--- Log opened Thu Oct 15 00:00:30 2015
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20151015 00:55:28< shadowm> Aginor: Well, in that case you won't be able to silence irker. :p
20151015 00:55:56< shadowm> You can, however, ask me or vultraz to assist with that on the next merge.
20151015 00:56:05< Aginor> I shall
20151015 00:56:27< celticminstrel> Regarding silencing irker, I think it's unlikely that I'll need to be able to do so.
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20151015 01:50:51< shadowm> fendrin: Are you ever going to want your primary forum account back? I tried contacting you in private twice already and never received a response, so I might as well try a public channel now...
20151015 01:58:22< shadowm> Or maybe you don't want your forum account back and that's okay too, I'm just trying to help.
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20151015 02:47:26< wedge009> Aginor: Unfortunately the MP join still crashes (at the choose faction screen) after your conversion to references. You are unable to reproduce because you don't have the two computers to try it or you just can't replicate what I'm describing? I tested after the master->sdl2 merge, BTW.
20151015 02:50:35< celticminstrel> You shouldn't need two computers to test.
20151015 02:51:04< celticminstrel> It should be sufficient to start two instances of the game, right?
20151015 02:51:13< celticminstrel> (Admittedly that's nontrivial on OSX.)
20151015 02:54:37< Aginor> ok, I may have misunderstood how to reproduce
20151015 02:54:46< Aginor> I only ever ran the one instance of the game
20151015 02:54:57< Aginor> and I thought it was enough to use AI players
20151015 02:55:05< Aginor> let me try two instances
20151015 02:55:27< shadowm> celticminstrel: Is it nontrivial due to platform limitations or something that Wesnoth does wrong?
20151015 02:55:41< celticminstrel> shadowm: Platform limitations.
20151015 02:55:59< shadowm> Okay, asking because it's dead easy on both Windows and Linux.
20151015 02:56:02< celticminstrel> If you open an app that's already open, it brings it to the front rather than opening a new instance.
20151015 02:56:18< celticminstrel> You can only start a new instance via command-line or XCode, as far as I know.
20151015 02:56:39< Aginor> wedge009: reproduced now, thanks
20151015 02:56:44< shadowm> A case of desktop environments trying too hard, I see.
20151015 02:57:16< celticminstrel> It's been that way since System 7.
20151015 02:57:38< celticminstrel> I'd suggest even before, but I think 7 is when it first got multitasking.
20151015 02:57:47< wedge009> Aginor: Yes, local game is fine - I think it's because the game assumes all players have had the chance to choose their factions in the game set-up. So it only shows in remote MP games. Thanks for checking this.
20151015 02:58:04< shadowm> Well now I know how old you are then. :p
20151015 02:58:10< celticminstrel> Do you? :P
20151015 02:58:47< shadowm> Using Macs during 1991 - 1997.
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20151015 02:59:25 * celticminstrel nods.
20151015 02:59:38< celticminstrel> Probably not in 1991, but in that range, almost certainly.
20151015 02:59:55< shadowm> I don't know, maybe Macs are also designed to be able to be used by toddlers. I've never really touched one so I wouldn't know.
20151015 03:00:11< wedge009> They had them in schools, so possibly.
20151015 03:00:22< shadowm> But to be able to remember small UX details like that I'd expect somebody to be at least 18 years old.
20151015 03:00:29< Aginor> wedge009: it only happens on the second instance
20151015 03:00:32< Aginor> which is interesting...
20151015 03:00:49< Aginor> wedge009: have you only ever tried this with two instances on the same machine?
20151015 03:01:04< celticminstrel> I wasn't 18 then, no.
20151015 03:02:15< wedge009> Aginor: It crashes on the one trying to join the game. The host is fine because it has already chosen its factions in the set-up. I've replicated this on both Windows and Linux, but only on the client trying to join the game. On a rare occasion that the game doesn't crash altogether, it results in display corruption shown in the typical screenshot as shown in the bug report.
