--- Log opened Fri Sep 11 00:00:33 2015
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20150911 03:06:56< celticminstrel> Incidentally, it doesn't look like I need to add anything to the AI to make it understand my new version of backstab.
20150911 03:07:14< celticminstrel> So yay for that.
20150911 03:13:31< mattsc> Cool!
20150911 03:15:17< celticminstrel> (The test was to put a elf shaman on grass surrounded by grass, with an enemy bat to the southwest and an enemy thief to the southeast. The thief moved to northeast of the shaman to attack.)
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20150911 03:16:41< mattsc> I believe that the AI simulates the real attack, with all specials, ToD, abilities, traits, applies and then chooses the one with the best rating.
20150911 03:17:02< mattsc> So it makes sense that it would dot that.
20150911 03:17:41< mattsc> s/, applies/, etc. applied
20150911 03:17:43< shadowm> The thing is that it won't specifically choose to attack from that particular direction or make the requisite scenario take place.
20150911 03:18:20< shadowm> (If I understood correctly last time we broached the subject.)
20150911 03:19:00< mattsc> Not sure I understand ...
20150911 03:19:30< celticminstrel> I think the new adjacent= directions could use better names though. Currently they're cw,ccw,-cw,-ccw,opp. I imagine the negative sign could be confusing.
20150911 03:19:30< shadowm> That the last time we discussed this I was told that the AI isn't aware of the backstab mechanics.
20150911 03:19:47< celticminstrel> I don't know if it was aware of the old backstab mechanics.
20150911 03:19:56< shadowm> I.e. that any situations where it took advantage of it were merely coincidence.
20150911 03:20:48< celticminstrel> Maybe it doesn't take measures to specifically make sure that an opposite unit is in place before considering an attack with a backstab special.
20150911 03:20:58< mattsc> I might have said that it would not move two units into place in order to make that happen …
20150911 03:20:59< celticminstrel> But if the unit happens to already be in place, then it can take advantage of that.
20150911 03:21:02< mattsc> right, that ...
20150911 03:21:08< shadowm> Yes, that's what I'm saying, celticminstrel.
20150911 03:21:09< mattsc> But I think if I said that, that would be wrong
20150911 03:21:48< mattsc> because the AI does consider attack combinations, IIRC, and that combination certainly would give a better outcome than all non-opposite ones with two units.
20150911 03:22:07< mattsc> What it will not do is move in leaders _behind_ the line that are not part of the actual attack.
20150911 03:22:21< mattsc> Sorry, units with leadership, is what I mean
20150911 03:23:01< mattsc> But it might still move in a leader for the attack with two units, one on each side.
20150911 03:23:04< celticminstrel> It finally does have some semblance of healer support, right? Or was that a micro_ai?
20150911 03:23:06< mattsc> Let me try something ...
20150911 03:23:23< mattsc> No, that’s the same as with leadership, the default AI does not do that.
20150911 03:23:32< mattsc> But I did write an MAI to that effect.
20150911 03:23:45< celticminstrel> So maybe it could be part of the default AI, eventually.
20150911 03:23:51< shadowm> It doesn't know healing?
20150911 03:24:22< shadowm> Will it at least try to make units rest adjacent to healers?
20150911 03:24:42< mattsc> It knows healing.  It does not know how to place healers efficiently.
20150911 03:24:45< mattsc> I don’t think so.
20150911 03:25:06< mattsc> The Healer Supprort Micro AI does, the default AI does not
20150911 03:25:53< celticminstrel> Healing is more difficult than leadership.
20150911 03:26:00< celticminstrel> Or resistance abilities, even.
20150911 03:26:21< shadowm> Oh well I don't think the AI ever rests anyway.
20150911 03:26:28< celticminstrel> The latter two have an immediate effect on attacks.
20150911 03:27:03< vultraz> We have... 10 choices for AI when it comes to setting up MP games P_P
20150911 03:27:13< celticminstrel> I only see three.
20150911 03:27:29< shadowm> vultraz is probably using debug mode.
20150911 03:27:52< vultraz> Ah, yes. That makes more sense
20150911 03:28:02< shadowm> Fun fact: vultraz cheats 90% of the time.
20150911 03:28:15< vultraz> So do you
20150911 03:28:17< celticminstrel> The AI does retreat wounded units to villages/oases, right? Would it retreat them to tiles adjacent to healers as well? Or at least healers with no moves left.
20150911 03:28:19< shadowm> So he always starts Wesnoth with -d.
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20150911 03:28:26< shadowm> vultraz: I actually don't since 2009.
20150911 03:28:57< vultraz> Yes, I always start with -d, but why would that mean I cheat :|
20150911 03:28:57< mattsc> Only 90% of the time?  I am disappointed.
20150911 03:28:59< shadowm> So I generally avoid -d and just use :debug and :nodebug.
20150911 03:29:18< celticminstrel> And here I was worried that :debug twice would turn it off again. >_>
20150911 03:29:24< mattsc> celticminstrel: no, it does not retreat to hexes next to healers.
