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20150904 11:56:11< minna> Hello!
20150904 12:24:00< Soliton> greetings
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20150904 18:35:25< minna> hey guys, if I want to include an if condition in a weapon special to modify the special's value, do I wrap the if around just the value?
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20150904 18:40:38< minna> hey zookeeper!
20150904 18:49:18< minna> what key is used to refer to the unit which owns a weapon special? I want to check if it's slowed with $that key.status.slowed
20150904 18:49:48< celticminstrel> Context?
20150904 18:50:14 * celticminstrel would guess you're looking for $this_unit but not quite sure.
20150904 18:50:41< minna> hm, then tell me if this pseudocode for a weapon special is correct-ish then
20150904 18:50:47< celticminstrel> Pastebin.
20150904 18:50:56< minna> will do
20150904 18:54:55< zookeeper> yeah probably $this_unit.status.slowed (or $unit; depends on context)
20150904 18:55:24< minna> hm, could be both
20150904 18:55:28< minna> or latter
20150904 18:55:28< minna> or
20150904 18:55:34< zookeeper> i'm sure we're about to find out
20150904 18:56:12< minna> http://pastebin.com/8EbD9kcA
20150904 18:56:27< zookeeper> uhhhhh
20150904 18:56:35< minna> this is literally one of my first WMLs
20150904 18:56:46< celticminstrel> That's totally wrong.
20150904 18:56:55< minna> didn't expect it not to be
20150904 18:57:03< minna> should I just wrap the if around the value?
20150904 18:57:14< celticminstrel> To start with, get rid of everything except the [damage] tags and contents.
20150904 18:57:21< zookeeper> you can't use [if] anywhere in there
20150904 18:57:39< celticminstrel> Then you need to add a [filter] or similar inside the [damage] tags.
20150904 18:58:05< minna> ah
20150904 18:58:14< celticminstrel> Also, um... why are name and description empty?
20150904 18:58:33< minna> Because I've been reading the WML forum and apparently it's a workaround
20150904 18:58:38< celticminstrel> For?
20150904 18:58:53< minna> This is an invisible weapon special, because an ability can't achieve lowering the opponent's damage
20150904 18:59:07< zookeeper> yeah you need something like [damage] [filter_opponent] [filter_wml] [status] slowed=yes
20150904 18:59:09< minna> so the ability will be dummy and have a description explaining what this does
20150904 18:59:10< celticminstrel> Okay, then at least get rid of the underscore.
20150904 18:59:23< celticminstrel> _"" is generally not a good idea
20150904 18:59:29< minna> mm
20150904 18:59:38< minna> alright, done
20150904 18:59:49< celticminstrel> Also, if there's no name, I think the description will never be seen.
20150904 19:00:02< minna> Also, it's when this unit is slowed that the opponent is meant to do half damage to it
20150904 19:00:08< minna> also, I need to go
20150904 19:00:10< zookeeper> i don't know whether you want [filter_self] or [filter_opponent] there
20150904 19:00:15< minna> I hope you'll be here in an hour
20150904 19:00:17< zookeeper> [filter_self] then, i suppose
20150904 19:00:23< celticminstrel> I will be.
20150904 19:00:32< celticminstrel> Most likely.
20150904 19:00:54< celticminstrel> Either [filter_self] or [filter_defender].
20150904 19:02:27< celticminstrel> Thinking about it, the former sounds more likely.
20150904 19:04:45< celticminstrel> Hmm, I wonder if backstab= can be done with some kind of [filter_adjacent] trick...
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20150904 19:06:48< celticminstrel> Ah... maybe what's needed is something like [filter_opponent_adjacent] to generalize backstab...
20150904 19:18:41< zookeeper> all you'd need is to check six directions, doesn't even require anything new to do that
20150904 19:18:55< celticminstrel> It doesn't?
20150904 19:19:28< zookeeper> (if opponent is north and has enemy north) or (if opponent is northeast and has enemy northeast) or [...]
20150904 19:19:53< celticminstrel> Wouldn't that require having six copies of the ability?
20150904 19:20:09< zookeeper> i don't see why
20150904 19:20:11< celticminstrel> Also I don't see any way to filter on the direction of the opponent.
20150904 19:20:34< zookeeper> i don't know exactly how verbose it'd have to be
20150904 19:20:49< celticminstrel> I also don't see any way to combine conditions with OR.
20150904 19:21:41< celticminstrel> ...which is probably why leadership is one ability per level...
20150904 19:22:37< Ravana_> problem with leadership is that target level is not reachable... no $that_unit
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20150904 19:28:07< celticminstrel> That doesn't sound quite right.
20150904 19:28:37< celticminstrel> Isn't it more like a lack of support for comparisons other than just equality?
20150904 19:29:50< celticminstrel> ...actually, leadership is one ability per level in two different senses, maybe you're thinking of the other sense.
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20150904 19:47:18< Ravana_> celticminstrel: I checked ability again, it is exactly target units level that is needed and is not available currently, so that the needed % can't be calculated. For comparing there is formula=
20150904 19:47:45< celticminstrel> Well, leadership isn't using formula.
20150904 19:47:52< celticminstrel> At least, it's not in 1.12.