20151015 03:02:42< Aginor> wedge009: yes, it looks like the blit source is corrupt
20151015 03:02:55< Aginor> why is the next question :D
20151015 03:03:11< Aginor> (gdb) print *src.map
20151015 03:03:11< Aginor> $21 = {dst = 0x2c4b180, identity = 0, blit = 0x7ffff7b53690 <SDL_SoftBlit>, 
20151015 03:03:14< Aginor>   data = 0x7ffff7b5ed60 <BlitRGBtoRGBPixelAlphaMMX>, info = {
20151015 03:03:16< Aginor>     src = 0x6e0e788 <error: Cannot access memory at address 0x6e0e788>, 
20151015 03:05:32< Aginor> wedge009: but you have had this problem across two different machines, not just on the one?
20151015 03:06:02< celticminstrel> You're using gdb rather than lldb?
20151015 03:06:17< celticminstrel> (You are on Mac, right? I forget.)
20151015 03:06:19< wedge009> Aginor: Not at the same time, no. The client tries to join, crashes, but the host remains running - it makes the sound effects of someone joining the game then leaving game immediately afterwards.
20151015 03:06:40< wedge009> Aginor has a Macbook as well as Linux machines, as I recall.
20151015 03:07:05< Aginor> indeed
20151015 03:07:10< Aginor> I use a bit of everything
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20151015 03:07:14< celticminstrel> Heh.
20151015 03:07:39< Aginor> I bought a new used laptop earlier today so I can have it running windows next to me
20151015 03:07:57< Aginor> I also need a bigger desk
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20151015 03:09:03 * celticminstrel has another computer with Win7 and Fedora, though I rarely actually use the latter.
20151015 03:09:45 * Aginor is primarily using fedora
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20151015 03:10:07< Aginor> althought at work I suspect it'll be ubuntu :/
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20151015 03:16:09< pydsigner> Better than CentOS
20151015 03:16:49< celticminstrel> Though if I recall correctly, CentOS at least doesn't use apt-get.
20151015 03:17:03< shadowm> Certainly not, it's based on RHEL.
20151015 03:17:27< celticminstrel> Maybe it's partly because I had already gotten used to MacPorts, but I found yum easier to use.
20151015 03:17:39< pydsigner> apt-get over yum any day for me
20151015 03:18:05 * shadowm has been using Debian for 7 years.
20151015 03:18:32< pydsigner> Asking for verification when I only have the explicitly mentioned package to install
20151015 03:18:44< shadowm> Almost exactly 7 years, too. Turns out my big computer-related changes tend to happen in October/November.
20151015 03:19:04< pydsigner> Refreshing the package list when I don't want it to
20151015 03:19:34< pydsigner> Spending 30 seconds detecting the fastest mirror when the download is only going to take 5 seconds
20151015 03:20:08< pydsigner> Changelogs being on a per-repo rather than per-package basis
20151015 03:20:19< pydsigner> ^ These things I hate about yum
20151015 03:22:46< pydsigner> I got started with Ubuntu ~8 years ago
20151015 03:23:04< Aginor> pydsigner: you'll be pleased to hear that they've crapped yum then
20151015 03:23:15< pydsigner> Took a year off with Mandriva though in 2012
20151015 03:23:49< celticminstrel> In favour of what?
20151015 03:24:57< Aginor> DNF
20151015 03:25:02< Aginor> whatever that stands for
20151015 03:25:44< Aginor> it deals a lot better with metadata, making me like it more
20151015 03:25:46< shadowm> "Dandified Yum", apparently.
20151015 03:26:31< shadowm> Goes to show how awful OSS people are at coming up with names.
20151015 03:26:43< pydsigner> Wesnoth is a good name
20151015 03:27:06< shadowm> Eh.
20151015 03:27:11< pydsigner> But DNF sounds like a grammar description language
20151015 03:27:17< shadowm> BNF.
