--- Log opened Sat Oct 24 00:00:06 2015
20151024 00:00:07< shadowm> However, you might need to start a clean build if scons for whatever reason didn't detect the changed system headers.
20151024 00:01:40< shadowm> Will be fun to read more frustrated devs finding out how utterly broken clang is now that a Linux distribution has shipped with the GCC 5 ABI.
20151024 00:01:54< wedge009> It was taking a long time to build, so I thought it did that already. I'll see if I can force a fresh start.
20151024 00:02:04< wedge009> Ooh.
20151024 00:02:29< shadowm> Ooh?
20151024 00:03:15< shadowm> `scons -c && scons --config=force -j8` (replace 8 with your actual number of CPU threads) is what I'd do to perform a fresh build, btw.
20151024 00:03:57< shadowm> Also make sure you don't have something other than the default GCC (g++) in the cxxtool option in .scons-options-cache.
20151024 00:04:18< shadowm> If the option is missing entirely then that's fine too because it means scons will use g++.
20151024 00:10:53< wedge009> Thanks. wesnothd was fine this time, so hopefully wesnoth will be okay as well.
20151024 00:12:15< shadowm> Should be since both depend on the same C++ libraries (assuming all of Boost counts as one for this purpose).
20151024 00:12:48< wedge009> Yes, I expect so. Also boost was bumped from 1.55 to 1.58.
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20151024 00:50:34< shadowm> Do [and]/[or]/[not] actually have their usual meaning in [filter_wml] or are they interpreted as actual WML to match?
20151024 00:54:21< shadowm> Oh god, looks like it's the latter.
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20151024 06:57:08< ancestral> https://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2015/10/23/mozilla-launches-open-source-support-program/
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20151024 08:26:44< zookeeper> wedge009, i don't think one should avoid listing unreachable/impassable terrains, because it'd be a bit confusing when heavy infantry would be missing its mountains entry, most land units wouldn't have a deep water entry, flying units have an unwalkable entry but others don't, etc.
20151024 08:27:25< wedge009> zookeeper: So is there another solution to the bug that was raised?
20151024 08:30:18< zookeeper> well, isn't the list still only generated based on the terrains on the current map? because i don't see rails in the list
20151024 08:32:24< shadowm> It lists terrains you've encountered at any point in time, not just the current map.
20151024 08:32:36< zookeeper> oh, right
20151024 08:33:43< zookeeper> shouldn't :discover do the trick? because it doesn't
20151024 08:36:28< zookeeper> had to edit a map in the editor, first... but now i see it
20151024 08:43:55< zookeeper> i'd be inclined to think that we should add a new key to [terrain_type] for defining whether the terrain should show up in the list even if the unit doesn't specify it, or not
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20151024 08:45:29< zookeeper> so to the rails archetype terrain we'd add a hide_from_terrain_table=yes or something, which would mean that unless a unit actually specifies any movement/defense/vision values on that terrain, it'll remain hidden
20151024 08:46:48< zookeeper> however, i don't know if there is any "does the unit specify" distinction at the point where that check would need to happen, or whether missing entries are replaced with 0/99 at an earlier point already
20151024 08:49:02< zookeeper> ...or we could just turn it into the regular alias terrain it should always have been and avoid the issue altogether
20151024 08:49:51< shadowm> Archetypes can't be aliases, unless you mean removing the archetype altogether.
20151024 08:49:57< zookeeper> i do
20151024 08:50:08< shadowm> Well, rails originally didn't have an archetype IIRC.
20151024 08:50:31< vultraz> why do they even have an archetype 
20151024 08:50:31< shadowm> Yep, no archetype in 1.10, just alias to base.
20151024 08:50:34< vultraz> they're an overlay 
20151024 08:51:15< zookeeper> because someone wanted to make it possible to make mine carts which can only move on rails, or something
20151024 08:51:34< shadowm> !commit c8b2e32ea561575d356335b3d4fd52ab1dc3d171
20151024 08:51:35< shikadibot> shadowm: Revision c8b2e32ea561 (Simon Forsyth) on Wed Feb 15 00:21:10 2012:
20151024 08:51:38< shikadibot> shadowm: New rail terrain type.
20151024 08:51:40< shikadibot> shadowm:  
20151024 08:51:43< shikadibot> shadowm: Has no effect on current units (may want to define values for UI purposes
20151024 08:51:46< shikadibot> shadowm: Web interface URL: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/c8b2e32ea561
20151024 08:51:56< vultraz> i see
20151024 08:53:37< zookeeper> i suppose one could grep for Rt= to see if any UMC makes use of it
20151024 08:53:47< zookeeper> err
20151024 08:53:48< zookeeper> i mean
20151024 08:53:57< zookeeper> rails=
20151024 08:54:01< vultraz> Only one person can do that
20151024 08:54:42< zookeeper> batman?