20150904 19:48:03< Ravana_> yes, because it isn't usefult currently
20150904 19:48:14< Ravana_> when it only has access to level of 1 unit
20150904 19:51:08< celticminstrel> I'm looking at it now and I don't understand what you're saying. It's already filtering on the target unit's level.
20150904 19:51:42< Ravana_> only that level is used as constant there
20150904 19:53:27< Ravana_> I tried to write one leadership with formula, http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=40815#p573997
20150904 19:54:21< celticminstrel> I thought you said formula wasn't useful for leadership...
20150904 19:54:36< Ravana_> it isn't really
20150904 19:54:57< Ravana_> not currently, not as leadership is generally defined
20150904 19:55:14< Ravana_> https://github.com/ProditorMagnus/Ageless-for-1-11/blob/master/data/EoMa_data/abilities/fear.cfg
20150904 19:55:22< Ravana_> that gives same value to all lower levels
20150904 19:55:45< celticminstrel> Hmm, so maybe value could be given formula support...
20150904 19:56:20< Ravana_> and that would need way to get the level difference of units
20150904 19:57:25< celticminstrel> By the way, isn't it poor form to include macros in translatable strings?
20150904 19:58:04< Ravana_> no idea really, I haven't offered any of my addons for translation
20150904 20:08:04< celticminstrel> ...according to the wiki, [resistance] supports more keys than [leadership].
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20150904 20:15:55< minna> well, I appear to be back
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20150904 20:16:28< minna> The wiki page for StandardUnitFilter claims [status] is a 1.13+ tag
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20150904 20:18:50< celticminstrel> You should be able to get the same effect in 1.12 by putting [status] inside [filter_wml].
20150904 20:19:24< minna> Ah, then I'm just confused by the thing, I guess
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20150904 20:33:26< minna> http://pastebin.com/7ySeQd9V
20150904 20:33:34< minna> Are these fairly correct?
20150904 20:34:24< Ravana_> line 6 shouldn't be single line
20150904 20:36:02< minna> It's not just aesthetic? I'll break it up.
20150904 20:37:35< minna> Done
20150904 20:38:06< Ravana_> it might work, haven't tested, just not something I would call correct
20150904 20:41:27< minna> Alright
20150904 20:42:20< minna> Added the blinding attack
20150904 20:42:46< minna> by the way, hi Ravana, this is implementation of the things I asked how to do and you told me
20150904 20:45:41< celticminstrel> What was line 6?
20150904 20:47:06< celticminstrel> If you want to put a=b and c=d on the same line it needs to be written as a,c=b,d.
20150904 20:47:11< minna> It was the filter stack
20150904 20:47:12< celticminstrel> I would usually not recommend it.
20150904 20:47:25< minna> It's now lines 6-12
20150904 20:47:30< celticminstrel> Oh. I think you can have an attribute starting on the same line as the opening tag, but I dunno...
20150904 20:47:48< minna> Ah well, better safe this way
20150904 20:47:55< minna> no need for me to be lazy
20150904 20:47:57< celticminstrel> It might work.
20150904 20:47:59< celticminstrel> I dunno.
20150904 20:48:07< celticminstrel> Probably safer this way, yeah.
20150904 20:48:18< minna> Now I'll be writing an ability which triggers an event, so
20150904 20:49:33< minna> hm
20150904 20:49:43< minna> fire_event: (default no) if yes, when a unit is killed by harming, the corresponding events are fired. If yes, also the corresponding advance and post advance events are fired.
20150904 20:50:25< minna> Will I need to assign experience manually?
20150904 20:51:13< minna> experience: if yes, and there is a harmer, experience will be attributed like in regular combat.
20150904 20:51:14< minna> ah
20150904 20:54:32< minna> [filter_second]: StandardUnitFilter if present, the first matching unit will attack all the units matching the filter above.
20150904 20:54:36< minna> does this declare the harmer?
20150904 20:55:45< zookeeper> what tag are you even talking about?
20150904 20:56:07< minna> [harm_unit]
20150904 20:56:18< minna> of direct actions
20150904 20:56:27< minna> I'm making a weapon special that deals extra damage
20150904 20:56:33< minna> with an event
20150904 20:56:58< Ravana_> consider [damage] instead where possible
20150904 20:57:40< minna> Well, when I asked on the forum, you told me that damage equal to a percent of the enemy's HP has to be done with events
20150904 20:57:52< Ravana_> yes, that certainly
20150904 20:58:05< minna> so it's been considered
20150904 20:58:20< zookeeper> that's all true, but that means the special will be very awkward to use
20150904 20:58:25< zookeeper> because you can't see how much damage it'll do
20150904 20:59:34< minna> well, it'll do 10% of the enemy's current HP on each hit, so you know that if you attack something with 75 HP it'll deal 7 etc
20150904 20:59:51< minna> I might mess around with the exact percent
20150904 21:00:37< minna> it's true combat calculations will not be able to see it
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20150904 21:01:47< minna> I guess it's not a necessary feature
20150904 21:02:23< minna> I could just make it standard high direct damage of some sort
20150904 21:03:22< minna> hm
20150904 21:05:01< minna> Can I read the opponent's HP from within a [damage] weapon special tag?