20151015 03:27:38< pydsigner> and that ^ is why.
20151015 03:28:25< celticminstrel> Wesnoth is a completely made-up name. Maybe that's why it's good?
20151015 03:28:49< Aginor> most naming schemes are rather silly
20151015 03:30:05< Aginor> running windows update sure is slow
20151015 03:41:47< vultraz> Aginor: Win 10?
20151015 03:42:08< Aginor> vultraz: it's a refurbushed laptop, it came with win7
20151015 03:42:14< vultraz> ah
20151015 03:42:18< Aginor> I might tryt to get the update to 10 though
20151015 03:42:33< Aginor> but first I need to get the windows updates :D
20151015 03:42:37< vultraz> 10 is so much better than 7, would recommend
20151015 03:42:44< Aginor> in what way?
20151015 03:45:11< vultraz> eh... I can't actually remember much from when I used 7, but I did think 8.1 felt better than 7 when I first upgraded and 10 fixes everything that was an issue with 8.1
20151015 03:45:22< vultraz> So... logically, 10 is better than 7 :P
20151015 03:45:40< shadowm> 10 is a big improvement over every other Windows version because it tries to force the single-user single-task model upon you to maximize performance. /s
20151015 03:46:06< shadowm> No but seriously why are they making it increasingly harder to tell which is the active window?
20151015 03:47:07< vultraz> What do you mean?
20151015 03:47:24< Aginor> I absolutely hate windows 8, 10 seems to be a step back towards sanity
20151015 03:47:28< shadowm> That it's hard to tell which is the active window.
20151015 03:47:42< Aginor> but is it better than 7?
20151015 03:47:53< shadowm> Remember how in previous versions active and inactive windows had differently colored titlebars?
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20151015 03:48:38< shadowm> Come on, it wasn't that long ago.
20151015 03:48:51< Aginor> I do :D
20151015 03:49:25< shadowm> Well, you can say goodbye to that if you upgrade to 10.
20151015 03:49:35< Aginor> that's mildly annoying
20151015 03:49:58< vultraz> The titles are grayed out in inactive windows
20151015 03:50:09< iceiceice> "20151015 02:54:37< Aginor> ok, I may have misunderstood how to reproduce"
20151015 03:50:11< iceiceice> that's what she said!
20151015 03:50:12< Aginor> I will upgrade to 10 on the desktop at some point, because a tablet ui with two monitors is just silly
20151015 03:50:33< Aginor> iceiceice: really?
20151015 03:50:34< iceiceice> :p
20151015 03:50:35< shadowm> vultraz: The text is, the bar itself isn't AFAICT.
20151015 03:50:42< iceiceice> sorry, i really could not pass that up
20151015 03:50:53< vultraz> iceiceice: *facepalm* 
20151015 03:50:56< shadowm> Yes, that was really bad.
20151015 03:51:55< Aginor> iceiceice: I don't want you to take it the wrong way, but I disapprove of that joke
20151015 03:52:50< shadowm> vultraz: Is it even possible to customize the bar colors without switching to one of the accessibility themes?
20151015 03:53:39< vultraz> Not right now
20151015 03:53:51< iceiceice> Aginor: it's okay, i think i disapprove also, but yet i did it :p
20151015 03:53:52< celticminstrel> iceiceice: :/
20151015 03:53:54< shadowm> Okay, so it's not just because I'm running an unactivated copy then. That's bullcrap.
20151015 03:54:30< vultraz> I believe that might land in Threshold 2 or later
20151015 03:54:45< shadowm> lol
20151015 03:55:09< shadowm> Are you telling me a feature we've had since Windows 1.0 had to be dropped without a reason in 10 and now we have to wait for a future update to address that?
20151015 03:55:20< shadowm> (1.0, yes, not a typo.)
20151015 03:55:42< shadowm> Such a big improvement over 7 indeed.
