--- Log opened Sat Aug 15 00:00:49 2015
--- Day changed Sat Aug 15 2015
20150815 00:00:49< aeth> hmm, that's not good, it looks like there's not enough translation strings for me to be able to cleverly reword my menus and get translations for free.
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20150815 00:04:28< shadowm> */*.pot.
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20150815 00:05:13< aeth> oh, okay I guess that's the original
20150815 00:06:13< shadowm> If it's in the template catalogue, the odds that it'll be localized at some point between now and +infinity seconds are non-zero.
20150815 00:06:28< aeth> ugh, some strings I want are uppercase only and some I want are lowercase only
20150815 00:06:47< aeth> (and some aren't there)
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20150815 00:58:26< aeth> do [object]s stay on a unit even after they expire or something? I seem to be having issues with immediately reapplying an object as it expires
20150815 01:13:36< aeth> *ah*, I see what's going on
20150815 01:14:16< aeth> When I have an [object] with duration turn, it's being added and then removed immediately if something else is being removed with duration turn
20150815 01:17:00< aeth> maybe it's just that effects added at side turn with duration turn immediately disappear
20150815 01:17:13< celticminstrel> That would make sense, I think.
20150815 01:17:35< celticminstrel> What about adding it on side turn refresh? Does that make any difference?
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20150815 01:18:15< aeth> ah, I figured it out
20150815 01:19:33< aeth> I was right in that there is something after side turn, and that's when [object]s with an expiration of turn are removed
20150815 01:21:09< aeth> yes, turn refresh makes it work
20150815 01:21:28< aeth> I guess it goes side turn -> turn refresh, and turn refresh is when the [object] is removed. Give an [object] in side turn and it is almost immediately gone
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20150815 01:38:40< celticminstrel> There's also duration=turn end, apparently (but that needs 1.13).
20150815 01:42:06< vultraz> Lot of good stuff in 1.13
20150815 01:42:11< vultraz> Like [object] no_write = yes
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20150815 01:59:21< celticminstrel> no_write?
20150815 02:00:07< vultraz> celticminstrel: [object] contents not written to unit
20150815 02:00:17< vultraz> so you can apply a one-off effect without having it clutter up your units
20150815 02:00:23< aeth> celticminstrel: not particularly useful in my continually-refresh use case
20150815 02:00:57< aeth> celticminstrel: the illusion of multi-turn finite [object] means that I have to add it every time it expires
20150815 02:01:22< vultraz> And it stays there forever
20150815 02:01:49< celticminstrel> Oh, I get it. But it would disappear on level-up then, right?
20150815 02:01:53< aeth> [object]s stay there forever when temporary?
20150815 02:02:02< aeth> that's kind of stupid
20150815 02:02:02< celticminstrel> Because the unit is rebuilt and modifications are reapplied on level-up.
20150815 02:02:08< vultraz> Well, there's duration=forever
20150815 02:02:21< vultraz> But this is basically like modify_unit
20150815 02:02:33< vultraz> But yes, I think you might lose it on levelup, hm
20150815 02:02:53< celticminstrel> Well, you lose modify_unit changes on levelup, too.
20150815 02:03:02< vultraz> It's more for internal things
20150815 02:03:17< vultraz> Like, for example
20150815 02:03:22< celticminstrel> Someone who dislieks that could always catch the levelup event and re-add it.
20150815 02:03:35< vultraz> My campaign allows you to equip and unequip weapons with [object]
20150815 02:03:42< vultraz> without no_write, they pile up....
20150815 02:03:50< celticminstrel> ^dislikes
20150815 02:04:04< vultraz> So I have to use a custom [remove_object] tag to strip it out in 1.12
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20150815 02:04:26< celticminstrel> Perhaps there should be a mainline [remove_object]?
20150815 02:05:09< vultraz> It's complicated
20150815 02:05:29< vultraz> Because of the way units are implemented and stuff
20150815 02:05:40< vultraz> The tag I have isn't even fully functional
20150815 02:05:49< vultraz> So I just use it to strip tags from the config
20150815 02:06:07< vultraz> Don't ask me how it works since I didn't write it :P
20150815 02:06:13< vultraz> It's in 8680's Lua Pack
20150815 02:07:17< celticminstrel> It's not fully functional how?
20150815 02:07:42< vultraz> Some effects can't be undone, and some cause errors
20150815 02:07:50< vultraz> Which, again, is why I use it as a config stripper
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20150815 02:15:04< celticminstrel> Specific effects?
20150815 02:15:15< celticminstrel> Any examples handy?