20150911 03:29:26< vultraz> I have --debug hardcoded into my desktop shortcut
20150911 03:29:36< vultraz> s/coded/set
20150911 03:29:48< shadowm> Bad idea.
20150911 03:30:05< shadowm> Delete your desktop shortcut and instead use the command line like a dev!
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20150911 03:30:52< vultraz> You mean like a Linux dev
20150911 03:31:04< shadowm> Like a dev.
20150911 03:31:09< shadowm> Not a Linux dev.
20150911 03:31:18< celticminstrel> No-one has comments on the direction names?
20150911 03:31:19< vultraz> We Windows folk are much more GUI-oriented 
20150911 03:31:26< celticminstrel> MacOSX is too.
20150911 03:31:33< shadowm> Unless you think Windows developers keep around 100 shortcuts around at all times, which is by all means a ridiculous thought.
20150911 03:32:14< vultraz> I have the shortcuts on my desktop with my other games, and then both of them pinned to the taskbar for 1-click access
20150911 03:32:28< mattsc> Well, I always start from the CL, always use -d, and pretty much always cheat.  :)
20150911 03:32:43< shadowm> I have pinned stuff (the closest Plasma 4 equivalent anyway) but it's most notably not games.
20150911 03:32:50< vultraz> No need to right click, open command line, cd to my wesnoth folder, and type in ./wesnoth.exe --debug --log-debug=wml
20150911 03:33:05< shadowm> Only basic utilities: a file manager, a terminal emulator, a web browser, and a syntax highlighting text editor.
20150911 03:33:36< mattsc> anyways, I just went into my test scenario and gave the AI a situation where backstab could kill the grunt, and non-backstab attacks would not.  Equal terrain everywhere.  It certainly did the backstab situation.
20150911 03:33:40< mattsc> That was in 1.12.4.
20150911 03:33:52< vultraz> celticminstrel: what do they do?
20150911 03:34:15< mattsc> celticminstrel: no, I don’t sorry.
20150911 03:34:40< mattsc> celticminstrel: on a different topic, I noticed that double cmd-q does shut down the window without having to confirm the dialog.
20150911 03:34:53< mattsc> I didn’t follow the discussion closely enough, is that intentional.
20150911 03:34:58< mattsc> ?
20150911 03:35:04< shadowm> I don't use -d very often because: 1) image not found overlays are annoying; 2) I'd rather misclick my leader into certain death than misclick an enemy unit into oblivion.
20150911 03:35:33< vultraz> I use it since I develop more than I play
20150911 03:35:36< celticminstrel> vultraz: Explanation here: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/488
20150911 03:35:49< celticminstrel> mattsc: I honestly have no idea if it's intentional.
20150911 03:35:49< shadowm> And --log-debug=wml? I don't want to have to :clear at the start of every scenario.
20150911 03:36:06< mattsc> Well, I do *a lot* of AI testing, and being able to set up the situation as I want/need is essential for that.
20150911 03:36:12< mattsc> So I am pretty much always in debug mode.
20150911 03:36:20< celticminstrel> Wait, do image not found overlays only appear if debug mode is enabled?
20150911 03:36:31< shadowm> Yes.
20150911 03:36:32< vultraz> Yes
20150911 03:36:34< mattsc> celticminstrel: whether it’s intentional or not, please don’t change it.  :)
20150911 03:36:44< shadowm> It's intentional.
20150911 03:36:50< celticminstrel> I don't see any reason to change it.
20150911 03:36:58< mattsc> good
20150911 03:37:17< mattsc> cmd-q cmd-q is so much easier then cmd-q return !
20150911 03:37:24< celticminstrel> Not really. :P
20150911 03:37:39< mattsc> I was not being facetious.  :)
20150911 03:39:09< mattsc> Anyways, coming back to the point about the AI, the default AI does know how to take things into account that affect the current attack directly (with units involved in the attack).
20150911 03:39:32< mattsc> It will also take leadership, etc. into account for a unit that is already in place where it would provide leadership.
20150911 03:39:56< mattsc> But it will not move a leadership unit into place for an attack, unless that unit is actively involved in the attack.
20150911 03:42:06< celticminstrel> I just attempted to add a deprecated warning for backstab, in unit_ability::effect. I'm not seeing it though.
20150911 03:42:23< mattsc> Has any of you tried a game against Fred yet?
20150911 03:42:23< celticminstrel> I guess debug time.
20150911 03:42:26< celticminstrel> Nope.
20150911 03:42:29< shadowm> Did you make sure to add a line break at the end?
20150911 03:42:34< mattsc> It’s a very different experience than playing against the default.
20150911 03:42:54< mattsc> Not saying that it is a bette rexperience, but it’s definitely different.
20150911 03:42:57< celticminstrel> I also spent most of today trying to lear scons.
20150911 03:42:59< celticminstrel> ^+n
20150911 03:43:29< celticminstrel> shadowm: Oh! I didn't add one. That seems a likely cause.
20150911 03:46:02< celticminstrel> I think the AI documentation on the wiki needs a lot of work. (Except for micro_ais.)
20150911 03:49:16< celticminstrel> Deprecated warning works now. It shows when a unit is selected, and floods during attack.
