--- Log opened Sat Aug 29 00:00:11 2015
20150829 00:03:38-!- mystic_x [~X@unaffiliated/mysticx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150829 00:22:09-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20150829 00:22:11-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD111239031159.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 00:36:40-!- mystic_x [~X@unaffiliated/mysticx] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 00:46:39-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150829 00:49:14-!- jinblack [~jinblack@128.111.48.6] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 00:52:39-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 01:10:38-!- hay207 [~quassel@41.34.31.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20150829 01:20:40-!- mystic_x [~X@unaffiliated/mysticx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150829 01:28:04-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD111239031159.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20150829 01:44:39-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20150829 02:30:54-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150829 02:32:29-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.129.243.95] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20150829 02:34:34-!- jinblack [~jinblack@128.111.48.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150829 02:35:38-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 02:44:49-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD111239015181.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 02:54:33-!- ArneBab [~quassel@55d40707.access.ecotel.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 02:57:54-!- ArneBab_ [~quassel@55d40dfc.access.ecotel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150829 03:11:31-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20150829 03:13:35-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 03:29:29-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!]
20150829 03:36:34-!- patwotrik [~patwotrik@c83-253-226-210.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 03:45:44< janebot> Tweet (by @Wesnoth) Developer @shikadilord brews up some trouble in upcoming revamp of his campaign IftU! #screenshotsaturday #gamedev https://i.imgur.com/jw2VVgf.png [ https://twitter.com/Wesnoth/status/637471163984121856 ]
20150829 04:13:23-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-107-94-87.adr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20150829 04:28:08-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-107-94-87.adr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 04:41:23-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-107-94-87.adr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20150829 04:43:04-!- patwotrik [~patwotrik@c83-253-226-210.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150829 04:43:31-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD111239015181.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150829 04:46:30-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-107-94-87.adr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 05:40:00-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD106161082038.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 06:23:48-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-107-94-87.adr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20150829 06:25:44-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-107-94-87.adr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 06:33:32-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B008E8D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 06:39:19-!- DreadKnight [~DreadKnig@unaffiliated/dreadknight] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 06:41:54-!- [Relic] [~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:2d1e:f296:c335:bdda] has quit [Quit: I press the magic X and all the weirdos go away!]
20150829 07:16:41-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150829 08:08:35-!- Haldrik [~haldrik@unaffiliated/haldrik] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 08:14:16-!- JackBauer24 [~JackBauer@89-71-82-98.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 08:26:30-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-107-94-87.adr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150829 08:30:48-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 08:31:44-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@50-107-94-87.adr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 08:36:19-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150829 08:39:27-!- claymore2 [~hexchat@host109-154-220-95.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 08:45:24-!- Satoshi_ABC [~Satoshi_A@p907139-ipngn200904tokaisakaetozai.aichi.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 08:45:47-!- Panda_ [~IMO@2a01:e35:8aae:fcb0:a6fd:e761:fbcd:cbc2] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 08:57:08-!- Satoshi_ABC [~Satoshi_A@p907139-ipngn200904tokaisakaetozai.aichi.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
20150829 09:16:33-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B008E8D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150829 09:22:25-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 10:00:15-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 10:02:33-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B008E8D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 10:42:36-!- hay207 [~quassel@41.34.31.235] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 10:45:32-!- DreadKnight [~DreadKnig@unaffiliated/dreadknight] has quit [Quit: #AncientBeast - Master Your Beasts ( www.AncientBeast.com )]
20150829 10:53:20-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD106161082038.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20150829 10:57:53-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20150829 11:05:17-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 11:11:27-!- claymore2 [~hexchat@host109-154-220-95.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20150829 11:15:37-!- mg__ [~mg@bjp90.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 11:17:03< mg__> Comparing Gryphon vs. Gryphon Master
20150829 11:17:16< mg__> comparable offences
20150829 11:17:24< mg__> Master has better movement
20150829 11:17:44< mg__> Master has better HP, with same resistances and defenses
20150829 11:18:15< mg__> Yet Master is slightly less expensive than plain Gryphon: 37 vs. 40 gold
20150829 11:18:20< mg__> That's weird
20150829 11:30:19< zookeeper> a bit, yes
20150829 11:30:39< zookeeper> although the gryphon master's gryphon is already fully trained, maybe that's why it's cheaper to manage than a wild one :p
20150829 11:31:13-!- prkc [~prkc@51B77E5A.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 11:31:32< mg__> cheaper to manage, maybe; but we're talking about recruit cost, not upkeep
20150829 11:31:43< zookeeper> sure
20150829 11:32:00< mg__> and it's more costly to catch a gryphon and train it than simply catch a gryphon
20150829 11:32:02< zookeeper> maybe the gryphon's recruit cost includes the costs of actually catching one :>
20150829 11:32:17< mg__> heh
20150829 11:32:44< mg__> and master's recruit cost includes the costs of catching a gryphon, taming it *and* training it, right?
