changes required to implement #23753.
20150804 23:50:16-!- d347hm4n [~kde@host-92-16-56-202.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20150804 23:52:05< aquileia> shadowm: I'll leave the --config-dir parameter in, but removing will be as simple as commenting out half a lne of  code
20150804 23:53:36< shadowm> Well, hopefully I'll not forget to prod you before 1.13.2 then.
20150804 23:54:10< shadowm> aquileia: Also, if you need translations you might want to post in wesnoth-i18n@gna.org.
20150804 23:54:35< shadowm> *to
20150804 23:54:52< aquileia> If we remove that option, I won't need translations for it. Might come in handy for the updater though - thanks
20150804 23:55:29-!- d347hm4n [~kde@host-92-16-56-202.as13285.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150804 23:55:45-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20150804 23:55:59< aquileia> Theoretically I could add a set of .po files, but that'd be crazy for a few simple strings
20150804 23:58:36-!- hay207 [~hay207@41.34.12.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
--- Log closed Wed Aug 05 00:00:21 2015