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20150911 03:51:06< celticminstrel> Should I add a flag so that it displays only once?
20150911 03:51:42< mattsc> celticminstrel: the AI documentation on the wiki is a horrendous mess.
20150911 03:51:46< celticminstrel> Yeah.
20150911 03:52:06< mattsc> But it would be a lot of work to clean that up, and I haven’t been able to make myself do that.
20150911 03:52:21< mattsc> AiWML is in a pretty decent shape, I cleaned that up at some point.
20150911 03:52:37< celticminstrel> Would it be easier to start over, or is that just as much work?
20150911 03:52:40< mattsc> but all the rest is so convoluted and unorganized, it would pretty much need a complete rewrite.
20150911 03:52:47< celticminstrel> Oh okay.
20150911 03:53:05< mattsc> So yes, I do think it would be easier to start over again.
20150911 03:53:37< mattsc> I did try to organize it better at some point, but that was at a time when 1. I didn’t understand it all that well yet and 2. a lot of things were still changing.
20150911 03:53:56< mattsc> So needless to say, it didn’t end up very well.
20150911 03:54:18< mattsc> *working out very well
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20150911 03:57:27< celticminstrel> Is there a difference between controller=null and ai_algorithm=idle_ai?
20150911 03:58:03< mattsc> yes
20150911 03:58:14< mattsc> the latter only has the AI do nothing
20150911 03:58:25< mattsc> the former also does not fire event for that side’s turn
20150911 04:02:11< mattsc> … and doesn’t do healing etc., I think.  I disables the side turn altogether, not just the AI.
20150911 04:02:29< shadowm> Yes.
20150911 04:07:07< celticminstrel> Ah.
20150911 04:18:17< celticminstrel> Is [modify_ai]path= always just a single aspect[id].facet[id] value?
20150911 04:19:53< celticminstrel> I get the impression that there's a fixed list of possible aspects; you can't create your own custom aspects. Is that correct?
20150911 04:20:37< celticminstrel> Ah, I see path= can be other things, but the key point of the question is whether it's just a single one rather than a comma-separated list.
20150911 04:25:23< mattsc> AFAIC, it’s just a single one.
20150911 04:25:37< celticminstrel> What's the C in AFAIC?
20150911 04:26:33< mattsc> It’s the English version of the ‘K’ in know?  :P
20150911 04:26:48< celticminstrel> Huh?
20150911 04:27:04< mattsc> I mistyped.
20150911 04:27:10< celticminstrel> Ah..
20150911 04:27:12< mattsc> AFAIK
20150911 04:28:18< mattsc> I’m making too many typos tonight, I should probably just go to bed.  (I’m up since 4:15 this morning)
20150911 04:28:37< celticminstrel> And you can't create your own custom aspects?
20150911 04:29:09< mattsc> No, they have to be registered in the AI registry, which is hardcoded in C++.
20150911 04:29:29< celticminstrel> What prevents the experimental AI from being combined with other AI stuff in the same side?
20150911 04:30:17< mattsc> Umm, that’s one of its specific purposes (to be combined with the default AI).  So nothing, I guess.
20150911 04:30:45< celticminstrel> So is this statement obsolete, then? "Currently, there is a restriction in the Wesnoth source code that makes it impossible to add the standard aspects together with the Experimental AI inside the same [side] tag, even if they are in different [ai] tags. We are working on lifting that restriction."
20150911 04:31:11 * celticminstrel also wonders whether [ai]version= actually does anything.
20150911 04:31:26< mattsc> No, that’s true.
20150911 04:31:59< mattsc> But it is simply a question of how information is read in from WML, not how it works in the AI.
20150911 04:32:24< mattsc> and I don’t think the version= key does anything any more these days.
20150911 04:32:24< celticminstrel> Do you know why it is?
20150911 04:33:08< mattsc> yes, Crab intentionally disabled it when he redid the AI
20150911 04:33:18< mattsc> back in 1.7 or so.
20150911 04:33:25< celticminstrel> ...uh, okay...
20150911 04:33:45< mattsc> He had something else in mind, I think, that then didn’t happen; like a complete switch-over from the old to a new system
20150911 04:33:55< mattsc> but that was before my time, so I don’t know the details.
20150911 04:34:48< mattsc> It’s the first of the AI tasks on the EasyCoding page.
20150911 04:35:00< celticminstrel> Okay, so as far as I can see, the [ai] tag can contain three basic things: [engine], [stage], and [aspect].
20150911 04:35:23< celticminstrel> Then there's several attributes that expand to aspects, a few extra tags that also expand to aspects...
20150911 04:35:29< mattsc> Unfortunately, I got to go now though.  I’d be more than happy to talk about this some other time though.
20150911 04:35:39< celticminstrel> Some attributes that are inserted into all the facets...
20150911 04:35:41< mattsc> As in, I actually like talking about this topic.  :)
20150911 04:35:41< celticminstrel> Okay.
20150911 04:35:59< mattsc> Sorry; talk to you later.
20150911 04:36:04< celticminstrel> Bye.