20151024 08:54:54< shadowm> Yeah remind me later, I already abused baldras enough this morning.
20151024 08:56:44< vultraz> Not batman
20151024 08:56:47< vultraz> We call him Shadow Man
20151024 08:58:58< zookeeper> :o
20151024 08:59:05< zookeeper> *theme music*
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20151024 10:56:58< irker797> wesnoth: Wedge009 wesnoth:master 01daea8f759b / src/game_initialization/multiplayer_create.cpp: Enable Cancel Orders in Load MP Game http://git.io/vWusY
20151024 10:56:58< irker797> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 9ad56b8d8880 / src/game_initialization/multiplayer_create.cpp: Merge pull request #534 from Wedge009/bug_22133_fix http://git.io/vWusO
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20151024 11:39:33< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#7695 (master - 9ad56b8 : gfgtdf): The build passed.
20151024 11:39:33< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/87180731
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20151024 14:14:15 * celticminstrel is confused by the rails discussion earlier.
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20151024 14:55:25< zookeeper> celticminstrel, what was confusing about it?
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20151024 15:18:28< celticminstrel> Uhh... mainly near the end...
20151024 15:18:55< celticminstrel> Why checking for rails=?
20151024 15:20:27< zookeeper> because a UMC which gives units special defense/movement values on rails has to have "rails=" somewhere in it (unless obscured by macros).
20151024 15:20:52< celticminstrel> No I mean... why checking for UMC that do this?
20151024 15:21:07< zookeeper> so you can tell whether removing the archetype terrain would break anything
20151024 15:21:10< celticminstrel> (BTW I think it would have to still have it even if macros.)
20151024 15:21:21< celticminstrel> So you want to remove the archetype terrain?
20151024 15:21:40< zookeeper> i'm not sure
20151024 15:22:24< zookeeper> it's a possibility, but i have no strong feelings about it i guess
20151024 15:22:32< celticminstrel> I see.
20151024 15:24:17< celticminstrel> I think it's good to keep it though.
20151024 15:24:44< zookeeper> yeah it does no harm, if we can hide it when not needed
20151024 15:24:56< celticminstrel> It is possible to distinguish between a terrain type with no defense/movement specified and one which is explicitly specified to be 0% / impassable.
20151024 15:25:22< celticminstrel> The fact that that's possible made my implementation of movetype patching a little more complicated.
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20151024 15:31:37< zookeeper> oh, okay.
20151024 15:32:44< zookeeper> then maybe you would know whether it'd be easy to not list a terrain if the unit specifies no values on it (and the terrain has a given flag)?
20151024 15:37:32< celticminstrel> I think it would be.
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20151024 15:55:45< zookeeper> well, that sounds good then
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20151024 16:30:50< shadowm> zookeeper: The_Rising defines a minecart unit with movement cost of 1 on rails.
20151024 16:31:57< zookeeper> right
20151024 16:31:59< shadowm> Ageless Era also has a few units which declare explicit movement cost/defense on rails for no obvious reason: http://pastebin.com/0CRi7kjh  (But it's Ageless, so who really cares.)
20151024 16:32:55< shadowm> That's all I could find on the 1.12 server, I searched for just "rails" and then hand-picked relevant matches from the output.
20151024 16:33:18< shadowm> (i.e. to make sure to catch macro substitutions etc.)
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20151024 16:38:58< Ravana_> defense is relevant there, some people use maps that have rails on unwalkable
20151024 16:39:59< Ravana_> however it happens rarely enough that I have not bothered adding it to units that didn't have rails value before
20151024 16:41:58< shadowm> Rails on unwalkable.
20151024 16:42:42< shadowm> Are people literally throwing rails on lava and expecting that to visually work?
20151024 16:43:19< Ravana_> not sure about lava, but for simple chasms I have seen it several times
20151024 16:43:42< shadowm> "Everyone aboard the lava express! Keep your head inside at all times and don't question the physics of this route."
20151024 16:44:07< celticminstrel> What about rails on cave wall? :P
20151024 16:44:13< shadowm> Oh well, if you draw rails on chasms then there's something seriously wrong with you.