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20150815 02:24:15< vultraz> I can't recall
20150815 02:24:53< vultraz> here's an example of use, though https://github.com/Vultraz/Shadows_of_Deception/blob/master/lua/gui/inventory.lua#L34
20150815 02:25:33< vultraz> (lp8 is more of 8680's lua pack. provides a lot of useful util functions)
20150815 02:28:54< aeth> celticminstrel: I do that, I catch the level up event and reapply upgrades.
20150815 02:28:58< aeth> :-)
20150815 02:29:30< aeth> I think certain things must be done with [object], though.
20150815 02:29:38< aeth> Or at least are best done with [object].
20150815 02:29:48< aeth> e.g. giving people temporary dummy abilities
20150815 02:30:26< aeth> btw I added item transfer, I coded in the haste potions, and I gave a free upgrade point, so I probably did enough to justify another test game
20150815 02:30:30< aeth> if anyone's interested
20150815 02:37:10< celticminstrel> Hmm, maybe...
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20150815 03:59:51< celticminstrel> Apparently {CLEAR_VARIABLE unit.advancement} does not work...
20150815 04:01:52< celticminstrel> Or rather, unstoring it seems to restore the advancements.l
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20150815 04:03:15< celticminstrel> (Basically I'm trying to remove the available AMLAs after the unit advances.)
20150815 04:03:41< celticminstrel> Maybe it's impossible.
20150815 04:03:51< celticminstrel> I have no other ideas.
20150815 04:08:14< celticminstrel> Unrelatedly, is there a way to see a unit's gender other than by the image?
20150815 04:16:27< celticminstrel> {FOREACH unit.advancement i}{VARIABLE unit.advancement[$i].strict_amla yes}{NEXT i} also doesn't work.
20150815 04:17:00< celticminstrel> Basically I guess unstoring a unit rebuilds it, so everything from the unit_type is copied back in.
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20150815 04:19:24< aeth> hmm
20150815 04:19:46< shadowm> celticminstrel: The gender attribute.
20150815 04:19:55< celticminstrel> shadowm: I meant in the sidebar.
20150815 04:20:14< shadowm> Oh, no, not really unless you are using a language with gendered unit type or race names.
20150815 04:20:23< shadowm> (And abilities and weapon specials.)
20150815 04:20:26< shadowm> (And traits.)
20150815 04:21:31< celticminstrel> I'm out of ideas again.
20150815 04:21:37< aeth> hmm, it doesn't look like there's a way to make a campaign require a certain era
20150815 04:21:49< aeth> at least not directly in [campaign]
20150815 04:22:23< celticminstrel> List it as a dependency?
20150815 04:22:33< celticminstrel> Not sure where you do that though.
20150815 04:23:03< aeth> celticminstrel: so people don't select factions that are absolutely irrelevant
20150815 04:23:08< aeth> since the recruit list gets cleared anyway
20150815 04:23:53< celticminstrel> You can do it in [scenario].
20150815 04:24:11< aeth> right, but not [campaign]
20150815 04:24:13< aeth> which seems odd
20150815 04:24:21< aeth> seems like an oversight to the point of perhaps being a bug
20150815 04:24:25< celticminstrel> I suppose.
20150815 04:24:26< aeth> you can disable era selection, which makes it Default
20150815 04:24:53< celticminstrel> Do multiplayer campaigns use the [campaign] tag?
20150815 04:24:57< aeth> Yes
20150815 04:25:09< aeth> I am about to try one more time at making this a [campaign] campaign
20150815 04:25:17< aeth> previously I just did it in [multiplayer] directly, the old style
20150815 04:25:30< aeth> I found out I need to require_campaign=no so I'm going to try again
20150815 04:25:54< aeth> MP campaigns can basically just be launched by hiding all but one of the [multiplayer] scenarios and then just doing new scenario, etc., like usual
20150815 04:26:14< celticminstrel> I tried advance=no in [unstore_unit], still doesn't work...
20150815 04:26:15< aeth> What [campaign] gives me is apparently the only way to use extra_defines: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CampaignWML#The_.5Bcampaign.5D_tag
20150815 04:26:28< aeth> I really need extra_defines so you can be more RPGish
20150815 04:27:41< celticminstrel> What, like enabling the optional advancements?
20150815 04:27:46< aeth> yes
20150815 04:28:01< aeth> afaik the only way to do it without actually putting effort into it and basically reimplementing the feature is to just use [campaign]
20150815 04:28:52< aeth> This is very important because people with dogs (well, wolves) want them to promote
20150815 04:29:03< celticminstrel> Can you think of any way to remove an AMLA possibility from a unit?