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20150911 06:25:57< irker647> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:sdl2 e9f77d1dbff7 / data/ai/micro_ais/ (cas/ca_fast_combat_leader.lua micro_ai_wml_tag.lua): Fast Micro AI: add optional parameters for attacks by AI leader http://git.io/vZZF8
20150911 06:25:57< irker647> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth:sdl2 74b54da6911c / data/ai/micro_ais/ (cas/ca_fast_combat_leader.lua micro_ai_wml_tag.lua): Fast Micro AI: fix a typo in a parameter name http://git.io/vZZhY
20150911 06:25:57< irker647> wesnoth: Elias Pschernig wesnoth:sdl2 00516dddbe66 / data/tools/unit_tree/update-wmlunits: [units.wesnoth.org] always clean up error log http://git.io/vZnsj
20150911 06:25:58< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 fe3f317cbc71 / src/ (carryover.cpp carryover.hpp): use config object to store menu items in carryover http://git.io/vZnGR
20150911 06:25:59< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 402a97e1fc94 / src/game_events/wmi_container.cpp: fix some code formatting http://git.io/vZnG0
20150911 06:26:01< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 adc5eca39923 / src/ (config.cpp config.hpp): add optional string key parameter to config::append_children http://git.io/vZnGE
20150911 06:26:03< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 368a4ab284ec / src/reports.hpp: fix indention http://git.io/vZnGu
20150911 06:26:05< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 12e839b9b7ab / src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): remove level_ member of game_lua_kernel http://git.io/vZnGz
20150911 06:26:07< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 4103ae29f50c / src/ (play_controller.cpp play_controller.hpp): remove unused play_controller::start_turn_ variable http://git.io/vZnGg
20150911 06:26:09< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 4afe65b4da30 / src/ (6 files): move it_is_a_new_turn_ variable to tod_manager http://git.io/vZnG2
20150911 06:26:11< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 12b901933a1f / src/ (14 files in 4 dirs): make the unit id manager a member of game_board http://git.io/vZnGa
20150911 06:26:13< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 41e363a3fd71 / src/reports.cpp: fix a segfault caused by wesnoth.theme_items http://git.io/vZnGV
20150911 06:26:15< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 9ac0434c1d18 / src/play_controller.cpp: use play_controller::player_number_ to write [snapshot]playing_team= http://git.io/vZnGw
20150911 06:26:17< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 58874bdd0bec / src/ (game_state.cpp game_state.hpp play_controller.cpp): remove level_ from game_state class http://git.io/vZnGr
20150911 06:26:19< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 d2545777625f / src/playsingle_controller.cpp: simplify fallback_ai_to_human_exception handling http://git.io/vZCNO
20150911 06:26:21< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 1172369dca92 / src/playsingle_controller.cpp: refactor playsingle_controller::play_side() http://git.io/vZCN3
20150911 06:26:23< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 ded13b1cc84e / src/playsingle_controller.cpp: refactor playsingle_controller::before_human_turn http://git.io/vZCNs
20150911 06:26:25< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 edd32073fafc / src/ (6 files): move play_side to play_controller http://git.io/vZCNG
20150911 06:26:27< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 d74b85fffc47 / src/play_controller.cpp: set "side_number" in play_controller::do_init_side http://git.io/vZCNZ
20150911 06:26:29< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 c910dc6533ea / src/playsingle_controller.cpp: remove a unneeded if http://git.io/vZCNn
20150911 06:26:31< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 11daa5113a20 / src/ (play_controller.cpp playturn.cpp): refactor maybe_do_init_side http://git.io/vZCNc
20150911 06:26:33< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 c8f9b2b53078 / src/ (5 files): move function play_turn from playsingle_controller to play_controller http://git.io/vZCNC
20150911 06:26:35< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 9d9422a42324 / src/ (replay_controller.cpp replay_controller.hpp): refactor replay_controller http://git.io/vZCNW
20150911 06:26:37< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 942220da801c / src/ (play_controller.cpp play_controller.hpp): remove unused parameter http://git.io/vZCNl
20150911 06:26:39< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 fab8b9dc303d / src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): dont keep [scenario]/[snapshot] config during play http://git.io/vZCN8
20150911 06:26:41< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 99c75bf9ae5a / src/ (5 files): use scoped_ptr for gamestate_ http://git.io/vZCN4
20150911 06:26:43< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 20fafdee28c7 / src/ (19 files in 3 dirs): simplify game_state construction http://git.io/vZCNB
20150911 06:26:45< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 8e875b845864 / src/ (5 files): move init_side_done_ to game_state class http://git.io/vZCNR
20150911 06:26:47< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 941f00e49164 / src/ (7 files): move player_number_ to game_state http://git.io/vZCN0