20151015 03:55:54< vultraz> Dunno
20151015 03:56:29< vultraz> I never even noticed such a thing was gone
20151015 03:56:30< celticminstrel> In general it feels like the trend is towards "simpler" things with fewer features... Firefox, Chrome, Mac, Windows, even the default distribution of Fedora that I used...
20151015 03:56:54< vultraz> celticminstrel: well yes. 
20151015 03:56:58< vultraz> nothing wrong with that
20151015 03:57:00< shadowm> It makes sense that you'd want a web browser to be as minimalistic as possible and not get in your way.
20151015 03:57:11< vultraz> Do you remember IE and its toolbars?
20151015 03:57:13< vultraz> kekekek 
20151015 03:57:19< shadowm> The entire operating system, though? A general purpose operating system?
20151015 03:57:32< wedge009> DNF sounds like Did Not Finish
20151015 03:57:47< shadowm> Might as well squeeze out more money out of customers by locking customization features into higher-priced editions. /s
20151015 03:57:49< celticminstrel> I felt that Chrome took it too far though.
20151015 03:57:54< wedge009> iceiceice, Aginor, vultraz: Thought it's rather old: https://xkcd.com/583/
20151015 03:59:06< iceiceice> haha
20151015 03:59:34< wedge009> I still prefer Win 7, but on the laptops with 8 pre-installed I switched to 10, with ShutUp10 to try to clamp down on the 'Win10 phone home' nonsense. I really don't like the inability to stop updates happening automatically - not everyone in the world has limitless Internet.
20151015 03:59:58< celticminstrel> I can't believe that's utterly impossible.
20151015 04:00:17< celticminstrel> My sister was complaining about how it sometimes restarts your computer without even asking.
20151015 04:00:26< vultraz> Yes, it does
20151015 04:00:39< vultraz> It automatically schedules an update for a usage downtime
20151015 04:00:42< vultraz> You can change this
20151015 04:01:33< celticminstrel> I also recall her saying that the only way she could see to disable it required using wifi rather than ethernet.
20151015 04:01:36< vultraz> I like this better than the UPDATE NOW WE WILL RESTART NOW YOU HAVE NO CHOICE from previous versions :P
20151015 04:02:01< celticminstrel> Provided it has a sane method of determining usage downtime.
20151015 04:02:09< wedge009> I think that's related to Ethernet being treated as unmetered connection or some silliness.
20151015 04:02:15< wedge009> I hate it.
20151015 04:02:24< iceiceice> yeah not being able to stop updates is pretty much a deal breaker
20151015 04:02:27< iceiceice> what if i have to give a talk right then
20151015 04:02:31< iceiceice> and i cant show my slides
20151015 04:02:47< wedge009> As I said, I only really switched because I hate 8.x more.
20151015 04:02:48< iceiceice> thats like the worst thing my computer could ever do to me
20151015 04:02:57< iceiceice> other than like, idk
20151015 04:03:06< iceiceice> well lets not get carried away
20151015 04:03:10< iceiceice> :p
20151015 04:03:18< wedge009> I would use Linux on those laptops but I need Windows in some cases.
20151015 04:03:21< celticminstrel> Mac used to be worse than Windows on this (installers didn't give you a Restart Later option).
20151015 04:03:27< wedge009> Yeah, I know everyone has their opinion on this.
20151015 04:03:59< Aginor> indee
20151015 04:04:03< Aginor> indeed even
20151015 04:04:31< wedge009> Aginor, is unlimited downloads standard or optional in NZ?
20151015 04:05:15< Aginor> wedge009: no, it's only started in the last two years
20151015 04:05:24< Aginor> I'm on a quota and I hate it
20151015 04:05:43< Aginor> I went from faster unquotaed internet to slow internet with quota here
20151015 04:05:53< Aginor> s/here/when I moved here/
20151015 04:06:02< wedge009> From where?