20150815 04:29:20< aeth> no, I haven't really messed with advancements yet
20150815 04:29:27< aeth> It's the only part that I didn't rewrite from my very messy code
20150815 04:30:17< celticminstrel> I implemented an exclude_amla, but of course I can't use that in 1.12.
20150815 04:30:34< celticminstrel> (Also doesn't help for the more general case, I suppose.)
20150815 04:31:20< celticminstrel> Oh! Maybe if I transform it to the normal shaman instead of the custom shaman with advancements.
20150815 04:31:45< aeth> can anyone check to make sure I am not accidentally requiring download?
20150815 04:31:54< aeth> I made a custom era and campaign but it shouldn't require download
20150815 04:32:12< celticminstrel> Sure.
20150815 04:34:13 * celticminstrel poke aeth 
20150815 04:34:22< aeth> I have a multi-monitor set-up
20150815 04:34:35< aeth> I don't need poking, I always can see everything
20150815 04:34:45< celticminstrel> What do you want me to do.
20150815 04:35:09< aeth> I need you to see if it requires a download
20150815 04:35:17< aeth> because I don't think I can tell because I have it "downloaded"
20150815 04:35:26< aeth> Even if I e.g. connect as Aethaeryn_ or something
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20150815 04:37:19< aeth> maybe if there's a command line argument to start Wesnoth with a different user-data directory
20150815 04:37:27< celticminstrel> So what do I do? Connect to MP server, then...?
20150815 04:38:18< aeth> celticminstrel: just please see if my campaign shows up gray i.e. you can't join
20150815 04:38:29< aeth> it should take 2 seconds, just filter for "Aethaeryn"
20150815 04:38:45< aeth> last time I tried to use [campaign] I wasted like 30 minutes waiting for people to join
20150815 04:38:50< aeth> because sometimes it just takes forever
20150815 04:38:51< aeth> oh wait
20150815 04:38:52< aeth> nevermind
20150815 04:38:53< aeth> someone joined
20150815 04:39:12< celticminstrel> I forgot how to chat.
20150815 04:39:51< celticminstrel> Found it.
20150815 04:39:58< aeth> right but now someone joined so I know
20150815 04:40:03< celticminstrel> That was me. :P
20150815 04:40:06< aeth> ah
20150815 04:40:08< aeth> oops
20150815 04:40:19< aeth> celticminstrel: well thanks for your help
20150815 04:40:44< celticminstrel> Someone else joined too.
20150815 04:40:59< aeth> yes
20150815 04:41:16< aeth> I favorite people who play my games so I can /whisper poke them to see if they're interested
20150815 04:41:22< aeth> because otherwise it takes forever to organize a game
20150815 04:41:48< celticminstrel> Is that possible with unregistered names?
20150815 04:41:59< aeth> this RPG thing is a niche of a niche since most "RPGs" are deathmatches
20150815 04:42:18< celticminstrel> Should I be doing something?
20150815 04:42:50< aeth> well I'm just waiting for a game to get together, which could take a while, if you don't want to play you can leave and rejoin as observer I guess
20150815 04:43:15< aeth> I'm going to be testing the potions, which are really really hard to test, so this one might have lots of bugs, I'm not sure. Usually I can test everything by myself before going MP
20150815 04:43:39< celticminstrel> I wouldn't mind playing, but I want to test my next idea on removing the AMLA possibilities, so if it'll take awhile I might want to leave and come back.
20150815 04:43:57< aeth> celticminstrel: what I generally do when I'm coding and waiting is I open two Wesnoths
20150815 04:44:05< aeth> Not sure if your computer is powerful enough but Wesnoth generally isn't that bad
20150815 04:44:08< celticminstrel> Mm, I suppose that's possible.
20150815 04:44:16< aeth> Just disable music and I think nothing else clashes
20150815 04:44:20< celticminstrel> Has to be done from the command-line though.
20150815 04:44:35< celticminstrel> Mac doesn't allow multiple instances by default.
20150815 04:45:33< aeth> ah
20150815 04:46:01< celticminstrel> Getting OOS for some reason.
20150815 04:46:07< aeth> yes, how
20150815 04:46:10< aeth> It's the lobby
20150815 04:46:18< aeth> I'm going to remake
20150815 04:46:20< celticminstrel> And the multiple-instance idea doesn't seem to have worked, so I'll leave and probably come back.
20150815 04:47:31< aeth> actually
20150815 04:47:41< aeth> before character selection I'll probably try to promote a wolf
20150815 04:47:44< aeth> and see if that causes OOS
20150815 04:47:49< aeth> i.e. I'll see if extra_defines works
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20150815 04:49:22< celticminstrel> Yay, I got it working.