20150911 06:26:49< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 ec8bf1e1f741 / src/ (9 files): move reset_gamestate function (reset_replay) to play_controller http://git.io/vZCNE
20150911 06:26:51< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 cdb324c9d1f2 / src/ (replay_controller.cpp replay_controller.hpp): fix wml unit tests http://git.io/vZCNu
20150911 06:26:53< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 910641db40eb / src/ (6 files): fix view beeing temporarily reset in replay viewer http://git.io/vZCNz
20150911 06:26:55< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 d85a71144646 / src/ (hotkey_handler_replay.cpp replay_controller.cpp replay_controller.hpp): improve replay button state check http://git.io/vZCNg
20150911 06:26:57< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 dbe107fa4bbf / src/replay_controller.hpp: remove undefined function http://git.io/vZCNa
20150911 06:26:59< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 769d79a354b4 / src/replay_controller.cpp: simplify replay_controller::update_teams http://git.io/vZCNV
20150911 06:27:01< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 b97bb35de91d / src/ (play_controller.cpp play_controller.hpp replay_controller.cpp): refactor play_controller::reset_gamestate http://git.io/vZCNw
20150911 06:27:03< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 7b9b85cd63cd / src/ (game_state.cpp game_state.hpp play_controller.cpp play_controller.hpp): move loading_game_ member to game_state class http://git.io/vZCNr
20150911 06:27:05< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 78755019c98e / src/ (6 files): add mp_replay_controller class http://git.io/vZCNo
20150911 06:27:07< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 81b6c3ab9957 / src/ (7 files): enable back to turn buttons in networked mp http://git.io/vZCNK
20150911 06:27:09< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 02990bafbfc2 / src/ (game_state.cpp game_state.hpp play_controller.cpp play_controller.hpp): fix some compiler warnings http://git.io/vZCN6
20150911 06:27:11< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 47cf5acf791a / src/tests/ (test_recall_list.cpp test_unit_map.cpp): disable broken test http://git.io/vZCNi
20150911 06:27:13< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 41d65f1d7505 / src/whiteboard/ (highlighter.cpp highlighter.hpp manager.cpp): fix a segfault when resetting replay http://git.io/vZCNX
20150911 06:27:15< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 7fc78c558659 / src/ (43 files in 6 dirs): Merge pull request #487 from gfgtdf/mp_replay_turn http://git.io/vZCN1
20150911 06:27:17< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 90566fd08257 / src/ (game_state.cpp game_state.hpp play_controller.cpp play_controller.hpp): store the server request counter in the snapshot http://git.io/vZWcy
20150911 06:27:19< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 0f3d262946b0 / src/playsingle_controller.cpp: add a comment http://git.io/vZWcS
20150911 06:27:21< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 7a314517da83 / RELEASE_NOTES: Update RELEASE_NOTES http://git.io/vZWWY
20150911 06:27:23< irker647> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:sdl2 348f3b480b3d / projectfiles/Xcode/Wesnoth.xcodeproj/project.pbxproj: Update XCode project http://git.io/vZWXD
20150911 06:27:25< irker647> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:sdl2 480a2a746c4e / projectfiles/Xcode/Wesnoth.xcodeproj/project.pbxproj: XCode project: Remove -Werror setting http://git.io/vZWd6
20150911 06:27:27< irker647> wesnoth: Elias Pschernig wesnoth:sdl2 3ab3db3166ed / data/tools/ (8 files in 3 dirs): [units.wesnoth.org] Converted the script to Python 3. http://git.io/vZWFY
20150911 06:27:29< irker647> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:sdl2 9ca044abdb4f / projectfiles/CodeBlocks/wesnoth.cbp: Updated codeblock projectfile http://git.io/vZlJy
20150911 06:27:32< irker647> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:sdl2 4f078f26ef13 / data/tools/GUI.pyw: GUI.pyw: small label tweaks http://git.io/vZ8Rt
20150911 06:27:35< irker647> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:sdl2 58e17f3e2103 / data/campaigns/tutorial/maps/01_Tutorial_part_1.map: T S1: removed two extra villages near map border to prevent confusion http://git.io/vZ80t
20150911 06:27:38< irker647> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:sdl2 19e7adfe52fb / data/core/terrain-graphics.cfg: Use overgrown base for Ruined Human Castle (Chr) http://git.io/vZ81m
20150911 06:27:41< irker647> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:sdl2 2cf8bcdecb62 / changelog: Update changelog http://git.io/vZRed
20150911 06:27:43< irker647> wesnoth: Elias Pschernig wesnoth:sdl2 f8fb04093ab1 / data/tools/ (4 files in 3 dirs): [units.wesnoth.org] fix some small issues http://git.io/vZ0kt
20150911 06:27:45< irker647> wesnoth: Andreas Löf wesnoth:sdl2 0bb02fb54869 / / (79 files in 18 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into sdl2 http://git.io/vZEEJ
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20150911 06:30:56< Aginor> so much merge spam
20150911 06:31:23< Aginor> shadowm: do you have a suggestion for avoiding it?
20150911 06:32:01< shadowm> Not really, I'm just not sure why you need those merges.
