--- Log opened Mon Aug 24 00:00:06 2015
--- Day changed Mon Aug 24 2015
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20150824 03:19:02< celticminstrel> Why does this unit need 16 XP to level up when the [unit_type] says 18 XP... (no traits)
20150824 03:20:30< janebot> Tweet (by @Wesnoth) Great pixel game Tower 57 needs your help to meet its Kickstarter goal. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/514621648/tower-57/description Go help them out! #gamedev [ https://twitter.com/Wesnoth/status/635652874630918144 ]
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20150824 04:25:36< janebot> Tweet (by @Wesnoth) (RT @frogatto) Over at our blog, posted a shout-out to @tower57devlog's KS, because these pixels must happen: http://www.frogatto.com/?p=1424 http://… [ https://twitter.com/Wesnoth/status/635669260828700672 ]
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20150824 05:55:44< celticminstrel> Hmm, it seems that putting lava= in [defense] / [movement_cost] does not work. I guess it resolves all the aliases before checking these things.
20150824 05:56:05< celticminstrel> ^movement_costs
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20150824 05:58:09< celticminstrel> ...or did I test wrong.
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20150824 05:59:08< celticminstrel> Yeah no, it's not working.
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20150824 06:10:21< celticminstrel> ...the terrain help leaves much to be desired.
20150824 06:10:54< vultraz> Indeed
20150824 06:11:22< celticminstrel> I want to make a unit that can walk on lava but can't cross other unwalkable terrains.
20150824 06:11:48< celticminstrel> I expect I could do it by defining a custom lava terrain, but then I imagine flying units probably wouldn't be able to cross it.
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20150824 06:16:14< celticminstrel> How am I supposed to patch a new terrain category into core movetypes?
20150824 06:16:29< celticminstrel> (Or for that matter, a new damage type.)
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20150824 13:26:28< aeth> I can now articulate why I don't like the new water. The deep and normal waters are too different. It's easy to spot (from a gameplay perspective) things that players might have missed before, but it only works when the water is done like in HttT, with giant chunks of the same water terrain together.
20150824 13:26:49< aeth> The Bay of Pearls looks beautiful. Way, way, way, way better with the new water. Unfortunately, most Wesnoth maps that use water are not The Bay of Pearls
20150824 13:27:38< aeth> Even in e.g. the moat of Elensefar in The Siege of Elensefar the water doesn't look as good imo in 1.13
20150824 13:28:05< aeth> And unfortunately moats, streams, and rivers that mix in deep and medium water for gameplay and/or looks is far more common than huge empty oceans.
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20150824 13:31:10< aeth> In multiplayer the best example of the new water is probably Loris River. The little lake in the top looks great with deep water in a large chunk. The small pieces of deep water in the river itself imo do not look better than in 1.12
20150824 13:32:55< aeth> The deep water in Path of Daggers is even worse
20150824 13:37:35< aeth> One problem is that even where there's a bridge, the water under the bridge can't change without changing the balance. Bridges over deep water make most water units (all the ones the player usually has) dodge 50% instead of 60% afaik.
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20150824 14:05:45< zookeeper> aeth, if you use medium shallow with tropical deep, is that more in line with how you think they should look next to each other?
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20150824 14:09:11< zookeeper> colour-wise, medium shallow and tropical deep are pretty close to each other
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20150824 14:17:19< aeth> zookeeper: you're right, they look better together
20150824 14:19:04< zookeeper> adjusting the ~CS colouring is easily done in terrain-graphics.cfg
20150824 14:20:28< aeth> I guess every mainline map with small patches of deep water is going to have to change (not as many as I would have guessed, I guess because of Drake balance)
20150824 14:21:15< aeth> e.g. changing the deep water in Loris River to Tropical Deep improves it a lot (keeping the lake deep water a darker color doesn't matter and kind of improves it)
20150824 14:24:04< aeth> zookeeper: if it's that easy, adding 1-2 water color sets might be a good idea in 1.13
20150824 14:24:12< zookeeper> or we just change the colours so that medium looks more like tropical
20150824 14:24:15< aeth> Wesnoth doesn't have that many water hexes so water looks boring
20150824 14:24:38< aeth> zookeeper: I like the dark medium water, but it's... not medium, it would be interesting to turn the medium deep water into a dark water and have a regular water that matches it
20150824 14:25:03< aeth> gray is dark, but it's also supposed to be gray, not a deep rich blue
20150824 14:25:21< aeth> e.g. the deep medium water really does look good in Bay of Pearls
20150824 14:25:48< aeth> Any place with an ocean. I think TROW has this too iirc.
20150824 14:26:08< aeth> It could literally be called "Ocean Deep Water" or something
20150824 14:28:47< aeth> Water's still the most boring part of Wesnoth. There's 2 swamps, 3 waters (deep/shallow), a ford, bridges, ice, a sunken castle (that looks more like an ice castle), and reefs. Two village types (only one being actually in water rather than over it)
20150824 14:30:05< zookeeper> well, yeah... aside from effects of weather, water does tend to be kinda samey everywhere :p
20150824 14:32:32< aeth> just off the top of my head there's some missing e.g. partially frozen ice and/or iceberg (snow/water double terrain)... *very* ocean deep water (even more of a bonus to sea monster dodge?), canal (the transitions make it more like a / or \ straight line, obviously artificial etc.), moat (a real one, not a fake one), stream (like a canal doesn't take up the whole hex, but artificial, perhaps counts as ford)
20150824 14:32:43< aeth> Yes water is samey, but it's not at the scale of Wesnoth.
