--- Log opened Mon Aug 17 00:00:42 2015
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20150817 01:49:42< celticminstrel>  It might be interesting to have weird ellipses like... squares, triangles, pentagons...
20150817 01:57:54< celticminstrel> I also have absolutely no clue how to decide on recruit cost for new units.
20150817 01:59:26< celticminstrel> Or max experience for that matter. I suppose you just have to try something and tweak until it's not terrible.
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20150817 02:29:50< aeth> celticminstrel: just data mine Default, it's balanced enough
20150817 02:30:08< aeth> celticminstrel: determine the damage range for units of each level, the hitpoints range for units of each level, etc., and look at how e.g. magical reduces max damage for the level, etc.
20150817 02:30:42< aeth> ideally your units should be within the range of mainline for cost, hitpoints, damage, experience, etc., just in case someone wants to combine them
20150817 02:33:57< celticminstrel> "data mine" implies "go through every unit and record everything relevant about it".
20150817 02:34:19< celticminstrel> So uh... maybe later, after I've specced out the basic concept of the units.
20150817 02:35:22< aeth> well, I mean see if you can derive a formula that produces cost based on abilities, level, hitpoints, damage, etc.
20150817 02:35:30< celticminstrel> What about mainline campaigns, are any of them also sufficiently balanced to serve as a reference?
20150817 02:35:37< aeth> And also see which ranges of damage (total, not just per strike) are acceptable
20150817 02:35:55< celticminstrel> I doubt I'll be able to derive a formula, but I imagine I should at least be able to notice some trends.
20150817 02:35:57< aeth> celticminstrel: probably not, a lot of campaign units are imbalanced, even ones accessible in mainline like Troll Hero
20150817 02:36:05< aeth> Because the special units are designed to be a bit tougher
20150817 02:43:34< celticminstrel> So basically, confine my investigation to units in the default factions and maybe khalifate.
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20150817 02:47:50< aeth> right, it's only going to be balanced if it's in Default itself afaik
20150817 02:47:58< aeth> that's if you want balance, I guess
20150817 02:49:45< celticminstrel> I don't actually care that much about a fine-tuned balance like what Default has.
20150817 02:50:15< aeth> it doesn't have to be fine tuned. factions are balanced for factions, anyway
20150817 02:50:18< celticminstrel> Yeah.
20150817 02:50:25< aeth> it just has to be the same kind of numbers
20150817 02:50:32< celticminstrel> I just need something vague and approximate so that it's not horribly overpowered.
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20150817 04:56:35< aeth> If I had to make a SP campaign it will probably work like this: units do not cost upkeep, recalls are free, you cannot recruit (often or at all?) past the first scenario. Basically, attrition of units rather than managing gold and having expendable units.
20150817 04:57:52< aeth> And the design of the scenarios would try to make it impossible to get through without losing units, but e.g. perhaps the enemy gold/recruits are based on your recall list so it's not game over if you lose too many units.
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20150817 18:38:02< celticminstrel> The problem with using a custom schedule is that I need graphics for it. :/
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20150817 19:33:04< celticminstrel> It would be nice if there were some sort of catalogue of images used in UMC so that I don't have to download tons of things to find what I want.
20150817 19:46:15< Ravana_> I did this few days ago looking for monsters images
20150817 19:46:25< Ravana_> units.wesnoth.org was massive help
20150817 19:46:40< aeth> for units
20150817 19:46:40< celticminstrel> For monsters, sure. I'm thinking about terrain mainly.
20150817 19:46:56< celticminstrel> Also custom schedules.
20150817 19:47:12< celticminstrel> I might use the underworld one from Delfador's Memoirs.
20150817 19:47:21< celticminstrel> Or a modification of it.
20150817 19:53:41< celticminstrel> There aren't really any custom terrains in the mainline campaigns. UtBS has a custom keep and SoF has a gate, but that's it.
20150817 19:59:25< aeth> celticminstrel: consider a simple recolor for terrain if you can.
20150817 19:59:49< aeth> A long time ago, I recolored the desert terrain to pink for a Mars-like terrain in Thunderstone and it seemed to work well.