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20150911 06:52:07< Aginor> shadowm: I'm trying to keep synced with main so I can deal with any eventual conflicts that crop up
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20150911 06:56:24< irker647> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:sdl2 c35387982cfa / / (8 files in 6 dirs): Generalize Quit to Desktop hotkey so it works in-game and at titlescreen http://git.io/vZE2N
20150911 06:56:26< irker647> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:sdl2 59f6b7e720b7 / src/ (controller_base.cpp hotkey/command_executor.cpp hotkey/hotkey_command.cpp): Move special-case handling of Escape key used to quit game http://git.io/vZE2A
20150911 06:56:28< irker647> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:sdl2 c85c05765247 / src/controller_base.hpp: Fix a doxy-comment erroneously claiming a function is non-virtual http://git.io/vZE2x
20150911 06:56:30< irker647> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:sdl2 24a54e1108c7 / data/core/hotkeys.cfg src/hotkey/hotkey_item.cpp: Show the non-rebindable shortcuts in preferences. http://git.io/vZE2p
20150911 06:56:32< irker647> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:sdl2 40ea98568a97 / data/themes/ (classic.cfg default.cfg unit_box.cfg widescreen.cfg): Add "Quit to Desktop" to the themes. http://git.io/vZE2h
20150911 06:56:34< irker647> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:sdl2 7c4523d4d409 / src/wesnoth.cpp: Never show confirmation on SIGTERM http://git.io/vZE2j
20150911 06:56:36< irker647> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:sdl2 d8a85e314443 / src/ (events.cpp hotkey/hotkey_item.cpp): Give Alt+F4 similar special treatment to Cmd+Q http://git.io/vZEae
20150911 06:56:38< irker647> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:sdl2 befb1a8acedb / src/wesnoth.cpp: Let's explicitly include that just to be safe http://git.io/vZEav
20150911 06:56:40< irker647> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:sdl2 8c39e05f891c / src/wesnoth.cpp: Terminate immediately on SIGINT too http://git.io/vZEaf
20150911 06:56:42< irker647> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:sdl2 9ffec1e33eed / projectfiles/Xcode/Wesnoth.xcodeproj/project.pbxproj: Update XCode project to build against SDL2 instead of SDL1.2 http://git.io/vZEaJ
20150911 06:56:44< irker647> wesnoth: Andreas Löf wesnoth:sdl2 9204d0af4559 / projectfiles/Xcode/Mac Sources/SDLMain.m src/wesnoth.cpp: Remove SDL_main from OSX entry point under SDL2 http://git.io/vZEaU
20150911 06:56:46< irker647> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:sdl2 b0ecf09ee946 / / (7 files in 4 dirs): Finish changes for XCode SDL2 compilation to work http://git.io/vZEaT
20150911 06:56:48< irker647> wesnoth: Andreas Löf wesnoth:sdl2 22cff55dc875 / / (22 files in 9 dirs): Merge pull request #475 into sdl2 from CelticMinstrel:quit-confirm2 http://git.io/vZEak
20150911 06:57:01< Aginor> there we go
20150911 06:57:06< Aginor> finally got that PR closed
20150911 06:57:38 * Aginor is away for a while
20150911 06:57:49< Aginor> aka, the good old commit and run
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20150911 07:16:47< zookeeper> btw, for me too, firefox has suddenly started to want to download the irclog files instead of displaying them as text. strangely, if i just cancel and click the link again (needs 1-3 tries), it'll display it.
20150911 07:17:34< zookeeper> doesn't even happen every time
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20150911 08:04:11< Soliton> gfgtdf: of course i meant to write that comment as documentation in the source code...
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20150911 15:25:20< wedge009> Aginor, shadowm (and anyone else interested in SDL2 work): PR#489 will fix the pesky alpha-blending-not-working issue with rectangles with SDL2. Not sure if it will help with other blending issues you've noticed.
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20150911 15:40:57 * celticminstrel isn't quite sure whether [goal] is an aspect or something separate.
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20150911 15:41:21< irker032> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 203411d0428a / data/core/ (images/portraits/monsters/transparent/yeti.png units/monsters/Yeti.cfg): New generic portrait for Yeti by LordBob http://git.io/vZzj8
20150911 15:41:22< irker032> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 1c8bf80634cd / data/core/ (7 files in 3 dirs): Added new generic portrait for Ancient Wose by LordBob http://git.io/vZzjB
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20150911 15:50:28< wedge009> That's an impressive ancient wose.
20150911 15:51:21< vultraz> LB does great work :)
20150911 15:53:34< vultraz> And so the art train rolls through again.
20150911 15:56:32< celticminstrel> There doesn't seem to be a default [engine] tag when only the cpp engine is used.
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20150911 16:16:27< mattsc> celticminstrel: hi — sorry for running away like that.  There was some drama developing in the background and I needed to get off the computer and deal with that.
20150911 16:16:45< celticminstrel> Belay my previous comment. I see one now.
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20150911 16:17:11< celticminstrel> One thing is weird - the [engine] tag contains an engine= key.
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20150911 16:17:55< mattsc> celticminstrel: a lot of these things are probably left over from previous incarnations of the AI and not needed any more.
20150911 16:18:13< mattsc> The AI code is probably even more in need of a cleanup than the wiki
20150911 16:18:30< celticminstrel> I don't see "goal" in the list of aspects in :inspect, so I suppose it's probably not an aspect. I do see "leader_goal" though.