20150824 14:32:56< aeth> The issue is what the water shares the hex with if anything, and what the transitions are
20150824 14:33:55< aeth> s/ocean deep water/deep ocean water/
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20150824 14:37:53< aeth> both iceberg and partially frozen ice (the difference is the latter connects to neighboring ice) could just be an overlay over the water... canal would be almost all transition work (i.e. a canal wall lining the water on a straight / or \ or | line), a moat would be complicated (but look way more moaty next to castles e.g. in the level in HttT against the Undead after you first fight L'isar)
20150824 14:39:01< aeth> And a narrower water stream would make a nice effect at the start of rivers where you can start smaller than a hex and then get into a very large river (idk where this is in mainline but it probably is there somewhere)
20150824 14:39:55< aeth> Also, this is fantasy, so you could literally have green water or black water or purple water or whatever fits the setting
20150824 14:40:23< aeth> (I guess green water would be unwalkable acid or something)
20150824 14:50:39< aeth> I think canals would be easy. Most of the work for that sort of thing is probably in there if the engine can handle rails, and a canal wall can be very simple (lots of straight lines etc.). Any sort of snow/water hybrid would have to probably use some tricks to make sure water units and land units both look OK on it.
20150824 14:51:37< aeth> Even though it's "canal", it would be one way to avoid the beach effect for sand/desert where it doesn't make sense.
20150824 14:55:48< aeth> hmm, sorry, I didn't know i could write so much about water.
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20150824 17:33:05< aeth> Is there any negative effects for having a very large map? e.g. > 100x100
20150824 17:33:12< aeth> The editor supports up to 200x200 apparently
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20150824 18:08:13< celmin|sleep> aeth: Canals can likely be done the same way as the branchable bridges.
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20150824 18:13:28< Edwylm> hello
20150824 18:14:45< Edwylm> question is a wesnoth moderator on at this time?
20150824 18:16:55< celmin|sleep> I dunno, why do you need one?
20150824 18:18:41< Edwylm> I am creating a campain for wesnoth and there are some somethings i should ask before posting it on the forums
20150824 18:19:26< aeth> celmin|sleep: oh true, they can even entirely be like bridges, they don't even need to be their own "water" since their only feature is altering the transition
20150824 18:20:02< aeth> celmin|sleep: you'll like the new area I added to the west btw
20150824 18:20:36< Edwylm> o nice, 
20150824 18:21:56< aeth> celmin|sleep: I am going to use boats for fast travel so I had to expand the map (and river) to the west. That way you can skip a lot of ground
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20150824 18:22:39< Edwylm> nice idea.
20150824 18:24:02< Edwylm> one of my main problems right now is the art work. Some of the images i have/edited came from places in wesnoth that i have no clue where they came from.
20150824 18:31:32< Ravana_> Edwylm: forum moderator here
20150824 18:31:58< celmin|sleep> I didn't know you were one.
20150824 18:32:16< Ravana_> been one since april
20150824 18:32:18< celmin|sleep> But I wonder if "wesnoth moderator" is the same as "forum moderator"...
20150824 18:32:31< Ravana_> other type would be multiplayer moderator
20150824 18:32:50< Ravana_> and I see one of those online too
20150824 18:34:21< Edwylm> Hi Ravana, I have been working on a campain and i would like to post on the forums about it but i feel like some of the images i have will violate some of the copy rights and simular stuff.
20150824 18:34:37< celmin|sleep> Where did you get the images?
20150824 18:34:41-!- celmin|sleep is now known as celticminstrel
20150824 18:34:50< Ravana_> If you got it all from wesnoth forums it should be all right
20150824 18:35:01< Ravana_> or wesnoth addon server
20150824 18:35:04< Edwylm> some came from the game itself some from the forums
20150824 18:35:35< celticminstrel> Graphics from the game itself are definitely fine.
20150824 18:35:52< celticminstrel> Graphics from other addons on the addon server are also fine, for the same reason.
20150824 18:36:14< Edwylm> ok now what about editing things from "desecendant of the dragon". i noticed that that is a long dead add-on 
20150824 18:36:39< Edwylm> that is like a exsample
20150824 18:36:42< celticminstrel> Where'd you get it from?
20150824 18:36:51< celticminstrel> Which addon server? 1.8 etc
20150824 18:37:16< Edwylm> there was a download able zip on the forums
20150824 18:37:24< celticminstrel> Ah.
20150824 18:37:38< Ravana_> anything posted to forums is assumed to be under GPL unless said otherwise
20150824 18:37:44< celticminstrel> Really?
20150824 18:38:05< celticminstrel> I was unaware of such a convention.
20150824 18:39:55< Edwylm> So that would mean that if i were to post edited versions that would violate the copyrights?
20150824 18:40:18< celticminstrel> Not if it's GPL. The game is GPL, and all addons on the addon server can be used under GPL.
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20150824 18:41:30< Edwylm> so i'm fine?
20150824 18:41:37< Ravana_> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=41444&p=579200&hilit=posted+gpl#p579200
20150824 18:41:50< Ravana_> still searching for the orignal post I meant
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20150824 18:42:41< Ravana_> yes, http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=40349&p=569667&hilit=posted+gpl#p569667
20150824 18:43:34< Edwylm> o ok. thanks. 
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20150824 18:52:44< aeth> hmm, as soon as I fix ale and implement boats (one-turn teleport to a few piers along the river so the start of the game isn't always the same) I'll probably do another test game of my RPG... maybe tomorrow
20150824 18:53:48< aeth> I'm considering making the boat do one unit at a time, and actually "move", taking a turn to return. So the team would actually split up if they don't all end turn next to/on it as it is leaving maybe
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--- Log closed Tue Aug 25 00:00:56 2015