20150904 21:05:18< minna> I could just make it a multiplier based on that value
20150904 21:05:39< minna> something like 1+(enemy's HP)/40
20150904 21:06:06< minna> if I can get to the enemy's HP ,that is
20150904 21:06:12< Ravana_> can't, same case as with leadership discussed here 1h ago
20150904 21:07:32< minna> welp, events it is
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20150904 21:21:45< Guest36481> hi everyone
20150904 21:22:50< shadowm> Hi Guest36481.
20150904 21:24:45< minna> hi Guest36481
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20150904 21:30:03< Guest36481> exit
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20150904 21:30:19< shadowm> Bye Guest36481.
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20150904 21:33:45< Dona> hi
20150904 21:34:25< shadowm> Hello.
20150904 21:34:25< Dona> is there a way to contribute financially into to project ?
20150904 21:34:54< shadowm> Not at the moment, and there isn't much we can do with money right now anyway.
20150904 21:35:22< Dona> oh ok
20150904 21:35:37< Dona> thanks for the answer
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20150904 21:48:19< minna> okay
20150904 21:48:20< minna> http://pastebin.com/7ySeQd9V
20150904 21:48:43< minna> Ravana_, celticminstrel: What do you think of the flaying?
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20150904 22:00:47< HeyCitizen> why does the graph show a sawtooth wave?  it doesn't make sense to me... http://www.wesnoth.org/cgi-bin/drraw/drraw.cgi?Mode=view;Graph=1381049724.22611;View=3
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20150904 22:06:59< zookeeper> what the heck is that?
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20150904 22:07:38< minna> Citizen's thing or mine?
20150904 22:08:08< zookeeper> former
20150904 22:08:53< minna> claims to be the number of users
20150904 22:09:04< minna> on the 1.12 multiplayer server
20150904 22:09:54< zookeeper> well i guess i didn't see it because i didn't try to give it a login
20150904 22:11:11< minna> I put in "guest"
20150904 22:11:55< minna> May I ask you to look over my WML again?
20150904 22:11:58< minna> http://pastebin.com/7ySeQd9V
20150904 22:16:09< zookeeper> indentation would help a lot
20150904 22:16:18< minna> right
20150904 22:16:21< minna> will put that in
20150904 22:16:24< zookeeper> other than that, is this for a campaign or an era or what?
20150904 22:17:37< minna> an era, I guess
20150904 22:18:38< zookeeper> in that case it'd be better to collect all the ability/special-related events into one file you include inside the [era] tag, instead of incorporating them into the ability/special macros like that
20150904 22:19:04< zookeeper> the latter is basically useful only if you don't control how and where people use said macro
20150904 22:19:09< minna> That's how I've seen it done by other eras, but thanks for the tip
20150904 22:20:38< zookeeper> messing with the opening and closing tags the way you need to do when you keep the events in the macros is very fragile and icky, in comparison with having them all only once inside the [era]
20150904 22:21:29< minna> Alright, I'll have better practice then
20150904 22:21:58< zookeeper> i don't see anything wrong with the code as such
20150904 22:27:18< Ravana_> minna: +tag events have some limitations, but I believe they are still better than including events somewhere else
20150904 22:28:52< zookeeper> no they're not!
20150904 22:29:36< zookeeper> if you can include them somewhere else, there's no reason to use the [+tag] hacks
20150904 22:29:56< minna> well, I blame Ageless Era's bad example then
20150904 22:30:28< zookeeper> there's no benefit to the [+tag] method aside from being able to keep _all_ the code pertaining to that ability/special in one place
20150904 22:30:48< zookeeper> which arguably is nice, but it doesn't come entirely free, so...
20150904 22:33:36< Ravana_> I guess when there are onlu few different specials then it is feasible to maintain events separately, but ageless has 43+30 currently
20150904 22:33:37< minna> to be fair, even feeding the ability does this in the mainline last time I checked
20150904 22:35:05< zookeeper> it does, but only because at the time we couldn't have fully global events, which it would have needed to be
20150904 22:35:44< zookeeper> your era or ageless or a campaign doesn't need fully global events, only events global to that era/campaign/scenario/whatever
20150904 22:36:55< Ravana_> wouldn't it create needless events then? most scenarios do not need more than few hundred different unit types
20150904 22:37:19< zookeeper> which "it"?
20150904 22:37:45< Ravana_> it as in including events under toplevel tag
20150904 22:38:35< zookeeper> hrhhm. ok, yeah, that's probably a valid consideration for ageless or any other era with huge numbers of such abilities
20150904 22:39:11< zookeeper> at least if they're also reasonably complex
20150904 22:39:47< minna> well, you can see most of mine in the pastebin
20150904 22:40:13< minna> Last one I'm making is a mashup of trample and knockback, having an unit push the enemy away and enter that hex
20150904 22:40:31< zookeeper> but it'd still only mean having each one of those events in use at all times. which probably isn't going to have any noticeable drawbacks unless indeed you have dozens of them triggering all the time or with very complex filters.
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--- Log closed Sat Sep 05 00:00:10 2015