20150815 04:50:00< aeth> ah the OOS is because somehow Computer_player started early
20150815 04:52:33< celticminstrel> Eh?
20150815 04:53:20< celticminstrel> I have an objectives screen up right now.
20150815 04:53:40< celticminstrel> So it seems players that join are bypassing the lobby?
20150815 04:53:43< aeth> computer_player is getting some strange bug
20150815 04:53:48< aeth> where he is bypassing the lobby
20150815 04:53:50< aeth> are you doing that too?
20150815 04:53:58< aeth> I am in the lobby
20150815 04:54:42< aeth> wow
20150815 04:54:53< aeth> just connected as Aethaeryn_, yes I am bypassing lobby
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20150815 04:58:20< celticminstrel> Yes I am.
20150815 04:58:55< celticminstrel> Now it requires a password?
20150815 05:02:46< celticminstrel> Does LoW do the same thing?
20150815 05:03:40< celticminstrel> I mean bypassing the lobby, not requiring a password.
20150815 05:03:48< aeth> No, LoW doesn't do the same thing
20150815 05:03:53< aeth> so the bug is with my code, not MP campaigns
20150815 05:03:54< aeth> apparently
20150815 05:04:02< celticminstrel> Guess so.
20150815 05:04:18< aeth> the password is "wtf"
20150815 05:04:24< aeth> but it is doing the same thing, not particularly interesting
20150815 05:04:25< aeth> same bug
20150815 05:04:34 * celticminstrel nod.
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20150815 05:06:10< aeth> Maybe it's because I need a(n empty) recruit list
20150815 05:06:41< aeth> LOW somehow shows up with "Custom" factions whereas I keep showing up with "Random"
20150815 05:07:00< celticminstrel> Oh.
20150815 05:08:02< celticminstrel> I remember seeing that too with something.
20150815 05:08:17< aeth> so I guess this is why campaigns don't need to require eras
20150815 05:08:20< aeth> but I don't know how to get it
20150815 05:08:29< aeth> I'm going through LoW source and not seeing anything special, although it could be hidden in a macro
20150815 05:08:38< celticminstrel> "get it"?
20150815 05:10:17< aeth> Oh
20150815 05:10:26< aeth> maybe it's because there's a hardcoded assumption that there's a named leader in MP campaigns
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20150815 05:12:41< aeth> or faction=Custom
20150815 05:13:55< aeth> nope
20150815 05:14:10< aeth> celticminstrel: I have it look exactly like LoW now, with a faction="Custom" and set names and it's still going straight past the lobby
20150815 05:15:05< celticminstrel> What about having a recruit list and clearing it on scenario start?
20150815 05:15:35< aeth> I found it I think
20150815 05:17:14< celticminstrel> It does look like faction=Custom is decided by the recruit list.
20150815 05:17:14< aeth> no it's not
20150815 05:17:14< aeth> it's in a macro in a macro or some shit like that
20150815 05:17:14< aeth> Source can be so hard to read
20150815 05:17:14< celticminstrel> No, I mean when I try things out, having a recruit list is the thing that makes it show as Custom.
20150815 05:17:14< aeth> no, there's a faction="Custom"
20150815 05:17:14< aeth> it's just hidden
20150815 05:17:16< aeth> in some file
20150815 05:17:34< aeth> GOT IT
20150815 05:17:48< aeth> The bug was I did allow_new_game=no in the first scenario of the campaign
20150815 05:18:01< aeth> Because I had them as [multiplayer] and I wanted to get it off the [multiplayer] scenario list
20150815 05:18:05< celticminstrel> Aha.
20150815 05:18:14< aeth> now that I replaced it with [scenario] it's not on the list but I must do allow_new_game=yes still
20150815 05:18:35< celticminstrel> Deos it work as [scenario]?
20150815 05:18:40< aeth> yes
20150815 05:18:45< aeth> otherwise hybrid campaigns couldn't work
20150815 05:19:01< celticminstrel> I do see what you mean.
20150815 05:19:44< aeth> what I'm probably going to do is just require download (eventually) and make the [modification] share .lua code with the [campaign] instead of trying to e.g. require an era that requires a modification
20150815 05:20:16< celticminstrel> Not requiring download is to make it easier for people to help you test, right?
20150815 05:21:13< aeth> yes
20150815 05:21:21< aeth> and also so people don't download a half-complete add-on
20150815 05:22:50< celticminstrel> Does Wesnoth support /me?
20150815 05:27:54< aeth> celticminstrel: is it messing up again?
20150815 05:27:59< celticminstrel> No.