20151015 04:06:10< Aginor> Sweden
20151015 04:07:17< wedge009> That's quite the move. I'm on a quota (Australia), though it's not too much extra to go to unlimited. But I don't use it enough to warrant that extra payment. In fact, I don't even notice any speed throttling on those occasions I go over. My main gripe is that I would rather the updates happen during my off-peak time and the auto updates don't allow that. >.<
20151015 04:08:53< celticminstrel> Apparently you can manually mark any connection as metered.
20151015 04:09:04< wedge009> Except Ethernet connections.
20151015 04:09:08< Aginor> wedge009: I have no time when it's off-peak
20151015 04:09:34< celticminstrel> Really? Huh, that seems kinda stupid.
20151015 04:09:51< shadowm> Being on a metered question isn't a fate I'd wish upon anyone at all.
20151015 04:10:10< shadowm> Question? Connection I mean.
20151015 04:10:16< celticminstrel> XD
20151015 04:10:59< wedge009> Yes, this is the case on Win10 and yes, it's stupid.
20151015 04:13:09< Aginor> I can certainly see why they want to force people to download and install the updates, the biggest cause of pwned machines is people not installing the updates
20151015 04:13:22< Aginor> shadowm: I have a number of uncharitable things to say about it
20151015 04:14:43< shadowm> At least here mobile broadband ISPs seem to live in a completely different dimension where people don't watch more than 0.75 full HD videos per month or ever need to upgrade their OS.
20151015 04:15:17< celticminstrel> ...heh.
20151015 04:15:49< Aginor> shadowm: I get 500mb/month of mobile data
20151015 04:16:41< shadowm> Well and here I thought 6 GiB was bad.
20151015 04:17:05< Aginor> :D
20151015 04:28:01 * vultraz gets unlimited data transfer
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20151015 09:20:00< wedge009> Aginor: I just noticed an unfortunate side-effect (I think) of working around the window resizing crash - maximising the window or restoring it to its original size results in much of the screen not being redrawn until something (like hovering the mouse over a hex) causes it to be redrawn. Switching between full-screen and windowed mode is okay, though.
20151015 09:20:38< wedge009> ):
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20151015 10:32:18< Aginor> wedge009: yeah, that's another uttering of https://gna.org/bugs/?23934
20151015 10:32:36< Aginor> resize events are dropped
20151015 10:34:09< wedge009> It seems so. I didn't consider it the same as your original report because the display simply doesn't refresh at all. As opposed to lag implying that it does refresh eventually, albeit after a noticeable delay.
20151015 10:35:42< Aginor> yeah
20151015 10:35:49< Aginor> it needs to be fixed
20151015 10:35:56< Aginor> and the network-game crash
20151015 10:38:19< vultraz> After that's fixed, will SDL2 be ready? :D
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20151015 10:38:48< Aginor> yes
20151015 10:38:56< Aginor> the dropped resize events is the hard bit
20151015 10:40:02< vultraz> I'm sure you'll figure it out 
20151015 10:40:44< Aginor> I have a potential solution but it requires some rather heavy-handedness so I'm not so keen on it
20151015 10:41:11< Aginor> and it really is just an ugly hack to compensate for the fact that wesnoth spends a lot of time rendering a full frame
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20151015 10:42:00< vultraz> Is there any way to cut back on that?
20151015 10:42:33< Aginor> use hardware acceleation and drop the home-rolled blit routines
20151015 10:44:07< vultraz> well... that would be a good thing
20151015 10:44:10< vultraz> to do
20151015 10:44:12< vultraz> wouldn't it?