20150829 11:33:13< zookeeper> nah, they come from the pen of gryphons trained from birth
20150829 11:33:24< mg__> still
20150829 11:34:41< zookeeper> i doubt there's all that much thought behind those costs aside from some rudimentary balancing, considering you can't recruit either in mainline (IIRC)
20150829 11:35:01< zookeeper> (aside from age of heroes, and no one cares about age of heroes)
20150829 11:35:30< mg__> but, srsly, you're a dev, couldn't you readjust these costs? Since as you say they're not used in multi, this wouldn't cause much trouble
20150829 11:37:04< zookeeper> i could, but first i should really consider all possible implications of that (check which scenarios they can be recruited by anyone, cross-reference some other lvl2 unit costs, etc)
20150829 11:38:11< mg__> i dunno...
20150829 11:38:17< mg__> gimme a sec...
20150829 11:42:52< mg__> All right.
20150829 11:42:53< mg__> http://pastebin.com/ipR6ztMv
20150829 11:42:59< mg__> what do you think of this?
20150829 11:43:28< mg__> I've been thinking of a simple Wesnoth unit analysis / comparision tool
20150829 11:43:32 * zookeeper blinks
20150829 11:43:36< zookeeper> looks like a lot of HTML
20150829 11:43:47< mg__> Just run it in browser...
20150829 11:44:03< mg__> It's not finished yet
20150829 11:44:19< mg__> though
20150829 11:44:48< mg__> Yes I know, the coding is quite horrible... I'll rewrite it sooner or later from scratch
20150829 11:47:15< zookeeper> how does the common wisdom of effective hp/damage/movement not being particularly useful data for balancing relate to that?
20150829 11:48:39< Ravana_> do you have easy way to create the data json from unit files?
20150829 11:49:20< zookeeper> i don't have any particular opinion on unit analysis or comparison tools
20150829 11:50:58< mg__> Ravana_: Not yet, these were written by hand, it's not finished yet
20150829 11:52:49< mg__> zookeeper: Example:
20150829 11:53:18< mg__> While Sentinel's steadfast is not included here
20150829 11:53:50< mg__> If we readjust sentinel's defenses by hand to include the effects of steadfast
20150829 11:55:26< mg__> It turns out that /even with steadfast/ Sentinel's overall defensive capabilities are comparable with these of Lord
20150829 11:55:35< mg__> not to mention w/o Steadfast
20150829 11:56:24< mg__> I might be mistaken, but for me this kinda defeats the purpose of using a sentinel
20150829 11:57:12< mg__> and calls for some rebalancing
20150829 11:57:53< mg__> I was just wondering... if this little idea of mine is worth putting some effort into it, or is it completely useless
20150829 11:59:32< mg__> I thought that even a rudimentary formula for approximating stacked effects of resistances and defenses could be useful; again, i might've been mistaken, though
20150829 12:00:12< Ravana_> I guess fixing, and perhaps adding some more features like comparing, for units.wesnoth.org would be more useful
20150829 12:00:25-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20150829 12:04:31< zookeeper> mg__, "overall defensive capabilities are comparable" <- well that depends on the differences in individual common resistances (which i don't recall). are they comparable vs blade, pierce, impact?
20150829 12:05:28< mg__> Well... According to my formulas...
20150829 12:05:38< mg__> On mountains, Lord performs better, period.
20150829 12:07:31< mg__> Usually, Lord is slightly better vs Fire, Cold, Arcane, almost same against impact, slightly worse vs. Blade; only vs. Pierce Sentinel is really better than Lord.
20150829 12:08:23< mg__> However, Sentinel shines on Flat and Forest, where it is always better than Lord
20150829 12:08:38< mg__> oh, and on Sand
20150829 12:09:03 * zookeeper wonders how long the damage types have been sorted alphabetically in the tooltip and unit description
20150829 12:09:21< mg__> The last special case are Hills, where Lord is better
20150829 12:11:15< mg__> And all of that's only with Steadfast
20150829 12:12:22-!- Panda_ [~IMO@2a01:e35:8aae:fcb0:a6fd:e761:fbcd:cbc2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150829 12:14:18< zookeeper> yeah, at lvl3 the sentinel seems comparatively worse in most situations
20150829 12:24:36-!- mg__ [~mg@bjp90.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20150829 12:25:51-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 12:26:21-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@106.161.87.50] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 12:33:03-!- patwotrik [~patwotrik@c83-253-226-210.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 12:33:55< zookeeper> however, you have to account for the damage types. being able to deal pierce sometimes makes a huge difference (same for impact)
20150829 12:34:46< zookeeper> if the point is that the stalwart/sentinel is pegged as the ultimate defensive unit but is actually in many situations a worse defender than the steelclad/lord, then sure, i agree
20150829 12:41:52-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@106.161.87.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20150829 12:50:35-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.129.243.95] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 12:58:10-!- mystic_x [~X@unaffiliated/mysticx] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 13:03:24-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.129.243.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20150829 13:17:41-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B008E8D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150829 13:21:58-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD106161087050.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 13:23:54-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: hay207, Xjs|moonshine
20150829 13:24:09-!- Netsplit over, joins: hay207
20150829 13:24:58-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: APic
20150829 13:25:12-!- Netsplit over, joins: APic
20150829 13:25:27-!- Xjs|moonshine [moon@chrysostomos.aoide.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 13:28:43-!- aeonchild [enchilado@defocus/yummy/enchilado] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20150829 13:31:24-!- sfan786 [~sfan786@c-24-131-93-63.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 13:41:20-!- sfan786 [~sfan786@c-24-131-93-63.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