20150911 16:19:08< celticminstrel> The value for the recruitment aspect looks almost like a candidate action.
20150911 16:19:09< mattsc> yeah, a lot of this is quite inconsistent
20150911 16:19:33< mattsc> recruitment got redone quite recently by flixx; last year I think
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20150911 16:20:30< mattsc> A lot of this is patched together over long times and by lots of different people
20150911 16:20:33< celticminstrel> The reason simplified syntax won't work with the Lua engine is because you need to engine=lua within the [aspect] or [facet] tag, right?
20150911 16:20:38 * celticminstrel nods.
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20150911 16:21:01< celticminstrel> Nearly all aspects are simple values, it seems...
20150911 16:21:08< mattsc> I think that doesn’t work either, but I forgot
20150911 16:21:24< mattsc> yeah, the aspects started as simple values with the aspect_name= syntax
20150911 16:21:38< mattsc> then Crab redid the entire system in … 2009 or so
20150911 16:21:41< celticminstrel> The "attacks" aspect doesn't seem to have a value at all.
20150911 16:21:51< mattsc> and he introduced the [as]ect] [facet] syntax
20150911 16:22:12< mattsc> I believe that he meant to switch over to that syntax entirely, and deprecate the old syntax
20150911 16:22:33< mattsc> so that’s why he set it up to not work when a Lua engine is defined
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20150911 16:22:50< celticminstrel> The old syntax is much easier and more convenient.
20150911 16:22:56< mattsc> but later he told me that that (deprecating the old syntax) is not necessary any more
20150911 16:23:04< mattsc> yes, agreed
20150911 16:23:34< mattsc> I am sure he had some reason for this, but he said now that reason does not exist any more.
20150911 16:23:55< mattsc> (there are WML macros for using the new syntax easily, but still)
20150911 16:24:18< celticminstrel> I just discovered a bug with the scroll wheel in 1.12.
20150911 16:24:45< celticminstrel> After you've used it, it'll start scrolling just by moving the mouse until you scroll by some other means.
20150911 16:24:59< celticminstrel> (By dragging the thumb or using the arrows.)
20150911 16:28:32< mattsc> celticminstrel: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/AiWML#Filtering_Combat_with_the_.27attacks.27_Aspect
20150911 16:28:52< celticminstrel> Yeah, no value.
20150911 16:28:57< celticminstrel> Just filters.
20150911 16:29:05< celticminstrel> Do those filters work on other aspects too?
20150911 16:29:09< mattsc> that and the following couple sections is the extent of what I Know about aspects
20150911 16:29:14< mattsc> yes
20150911 16:29:27< mattsc> no
20150911 16:29:54< mattsc> ‘yes’ was on ‘just filters’, ‘no’ on ‘Do those filters …'
20150911 16:32:44< celticminstrel> In the list of aspects, it claims [attacks] can be used, but later on (in your link) it uses the full aspect syntax for it.
20150911 16:35:41< mattsc> “It cannot be set in the same way as the other aspects”
20150911 16:35:47< mattsc> from the list of aspects
20150911 16:36:01< celticminstrel> Hmm.
20150911 16:36:33< mattsc> As far as I know, that’s a true statement.
20150911 16:36:59< celticminstrel> Currently [avoid] takes an SLF directly. Generalizing simplified syntax seems to suggest moving that SLF into a nested [value] tag.
20150911 16:38:09< celticminstrel> [aspect]name= and [facet]name= so far seem redundant, being always set to composite_aspect and standard_aspect respectively. Are there other possible values for them?
20150911 16:40:28< mattsc> not that I am aware of
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20150911 16:49:26< celticminstrel> protect_leader and protect_leader_radius are now deprecated but apparently defaulted to 2.0 and 10 respectively. That makes it seem as though AIs no longer protect their leader. (Though I feel like I've seen them do so in 1.12...)
20150911 16:57:47< celticminstrel> What is ai_algorithm really?
20150911 16:58:04< celticminstrel> Is there some other equivalent mechanism?
20150911 16:58:26< celticminstrel> I notice this in the source: "backward-compatibility hack: put ai_algorithm if it is present"
20150911 16:58:55< celticminstrel> Although I suppose that might just be for ai_algorithm directly under [side].
20150911 17:00:14< mattsc> ai_algorithm can be used to chose one of the other AIs in data/ai/something/  (ai or dev or …)
20150911 17:00:34< celticminstrel> Hmm...
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20150911 17:00:39< mattsc> but I think it is currently hard-coded (in C++) to only take the idle AI as an alternative to the default
20150911 17:00:52< celticminstrel> That would certainly seem logical, but yeah, it looks like it only takes the idle AI.
20150911 17:01:03< mattsc> It’s been a _long_ time that I have looked at the C++ code, so take everything I am saying with a grain of salt
20150911 17:01:29< celticminstrel> Also interesting is that version defaults to 10600, so configs are always updated to 10703... and then version is unconditionally bumped to 10710. :S
20150911 17:02:06< mattsc> yeah - I am pretty sure that was a hack for testing of different version, or for compatibility reasons or something
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20150911 17:48:22< celticminstrel> What does the AI version actually mean? Is 10600 1.6.0?