20150817 20:01:02< aeth> In the GIMP it's Tools -> Colorize
20150817 20:01:07< celticminstrel> Ah, good idea.
20150817 20:01:19< aeth> Unlike the unit sprites you have to use a fancier tool than simply changing the pallet one by one
20150817 20:01:58< celticminstrel> If it's a simple recolour, then I can also copy the [terrain_graphics] implementation.
20150817 20:02:14< aeth> right
20150817 20:02:18< aeth> You get a lot for free
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20150817 20:04:54< aeth> if local ToD regions locally apply their own ToD filter you might even be able to do it through ToD entirely.... not sure
20150817 20:05:42< aeth> celticminstrel: A simple recolor might not be enough, but as long as it's just an application of a series of filters in the GIMP (or something else, I guess) then you can do it to all of the terrains in the set that you want to transform and it's fast.
20150817 20:08:07< celticminstrel> The Long Dark 4 schedule image has red in the east. I want to add similar red in the west to the Long Dark 2 schedule image.
20150817 20:08:29< celticminstrel> I think.
20150817 20:08:41< celticminstrel> Maybe that's not quite right.
20150817 20:09:04< celticminstrel> Actually maybe I should use First Watch and Second Watch instead of the Long Dark 2-4.
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20150817 21:18:40< janebot> Tweet (by @Wesnoth) (RT @JetrelArt) Anyone who cares AT ALL about pixel art needs to back this on principle to support the medium.  It's that good. https://t.co… [ https://twitter.com/Wesnoth/status/633387488132771841 ]
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20150817 21:58:43< celticminstrel> I seem to remember there was an Elvish Noble unit somewhere, but can't remember where.
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20150817 22:20:33< celticminstrel> Googling units.wesnoth.org seems to turn up Aria of the Dragon Slayer. I'm 99% sure that's not the place I remember it being, but I suppose it'll do.
20150817 22:27:18< celticminstrel> Hmm...
20150817 22:28:30< celticminstrel> That doesn't seem to work.
20150817 22:34:27< celticminstrel> The unit obviously exists somewhere, because I can see it on units.wesnoth.org/trunk, but it seems to be lying about where it exists... :|
20150817 22:34:34< celticminstrel> Unless...
20150817 22:35:22< celticminstrel> Yeah no, it's not in mainline.
20150817 22:38:20< zookeeper> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=32384&p=537504&hilit=+elvish+noble+#p537504
20150817 22:38:22< zookeeper> "there is a level 1 version of that unit called Elvish Noble. You can find it in era of two suns."
20150817 22:38:40< zookeeper> ironic... :>
20150817 22:38:50< celticminstrel> What's ironic?
20150817 22:39:10< celticminstrel> Oh, that's where I asked before, isn't it...
20150817 22:39:17 * celticminstrel hasn't clicked.
20150817 22:39:20< zookeeper> click!
20150817 22:40:54< celticminstrel> Oh.
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20150817 22:41:42< celticminstrel> Still not quite sure why you say it's ironic, unless you're looking at the post's IP address or something.
20150817 22:42:14< zookeeper> just the fact that you had seen that before
20150817 22:42:20< zookeeper> not that i can actually find that add-on, it seems
20150817 22:46:41< celticminstrel> I found it.
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20150817 22:46:57< celticminstrel> I think it was on the 1.10 add-ons server.
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20150817 22:49:41< zookeeper> curiously, units.wesnoth.org claims that there's one in An_Elven_Elementalist, but there isn't
20150817 22:51:25< celticminstrel> In units.wesnoth.org/trunk I saw it claiming to be in Aria of the Dragon Slayer, but again it wasn't there.
20150817 22:52:43< celticminstrel> Also it seems to claim it's in Song of Fire: http://units.wesnoth.org/trunk/A_Song_of_Fire/en_US/Elvish%20Noble.html
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20150817 22:57:12< Ravana_> look when the page was generated, perhaps there was one at that time
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--- Log closed Tue Aug 18 00:00:51 2015