20150829 13:56:47-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.129.243.95] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 14:18:58-!- sfan786 [~sfan786@c-24-131-93-63.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 14:19:36-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD106161087050.au-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20150829 14:21:13-!- JackBauer24 [~JackBauer@89-71-82-98.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20150829 14:36:50-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20150829 14:40:55-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B008BA5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 14:47:50-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150829 14:47:57-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 14:56:32-!- claymore2 [~hexchat@host109-154-220-95.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 15:13:20-!- [Relic] [~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:852:a89c:9a92:a01f] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 15:16:13-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@KD111239030216.au-net.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 15:33:04-!- sfan786 [~sfan786@c-24-131-93-63.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
20150829 15:35:30-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.129.243.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20150829 15:45:23-!- sfan786 [~sfan786@c-24-131-93-63.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 15:51:58-!- sfan786 [~sfan786@c-24-131-93-63.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
20150829 16:04:45-!- sfan786 [~sfan786@c-24-131-93-63.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 16:04:49-!- sfan786 [~sfan786@c-24-131-93-63.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
20150829 16:15:27-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B008BA5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150829 16:29:51-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B008BA5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 16:44:46-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B008BA5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150829 17:01:16-!- DeFender1031 [~DeFender1@46-116-164-85.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 17:26:05-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B008BA5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 17:27:10-!- JackBauer24 [~JackBauer@89-71-82-98.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 17:39:32-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20150829 17:46:51-!- Haudegen [~quassel@85.124.51.57] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 17:51:16-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 17:58:39-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 18:42:37-!- JackBauer24 [~JackBauer@89-71-82-98.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20150829 19:19:16-!- Kwandulin [~Miranda@p5B008BA5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150829 19:25:13-!- Narrat [~Crebiz@pD9F7FDE0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 19:55:20-!- aeonchild [enchilado@defocus/yummy/enchilado] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 20:03:03-!- jinblack [~jinblack@ip184-189-234-229.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 20:07:41-!- DreadKnight [~DreadKnig@unaffiliated/dreadknight] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 21:01:26-!- mic_e [~quassel@ipbcc184bc.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150829 21:01:32-!- TheJJ [~rofl@ipbcc184bc.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150829 21:01:35-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowm] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 21:06:41-!- jinblack [~jinblack@ip184-189-234-229.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150829 21:23:59-!- j3m4dux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 21:27:24-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20150829 21:37:05-!- claymore2 [~hexchat@host109-154-220-95.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20150829 21:46:52-!- jinblack [~jinblack@128.111.48.6] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 21:57:18-!- mystic_x [~X@unaffiliated/mysticx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150829 21:59:01< celticminstrel> I want something like an animatin halo, but drawn under the unit instead of over it...
20150829 21:59:04< celticminstrel> ^animation
20150829 21:59:25< celticminstrel> ...something about layer maybe...
20150829 21:59:46< celticminstrel> ...also... does the submerge key for frames actually work? It doesn't seem to be doing anything, but maybe I'm using it wrong.
20150829 22:06:16-!- TheJJ [~rofl@ipbcc184bc.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 22:09:20-!- jinblack [~jinblack@128.111.48.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20150829 22:15:14-!- TC01 [~quassel@london.acm.jhu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20150829 22:25:06-!- jinblack [~jinblack@128.111.48.6] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 22:39:26-!- DreadKnight [~DreadKnig@unaffiliated/dreadknight] has quit [Quit: #AncientBeast - Master Your Beasts ( www.AncientBeast.com )]
20150829 22:47:09-!- prkc [~prkc@51B77E5A.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20150829 22:57:12-!- TC01 [~quassel@london.acm.jhu.edu] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 23:01:35-!- TC01 [~quassel@london.acm.jhu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20150829 23:04:01-!- j3m4dux is now known as jemadux
20150829 23:04:15-!- TC01 [~quassel@london.acm.jhu.edu] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 23:04:16-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has quit [Quit: EOF from client]
20150829 23:10:30-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has joined #wesnoth
20150829 23:14:14-!- patwotrik [~patwotrik@c83-253-226-210.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20150829 23:29:11-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20150829 23:29:48-!- hay207 [~quassel@41.34.31.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20150829 23:36:58-!- Johannes13 [Johannes@unaffiliated/johannes13] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20150829 23:57:23-!- Haldrik [~haldrik@unaffiliated/haldrik] has quit [Quit: Haldrik]
--- Log closed Sun Aug 30 00:00:14 2015