20150911 17:48:45< celticminstrel> Then 10703 would be 1.7.3 and 10710 would be 1.7.10.
20150911 17:49:50< mattsc> It’s something like that, yes  (but I don’t know for sure)
20150911 17:50:00< celticminstrel> Thus 1.13.2 would be 11302.
20150911 17:50:41< mattsc> I think it was probably used back then to test development version against each other.
20150911 17:51:03< mattsc> Once the development was mostly done, the version was then hard-codedto the last value, as you said
20150911 17:51:25< celticminstrel> It's currently used to transform the simplified syntax to the full [aspect][facet] syntax, as well as using the new [goal] syntax.
20150911 17:52:22< mattsc> okay - so it then probably corresponds to the introduction of the new syntax
20150911 17:52:43< celticminstrel> Which was around 1.7, I guess?
20150911 17:53:06< mattsc> This was all done “before my time”.  Well, I was palying Wesnoth at the time, and I think even writing my first campaign, but I had no invovlvement with the AI work
20150911 17:53:24< mattsc> Yes, 1.7 is when Crab refactored the AI into the candidate action system it is now.
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20150911 17:55:14< mattsc> You can see that it was never quite cleaned up from the fact alone that a lot of the AI code is still in a directory called testing/
20150911 17:55:26< mattsc> and that a lot of the old (mostly duplicate) code is still there
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20150911 18:15:06< celticminstrel> When were [target] etc deprecated?
20150911 18:18:02< mattsc> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/8c91d2e5cb
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20150911 18:18:29< celticminstrel> So, 1.11.5.
20150911 18:19:13< celticminstrel> It would be nice to get rid of all that conversion code, but maybe it's still a bit too soon for that.
20150911 18:21:24< mattsc> Yeah, we should probably go through one more development cycle for that
20150911 18:21:40< celticminstrel> ie, after 1.14?
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20150911 18:23:27< mattsc> yes
20150911 18:24:17< mattsc> but I don’t know how it has been done with previous deprecated parameters; others might be able to tell
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20150911 18:29:00< celticminstrel> Do you have any idea what the purpose of [aspect]name="composite_aspect" and [facet]name="standard_aspect" is? ...or did I ask that already?
20150911 18:29:24< celticminstrel> I can't see anywhere they're used in the code, but there might be something not obvious to a simple grep.
20150911 18:30:11< mattsc> I think that’s probably a relic too
20150911 18:30:41< celticminstrel> Most of the examples I've seen omit both of them.
20150911 18:32:28< mattsc> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Ai_Module#Available_aspects
20150911 18:32:45< mattsc> doesn’t answer your question, but that’s the best information available from Crab, I believe
20150911 18:35:14< celticminstrel> Hmm... I suppose in theory you could have some [aspect]name=standard_aspect that has no nested facets...
20150911 18:35:32< celticminstrel> But in practice, that never seems to happen.
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20150911 18:40:04< celticminstrel> Would there be any point in it?
20150911 18:41:54< mattsc> I can’t think of any.
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20150911 19:42:00< celticminstrel> In theory, maybe you could also have a three-level aspect, with [facet] nested in [facet]... I can't think of any use for that either though.
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20150911 19:46:51< celticminstrel> Huh, the fallback stage takes an entire [ai] as argument.
20150911 19:47:53< celticminstrel> I suppose that would imply that the fallback can have a completely different set of stages, candidate actions, aspects, goals, etc... 
20150911 19:52:07< celticminstrel> Although there's that warning at the top of the page that it's obsolete.
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20150911 20:37:40< irker365> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 8b1f3c856cc6 / src/ (6 files): move undo_stack to gamestate class http://git.io/vZ2FV
20150911 20:37:40< irker365> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master ca0bf513aa74 / src/unit.cpp: fix a segfault when loading a savegame. http://git.io/vZ2Fw
20150911 20:37:41< irker365> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 20a2a17f880d / src/ (replay.cpp replay.hpp): fix chat during mp replays http://git.io/vZ2Fo
20150911 20:37:42< irker365> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 276a79ab3b91 / src/ (replay.cpp replay.hpp): remove unused function http://git.io/vZ2F6
20150911 20:37:43< irker365> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 445ceb119fe7 / src/playsingle_controller.cpp: add a comment http://git.io/vZ2Fi
20150911 20:37:44< irker365> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 757cde164b73 / src/play_controller.cpp: fix mp failing to load scenarios http://git.io/vZ2FP
20150911 20:37:46< irker365> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master f01252a42c25 / data/lua/wml-tags.lua src/scripting/game_lua_kernel.cpp: add [unsynced] actionwml http://git.io/vZ2FX
20150911 20:37:48< irker365> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 6010455f563f / src/ (9 files in 3 dirs): add [on_undo]/[on_redo] actionwml http://git.io/vZ2FS
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20150911 20:47:14< celticminstrel> "Actions wml to be executed when the current actio is [un/re]done."
20150911 20:47:17< celticminstrel> Typo. :P
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--- Log closed Sat Sep 12 00:00:35 2015