20150815 05:28:01< aeth> oh okay
20150815 05:28:06-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-161-229-81.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150815 05:28:15< celticminstrel> Just trying to be the second to join so I can get green. :P
20150815 05:28:17< aeth> celticminstrel: I think it supports /me
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20150815 05:38:11< aeth> ancestral: want to play?
20150815 05:38:25< ancestral> I’m really, really tired
20150815 05:38:29< aeth> ancestral: I hit several MP campaign bugs so all the organic random joiners quit :(
20150815 05:38:32< aeth> ah
20150815 05:38:33< aeth> it's ok
20150815 05:38:36< ancestral> Sorry
20150815 05:38:38< aeth> I understand
20150815 05:38:40< ancestral> Otherwise, another day
20150815 05:38:44< aeth> I too have been really tired before
20150815 05:38:54< aeth> I think everyone can relate with hunger and being tired.
20150815 05:38:56< ancestral> Looooooooong day at work
20150815 05:38:59< celticminstrel> I should probably sleep too, but I'm not super-tired, so I'll wait.
20150815 05:39:18< ancestral> FWIW aeth’s games are usually decently fun
20150815 05:39:26< ancestral> :)
20150815 05:40:33< celticminstrel> I'm already in it, waiting for more to join.
20150815 05:41:33< aeth> ancestral: yeah you missed a good one yesterday, it was RPG style like a few years ago because everyone was willing to make it very RPGish
20150815 05:41:41< aeth> as opposed to the last few games that were more summoner battles than anything else
20150815 05:41:48< ancestral> Cool
20150815 05:41:51< aeth> I guess the first one was sort of RPGish and then a summoner battle at the end
20150815 05:41:57< aeth> (the first one on 1.12)
20150815 05:42:01< celticminstrel> That the one I observed?
20150815 05:42:12< celticminstrel> The "good one yesterday".
20150815 05:42:14< aeth> celticminstrel: the one yesterday was the most RPGish
20150815 05:42:21< aeth> because everyone was willing to play along
20150815 05:43:02< aeth> I think it's literally impossible to have canned dialog for everything and canned events for everything, so it is kind of odd to have one player speak for the NPCs and enemies
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20150815 08:02:56< Aginor> hey lipkab 
20150815 08:05:09< janebot> Tweet (by @Wesnoth) Ice and faeries in the user-made campaign Genesis! #screenshotsaturday http://t.co/Y2fnZELhsC [ https://twitter.com/Wesnoth/status/632463014902431745 ]
20150815 08:06:18< lipkab> Hi.
20150815 08:06:40< Aginor> I think I've nailed down the scrolling issue to a bug in SDL2
20150815 08:07:02< lipkab> Awesome. So what was it?
20150815 08:07:23< lipkab> Wait, a bug in SDL2?
20150815 08:07:29< Aginor> yes
20150815 08:07:31< shadowm> Why are you discussing this here and not in -dev? :p
20150815 08:07:46< lipkab> Not awesome :(
20150815 08:07:50< Aginor> I thought I was in -dev :D
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20150815 08:51:17< celticminstrel> Ooooh...
20150815 08:51:20< aeth> I like how unpredictable the games are
20150815 08:51:28< aeth> e.g. a bat as a player
20150815 08:51:30< celticminstrel> Ice?
20150815 08:51:50< celticminstrel> That should be mainlined!
20150815 08:53:29< aeth> I hate how I can't get bigger images on twitter without turning on JavaScript on twitter
20150815 08:53:36< celticminstrel> Faeries were already done in IftU. (Which I still haven't played.)
20150815 08:54:08< celticminstrel> Anyway, I was serious about sleeping.
20150815 08:54:13-!- celticminstrel is now known as celmin|sleep
20150815 08:55:59< janebot> wesnoth: Question: Is it possible to play original Wesnoth Campaigns using mod packs? [such as XP mod] (by /u/22whitewolf) https://reddit.com/r/wesnoth/3h2vyv
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20150815 13:53:40< minna> Hello, is anyone, uh
20150815 13:55:14< vultraz> hello
20150815 13:55:36< minna> ah
20150815 13:55:52< minna> hello. again.
20150815 13:56:23< minna> I'm bashing my face against making a faction addon. Should I make a forum thread or ask for help here as needed?
20150815 13:56:31< minna> Or is there a general help forum thread?
20150815 13:57:18< vultraz> Former
20150815 13:57:47< minna> Right.
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20150815 14:07:54< minna> Well then, I'm not sure what else could I say here.
20150815 14:26:01< zookeeper> you can post the link to your thread here
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20150815 17:51:50< minna> hm, that's an idea
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--- Log closed Sun Aug 16 00:00:12 2015