20151024 16:45:20< shadowm> I guess rails going through walls could serve as a symbolic representation of a secret passage, but it'll look like crap in practice due to the wall-to-not-wall transitions.
20151024 16:48:40< shadowm> http://i.imgur.com/z52OxlL.png 
20151024 16:49:26< shadowm> Neither of them looks objectively bad, but I'd certainly not allow them in a mainline-quality map until we have appropriate rules and/or bridge rail terrains.
20151024 16:50:14< celticminstrel> They all look okay, but yeah, having bridges and tunnels would make them a lot better.
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20151024 16:51:36< shadowm> Also, I've always been disappointed that rails on chasm edges don't get a broken segment transition like e.g. stone bridges.
20151024 16:52:06< shadowm> Or unconnected rails on chasm in general, I guess.
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20151024 16:53:42< shadowm> http://i.imgur.com/hKzPYKd.png -- I wish we had a terrain graphics wishlist thread.
20151024 16:56:09< vultraz> we need the rails with the wooden supports of the plank bridge
20151024 16:57:28< shadowm> Actually, we could franken that with nothing but WML.
20151024 16:57:41< vultraz> oh?
20151024 16:58:19< shadowm> Probably. I'm just speculating here because I don't know if their respective layering rules could conflict.
20151024 16:58:59< shadowm> But visually, it'd work if the plank bridge graphics were layered below the rails. They have pretty much the same dimensions, too.
20151024 16:59:44< shadowm> It'd also work with stone bridges as well.
20151024 17:00:05< vultraz> plank bridge makes more sense
20151024 17:00:15< shadowm> I mean the actual artificial stone bridges, not the natural arc bridges.
20151024 17:00:26< vultraz> still
20151024 17:00:26< shadowm> I disagree, both make sense depending on the context.
20151024 17:01:47< shadowm> You can have either a rough temporary or barely used railway on planks, or a more elaborate permanent railway on stone that's part of a sophisticated transport system.
20151024 17:02:54< vultraz> eh, true
20151024 17:05:22< shadowm> But until then wheeeee floating rails.
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20151024 17:28:57< zookeeper> i think something would need to be shifted by a few pixels for the plank bridge to work underneath rails; the rails are a bit off to one side of the bridge otherwise
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20151024 21:14:24< zookeeper> celticminstrel, the point is that a mine cart unit would treat the rails as rails terrain, not as a rails-on-something-else alias terrain (except if it technically would)
20151024 21:18:35< zookeeper> so in the case of such a unit, the rails need to be listed, but for other units, not so much. i don't think there's any ways to show that "this terrain usually doesn't do anything but there might be units it affects"
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20151024 22:32:05< wedge009> Wow, rails is so much more complicated than I thought it would be.
20151024 22:53:37< shadowm> That must we why back in the 80s we decided railways are obsolete and tore down nearly all of them.
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20151024 23:02:12< celticminstrel> Railways aren't obsolete.
20151024 23:02:46< shadowm> In your country, perhaps.
20151024 23:02:48< celticminstrel> If they were obsolete, I don't think people would've bothered developing the high-speed trains.
20151024 23:03:00< celticminstrel> I'm not really talking about my country.
20151024 23:03:13< celticminstrel> I don't live in Europe.
20151024 23:03:20< shadowm> I meant we as in Chile, not the rest of the world.
20151024 23:03:44< celticminstrel> Really?
20151024 23:03:49< shadowm> Yes,
20151024 23:03:56< celticminstrel> Interesting.
20151024 23:04:20< celticminstrel> I don't know much about Chile. Maybe there's other reasons.
20151024 23:04:39< celticminstrel> They're certainly very important in Europe and some other places.
20151024 23:04:59< shadowm> It really was mostly the outcome of a series of accidents, bad press, an economic crisis, and a general lack of investors.
20151024 23:06:08< celticminstrel> Ah.
20151024 23:07:21< ancestral> shadowm: The US tore up almost all streetcar tracks ~60 years ago
20151024 23:07:36< celticminstrel> But streetcars aren't quite the same as railways.
20151024 23:07:59< ancestral> I suppose. Our railways are, of course, underfunded.
20151024 23:08:13< celticminstrel> It's probably the same here.
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20151024 23:55:01< shadowm> 03:57:08 <ancestral> https://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2015/10/23/mozilla-launches-open-source-support-program/
20151024 23:55:45< shadowm> Too bad Wesnoth isn't Web-related software of critical importance to Mozilla. :p
20151024 23:55:57< ancestral> inorite
--- Log closed Sun Oct 25 00:00:12 2015