20151015 10:44:19< Aginor> it would
20151015 10:44:30< Aginor> it's just a lot of work
20151015 10:44:31< vultraz> Or are you planning to do that but want to do that after fixing what's around first
20151015 10:44:51< Aginor> I want to get the SDL2 thing reasonably stable first
20151015 10:45:42< vultraz> ah
20151015 10:46:38< Aginor> I'm expecting it to be a couple of months work to remove the home-rolled parts
20151015 10:47:18< vultraz> wow, geez
20151015 10:47:54< Aginor> that's taking my own time constraints into account
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20151015 10:54:57< Aginor> on the flip side, I'm installing VS2015 on my new old windows laptop
20151015 11:10:04< vultraz> I'm wondering if I should switch to that too
20151015 11:10:13< vultraz> Since right now I'm the odd one out using Codeblocks
20151015 11:57:57 * vultraz makes note to implement a loadscreen effect once sdl2 is mained
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20151015 14:58:27< aquileia> Aginor: 500 mb/month? I get that much on my phone... for 1€ monthly
20151015 15:01:19< aquileia> If you installed VC2015: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnWindows#Visual_Studio and cherry-pick a43388ef02ce5 (from VC9-SDL) onto https://github.com/aquileia/external/tree/VC14
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20151015 15:10:16 * aquileia probably should downgrade libpng from 1.6.17 to 1.6.16 which SDL2_image.lib uses... 4 libpng versions are excessive
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20151015 15:25:36< Nobun> hi. Need again help while developing python3 wmlxgettext
20151015 15:26:21< Nobun> I need to understand something about behaviour of the current perl wmlxgettext, since I cannot understand perl
20151015 15:26:46< Nobun> more in detail: warn / error messages when exactly generated
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20151015 15:27:43< Nobun> I will now post a pastebin with all warn / error messages of perl wmlxgettext... I need to understand when exactly that warn / errors are actually raised
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20151015 15:53:28< Nobun> wmlxgettext errors and warnings I don't understand when exactly they are raised --> http://pastebin.com/PgMCAdD6
20151015 15:54:04< Nobun> (this info will help me to understand exactly when and if I have to implement the same error / warnings and how)
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20151015 16:50:33< Soliton> _"" is a translatable empty string. gettext does not like that.
20151015 16:55:25< Soliton> the "nested string in $file" happens only if that regex matches while in a multiline string.
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20151015 16:56:52< Soliton> not sure how that should ever happen given that ifelse sequence though.
20151015 16:57:46< Soliton> (since it checks defined $str in the case above)
20151015 16:58:09< Soliton> maybe an artifact of some refactoring.
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20151015 17:03:37< Soliton> the warnings are about apparent invalid WML because of unbalanced opening/closing tags afaict.
20151015 17:04:36< Soliton> oh, he's already gone... hope he reads logs.
20151015 17:12:38< aquileia> well, there's always shikadibot_: seen Nobun
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20151015 21:41:29< shadowm> Aginor: In general, how much longer do you estimate it'll take to get the sdl2 branch into a mergeable state? From the tracker it looks like all bugs assigned to you are either fixed or minor.
20151015 21:46:23< shadowm> I have said this before and I'll say it again: rendering performance fixes and hardware acceleration should not be a goal for 1.13.2. That will be a more complicated task and we can look into it later once we are reasonably confident in the port's shippability.
20151015 21:48:38< shadowm> Aginor, celticminstrel: Also (and this is just a question out of curiosity) how much experience do you have with C++11/14?
20151015 21:50:21< shadowm> (Preemptive response for the inevitable onlookers asking "when c++11": TBD.)
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20151015 21:55:57< Aginor> shadowm: I think the main blocker is still the crash for MP games, once that is resolved I think it's mergable
20151015 21:56:25< Aginor> resize is iffy, but so I think we need to decide if that's a blocker or not
20151015 21:56:50< Aginor> I have no direct c++11 eleven experience, but it can't be hard to pick up
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20151015 22:09:53< Aginor> wedge009: I ran over my internet quota today :D
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20151015 22:29:23< celticminstrel> shadowm: My compiler doesn't support C++14, but I've been using C++11 for uh... maybe a year now?
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--- Log closed Fri Oct 16 00:00:11 2015